Imperial Diet

[econ21]

[OOC] This thread is for players in the King of the Romans PBM to post in character public deliberations in the Imperial Diet. All out of character debate should be conducted in the OOC thread.

The Diet has two main functions: to elect a Chancellor, who manage the Empire, and to pass Edicts that will direct the Chancellor.

The Diet will be chaired by Kaiser Heinrich (GeneralHankerchief) or, in his absence, by his son, Prinz Henry (econ21).

Edicts need to be formally proposed as follows:

Edict 1.1This House directs the Chancellor to occupy Hamburg.

where 1.1 refers to the first proposed edict of the first session of the Diet.

Edicts need two seconders (who should explicitly use the word "second" when supporting a motion) before they can be put to the vote. Where edicts conflict, the one with more votes takes precedence.

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Summary of Edicts proposed in Fifth Session of Diet

(Current up to post #536)

5.1 We should seek allies in England and Russia. This will force our enemies to a two front war if they dare attack us or our ally, especially as we currently do not share borders with these nations. At the same time, the alliances should only be decided if they shall pay us tribute for it, for we are the more superior nation. (aim for barely accepted)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, 6th Elector of Bavaria

5.2 We need to move out all superfluous troops out from the heartland and leave just enough there to keep public order. These troops should be used to reinforce our borders and fronts.
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Steward Maximillian Mandorf, Duke Leopold

5.3 The elimination of Milan
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, 2nd Elector of Austria

5.4 Driving Venice back to at least Ragusa, leaving them with this region and Iraklion at the most
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Duke Otto

5.5 Attempt to make the Poles our vassals (without spending more than map info and 5000 florins)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia

5.6 Attempt to make Milan our vassals (without spending more than map info and 5000 florins)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia

5.7 The training of additional clergy to root out heresy and allow more of our cardinals into the college.
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

5.8 Training of at least 2 good assassins to take care of high profile political targets
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Jonas von Mahren; Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.9 Reich will start offensive against Poland by taking Magdeburg and continuing the offensive untill either Poland sues for peace or Papal warning of excommunication is given.
Proposed: Duke Dietrich von Saxony
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.10 Holy Roman Empire suggests an alliance to Hungary.
Proposed: Duke Dietrich von Saxony
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.11:Sigismund der Brav is to be sent against the French armies invading Burgundy. After that he shall proceed to conquer France until a Papal warning is given. Sigismund alone shall be sent against the French, as the other generals are needed in Italy and Poland.
Proposed: Count Sigismund der Brav
Withdrawn

Edict 5.12: The Empire is to adopt a defensive posture in the west in an attempt to lead to the excommunication of France. When France is excommunicated, the posture is to switch to an offensive one - aiming at Rheims and then Paris.
Proposed: Prinz Henry
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.13: All Milanese forces remaining in Italy are to be destroyed.
Proposed: Count Otto von Kassel
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Prinz Henry

5.14 If England does not accept an Alliance on reasonable terms that favor us, we ally with Scotland instead, of course only if they are more reasonable than the English.
Proposed: 5th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, Steward Maximillan Mandorf

Edict 5.15: The large Milanese army outside Florence will be destroyed. After this is accomplished, we will seek to establish a ceasefire with Milan, so long as one can be obtained without cost to the Reich.
Proposed: Steward Maximillian Mandorf
Seconded: Duke Leopold, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.16: The nobility of our foes are subject to assassination.
Proposed: 4th Elector of Bavaria
Seconded: Emperor Heinrich; 5th elector of Swabia

Edict 5.17: Any aggression via the Papacy towards the Reich will result in an offensive against Rome via our field armies and the Pope will be subject to the proposed Edict 5.16.
Proposed: 4th Elector of Bavaria
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.18 - Every city and castle of all levels in the Empire are to have built at least 1 type of Economic help in that city, in 5 years limit
Proposed: Jobst von Salza
Seconded: Jonas von Mahren

Edict 5.19: All agent training is to be suspended in order to cut back on royal spending
Proposed: 4th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Duke Leopold

Edict 5.20: All cities with access to the sea must build the needed facilities to encourage and boost commerce.
Proposed: Jonas von Mahren
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria; Count Sigismund

Edict 5.21: The Reich will contact those nations with whom we are not at war, and have no direct conflicts of interests with, and attempt to improve our diplomatic relationships, with florins if necessary.
Proposed: Jonas von Mahren
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.22 we send diplomates to gather good relations with other nations... short of the spending of Florines on them giving money to peoples when we need it is not a wise decision...
Proposed: 6th Elector of Bavaria

Edict 5.23: during the term of the next chanceler... the reich sizes Magdeburg and/or Bresalu... to provide a buffer zone and future launch sites for invasion agianst Poland
Proposed: 5th Elector of Austria
Seconded: Duke Leopold, 5th Elector of Swabia

Edict 5.24: The future Chancellor will avoid excommunication by Pope Gregory by following Papal cease and desist orders to the letter.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.25: Duke Leopold is to be put at the head of an army large enough to seize and hold Zagreb.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.26: If Venice has not fallen until the events of Edict 5.25 have passed Duke Leopold is to be given enough men to assault and conquer the city of Venice.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.27: The spy Sifridus von Swabia is to be sent to the vicinity of Budapest. If he can infiltrate the city without a considerable risk for his life he should do so. Otherwise it will suffice he is active in the countryside surrounding Budapest.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: 5th Elector of Swabia, Maximillian Mandorf

Edict 5.28: To prevent Hungarian aggression against the Austrian capital Vienna it's garrison has to kept at a minimum of six units, capable of defending the city.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.29: The chancellor shall endeavor to send emissaries (without needing to train new ones) to contact other nations we have no contacts with to obtain alliances, and trade rights. Our payment shall be no more than map information and he shall aim to make all contacts pay appropriately for spending our time and efforts on them.
Proposed: 5th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.30: As a demonstration of the price of betrayal and to send a message to all of Europe that the Reich will not be defied, when the city of Venice is taken the populace will be exterminated.
Proposed: Count Otto
Seconded: Duke Leopold; 5th Elector of Swabia

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:
1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.
Proposed: Steward Maximillan Mandorf
Seconded: Count Fredericus von Hamburg; Duke Dietrich von Saxony

Charter Ammendment 5.2 (revised): Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.
Proposed: Prinz Henry
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Count Otto von Kassel

Charter Amendment 5.3: This Amendment revises several Game Rules to keep them updated and prevent future confusions. The following Rules are revised as listed.


All lines with strikethroughs will be permanently removed.

Rule 2.4 is revised to state: 2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

Rule 3.7 is revised to state: 3.7 Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

Rule 5.2 is revised to state: Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

Rule 6.4 will have the following words deleted from it “get a permanent +1 influence and”

Rule 6.6 is revised to state: 6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Proposed: Steward Mandorf
Seconded: Prinz Henry; Duke Leopold
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Prinz Henry: Pray, silence, my Lords, for the opening of the first session of the Imperial Diet! There will be a three day period of debate for the proposing and seconding of edicts. After that, there will be a 24 hour period of voting (starting Thursday 6pm UK time).

Normally, there will be also be an election of Chancellor. However, this time, I believe my father, Kaiser Heinrich, wishes to exercise his right to assume the office. We eagerly await a speech from him, setting out his plan for the Empire, so as to frame our debates.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Thank you Prinz Henry, you are correct to assume that I will exercise my right as Emperor to personally take command of the Holy Roman Empire for a ten-year period as Chancellor. Once my reign has ended, we shall of course hold our normal elections for Chancellor, but that is a long time away. The matters to discuss are the ones of the present.

We need land, people. The four Dukes have told me so, and who am I to not satisfy my subjects? There are several independent cities around us, such as Hamburg, Florence, Stettin, and Prague, to name a few. It would be mutually beneficial to them as well as us for them to be placed under the benevolent rule of the Holy Roman Empire.

I propose (with the Diet's approval, of course) that my reign be one of expansion. Once these cities are under control, then the people of all the world shall fear the Empire once again!

Special emphasis must be placed on the capture of Florence. For too long have Rome and her Italian allies thumbed their noses at us. An unstoppable army, commanded by the Kaiser himself, conquering a city that close to Rome will make the Pope rightfully shudder at our power.

Our conquest of the independent settlements shall satisfy our financial needs, but I will be sending diplomats far and wide to secure trade rights with all the world. In addition, I have heard that our merchants wish to go into foreign lands in order to take control of resources and sell them to our people. This, if properly implanted, will significantly boost our treasury, which will be a boon for future building projects.

I shall propose a series of edicts shortly, but do not want this Diet bored to death by the sound of their Emperor's voice. Let someone else take the floor. I hereby declare this session of the Diet... open. *bangs gavel*

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Here, here! God save the Kaiser! Long live the King of the Romans!

I am delighted to support my father's plan to bring the rebellious cities around us into the warm embrace of Empire. As well as Florence, I would advocate prioritising the occupation of Hamburg. I fear if we are slow, the Danes may steal it from us. I fear no man, but the Danes have terrorised Europe for several hundred years. We must not let them expand south or the consequences may be grave for our Empire.

I would also urge the Dukes and Stewards to plan the development of their settlements for coming period. Cities should consider developing barracks to house militia at no extra cost. For Staufen, I believe key priorities are a good road network, for rapid movement of troops and merchandise, and the development of farms to foster both economic and population growth. I will set out these priorities more explicitly before this session of the Diet closes on Friday and urge the other Dukes to do likewise for their realms.

One final matter - I believe good relations with the Papacy will be crucial to our success. I propose:

Edict 1.1: The Empire will send a diplomat to Rome, to establish there a permanent residence. He will reguarly gift florins to the Papacy to allow it to carry out its holy work and, incidentally, strengthen our relations with the Vatican.

Noble lords, the Pope's word carries great weight in the Councils of Europe and indeed in the streets of our cities - we would defy him at our peril. We cannot risk being a pariah among the faithful. Indeed, such is the religious fervour of the people of Christendom, I believe we may be able to mobilise it to smite our godless enemies. The Muslims have recently taken Jerusalem. This is a dark time for the people of God. We have set ourselves the goal of restoring Jerusalem to our Holy Roman Empire. If we have the backing of the Pope, all the great Christian nations of Europe may lend support to us in this quest.

[Ignoramus]

OOC: Don't you mean edict, econ?

Swabian Elector: The Kaiser is right! Recent rebellions have weakened the Empire; we must reconquer these lost lands.

I propose that the castle of Metz be taken with all speed. We cannot allow the Burgundians' rebellion to go unpunished. I say that we march against them immediately. For, if the French were to seize this most valuable stronghold, who knows what havoc they could do? I depise the despicable French who are to despised most of all. The weak French kings cannot rule Paris itself let alone France, but we should not give these weaklings even the sniff of a chance to seize a valuable fotress on our borders.

As to whose responsibilty its capture is assigned, I say that Swabia should undertake this noble task.

Edict 1.2: The Empire shall send an army to capture the castle at Metz within 5 turns to establish a strong border with the Kingdom of France.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich turns to face the Swabian side of the diet. Don't you think you're being a bit hasty? With William currently gifting the French with headache after headache thanks to his conquest of England, I think such a swift conquest of Metz may be unmerited, and place other sections of the Empire at peril. We have strong enemies all around, and focusing too hastily on one section of the empire places us all at risk.

I've thought much of the current situation, our standing with the Pope, and what may be done to bring us all into greatter prosperity. In that respect I propose the following edicts for review by the diet.

The Danes have harried and hassled Europe over the past centuries and proven their worth as warriors and raiders, but have recently come to a stall. Their current king, I believe, has come into some amount of wisdom in his years and may be keen to alter Denmark's attitude towards the rest of the world. But there is no guarantee that he will be able to control all men of influence in his still somewhat barbaric nation. In that respect, I propose the following.

Edict 1.3 - The House of Franconia instructs the chancellor to immediately besiege Hamburg with the army north of Frankfurt. I, Dietrich von Saxony could arrive to lead the army within 4 years time (2 turns), to ensure the success of our endeavours.

I will not disappoint, nor will the results of this conquest. Hamburg will provide us with a port in the north, block the more zealous Danes from southern expansion, and, if they cannot be controlled, at the very least provide us with a forward, easily defensive position against their aggressions. It also opens us up to the possibility of later deciding what to do with the Germans of Magdeburg and Stettin. Both cities worth bringing into the Imperial fold.

To the south, we have the issue of Bologne and the Italian city states. Kaiser Heinrich is currently in Bologne but I fear he may shortly become seen as an unwanted German guest in a land of Italian houses. In that respect, I feel it would benefit us to secure, at least for now, peaceful relations with the city state of Venice. Lieing directly between Bologne and the Duchy of Austria, Venice will be pivotal in the safety of the Kaiser himself. Once we can cement our standing with Venice, Florence becomes a viable option for conquest, more properly educating the neighboring would-be Italian powers to the level of German strength and authority. Therefore.

Edict 1.4 - - The House of Franconia instructs that a diplomat be trained and sent to secure both trade rights and an alliance with the city state of Venice.

The Kaiser's safety rests on this alliance. As Venice is powerful, and were they to bring up arms against him in Bologne, the rest of Italy would surely follow suit. They may be independant of each other, but an Italian is an Italian, they all claim the same lineage and they all jealously covet the same resources, antagonize one and you antagonize his neighbor.

Not far north of Italy lie the hereditary lands of the House of Austria and the House of Bavaria. Both comprised of noble and honest men, and both gifted with strong natural resources. But in natural strength comes outside jealousy, outside defiance.

Bavaria, in particular, lies in the heart of our Holy Roman Empire , but even so is taunted with the existance of the independant Czechs in Bohemia on their border. Eventually these people will have to be taught that independance is not something that should be used as a taunting gesture towards your betters. I suggest then, that the following be done.

Edict 1.5 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to scout out the lands of Bohemia, and to infiltrate their city with our spies. If possible, its siege should begin before the next meeting of this diet.

Yet further east comes the question of Austrian protection. While the Danube provides us a strong natural defence against invaders, Vien still lies significantly outside the reach of any swift reinforcements from the Imperial heartlands. It will, therefore, be important to establish some manner of keeping a closer watch on our Hungarian neighbors in the east, so that the river becomes our watchman, and not our own limitation. We must also be careful that we are not blind to the actions of Venice or the Byzantines in the south. In that respect, I propose the following.

Edict 1.6 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to establish watchtowers along the Danube near the border with Hungary, and near Austria's southern border.

However, we must not forget that the west is also an integral part of this Empire, and I hope my earlier comments of caution have not shut the ears of the House of Swabia to my proposals. I realise the importance of Metz to the Empire and to keeping those wretched French dogs at bay, but I fear only that your proposal is not flexible enough to allow the Chancellor the potential leeway he may need to ensure a proper defence of Metz after it is taken. Being so swift in taking it before the French could instead place us in a weakened position against a large and fresh French army. Though I do support the initial cause. So I make the following edict available for the diets discussion.

Edict 1.7 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to prepare a force capable of taking Metz by the end of his term.

After Metz has been secured, we can give more thought to solidifying our border with the Italians by capturing Bern.

At the last, I must reiterate that I am all in favor of the Kaiser's proposal of expansion for the safety and strength of the Empire. But we must not forget that expanding too quickly leaves us weakened at home, and we must be careful in our early calculations, so as not to stretch ourselves thin. There are many people all around us that may not be as peaceful or trustworthy as we desire. Until we can afford to swiftly field the vast armies required to put such treacherous dogs to the sword, we must be vigilant and cautious. The conquest of Hamburg, Prague, and Metz by the end of the Kaiser's term as Chancellor and the parallel strengthening of the rest of the Empire during this process will provide us with the building blocks we'll need to turn the Empire into the leading power of Europe, and the leader of all Christendom.

Ah, and, Kaiser Heinrich, if you will, next time you see your lovely daughter, Princess Agnes, extend her my greetings and good tidings. I hope her stay in Bavaria is treating her well. Her presence in the capital is sorely missed.

Dietrich sits, and amidst the diets debate talks quietly over things with the other electors of Franconia.

[Warluster]

Swabian Elector- I propose that we should take an settlement for the good doing of our EMpire
Edict 1.8-We take Antwerp in 15 turns
OOC-Is that hwo ya do it?

[flyd]

I hereby second Edicts 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7.

I particularly urge everyone to support Edict 1.3. It is essential that the Empire gains access to the northern sea, particularly for the purposes of trade by sea.

The Second Elector of Franconia.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Ah, noble electors, it is good to see you all present and contributing! It is the people like you that make empires, and even Republics of old, so strong and powerful! I am also glad to see good healthy discussion within and between houses. It is only as a united Empire shall we be feared and revered.

I shall now present my opinions on the edicts that have been proposed so far:

Edict 1.1: Yes, I suppose that for now we can strengthen Papal relations. My son, always the diplomatic one. I second this edict.

Edict 1.2: Swabia, it is indeed important that Metz be captured. However, do not place this Kaiser on such a schedule! Metz will be taken, but I would prefer a larger window in which to do it. I cannot second this edict unless it is amended.

Edict 1.3: I agree, Hamburg is of special importance. I second this edict.

Edict 1.4: Do not think, Dietrich, that this Kaiser has no fight in him! While I admire your concern for my safety, the Empire does not need to align with certain nations just to ensure it. No, I do not trust Venice. They would stab us in the back as soon as the oppurtunity was presented. I would prefer a simple exchange of trade rights and a watchful eye on the Venetians. If we must align with an Italian people, I would prefer it be Sicily, or Milan. I cannot second this edict.

Edict 1.5: I believe one of our spies is currently in position to infiltrate Prague. It should be an easy job for him, and we could use the territory. I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.6: The foreign power that Vienna needs to keep an eye on is Venice, not Poland. Nevertheless, it is always good to have an extra pair of eyes. I hereby second this edict, as well as promise to place watchtowers on the southern border of the province as well.

Edict 1.7: Ah, now this is a timeline that I can work with! Yes, hopefully Metz will have already been incorporated into the Empire by the time my term as Chancellor is up. Seconded.

Edict 1.8: A noble thought, Swabia, but Antwerp brings us too close to England and France, and that is not a war that we want to get involved in, at least not yet. I do not second this edict, but propose that we re-examine it once our current borders are closer to Antwerp.

...*cough* And yes, Dietrich, I shall pass along your message to Agnes.

[Ignoramus]

Swabian Elector: In deference to our Kaiser's comments, I shall withdraw Edict 1.2. Instead, I shall support Edict 1.7 provided that Metz is captured by a Swabian army and is to be incorporated into Swabia.

As for my humble opinion on the afore tabled edicts:

Edict 1.1: It is indeed good that we should not be hostile to His Holiness, however, why should we put ourselves under Rome's yoke? I fear that our ensuring wars may arouse the ire of His Holiness, so I advise that the diplomat is not too liberal in his gifts of Florins to the Papal coffers. I second this edict.

Edict 1.2: I shall withdraw this edict.

Edict 1.3: Hamburg is an important stronghold, enabling us to protect ourselves from the Danes to the north. I second this edict.

Edict 1.4: While I acknowlege your good intentions, I cannot agree to an alliance with those despicable traitors, otherwise known as Venetians. They have, by their guile, robbed and betrayed many a king or emperor, and only a dummkopf would put any faith in them.

Edict 1.5: I agree, what use are spies if they do not spy? I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.6: I do agree to constructing watch-towers near our borders with the Hungarians. We must not allow those Magyars plunder us as they did last century. I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.7: I have been swayed by the wisdom of Dietrich von Saxony. I hereby second this edict on the condition that Swabia leads the army and after its capture Metz is annexed to the lands of Swabia.

Edict 1.8: It is, as our gut Kaiser says, a noble enterprise, however, we have not the means of dealing with the pikemen of Flanders. And to repeat what our Kaiser has said, the Kingdoms of England and France would see this actions as an act of hostility towards them.

[DMu]

This elector wishes to present himself before the diet.
Nameless Elector: Salve Caesar! Too long have the House of Austria remained silent. I wish to bring the following vital necessities to the Diet's attention.

Edict 1.9: Trade in Austria is stagnant. We must build a road network at Vienna.

Edict 1.10: We must recruit spies to infiltrate Prague. The Bohemians should be brought to heel by Turn 9.

Edict 2.11: Our Duke, Leopold would like to ask for the hand of the Imperial Princess. (aside: Thanks for the money, Duke. I live to serve.)

Edict 2.12: Austria needs protection. This elector asks that the city of Vienna be protected by recruiting more than 4 companies of young men of military age.

Dutifully submits this official document to the speaker of the diet

Document says:

Edict 1.1: Seconded
Edict 1.2: Nay
Edict 1.3: Seconded
Edict 1.4: Seconded
Edict 1.5: Seconded
Edict 1.6: Seconded
Edict 1.7: Nay
Edict 1.8: Seconded

Vale Caesar!
respectfully steps aside.

[flyd]

I believe that the Roman Style for numbering edicts dictates that all edicts in the first session of the diet should start with the number 1, that is the last two edicts proposed should be numbered 1.11 and 1.12, with the number 2 being reserved for the second session.

I do believe that Edict 2.11 is improper. Is it not the Emperor's prerogative to decide whom his own daughter will marry? Is that not the prerogative of any father? How is it proper that this should be decided by the Diet, then? I find that this Edict, proposed by Austria, constitutes a great insult to the Emperor. And I have not yet even gotten to pointing out that Leopold is the son the Emperor... by blood. Just what is going on in Austria?

[TinCow]

I, Maximillian Mandorf, Steward of Bavaria, agree with the Swabians that it is important that we establish a firm barrier to prevent French aggression against our territories. Yet we must not ignore the threats posed by other nations, most particularly the aggressive Papal lapdogs to our south. Milan, Venice, and Sicily may choose to fight amongst themselves, but it is certain that at least one, if not all of them, will turn on us in quick order.

We must maintain power in Northern Italy both for the purposes of trade and to allow us better control over the Papal throne. The Pope must learn that he cannot continue to ignore the right of the Kaiser to appoint the most worthy priests to the position! It is the proper order as prescribed by God and must be restored!

In order to ensure the influence of the Empire in Italy, we must first secure and strengthen the Alpine provinces to provide for defense against any trechery and a springboard for any attacks. You all know that Bern is the first and most vital step in such a plan.

Yet, I am not an ignorant or unreasonable man. We are all grasping at straws in all directions. Bern is an important province, but its control can perhaps be delayed for a short while until other actions have been fulfilled. I will support provisions giving Metz priority and ceding control of this territory to Swabia, but Bavaria must be compensated in return. I will vote for such provisions, but only if my Swabian colleagues will support the following edict:

Edict 1.13 - When Bern is conquered, it shall become the property of the House of Bavaria. This Edict will remain in effect until the Holy Roman Empire conquers Bern.

[DMu]

Unnamed Austrian elector:

I ask for your attention, Kaiser, Prinz, and fellow electors:

I hereby withdraw edict 1.11 (formerly 2.11) (aside: powerful forces are arrayed against you, my Duke. Be weary. I tried my best :oops: )

respectfully hand over the following official doc:
it reads

edict 1.13: seconded

[flyd]

I should point out that the laws clearly state that it is within the Emperor's power to give settlements to one of the Houses (section 5.3). I see no reason why he would need to follow Bavaria's Edict 1.13, or any suggestion from Swabia regarding Metz. Surely, requests to the Emperor can be made, but this seems far from the proper way to do it. Does no house besides Franconia respect the position of the Emperor?

[Warluster]

I second edict 1.13.

it is an nescarry Area to control, it is sonewhat a radar for Denmark if they capture, and Denmark is intent on the descruction of this grea tEmpire.

if we control it then it is a good spot for future invasions of Denmark,Poland or Antwerp. But I also propse we extend the time limit of the edict

[pevergreen]

As but a lowly member of the noble House of Austria, I do not know much about what enemies we shall encounter, therefore I propose
Edict 1.14 - Train a diplomat and send him east, to create friendly policies with Poland and Hungary.

Trade at first with these Kingdoms, until we of Austria can claim their settlements, in the name of the Empire!

I would Second Edict 1.9 but I am under the impression the Governer instructs what shall be built, not the Diet.

[OverKnight]

Third Elector of Bavaria:

Greeting Lords and Electors of the Empire, I *second edict 1.13*. This is an excellent suggestion. The Alps form a formidable natural barrier to our potential enemies to the south, the treacherous Italian merchant states.

Second Elector of Swabia, I fear you are confused, Bern would allow us to monitor the actions and defend the Alpine passes against Milan and France, not the Danes. Perhaps you're thinking of Hamburg? Your support for the edict is still gratifying.

I admit the disposition of territories is of course the domain of the Kaiser, but the integration of Bern into the Bavarian duchy would allow for geographic continuity and easy defense due to Bern's proximity to our recruitment centers.

I fear war with either the Venetians or Milan will come shortly milords. They cast covetous eyes on our Italian province. Bologna is vulnerable due to it's lack of a connection to the rest of the Empire. To think, if we wished to move troops into or out of the province we would have to ask permission, permission!, of those oily, usurious merchants! Bah! If we are to seek an alliance with one them it should be Milan, they do not straddle our lines of communications like the Doge and his ilk do.

I support edict 1.1, it is already seconded and it is a good idea. I am a Christian and a German, we need to improve our relations with Rome, they are very low at this point. If we fall too far in the Pope's disfavor it will embolden our enemies to strike, for they will not fear his disapproval. I am not saying we should bend the knee in all matters, but we should respect the power he holds.

The 3rd Elector of Swabia has proposed that we build roads in Vienna. I would go a step farther and propose:

*edict 1.14*: Roads should be present in all current provinces of the Empire by the year 1100 (20 years/10 turns)

Our armies will be needed on many fronts and we are an inland Empire. We need roads to quickly dispatch an army from one area of the Empire to another. Trade will also benefit.

I support the expansion of the Empire in general. Seizing Hamburg, in addition to Bern, Metz, and Prague is a good idea. It might antagonize the Danes, or they might turn north. We shall see. In expanding, however, we should set our sights on strong frontiers that have choke points we can defend, the Alps in the south, Hamburg and the sea to the north, and the Rhine to the west. The east, well, there is the Danube, but that is not ideal.
I hope the Kaiser will keep this in mind.

[OverKnight]

OOC: Change mine to 1.15, I was in the middle of writing when Swordsmaster's post went up. And for some wonky reason I can't type in bold so I had to substitute asterisks, my apologies. It might be because I'm using the web browser at work.

[pevergreen]

My dear Bavarian friend, I think you are mistaken with your eagerness to ask Milan for an alliance. Milan and Venice are both alike, with qualities akin to each other. For if we take Florence, as we should, we will have two borders with Milan, and as they seem have more cities in northern italy than Venice, it would seem Venice is the weaker city state in Northern Italy.
In realisation of Milan's power to extend through the weak and divided France, I put foward another Edict to the Diet.

Edict 1.16 Recruit and send a spy to watch over Milan's progression.

This will allow us to judge when they are aggrivating their neighbours and give us time to strike.
(OOC: I really hate Milan)

[OverKnight]

Third Elector of Bavaria:

I realize a choice between Milan and Venice is like choosing between being drawn and quartered or the rack, but it is a choice, in the short term, we must make. Belive me, I wish the fires of Heaven would destroy them both.

If we *have* to ally with one, Milan, due to geography, is slightly less odious.

[Ituralde]

With an audible cough Conrad von Schüsselen rises from his seat in the Imperial Diet. His stern gaze encompasses the assembled nobles before he raises his voice to speak. He speaks not loudly and with a rough edge to his voice but still clear enough to be understood by anyone in the Diet.

Mein Kaiser, Dukes, fellow electors!

As you all know I recently followed our beloved Emperor into the pit of the lion that is Appenin peninsula nowadays. Those Langobard dogs think they can do as they like and have already gained acceptance by the wiry fool posing as god's representative in Rome. The Duchy of Milan the 'free' City of Venice and even the marauding Norman invaders of Sicily all cower behind their alleged faith to gain protection from the Pope who suddenly disapproves of Catholics fighting against each other now that he sees his powers in Italy dwindling and his chances to increase the size of God's kingdom on earth slimming.

I'm surprised no other elector has picked up on wise Emperor Heinrichs advice to expand in Italy also. It is of utmost importance that we do not tolerate the insolence by the Italian Duchies declaring their 'independence'. All of Italy will have to be brought back into the fold in due time, but for now I propose the following actions:

Edict 1.17: I firmly believe that the tentative powers the Duke of Milan has tried to establish over some Italian Cities can not be supported by the Reich. All diplomatic incursion with those money-loving dogs should be kept to a minimum. No requests for Trade rights, Maps or any other transactions shall meet our approval!

*cough* *cough* The elector raises a silk handkerchief to his mouth to stop a coughing fit that has overcome him as he has gotten more and more enraged during his speech against Milan. Small specks of blood can be seen as he wipes them from his mouth and puts the handkerchief back up his sleeve.
Once again composed and calm, he continues.

Edict 1.18: As a demonstration of our strength in Italy we should show them our power and seize the city of Florence. Its riches would make a fine addition to the Imperial coffers and show the Italians that the Empire will not sit by idly while the try to gain supremacy. Florence is as yet unalligned and will not be protected by the Pope, making it an ideal target.
As an afterthought, I'd like Florence to be assigned to the House of Austria, as such requests have become popular within the Diet, haven't they?

I will also second Edict 1.4. While I despise the Italians and their so-called 'freedom' as much as anyone here we can not afford a costly three-way war on the Apenin peninsular. An alliance with Venice would give us some security and buy us enough time to deal with the Milanese the Normans and finally Venice itself.

I see all other important edicts have already been seconded by a sufficient number.

Conrad von Schüsselen looks quite desinterested during his last sentence and finally sits back down.

[pevergreen]

Conrad, my good man, has the right idea men!

I second both Edicts he hath proposed.

Those vile Milanese should but taste the wrath of my blade, if my house were to expand southwards.

[Warluster]

ah, you are right Third Elector of Bavaria, I was in fact thinking of Hamburg, my apologys

[Warluster]

I also second the edicts you have put forward Second Elector Of Austria.
I have to agree that the Mialnese will somehow betray us, the Veneatians are more trustworthy, in some cases

[SwordsMaster]

The fourth Kurfurst of Bavaria waits for silence. He stands among the nobles staring above the heads of the council.


The House of Bavaria seconds the choice of supporting Venice over Milan, and therefore edict 1.4.

I also support the thought of conquering Florence to limit the expansion of other italian factions. But, oh Kaiser, does it not make more sense to grant the italian lands to the House of Bavaria in order to mantain cohesion and better administer them?

Edict 1.18 is supported.

[Lucjan]

Raising a hand quietly and standing, Dietrich interrupts a slow murmur of arguements and inquiries surrounding the territorial disputes between the southern duchies.

Please, if everybody may take a moment to review the Imperial charter as it stands.

And I quote, section 4.3.
The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest).

Let us then backtrack to section 3.9.
The Imperial Diet is presided over by the Kaiser. His rulings are final.

Dietrich looks about the room, casting a nod to his fellow Franconian electors before clearing his throat and beginning again. This time in a rather tenuous tone.

It is, from my interpretation, that these are powers given solely to the Kaiser's will, and therefore not something that can be decided by the vote of the diet. While it is in every Ducal House's interest to pass "suggestions" along to the Kaiser in regards to the distribution of the Empire's lands, we must not forget that the Empire is first and foremost subject to the Kaiser's decisions. We exist to serve, and should not be so swift to forget that ours is a freedom that can easily be taken away. To suggest through the passing of such edicts that the diet has the power to encroach on the Kaiser's ability to make the best choices for the Empire is to insinuate that some positions of power are not fully understood.

I am also concerned that some of you have taken the idea that the diet can pass an edict on the manner in which our honorable dukes order the arrangement of their masons' construction queies. This too is incorrect, as only the duke or count of a territory can determine, for the rest of the chancellor's reign in which said individual ruled, the order of construction for that territory.

Dietrich, trying his best to keep it a neutral remark for the whole of the diet to be more cautious and respectful in their proposals, pauses for a few seconds, turning over in his mind the proper way to put his next statement.


Many of you are young. Many of you still have some time before you're given the full chance to prove your wisdom or mettle for the good of the empire. And in that I believe that perhaps some of your errors are simple matters of youthful misunderstanding. But you will all get it soon. It's a learning experience, and I urge you all to take this oppertunity to learn well.

Dietrich looks then to some of the more senior members of the diet to deliberate on this latest issue. As some quiet discussion between House members continues with no immediate elector standing, he continues on some other matters.

In regards to Venice. I can understand some unwillingness to seek an alliance with them, let alone any Italian state. And by no means did I mean to suggest that the Kaiser is not capable of defending the lands in Italy he's so honorably taken. My only concern was that without Venice as an ally, we would be extremely hard pressed to reinforce you were the states of Italy to come down on you as a whole. You are the life blood of this Empire my lord. To lose you would be a devestating blow. Besides, with Venice being as untrustworthy as it is, we may as well take advantage of their faults early on. Let them break the alliance as the houses more knowledgeable of Italy than myself suggest they will. In that way we are given a significant enough cassus belli to wage war against them with relative impunity. Even the Pope would have a hard time explaining why we should stop aggressive action against them if they break such an alliance.

But that is as far as I will take the matter. Italy is, in fact, moreso the expertise of our southern Dukes. I simply offer my council in good faith.

In regards to the Danube, some seem to have confused the Poles with Magyars...I suggested keeping an eye on Hungary (the Magyars), who border Austria on the east Danube border and have in days not long past caused significant trouble and destruction to the countryside with their raids. The suggestion of monitoring there movements from the river is so as to assure that such things are not allowed to happen again.

But since Poland has been brought up in the discussion, I must opt towards defending these people from any aggression on our part, and insist that we establish peaceful relations with them. I've had the honor of meeting some of these people bound westward in merchant caravans, and must say that they are far from the despicable sort of men that many of our other neighbors seem to be comprised of. Sure the Poles go by somewhat of an awkward name, but in the long run their friendship would be far more beneficial to the Empire than turning them into another enemy. Trade with them could bring in valuable goods from the east and provide us with a friendly counterbalance to the potential growth of Hungary or some of the other far eastern peoples we have all heard tales of. I for one would value these people as a friend, not include them in our ever growing list of potential enemies.

In that respect, I propose Edict 1.19 - By the end of this chancellor's term, a diplomat will be dispatched to open up trade with Poland and exchange map information.

On a final note, I do believe it is also the Kaiser's, and only the Kaiser's, right to determine who his daughter shall take as a husband. I must also force myself to assume that some members of the House of Austria forget that Agnes is indeed Leopold's sister, and that such an, arrangement, would not be in the best interests of either party, let alone the esteem of the Kaiser's family.

And thank you Kaiser Heinrich for extending my message. Dietrich finally clears his throat and sits down.

[OverKnight]

The Third Elector of Bavaria, Gunther of Eichstadt (OOC:No avatar but he needed a name other than TEoB), speaks to the assembly:

There is wisdom in the Steward's words. I second edict 1.19. It is similar but more specific than edict 1.14. Though I hope our diplomat could visit Buda as well.

While I do not trust Milan I will not support 1.17. We have a claim on Milan, but we are not in the position, yet, to fulfill it. The Empire needs trade, florins for troops and buildings. We can still send an agent, edict 1.16, if needed.

I share the concern of Lord Dietrich about edict 1.18, with no land access to our Italian holdings we cannot send reinforcements without angering the Duke of Milan or the Doge. But as the Kaiser himself is on hand, it is, of course, his decision whether to take Florence or not.

Finally, as I do not wish to enter into a debate over the charter or betray my youth, I withdraw edict 1.15. It had not been seconded anyway.

Thank you milords.

[TinCow]

It is, from my interpretation, that these are powers given solely to the Kaiser's will, and therefore not something that can be decided by the vote of the diet. While it is in every Ducal House's interest to pass "suggestions" along to the Kaiser in regards to the distribution of the Empire's lands, we must not forget that the Empire is first and foremost subject to the Kaiser's decisions. We exist to serve, and should not be so swift to forget that ours is a freedom that can easily be taken away. To suggest through the passing of such edicts that the diet has the power to encroach on the Kaiser's ability to make the best choices for the Empire is to insinuate that some positions of power are not fully understood.

Dietrich, I must respectfully disagree with you on this matter. As we all surely know, the Kaiser does not have the power to exercise control over our private lands against our will. The very foundations of the Reich and the Electorate rest upon our own sovereignty within our own lands. If Hungarian troops encamp outside of Vienna and the Austrians rightfully repel them, taking a small area of only several hectares in the process, surely that land would belong to them. The Kaiser would have no more of a right to interfere in such a land matter as he would to give Vienna to the House of Swabia.

While it is wise to look to the Kaiser to resolve disputes, the matter of land distribution should bend to the will of the Houses if they can reach agreements on such matters. If no agreements can be met or if none are even proposed, then there is none better than the Kaiser to step in. However, this should not give him the power to allocate lands when the Diet is in agreement on the matter.

Furthermore, I would be concerned about such land powers being abused by future Kaisers who do not have the proven wisdom of Heinrich. By your interpretation of the laws, if the House of Swabia were to be attacked by the French and lose control of Staufen, the Kaiser could subsequently deliver it to Austria upon its recapture, even though this would be a blatant violation of Swabia's sovereignty over its own lands. While I know that the noble Heinrich would never do such a thing, we cannot trust that we will not some day find ourselves bending knee to a madman who would! We must protect our rights to our own lands now, lest our leniency be taken advantage of later.

Furthermore, I believe my interpretation is in-line with the law. If we reference the applicable legislation, we see the following:


3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final.

This legislation is unclear on exactly what the Kaiser may rule on. It is clear from other legislation that his powers in the Diet are limited, so surely his rulings do not apply to everything. As I said before, the Kaiser cannot simply cede Vienna to the House of Swabia, even if he 'rules' it so before the Diet.

So, let us look for clarification.


5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.

Ah, here we see that the Kaiser's duties specifically require him to decide on disputes of procedure that are otherwise deadlocked. This appears to be his main duty in the Diet. As such, clause 3.9 must be interpreted to reference this matter, as clause 3.9 specifically deals with the Kaiser’s powers within the Diet. If the allocation of land is outside the realm of Diet deliberations, then it is also outside the power of a ‘final’ ruling by the Kaiser. If the allocation of land is within the realm of Diet deliberations, then the Diet is free to rule on it if agreement can be reached. In addition, the Kaiser’s powers in regards to land are stated as follows:


5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

Please note the most crucial of words in the legislations. The Kaiser CAN allocate settlements. This does not mean he must nor that he always has the ability. This is a conditional statement that gives him some authority, but not absolute authority on the matter. When reading all three of these pieces of legislation together, I believe it is perfectly consistent to allow the Diet to determine for itself the disposition of land if agreements can be reached on the matter. Surely if the majority of the Diet wishes to give Metz to Swabia, there is no harm in doing so.

[Ituralde]

Conrad rises from his seat as soon as Mandorf has finished speaking raising his voice slightly to be heard, befor falling back into his usual raspy voice:

This has become a legal dispute then, gentlemen?

His gaze scans the other members of the Diet.

Up until know I had seen the requests for land from the other Houses as an advice to our Emperor and therefore insisted on it in my own proposal, lest the House of Austria miss out on an... opportunity here.
This sheds another light on the already seconded votes by us, one that should not be taken on light-heartedly. Maybe another edict is in order, deciding who has the right to bestow lands?

My personal oppinion is, that our noble Emperor does indeed have the wisdom and knowledge to bestow conquered lands to whomever he seems fit enough to rule them in his name. I know him as an honourable man who surely would pay due respect to... notions mentioned in the Diet regarding those choices however. Honour should suffice, without the hassle of legal discussion and the tearing apart of paragraphs. If we can not reach a decision based on honour within this very Diet it looks indeed grim for our Empire.

As for your fear of our heartlands, surely no one has the right to deny you or your house their hereditary lands should we be forced to reconquer them one day! Maybe even another edict to grant us our hereditary rights? I don't think so.

A small cough escapes Conrad von Schüsselens lips but he composes himself immediatelly

I would also like to second Edict 1.19.

He takes a big breath inhaling loudly, before continuing.

As to the greedy notions of our fellow Bavarian Electors, I think our Emperor is wise enough to see through their ruse. Does not the House of Bavaria already control the rich city of Nuremburg and a mighty castle at Innsbruck? Surely this should be enough to statisfy their current needs, but instead they have sunk to haggling for provinces with our Emperor... A brief fit of couging interrupts Conrad Was it not I... Was it... I... that served in Italy... Conrad von Schüsselen can no longer control his coughing a small trickle of blood collects at the corner of his mouth while the couging shakes his body. The other Electors of the House of Austria have to support him as he sinks back onto his bench.
It seems that he has finished.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Well good electors, it seems that several rules disputes have come up. As Kaiser, it is my duty to rule on these and thus, effectively determine how much power I wield in this Diet.

I shall hereby keep the power to determine which House all newly-conquered settlements belong to. This decision is made not out of desire to wrench more power for myself, but for efficiency. The people of the world and of the Empire would see us weak if I had to drag you all back to Frankfurt every time one of us conquered! Good electors, nobody would get anything done!

That said:


I promise to allocate settlements based on geographic location, as well as previous ownership of the settlement if it is taken from our hands. In addition, I shall attempt to keep the distribution of these settlements fairly even so that at all times one House is not overly large or small. I hereby swear, in front of the Diet, that you may impeach me if I break this promise.

Charter Amendment 1.1: Upon escalation to the position of Kaiser, the previous oath must be stated in front of the Diet.

The power to build in provinces fall under those of the Dukes, and not the Diet. I cannot second 1.9.

1.10 is not necessary as there is a spy currently near Prague. I plan to send him in the city and report back to me on a regular basis.

I will second 1.12 if the number of men is reduced. Currently, by your wording, you ask for five companies. I believe that with a significant watchtower system in place as well as roads, we can make due with less.

You know my position on 1.13.

As for 1.14, see my opinion on 1.9.

1.16 should not be too much of a burden. Seconded.

As for 1.17, I do not second it since we could use the money. Worry about Milan later, but for now let us build the treasury!

1.18 is unnecessary as I fully plan to conquer Florence. As a matter of fact is about the first item on my agenda.

I second 1.19.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good electors, there has been much talk about the Italian city states and whether we should ally with them. I, as Kaiser, have this to say about Italy:

They are dogs. Treacherous dogs, all of them. I do not trust a single one of their people. They seek to expand and extend their pathetic influence over our people. This must not be allowed to happen. However, since all talks still persist, I offer the following compromise:

Edict 1.20: The Holy Roman Empire is to attempt to ally with Sicily.

My reasons for this are several. First of all, we share only a small border with Sicily, compared to fairly large ones with Venice and Milan. If the Sicilians were to execute a carefully-planned betrayal, they would only be a minor annoyance, compared to the threat of Venice and Milan. You remember the old adage from the times of the Roman Republic: Do not ally with your neighbors, but your neighbors' neighbors. I believe that this perfectly sums up our situation now.

I yield the floor.

[SwordsMaster]

As a Kurfurst I will support edict 1.20 A wise decision, my emperor. It is most appropriate to take inspiration in the peoples that whose deeds have allowed us to be Rome.

[pevergreen]

I promise to allocate settlements based on geographic location, as well as previous ownership of the settlement if it is taken from our hands. In addition, I shall attempt to keep the distribution of these settlements fairly even so that at all times one House is not overly large or small. I hereby swear, in front of the Diet, that you may impeach me if I break this promise.

My noble lords, as a fleeting thought, let us presume this is a hypothetical, that the Kingdom of France and the City State of Milan have both declared war on us, and are pushing the House of Swabia backwards. If the noble and honourable House of Austria were to conquer some rebel lands to the east, therefore, having it gifted to them, via the location clause, but Swabia could be down to their last Castle, what would happen then? Would you call an emergency Diet to authorise the transference of settlements, so that the House of Swabia could continue to exist?

I seek only clarification noble friends.

Also put my name down as a Second for Edict 1.20
The unremarkable man sits back down, looking pleased with himself

[DMu]

Nameless elector from Austria submits the following:

Modification to Edict 1.12: Vienna should be protected as soon as possible (or feasible) by 1 to 2 units of missile troops (peasant archers or better).

Modification to Edict 1.9: Withdrew

Modification to Edict 1.10: The available spy in the Prague region should infiltrate the city and bring back to the Reich info on a daily basis.

Daily Voting:

Edict 1.13: Seconded
Edict 1.14: Suggest the following amendment: The diplomat should establish trade rights with Poland and Hungary, and friendly relations with only Poland. We might want to destroy Hungary later. Hence no alliance with the Huns.
Edict 1.15: Nay (only Dukes and count can suggest building queues?)
Edict 1.16: seconded
Edict 1.17: Nay
Edict 1.18: seconded
Edict 1.19: seconded
Edict 1.20: seconded

[Grande Orso]

The last Swabian Kurfurst stands up. While silent until this moment, many have noticed that he has been busy writing continously on a scroll of paper since the beginning of the gathering

*clears throat*... ahem... if I may interrupt and address the diet...

His young face and the uncertainty in his voice are proof of his lack of seniority in the diet and of experience in the field of politics

*clears throat again*... Chancellor Heinrich, Prinz Henry, most honourable members of this Imperial diet. We have almost reached the end of the second day of deliberations here in Frankfurt, and I would like to put forward a couple of procedural matters, if I may, that will ease the upcoming voting procedures.

*unrolls his scroll and squints his eyes, barely making out his own handwriting* ... Edict 1.10 proposed by the Kurfurst of the House of Austria (DMu) advocates the same actions as Edict 1.5 proposed by Dietrich von Saxony, Steward of the House of Franconia (Lucjan). I also recon that in the same fashion, Edict 1.14 proposed by the Kurfurst of the House of Austria (pevergreen) advocates almost the same actions as Edict 1.19 proposed by Dietrich von Saxony, Steward of the House of Franconia (Lucjan).
*visibly embarassed* I cannot claim to be an expert on the procedures of this institution, but I would suggest for the interested parties to consider these observations, as to make the voting procedures easier for all of us, and not to create redundancies in the edicts that this Imperial council will enact. *rolls the scroll back up*

Since most edicts proposed by this diet have already received two or more seconders, I shall not take a stand on any particular matter at the moment, but I would like to invite the people gathered here today to think about the following:
*clears throat again* Currently this diet is suggesting for the conquering of Hamburg to the North, Prague to the East, Florence in the South, Metz to the West and possibly also the settlements of Antwerp and Bern. While these are clearly honourable undertakings, I would like to warn the diet, even with my little experience in these matters of state, that these undertakings will come at the cost of numerous lives, and may leave our armies at less than full strength. Moreover, this increase in territories will make us more liable to incursions from belligerant foreigners, and, less capable to defend ourselves. While it has been said that attack is the best defense, I would encourage this diet and the Emperor to think cautiously about such aggressive expansionary policies that may leave us short in florins and weak in military power.

Thank you for your attention, and sorry for the interruption

The Kurfurst sits down, and sighs of relief for having been able to gather the courage to speak on behalf of his people in front of many experienced members of the diet

[pevergreen]

I have learnt, fellow Electors, that Prinz Henry plans to compile the proposed Edicts and their seconders, sometime tonight. With this compiled list, hopefully the empires actions can be thoguht out more wisely.

I, Lothar Von Austria, thanks the Prinz for compiling such a document.

[Ignoramus]

Swabian Elector: My fellow electors, I have noticed the enthusiasm in which many of you have put forward your proposals, however, the Diet's time is limited, so I propose the following:

Edict 1.21: Each elector is only allowed to put forward 3 edicts to the Diet. Dukes are allowed 5, while the Chancellor has no limit.

Also, my fellow electors, I propose the following:

Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.

[OverKnight]

Gunther, Third Elector of Bavaria addresses the diet:

I will be brief so that no one will propose an edict to limit me to less than three comments a session.

The elector holds for a reaction, is taken aback by the silence of the Diet, and resumes.

Ah, um. . .Elector of Swabia. . .I believe what you propose, edict 1.21, is an amendment to our charter and would require a 2/3 majority to pass. I do not see the need for it, each edict will be judged on its merit through seconding and voting. A further, and somewhat confusing, restriction is not necessary. I will not second this edict.

As for edict 1.22, I will not address this. Others wiser than I have already commented on similar requests.

Thank you milords.

[econ21]

[Prinz Henry]: I have posted a list of edicts and their seconders (see first post of this thread).

[pevergreen]

Lothar coughs quietly, hushing the Diet

My dear friends, two responses here.

I have noticed in Prinz Henry's update, that Charter Amendment 1.1 has not been seconded, does it need to be? If so, I second it.

The second proposed Charter Amendment, is also named Charter Amendment, an understandable oversight, as im sure my Prinz would have worked many hours over the scribes records to summerise this Diet.



Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.

I would like an amendment to this Edict, so it may read as follows.

Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, until the next meeting of the Imperial Diet, where it shall, upon vote, or direction Kaiser, be gifted to a house. If the Diet can not reach an agreement or the Kaiser is unwilling to give it to any particular house, it shall remain under Imperial control, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth elector of Swabia stands up and greets his fellow noblemen:

"Becouse of the importance that Metz is to securing our Western border.I would like to propose
Edict 1.23 Suggestion for passive siege on Metz.

I firmly believe that instead of building up our forces in order to capture Metz.I suggest that we will surround it swiftly with our current forces in Staufen without attempting to assault it,but rather let it starve out.This way will deny the treacherous French the option to get it before the Empire. We can build additional forces ofcourse to support the siege,but in my opinion the siege should be started as soon as possible.

Fifth Elector of Swabia

[pevergreen]

Lothar stands as soon as the Elector starts to sit, to some he seems to be fuming with anger but to those that know him, he is laughing to himself.

Surely my good friend, you could not ask for a simple amendment? That makes 3 Edicts to my count of capturing Metz. Surely this township does not hold the Holy Grail

Lothar turns around quickly stifling the laughter of his fellow Austrians

Thank you, that is all.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth elector stands up and replies. I have heard about the wierd sense of humour of Austrians before. Since Edict 1.2 was withdrawn and Edict 1.7 has different stand then ours. Though we dont think amending an edict that proposes different entirely method of action is plausible. Maybe the Austrians see it that way,but then they are also known for courting their own sisters.

Fifth elector of Swabia

[pevergreen]

You bas..The rest is stifled as the entire house of Austria has to be restrained

A few minutes later

Lothar Van Austria
You ignorant Swabians, your all the same. Proposing Edicts proposing to capture the same settlement is not doing the Empire any good!

Prinz Henry or Kaiser Heinrich, I demand this Swabian be repremanded for his comments, we must have some level of civility in this Diet.

[OverKnight]

The Third Elector of Bavaria attempts to step between the feuding parties:

Peace my lords! This is a chamber of government not a Tavern! If you don't like the edicts don't second or vote for them! Don't resort to base insults or we will accomplish nothing here.

The elector looks warily around hoping that calm will be restored.

[pevergreen]

How would you like it if a young upstart started insulting your sisters?
This is an outrage!

[Kagemusha]

Fifth elector of Swabia replyes

We are not insulting Emperors daughter. Austrians tryed to make our proposition laughable and we only responded based on the edict 2.11. made by third elector of Austria. Which in my wiev is lot more insulting towards the daughter of Emperor, then our joke about the Austrians.Austrians shouldnt start making jokes about others,if they cant stand one themselves. We will not further comment the incident and place the feud for the Emperor to judge.

Fifth Elector of Swabia

[TinCow]

I promise to allocate settlements based on geographic location, as well as previous ownership of the settlement if it is taken from our hands. In addition, I shall attempt to keep the distribution of these settlements fairly even so that at all times one House is not overly large or small. I hereby swear, in front of the Diet, that you may impeach me if I break this promise.

Charter Amendment 1.1: Upon escalation to the position of Kaiser, the previous oath must be stated in front of the Diet.

Kaiser Heinrich, I laud the sentiment behind your oath, but I am highly sceptical of its practicality. In order for what you say to work, the Reich must expand in all directions at once and at a relatively even pace. Such a policy will demand starting wars where they are not needed or wanted and risk the security of the entire realm. Is it not the wisest practice to devote the majority of our efforts to defeating one or two enemies at a time, particularly when our resources are minimal, as they are now?

Say we find ourselves at war with no nation but France. Strategy would dictate that we concentrate great efforts in subduing the French and acquiring their lands. Yet, this would lead to expansion that is only geographically contiguous with the House of Swabia. Would you then insist that wars be started with the Danes, Hungarian, and Milanese in order to create even distributions? If not, would you end up giving Paris to the House of Austria?

Mein Kaiser, I thank you for the intentions behind your oath, but I urge you to revoke it. It is a flawed creation and can only cause strife for the Reich, the very thing you seek to avoid. I also firmly oppose Charter Amendment 1.1. It is bad enough that our current wise Kaiser has sworn this oath. It will be a travesty of historical proportions if all future Kaisers are forced to abide by it as well.

[Ituralde]

Conrad von Schüsselen has been sitting quiet for the last few minutes. Apparently recovering from his seizure earlier, but also delieberatly refraining from joining into the game started by the Fourth Elector of Austria.
With tensions running high, he stands up quickly and spreads his arms wide:

Gentlemen! Gentlemen!

Surely there is no need to let this folly erupt into a full out feud between our two esteemed Houses. Our charmed princess Agnes should not be bothered to be the point of friction between two of our Duchies.

Conrad looks at the Emperor and bows deeply

First, let me ask pardon for the rudeness done unto your daughter by the mistake of one of our Electors. He has quickly withdrawn his edict, because he noticed his error. I don't know what has transpired in Vienna to lead the Elector to this oppinion but his statements were never our intention. Rest assured that we will not tolerate such behaviour and punish him internally.

His gaze travels onward to Prinz Henry offering another bow, if not as deep as the one for the Emperor, still with the required reference:

And I would also like your pardon that our Elector has insulted the noble Edict of your house in regards to Metz. Surely this is a noble partaking and your Elector had every right to name his desires. I shall hereby second Edict 1.23.
No insult on our part was intended when our dear Elector questioned your proposal and we hold no ill-will against the Duchy of Swabia.

The Fourth Elector of Austria is met by Conrads stern gaze.

However, I do not understand why your Elector had to shame our dear princess by bringing up the... misunderstanding again and drawing her into this foolish notion which our Elector wrongfully proposed and which will, as I've already mentioned, have dire consequences.

Conrad takes a deep breath and looks around the Diet with an amiable smile on his face.

I hope this is settled then and our beloved Emperor does not have to be bothered to intervene in an non-existent dispute, caused by the hot-headedness of some of our younger members.

Again his gaze encompasses both the Fourth Elector of Austria and the Fifth Elector of Swabia before sinking back into his seat.


Edit: This should have gone before TinCows post. Have to type faster next time. ~;)

[Lucjan]

Dietrich watches quietly for a few moments, clearly amused with the most recent turn of events, but stands before the House of Austria can launch yet another tirade against the Swabians.

Good, people, of our noble houses. Perhaps the relevance of the subject is not entirely appropriate for diet discussion and should be kept to tavern talk and away from the floor of legal legislation. Let us refer instead to a more important subject matter.

Let us look at Kaiser Heinrich's proposition that lands be allocated geographically to maintain fairness and equal distribution of power between the houses.

Dietrich scratches his head, he's in a tight spot with this one, and takes his time to pick his wording carefully, that his position is properly understood.

I must support, and at the same time, detract, from seperate segments of this proposal. My support for the proposal lies in the Kaiser's inclination to make attempts at maintaining that no house acquires too much or too little power in regards to territory. This is an honorable pursuit, and for that I applaud him.

However, I do not think it is fair to allocate lands geographically. As we all know, this Empire is not going to make perfectly equal expansion in all directions. We all have our different opinions of allies, different opinions of enemies, except maybe the French and the Italians. I'm fairly certain we all despise them equally. But that's not the point. The point is that our expansion is not, and will not, be geographically equal in any sense of the word. Therefore the only way to maintain that territory is fairly distributed is to distribute according to merit. For example, an Austrian general may perform exceptionally well in the defence of Swabian lands, should the empire be invaded and all able generals needed to command the defence.

With that last statement, the steward casts a somewhat accusing glance at the bickering houses.

Therefore, when the defence is completed, a potential counterattack may ensue, and perhaps Swabia is then able to capture two regions from our enemy. In this situation, I would find the proper allocation of territory to be one region to Austria, one region to Swabia. Based on merit, and the good each House did for the whole of the empire. This is by no means geographically relevant to the House of Austria's current holdings, but it would be unfair to leave them unrewarded for their accomplishments.

This brings me to another relevant argument in regards to fairness. An argument I will not pursue, but feel compelled to bring up in light of this argument of territorial distribution.

Edicts are determined by votes, and the influence of each member of each house weighs into whether or not the edict is passed or failed. However, take into consideration that not all of our noble houses are comprised of the same number of electors. Franconia, for example, has only three, where Swabia has five, and Bavaria and Austria have four. This places Franconia at a significant disadvantage in all matters of state, when compared to the other noble houses of the empire.

Let me say for the record that this does not bother me, and I do not consider it a burden, nor do I want, expect, or wish for any kind of edict or notion to be mentioned to remedy this situation.

But , it is directly related to the question of territorial expansion. My counterpart in Bavaria has attempted to pick apart and amalgamize sections of our charter to try and counter my interpretation that only the kaiser may bestow lands, but I'm going to respond solely with common sense.

We will not expand equally in terms of geography. We do not hold equal influence in the diet. Therefore suggesting that edicts allowing specific distribution of regions to specific houses is in direct favor of whichever house has more electors than the others. For example, I do not wish to get involved in either side of Swabia and Austria's argument, and in the event that Bavaria does not either, then any edict that Swabia may suggest to give Swabia land that Austria also wants will automatically be passed in Swabia's favor by the weight of their electoral votes.

This is why it must be only the kaiser's decision as to which house's achievements merit the gifting of territory.

In this way I am very pleased to hear that the Kaiser's wisdom has opted him to try to fairly distribute the empire's territory, but I must also urge caution in regards to his promise of geographic distribution, as this is a promise that he may not by will, but by necessity, be forced to break.

In that respect I cannot support his edict that would also place later kaisers under the same restriction. I hope my stance in this matter does not offend or displease you Kaiser Heinrich. I am only putting forth my concerns as I think they stand well grounded in logic.

I would also, as he will someday in the distant future become as much an important figure in this Empire's history as Kaiser Heinrich is now, wish to hear what Prinz Henry has to say on the matter as well as his opinion on territorial distribution. After all, these subject will, however they are decided, directly affect him in the future.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry rises to his feet, nursing a bandaged hand and still mentally cursing the recent innovation of putting doors on carriages:

The House of Swabia unreservedly apologies to the House of Austria for any offence given by our most recent Elector... (scowls at the Fifth Elector of Swabia) ... who apparently has not yet adjusted to the solemn nature of the august body he has now joined. Fortunately, my sister does have a sense of humour, and may even find some merriment in recent exchanges - I trust the same is true of our dear brother Leopold. (Bows to the Austrian benches.)

On the matter of my father's charter ammendment (which does require seconding), I respect his determination to be equitable and to work towards coherent geographic boundaries. However, I do fear that edicts or ammendments over the Emperor's allocation of settlements start to blur the separation of powers that we have only just established with our charter.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: You are wise, noble Electors. I only sought to resolve the dispute that had popped up. I can only hope that future Kaisers will be as impartial as possible. I withdraw Amendment 1.1.

And as for the comments regarding my daughter and the House of Austria, I shall tolerate none of this talk in the Diet. As Agnes' father and her Kaiser it is my decision on who she marries. Certain electors' actions in the upcoming times will determine who she weds. *eyes Mandorf and von Saxony*

Now, if we may continue this Diet by conducting ourselves with the civility that your people expect of you, gentlemen.

[Dutch_guy]

The third elector of Franconia rises for the first time, and starts speaking. Slowly but deliberately...

Noble lords, of all houses !

The distribution of new land is not a matter to be taken lightly, as the noble leader of my house, and also of that Bavaria, have rightly concluded. The question here is to ask oneself if one should be encouraged to be passive, to let better men fight for them, or to actively seek to glorify the empire with the conquest of an enemy city. Surely, if the Kaiser so desires, we should argue for the latter !

I am no warmongerer, but I do understand the significance of a system based on personal merit, a system which is better than one of geographic distribution...

Nothing new here, but it had to be said nonetheless.

[Grande Orso]

The Fourth Elector of Swabia rises again still seemingly shy and $embarassed to talk in front of this important assembly

Kaiser Heinrich, Prinz Henry, and most respected electors of all houses,

I... *stops, opens scroll, looks at notes*... I cannot claim to be an expert in the matters of state but... but I would like to stir the Diet's attention again on the fact that most of our current deliberations have dealt with territorial expansion...

He stops and swallows. The Kurfurst is visibly embarassed by the fact that he has to raise his point again, and it is clear that he does not feel confortable enough to raise strong points

... while I find that territorial expansion is a most honourable objective for our Empire, and one that should be discussed at length, as all of you most wisely did, I would like to remind you once again that a consistent military expansion is also required to support new settlements, in order to avoid leaving our Empire weaker at the core and on its borders.

I may be young, and perhaps even vain, my most venerand colleagues, but we all know that the expansion of a military force, for the reasons I have just oultined, requires a large investment of Florins. I certainly do not wish to see a day in which our noble Empire will be unable to pay his soldiers because of an empty treasury, nor do I wish to see our armies lowering themselves to the barbaric practices of sacking cities and murdering innocent lives simply to gain a financial profit.

For this reasons, I would like to urge this Diet to deliberate on some financial matters, specifically, the establishment of trade relations with the French and perhaps the English to the West, and the development of a trade network of merchants hired by our Holy Crown in order to improve our income.

He stops and breathes in. Clearly, his last statement was more than he expected himself capable of saying in front of such a congregation of wise men. After a short pause, he concludes...

For all these reasons, I would like, with the permission of this powerful Diet, to humbly propose
Edict 1.24: A network of merchants hired by the Holy Crown should be developed over time, and trading of valuable European resources should commence in order to provide economic growth for our country. Merchants should be encouraged to cautiously experiment in hostile commercial takeover behaviour

Realizing my inexperience in these matters, I submit this edict to you and strongly encourage you to provide me with any amendments that you should see fit. Thank you for your attention.

The elector returns to his seat with his colleagues from the House of Swabia. Once again, he sighes of relief for being able to express his points without stumbling on his words.

[SwordsMaster]

The fourth elector of Bavaria rises again.

While I understand the concern of the lord that spoke before me, I find that his edict is very vaguely formulated.

I wish to support it in the following form:

If I may, elector, define clearer objectives, I propose:

Edict 1.25

All steps must be taken for the Holy Empire to established trade rights with the nations of Byzantium, Poland, Russia, England, Spain, The papal States Portugal and Sicily within 10 years.


All these nations are "neighbours of our neighbours" or, in Poland's case our neighbours that we have no intention of fighting in the immediate future.


EDIT: Renamed to avoid confusion.

[Grande Orso]

This time the Kurfurst of Swabia rises quickly and is more direct in addressing the comments of the previous elector

Noble sir, I am afraid that I have explained myself poorly on this matter. While I fully support the creation of trade treaties with all the countries that you have listed in your proposed amendment, this is not what I intended in my proposed Edict 1.24.
My proposal regarded the hiring of a number of merchants during the Chancellor's term which, under the control of our wise Emperor, would be able to trade resources in name of the Empire. A number of these merchants, especially if they were accustomed to the matters of trade, could significantly boost the Empire's resources and allow us to support the expansionary measures previously proposed.

Perhaps, may I suggest to you to more formally propose your edict under the label of Edict 1.25?

I welcome any further comments on the wording of my proposed measure, and I apologize for the confusion.

Sits down, embarassed by the confusion he has created

[TinCow]

*Maximillian Mansdorf shakes his head slowly at the Fourth Elector of Swabia*

Our armies would have to lower themselves to the barbaric practices of sacking cities?! Sir, have you ever even spent a day in an army? Honor and glory may be wonderful things, to be sure, but they are never enough to feed 5,000 hungry men. We can expect chivalrous and selfless behavior from noble generals, but what of the common man-at-arms and the levies that make up the vast majority of our forces?

You must understand reality, sir, and reality is that men rarely take up arms when their lives are not threatened unless there is the possibility of substantial benefit for themselves and their families. Yes, we pay our soldiers, but it is a pittance in comparison to what they expect to reap from their fallen enemies. Certainly it is wrong to massacre good Christian civilians for no reason, but what harm is there in appropriating the wealth of an enemy city on its conquest? To consistently deny the sack of enemy cities is to court desertion and mutiny.

Calling the practice of sacking barbaric is a direct insult to many of the noble men who stand with us in this very room! That includes our glorious Kaiser Heinrich. I know you do not need a history lesson, but it has been less than 10 years since the Kaiser sacked the Saxon lands of the previous Duke of Bavaria for fomenting rebellion. Are you calling the Kaiser a barbarian for this act?

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia stands up and adresses the crowd of Electors,

" Mein Kaiser, Mighty Lords of Germany. From my part i would like to apologize my harsh joke. I have nothing but admiration towards my fellow electors and im sorry about my rude manners. I have spent my life mostly on battlefields and learned from there that its better to speak shortly and say what you mean rather then make long speeches,when there are lot better men for such.
I would like to thank the second elector of Austria for seconding my proposal about sieging Metz and would beg for you gentlemen for someone to second edict 1.23 again so it can be voted on.
After inspecting the forces in Staufen i have came to conclusion that even if we leave some archers as garrison in Staufen, if my Lord and Prince, Henry would lead our men in the siege, im positive that we could starve out Metz in few years and if the garrison would try to sally he could defeat them without large problems
About the sacking of enemy cities. I think that its the pay of the soldier to take their share if the enemy is foolish enough to close their gates before the troops of Kaiser."

Fifth Elector of Swabia

[Grande Orso]

Stands, slightly blushing

I would like to apologize to the Diet for taking up so much of its time in historical discussions, but, if I may, I would like to address the claims made by Herr Mansdorf regarding my previous statement to this assembly.

*clears throat* Honoured sir, you are indeed correct in saying that I have not spent a single day in a proper army. These lands have seen much bloodshed and tumult in these years, and I, being of young age, have rarely left my hometown of Staufen. I have already expressed my desire and willingness to fight for the Holy Crown, and have put my own life at the service of my lord, Prinz Henry.

But while I may be inexperienced, I do not think that the systematic sacking of goods and murdering of civilians is the only thing that a person can expect after leading an army to victory. You say that we can only expect generals to be capable of pious and chivalrous acts. I say that people are led by example, and armies are inspired by their own leaders.

While our interests most certainly conflict with most of our neighbors, we must not forget that no matter what language is spoken on the streets of the cities we will march into for the glory of the Emperor, the people inhabiting them are going to be fellow Christians. If we are to improve our relations with the Holy Father in Rome, I think you will perhaps agree that murdering Catholics is not the wisest course of action. I am most willing to accept the practice of systematic sacking of the wealth of those who do not believe in the true God, but these vile people do not live within the reach of our empire for now, and they are not a concern.

And most importantly, I would like to apologize to all those who feel insulted by my comments in this room, including our Kaiser Henrich if he felt I intentionally offended him with my statement. But, while young of age, I am aware of the history of our glorious kingdom, and I would hardly compare the plundering of the Bavarian estates of Otto von Nordheim, former Duke of Bavaria, to the destruction of the wealth accumulated in a city by Christian hands. The former Bavarian Herzog, as you very well know, had plotted to murder our noble Emperor, and his estates had decided to aid him in his unholy plan, and our Kaiser's retaliation was more than justified.

I would like to conclude, if I may, that our Emperor has proven himself to be a great upholder of the Christian faith and a chivalrous leader, and I hope that everybody in this room may aspire to become a tenth of the man our Kaiser has shown himself to be.

Thank you

*Sits*

[flyd]

The Second Elector of Franconia takes the floor.

Although much has been discussed in this session of the Diet so far, I fear we lack direction. So far, little has been proposed other than expansion in many directions, and there has been much squabbling over settlement allocations and legal issues. It is true that we need to bring some of the surrounding independent states under Imperial influence before our rivals do, but we must begin to plan beyond that.

We are in a bit of a tricky position. We are surrounded by rivals on all sides. When we expand, we will come into contact with more of them, and our armies will be spread thin after conquest. I urge the Kaiser to leave no border with a major power undefended, lest they take the opportunity to grab some land. I would like to take a moment to discuss our potential rivals.

In the west we have France. Currently, Burgundy (Metz, Dijon) forms a buffer between us and France, but it is a very weak buffer. I believe that France could overrun them without great difficulty, unless they are engaged elsewhere. If we were to capture Metz instead, we would be abandoning the Rhine as a defensive frontier, and we would come into contact, and potentially conflict, with France. However, we would also move the border away from our capital at Frankfurt, and also Staufen, which would put those settlements in a safer position. This has to be considered very carefully. The best thing that could happen is that the French get into a conflict with the Normans, who have become a significant power after taking England. We should develop good relations, possibly even an alliance, with England, as a balance against France.

In Italy, the current peace seems very unstable. We have the potential to come into conflict with both Milan and Venice. It is imperative that we get into a conflict with only one of them, when the times comes. Venice may look to expand to the east, and may come into conflict with Hungary or even the Greeks. Conflict with Milan seems more likely, especially since it is supposed to be our land anyway. We should therefore look to establish good relations with Venice.

In the east we have Hungary and Poland. We already border Hungary. In fact, their capital is very close to Vienna. Vienna must remain well defended. I believe the Hungarians will take advantage of any perceived weakness. Poland is further away, and there are buffers between us, such as Bohemia and others. These should be brought under Imperial control, but that is not urgent. An important thing about Poland is that it is a potential enemy of Hungary, which is why we should develop good relations with them.

In the north, there is Denmark. If we capture Hamburg, we will have a perfectly positioned castle to keep them confined to the Jutland peninsula. For that reason, I do not see them as a great threat.

These are some things to consider. I will not propose any new edicts, as there are very many edicts already, and some of them already deal with the relevant issues. Edict 1.3 deals with the north, establishing a good defensive position against Denmark. Edict 1.4 establishes good relations with Venice, while Edict 1.17 forbids Milan as a friend. Edict 1.6 provides for surveillance against Hungary, while Edict 1.19 establishes good relations with Poland. Edict 1.25 mentions good relations with England and Poland, and other non-adversary countries. All of these Edicts are consistent with the arguments I made above.

[DMu]

Daily Vote from a portion of Austria:

Edict 1.22: 504 vs 777: Nein
Edict 1.23: 877 vs 0: Nein
Edict 1.24: 712 vs. 200: Ja: seconded.
Edict 1.25: 213 vs. 9: Ja: seconded.

[pevergreen]

Friends, I am unable to comprehend what the Swabian Elector means, I have been forced Lothar is smacked on the back of the head by Conrad uhh...decided to retire from this session of the Diet until voting commences.

Thank you.

[Warluster]

I put forward an edict,
Edict (OOC-What one are we up to?) -We stregthen relations with the papal States through the options we have so far.

If we could improve our relationswe would be able to attack Catholic nations, not that I propose that.

[DMu]

Nameless elector from Austria stand up.

May I have your attention, fellow Furkurst and Caesar Meus et Augustus Meus.

Hands over a scroll (Edict 1.26)

it reads

In the event that an Imperial princess fails to secure a marriage and is disgraced, The Empire shall declare war on the ungrateful faction to whom the princess is eloped. This is not to recover the princess, but to teach the ungrateful faction a lesson. No faction shall kidnap our princess with impunity.

I await with anticipation your responses, my lords.

[Warluster]

I do not like or dislike edict 1.26. I dislike it because we would be getting into wars a lot, money gone from the treasury!

I like it because it is a bad will if they decline us an treaty!

[TinCow]

An entire war over a single woman? Need I remind you gentlemen that we are the true heirs of the Roman Empire. An Empire which was founded by those who fled Troy after its fall. Surely there is some lesson to be had in that.

I personally will not go to war soley for the sake of a woman, no matter how royal her blood may be! If there is a legitimate cause for the war, then it can stand on those grounds. If there is nothing but the woman's shame... well... let her come to my estate. I will comfort her! Mandorf laughs heartily.

[OverKnight]

The Third Elector of Bavaria speaks to the Diet:

I do not wish to add to the debate of which rebel lands we should conquer, but I do hope to clarify it. I will list all rebel lands we border, starting with Florence and moving clock-wise, whether they are Castles (C) or Towns (T), and which edicts, if any, call for their conquest.

Florence (T) 1.18
Bern (C) 1.13
Metz (C) 1.7,1.23
Antwerp (T) 1.8
Hamburg (C) 1.3
Magdeburg (C)
Breslau (T)
Prague (T) 1.5
Zagreb (T)

I hope this will aid the members of the Diet in their discussion and the Kaiser in his battle plans.

[OverKnight]

The Third Elector of Bavaria looks around, sees that no one else has spoken, and addresses the Diet again:

I apologize for speaking a second time my fellow Electors, but I wish to comment on some of the recent proposed edicts:

I second edict 1.25, not only will trade rights allow our coffers to grow, but they serve as a good base for further diplomatic discussions if needed. My fellow Elector from Bavaria is wise in proposing this.

Edict 1.24 has merit, but developing and financing merchants is expensive work. Not only does it take money to recruit merchants, but unless our towns have trade buildings we can only recruit so many, one or two currently. In the long run, merchants, if they are not driven out of business, pay off this investment of florins. However in the short term they do not. Perhaps, with money so tight in the next few years we should delay recruiting them.

Edict 1.26 is unwise. According to the charter the Diet, unless there is an enemy incursion into our territories, votes on when to declare war. If we encounter a situation as laid out in the edict, we can decide then if war is justified. I will not vote for edicts now that constrain our actions in the future.

Thank you my lords.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia greets everyone and starts reading from a scroll: "I will support the following edicts,that still need seconding:"


Edict 1.10: The available spy in the Prague region should infiltrate the city and bring back to the Reich info on a daily basis.
Proposed: Third Elector of Austria (DMu)


"In my opinion Prague should be added to the Empire as soon as practical and good information is a part of succesfull planning for victory."

Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.
Proposed: Third Elector of Swabia (Ignoramus)


"At current moment i agree that this would be the best option.The case can be re entered later."

"That is all.The rest of edicts already have two seconders,i cant support becouse i have suggested or i dont simply agree with at the moment".Fifth Elector of Swabia bows and sits down on his place.

[Ituralde]

Conrad von Schüsselen rises slowly once again and looks at the assembled members.

First I have to respond to the previous speaker about Edict 1.22. Have we not just recently ruled out the possibility of the Diet allocating settlements? Surely this includes gifting them to the Empire! All Edicts implying the ownership of a certain settlement should be amended, as I will hereby do to our own Edict 1.18. Edict 1.22 should not stand to vote as it is beyond our rights to force Emperor Heinrich to do this.

He casts a stern gaze towards the Fifth Elector of Swabia, before calming down and continuing to the Diet:

With our meeting calling to a close our dear friend of Franconia... His gaze travels to the Second Elector of Franconia ...has rightfully reminded us how important it is that we carefully consider the actions proposed within our Edicts, and which ones can be fulfilled, before casting our votes.
All in all I agree with the general push of the dear Elector and must applaude him on summarizing our situation so beautifully.

As many others here, I also have concerns about our plans for expansion. Should all edicts be passed we would surely overstretch ourselves. I would advise the Emperor to not take more than three settlements in the initial push. Metz, Hamburg and Florence seem to be the most argued for, closely followed by Prague, I think. Having acheived the former we should take time to evaluate our position before moving on to the fourth target in that list. From campaigning with our dear Emperor I know him to be a good tactician who surely needs little guidance from me on that matter, but I had to make my oppinions public. A careful yet resolute appraoch would be best suited for our expansions.

Next we should look at Edicts that contradict each other or should not be undertaken together. Two of those would be... He looks down to one of his scribes... Edict 1.4 and 1.20. If both of those should pass we would find ourselves allied to two powers in Italy. Surely we should not give our word for an alliance away so lightly. As you know I'd prefer a temporary alliance with Venice while a neutral stance towards Sicily is maintained. However I don't know the outcoming of our ruling and would propose that only the Edict supported by the most votes will lead to a full alliance.

At last I would like to take up again on Edict 1.17. To my disappointment our Emperor seems not to favour it.
He casts a short glance to Emperor Heinrich.
I have to ask all of you assembled here to consider the price of our honour and integrity, before deciding to barter it away to the highest bidder. Our financial situation is neither that desperate nor should we be that greedy to accept by peaceful trade money that should have been ours to begin with. A clear stance has to be found regarding the Italian City States. By accepting trade rights or other diplomatic actions we would indirectly show them that we approve of their actions. Indepence from the Empire should not be gained that lightly, so once again I urge you dear Electors to support me in Edict 1.17 and show those money-loving Milanese that our acceptance and goodwill can not be bought by their cheap gold!

His voice has risen again to the end of his speech and he has talked himself into a rage. He breathes deeply to compose himself...

That's all I have to say on these matters.

...and sits back down.

[OverKnight]

The elector speaks to the Diet:

Lords, having listened to Elector Conrad's statements, I feel I must reaffirm the importance of taking the rebel castle of Bern. I share the Elector's distrust of the Milanese, if not his intensity over it. What better way to guard against their treachery than to secure all the Alpine passes between us and them?

And when we decide to restore our claim to Milan, we could use Bern as part of a pincer movement against their territories. Genoa could be seized by an army from Florence, and their capital taken by an army marching from Bern.

I am not saying this day is close, but let us lay down the foundation for it. Let us take Bern to secure our southern border and provide a solid base for our future expansion. Please vote for edict 1.13.

Thank you my lords.

[Ituralde]

Conrad shakes his head at this proposal, obviously the Elector has only listened to half his statements.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich stands as the commotion starts to die down and turns a direct eye to the fourth elector of Swabia.

As seems to have been overlooked, despite a second plea, and, trust me young sir, at least one set of ears did hear your first, a question of how much our aimed expansion will strain our coffers and weaken our army has been raised.

I would like to take some time to adress this question as it is one that deserves an honest reply.

Firstly, in regards to the fear of straining our coffers. I must say that while it is an understandable concern, it is not one that, at this point in time, should be dwelled upon too heavily for the following reasons.

Our expansion into new cities and castles will undeniably bring in more florins to help alleviate the financial strain of maintaining our armies.

Our cities, under their individual charters and according to the size of their defences and imperial distribution of arms, are capable of providing us with a reasonable number of militia regiments *, free of any upkeep charges through the laws of compulsory defence service, to act as a policing force to maintain order within the city as well as to act as the cities last line of defence, should our armies fail to arrive on time or, God forbid, be lost in battle against a foe. These free militia regiments should prove excellent in their designated tasks. Those being to keep the peace, and not cost us any more money than we need to form the regiment. That is, of course, so long as they aren't removed from the city. Furthermore our ability to recruit higher class militias will grow in conjunction with the strength of the city itself.

As the Empire grows, so does trade, taxes, and farming revenue. All of these things bring coin into the coffers, which can be spent, pending the wisdom of our dukes and stewards, to further increase the profitability or military strength of the empire through the construction of domestic or military architectural projects. Each House here most certainly understands the importance of a balance of both, and the Kaiser himself has final say over whether or not construction is allowed, so ducal queies that may be undesirable either financially or militarily at the time can simply not be acted upon by the Kaiser.

I hope I have eased your concern in regards to our coffers. So, on to the other question.

Secondly, in regards to your concern that we may be overstretching our military, I don't believe we'll have any problems there either.

Kaiser Heinrich is an able military commander and an equally able administrator. I trust his judgement in the distribution of funds for training and retraining military regiments as is needed, and I can assure you that he will not be unknowledgable of the Empire's affairs in this regard.

I will be in contact with the Kaiser as often as is needed to ensure that our northern border with Denmark remains secure during my stay in Hamburg and has the necessary defences to remain that way when I leave. And as certain as I am that each and every one of our nobility in the field and on our borders will speak with the kaiser at different times to suggest and request anything that they may need done to uphold the stability of the Empire, I am certain the Kaiser will act in his best judgement to assure the same. I do not know him as the kind of man to disregard the suggestions and evaluations of his trusted generals more closely located to the situation than himself.

Dietrich, feeling he has sufficiently adressed the young electors concerns, sits, but keeps an eye on him to see if he has any other questions.

* ( OOC - A Regiment was the name for the standard field unit in the HRE at the time, and I believe when referring to game "units", we should use this term.)

[econ21]

[Prinz Henry: The list of proposed edicts and their seconders has been updated. Recall an edict needs TWO seconders before it can be voted on. The deadline for seconding (or proposing) motions is 3 hours hence (18.00 UK time).

I second edicts 1.8, 1.23 and Charter Ammendment 1.2.

[Ituralde]

Conrad goes over some paperwork with his secretaries as he suddenly seems to notive something and stands up. Coughing loudly and then clearing his throat he begins to speak.

It just realized that by Edict 1.13 Bern would be given to the House of Bavaria upon its conquest. While I perceive Bern to be a vital target in our expansion strategies I am against the consequences implied in this Edict. If it is not amended I will call Edict 1.27:
Bern is to be a prime target for Imperial Expansion. The Kaiser has to ensure that no other major power seizes this valuable asset before the Empire does so.

I'm especially referring to the threat of a Milanese expansion through the Alps here which can not be allowed. Bern has to be captured but I stilll strongly oppose any notion that this Diet can rule on the Allocation of settlements.

Conrad sends a curt nod towards the Bavarian Electors and sits back down, once again occupied with the documents brought to him by his secretaries.

[OverKnight]

The Third Elector licks his lips, glances around nervously and decides to speak:

My lords, in reviewing charter amendment 1.2 I noticed in no place does it mention how many edicts the Kaiser himself may propose.

The elector reads the amendment from a scroll:

Each elector is only allowed to put forward 3 edicts to the Diet. Dukes are allowed 5, while the Chancellor has no limit.

Without mentioning the Kaiser specifically it would limit him to 3 edicts as a mere elector if he were not a Chancellor or a Duke. I hope this was an oversight by the Third elector of Swabia, and that he was not attempting to muzzle future Kaisers.

As for edict 1.27, have you proposed it officially Elector Conrad? If so I will consider seconding it, however the hour is drawing late for new edicts. . .

The elector trails off and returns to his seat.

[Ituralde]

If 1.13 ist not ammended my Edict 1.27 stands!

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:Gentlemen, the deadline for proposing/seconding edicts will expire in five minutes' time. We shall then proceed to vote on them. I urge any elector who has not yet seconded an edict that he agrees with to do so immediately.

[TinCow]

If I am not too late, as requested, I will amend Edict 1.13 as follows so that it does not conflict with either 1.27 or the stated rules on provincial ownership.

Edict 1.13: The Diet wishes to advise the Kaiser that it is their desire that Bern be given to Bavaria upon conquest.

I second Edict 1.27

[Ituralde]

Conrad had been bustling with anticipation as the deadline as drawn near. He knew he brought the Edict forward too late, but he was still hoping. After Maximilian Mandorf has made his stand he bows courtouesly to the Bavarian delegation, a small smile of relief on his face.

[DMu]

Third Kurfurst of Austria speaks.

Salvete! Fellow Kurfurst, mein Kaiser, et mein Prinz:

I have managed to tally the votes coming from my portion of Austria

Edicts:

1.1: Aye
1.3: Aye
1.4: Aye
1.5: Aye
1.6: Aye
1.7: Aye
1.8: Aye
1.13: Aye
1.16: Aye
1.17: Aye
1.18: Aye
1.19: Aye
1.20: Aye
1.23: Nay
1.25: Aye

Charter amendment 1.2: NAY NAY NAY. *brandishes sword* it's a conspiracy to limit the power of the people! It must be stopped. It must be stopped I tell you! At all cau-- early symptom of stroke as third elector of Austria falls silent, his lower lips out of sync with his upper one.*

[Ituralde]

Conrad von Schüsselen was already disgruntled about his last Edict not being seconded in time. Now with every Elector not from the House of Austria arrayed against his Edict 1.17 he can't hold back any longer and jumps off his seat:

This is an Outrage!!

I'm disgusted by the decision of this Diet concerning those treacherous Dogs! If you're so greedy for their shiny gold why don't you just crawl up their arses and get it!? It seems like you're already too far up to listen to reasonable arguments anyways!!

Conrad von Schüsselen throws up his arms in exasperation, casting scornful looks through the assembly.

I can't stand to be in the same room with such money-loving hypocrites!

Bristling with indignation he storms out of the Assembly.
His clerks forward his votes from Edict 1.17 onwards.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth elector of Swabia stands up after a period of silence caused by the thundering of second elector of Austria and says:

"I have been fallowing the votes and want to express my disappointment over the votes for edict 1.23. What is the reasoning that many of you are against sieging Metz? Now is the time to surround it and put it back under the rule of Kaiser! Is it not better to siege it now and take it from the rebel slaves that oppose the fair rule of Kaiser rather then to wait for French to take it and then wage war against them with our current limited resources?

Fifth elector pauses for a second and then slowly raises his head revealing a beast like grin as he stares down on the second and third Elector of Swabia.

" You of all people should understand the importance of Metz for protecting the capital of our Dutchy Swabia, Staufen. Do you want to sit on your hands when the French come and take the towns right under our own nose? Maybe you are better on amusing Whenches then taking your sword and following your Prince in to the battle for the Glory of the Reich? I think that our Suebi ancestors will turn in their graves when they see that the protectors of our people are too afraid to take the cities that are rightfully part of the Empire!"

Electors speach has turned in to bull like groaning and he has to stop yelling becouse he is out of breath.With his still red face twisted by anger he stares around the room and says:

"In the face of the God and Kaiser. I hereby pledge an oath that once i leave for my quarters i shall put on my armor and will not take it off before German forces have sieged Metz in order to bring it back in the Reich.As God is my witness i shall eat,sleep and and do everything else in my armour from now on untill we have renewed our courage and sieged Metz!"

Fifth Elector of Swabia turns around and leaves the room to put on his armour.

[pevergreen]

People stand and look for the sounds of hysterical laughter. It turns out to be Lothar Van Austria.

Im sorry, It's just that, I would like to propose, hahaha that we never take Metz! Ever! Falls over laughing

I cant stop holding my sides!

[TinCow]

The Fifth Elector of Swabia shows noble purpose in his words. Let it not be said that the House of Bavaria does not support those with great moral fibre. As it will surely be 2 to 4 years at least before Metz is besieged, it seems likely that the Swabian Elector will have some difficulties with his metal lederhosen. Accordingly, the House of Bavaria hereby donates, free of charge, a full cartload of oil to help lubricate his nether regions, and another cartload of orange slices, to aid his... bouquet... while in the Diet.

[OverKnight]

OOC: This was supposed to go up before TinCow's post.

The Third Elector, hunched over paper work, looks wearily up from his desk at the commotion, parchment is scattered across it and a few stray pages have fallen to the floor of the Diet chamber. The Elector runs ink stained fingers through his hair, stands and speaks:

My Lords, could we wait for the voting to close before we begin yelling at each other again? If you are disappointed to have the voting go against you, channel that rage against our true enemies. The Reich, in the coming years, will need all of us. Pray remember that.

The Elector sits down heavily at his desk and returns to his scribbling.

[IvarrWolfsong]

Letter to the Imperial Diet from Cardinal Peter Scherer

Kaiser Heinrich, Emperor of Romans by the Grace of God, annointed and approved by the True Church, his beloved son Henry, Prinz of the Empire and noble members of the Diet,

It is with great sorrow that I am unable to attend the present session of this righteous body. As true Christians, I pray you will find it in your hearts to forgive my absense.

I have been held up in a meeting with an agent of the Office of the Holy Father himself. This man, one Rudolfo Orsini of Genoa, has spoken to me regarding the current state of affairs in the Vatican. A more detailed account will be made to the Kaiser and Prinz Henry in person, but let it be said that what I have heard saddens and angers me.

In brief, it is my duty as an elector to advise the diet of the following: although our Holy Father is a man greatest faith and piety who holds no hatred for our people, there are men among his court that do not feel the same way. Gregory, so full of purity and goodness himself, sometimes fails to see the evil in men and takes their lies for truth. These serpents, mostly Italians from the north, seek to cause strife between our Reich and the Holy See. <<scribbled in the margin>>The arrogance and impiety of men to speak untruths to the Pontiff as he sits upon the very Throne of Peter himself fills me with the most uncharitible rage. Vengence, in the end, is our Lords, but justice, that is the duty of our temporal rulers!<<end margin>>. I believe they hope to gain favor for their cities at the expense of our Empire.

To men of action such as yourselves, these whispers may seem little more than the gossip of cloistered old men. However, I must strong disagree. Should this trend continue, the Italians and even the French, who allow heresy to thrive within their very borders, will gain the protection of the Vatican while we gain it's scorn. Attacks by the favored may be overlooked while retailiation by our forces will be met with admonshments and grave spiritual consequences for our leaders. I know there was talk of establishing an embassy within the Holy City so that the Holy Father may hear our love for him from our own lips and not through the poisoned tongues of Italian vipers. Now, more than ever, I strongly support such a venture.

Finally, the matter of the young French noblewoman who spoke so many slanders to the character and habits of the good Prinz has been reconcilled. With the help of our friends in Palermo, young Maribelle DuPot Guillbert has agreed to enter the cloister of Santa Maria Carmel di Palermo. <<scribbled in the margin>> King Roger is a righteous man and strong in both faith and arms. He is of Norman, not Italian, blood. <<end margin>> This is an order of silent sisters and it is fitting that one who spoke such cruel untruths should, in seeking to achieve absolution and Grace through our Savior, chose a vow of silence. I am pleased to see her on the path to redemption.

I expect this letter to arrive well after the voting has concluded, and therefore must abstain from casting votes this session. If by the Grace of God and divine Providence, my rider has arrived before the ceasation of voting, I whole heartedly support any action to dispatch an ambassador to the Vatican. Should there be enough time, I would ask that other pressing matters be addressed to Father Willem of Bruges, my Latin Secretary. He knows my mind and knows when descisions should be left to me. You may find him at my apartments north of the grain markets.

In eternal service to Church and Empire,

Peter Johann Philodolphus Scherer, Cardinal.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich leans back in his chair, placing his hands behind his head with a smile. The recent outbursts have certainly struck a chord of amusement with him. He has no long winded speech in regards to the acts, but while he quietly thinks to himself that he's glad his House is a bit more, reserved, he thinks it might be a necessity to clear up some issues with the fifth elector of Swabia. Calling one of his court aids to him he sends a letter to the man assuring him that he's overlooked a tiny detail. Metz in fact will be taken, it's been provided for by an earlier edict.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia returns in the council room in his Hauberg and his helmet on his armpit.Talks to his scribe shortly and adresses the humoured crowd:

"First i would like to thank the House of Bavaria and Maximilian Mandorf for their generous offer of oil and other lointments and when considering how the votes are progressing i will gladly accept their gifts."

Elector bows his head towards the Bavarians and then adresses Dietrich Von Saxony from the Franconian side:

" I see you as a good man and great amongst the Lords of the Reich. But what the edict you talk about says is that we would raise an army capable of conquering Metz, this is good and fine,but the edict doesnt say that we would be sieging Metz.
While we build up our army its possible that the French will conquer the town meanwhile and i suspect that this Council will not support war with the French becouse of the Metz in that case during the next diet. This is the exact reason i proposed edict 1.23. So if i have to rot inside my Hauberk like the fourth Austrian Elector suggested to the council,then God´s will it is. And i should stay in my armour for the remainder of my days"

Fifth Elector of Swabia sits on his place rather heavily.

[Lucjan]

There is, I believe, sufficient understanding between the Kaiser and myself, due to his initial favor of my proposal rather than a similar one which cuts the time to take Metz into half of what I have provided, and due to the continual talk amongst the diet during the proceedings of Metz most certainly being a clear target for immediate expansion, that the edict requires Metz be taken.

In the future it may be beneficial to us all to be a bit more clear in the wording of our edicts, so as to avoid potential confusion like this. The implication of the edict however is that an army must be formed and must have conquered Metz by the end of the Kaiser's term as chancellor.

If I understand correctly, the reason your own proposal was turned down was due to the fact that it would have forced a prolonged, many year siege that would have denied the Empire much florins from trade, tax and farmland yields that could otherwise be more swiftly taken with an assault on the tiny castle.

I apologize for the confusion, but I had assumed the diet was in full understanding of the edict. Perhaps you walked in after the first couple of speeches had already been given, and missed out on our initial banterings in regards to Metz.

[TinCow]

I am in agreement with the Steward of Franconia. I personally voted against Edict 1.23 because as I read it, it prevented the besieging army from assaulting Metz to bring about its conquest even faster. If the Field Marshal in command of the army assigned to this task chooses to starve them out, I will support that move. However, I did not wish to limit his strategic options by pre-determining the nature of the military actions.

[Braden]

First elector count Leopold of Austria enters holds he hand up to be recognised.

Fellow electors,

I apologise for my absence of late, I have been busy with certain...investigations of our neigbours and there potential intentions towards us.

I will like to support a call to secure Florence under our control. The income from the city for the Diet will be great and also I would also like to formally state that when I am absent it is the second elector count Conrad who speaks for Austria and his words and proposals have the same weight as those put forward by myself.

Leopold sits.

[OverKnight]

A messenger enters the Diet chamber and hands the Third Elector of Bavaria a sealed scroll. The elector opens the letter and begins reading the contents. His eyes widen at one point before he finishes. The elector stands and addresses the Diet:

My Lords, I have just received a letter from our long absent 2nd Elector, Otto von Kassel. He has asked me to read a portion of it to the Diet.

The elector clears his throat and reads from the scroll:

"Kaiser Heinrich, Prinz Henry and the Electors of the Reich, greetings from Innsbruck. I apologize that I was unable to attend the Diet this year, but my many duties as Castellan have kept me here. There is always something to repair, patrols to be made or some dispute between peasants to sort out. If I have to rule on another case about disputed pig ownership I fear I shall go mad. My patrols in the Brenner pass have been more fruitful. Our border with Venice seems quiet for now, but I have scouted several excellent locations for ambushes if they dare to march against us.

I have heard from the Kaiser that I am to go on Campaign! This is good news, I would much rather be on horseback than sitting behind walls. Innsbruck will need to be looked after however. I have asked Elector Gunther to keep things in order in my absence. I've already invited his wife Bertha and their children to the castle, so that they may be reunited when he returns. She says it has been too long since she has seen her husband and that there are several matters they must discuss. She is a formidable woman. Some wars are waged on the battlefield and others in the bedroom, good luck elector!"

The elector looks extremely uncomfortable reading that last part, but it seems he was instructed to. He continues reading:

"Preparations for the upcoming campaign continue in earnest. I hope the next time I write it will be from the field. I also hope you keep myself, and the elector, particularly the elector, in your prayers. Glory to the Kaiser! Glory to the Reich!

Otto von Kassel"

The elector furls up the scroll and speaks:

Well, ah. . .it appears I must leave immediately for Innsbruck. It has been an honor to serve Bavaria in the Diet, but it seems I must return to Innsbruck and my. . .beloved. . .wife.

The elector gathers up his belongings and exits the chamber.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I wish to congratulate Army Commander Dietrich von Saxony for his stunning victory at Hamburg. It was imperative that we take that settlement to preempt the Norsemen, but the manner in which our conquest was achieved shows the makings of a great general!

Like any older brother, I confess I have looked critically at any would-be suitor of my sister, Agnes. However, after his accomplishments at Hamburg, I am delighted to toast her intended, Dietrich. I heartily endorse my father's choice of husband for Agnes. And I look forward to Dietrich steering the House of Franconia in a new capacity as its Duke.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia sends his Congratulations on the Duke Of Franconia!

"The word has reached me of the brave victory in Hamburg! I will send my best regards to man in charge of the succesfull assault and would also like to congratulate becouse of your marriage to our dear and beutifull Princess.

Hail Dietrich the Duke Of Franconia!"

Fifth Elector of Swabia

[pevergreen]

Well done Dietrich, I commend you on your assault. Now, I ask, what was your personal body count? I hope it was high, because I plan to get a few.
Whos up for a challange? Most personal kills by us and our bodyguard!

[Lucjan]

I thank everybody for their congratulations and good wishes. Especially Prinz Henry for his blessings. It has always been an honor to serve.

[OverKnight]

Otto von Kassel enters the Diet chamber and addresses the assembly:

Hamburg is ours! Glory to the Reich on our victory, may it be the first of many!

Congratulations to Steward von Saxony, not only has he taken a castle but a wife as well. Most efficient my lord! I hope you remember my words to the Third Elector.

I also wish the Kaiser luck in his siege of Florence and congratulations on the growth of his family. Reinforcements are ready at Innsbruck if he needs them. I'm sure our new allies would not mind if we used their roads, particularly if they didn't see us do it.

God has smiled upon us and our endeavors my lords!

[Ituralde]

Conrad von Schüsselen looked his usual composed self, which nearly made one forget his outburst on the Diet's floor during the last Voting. With news of conquest from the north and Siege from the south he seems content enough to rise and speak to the Assembly:

Dear Electors,

First I want to apologize for my recent ouburst. It seems that my temper got the better of me. Although I regret my harsh words their implicatons still mirror my convictions.

A slight look of Challenge appears on his face

I would also like to add my congratulations to our Duke Dietrich von Saxony. His brave attack on Hamburg castle has surely earned him this title along with the hand of the Imperial princess.
I'm also glad to hear of the new addition to the Imperial familiy, may young Elsebeth become at least as beautiful as Agnes and find a husband whose bravery and wisdom matches that of Dietrich von Saxony.

Although it pains me to be here, while our dear Kaiser finally brings Florence to his heels, I wish him swift progress in his ongoing siege. May he not forget the suggestions offered on this floor and continues his reign as Chancellor as successfully as he has begun it.

[Dutch_guy]

May I too, albeit somewhat late, congratulate Dietrich on his well deserved, and fought, victory.

:balloon2:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Yes, congratulations to Dietrich on his splendid accomplishments at Hamburg. He is now the proud husband of Agnes, as well as Duke of Franconia.

I will not say too much until an official report is put out, but Florence is now ours and Metz will soon fall.

Elector Mandorf, I request that you set the tax level in Nuremberg to very high instead of its previous level of high. Currently money is rather tight and public order is at a very healthy 165%. I do not believe the peasants will mind giving a little extra to help out the Empire.

I await your response.

[Braden]

Electors,

Certain misunderstandings followed by uncharacteristic behaviour by the other Electors of Austria have come to light.

I formally insist that all the Electors of Austria contact me as soon as is possible, this is a formal meeting. We will resolve and unify our interests so that there will be no further public issues between Austria and the other Diets without first direction from either myself or the second elector.

I do not address you in dishonour though, but we must realise that we need to convein to establish a long term view and a code of practice for the Diet.

I am aware that many of the issues have occurred due to my absence...this will not happen again without sufficient contingency.

Leopold

[TinCow]

Mein Kaiser, it is certainly possible for the citizens of Nuremburg to contribute more of their income to taxes than they currently do. However, the people must be compensated for such an onerous levy. I will agree to the increase if you will agree to give Nuremburg and Innsbruck construction priority in the event that a lack of Imperial funds prevents investment in some settlements.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Yes, Elector Mandorf, I suppose that is not too much of a problem. Hopefully due to your agreement this problem shall not have to arise in the first place.

[Warluster]

The second elector of Swabia stands up
I only just got news of this great victory Dietrich the Duke Of Franconia won us, I wish to congratulate you on this great victory
The elector raises his hand in congratulations

[Lucjan]

Duke Dietrich stands and nods to the Swabian elector before rubbing his chin in thought, something clearly on his mind.

Much thanks, again.

News has reached Hamburg that things are going well in other parts of the Empire also. What can be said of our progress in Florence and Metz, as well as our potential prospects in Prague?

What has Venice been up to as well? Allies they may be, but I'm sure they realise it is only by strategic necessity. Once we gain a level of power their twisted little Doge decides he's uncomfortable with he'll scrounge up his militia and try to make a move. I'm sure many of our southern lords are counting on this, that they may put him in his place and take Venice for our own. But it is important to not let such 'friends by necessity' feel like they're not being watched, or they may make their move before we're fully prepared to put them down, otherwise they might set our plans back for a short time with their inconveniences.

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Stolze stands up before the diet, his face full of admiration.

I will not let it be said of me that I did not congratulate the Duke of Franconia on his marvelous victory over the Saxons in Hamburg. He showed good insight and wisdom in the way that he conducted a dangerous assault. Our Reich is blessed indeed to possess such men of bravery, valour, and loyalty.

[OverKnight]

Otto can be seen nodding in agreement to Dietrich's speech, he stands and speaks to the Diet:

The Duke of Franconia is correct my lords. While we are indeed allied with these merchants, I'm sure they would turn on us for much less than 30 pieces of silver. With one army in Venezia they can move to threaten Bologna, Vienna, or Innsbruck. They control the Adriatic and could blockade Bologna at will, cutting off trade in our only developed port.

By mentioning this I am supporting the Duke's call for keeping a close eye on our "allies", but I am not calling for renouncing this treaty or advocating a preemptive strike. The Diet passed edict 1.4, which I voted against, and we have an alliance. Being the first to betray our word would damage our future negotiations with other powers.

This should not stop us from watching them for the first sign of their inevitable betrayal! Once they strike at us we, having been vigilant, can rain down destruction upon them, secure in our knowledge that our fellow Christians will see us as the aggrieved party!

The Kaiser, in his wisdom, has kept our frontiers with Venice strong. Perhaps another watchtower or two on our borders would assist us in monitoring them, but that is merely a suggestion.

Glory to the Reich and the Kaiser! May his enemies die quickly and in great numbers!

Edit: Otto notices the new face in the chamber and speaks on the way back to his seat:

Welcome to the Diet, Elector Sigismund!

[Lucjan]

Dietrich, following Otto's speech, stands and raises a finger in the air, as if making a point.

Just to elaborate on my concerns, it must be said that the alliance with Venice was always intended as a simple measure of securing our Italian situation while Florence was besieged.

It has always been expected, and I have always anticipated that this alliance would not be beneficial to us only in its initial existance, but moreso in its disintigration. When Venice does decide to break the treaty, we will have every right and reason to exact the just punishment they deserve.

In essence, the alliance was intended as a weapon against our ally.

I am simply raising the issue now to make sure that none among us here become too comfortable, or too leniant in our watch of the Italian dogs. I am just assuring that we keep our eyes open, and our soldiers ready.

[Braden]

It appears that there has been some misinformation given. Whereas it was stated that an instruction for building was required for Austria, there was already one given by my Second Elector.

However, I would like it noted that the instruction that has been forwarded by myself and NOT the Second Elector holds at this time.

The Electors of Austria are currently in conference to decide the final outcome of our requirements for Vienna and Austria but they will NOT be to convert my fair city into a Castle!

However, that brings us to a point where The House of Austria are clearly without a military establishment and to this point I will petition the Keizer to allow Austria to have control of the next suitable Castle that is absorbed into the Reith.

On the subject of Venice, I am clearly in agreement with Dietrich, we will use them as we see fit but allow them a short leash.

[Ignoramus]

It appears that the valiant efforts of our Prinz have gone unnoticed. I will not allow this to happen. I fully commend and congratulate our Prinz and my Duke, Henry, on his marvelous victory over the rebellious Burgundians at MEtz.

[OverKnight]

Otto, who had been dozing in his seat in the Diet, snaps awake as Sigismund speaks:

What? Oh, yes. Yes! How rude of me, of course the Prinz is due our congratulations! As are you Elector, even if you were too modest to speak of your own exploits in the battle. I see the Kaiser chose well in his addition to the royal family.

Not only was it an brilliant assault with few losses, but we beat our "cousins" to the west to the prize! Well done!

Victories to the north, south and west! The Reich is on the march.

[Warluster]

the second elector of Swabia stands up, a look of guilt upon his face
I congratulate you Prinz Henry, Metz is finnaly ours, I also have anothewr thing to say, i feel I have not been contrbuting to the Diet, I shall put more effort in from now.
He sits down

[Kagemusha]

The clerk of fifth elector of Swabia asks for permission to speak and once cleared starts to read a letter:

"The fifth elector of Swabia sends his congratulations to our dear Prinz and to the Swabian forces that took Metz with perfectly launched assault.Unfortunately im still not able to join the diet,becouse my health is not the best it could be after wearing full armour for few years.Once i recover i will travel to the meeting right away.Now i have some skin problems to attend".

Fifth Elector of Swabia

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Good Electors! We meet again! It has been many long years since this Diet was last opened, and much has occured since then! I suggest you familiarize yourself with the latest situation (kotr1100) as well as my midterm report (see last post of Chancellor Reports thread), so we may have educated Electors when the time comes to propose and vote on Edicts.

And now, I declare this session of the Diet... open. *bangs gavel*

[Ignoramus]

Count Sigismund der Stolze stands up and quietly clears his throat.

Noble electors, we cannot allow the arrogant city-state of Milan to to expand her borders. News has reached me that the city of Dijon has fallen into her greedy hands. I tell you this plainly and simply; Milan must be destroyed! As of yet, she has no castles with which to train soldiers, and as such her armies consist of a rabble of peasants and milita - no match for the Reich's soldiers.

I humbly offer myself for the task of reducing Dijon. I cannot allow these Italians to openly defy the Kaiser any longer.

I therefore propose the following:

Edict 2.1: The Milanese city of Dijon is to be captured during the second half of the Chancellor's reign. Milan and Genoa must be captured before the end of the next Chancellor's reign.

[Ituralde]

Conrad von Schüsselen had not been seen a lot in the Diet during the recent years. Rumours had it that his illness has weakened him further and fits of coughing accompanied by seizures have troubled the Elector of late.
As he stands before the Diet now he has to support himself on an elaboratly carved waling stick. His voice has grown thinner, but his gaze is as austere as ever. He has to clear his throat noisily before he speaks:

Dear Kaiser, Dukes, Electors!

He bows deeply.

Let me congratulate our beloved Emperor for his successful reign as Chancellor so far. With the help of our valued Nobles we were able to secure many a settlement that had been lost during our recent struggles. I firmly beleive that this man will bring the Reich back to its former glory giving his antecessors a huge powerbase to work with. Once more the Holy Roman Empire will extend its influence over all Christians!

It may not come as a surprise to you that I can agree with the intentions of the Swabian elector, as I share his hatred against the Milanese. Alas, I don't beleive his strategy to be the wisest choice though. As he rightfully mentions Milan can boast no strong fortifications, yet! Already their troops are marching through Swiss passing the castle of Bern on their way to Dijon. By all means we must not allow them to get control of this castle. Leave Dijon to worry our French neighbours, I say, but let's concentrate on splitting the Milanese in half by capturing Bern castle. This will make all further moves against the Milanes much easier for us.

I propose Edict 2.2: Send Sigismund to capture Bern castle. His attack on Metz has proven his valour and strategic skill, surely Bern will pose no obstacle for him.

Now, to come to our Emperors midterm report I noticed some issues that should be adressed by this Assembly.

I have to agree with Heinrich that we should follow our Council of Nobles suggestion and take Breslau as soon as possible. This will bolster our borders against the Polish and the florins will be much needed for our treasury.

I propose Edict 2.3: Besiege and Take Breslau within the time frame set by our Council of Nobles.

There are also some things I have to disagree though. We should under no circumstances break our word against the Venetians. I have said before that we should not give our word away lighty. We have agreed to ally with Venice and should stand by that word and not take the first opportunity to break it to statisfy our need for Italien riches. The greed of this Assembly appals me sometimes.
Let us wait instead, those treacherour dogs will sheme against us soon enough giving us reaon enough to strike at their lands.

Thereby I propose Edict 2.4: The Alliance with Venice is not to be broken, unless a dire reason is supplied by the Venetians.

Another matter I would like to bring to the attention of this Assembly is the allocation of settlements done by our wise Emperor. It seems though that he has overlooked the services the House of Austria has done for the Empire in not granting us a single fiefdom. Duke Leopold is besieging Prague as we speak and still our Emperor grants Italian lands to the Bavarians. Have they not already two fiefdoms under their control? Even were the House of Austria to combine with the House of Swabia we still would only control as much land as Bavaria controls now.
I see that other Diet suggestions have been followed by our Emperor and Metz and Hamburg have been assigned to Swabia and Franconia respectively. Why has Florence not been given to Austria too?
It may seem that our House is willingly held back from the glory it could achieve. I'm saddened by these events and can only hope that Heinrich will reconsider.

Conrad von Schüsselen looks around the Assembly, his look a mix of sadness and defiance, before settling down.

[pevergreen]

You, my dear cousin, would believe this Diet is greedy? Shame on thou!

We have-eth trouble in these troubled times in providing buildings to keep our people alive, and yet you complain of greed! I am doing my part for the community, visiting far out towns, and paying for pleasure girls. I enjoy those community trips!

I formally Second Edict 2.1, 2,2 and 2.3

Ah, 'tis good to be back!
Lothar steps down and wanders around greeting friends.

[TinCow]

I agree with the Second Elector of Austria's sentiments on the strategic importance of capturing Bern prior to any actions against the Milanese. The castle is an important choke-point in the Alps and it will prevent any counter-strokes against the Reich, as well as provide an additional recruitment base for our armies.

However, I cannot second this motion as it is worded. It has not gone unnoticed in the House of Bavaria that all other houses have been granted military commands. Yet to this day, no Bavarian elector has been given the honor of such a distinction. This is not an insult as it stands, as the use of Franconian electors in the north, Swabian electors in the west, and Austrian electors in the east is certainly of the best strategic sense. However, with Bern so close to Bavarian territory and military commands having been denied to Bavarian electors, any march on Bern without a Bavarian in command cannot be seen as anything but a direct insult to our House.

As I am sure this is not the intention of the Kaiser nor the Diet, I propose a more properly worded edict:

Edict 2.5: Bern is to be taken before the end of the current Chancellorship. A Bavarian elector will be given command of the army assaulting Bern.

Regarding the disposition of territories, it seems clear to me from the Kaiser's former statements and the current strategic situation that the lack of a provincial assignment to Austria is entirely due to the delay in taking Prague. Given the previously expressed geographic preferences of the Kaiser, Prague could surely not go to any other House than Austria. It is thus worth noting that it is due to the Duke of Austria's own caution in assaulting the city, that it is not yet available for distribution to your most noble House.

Furthermore, while the province of Bolognia is welcomed by the House of Bavaria, it is a largely empty gesture. It is not currently contiguous with our lands, we have no way to support it, and we have no elector available to govern it. Thus, Bolognia provides absolutely nothing to the House of Bavaria at this time.

However, given our lack of commands, the House of Bavaria understand the concerns of the House of Austria and is sympathetic to them. We will support all reasonable efforts that the House of Austria puts forward to ensure that they receive an equitable distribution of lands. Let us not let the independant actions of the Kaiser create a wall between us. Bavaria and Austria have always been friends and it is our desire to strength this bond, not weaken it. We will need the combined strength of both our Houses to deal with the Italians and the Papal Usurper.

[OverKnight]

Mein Kaiser, Prinz Henry, and my fellow Electors.

I will second edict 2.5. I am grateful and honored that the Kaiser has placed Bologna under the rule of Bavaria, but we must prove ourselves worthy of this gift on the field of battle! The other houses have shown their valor in crushing rebels for the Reich and I am most eager for Bavaria to join them!

I assume my good friend Conrad von Schusslen proposed edict 2.2 to keep the newest member of the royal family occupied so that he would not march on Dijon, as Sigismund sought in edict 2.1. South rather than west, eh Conrad? Still, I will second edict 2.4. I would like not to be known as an oath-breaker. But I have already spoken about my views on our alliance with Venice in the Diet and will not bore you repeating them.

Now, if we are to talk of war with Milan, wouldn't we need an edict for a declaration of war? The Kaiser has also proposed that we cancel our treaty with Venice and seize their lagoon city for our own. War with them would also require an edict. I do not believe the time is ripe for war against either of the merchant states, much less both of them. They shall be ours, but the remaining rebel settlements on our borders should come first! If we do not take them, someone else will! I second edict 2.3 and I propose:

edict 2.6: Besiege Stettin as soon as possible, and assault it within 20 years (10 turns).

We should pluck the lowest fruit left on the tree before climbing to the higher branches.

Thank you my lords.

Edit: [OOC] I proposed a duplicate edict for Breslau.

[Lucjan]

"It is good to see our electors so eager to engage themselves once again in the Diet proceedings." Dietrich, making his way to the center of the Diet floor from his seat and rubbing his chin in contemplation, took a deep breathe as he looked around the room. It was strange being back in the Diet not just as an elector, but as a member of the royal house. His marriage to Agnes had elevated his station, but he stood among these men as equals, and as he looked about the room full of familiar faces, he smiled. "And it is good to see so much enthusiasm in guiding the Reich towards the greatter glory of the future, but I must urge caution in our pursuits from this point onward. We are now bordered on all sides by Kingdoms who, for all intents and purposes, have the same goals in mind for their people as we do for ours. So, I feel I should put forth my strategic review of the situation as we stand now, before making any comment or suggestion of edicts.

Firstly, in the south. I believe that while we have secured the necessary settlements in northern Italy to make our claim to the peninsula a valid one. We do not yet have a significantly favorable enough standing in the eyes of the Pope to blatantly declare war on Milan without incurring gruelling trials that accompany an excommunication. Milan is Christian and Italian, therefore, the Pope has every reason to be dually sympathetic to their cause, and not ours.

While we're on the topic of Italy, it has also come to my attention that a band of brigands are causing unrest south of Florence. Before any options can be considered to expand our position in Italy, we must make sure our position there is secure. Doing this means quashing rebellion before it spreads, and making sure that our rule is recognized as law, not suggestions.

In regards to Venice, and essentially edict 2.4, I must express both praise and reservations in with this proposal. It would wholy irresponsible to place the Reich in such a position as to be the betrayers of this treaty. We would see excommunication faster this way than by waging open war on Milan. I must agree that our word should not be given lightly. We are the leaders of the Christian world are we not? Then let us set an example. We must maintain our alliance with Venice until they break it. Let them take the fall for a move we have long anticipated. However, I cannot support this edict in it's current form because it advocates ourselves breaking the treaty in a "dire" circumstance. Proper maneouvering and use of the careful eye we've established to watch Venice will negate the potential existance of any such circumstance. If this edict is alterred to advocate only retaliatory action against Venice once they have broken the treaty, it will have my full unmitigated support.

Further west, we come to the question of Bern. Well, I feel there is actually little question here. There are many here who want Milan back under the Reich's authority, and antagonizing them by taking Bern before them may well be the way to starting that war without sullying our own good name. I have advocated the conquest of Bern anyway for simple strategic reasons. As for Bavaria leading the charge, I see no reason why brother Otto or Steward Mandorf should not be given the chance to prove their mettle. Therefore, I second edict 2.5.

To our most noble House of Austria and the situations in Prague and Breslau, I think Leopold's err on the side of caution may have been for the best. It will give us more time to bring reinforcements to Prague to keep the peace while the good Duke himself moves on after Prague's fall to extend the Reich's reach to Breslau.

As far as the north goes, I must continue to urge calm in regards to the Poles. There are many here that would try to paint these people in the same light as the Italian fetchers to our south, but there is no man here who knows more about these people than I. It is, after all, Franconia who bears the border with these people, and my f... Dietrich's voice trails off, as if he were going to say something then stopped. He shakes his head and continues.

I must propose an alliance with these people to maintain that we are not beset on all sides by war because of simple misinterpretations that could otherwise have been avoided. Therefore, I set out edict 2.7, an alliance should be offered to Poland as soon as possible.

Securing an alliance with these people will secure our position in the east against the Magyars and these Russians we're hearing stories of in the north, as well as giving us a friend in our ever growing sea of potential enemies.

I must draw attention to the Danes though. Those slimy sea snakes have used their longboats to circumvent the land block taking Hamburg provided against their expansion and they've landed in the low countries. Word has it that Antwerp has fallen to their raiders. A close eye must be kept on them, and work must be done to take Stettin before they can surround Hamburg on both sides. While this does deal with edict 2.6, I feel this edict does not push the urgency of the situation enough to truly represent our needs in the north. If the wording were changed to conquer Stettin as soon as possible with my proposed force, it would have my full support. By my calculations, Stettin could be secured with little effort, and our information reports that the Danes have no significant force of any kind within many years march of Hamburg, leaving the castle in no potential danger during this expedition.

I would require the following forces to accompany me and my retinue to take Stettin within the next 10 years (5 turns). Two regiments of mailed knights, these already available at Hamburg, four regiments of peasants, two of which are already available at Hamburg, and three regiments of mounted sargeants. This is an easy take gentlemen, do not overlook this oppertunity to stifle Denmark's growth and gain ourself the most lucrative potential trading hub in the Baltic. Converting Stettin to a city would net us huge profits in the Baltic sea trade.

There may be some question as to my request for large amounts of cavalry. The answer is simple. Swift deployment. Franconia is considerably isolated from the other houses and surrounded by potential enemies. We must have a force capable of rapid deployment from Hamburg that could reach Stettin or Frankfurt in swift time should the need arise. A rapidly deployable cavalry army would give us exactly the kind of force we would need to relieve any potential siege to Stettin, Frankfurt, or Hamburg. And you all know my affinity for cavalry command. I do not disappoint.

This action would, to show that I am not naive and overly trustworthy of the Poles, also allow us to surround Magdeburg in all aspects of the word pending the fall of Prague and Stettin, while Breslau would be a boon too, it is not mandatory to the encirclement of Magdeburg. I must reiterate the trust I have for the Poles, but I am not foolish enough to not have a strategy in case worse comes to worse.

May I also remind this Diet that any edict passed to conquer a rebel settlement becomes null and void if that settlement is taken by another power first. A direct declaration of war must be passed in the diet session to instigate a war on any of our neighbors with one exception. Our noble houses may declare war on any foreign forces they deem to be entering our territory on a mission of conquest without the approval of the diet. This, of course, being for emergency measures.

Dietrich nods to the Diet as he finishes his speach but stops halfway back to his chair.

"Oh, and one more thing. Could somebody be so kind as to send a learned physician to Frankfurt? There's a priest there by the name of Eusebius von der Pfalz who seems to be afflicted with a rather peculiar deformation. Quite frankly I'm not too fond of going anywhere near the man, who knows if it's catchy." Dietrich returns to his seat, patting his chest on the way with a rather disturbed look. He shudders as he sits.

[Ituralde]

Conrad raises quickly after Dietrich von Saxony has spoken and raises a finger.

I may have voiced some of my Edicts not as clear as I had intended.
Edict 2.4 was meant to entail that any aggression against Venice should be started by them. I'm sorry if my description of 'dire reasons' has led to confusion. I think we are of one mind here Dietrich.

Also the army command for Sigismund should not be mandatory and I can fully understand the House of Bavaria's desire to prove their worth on the battlefield. I will second Edict 2.5. Still Edict 2.2 will remain to be seconded, I would not want to curtail the House of Swabia on this matter.

I trust the House of Franconia in judging the North and the Danes and will therefor second any Edict Dietrich proposes for a swift taking of Stettin.
Concerning the Poles I will have to discuss this with my advisors, as Austria seems to be entangled in the East now where my own knowledge is scarce ,rather than Italy.

[Ignoramus]

Count Sigismund again rises to his feet.

I am pleased that our Bavarian friends are eager for battle, but surely if we intended to strike at Milan we would send them to conquer that city itself, rather than sit at the walls of Bern. For, if we leave the Milanese to themselves they will wax stronger, and that we cannot allow. Therefore, I humbly urge this Diet to attack Milan with all haste.

As of my opinion on the edicts that have been proposed so far:

Edict 2.1: I have decided to withdraw this edict, bowing to the superior wisdom of others. I realise that though a threat, Dijon is not as important as some other towns and castles.

Edict 2.2: I will only second this edict if the Diet thinks that I am the right noble to conquer Bern.

Edict 2.3: This is a sensible edict, and as such I second it.

Edict 2.4: For shame, noble electors! Would we treat our own word so lightly? Where is our honour? I cannot support such a shameful deed, and I am apalled that anyone honourable should support it.

Edict 2.5: Again, I must refrain from seconding my edict until later in this session.

Edict 2.6: Another sensible edict; Stettin is a valuable Baltic port and yet again thrawts the attempts of the Danes.

Edict 2.7: Perhaps we ought to wait a while, lest the Poles try to prevent us taking Breslau and Stettin.

[OverKnight]

My lords,

The intent behind edict 2.6 was indeed to take Stettin quickly. By besieging as soon as possible we could lay a claim on those rebellious pagans that the Danes or the Poles could not contest without attacking us. Once besieged the intent was to give the army commander the flexibility, to a degree, to determine when to assault the settlement. I did not wish to dictate tactics from the Diet chamber, only strategy.

Still, the Duke of Franconia will most likely be that army commander, and if he wishes to have more of a challenge and to free his army earlier so he can move onto Breslau, than I shall rephrase the edict. The Duke and I are also of a similar mind when it comes to seeing the potential of turning this small castle into a trading port.

Otto clears his throat and speaks again:

Edict 2.6: Stettin shall be taken in 10 years (5 turns), the Diet recommends that Dietrich von Saxony lead this attack and be assigned the required troops.

I am not comfortable dictating what troops we should recruit. If Governors have sole authority over what they build, shouldn't the Chancellor have sole authority over which soldiers he recruits?

As for an alliance with the Poles, I will second edict 2.7. On our other borders we have some natural barriers, the Rhine, the Alps and the sea, but not in the east. A friendly, or at least a nonbelligerent, power would be welcome there. I have my doubts about whether they will accept, particularly if we beat them to Stettin and Breslau. Still, it is worth the effort.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich is slow to respond to Otto's final comment, turning his words over in his mind before determining the prudent responce.

I have a fair degree of confidence in how the Polish mind works. Extend the alliance to them, I see no reason why they would decline. They sit at a tenuous position between us, the Magyars, and the Russians further north. Their conquest of Magdeburg was probably a nervous reaction as an attempt by some of their nobility to secure an early defensive position because of our swift expansion and slowness in extending an early hand of friendship. Just as our nobility have offered rewards for the conquest of lands, so do theirs.

Were we in their position, I'm sure we'd do the same. Let us, instead, offer these people our good graces.

As far as edict 2.6, I can second it in its current form. I'm sure father and I can work out a fair agreement on the composition of the soldiery.

[Braden]

Leopold had entered the chambers during the last two speeches, muddy and clearly tired from the road. He now sits nodding to himself before rising to address the Diet.

Electors,

I see no reason why we should not at least reach out with an olive branch of Alliance and trade to the Poles. I am a cautious man and slow to trust, as yet the Polish have done nought to suggest they will not be valued allies and if we envisage a conflict in the near future with Hungary it would be very prudent to attempt to secure the North East if we are to fight a war in the South East of Europe.

A few choice alliances now, are vital as I foresee trouble from the Norsemen as well as Hungary and Milan ahead of us. Both the Danes and Milaniese are great traders and have access to funds the like of which we will not see for a few years yet, hence we are at a disadvantage on the battlefield.

I do not doubt the skill of our generals, only the ability of our peasant armies to repel a professional enemy force. Even now my army besieging Prague face a militia of greater training than our own, better paid, better armed and better trained. I have no doubt that I will prevail and take the city soon but it is a wake-up call to me to see a REBELLIOUS state have sufficient income to field troops so far more professional than our own.

[Kagemusha]

The fifth Elector of Swabia enters the Diet,asks for permission to speaks and starts:

"First we would like to say that the last few years have been good for the Reich.Many lands that were rightfully ours have been returned to the Empire.About the new edicts":

Edict 2.2: Send Sigismund to capture Bern castle. His attack on Metz has proven his valour and strategic skill, surely Bern will pose no obstacle for him.

"I second this edict and think that the Rebellious Swiss should be returned as part of the Reich.I dont see no reason to drag Generals from all the way from Bavaria to lead the effort when we have good Swabians nearby ready to handle the effort"


Edict 2.3: Besiege and Take Breslau within the time frame set by our Council of Nobles.]

"I agree that Breslau should also be taken and our Eastern Border secured.Altough if Polish will get there first.I dont think we should go to war with them for Breslau so hereby i would like to make:".

1st amendment to Edict 2.3: If captured by Polish before we should leave Breslau be.

Edict 2.4: The Alliance with Venice is not to be broken, unless a dire reason is supplied by the Venetians.

"I second this amendment.We are the Kings of Romans and should be men of honour. We should not go to war with excuses.No the Empire is no lesser kingdom that attacks others based on opportunism.When we go to war,we go to war becouse of the right reasons".

Edict 2.5

"I wont second this like i stated my opinion before.No need to bring Generals far when there are able men already close"

edict 2.6: Besiege Stettin as soon as possible, and assault it within 20 years (10 turns).

"We will second this edit also,but with same reservations as 2.3.Taking of Stettin should not cause war between the Reich and Poland"

edict 2.7, an alliance should be offered to Poland as soon as possible.

"We will second this edict.In my mind we should have good relations with our neighbours unless they themselves cause war with us."


The Fifth Elector of Swabia bows to all parties and sits down on his place.Others can see that his health is not what it was still few years a go.

[IvarrWolfsong]

Cardinal Peter Scherer stands from his tall wooden seat. He gently raps on the floor 3 times with staff of office and waits to be recognized...

First off my brothers, I wish to say that it brings me great joy and fulfillment to sit among you again. Once more I feel compelled to apologize for my absense during the last meeting of this distinguished body.

Now beforeI speak to the wise proposals at hand, I wish to address the issue of our Holy Father, Pope Gregory. We all know that his Holiness and our Reich have had diffrences of opinion in the past. Gregory, regardless of what may think of him as a man, is the rightful Pope and the instrument through which Our Lord speaks to us during our short time here on Earth. One would be well advised to put wrath and pride aside for the moments we spend in this world so that one would hasten his soul's reception into the Kingdom of Our Lord in the next.

As to the proposed edicts, I have this to say:

2.2 I support this proposal in it's desire to capture the fortifications at Bern. The Swiss have strayed and must be brought back into the fold. If blood must be shed, so be it. Their children will thank us for it in a generation. However, I withhold my support for this proposal in lieue of proposal 2.5.

2.3 Again I support the use of our forces to bring these people under the protective and benevolent rule of our Kaiser, may God bless him with long life. Currently, these folk have no lord above them. They have no stability. If these people are left to fester in such a state, they will surely engage in all sorts of unspeakable depravities too foul to mention in these hallowed halls. It is the duty and privlege of the Empire to bring order and security to these wayward souls before they succumb to the heresies that seem to flourish in the east.

The cardinal glances toward the Austrian electors

2.4 I am no friend to the Venetians. They love money more than brother, babe or Church. However, I agree with what so many here have said far more eloquently than I. We should not be the one's to play Brutus here. Instead we should let the Venician's greed for silver cast them in the role of Iscariot. Doing so will make our action appear just when we, in retaliation, drive the Doge into the sea.

2.5 Steward Mandorf's proposal seems fair. I know the valor of the Bavarian people and fires that smolder in their hearts. As a son of Bavaria, I share it, though I have chosen a different field of battle. It seems almost cruel to deny these men the chance to serve the Reich and to put their lives on the line for a chance to bring glory to the empire and the Kaiser! I support this proposal.

Additionally, the position of the Holy Father remains nuetral in the cause of Swiss independance. An attack on this settlement now will bring no reprecussions from Rome. Should we wait until Milan has seized it, we would risk Gregory's scorn. As I explained in my letter to this body at it's last meeting, our reputation is already poor in the Vatican and we should do what is possible to avoid throwing more tinder on the flames.

2.6 Of all the settlement in need of our protection and tutelage, none cry out so loudly as Stettin. How a nation of unbaptised pagans has survived in the Heart of Europe for so long long is beyond my comprehension.

The cardinal's voice grows louder and his face begins to redden with suppressed anger

Even the Norsemen are Christians, yet these Stettinvolk still revel in carnal orgies and make blood sacrafices under the moon! It is an affront to the Church! ((Loudly taps his staff on the floor)) It is an affront to the Reich! ((Taps his staff even more loudly)) It is our duty to put an end to the evil of that place and bring the people to the Glory of accepting Christ, Our Savior.

The blush of firey red that had flushed the Cardinal's face begins to fade and his voice returns to it's normal volume. He seems completely calm and ingarciating again.

Securing this Baltic Sodom will give us access to the sea and the rich trade that flows there. As we enrich the local's souls, they will enrich our treasury.

2.7 The Poles are good sons of the Church. They are like a pavis provided by the Lord to guard the heart of Europe from the hordes of the East. It is wise and noble of us to provide them our hand in friendship.

Now I would like to make a proposition of my own...

2.8 "Eusebius von der Pfalz and I, Peter Scherer, Cardinal, should travel to the region of Stettin to begin readying the populace for acceptance into the Church of Rome."

Such a missionary undertaking will no doubt bring glory to the Reich, especially in the eyes of the Holy Father. For this reason I ask that the move be made as an official Edict of this Diet.

Lastly, I would like to address the fact that while many new churches have been built by the order of this most pious and reverant Diet, we must consider that we do not have a great church building anywhere in the Empire. While the French build massive abbeys and the Italians bring greek architects in from the east to plan magnificent Basillica, the Reich has no true seat of Christianity as it exists in our Empire.

I understand that times such as these may call for a build up of financial and military structures, but please do not forget that the soul also needs a fortress of faith which inspires it and strengthens its resolve.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I would like to inform your noble lords that all the edicts currently proposed have been listed at the front of the Diet building (post #1). Where edicts already have two seconders, additional seconders have not been listed.

I would like to support Cardinal Scherer and second motion 2.8. In fact, I would like to go further. I believe more priests should be recruited to accompany the Cardinal and Eusebius von der Pfalz. Unlike Count Dietrich, I do not wish to cast aspersions on the ability of these two men of the cloth. The Cardinal is an inspirational figure and having met Eusebius, I can testify that the young man has a quite remarkable air of purity and goodness. But to convert a whole province of pagans is a mammoth task and I believe it requires more than a couple of men of the cloth to achieve in a reasonable time frame. When Stettin has seen the light, I am sure we could find employment elsewhere for our missionaries. My own attention has been drawn to the Holy Land and believe the day may soon come when men of the cloth can no longer abide the occupation of our most sacred sites to infidels.

I would suggest to Cardinal Scherer that he ammend his edict to include an instruction that at least two more priests should be trained and sent to accompany him and Eusebius.

[OOC: Priests get good traits if they convert non-Catholics quickly; more priests in a province means a faster rate of conversion and more chance of picking up good traits.]

More generally, I wish to support my father's proposed course of action for the second half of his term as Chancellor. I do not wish to see us embroiled in major wars without just cause. Given our central and dominant role in Europe, I fear war will find us soon enough anyway. When it does, if we are not entangled in an existing conflict with a major faction, we will be much more able to respond vigorously. While a move east does not favour my own House, Swabia, I see the logic in it - the road west is currently blocked by Milan at Dijon and the Danes at Antwerp.

I must study the other proposed edicts more carefully, but on first glance none causes me great displeasure.

[TinCow]

Cardinal Scherer, there is no doubt that you are a good and pious man. Your concerns for all of God's children are admirable and are worthy of high praise. Furthermore, your statements about Bern and Stettin are insightful beyond measure.

However, I am exceedingly disturbed by your statements regarding the Papal Usurper! *Mandorf spits on the ground and crosses himself.* The rightful Pope?! Since before the time of Constantine, the Pope was elected by pious and honorable men such as those who sit here in this very room. This was as God willed it and it cannot be otherwise.

Antipope Gregory, in an attempt to seize earthy power beyond that decreed to him by God, refuted this most sacred and holy of traditions and removed the entire body of Christianity from their divinely given right of choosing the Pope! In the place of this most just electorate, he gave the power to his own sycophants in Rome, ensuring that future tyrants like him would be placed on the Highest Throne. In his wisdom, Kaiser Heinrich initially opposed this injustice with all of his most righteous power. It was only due to the rebellion of many, now deceased, traitors to the Reich, that his attempts to restore the rightful order was thwarted.

We stand now, faced with this continued Satanic Tyranny... *Mandorf crosses himself again* ...that grows in Rome. Antipope Gregory has aligned himself against God and the Reich, for we are His chosen defenders on Earth! Your own statements show the Usurper's evil intents.

You say that if we attack Milan first, Gregory will support them instead of us. How true this is! *Mandorf begins to sweat profusely, his arms flailing around in wild gestures* Have you not forgotten that the Milanese have rebelled and thrown off the rightful rule of Kaiser Heinrich? The Antipope supports them because he wishes to gain dominion over all Italy as a step towards tyrannical control over all Christendom! The Milanese dogs are but a tool of Satan to be wielded against our most righteous Lord. If we bow our heads and submit to this unholy order, we too shall be doomed to burn for all eternity! It is our divinely ordained mission to destroy the Usurper and return the Papal throne to God!

*Mandorf sits down and wipes his brow with a handkerchief. For several minutes he continues to mutter quietly to himself.*

[Lucjan]

Brother Henry, I don't mean to cast an aspersion on any good man of the cloth, I'm just looking to his good health and the health of those he preaches to. I have no doubts about his purity or good intentions, I'm just concerned for his well being.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: On a procedural point, no closing date has yet been set for this Diet. In keeping with our practice of allowing three days for deliberation, we will close tonight at midnight (UK time). There will then be a 24 hour period of voting.

Electors who govern settlements should make sure they have posted build queues for the next Diet (10 turns) by midnight tomorrow.

[OverKnight]

Otto von Kassel again rises to speak:

My fellow Electors, the good Cardinal has spoken sensibly, I second edict 2.8. If Peter wishes to change the edict in light of the Prinz's comments, I will still support it.

Otto pauses and rubs his temples with one hand:

As for the legitimacy of the current Pope. . .I try to stay away from the internal workings of the church. Yet our empire has had a special relationship with Rome since Pope Leo crowned Charlemagne Emperor. Without the Pope we would not be a Holy or Roman empire, but without us the Pope would still be under the Lombard or Saracen yoke.

The investiture controversy has made relations with the Papacy worse, but are they irreparable? Pope Gregory is one man, he, like all men, shall die. Should we endanger our centuries old relationship with the Church for one man? I am just a soldier, I do not have the answers to these questions.

But the Pope, legitimate or not, has power. If we are excommunicated, the other Catholic nations of Europe will fall upon us, eager for any excuse for open war. Other nations will look upon us as we look upon Stettin, heathens and heretics who must be brought into the Lord's light. And if they loot, or burn, or pillage or set themselves up as rulers over us then it is God's will, or so they shall see it. For now, at least, we must be cautious in our dealings with Pope Gregory. We must continue the work of edict 1.1.

Otto pauses, speaking on religious matters has made him uncomfortable, he continues on a different topic:

This Diet session has only has a day left by my reckoning. I have reviewed the edicts proposed so far and my guess is, if passed, implementing them will only require about half of the Kaiser's next term! What is to be done then? Inactivity is a folly! Sleep is for the dead!

The Kaiser spoke of his plans in his report, but the Diet awaits his direction in this session. Please mein Kaiser, what are your thoughts? And if anyone else has edicts in mind you should speak now!

Otto takes his seat, glances over at his fellow Bavarian Electors, and again rubs his temples.

OOC: Edited to add more exclamation points.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia stands up and speaks:

"Mighty Kaiser, When i travelled here from Swabia i noticed the lack of watchtowers and patrols inside the Reich. Shouldnt we keep the Reich safe from bandits and know who are travelling inside the Empire?Therefore i propose:

Edict 2.9. Building of Watchtowers on strategig locations inside the reich.

Swabian Elector nods and sits down.

[Lucjan]

I find myself in agreement with the fifth Swabian elector. Keeping the reich from rebellion and heresy means keeping an eye on our lands. I second edicts 2.9, and, in the same spirit, propose edict 2.10 - The construction of watchtowers at strategic points on all our foreign borders should be accomplished whenever the extra funds and nobility are available to carry out these endeavours.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: I beg your sincere pardon, dear Electors, for my absence of late. I was tending to matters of the state.

As a general observer, it is clear to me that the Diet does not share my ambitions about expanding east. While this disappoints me, I will nevertheless go along with its decisions.

Gentlemen, the question is no longer whether we anger the Pope by going after another Christian nation. Our successes in the first half of my term combined with the agressive expansion programs of the factions surrounding us have prevented that. The question is now which nation we attack, and how much do we incur the Pope's wrath?

It seems as if the Diet is pushing for an attack on Milan more than any other nation. Fine. But must we limit ourselves? Poland currently blocks our path eastward and Venice south. You know that eventually we will come into conflict with them if we seek to regain the Empire's glory. In the previous session we all agreed that this alliance with Venice was temporary at best. Yet now you seek to make that alliance more solid? You seek to align with Poland yet at the same time push for eastward expansion? Make up your minds, dear Electors!

I second Edicts 2.8, 2.9, and 2.10.

I yield the floor.

[IvarrWolfsong]

Cardinal Peter stands and clears his throat. He seems ready to speak then stops and picks a piece of lint from his vestment and drops it to the floor, watching as it slowly descends to earth...

My good lords...

Let me first address the matter of the Conversion of Stettin. I will happily ammend my proposition! I thank the Lord that men such as our Prince sit in this hall. His gracious ammendment is more than I could have hoped for.

Let 2.8 read: "At least two priest shall be recruited from our dioceses and accompany Eusebius von der Pfalz and Peter Scherer, Cardinal, to the region of Stettin to begin readying the populace for acceptance into the Church of Rome."

As to the outburst of Herr Mandorf, he knows not what he speaks... perhaps a fever. I shall take his blasphemous words as an emotional outburst of a man not well... and not as the type of heretical speech that might cause a man to be put to the question.

I understand that the ability to speak freely here is of the utmost importance... the ability of this ruling body depends on frank and truthful oration. However, I will not sit here and listen to Our Holy Father be abused and debased by men who speak with rage in their eyes and wrath in their hearts. Before Hildebrand began reforming the Church, vice and immorality were rampant... why the "Bishop" of Nuremburg was not only married, but he was married to TWO women at the same time! Sodomites, freebooters and half-wit court fops could be Bishops if they had enough gold! Bishops actively warred on one another at the whim of their Princes because it was the Princes who apointed them. His Holiness has re-established order and righteousness among the clergy.

And know that when you speak to election as illegitimate you insult my office directly. Do you feel the College to be invalid? Am I and my fellow Cardinals conspirators in this vast criminal enterpise that is Pope Gregory's reign? Are you, Maximillian Mandorf, saying that you are more fit to elect the pontiff than a college of men who have embraced the Word throughout their lives? Men who have not done murder, who have spurned the pleasures of the flesh fro the ecstacy of the soul, who have who have given up their familial rights to join into the family of the Church?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Cardinal Peter, if you proceed with this amendment to Edict 2.8, then I will withdraw my support. Religion is important, yes, but I do not want to spend an unnecessary amount of money on the conversion of Stettin. Do you consider yourself not up to the task of preaching the Word of God alone?

[OverKnight]

Otto rises to speak again:

I will be brief as I have already taken enough of this assembly's time. I second edict 2.9 and 2.10. These are sensible precautions that can be accomplished when more pressing matters are not present.

Mein Kaiser, I apologize if the direction that this Diet has taken displeases you. However, you have not proposed any edicts yourself, and I'm not aware of any rules that would prohibit you from doing so. If you have a specific plan in mind, let us know. Your voice would carry great influence in this council!

Thank you my Lords.

Otto takes his seat.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Voting on edicts is now open:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=78296

In view of my father's intervention, I do wish to discuss whether we need to recruit more priests. Be in no doubt, fellow Electors, this issue is not about Stettin. It is much wider than that. A group of missionaries, tempered by experience in Stettin, will be a powerful asset to the Republic. I envisage sending them on, further east, to achieve more successes converting heathens. And ultimately, I see sending them to the Holy Land to prepare for our arrival there.

The issue relates to Maximillan's outburts and Cardinal Scherer's responses. The Pope acts as a restraint on the action of all god-fearing nations. The question is how do we respond to this? Do we ignore it and risk the wrath of all our fellow Catholics? I see no benefits to ignoring the Papacy, only risks and costs. That is one reason why I do not support any unprovoked war on our Catholic neighbours. And certainly not in this Diet, where the argument for a specific war has not been made.

The alternative is that we use the institution of the Papacy, by gaining influence with the Pope. This would be done directly by regular contributions as I proposed in the last Diet. And indirectly, by promoting our own Cardinals to positions of influence, as I have advocated may happen through sending many missionaires to Stettin and other godless places. If Cardinal Scherer achieves quick dramatic results in Stettin, his reputation for piety will rise and this may ultimately propell him into the Preferati or even beyond. Moreover, the young priests we recruit will also gain in stature and may join him as Cardinals, immune to heresy and capable of influencing the election of the future Pontiffs.

My own view is that we should use the Papacy, not ignore it. The rewards to working with Rome are substantial - for example, we gain the ability to launch crusades on our enemies and on infidels. With the Pope on our side, any would be invaders will be stalled or ostracised.

But if we are to use the Papacy it will cost us some coin. Regular gifts of around 100 florin every two years; the upkeep of a few priests. Electors, these are not large sums and it would be penny pinching if you vote for ostracisation for fear of spending a few hundred florin per annum. Religion has become a powerful force in the world of men - we ignore it at our peril.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia stands up after Prinz Henry and says:

"Truly i agree with our honourable Prinz and my Duke. We should have good relations with the Holy father. And as i see the speech of the Bavarian Duke.I think it is down right Heretic. We suggest that the Bavarian Duke to spend more time in Church of our Lord and search his heart to find the righteous path once again."

Swabian Elector sits down.

[Ignoramus]

Count Sigismund der Stolze stands up once again.

Noble electors, I will never let it be said that I am not pious or a true Christian, but I cannot in all good conscience support the Pope. The Roman Church, which is the mother of all churches, behaves more like a stepmother than a mother. The scribes and Pharisees place burdens on men's shoulders too heavy to be borne. They load themselves with fine clothes and their tables with precious plates; a poor man can seldom gain admittance.

Why then should we waste good Imperial gold on appeasing this pontiff who defies the Kaiser himself?

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector stands up and asks again permission to speak:

"Who are we to judge Gods plan?God see`s into men´s heart and works in mysterious ways. St.Peter was left in to the world to be the bedrock of Christians and who sits on his thrown is the father of the church and representative of God on earth. If we deny that we are not true sons of the Church. Where is the proof that Papacy is in turmoil? All i hear is hear say.Where is the proof. About the gold. Dont we leave gold to the church after the mes so our churches can look astonishing proof of our faith? As men leave gold to their parishes. Kingdoms and Empires leave gold to the Papacy as sign of their faith."

The fifth Elector sits down looking rather upset.

[econ21]

[Prinz Henry:] My good friend Count der Stolze, I did not say "support" the Pope. I said "use" the Pope.

We must distinguish between the office and its current occupant. I would certainly prefer to see Cardinal Scherer or another good German man of the cloth in the office, and indeed, my proposals are partly designed to that end.

But given that the office exists, I believe we should respect it so that we can use it to our advantage, rather than provide our enemies with another weapon against us.

As I have said, I do not believe we should attack our Catholic nations unprovoked, so I do not see the Papacy as a hindrance to us. If, as I fear, we are eventually subject to an unprovoked attack by our Catholic neighbours, good relations with the Papacy will provide us with several advantages. It may induce our assailants to cease their attacks; or it might expose them to excommunication and our crusades if they refuse to desist.

This is an age in which men are fired up by religious passion - we should use that zeal to our advantage, not get burned by it.

[TinCow]

It is indeed wise to exploit a weakness when it is revealed. Though I believe fervently that the rightful order should be restored in Rome, I am not such a fool as to think we can march our armies into the Eternal City without causing much strife to our homelands. I fully support the form of policy Prinz Henry advocates, but only after Pope Gregory is burning in the fires of hell! He has already excommunicated our Kaiser and has proved himself a fervent enemy of the Reich. We cannot pander to him nor grovel to him without losing a part of our soul!

Let him waste away and die, then let us use politics, trade, and any other resources at our disposal to gain influence in the Vatican. With influence comes power, and eventually the ability to restore the rightful order to Christianity.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich smiles, bemused at the current exchange, and leans forward in his seat. He fixes his gaze on the Steward of Bavaria.

Most surely our good Mandorf understands that at the moment the Reich is not excommunicated at all, we're simply not in the Pope's best of graces. As such, it would not be prudent to intentionally incur Papal condemnation by invading one of our Catholic neighbors without a cassus belli, without a reasonable, internationally recognizable cause for war. This would be wholy unwise.

My father used to recite a little saying. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." My point is that the Pope has excommunicated us in the past, and I feel we've all had our moment of ire for the man because of it, but let's not give him a reason to do it again. Instead, let us use his weapon to our advantage. Let it be said that the House of Franconia stands firmly beside the wisdom of the prince. You are wise beyond your years brother Henry.

[Ituralde]

With the votings concluded I'd like to take the floor once again to adress matters I consider dire for the House of Austria and the good of the Empire.

Conrad von Schüsselen bows respectfully to the assembled Nobles:

With the previous heated discussion concerning the representative of god in this world I have to align myself with our wise Prince Henry, he speaks true and his feelings mirror mine. We should not anger the Pope, not as Christians and not as Holy Roman Empire. We had our differences but honour prevailed and we were able to settle the conflict honouring timeheld traditions. Dear Elector Mandorfs outbursts do indeed worry me a little. He surely is a man as pious as any of us, but I fear he has not forgiven the Papacy for their recent actions. In the light of his statements, having him and the House of Bavaria in control of Bologna within striking distance to Rome, makes me worry indeed.

Which brings me to the next matter of the general allocation of fiefdoms in Italy. I still beg to hear a reason for the land distribution as decreed by our dear Kaiser. Those who know me, can testify that my interests have lain in Italy for decades no. I have fought along your Grace against the Italians many times and taken time to study them. To be honest I had hoped for at least a little fief on the peninsular to put my studies to use and enjoy the remaining years of my waining life. Alas, my wish has not been granted yet.
Furthermore I have to disagree that Edict 2.4 tries to establish firmer ties with Venice. It merely announces once again, that once the Empire gives his word it is not broken. We are all men of honour that surely stand to their word.

As mentioned before, Edicts have been passed once again, but a clear strategy for the further years has not been established. Maybe we should try to push our discussion in that direction. Maybe men of more widsom want to take the lead in this. I have taken up enough time of the Diet already.

Conrad sits back down again. He looks a little weaker than usual and his speech seemed to have drained many of his limited reserves.

[IvarrWolfsong]

Cardinal Scherer, having whispering in Latin to his attendants, again turns his attention to the Diet...

I beg your pardon friends and brothers, may I belatedly respond to our Kaiser's question?

Frankly, my Emperor, no I am not up to the task by myself. Even Our Savior used the apostles to spread the Word, and I am just a lowly sinner unworthy of the redemption He granted me through his death. The assistance of other men of the cloth will not only aid us in converting the pagans of Stettin, but will ensure there are well respected and pious men in the Imperial clergy who will, in time, perhaps, ascend to the College of Cardinals. I am getting old, and when I pass on the Reich MUST have a presence in the College.

However, I understand and applaud the Kaiser for his reluctanence to put any additional financial burdens upon his subjects. Regardless of whether 2.8 passes or not, I hope I may go to Stettin with his Highness's blessing.

Holding his mitre in place, Cardinal Scherer bows to the Emperor.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Elector Conrad, the reason that Austria was not allocated any settlements was because Prague was not taken in time for the midterm session. This is not me pushing the House in any way, it would just be rather ridiculous. I believe Steward Mandorf touched on the point earlier. Rest assured, you will have Prague and hopefully Breslau by the time of the next session.

Cardinal Scherer, I do understand your perspective, but please understand mine. I, unlike you, have not devoted my life to religion, which requires little thought towards any other subject. I have devoted it to leading, and when leading, several factors must be taken into account. Religion is a priority, yes, but it is not the number one priority. Successful management and expansion of a large Empire is, so I do not wish to needlessly spend money in one specific field unless it is of high importance. I wish you and von der Pfalz well on your mission, Cardinal.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich shakes his head, quietly disagreeing with some of the Emperor's recent statements, but making no vocalisation about them. Instead, he prefers to add this event to his own private insights. He wastes no time though in offering up his services to the cardinal, leaning forward against the table in front of him as he speaks.

"Cardinal Scherer, let it be known that, while Emperor Heinrich can spare little time himself in the pursuit of the Holy Roman Empire's spiritual necessities, there are many amongst this court whose time is much less taxed and abated by the ever growing list of tasks that leading our great empire requires. After all, is that not the purpose of the Dukes, the Stewards, and all others who serve the Emperor? To mitigate the stress of maintaining the Reich by offering up the task of governance in all its forms where the Emperor himself cannot personally be present. The servants of the Reich are not here simply to banter back and forth in the diet and deliberate on edicts and laws, but also to impress on the people the rule of our great leader in his absence. We are here to govern our cities, our castles and our people. We are here to lead our people to war in defence, in conquest, and in practice. We are here to oversee the growth of people's culture, their heritage, and their pockets! But not only that, are we also not here to ensure that every man in the Reich's lands has heard the word of the Lord, has pledged his spirit to God, and holds within himself a heart of true, spiritual health? Good Cardinal, worry not the Emperor with the matters of the local Dukes. You have my word that your passage through Franconia, and, once Stettin has fallen, your continued presence there, will be allowed every liberty and moment of my time that is required of me in order to spread the word of God to those pagan lands. Such good German men should not be deprived of the true faith, left by their neighbors to worship in the dirt the false icons of old, pagan gods and be deprived of the enlightened path that we walk.

If there is anything that you may need, just let me know."

Finished with his speech, he sits back up against his chair and crosses his arms. He feels content, believing that, if anything, the Cardinal will not leave the diet with too much of a sour taste in his mouth, and he may have salvaged them from Scherer returning to Rome with a completely poor opinion of the Reich.

[Ituralde]

It saddens me that you have misunderstood my desires once again mein Kaiser. I do not cherish the Eastern lands with their religious quabbles and uprisings. With their heretic and pagan ways. I'm not saying the House of Austria is not up to the task of appeasing those provinces and bring them fully into the Reich once again, but close to our borders and already within our grasp lie the rich, civilized and prosperous lands of Italy, yet you deny us any fiefdoms within those lands. Regional preference you say. Why is it that other Houses get to reap the fruits cultivated over centuries while we have to plow the barren fields that lie to the East?

My interest lies in Italy and I will not rest until the House of Austria gets its rightful share of rich Italian soil. I think I've heard from the House of Bavaria sentiments regarding Bologna. And you seemed eager to have Prague stormed immediatelly, rather sacrificing German soldiers instead of letting hunger, thirst and disease takt its toll. If Bologna is not to your liking and you'd rather prefer fiefs to the East maybe a mutual agreement can be reached? Surely this should be discussed by Duke Leopold and Duke Mandorf, I'm just showing avenues of opportunity here.

Conrad von Schüsselen casts a rather exasparated look around the Assembly before settling down. Ever since he had to leave the army in Italy due to his bad health his claims on Italy have taken a turn to the wors. If only he had been younger and able to lead a regiment of men for himself, capturing one of those rebellious cities personally, would he have been rewarded with the view across the rolling hills of Tuscany already.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Elector Conrad, I believe you yourself proposed the edicts which was a mandate for me not to conquer the parts of Italy and the east of the Adriatic that were to go to Austria.

Please do not go proposing edicts which deny your House territory and then complain that the Kaiser is not allocating that same House territory in the lands that he is forbidden to conquer.

[Ituralde]

Conrad von Schüsselen is shaking slightly and take several deep breaths. With control regained he rises and faces Emperor Heinrich:

I beleive you are referring to Edict 2.4, which merely states that we should not break agreements sealed by our word. Once the Venetians greed grows too strong and they attack us, I'd be last to oppose their complete annihilation and you should know that.

His frustration seems to have risen once more and he opens the mouth as though to speak further before closing it again.

I have nothing more to say on these matters.

He casts glances to his own Liege and the Dukes of Bavaria and surprisingly also Franconia, before returning to his seat.

[OverKnight]

Otto looks up at the mention of Bologna, he appears to have been studying a map. Rolling it up he stands and addresses the Diet:

My lords. Let me first reiterate that Bavaria is grateful for the gift of Bologna. I will not have others imply that we are not!

Otto turns his head to stare briefly at Conrad von Schusslen.

Perhaps we were surprised by the gift, but we were not ungrateful.

Otto pauses, tapping the rolled up map against his hand.

The question of "where do we go from here?" has been asked in this Assembly. The Diet wisely chose to subjugate rebel holdings before moving on to our more powerful neighbors. Soon, however, that work will be complete. What then? Before I answer let me show you this map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/843-870_Europe.jpg

This, fellow Electors, was the division of the Empire by the sons of Louis the Pious. After the death of their father they fell upon each other and the great empire of Charlemagne, father of Louis, which stretched from the Pyrenees to the Oder, was divided and lost. Eventually most of the Italian holdings were reunified with the Kingdom of Germany, and that is the Holy Roman Empire today.

What I propose is that we return the Empire to its former Glory! That we return to the golden age of Charlemagne, the first Holy Roman Emperor! That we take our rightful place as the leaders of Europe!

Otto pauses to draw a breath, and his voice returns to a calmer tone.

It is a very noble goal, but how do we do it? First, we must finish our consolidation of the rebel lands. Second, we must improve our standing with the Pope so that we may move unhindered against our fellow Catholics. Third, we must increase the size and quality of our military. Then, and only then, can we begin to take back our greater Reich!

The first move should be against Milan. As many of us have said, they have defied our authority for too long! We would be able to pin them between our forces in Italy and, I hope, our forces in Bern. We would take Dijon last so that the forces gathered there could continue on the next step, the conquest of France!

This will prove more difficult. I am under no illusions that what I propose will be easy. But with Dijon and Metz as bridgeheads we could launch a two pronged attack against them. Perhaps an alliance could be sought with England? Though that would leave Caen to them. Either way, with the men in this room I have no doubt we will be successful!

Ah, but I can hear our good Duke of Franconia ask, what of Antwerp? That will be our third step, war with Denmark. The taking of Antwerp will be the primary goal, with Jutland a target of opportunity. Granted it was not a historical part of the Reich but we must, at the minimum, mortally wound the Danes.

Otto rolls up the map.

What say you mein Kaiser and Lords of the Reich? This endeavor will be a hard, long struggle. I am not sure if I will be alive to see its completion. I realize no plan lasts beyond contact with the enemy, but it is a good frame to build upon. Shall we take our destiny? Shall we return the Reich to glory and dominion? I say yes!

Otto sits and awaits the reaction of the Diet.

OOC: Edited to substitute Oder for Danube.

[Braden]

Leopold, enters the chambers. As last time, clearly tired and dirty from the road.

I apologise for my appearance, but I feel I must do my utmost to attend as much of the Diet proceedings that I can whilst my forces besiege Prague.

Otto, I am indeed heartened by your proposal. I feel it is a pious and righteous goal for us in this room to work towards regardless of status. Perhaps we should all leave tonight and consider how best to achieve this goal, what armies we will need and how we must build our infrastructure to finance this worthy aim.

For my part, I have not been made to believe I have “failed” my father in not taking Prague immediately! On that point though I will have to say that the time when we will storm it is close, re-enforcements are nearly with my men and I grow confident that we will be victorious soon.

Conrad, please make note that certain “negotiations” are underway between Austria and other noble houses as to the outcome of our inevitable victories in the East but I strongly feel that the House of Austria will rise soon. We are without a Castle of our own, that is true but, as I have told you before, Vienna will be the “coin of the Reich” and we must work to further that aim for now.

With me I have the requirements for Vienna’s next building requirements and will hand them to my father shortly.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich sits, a wild smirk on his face. He's amused by something, but before he starts dully clapping his hands together it isn't quite clear what.

"A gracious attempt at peering into my head brother Otto, but a failed one." He says, standing. "It is firmly in my belief that, as a newly resurgent power, we are at this point our most vulnerable. While the ideas proposed by Bavaria are ambitious, and not without merit, I believe they are perhaps too ambitious, to the point where they put the Reich in more danger than good. No amount of florins could cast the Pope's eyes away from our engagement in a three front war against three fellow Christian kingdoms. And even if it could, it could not do so and still leave us with a single florin for our armies."

Dietrich stands upright pointing a finger towards the sky. "While God sits upon the golden throne in Heaven, we have charged ourselves with the task of taking up the mantle of his representatives on Earth! Some would charge us with rebuilding old dreams, rebuilding old empires, trying to ressurect the history of Charles the Hammer and make it our own. I would disagree. With the world we live in today, that is not possible."

Stepping down from the Franconian side of the diet he begins to walk, slowly, full circle around the diet floor, staring into the eyes of each and every diet member he passes as he speaks. "This plan would charge us with rebuilding an empire that disintegrated of its own volition, because of its own petty bickering and squabbles. You can point to the goodness and the grandeur of Charlse's Empire until you're blue in the face, but that does not change the fact that it was an empire that fell! Do you really want to model our resurgant strength after a kingdom that is historied to have fallen to petty infighting and domestic squabbles? I for one do not."

He stops, planting his hands on the desk in front of Prinz Henry and staring him in the face. "Brother, it is your father that begins our reconstruction, you who will carry it on, and your seed who will see us into the future! Shall you have us follow the course of fallen kingdoms and try to replicate the past, or will you help push us to a better future? A future where the world knows the Reich as the undeniable voice of God and the seat of Heaven on Earth, or will you let an attachment to nostalgia and falsely named "good old days" guide us to yet another loop in history's vicious cycle?"

Quickly stepping back and stopping in the center of the room, looking all around, he casts an open palm towards Bavaria. "This noble house has good intentions, and ambitious thoughts, but opening a book whose end has already been written to try and rewrite a few pages does not, in my eyes, deem itself to be the right path for the Reich, for us, for our posterity, for our history, or for our God!"

Falling silent for a moment, he looks around the room, taking note of the expressions on people's faces and the murmurs between electors. "I make my case now!" Dietrich, lowering his arms back down to his sides, begins to take on a much more somber tone. "First things first. The investiture crisis has left the Reich alone in it's feelings of being the rightful voice of the Lord. This new Papal authority holds absolute reign over the morale and religious values of the Christian world. No man here in his right mind can deny we have lost that power.

Secondly, we are an empire surrounded by Christians, who, should we take to offence too greatly for the Pope's comfort, will bear no qualms or pities for us in the event of an excommunication. We are all familiar with what happened during the last one. We are only now recovering the territory we lost to the rebellions, are only now beginning to make attempts at stabilising our Papal relations, and are only now beginning to come to grips with what to do in regards to our former territories that have declared themselves their own sovereign states altogether.

We cannot afford another excommunication, lest all of Christendom look to the center of the world, look to us, and raise their sword with vengeful hate for the atrocities they will claim we have committed against the followers of God.

Furthermore, we are the namesake of Rome, not Rome itself. Rome, and later Charles's empires had one great benefit in common. Their greatest enemies were far from powerful, unified states of equal size and power, and far more along the lines of disorganised, petty, infighting tribes, clans and fiefdoms. We have already seen this point in our history. We have conquered the neighboring rebels, the fractured people whose inclusion into the Reich makes for us the foundation of this new empire. Now we must discuss how to deal with the actual challenges that threaten us in this world. The world is a very, very different place than it used to be, than it was in our ancestors times. Our neighbors are strong, they are unified, they are rich, and they are every bit as cunning and courageous as we are.

I propose instead not to lay out overly grandiose visions for a future reminiscent of the past, and instead make our own future. I suggest we pave the way for a new Reich in the manner of a wise empire. Be patient, make plans, but do not overestimate ourselves, and take our oppertunities when they present themselves. Already there is talk of conquering all of Italy and all of France, and turning on the Danes in the meantime. But the fact stands that the vast majority of our men have barely a shield and the shirts on their backs to call armor. How are men such as this supposed to stand up the thundrous charge of mailed knights or repel an arrow with mere flesh and bone? How do we fund such campaigns when already our economy looks bleak due to underdevelopment of our infrastructure and trade?"

There is a stern look on Dietrich's face as he walks slowly back to his seat. "I must urge this diet to do one thing, as it considers what direction to take in regards to the future of the Reich.

Let wisdom guide you, and let your passion push you onward. Do not sail blindly into the sea with the most glorious looking ship at dock only to discover once you've set sail that the hull is incomplete, and you're taking on water before you've even left the port.

The next many, many years will be years of actions and reactions, by both our neighbors and by us. So think hard, and think clearly about what place you will hold in the Reich's history ten years from now, and what tragedy you can avoid by making wisdom the order of the day where brazen and thoughtless impulse would bring us shame.

I want to see this Reich begin its journey from the start with strong men, and strong council. To let blind ambition tear it apart in its infancy would be to deny our people their rightful heritage, their rightful place in the world. We have been denied this twice already when Charles's empire splintered and again with the Investiture crisis. I will not see us denied our place in the world a third time.

This is our heritage.

This is our birthright!"

With that, Dietrich ends his speach, empassioned and pleased with the points of patience, wisdom and oppertunity that he advocated throughout the rather lengthy oration.

[OverKnight]

Otto's expression becomes increasingly stern during Dietrich's speech. He makes a notation or two on a piece of parchment and then stands. Otto speaks in a voice void of its usual enthusiasm:

I would hear from the rest of the Diet on the plan I proposed, if they wish to speak, so I may respond to all comments at one time. Thank you my lords.

Otto sits.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia stands up and speaks:

"We welcome the words of Dietrich as true and just.If we are to stand above other Nations,the visions of the past and ambitions of Glory should have no place in our minds. As if we were building a castle.First we have to lay down strong foundation,then we can start building walls and towers that touch the sky. The Reich should not be a terrible Empire that sweeps over the land and puts all nations under its boot. Rather it should be the glorious beacon of light among christian nations,which all others look in awe and amazement.Let us leave the ambitions and agressive politics to lesser Nations and let them also be struck down becouse of those errors in their ways. "

Swabian Elector sits down on his place.

[Lucjan]

The words of the Swabian elector are welcome. The Reich will be leader of the Christian faith, and will be the most powerful empire in the world, but it will not be so by playing the role a blatant aggressor. We must take our time and act prudently. The glory of this Reich will surpass anything we have seen in the past, but not by modeling ourselves on the past. Why take to blatant aggression and be hated by our people and deplored by our foes? We can choose our battles wisely, pick our enemies cautiously, and instead be respected by our people and feared by those who would wish us harm. Do not forget, when dealing with an enemy, hatred will embolden him, but fear will make him cower.

Dietrich looks to the Bavarian electors. You are as much a part of this diet as I or any other man here, and for that I respect you. So speak your mind good electors, do you agree?

[TinCow]

Maximillian Mandorf nods to the Duke and rises. He stands in contemplation for several seconds before beginning.

I see wisdom in the words of both Elector von Kassel and Duke von Saxony. It does not seem to me that either of their plans is wrong nor in fact that they are even opposed to each other. Perhaps my perception of the situation would aid in a more agreeable view on the matter.

First, it is undeniable that the lands of which Elector von Kassel speaks rightfully belong to the Reich. We are the rightful heirs of Charles the Hammer, who was himself the rightful heir of the Roman Empire. Those Byzantine fops proclaim their own rights to the title, but they have inherited nothing both togas and decadence. The greatness of Caesar’s Empire lay in Rome and the western territories. We are the western territories. Though we have lost control over many of the provinces, our ordained rights to them have never ceased.

Some territories, like Milan, have recently rebelled against us and our right to them cannot be questioned. Others, such of England, have been lost to the Roman people for many ages. Indeed, the only lands to the west or south which we cannot lay valid claim to are those held by the Scots! All others are splinters of the Roman Empire. Do not forget that the title held by the noble Heinrich is that of the Roman Emperor himself. He is Kaiser because he is the rightful heir of Caesar. It is because of this very reason that he enjoys the divine right of Papal confirmation! That right was given to the Roman people, of which he is the supreme embodiment. We have lost Rome, we have lost many of the territories, but we remain Romans by right to this day! We have every right to reclaim our lands.

That said, it is also undeniable that there would great opposition to the Kaiser’s authority amongst our neighbors. Simply having hereditary rights does not endow the ability to enforce them. Accordingly, Duke von Saxony’s caution is prudent and should be respected. The great Augustus was not afraid to recognize the limitations of his power, nor should we be. War on three fronts would bring devastation to our lands.

Milan is rightfully ours and this cannot be disputed. I do not doubt that the Usurper in Rome will agitate against such a move, but those lands belonged to us not long before our last meeting in this very room! The only people who do not remember our rule in Genoa and Milan are babes, not yet able to take up arms. No just reason can be given to oppose our authority on these lands. The Milanese will certainly fight, but our liberation of those lands from the blasphemous bankers is assured once it begins.

Once these lands are consolidated and are again loyal to the Kaiser, we can turn our attention to our other lost provinces. We all know the Usurper will force all of Christendom to oppose us if we go against those who bend knee to him. So, Rome itself must be the first of the provinces we reclaim! This would also surely result in opposition or perhaps even war with some of our neighbors, but Gregory would soon lie dead and with him the Papal authority to oppose us. If we were then to assert our rights, put an approved man on the throne, and relocate the Papacy to an area deep in our homelands, we would surely have the proper Papal blessings for our future plans.

If the Diet is worried about war on multiple fronts, let us make good friends with the Dutch and the French! Let us send money to them to ensure the security of our borders, rather than funding the Antipope. Surely they would not attack close friends, even if they were encouraged by Rome. Besides, any monies sent to these areas would be used for improvements that would be ours eventually anyway! I do not believe such a course of action is necessary, but it is an option that should at least be considered. Indeed, we could even attempt to cause discord amongst the ‘Kings’ who control our provinces. If Denmark and France were pre-occupied with England, they would be of little threat to us.

We are Romans by all the rights of man and God, my lords. We should not forget this. It would be a noble and virtuous thing to reclaim the provinces lost to us for so long. Yet, such an endeavor will require much planning, more time, even more money, and vast amounts of blood. We should proceed slowly and with caution, striking when we are strong and using diplomacy when we are weak.

[Ituralde]

Loud clapping can be heard at the end of Mandorfs speech emenating from the ranks of the House of Austria.

"Wise words, Duke Mandorf, wise words. I have to agree with them completely!"

[OverKnight]

Otto can be seen scribbling furiously on some parchment. He had looked up when Maximillian addressed the Diet, and his eyes widened when the Bavarian Steward mentioned taking Rome. Otto places his quill down, stands and speaks to the Diet:

My fellow Electors, I apologize for my delay in my response, but I wish to speak as clearly as possible, and it took me several drafts of this speech to do so.

First, I will respond to the comments on my proposal to reunite the Reich. Duke von Saxony has implied that I would immediately send an unprepared army out on a fool's quest and then we would all be excommunicated. Let me respond by quoting from my original speech:


It is a very noble goal, but how do we do it? First, we must finish our consolidation of the rebel lands. Second, we must improve our standing with the Pope so that we may move unhindered against our fellow Catholics. Third, we must increase the size and quality of our military. Then, and only then, can we begin to take back our greater Reich!


These were the goals I set before we began reunification, this noble task would not start until they had been accomplished, I set no time frame. As for whether there are florins enough to have the Pope "indulge" us, I think there will be.

The Duke also mentions a "three front war". This is inaccurate. What I proposed was a series of one front wars, Milan, then France, then Denmark. Not all at once.

As for the accusations of nostalgia and raising lost empires. . .

Otto pauses, some of the restraint he has shown dissipates.

There are dreams worth rebuilding my Lord! There are Reichs that should come again! Maximillian speaks true, Milan is only recently lost to us, but should it always be so? The Capetian usurpers reign in France, with not one drop of Carolingian blood in their veins, should we allow this to stand because it has already come to pass? The Danes have taken Flanders in the last few years, should we let them tread upon our ancestral lands because they have the most recent claim? I say no!

The unified Empire fell not because of a military defeat but because Louis the Pious had three sons! The old Franks did not practice primogeniture as we do. Kingdoms were split among the sons, not inherited in full by the eldest.

Otto smiles sadly.

As a second son, I am regretfully aware of this change, but it is for the best. We shall not repeat that mistake. Our Reich shall not split. We shall not rebuild the old Empire, we will forge a stronger one!

Otto pauses again to collect himself.

You spoke well Duke von Saxony, but your wit was matched by your lack of specifics. How is this "new" Empire to work? What would be its goals? How would we accomplish them? Are we to sit within our realm until we are struck by our neighbors? . . .Yet, we both agree that the Reich must be readied before embracing its destiny, however we view it. Perhaps I speak too harshly. I apologize.

Otto turns to face the Steward of Bavaria

The audacity of what you propose in seizing Rome is breath taking my Lord! I know that Pope Gregory humiliated our Kaiser, making him stand in the snow clad only in a hair shirt for four days, just to gain admittance to see him and beg forgiveness, and that act of hubris sickens me! Yet, if we move against him the price will be high, very high. Even if we do put a pontiff more to our liking in power, they are rarely grateful for long. This is just one mortal man, powerful as he may be! Unless he provokes us with a new act, let him rot in the Lateran palace.

Thank you my lords.

Otto sits.

OOC: Edited for grammar and spelling.

[Lucjan]

There is a smile on Dietrich's face, he doesn't bother standing this time, he just speaks.

"You're counter arguments are well made and take the facade of direct rebutal to my statements, which would, to many men who could not look more directly into the nature of the rebutal themselves, seem a successful maneuver."

He stares at the elector for a moment.

"You have good potential to be a strong statesman, Otto, but maybe it is your youth that still troubles your understanding. Let me explain.

While you have, correctly, quoted yourself on your intention to consolidate our lost land, improve papal relations and the quality and size of our military before we embark on a reconquering of Charles's empire, you must understand the swiftness with such a task can be completed. Such a task could be easily completed within the next ten years, but, for the sake of arguement, let's make it twenty.

Assuming, in the next twenty years, we have accomplished these goals and then seek to retake Milan, there is a severe error in believing the world will not change around us. As I have stated, this is a whole new world than we've ever dealt with before. Times are changing, quickly. The world around us living, breathing, and reacting to every movement we make, the same way in which we react to every one of theirs. I leave you with this potential problem.

Firstly, we accomplish your goals within the next twenty years, the error there is that within the next twenty years, all of our neighbors will have done the exact same thing, and we stand to have no advantage over them that we did not have before. Then, secondly, we move on Milan. Where will the riches of Milan's trade routes have gotten them in twenty years? Far beyond the confines of northern Italy I'm sure, they already spread deep into the heart of Burgundy and the isles south of their mainland shore. But we attack them, regardless of their position in twenty years time. What happens then? If we score several successes, the Pope will see the tide coming, and will threaten us, if not outright declare, our excommunication. Excommunicated or not, Venice, the Pope, Sicily and France will directly stand to suffer from a stronger presence of the Reich in Italy. Venice, the Pope and Sicily being directly affected by our actions there, they stand to lose the most. If they feel threatened, they will strike when we are at our weakest, that point being immediately after our conquests, in the rebuilding process when our florins are diverted, our soldiers depleted, and our morale in that lingering state of relief that the battle has been won, but grief over the loss of so many friends. A war coming at this time against people previously assumed to be neutral, would be devastating to the resolve of our armies. Depleted regiments, defending battered cities, with no florins to spend on swift reinforcements, would be a disaster waiting to happen. You see, even in an intended "one front war", two or more fronts could swiftly open beside it. War is like a vacuum, it sucks everything in.

My ideas run contrary to yours only in that I believe we should be more careful and prudent in our choice of time and place to engage in foreign campaigns. Strike Milan when it's standing with the Pope is low, or excommunicated, hit them where they are weak or where we have superior strength and can stand to fight more enemies than we had initially prepared for. Do not overexpand too rapidly. Conquer, stabilise and rebuild, plan and reinforce, then move on.

You are also correct in saying that the Frankish Empire fell because Louis had three sons. Exactly as I said, it fell of its own volition. Louis chose to divide his empire, his sons chose to bicker and squabble over it. Louis's faith in his progeny was ill placed, and the empire fell of its own internal, familial squabbles. Brother no longer saw brother as brother, just as an unrightful neighbor. So, in this respect, are we not both correct?

You also said yourself, we will not rebuild an old empire, but a new one. Is this not what I have clearly proposed?

In regards to how this new reich will work and what its goals are, why change the workings and the goals from what they are now? I believe the intelligent debate that occurs in this diet is exactly the kind of debate that will be required to deliberate the runnings of a much larger empire, and why change our goal from being the leader of the Christian world? As far as accomplishing that goal I have already outlined that. Patience, prudence, wit and wisdom. Take our oppertunities when they present themselves, but don't go in over our heads.

As well, in speaking of the old Frankish lands. I have never said that these lands should not be taken into the fold of this new reich, only that when and if they are, it should be done as all our conquests should. Wisely. They are rich agricultural lands, and we will not be the only ones with our eyes on them.

The general reasoning for my urge towards caution and prudence is that we no longer have the safety Charles enjoyed. In his time there was no unified power in England, in Italy, in Iberia or in the east. We live now in a time where our actions can provoke an enemy on any potential corner of our borders, and in doing so, there is no guarantee that our expansion will swing one way or the other. It is entirely feasible that we may only ever retake a portion, or maybe none of Charles's old western lands, but may stretch across the whole of Italia and a conflict with Byzantium could arise out of our contradictory claims to the Roman title. Our resources could be sucked south, and our attentions focused in the Balkans instead. And then there is the holy land, which is sorely in need of being rescued from heretical control.

This talk of our expansion is, mind you, solely hypothesis and conjecture, they do not necessarily reflect my views or desires, but they are very real possibilities given the situations that can emerge.

It seems then, Otto, that the only point upon which we disagree is a definate goal for the reich's expansion. You say retake the old lands.

I say stick with prudence and take the circumstances as they come. We may well be able to retake Charles's lost lands, but we may also see an opening to expand into previously uncharted territory for the reich instead, and if that oppertunity arises we should take it, not ignore it in favor of throwing florins and lives away at a potentionally much more difficult undertaking.

My warning is much more of a deterrance to laying too many plans too early. For even the best laid plans last but a few seconds when the world is changing around us. Hopefully, now, you understand my original intentions."

[OverKnight]

Otto listens intently to Dietrich's speech. He mutters something under his breath, ". . .sounds like my father. . .", while he rises to speak:

Thank you for your response Duke von Saxony. I see your views more clearly now. I only hope that caution and wisdom do not turn into passivity and folly. I would not abandon the initiative to our neighbors, yet it would not hurt to watch and wait, for a while at least, for a moment of weakness.

As for being a statesman, God forbid! I would much rather have a sword in my hand and a saddle beneath me.

Otto chuckles to himself and sits.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich, still smiling, can't help but chuckle.

Brother Otto, what more is a statesman than a warrior who is also adept at wielding the quill? It's a compliment, trust me.

You'll have to forgive me if my speech sounds like a lecture, I was just trying to touch on all points.

As far as caution and wisdom turning into passivity and folly, well, even I have a more anxious sword arm than that. And I imagine we'll all be given the oppertunity to use them soon enough. Besides, it would make me a fool to do all this lecturing on striking only when the time is right, then watching that time arrive only to do nothing when it presents itself. You can trust the lust for valor and honor to get the better of me when the time is right, as I believe I can trust that from all of you.

Oh, and Otto, I hope this little misunderstanding wasn't taken too harshly. I will be looking forward to meeting you and Steward Mandorf in the near future.

[AussieGiant]

Gru&#223; Gott Mein Kaiser, esteemed Lords of the Reich,

Due to a small administrative matter in Vienna during the week, I would like to introduce myself as the new 4th Elector for the House of Austria.

Unfortunately my predecessor Lothar von Austria has had to take an unexpected leave of absence.

So with those administrative duties completed I would like to echo my Liege Lords concerns regarding the east.

Without a regional castle in the near future, I fear for our ability to exert and maintain influence against the Poles, Viennese and Magyars will be tenuous at best.

With our expansion opportunities against rebel provinces now completely exhausted due to the Keiser confirming Breslau has fallen to the Polish, any further eastern expansion by the House of Austria will be at the expense of our neighbours. Doing this with Militia and peasant archers will not bring results in an offensive war.

Additionally if things turn defensive, I’d like to draw the gentlemen of this Council’s attention to the map on the wall behind us.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/KOTR/Map/KOTR009.jpg

If you would please note the distances needed to rapidly respond to any future threat from our current castles in Innsbruck and Staufen…that is some distance is it not?

I am entirely sure Prince Leopold will capture Prague, however the fact that he needs to conduct an unorthodox assault should not be lost on anyone gathered here today. Some here have made remarks regarding the delay in taking Prague but, having read the reports I can only say Prince Leopold is an astute and gifted commander given the situation. The fact that rebel settlements are fielding superior troops must be of concern to all.

I realise the expense, but I believe we must seriously consider our general position on this matter. Most, if not all Houses have a regional castle…if we don’t pursue this in the east…then…well…lets just say property prices might start dropping in Vienna soon.

Given most of my esteemed colleagues here have summer holdings in wonderful Vienna, that can’t be good for anyone…can it?

I would propose a more aggressive covert solution for the moment. That being spies for the regions of Venice, Poland and Hungary. The border towers are excellent, but static. We would have a much better chance of responding both tactically and strategically if we knew more about our 3 eastern nations.

Finally, I’d like to commend the Kaiser on his selection of wine. It really is excellent here in the Diet, far superior to what I am used to in Vienna.

[OverKnight]

Otto looks up from desk and rises to answer the new Elector:

Greetings Fourth Elector of Austria, welcome to the Diet!

You raise a valid point, the closest Castle to Vienna and Prague, may God grant it to us, is Innsbruck. As Castellan of Innsbruck I can assure you that troops raised and armed there are available to the entire Empire, not just Bavaria. Even now we near completion of a Smithy, which will make the Sergeant Spearman we arm the finest foot soldiers in the Reich. Yes, they are few years march from your frontiers, but I'm sure the Kaiser will see to deploying them before they are needed. If we are caught flat footed, may I suggest we could recruit routiers, mercenaries, to fill the gaps until the Castle trained reinforcements arrived.

I know this is not an ideal solution for Austria, but the alternatives available are less desirable. Your House would be within it's rights to convert Vienna or Prague to a Castle. However, that new fortress would only be able to arm and recruit peasant rabble and a few knights until better quarters were built. Considering that spear militia from either city would be superior to peasants and that we would lose revenue from converting the Town, it would be a poor trade.

Other Castles in the area, such as Magdeburg, already belong to other powers as you pointed out. I would advise patience. It can be a bitter pill, but sometimes it is necessary. I'm sure the Kaiser has this situation well. . .

As Otto is speaking a messenger arrives in the Diet and runs up to him. They speak in urgent whispers. He claps the messenger on the shoulder and sends him running out of the chamber. Otto turns to address the Diet again:

Pardon me my lords, I must leave! The next time we meet I hope to give you good news! Farewell!

Otto turns and sprints out of the chamber yelling for his horse to be saddled.

[AussieGiant]

Greeting to you von Kassel, thank you for such a prompt response to my inquiry. Although, as you have now left and I am essentially speaking to a rapidly closing door, I'll address my follow up comments to the rest of you.

von Kassels words are both concerning and comforting.

I am greatly appreciative of his immediate support of troops should our eastern borders be threatened in anyway.

However he did say it would take “Years” for these troops to arrive…now that is sobering.

This is certainly not ideal for Austria as he has mentioned. Or might I add, for the Reich as a whole.

In my deliberations it comes down to this. I realise that converting either of our holdings into castles would not be beneficial to the realm as a whole. However, for our own immediate well being we must have a solution in the east.

I ask our Kaiser and the gathered Lords for their opinions on the matter?

As I have just arrived…can someone please tell me were von Kassel is going in such a hurry??

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: I welcome the new Fourth Elector of Austria, may he bring much honor to his house.

Sir, I am very much aware of your concern. Austria is indeed somewhat cut off from the rest of the Reich, but as Elector von Kassel has just stated before he left to take Bern, you will not be alone in this fight.

The way things are shaping up in the east, it seems that we will soon see ourselves in a conflict with Poland. Two armies are already in that theater, one commanded by Duke von Saxony and the other one by Duke Leopold. In addition, as you most likely know, watchtowers are present on Vienna's southern and eastern border, allowing us to see far. Once Prague is taken, I also intend to place watchtowers on the borders, as well as our spy into Polish territory.

Rest assured, Austria shall not be lightly abandoned or even surprised by the enemy should the worst come.

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Stolze slowly gets to his feet and adresses the new Austrian:

Greetings, noble elector of Austria, I am sure that your presence here at this Diet will be beneficial to the Reich.

You speak about the vulnerability of Austria; it is true that she does not, as yet, have a castle in her realms. Surely that, however, is up to Duke Leopold, is it not? Your point, however, is a valid one and I am sure will be appreciated by the Diet here assembled.

I know that the Poles threaten our borders. Why then, did we foolishly sign an alliance with these people? Surely the elector who proposed this edict must have been misguided in his sincere attempt to benefit our Reich. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that brave Austrians and Franconians will beat back the foe.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich looks aggitated as he stands to engage Sigismund's blatant insult.

"I am far from misguided, nor am I foolish. If anything, you, young knight, are misinformed. I am not convinced that Poland truly desires war. I am staunch in my belief that they desire peace, but there are other forces here in the Reich who it seems are working against this. I still believe they are making a simple, predictable responce to our own swift expansion as a precaution to protect themselves from, what they, as earnest Papal follewers, feel is an uneasy situation developing in the Reich. The Pope does not trust us, and his distrust spreads such words to the ears of all Christian men, and makes us look like enemies to the faith.

Let me backup my claims.

Firstly, we have strong garrisons in Hamburg and Prague, a deterrant to any potential action by the Polish.

Secondly, the Polish have responded to our forces in Hamburg and Prague favorably. Their own garrison in Magdeburg consists of a single unit. How could we expect war from such a pitiful force? Like I have said, they are there because Poland fears us, not because they want war. It's a precautionary measure, meant to slow down an assault. It's really a very simple tactic, but an effective one.

Thirdly, Kaiser Heinrich has not yet sent a diplomat to Poland in order to negotiate the alliance the edict requires, so we, as of yet, have no alliance with the Poles, one they would surely accept.

My concerns are not limited to this, but the Emperor has also failed to fulfill edict 2.6. We are six years into the second half of the Emperor's term already and yet he has consistently held me at Hamburg despite the edict's time frame, and has informed me I will not be receiving the requested units, which, compared to the allotment given to our other generals, was a pittance. In four years time we could have marched, and by 1110 Stettin would have been ours. Instead, we're being forced to sit around in Hamburg, waiting around and doing nothing. For what purpose? We cannot reach, besiege, and take Stettin in four years, it's not possible. Perhaps, given the order to march immediately, we can reach Stettin before the Danes set their sights on it, and before too many years past the edict's required date. Then, perhaps this issue can be overlooked.

However, my immediate concern is the purpose for holding me back. Kaiser Heinrich has pushed for war with Poland, and held me back from Stettin despite the edict. It would appear that this is an attempt to scare Poland into going after Stettin, in an attempt to give us a reason to attack them contrary to the diet majority's wishes, but in congruence with the Kaiser's.

Also, we still lack a spy in Milan! This edict was proposed as edict 1.16, but has yet to be fulfilled, despite the enormous amount of time we've had to accomplish it in! However, the Kaiser has clearly stated his intention to send a spy to Poland as soon as possible, despite edicts pushing for an alliance and peaceful trade rights with the Poles. Why is the Kaiser's attention not focused on fulfilling diet edicts? It appears that recent events are instead moving in a manner that appears to be contrary to the diet edicts, or at the very least more favorably to someone's private ambitions than for the good of the Reich? I do hope there is a rational explanation for the Kaiser's actions, despite how this situation looks."

He pauses, taking a deep breathe, and does not sit. Instead, he remains standing, an action implying that he will hold his ground, and will not budge until he is pleased with the answer he receives.

[Ituralde]

Castles, hm, my fellow Elector?

Conrad shudders visibly at the thought.

Nice drafts in the evening, while you're surrounded by nothing but cold stone and the only place to warm is a fire burning in the hearth. The only diversion from freezing is to watch your men exercise, flogging straw puppets to death.
Do you really want to sacrifice the warm interior of an Alehouse, the merchants haggling on the market and the splendour of theaters and bard tales for that?
Well, everyone to his liking, I say. This is indeed a matter of the House of Austria and should not trouble this Assembly any longer.
I extend a warm thank you to our fellow House of Bavaria. They're mighty castle at Innsbruck has always offered protection for our merchants and I'm convinced it will do so in the future.

Conrad coughs politely.

I'm glad to hear that all of you seek glory for our Reich and my old bones grow warm at the though that the fate of my ancestors rests in such capable hands. I can't wait to see the day when we finally see the Duchy of Milan brought back into our domain.

But troublesome news reach us from the East. Breslau has succumbed to the vile Poles. How convenient for our Emperor, who now doesn't have to stand by his word of giving that County to the House of Austria. Maybe he should have granted lands that were already ours instead of promising foreign ones? The sparrow in the hand is better than the dove on the roof. Is this not what they say in these parts?
I say we leave those Poles to try to cultivate those harsh lands, they seem much more used to it than we are. We, who have tasted the fruits of Romes former glory should focus on their fruits. Our interest and our position in Italy must be strenghtened. I may look old and wiry, but I have campaigned in Italy for many years, who better to attend to the land than someone knowledgeable in the Italian customs? But alas, it seems like my requests fall on deaf hears.

On another matter, I hear that a strong force is assembled to take Bern soon. How great to hear. It's led by a Bavarian commander, I beleive? Now I'm wondering what our Kaisers plans are for the future of it's surrounding lands. As much as I would like to grant the Bavarians a well-earned reward for their oncoming victory, it would seem hasty to other houses such as Swabia or Austria, if Bavaria be given yet another province, a castle at that.
Of course my fellow Elector would clearly like to see Bern in our hands, which I'm not opposed to, but seeing that we have no stakes in the coming assault it might be imprudent. Still there are newly given lands to the south of Bavaria. The cultivated plains surrounding Bologna. Surely Austrian merchantship can take care and multiply the profits of that city, while the Bavarians can focus on their military leadership within our Empire. Someone has to fight, and someone else has to finance those wars.
I think the possibilities are clearly given for our Kaiser to act in a manner that would be statisfying for all participants, it's only a matter of whether he decides to do this.

Conrad bows slightly to the fellow Electors and a little deeper for Emperor Heinrich before settling down.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Now look here, Dietrich.

Your boundless ambition and goals are simply impossible to fulfill. You would have the Reich bankrupt in order just to have enough men to take one measly castle.

First of all, you specifically asked for two units of mounted sergeants and four units of peasantry before an attempt on Stettin was made. This takes time. It also takes money, of which this Diet seems to have little grasp of the importance of.

You must remember, dear Dietrich, who cannot even father one measly child, that Franconia is not the only house. I must obey the wishes of the governors in what to build. Building up the interior of the Reich is most critical. Once that has been managed, recruiting units, such as your ridiculous demands for taking Stettin, as well as the stupidly large amount of priests this Diet has required me to take along with Cardinal Scherer, and the spy (never mind that none of the governors nearby will build the buildings that allow for the recruitment of these) becomes secondary.

So Dietrich, something must give. The timeframe you set combined with the troops you requested was impossible to do. So you will either be content with the progress we are making, or you will not and further action will be taken against you. I urge you to take the first option if you know what's good for you.

[AussieGiant]

Kaiser, My Lords,

Firstly many thanks to the warm welcome and honourable comments by Kaiser Heinrich and Sir Sigismund,

It seems that while having a brief luncheon things have developed quite rapidly here in the main hall.

I must first concede the need for a castle in the holdings of House Austria for the time being and defer to 2nd Elector Conrad.

I am please to hear the Kaiser will send a spy to Poland. Equally a diplomat might be wise in order to force the outstanding issue of Poland’s intentions towards us. With a request for alliance on the table we could dispense with the “theories” about Poland’s intentions here in the Diet. Either they ally or they don’t. Which ever they choose will allow us to react accordingly.

I will note this idea down as a possible edict request.

My only other thought is that we should begin to formulate our opinions on the Reich’s “Standing Armies”. I firmly believe a number of house controlled standing armies in conjunction with smaller city and castle garrisons would be most efficient in the future. What say you all to this idea?

I must also say that things seemed to have diverted to other topics rather rapidly.

I understand Duke Dietrich’s intentions and desire for expansion but I believe the Kaiser is correct. We have limited resources at this time and we must wait our respective turns at achieving goals.

A small bite to eat and some refreshments might be prudent at this time. It seems tempers are starting to fray.

Gentlemen, as is custom in Austria might I invite you all to sample some of the excellent wine I brought with me from Vienna?

[Lucjan]

There is a wry look of sarcasm of Dietrich's face as raises an eyebrow to the Kaiser's retort, particularly the comment on children. There's a look in the Duke's eye that implies the Kaiser knows far from the truth on that matter.

Actually, if you look at the facts, my supposedly ridiculous demands for raising two meager regiments of peasantry, and three regiments of cavalry sargeants could have been accomplished in 4 years time, the regiments of peasants in the first two, and the sargeants in the next two. The fall of Stettin could have occurred in the next 6, hence the ten year timeline outlined in the edict. In total, increase in our previous upkeep would have been a meager 705 florins. The fall of Stettin, according to my reviews of the area's demographics, prior to the castle's conversion to a city, would still have netted us over 700 florins every two years. The upkeep increase, with the recruitment order I mentioned, would, for the entire time prior to Stettin's fall, have cost us 2,295 florins in total. Stettin would have repaid this in its entirety in a mere six years.

This was the purpose of the ten year timeline. Nothing I do, and nothing I propose, is not without its purpose Kaiser. All I have requested, is that you explain why so many of these recent events are seemingly so closely related. And why, if my requests were so outlandishly absurd, am I sitting around Hamburg very well past the time I should be, waiting for the arrival of what my scouts tell me are two militia regiments that are nothing but an unnecessary expense and an unnecessary waste of time.

And as far as things costing money. I need no lectures on costs, as you can clearly see. Just as well, let me deliberate and explain my position! You will see that it is clearly, far from the strain on our coffers that you imagine it to be. The Reich pulled in just shy of 5,000 florins of profit every two years. In the ten year timeline for capturing Stettin we would have made, roughly, 50,000 denarii, in profits alone. A measly 2,295 florins over the entire course of that ten years comes out to an average of 459 florins every two years. The bottom line, is that the capture of Stettin has been grossly delayed, diet edicts have been ignored, and even if every one of our settlements were to spend 1,600 florins on projects every two years in the same four years we could have recruited the peasants and sargeants, we would still have had twice the entire increase in the upkeep cost due to the recruitment to spend as we pleased and even more money beyond that. And these estimates even include all our other upkeeps thrown in as well!

So you see! My supposedly boundless ambition and goals are far from "impossible", and instead are extremely plausible. Besides this, I must wonder what ambitions and goals I have Kaiser? What have I ever done that has not been to the benefit of the Reich? What have I ever done that has not strengthened our overall position? And do not wrongly accuse me of being ignorant of our other noble houses needs. I have been, and will continue, to be in communication with our other houses at various times to work out what is, overall, in the best interests of the Reich.

Now that I have spoken my mind, do kindly answer my questions, and don't snap at me like some child.

Dietrich leans forward, the look of an inquisitor about him.

I respect every man in this room Kaiser, but there is one man that is mandated to follow the edicts this diet passes, and that man is the chancellor. So answer me now, not as the Kaiser, but as the chancellor, explain to this diet on what grounds the wishes of multiple houses are being ignored?

Why has Stettin not fallen? Why has Milan not been infiltrated by a spy? Why has the distribution of lands not been more in line with the earnest requests of some of the houses and their interests, their expertises? Why is your focus not on fulfilling the diet edicts? Why have recent events contradicted, delayed and ignored them? What is your rational explanation for this string of occurrances?

[AussieGiant]

while remaining seated the 4th Elector for Austria raises an eyebrow

....I presume then...

...that drinks are entirely out of the question at this time my lords!!??

If so, then I think I need to order some Scotch to get myself through this session...

turning with great exaggeration, the Austrian 4th Elector flags down a passing page man, and whispers

a bottle of that irish stuff I saw earlier today...and make it snappy old chap...I'm in great need of a drink!!

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Dietrich, the bottom line is that we have not had 705 florins. I have sometimes seen our florin count fall in the double, even single digits after fulfilling the wishes of the governors. I understand the profit that would have occured, but I cannot spend the money that does not exist. Before you get all whiny and angered at me, I suggest that you review the basic lessons of economics.

As for your other "complaints," let me address them simply:

The time has not passed yet.

Unless the Diet rules have suddenly changed without my knowledge, I believe that I have until the end of my term to fulfill the required edicts. So stop crowing needlessly to this Diet and shut up.

I will not tolerate this insubordination. Every man here aside from you knows that my greatest desire is to see the Reich prosper. Yet you continue to needlessly pressure me and then dare to insult me in front of this entire Diet for failing to fulfill edicts that have not yet expired.

Maximillian Mandorf will now lead the attack on Stettin. And before you yell at me for saying that Edict 2.6 called for you to lead the attack, please realize that it only recommended that you lead the attack. Well, I took the recommendation into light and disagreed with it.

Your new duty is to fulfill the requirements of Edict 2.9, since you are so concerned with me executing them. Hopefully during that time you will come to realize the importance of loyalty.

[Lucjan]

The duke, were he staring an enemy in the face on the field, would be cleaning his sword of blood right about now. This was precisely the blatant display of incompetance he was hoping to get out of the kaiser. Admittance of misunderstanding an edict that blatantly stated Stettin "shall be taken in 10 years", not two, or four, or six after, but within the clearly worded time frame of ten. When an edict mandated a time period, there was no waiting beyond that. Then to remove him from the position at the head of the army for the purpose of slowing the Reich's progress even further by forcing the conquest of Stettin to wait for Mandorf to arrive only added to the Kaiser's own injuries. And what was more, was the Kaiser's total misunderstanding of what the Chancellor's duties truly entailed. Governor's build queues were suggestions, they were not mandates, they could be ignored for the good of the Reich when there were more important things at hand, and Dietrich would have traded a few years of Hamburg's build queue in order to take Stettin and make up for it exponentially in the next few years thanks to Stettin's fall in a heartbeat. It was all Dietrich could do to avoid from laughing in the Kaiser's face.

"If that's what must be done, then at least one important edict will get done." Dietrich, content with the Kaiser's self ridiculing display, turned and departed the diet proceedings. He would have to lay low for a while, keep out of the fool's hair. When the elections came soon enough he would have to run for chancellor, if not to right all of the kaiser's foolish errors than to at least place somebody in the position who understood the law and what their duties entailed. As the diet doors closed behind him, he looked towards the sky.

"God save the Reich if that fool doesn't die soon. Henry must bring an air of competance back to the throne. How can we follow a man who claims to be the lord of the Reich when he doesn't even understand the law?" Dietrich shook his head, then departed to make his plans for the necessary watch tower placements.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

If I may direct everyone's attention to the Imperial Charter. Then we will see that I am not, in fact, an incompetant leader.


2.1 The Chancellor... moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

Here it would seem as if the Chancellor (me) had full power over what to recruit as well as build, and perhaps you are right. But the next provision corrects that:


2.2 However, he... follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

Notice the numbering of that provision. It is 2.2, and comes before the following provision:


2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

Now, it seems we have a dilemma here. There are two contradictions in the Charter, because my fulfilling one provision would make it impossible to fulfill the other one. Keeping that in mind, as well as the fact that the "must obey governors" provision comes before the "must obey edicts" provision, I made the executive decision to follow the wishes of the governors. It was clearly *not* an illegal move considering the financial situation the Reich was in, so I had every right to delay the move on Stettin in order to keep us in the black.

It seems now as if I made a terrible mistake in marrying off Agnes to this fool. At least he has spared us all of the misfortune of having idiot offspring trouble the Diet in the future.

[AussieGiant]

....are there any consitutional lawyers in the house, I think we are in need of some at this point...

there's a pause for some minutes...not a sound is heard

...alright then, that's a no I take it.

Into the next gaping silence, the 4th Elector from Austria breaks the tension yet again

I still think drinks are in order gentlemen...would anyone care to second the motion??

[econ21]

Prinz Henry stands, unsure of himself, clearly appalled at the situation.

I remind the Diet that constitutional disputes are decided by the Emperor and the Emperor alone.

For my part, as someone who helped draft the constitution, I would volunteer the view that governors' build queues are, in a sense, optional. If the Chancellor wishes to build any building in a settlement, they must build what is first on the build queue. However, the Chancellor is quite entitled to build nothing in a settlement.

On the wider issues of Poland, Stettin and the speed of our expansion, I would caution the Diet. We have expanded rapidly already. My father is to be congratulated on orchestrating this. However, all good things must come to an end and it is inevitable that the easy gains will soon be exhausted - whether by our hand or by that of our neighbours. Florins do not lie on street pavements for long.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I would like to congratulate my son Leopold on finally taking Prague. Well done, son.

Also, I advise the Diet that currently, none of our cities have the capacity to recruit a spy. If you wish that particular edict fulfilled, I request the governors, especially those around Milan, to revise their build queues.

-edit- Nevermind, I'll do it myself. Florence could use a brothel. (heh-heh)

[AussieGiant]

I'd like to formally congratulate My Lord, Duke Leopold in taking Prague.

With that skirmish concluded, we are now finished with over running rebel settlements to the east.

Given Prinz Henry's comments it would seem obvious that constitutional issues can only be argued between Duke's, and men of lower station in the realm.

As the Emperor has final say in all constitutional matters there is no point taking issue directly with him as it will be a short discussion to say the least.

[Ituralde]

Conrad applaudes lightly as he hears the message from Emperor Heinrich.

I have to agree with your gratulations my Lords.
Concerning your desire for an extended spy network, mein Kaiser. Vienna will not oppose the building of a brothel. I'm sure my liege would have mentioned this to you, but it seems he was preoccupied with his siege. I hear our merchants are already craving for distraction. Counting florins can be quite boring, at least that's what I'm told.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich bursts into the proceedings.

"This is intolerable!" Dietrich's tone is far beyond angry, though he retains his composure, his voice his booming.

"This man has, up to this point, done everything in an attempt to circumvent the laws of the diet and has blatantly proceeded to act contrary to the edicts in pursuit of his own ambitions! This is not diplomacy, this is tyranny! May I call the diet's attention to the location of Maximillian Mandorf. The Kaiser has deliberately sent him through Polish territory in order to take Stettin. Our diplomats report our relations with them have dropped to poor! The edict demands and alliance, yet this fool continues to antagonize and instigate war with people who have shown nothing but predictable responces of someone with concern for their own safety, not the intention of harming others."

Dietrich shakes his head, looking to the floor. "I will not follow the whim of someone so ignorant as you...build your own god damned watch towers. If I am needed I will be at Hamburg, unless I am needed by the kaiser, in which case you can meet me in Hell."
With that, the Duke storms out of the diet proceedings, adamant in his refusal to follow the kaiser's orders.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Hmm, now things are a bit different, aren't they?

First of all, it seems as if you are now the one disobeying edicts by refusing to build the watchtowers. Not very sporting for one who has the office of Chancellor in mind.

Second, now all of a sudden you are not concerned with the speed of the capture of Stettin. Through Poland is the quickest way for Mandorf, and I thought that you were particularly concerned with the speed of its fall. This is how this argument started, is it not?

Third, no edict has been passed with the ban on our forces entering Polish territory. Therefore, I am in violation of no edict and the diplomat is on his way to offer an Alliance with Poland, which you so desparately crave.

[Lucjan]

There is mumbling from side of the House of Franconia. Then outright laughter, nobles, statesmen, even their secretaries can see through the Kaiser's pitiful excuses.

"Does he actually think we can't see through that nonsense?!" One man yells.

"He's deliberately lowering relations with Poland so they'll deny the alliance!" Another angry voice barks.

"The duke isn't refusing the edict, he was never ordered to build them, in fact, Franconia is the only house that had the foresight to erect such constructions prior to the edict! Each duchy should construct it's own towers! It's stupid to have a man with no knowledge of other houses building their watch towers!"

"He's a baboon!"

The rauckus laughter, after that last comment, only grows worse.

"He violates edicts! Argues that he didn't, then tries to make the Reich's situation WORSE by ignoring intelligent council and proceeding to deliberately act contrary to the diet's wishes!"

The Franconian section of the diet, now in an uproar, begins to angrily storm out of the diet, following their duke.

"This is not a diet! This is a dictatorship!"

"Tyrant!"

"Any man who thinks this dummkopf is an honorable man is ALSO a dummkopf!"

It takes little time for the entire section of Franconia's diet seating to be empty.

[OverKnight]

Otto von Kassel quickly strides into the Diet. His riding clothes are splattered with mud and the worse for wear. A bandage is wrapped around his head, with a hint of red showing through the gauze at the right temple. Otto speaks:

Mein Kaiser! Lords of the Reich! Bern is ours! The Reich is victorious! I have ridden three horses into the ground so that I could bring you the news myself!

Having made his announcement, some of the elation leaves Otto. He appears grimmer than you remember.

It was not without cost, however. The commander of their garrison, Helmut, knew his business and his walls were strong. Almost 400 of my men gave their lives for this victory. None of those bandits, however, lived to brag of it, I sent almost 700 of them to Hell!

Otto turns to Prinz Henry and the Swabian delegation:

Sigismund and his men fought like Lions my Prinz! Without their valor, I fear the day might have turned against us. All the men should be commended for their bravery!

Otto faces the Kaiser:

I bring with me 1500 florins for the royal coffers mein Kaiser. They were crafty and well armed foes, but not all that rich. Still, we are in commanding position in the Alps now.

Otto addresses the new Fourth Elector of Austria:

I thank you for the gift of wine you gave me before I left good sir. Sigismund and I drank it in the great hall, and it was excellent. I have a few choice bottles from the castle's cellar that I will send to you.

Otto turns to face the Franconian delegation, only at this point does he notice their absence. One of his eyebrow raises a bit, but he says nothing. Otto addresses the remaining members of the Diet:

I will present a battle report soon my lords, but I am very tired now from the road. I am going to rest. I might have something to say on the morrow.

Otto turns on his heels and wearily exits the Diet. He returns much later, rested and in a change of clothes, and begins writing a battle report at his desk.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Wrong again, Franconia. The watchtower that Dietrich requested was to keep watch over the Danes, not the Reich.

And you were not the only house to have placed watch upon outsiders, either. Austria has done so with both the provinces of Vienna and now Prague too, and Bavaria has done so with a pass through the Alps leading into Italy, serving both as an interior and exterior view.

I suggest to the electors and their staff that they review the latest maps thoroughly as well as constitutional procedure before they... grace this Diet with their presence again.

[Ignoramus]

Count Sigismund der Stolze strides into the Diet building. He has not had time to change from his coat of mail into more suitable attire.

Mein Kaiser, fellow electors, and honourable lords of the Reich, I offer my heartiest congratulations to Otto von Kassel. He fought admirably at Bern and kept calm even when the day looked as if it may go against us. He is a credit to the Reich and the Duchy of Bavaria; it was an honour to fight alongside such a brave and shrewd general.

I apologize for the state that I am in; I received a mere scratch on mein arm from a Swiss spear.

Sigismund bows and quiety leaves the Diet.

[Ituralde]

Conrad had once again been suspiciously absent from the Diets meeting and now that he returned the reason for his absence was obvious for everyone. His skin was now drawn tight across his skull, like thin parchment, with his eyes set back . His hair has grown even less and thinner, dangling spindly in a small fringe around his head. It really was a sight to be reminded of ones own mortality.
His voice was also thinner as he spoke, but still managed to carry to the farthes corners of the Diet:

Much has happened, while my health has kept me from joining this Diet.
I must applaud our great military leaders for rewarding the Reich with these victories. My greatest respect belongs to Duke Leopold, Duke Mandorf, Otto von Kassel, and of course Sigismund der Stoltze, without his help the taking of Bern would not have been feasible, or so I've heard. Finally those treacherous Milanese dogs have been restricted by...
A short fit of coughing interrupts the Elector and it takes some time before he regains his composure.

I also have to apologize for the Absence of my Liege. He is quite busy in the East, building watchtowers and what not. Those uncivilized lands can not be left to themselves for just one month, I guess, not like our Italian holdings, where few of our esteemed Electors have visited recently.
Duke Leopold intends to return at the next formal Diet meeting the latest. In the meantime I shall do my best to represent the House of Austria.

Exhaling heavily he lowers himself back in his seat, relying completely on the support of an ornately carved walking stick, to do so.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I would like to congratulate the House of Bavaria on leading our men to twin victories at Bern and Stettin. Both sieges were hard fought and I am pleased that the House of Swabia was able to contribute in some small way, with the gallant Count Sigismund riding at the side of Commander Otto. I hope the Emperor will bear Sigismund in mind to command the next battle of our forces, as I believe he is the only knight of renown who has not yet had a chance to lead us in battle.

I would also like to comment on the severe losses we suffered in the two sieges. I wonder if, in future, we should consider starving out garrisons rather than throwing our men against their walls? After all, a besieged garrison cannot go anywhere, and I would rather face the defenders in a sally (or even fight off a relief force) than storm city walls to get at them. This is particularly true while our assault forces consist of only horse and spearmen. Things may change when the day comes when we can provide a siege train or even persuade our proud knights to dismount to scale the walls. But until that time, I wonder if we should be more patient and not expect such rapid gains as we have become accustomed to.

[OverKnight]

Otto, at the mention of Bern, rubs his right temple and winces. He rises to address the Diet:

Mein Prinz, you speak truly. It is much better for us to fight an enemy who sallies out than assaulting their walls.

However, after taking Bern my clerks inventoried the castle's stores. According to them those schwein had enough provisions to last them another 10 years! (OOC: 5 turns) Sigismund and I would still be sitting outside Bern in our siege camp dicing if the Kaiser had decided to starve them out! Yes, we would have saved lives by waiting them out, but we would have had the largest field army in the Reich immobilized for the entire time. The sooner we seize a settlement, the sooner we can collect revenue from it and build it up, and the sooner we can replenish and redeploy the army that assaulted it.

In the future it would be wise to strike a balance between conservation of our forces and strategic interests when choosing in a siege between assault or starving out an enemy. I see this balance shifting depending on many variables such as the state of our treasury, proximity to reinforcements, and whether a relief force is close. Towns, particularly, are vulnerable to prolonged sieges.

In the case of Bern castle, however, the Kaiser ordered the assault at the right moment. I do not believe we had the time to wait until they sallied out, edict 2.5's deadline would have passed. Waiting a few more years, but not enough to starve them out, would have only reduced their numbers by a pittance. I had the siege equipment I needed and all the men I was going to get. The presence of Milanese forces in the region a few years later shows that the timing of the assault was correct.

Otto's expression becomes grim, his voice comes out in a low rasp:

We must not shy away from bloodshed if it is necessary for victory!

Otto's mood lightens a bit.

I agree with the Prinz's suggestion that Count Sigismund have his own command. He has fought well in two battles already and deserves a chance to lead an army of his own!

My lords.

Otto sits.


OOC: I think I'm enjoying that new point of dread. :whip:

[TinCow]

Maximillian Mandorf strides into the Diet with a stern look on his face.

Pardon the intrusion, but perhaps have any of you seen an infantryman around? I have been looking for one for some time now. Perhaps they are mythical beasts, for they are spoken of often, yet do not seem to be native to our lands.

Mandorf slams his fist down on a desk, causing a ceramic inkwell to tumble off and shatter on the floor.

Are we damned Turks?! Do we marry our horses and fire arrows out of our arses?!

The Steward of Bavaria looks around the room.

NO? Then why in the hells are our armies composed of nothing but cavalry?! Not only are they poorly suited for assaults on cities and castles, but they are also more costly to maintain.

How about this, fellow nobles; let us give some sharpened sticks to the peasants and put THEM in our armies. They certainly could not perform more poorly in a city than our pompous cavalrymen!

Mandorf takes his seat; a sullen look etched his face.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia stands up and says:

"I agree with Duke Mandorf here.We need to keep our armies in good order and balance. Ofcourse if our enemies were men enough,they would meet us in open field on a set time and place agreed by both parties, but this is not the case. They are hiding behind their walls like cowards and we need troops that can scale those walls. Or should we just hire our infantry from wandering mercenary parties and be dependant of foreigners with no loyalty to anyone.?"

Swabian elector bows and takes his place.

[GeneralHankerchief]

A message is posted for all to see in the main chamber of the Diet:

Attn Sigismund der Stolze

As you are now the governor of Bern please notify Kaiser Heinrich of your plans for that settlement. Do you wish to convert it to a city or keep it as a castle?

(OOC: Base your decision off of kotr1114-2)

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Stolze stnads up and speaks to the Kaiser.

Heil, mein Kaiser. I think it is in the Reich's best interests to keep Bern as a castle. One never knows what those Milanese are capable of and it would be best to be well prepared.

I would also like to construct a Small Chapel and a Mustering Hall there.

[AussieGiant]

Gazing into his 4 finger glass of whiskey the 4th Elector of Austria says to know one in particular;

Ahh Bern remains a castle to thwart the Milanese...

...I presume there is a cunning plan to ensure the Poles, Viennese and Hungarians never raise so much as an aggressive look in our direction...

...maybe we just keep the entire population of these nations drunk to ensure this never happens...

Sir Sigismund!!? Was that wine I gave Otto strong enough to ensure a man is drunk for weeks on end if given enough??

Kaiser, do we know the official diplomatic status with these three nations? Have our diplomats finished with this work?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Outrage! The people of Milan have brazenly and openly declared war on us by besieging our new castle of Bern! Sigismund and his garrison are trapped inside, and nothing may be built or done until these people are sent back home.

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_045.jpg

[Kagemusha]

"To arms!! Im sorry but when my fellow Swabians are in danger i cant sit on here and do nothing.Mein Kaiser how many are the Milanese? Can Siegfrieds men hold them at bay? I suggest to strike the milanese straight to the heart by counter sieging Milan itself."

Fifth Elector of Swabia remains standing staring the Kaiser and waiting for an answer.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

The Milanese outnumber and outclass Sigismund's forces. I have dispatched Otto von Kassel and some cavalry to assist him in the inevitable assault, but I fear that they will not arrive in time.

As for a direct counter-attack, that can be arranged but it may take some time.

[Kagemusha]

"Mein Kaiser.
Do we have any troops on striking distance towards Milan? Or any knowledge how strongly its garrisoned? If the sieging force is too strong for Siegfried i doubt sending troops towards Bern does any good for us. Our chances to save Bern in my mind are either heroic defence of Siegfrieds forces or quickly sieging Milan. I think that if we Siege Milan itself,the Milanese army could lift the siege and march back to save their capital. Which could give us time to strengthen the siege force in Milan enough to fight a deciseve battle outside the walls of their capital."

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Good Swabian elector, I appreciate your concern. As we speak I am preparing a report that will detail everything, including the situation and my plans. I ask for patience.

(OOC: Report will be up probably in around 30 minutes, maybe less)

[Kagemusha]

"Thank you mein Kaiser. I will wait for the report,so we can see the full seriosnes of the situation."

The Fith Elector sits down and curses silently: "Damned.I shouldnt be here.I should be in Bern or somewhere where i could help my countrymen with my own sword."

[TinCow]

This is outrageous! The Papal lapdogs will be crushed! The House of Bavaria will not rest until every last Milanese bastard lowers his head before the Kaiser. Those who do not do so on bended knee will do so with a severed neck.

No doubt the Usurper will refrain from interfering in this matter, as it is surely his work. I have refrained from revealing this information as I was unsure of its truth, but these actions make its validity unquestionable. While I was in Stettin, Bavarian agents brought me the following document:

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/KOTR/TC/popemilan.jpg

As you can plainly see, Pope Gregory was personally meeting with the Milanese just before their move on Bern! This cannot be a coincidence. The Milanese are acting under his express orders! Yet he has surely blundered. By unleashing his urchins to strike at us first, all nations will view our overwhelming retaliation as fully justified. First we will deal with the puppets, then we will deal with the master.

[Ignoramus]

A messenger hurries into the Diet. He is out of breath and looks exhausted.

He bows before the assembled Diet.

Noble electors, I bear this message from Count Sigismund der Stolze. I managed to slip through the Milanese lines besieging Bern.

"Noble elcetors, I will hold Bern to the last, I will not surrender to these Milanese dogs. I feared that Bern would be attacked; I am now sadly proven right.

Sigismund der Stolze, Count of Burgundy"

The messenger is carried out by a couple of guard to be attended to.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector reads through the new report carefully and asks permisission to speak:

"Mein Kaiser.The situation is indeed threatening. But as i poundered our forces in Italy and distances to Milan i came to an conclusion that Immediate siege of Milan in order to divert the Milanese force besieging Bern is indeed possible. I suggest that Kaiser sends all his troops from Bologna to siege Milan immediately and rides speedily from Florence to lead them, in order to keep order in our Italian areas i suggest the redistribution of the forces of Florence to keep order also in Bologna. After this season we can then move more capable units to the siege force and return the militia units back to the Bologna. If we send also reinforcements from Innsbruck we have soon a mighty host sieging Milan. This should enforce the Milanese force to lift the siege of Bern and the dogs will find out that their siege effort has turned into siege of their capital by Imperial forces."

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

A good idea, Elector Kagemusha. However, I am not sure if we would be able to keep Bologna secure long enough for the militia to return - public order has been annoying with them.

Anyway, most of it is moot. I have received intelligence that Sigismund is attempting a sally in order to drive the Milanese from Bern. I ask that your prayers go out to him and his men.

(OOC: Ig, I forgot to put this in the PM but make sure you send me a screenshot of the casualties afterwards. Your inbox is full)

[Kagemusha]

After hearing Kaisers words about Sigismunds plans on sallying out. Fifth Elector looks into his feet for a moment and then raises his head up and speaks:

"I hope that Sigismund is succesfull on his sally. But sometimes bravery walks hand on hand with foolishnes. I pray the Lord that this will not be the last message we hear from Lord Sigismund."

The fifth Elector of Swabia sits down on his place,places his head between his hands rubbing his temples and stares the floor without blinking.

[flyd]

Fredericus von Hamburg enters the diet with a fraction of the Franconian delegation, who take their seats.

It is at times like these that the entire Reich must stand united. I am uncertain that Sigismund's decision to sally was wise, but I pray that his judgement is proven correct, and that he crushes the enemy.

We are somewhat fortunate that we have a diet session within one turn, so that we may in detail discuss what is to be done in light of the new developments. I urge the Kaiser to leave all non-urgent tasks, such as the Papal request that we break our alliance with Sicily, who, incidentally, is an enemy of Milan. Of course, the Kaiser should perform any military maneuvers that may be immediately necessary. What that will be in the south depends on what happens at Bern, but we should not get completely distracted. I hear reports of a large Hungarian army near Budapest, and notice that Vienna is virtually undefended. Leopold should think about returning to Austria with some of the troops.

[OverKnight]

A messenger from Otto von Kassel arrives in the Diet. He's in better condition than Sigismund's, but not by much. Pausing to take a breath he unfolds his message and begins to read:

Mein Kaiser, my lords.

This is not how I wanted Sigismund to have his first command! For those who argue that God does not have a sense of humor, I say this is proof that He does.

By the time my man reaches you, the sally should already be under way. I lead a small contingent, but we are fast and heavily armed. The Milanese force appears to be nothing but infantry, perfect for a siege but not ideal for action in the open field. I look forward to trampling many of the traitorous bastards beneath my war horse! I'm almost insulted that they did not deign to send one of their "nobles" to lead this force against us. Do they think us children?! They shall lose that impression when we send their Captain's head back to them on a pike!

As for the Kaiser's plans after this battle. I know he does not want to hear this, but our standing with the Pope is only slighter better than those merchants. If we move against their territory, we may suffer excommunication or he might try to call a halt to the war. If this is the price the Kaiser is willing to pay, than so be it. But, I would suggest bringing a majority of the Innsbruck garrison to the Bern region. We sit astride their supply lines to Dijon here. Let us fight on the strategic defensive, striking at their forces that dare show their face in the Bern area. Bleed them, weaken them and once they have fallen out with the Pope, then strike at their cities! There are only a few years left until Chancellor elections, perhaps it would be best for the next Chancellor to decide our long term strategy.

I must finish this letter as a messenger from Sigismund has arrived, we attack soon! I did not take Bern, lords, to allow it be lost a few years later! Milan shall pay for their insolence with blood! I am sending Sigismund's and my own messenger on to Frankfurt with our messages. Wish us luck.

Otto


OOC: Ignoramus, let me pass on the sage advice you gave me, "Don't kill my character!"

:2thumbsup: Good luck!

[Kagemusha]

Fifth elector mutters to himself as Von Kassels messenger leaves:

"Good luck to you also Von Kassel. Our hope lies in our cavalry."

[Ignoramus]

The same messenger rushes into the Diet. He wears a joyous expression.

Victory! Count Sigismund and von Kassel have trampled the Milanese militia. All but 17 of the Milanese were either dead or taken prisoner by our forces. Count Sigismund, in an act of generosity and respect, released the 272 prisoners we took on the field. It was a hard fought battle, and looked doubtful until von Kassel and his knights arrived.

Glory to the Reich!

[Kagemusha]

" Praise the Lord! But i will have to warn this diet.One day we will face enemy force strong enough, that it will teach us a lesson,if we replace strategy with reckless bravery.Now if you will excuse me i will retire to my quarters."

The Elector greets the diet and walks away from the room with an expression on his face that shows he is thinking something intensively.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Chivalrous Count Sigismund has performed valiantly in driving back the aggressors from Bern; I salute him!

I am within marching distance of Bern and humbly petition my father that I be sent to the front. I propose that my archers and knights from Staufen join with the spearmen from Innsbruck to march straight on the settlement of Milan itself. Milan is the not only our foe's capital, but it also divides our lands, leaving our Emperor cut off from most of his territory. Milan is, however, relatively lightly guarded. Our response to this unprovoked aggression from the Milanese must be swift, overwhelming and uncompromising.

Having recently acquired a fine guard dog in my retinue, I must disagree with Commander Mandorf, however. To call the Milanese dogs is a vile slur on canines everywhere.

[AussieGiant]

Count's Sigismund and Otto have yet again proved their skill and bravery for the Reich!! This news is excellent, well done both of you!!

I must agree with His Highness Prinz Henry's proposal.

We must strike back quickly against the Milanese!! Their capital is a perfect choice, it will not only cripple them, but bring us one step closer to reuniting our Italian holdings with those in central Europe.

Attack!!!

[Ituralde]

Conrad von Schüsselen has again not been seen during the troubling events of the recent days, but rumour had it that his screams of outrage coul be heard in the entire wing occupied the Austrian delegation when he heard of the Milanese attack.
Somewhat composed he stands again in front of the Diet.

I have to agree with all of you that this is an outrage! First they shake off our rule and now those treacherous money-lovers dare to attack us in Bern castle. Were it not for the courageous defense of Count Sigismund and von Kassels support it would have been a grim hour for the Reich! Let's seize this opportunity now to put an end to the Milanese scum! Rip out their heart I say, and finish them off for good. Were I younger I would lead the assault on the walls myself to personally cut the throats of every traitor I can find!!

Conrad has spoken himself into a fury, his hair in disarray and his stick flailing wildly about. His voice has grown harsher by the minute and now finally the withheld coughing comes to the fore and shakes his body violently. His right hand already rises to his mouth a velvet red handkerchief at the ready. But he no longer has control over his actions and slowly folds, while fine specks of blood appear at the corner of his mouth. With a final cough he collapses on the Diet floor.
Immediatelly secretaries and servants from the House of Austria rush forward to carry Conrad out of the Diet. All that is left is a sprinkle of blood on the floor and a velvet red handkerchief lying beside it, the crest of the House of Franconia set in one corner.

[Ituralde]

Not long after the events around Conrad von Schüsselen, Duke Leopold storms into the Diet.

Mein Kaiser, Dukes, fellow Electors!

I came from Prague as soon as I heard of the attack on Bern. Praise be to the gods that our valiant heroes succeeded in driving the Milanese back. Every House should be proud to have such capable men within their ranks.

I'd like to apologize for my few visits in the past, but Bohemia has kept me occupied. You would not beleive what you find in those lands. Pagans and Heretics everywhere, it seems like every idea, however crazy, falls on well prepared soil there, maybe be we should send some of our Priests to pray there too.
I hope Conrad von Schüsselen was able to speak on my behalf, although I fear his condition has taken a turn for the worse. He may just recover, but he will no longer be able to perform his functions as Second Elector of Austria.
I hope we can find him a nice little household somewhere around Florence. He's always dreamed of ending his life in a quet little country home overlooking the rolling hills of Tuscany and I think he deserves nothing less.

Alas, we have more important matters to turn our attention to. I would gladly take my host right to the gates of Milan itself and show those Milanes what happens to traitors, but as Fredericus von Hamburg has rightfully mentioned,is the fact that the Hungarians are casting envious glances across the Danube. In this time of trouble it is important that we appear strong to our neighbours lest they take an example on Milans actions. If that attack really met approval from Pope Gregory, the ever pious King of Hungary would surely see the time to improve his standings with the Pope if he managed to sack Vienna.
So while I will be busy showing no possible weakness for our enemies to strike at, I wish the generals leading their assault on Milan the best of luck and god's praise that the head of the venomous snake poisoning our lands will be swiftly cut off!

[AussieGiant]

In unison the loud and deep voices of the Austrian benches can be heard bellowing their agreement.

The 4th Elector of Austria leads a loud banging of the tables from the Austrian delegations benches...the din slowly subsides after some minutes.

[OverKnight]

Otto von Kassel, returning from the front, walks into the Diet and sits. He listens to the debate for a while and then rises to speak:

My Lords, I am heartened by this talk of striking at our new enemies the Milanese. Sigismund has brought their surprise attack to nought, and we now hold the initiative. We can strike where we wish!

Many have called for an attack on the city of Milan. It would be a glorious accomplishment to bring this city back into the domain of the Reich, yet we have failed to consider the consequences of a march into Milanese territory.

I almost certain that the Pope would frown on two Catholic nations fighting each other. I would not be surprised if he has already sent a messenger to Milan ordering them, under pain of Interdiction, to cease their actions against us. If we attack into Milanese territory, I would be even less surprised if the Pope gave us the same warning. Unless our strike against the city of Milan is incredibly swift, we will have to choose between excommunication or lifting the siege on the city. Our standing with Rome is not high enough where we can ignore Papal requests without dire consequences.

Does this Diet wish to pursue this war with Milan at any cost? Are we willing to suffer excommunication? If we are, we will be a pariah in Europe. Those Hungarians gazing across the Danube will see it as God's will if they march on Vienna. The Venetians, never trustworthy to begin with, will receive a request from the Pope to cancel their alliance with us, as we have received the same request concerning Sicily. What will stop them from turning on us then? The same will happen with the Poles as well.

I was surprised to see the Prinz himself call for an immediate assault on the city of Milan, this from the wise man who proposed edict 1.1. It has not accomplished its task yet, Mein Prinz. We are not high enough in the Papacy's favor to move unchecked against our neighbors, even if they attacked us. The Prinz made several convincing arguments as to how we were to use the Papacy to our advantage, are we throwing that strategy away now?

Let no one doubt I wish to crush the Milanese! But first we must isolate them from Rome and the rest of Europe. Let us, in the beginning, fight a defensive war. Let them send armies into our territories to be slaughtered. We have terrain and shorter supply lines on our side. Let them waste their strength on attacks, while their aggressive actions anger the Pope. We should continue the work of edict 1.1 at this time, to improve our standing while worsening Milan's.

Once they have fallen out of favor with the Pope, or better yet been excommunicated, we can move with a free hand against them. Then we will assault and sack their cities! Then we shall drive them into the sea! The same goals we all seek, without the mess of excommunication.

If, however, the Diet still seeks an immediate attack on the city of Milan, we should bear in mind the likely consequences of our actions and start making plans to deal with them.

My lords.

Otto sits.

[AussieGiant]

My Lords,

Count Otto's comments are not without serious merit.

Given the latest information our Kaiser has just outlined in his Chancellor report there is something I believe should be considered.

Sicily is currently excommunicated. Keeping that in mind, if we fight a defensive war against the Milanese we maybe able to provoke the Pope into excommunicating them also. With both of these nations out of the Pope's favour we would be ideally able to exploit this to our own gain without fear of being excommunicated our selves.

I think we can all agree that our current standing with the Pope is not ideal. In fact I think he is looking at taking every opportunity to discriminate against us. Lets not fall into his trap.

The 4th Elector takes a seat

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I believe it is too early to determine Pope Gregory's opinion on this conflict. If the Pope had given an order to the Milanese instructing they lift the siege, then they would have done so. Otherwise Sigismund would not have needed to drive them away himself.

I am still anticipating an order from the Pope instructing me to cease and decist with the hostilities (OOC: Most likely I'll get this in 1120, if at all). Whether that order comes or not will tell us much about how active of an interest he is taking in this conflict.

[GeneralHankerchief]

-edit- Report is up.

Kaiser Heinrich:

It is now 1120, and the corresponding session of the Diet has now begun.

In a moment I shall inform you all of our current situation with an official report. In the meantime, I suggest that you review the latest maps yourselves:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1120.zip

Begin the session! *bangs gavel*

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I may as well start this off myself:

Edict 3.1: The Chancellor shall seek to have Milan cease to exist by the conclusion of his term.

Edict 3.2: The Chancellor is keep his alliance with Sicily, thus disobeying the Papal Order.

Edict 3.3: This edict authorizes (not instructs) the Chancellor to declare war on Hungary.

[OverKnight]

Mein Kaiser, mein Prinz and my fellow electors, first let me thank the Kaiser for his service as Chancellor! He, despite many obstacles, has led the Reich to a rebirth of glory and conquest!

I feel I must alert the Diet to some events that might effect our deliberations:

https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3466/papalforcesitalydj4.jpg

It seems the Pope is returning to Rome from whatever business he had in Genoa. It is the second time he has violated our territory. Yet, I find this second report more disturbing:

https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7969/venetiansnearviennaed2.jpg

What in God's name are those Venetian dogs doing there!? What do they hope to accomplish? It is a small force, but it is inside our territory and close to Vienna! I am glad the Kaiser had the foresight to recruit and move troops into the city. I hope such an act of strength will encourage those wayward schwein to withdraw back into their own lands!


On the issue of possible Papal condemnation of our war with Milan, I believe the Pope would only order us to cease hostilities if we move into Milanese territory. That is why I advocated for a temporary defensive strategy until they are cast out of the Church themselves. The Venetian incursion into Austria supports this policy. If we move into Milanese lands, we will be less able to defend against Venetian treachery, the "dire reason" Conrad von Schusslen spoke of in edict 2.4.

I look forward to the candidates for Chancellor presenting their manifestoes, particularly their plans for the war with Milan and their approach to the Papacy. I would be honored, as the Kaiser suggested, to lead an army against the Milanese! But we must consider the broader implications of our actions before we strike. Now matter what course the Diet chooses, we must keep our eyes open and our weapons at hand!

This issue is worthy of a vote in the Diet, therefore I propose the following edict:

Edict 3.4: A defensive war will be fought with Milan, no incursions into their territory, until they are excommunicated or our standing with the Pope is "very good" or higher.

Like all of you, I wish to crush the Milanese! But we must be patient in how we do so, lest the conflict widen.

Edit: I will second edict 3.1, as I have said, there is no conflict between destroying the Milanese and doing it wisely.

[Ignoramus]

Count Sigismund der Stolze rises to his feet and addresses the assembled Diet.

Mein gut electors, Prinz Henry, and Kaiser Heinrich, first of all I would like to reaffirm mein allegiance to mein Kaiser and mein Duke, Prinz Henry.

Sigismund turns first to the Kaiser and raises his right hand.

I solemnly swear to serve and obey mein Kaiser, Heinrich, in all that he bids me. Even unto torture and death I shall be loyal.

Sigismund then turns to Prinz Henry, Duke of Swabia.

I once again pay homage and swear allegiance to mein Duke, Prinz Henry of Swabia, for the County of Lorraine. I swear to follow and obey him in all that he bids me. Even unto torture or death shall I remain loyal.

Sigismund again turns to face the Diet.

Now, fellow electors, I must get to the things at hand. I, Sigismund, Count of Lorraine, and Elector of Swabia, do offer myself to govern our Reich for the next term.

My overlord, Prinz Henry, Duke of Swabia, has graciously given me his consent and approval.

I have seen now how our traitorous foe, the Milanese, can fight. They are not natural soldiers, but rather burghers and merchants. Nevertheless, even though they cannot threaten a fully equipped Imperial army, they are still brave fighters. I came across these burgher militiamen outside of Bern, and they fought bravely against our superior skill and arms.

However, though they be brave, they are still traitors; traitors to the Reich and Kaiser. We cannot allow these city dwellers defy the might of our Reich any longer. I therefore intend to extinguish the very name of Milan from the map. We must strike hard and fast. Our magazines at Innsbruck, in Bavaria, can now supply more soldiers than any other Schloss in our Reich, and, what is more, I have heard from Otto von Kassel, that the drillmaster there can now train Sergeants armoured in mail. Innsbruck also controls one of the major Alpine passes. Crossing the Alps under the leadership of a Tyrolean such as Otto von Kassel, therefore, ought to present no problem.

And also, Sigismund motions towards the Kaiser, there is the Kaiser at the city of Florence. Although the Florentines are but poorly trained in the arts of warfare, I am sure that under Kaiser Heinrich's leadership that they ought to better the Milanese garrison of Genoa.

But, despite all the the insults that the Milanese traitors have hurled at us, there is one insult that cannot go unpardoned. The Milanese have taken the city of Dijon. That city, and the Duchy of Burgundy, once belonged to our Reich, before that fop in Rome incited them to rebellion. What's more, the usurper, the self-appointed Duke of Milan, has taken to residing there. I humbly, therefore, intend to take the act of punishing this insult by retaking Burgundy for the Reich.

Sigismund takes a sip of his beer before continuing.

Secondly, mein electors, we have the issue of His Holiness the Pope. Twice, mein electors, twice, have they arrogantly violated our borders. His Holiness has no love for the Kaiser, and his hatred against the Reich is well known. I therefore agree with our Kaiser and I intend to disregard the orders of the Papal Court. If they disregard our orders, then we are under no obligation to follow theirs. What is more, Pope Gregory has excommunicated our ally, King Roger of Sicily, and placed his lands under interdict. To not come to the aid of our ally would reflect badly upon the Reich, and open us up to ridicule from the English and the French. I therefore seek permission to attack his Holiness if the Diet, in their wisdom, elect me as Chancellor.

Therefore I propose Edict 3.5:

"Sigismund der Stolze, Count of Lorraine, requests permission of the this assembled Diet to attack the court of Rome, should he become Chancellor"

Sigismund then turns to Leopold, Duke of Austria.

Duke Leopold has expressed concern about the actions of the Magyars of Hungary on our eastern border. I, however, am doubtful whether they would attack. They seem to be more likely heading north to Krakow. I would instead concentrate on securing our borders against the Venetians.

The Venetians have been spotted intruding into Austria. I suppose they are on another picnic again and intend to admire the scenery? These Venetians may be city dwellers, but that's hardly an excuse for forgetting where the border is. However, we have given our word that we are allies, and I shall not break that word.

Sigismund again sips his mug of beer and wipes his forehead.

Finally, gut electors, there is the question of what to do with the Poles. We have concluded an alliance with these people, and they have no sizeable force near our borders. Therefore, I doubt that there is much to be worried about them. But we must not drop our guard, lest we fall prey to a sudden assault.

That, my gut electors, is all I have to say. I thank you for listening to me.

Count Sigismund bows to the Diet and returns to his seat.

[Warluster]

An messenger races into the Diet area, worry on his face, and stops short of the crowd
"Good Day Sirs, The Second Elector of Swabia, has been un-able to attend these meetings as he was attacked by an angry peasent near by, and has been treated to by healers, he shall hopefully be back at the Diet soon, but now he is recovering from his wounds" finshed the messenger, and he raced out.

[TinCow]

Maximillian Mandorf rises and clears his throat.

My fellow Electors, Germans, Romans.

Mandorf bows to the Diet.

We come together today at the crux of history. What we decide in this Diet will impact the fortunes of the Empire for a thousand years. There are important decisions to make, important debates to be had, and we must unite in a single purpose against our common enemy.

Yet for all that, there we have a more important duty at stake here today. We must elect a Chancellor to guide us through the coming trials. It will be a difficult period and no matter how well we legislate, there will certainly be many unpredictable eventualities. It is thus of the utmost importance that the man who takes the burden of Chancellor has the wisdom to chart the proper course and the strength to hold the rudder steady during the storm.

I can think of no better man for this duty than Count Sigismund der Stolze. The policies he has proposed are wise and reasoned, but above all, he has demonstrated his ability to choose the proper course of action in a time of crisis. Who here can say that, were they faced with the Siege of Bern, they would have chosen the same course of action as der Stolze? I for one know that I would have attempted to hold the walls and wait for reinforcements. Count der Stolze chose the more tenuous path, the one this body believed was a greater risk. There was much fear in this Diet while we waited for news of the battle after his decision had been announced to us. Yet, our timidity was misplaced and it was Count der Stolze whose course was the right one. In a time of crisis, he analyzed the situation, made the proper decision, and then acted on that decision without hesitation. These are the attributes we need in the years to come.

I wholeheartedly support Count Sigismund der Stolze for the position of Chancellor. All who wish to benefit the Reich would be wise to do so as well. Accordingly, I will also second Edicts 3.1, 3.2, and 3.5. I do not oppose Edicts 3.3 and 3.4, but I will have to think on them some more.

Mandorf pauses and looks around the room.

There is another matter that I must discuss with you today, brothers of the Reich. I wish to address you on a matter of honor and justice.

As Steward of Bavaria, I have been entrusted with the welfare of my entire noble House. I am not a man of royal blood or with royal ties, but I care for the nobles of my House as much as Prinz Henry, Duke Leopold, and Duke von Saxony care for theirs. It is my duty to ensure that their rights are upheld and that they are treated with the dignity and respect that is accorded to every last Imperial noble.

It is with great regret that I must report that I have failed in my duty to my fellow Bavarians. The rights to land and title are basic ones which are essential to the operation of feudal government. Yet, the Bavarian electors have been deprived these rights and I am incapable of aiding them.

Bavaria lacks a Duke. This is through no fault of any party, but it is fact. Not only do we lack a Duke, but for various reasons not worth discussing here it does not appear that we will be gifted with such a noble leader for many years to come. This regrettably means that it will be impossible for any Bavarian to be appointed to the rank of Count for many, many years. I wish to emphasize the time period involved. At a minimum, it will be 20 years before Bavaria is provided with a Duke and such a situation could possibly even continue for the next 40 years.

This is a unique difficulty which will never befall any other House. Swabia, Franconia, and Austria all have Dukes to fulfill these sacred duties. Due to the nature of hereditary titles, none of these houses will ever require the services of a Steward ever again. The Bavarian nobles who are here in the Diet with us today are the only men who will ever be subject to this most unjust of laws. I believe that honorable conduct between nobles requires that such a prejudicial disparity be resolved promptly.

I wish to emphasize that I personally do not seek, nor would I accept, any other Ducal powers or privileges. I do not wish for the ability to appoint my successor. I do not wish to have a voice in the eventual appointment of our Duke. I do not wish to gain additional ‘Influence’ over what I now possess. No, my lords, I wish simply to be able to do justice to the Bavarian nobility by endowing worthy members with the title of Count.

Accordingly, I propose the following Charter Amendment:

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

As honorable gentlemen, I ask that you all look into your hearts and ask whether such a request can be justly opposed. There is no one to blame for the inequity, but it exists all the same and honor dictates that it be rectified. I humbly request your aid to allow me to do justice to the noblemen of my House.

[Ituralde]

My dear Kaiser, Dukes, fellow Electors!

It is indeed an important hour in which we meet here today. First I have to applaud my father, our Emperor Heinrich who has led us through the last years. Our hopes were down and our Empire at it's low-point, but he has managed, together with our guidance, to lead us back once more towards the glory that we deserve. May the next Chancellor be as successful as Kaiser Heinrich the Champion!

So far only Sigismund der Stoltze has stepped forward to take this duty and I also beleive that he would be most capable of leading our Empire. If my brother Henry puts the faith in him to let him stand for election, I think he should stand up to the critical looks of any man in this Diet.

However, I have to disagree with some of his political proposals and would like to echo Otto von Kassel to some degree, when I say that we have to be cautious. I don't need to remind you of the perils of excommunication and yet you propose us to take it on us once again.
Excommunication, gentlemen, would open our borders for every would-be invader that comes along. Some may even be inspired by the word of Pope Gregory to attack us, although they had no ill will against us beforehand. We may disagree with Pope Gregory's decisions in the past but let us not forget that he still is a mighty man and his word holds sway over the various Christian rulers of Europe. Incurring their wrath is something that we can not allow in our current situation. Our armies may be strong and able to defeat our foes even though they outnumber us, but were half of Western Europe arrayed against us, no courage and no bravery would save us.
I urge you Electors to consider these things, before you propose actions that lead us towards excommunication or even dare to attack Rome itself!

Now, the matter at hand is the war with the Milanese and you know that I want them wiped off the face of this earth. But we have to be careful. Patience is a virtue that we should not discard. An attack against the city of Milan is vital in our current situation. The attack on Bern can not be unavenged and the Duchies capital is under-defended and well within striking distance of our armies. An army from Innsbruck under Otto von Kassel joined by forces from Bologna should be able to attack the city within two turns. This should be our only offensive action against the Milanese for now. It will anger the Pope enough, of that I'm sure, but if we are fast he won't threaten with excommmunication until after Milan is firmly under our control. With the head of the Milanese snake cut off, we can rest back and allow Pope Gregory his will and let the Milanese come at us.

I think the essence of my intentions can be summarized by two Edicts.
Edict 3.6: The Chancellor has to avoid excommunication to the best of his abilities, by agreeing to the following: No offensive war may lead to excommunication and no attack on Rome is to be made.
Edict 3.7: A combined army under the lead of Otto von Kassel is to attack and take Milan as soon as possible.

Our other military forces should stay put and ward our borders. The Milanese may very well try to attack Bern castle once again and it would be a shame if Count Sigismund were halfway on his way to Dijon instead of putting his capacities towards the defense of Bern.
Me, I will stay in Vienna and amass a sizeable enough force to persuade any would-be attacker into rethinking his ambitions. I don't know what our allies are up to, marching troops through our countryside,but rest assured that I will watch them closely and destroy them utterly should they seek harm for the Reich.

Furthermore, I second Edicts 3.1 and 3.2.

Leopold looks around the Assembly quietly, passing each of the Houses with his glance to drive home the points he just made, before taking a deep breath and continuing a note mor jovially.

Maximilian Mandorf raises a valid point concerning a flaw in our current Charter and I have to agree with him. I second Charter Amendment 3.1.
While we are at the matter of Charter Amendments I'd like to put another small piece of legislation forward to this Diet. The late Second Elector of Austria Conrad von Schüsselen has thought up this Amendment, after discussions revolving around the distribution of settlements have arisen during our first Diet session. I owe it to this esteemed member of the House of Austria to at least present his deliberations to this Diet.
While we were able to agree on a common course during our first discussion, much of it revolved around the Kaiser following notions put forward in the Diet. While noble in thought it does not give any guarantees in case a Kaiser would be unwilling to listen to the Diet.
That's why I would like to put the following up for discussion:

Charter Amendment 3.2:
The House of Austria proposes a Charter Amendment which will anull §5.3 and change §4.3 to read the following:
"The allocation of settlements is decided upon in the Diet session that follows the capture of the settlement. Until then the captured settlement remains under direct control of the Reich. The voting for settlement allocation will follow these rules:
Each House has one vote, which will be placed by the respective Duke.
A majority is required for a settlement to be allocated to a specific House.
If there is a draw in votes, the Emperor may break the tie and grant the settlements to one of the tied Houses."

I would be especially interested in the oppinions of my father, Emperor Heinrich and my brother Henry who will eventually lead our glorious Reich as Kaiser. The intention behind the Amendment is not to wrest power from the Kaiser and give it to the Dukes, but to formalize the decision process for settlement allocations, while at the same time broadening the field of particpants to involve all parties concerned, equally. I'm looking forward to your honoured oppinions on all matters put forward by me and the House of Austria.

He bows slightly to the Assembly, before settling down again.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I would like to propose:

Charter Ammendment 3.3 Replace point 3.10 with

"Influential players get bonus votes (max +5 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 3 points):
Duke: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority."

Replace 4.5 with:

"Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House."

OOC: These are TinCow's proposals already discussed OOC. Let's keep discussion of them there, but they should be seconded and voted on in the Diet.

[Warluster]

The Second Elector of Swabia walks in with an walking cane, then sits down, where his Fellow Electors brief him on the situation
I see, I have no long speeh to bore you with, i have an short sentence to say. That is this; Sigismund der Stolze is an noble man, and he shall lead this empire onto glorius things. Just as kaiser Heinrich has done.He bows to the Kaiser I support the decision fully that the Count Sigismund should become Chancellor, thank you for listening
The Elector sat down, feeling his stomach where he was attacked

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I am proud to support my adopted son and fellow Swabian, Count Sigismund, in his candidature for Chancellor. I believe a term of 20 years (10 turns) may be an appropriate term of office, given the rigours of war.

However, I confess, I am reluctant to sanction an attack on Rome at this stage. It is true that sooner or later, we - the Holy Roman Empire - must occupy Rome. It is only right and fitting. But I had thought that we should delay such a move, until we stand as the clear and unchallenged leader of Catholic Europe. At present, our position, although strong thanks to my father, remains fragile and I fear we could be torn down if our many Catholic neighbours all turn on us following our excommunication. As I have indicated before, I would prefer us to use the Papacy and benefit from the wave of religious zeal that is engulfing Europe.

In this respect, I see much tactical advantage in Sir Otto's proposal to sucker the Milanese into attacking us again repeatedly and let them become excommunicated. Were that to happen, we would be free to strike at all their cities without being ordered to desist by the Pope. And indeed, we could call a mighty crusade to crush Milan, attracting fine zealous fighters to our cause. I would ask Count Sigismund to ponder Duke Otto's strategy and perhaps see Milanese excommunication as the trigger that will allow him to achieve his rightful goal of crushing Milan without risking a wider conflagration.

I second Constitutional Ammendment 3.1. It is unjust that Bavaria is denied Counts due to the absence of a Duke. Remedying that injustice is a simple matter.

However, I strongly oppose Constitutional Ammendment 3.2. I confess, I do not see how this is supposed to work, given the naked conflicts of interests between the Dukes when making such decisions. In my mind, I have an image of a newly acquired settlement as a captured fox and see the Ammendment as proposing it be thrown to a pack of hounds. I fear hounds may behave decorously by comparison to how men will squabble over the division of the spoils. Such naked competition may foster conflict between Houses and division that weaken our empire.

It may be that the Dukes could come to some non-competitive solution - perhaps agreeing on an allocation on geographic lines. They may then come to behave less like hounds and more like those slothful reptiles from Africa and Asia who lie idly even when thrown fish or meat. Such an outcome may rob the Empire of some of its dynamism - Houses will no longer have to distinguish themselves to achieve rewards. Or it may skew our statecraft so that it becomes directed towards territorial expansion in the area of influence assigned to the most politically powerful House.

So, fellow Electors, I have deep unease with Ammendment 3.2. I would prefer to see the Emperor remain free to reward Houses with settlements. He will allocate them as he judges fairest and most conducive to the good of the Empire. Aside from anything else, the Ammendment would seem to rob my father of his one real power and reduce our Empire to something more properly corresponding to a Republic, albeit one fractured on geographic lines. We have constructed a more subtle system of checks and balances, with a separation of powers. I would like to see evidence of the system failing before supporting such sweeping change.

Prinz Henry sits down, then Sir Otto approaches and whispers something in his ear. Henry thinks for a moment, then rises again.

On reflection, I second Edict 3.4.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

This is not the time to make use of tactical maneuvering or diplomacy. This may shock the Diet, I know, but now is the time for something different.

In the twilight of my Chancellorship, the Pope had the audacity to twice -twice! - violate the Empire's borders and instruct me on how to conduct diplomacy. He flaunts his power and authority openly. He knows that we have not the resources to seriously challenge him, so he prances through Imperial territory with the largest army he can find, knowing we can do nothing. The Milanese, our former subjects, seek to now make us their subjects. They have brazenly besieged Bern, which we at the time had just conquered.

Now is the time to show the world our power.

I admit, good Electors, that I am to blame for the reason that we have had to reclaim our glory in the first place. I have made some errors in the past, if you will. The Investiture Controversy threatened to shatter our Reich and change the way Europe has worked forever - in a way the second scenario has already happened. However, I do believe that the actions that this Diet and I have taken in my just-concluded Chancellorship have prevented the gradual crumbling of this great nation.

What we have accomplished in the previous years is no small feat. Under my Chancellorship, we have doubled in size. We have grown in power, and we have financially stabilized ourselves. Why should we still be taking orders from Pope Gregory and fighting passively against the Milanese? These people had the nerve to attack us, to publicly humiliate us! We must strike back with a fury. We do this so that all the world knows that they are subservient to us!

I remind the Diet that we have been given an oppurtunity to shine on the world's stage with the Milan and Papal situation. I beg to them that we do not squander it.

If we properly make a statement now, then I assure you, we will have to worry about very little for quite a long time.

Edict 3.8: Milan is to be crushed by an offensive campaign, one that does not wait for Papal opinion or any other outside factor to strike. Kaiser Heinrich is to have a major role in this campaign.

Edict 3.9: Edict 1.1 is hereby repealed.

I second Edict 3.5 and Charter Amendments 3.1 and 3.3.

I also support good Sigismund der Stolze in his bid for Chancellorship. May he lead this Reich into a golden age more golden than the world has ever seen.

[TinCow]

Maximillian Mandorf jerks to his feet with a gleem in his eye, his arm snapping into a stern military salute.

Mein Kaiser! I can walk!

Mandorf pauses and shakes his head from side to side, as if he had walked into a spiderweb.

...my...apologies... gentlemen. I do not know what came over me.

Mandorf regains his composure and continues.

Kaiser Heinrich shows the courage of a true Emperor! We must seize the opportunity presented to us and strike deeply into the hearts of our enemies. We must, of course, despose of the rebellious Milanese, but if we do so and leave the Usurper intact, he will send another one of his subjugated Kings against us. If the Reich is ever to be truly secure, we must ensure that the Papal throne is fully within Imperial control.

Some of you propose restraining our assault, fearing the Usurper's power. Some of you want immediate action. I believe there may yet be a way to assail Rome without provoking severe retaliation from those Catholics who have bent knee to the false Pope. I have heard rumors that the Pope is considering calling a great Crusade to return the eastern lands to Catholic control. I feel as if this event is over-due and may well be called soon. Once the Pope calls for this mass campaign, he will be unable to assemble sufficient resources to ask for a second one against us!

We should move against the Milanese now, restraining our wrath only on the threat of immediate excommunication. Yet, once Gregory's Crusade is launched, we should strike at all remaining Milanese forces and then take on Rome itself. We will certainly be excommunicated by the false Pope, but with all of his followers responding to his first call to arms, no friendly nation will raise arms against us. Perhaps some may take advantage of our disfavor to attack, but any who would do so would likely strike soon anyway.

Let us destroy the Milanese and return Rome to the Empire! As a final measure, it would be my dying wish to see the Kaiser himself cross the floor of the holy basilica in Rome. Let us send a message to all Christendom that the laws of God cannot be violated!

Edict 3.10: If Rome is assaulted and Kaiser Heinrich is alive, he must lead the attack.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Naturally, I second Edict 3.10. I would be honored to fully redeem myself.

I remind the Electors that if they agree with Edicts it is not enough that they vocally support them, but officially second them. Otherwise the scribes could get confused.

[AussieGiant]

Standing slowly the 4th Elector of House Austria composes himself for a moment:

Kaiser Heinrich, Prinz Henry, Dukes of the Realm, fellow electors,

Gazing out the great window above the heads of the assembled nobles, the 4th elector says absently

Attack Rome you say...

Very few things in life are absolute gentlemen, however, if we attack Rome, then this course of action will provide for some absolutes in our life time.

Raising his voice and beginning to pace in front of the Austrian benches the 4th Elector continues

First, WE WILL BE EXCOMMUNICATED...fact!

Second, our Reich and the people WE lead will question us and our actions...we will need to spend far more resources controlling our own population than we currently do....fact!!

Third, we will be surrounded by 7 Catholic nations of which only 1 is not able to attack us with the Pope’s backing. The military options open to our enemies will be unlimited. Are we really in a position to conduct a potential war on such a scale?

Fourth, our trade and current financial status will drop sharply.

The pacing continues, however his voice lowers to a normal level again

Without try to sound like a bore my lords, WHY are we considering attacking the Pope?

Forgive me if I am not overly impressed by the words of outrage and such. Whether we like it or not, the POPE is the POPE. Spitting in his face, taking his city, slapping his arse will not change that!!

To openly defy him has never brought ANY nation ANY benefits. Are we not able to learn from the past? Is anyone able to outline ONE benefit to this Diet?

I think it`s time gentlemen, to put aside our personal ambitions, our hidden agendas, our outrage and our egos and keep in mind the normal people of our realm, and THEIR condemnation of US if we were to take this course.

Stopping for the moment and standing quite still, the 4th Elector smiles to the gathered nobles

I personally think it's time we cease drinking the Absinth Duke Leopold has brought back from Prague...go outside and do one of the following things...or, both if they really take your fancy...

...strip yourselves naked, and have each of your page man throw a bucket of cold water on you from the battlements...or, go to the jousting range and have Helmut, our local jousting champion, slam his lance once or twice against your Great Helms, and NOOO, that’s NOT the great helm on your head gentlemen...I mean the OTHER great helm we all have!!

I say this my lords, because it’s that level of pain and suffering the people of our nation will surely feel if we allow our secular ambitions to convince us, that attacking Rome is in the best interests of this Reich and the people we have the privilege to govern.

I therefore second edicts 3.4, 3.6, 3.7 and Charter Amendment 3.3

My God rest our souls!!!

[OverKnight]

Otto looks tired. Over the course of the speeches calling for an assault on Rome he has sunk lower and lower in his chair. After hearing the speech of the newest member of the Diet, Otto seems to come to a decision. Clenching his jaw he rises to speak:

My lords, before I return to the topic that seems to have dominated this session let me propose a somewhat unrelated edict:

Edict 3.11: The Chancellor will endeavor to construct naval forces capable of blockades and transport of mid-sized armies in the Baltic and especially the Mediterranean. Dukes and Counts are encouraged by the Diet to build port facilities in their domains, if applicable.

What ever course we choose fellow electors, we are no longer an inland Empire. Our current and future foes will posses navies, and we must build one of our own for both offensive and defensive actions.


As much as I would like to leave this topic behind me forever, I must return to this Rome adventure.

Otto pauses, a picture of confliction, he takes a deep breath and speaks again:

I hope you understand, my fellow electors, that my opposition to seizing Rome and our subsequent excommunication stems from my opinion of what is best for the Reich at this time, and not any sort of regard for Pope Gregory himself. I respect the power of the office, not the occupant.

This reckless scheme would perhaps not fill me with so much dread if those who proposed it had a specific plan in mind for the aftermath. My Steward's thoughts on using a Crusade as cover for our actions are clever, but we do not know when this will occur. How long will we wait under Interdiction Maximillian?

What would we do after taking Rome and "deposing" the current Pope? We would still be excommunicated, we would still be at war with the Papal States and most likely a few other Catholic nations. We have no Cardinals among the Preferati, so we cannot guarantee a friendly replacement. What do you think would happen if a Milanese Cardinal was elevated to the throne of Peter!?

The next Pope would most likely still oppose our war with Milan and we would find ourselves back in a similar situation. So the way I see it is, we invade Rome, suffer excommunication, and possibly bring the combined forces of the Catholic world down on our Empire, and for what? Revenge against one man. . .one man. This is hubris.

So I ask you Kaiser Heinrich, Count Sigismund, and Steward Mandorf what do we do after you have had your vengeance? How will we restore our relations with the Church and our fellow Catholic nations? What will be the final price for your pound of flesh?

I await your answers.

But know this, no matter the outcome, I serve the Empire!

Otto sits, miserable and clearly drained.

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopold has been shaking his head to the speeches following his and now finally, after Otto von Kassel has spoken, a thin smile creeps on his features. His hand steepled in front of his face, his gaze travels to the mentioned persons, awaiting a response.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Thanks to the sterling efforts of Gunther of Eichstadt (dlain), a list of current edicts and ammendments has been posted at the front of the Diet:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1378792&postcount=1

(I also note that I second Edicts 3.6 and 3.11).

The closing time for seconding edicts will be Thursday 9am UK time. There will then be a 24 hours period of voting.

[OverKnight]

Otto, his head in his hands, glances up and sees the smile on Duke Leopold's face. Trembling with rage, he leaps up, nearly knocking his desk over.

Ah, yes, I had almost forgotten! Duke Leopold please take my name off of edict 3.7! I will not be your catspaw! It's the same trick von Schusslen tried years ago. We agree on Rome and Milan, my lord, but not much else.

Otto sits again, rubbing his right temple and muttering to himself.

[TinCow]

(OOC: Gunther von Kastilien is Dutch_guy. Dlain is Otto von Kassel.)

Maximillian Mandorf meets Duke Leopold’s gaze, unblinking.

Excommunication…
Vengeance against one man…

These are statements of fear and submission. One the subject of excommunication, there are only two issues; our immortal souls and the consequences in this life. The former will not be imperiled, as Gregory is a False Pope, without the blessing of God. His words and deeds carry no influence in the Heavens. However, it is wise to take the latter into consideration before acting.

As has been stated, there will be turmoil within the Empire and without. We can certainly expect those who have fallen under the sway of the false Pope to cause trouble in our cities, but this is of little concern to us. Many of our provinces are castles, which will have no problems controlling such individuals. Our cities are for the most part extremely well governed and controlled. Few, likely none, would even require a reduction in taxes to keep the citizens content.

Of our neighbors, few have any real potential of harming us. Poland and Venice are our allies. They will not strike at us. Milan will soon be crushed no matter what. Denmark has little power to speak of and I am certain that the most noble House of Franconia could seize their lands in short order if called upon to do so. Despite all of the concerns raised over the many enemies that would attack us, there are really only two nations which have the potential to cause us problems: Hungary and France.

Our borders with France are minimal and they in turn share borders with 5 other nations, excluding ourselves. I find it hard to believe that they would choose to attack the strongest of their neighbors, given their situation. Hungary, however, is of legitimate concern. We have already seen their armies prowling around Vienna. It is clear that they desire the wealth of the Empire. I believe they will strike us no matter what we do. As such, moving against the Pope does not put us in any worse a situation than we are currently in.

On the contrary, I believe taking Rome now will be of great advantage to us. If we do not return the Papal throne to Imperial control, we will be bending knee to every whim of every Pope for the next thousand years! If the Pope were a properly ordained and appointed man, then we would have to respect his orders. Gregory is not such a man! He is invalid and his laws are invalid. He will do everything in his power to obstruct us and the rightful order and his successors will likely do the same.

If we move on Rome now, we will perhaps experience short-term difficulties, but in the long-term we will benefit the Empire. If we coordinate our assaults properly, Gregory’s army can be destroyed and Rome itself can be seized in a very short period of time. Once this is achieved, we can then create a new home for the Papacy in a place of our choosing. This will make the next Pope extremely grateful to us and put him physically within our control. Surely the Emperor will approve of his appointment beforehand, thus making his rulings valid law which we must obeyed. The Empire can then freely donate money to the Church knowing that it will be spend in God’s work rather than funding a minion of Satan.

As for where to locate the new Papacy… I would be willing to give up Nuremburg itself for the properly appointed Holy Father. Nuremburg is completely surrounded by the Empire, ensuring that our control over the Pope will never again be questioned. While Nuremburg is a beautiful city and a current financial center to our economy, it is landlocked and has limited trade potential in the long-run. Any loss of income from Nuremburg will surely be negligible in comparison to the prosperity we will gain from Rome itself.

I propose that we continue with the planned attack on Milan and wait to see if there is a call for Crusade from the Pope. If the Crusade is called, we should then immediately assault the Eternal City and the Pope’s forces with all available strength. If the call for Crusade does not come by the mid-term session, we can discuss whether or not to proceed at that point.

The coming years will likely result in many unpredictable events. I have been loathe to formalize this strategy into an Edict, but it appears that for clarity it might be necessary. I do not believe this Edict is necessary for this plan to succeed, but I shall propose it anyway to allow for proper discussion.

Edict 3.12: The Reich will immediately and aggressively attack Milan, ceasing the assault only under threat of immediate excommunication from Gregory. If a Crusade is called before the Diet session of 1140, the Reich will immediately and aggressively assault the Pope’s army, Rome, and any areas still under Milanese control. If a Crusade is not called before the Diet session of 1140, the assault on the Pope and Rome will be discussed again at that time.

Edict 3.13: If Rome is taken at any time during this Chancellorship, the Papacy will immediately be given a new home that is within Imperial control. In that event, an Emergency Session of the Diet will be called to determine which province is to be donated. As the Pope will then once again be approved by the Kaiser, regular funding will be properly given to the Church to allow it to continue God’s works.

Do not shy away from difficult times, my fellow noblemen. We will be opposed, to be sure, but we pursue a holy cause, ordained by God. Let us weather the difficulties so that we may restore Heaven’s influence on earth and benefit the Reich for centuries to come.

Mandorf crosses himself and sits down.

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopolds smile does not falter at the outburst of Otto von Kassel, but he can hardly maintain it throughout the length of Maximilan Mandorf's speech.

Very well then, I will rephrase Edict 3.7 to suit von Kassels wishes. Surely our next Chancellor can find another man that won't shirk at the prospect of combat.

While we're discussing other Edicts I can not agree with Edict 1.11. I see no reason why Austrian money should be wasted into some pity fleets as long as our holdings remain completely landlocked.

Austrian merchants have informed me that the profits we receive from our Silver mines surrounding Vienna could be greatly increased if we were to set some of our merchants on trading these ressources. They tell me that the initial investment of recruiting those men will break even around the end of the next Chancellors turn and will then start to generate profit.

I propose Edict 3.14:
Two merchants are to be trained in Vienna and set to trading the two Silver mines in the countryside surrounding Vienna.


With those formalities out of the way, I think it's time to move on to more pressing matters, concerning the warmongers amongst us. His gaze travels to Mandorf.

Your personal sentiments for Pope Gregory aside, I think your plans lack a certain element of foresight. Perhaps your rage against god's represantative on earth has blinded you to the possibilities the future has to offer. Surely if all went as you described the future would look most prosperous for us and the Reich. However your plans contain so many possibilities for faliure that I don't even know where to start.

First you expect the Pope to call some sort of crusade or another against the infidels? Then you propose that we stir the righteous zeal of our peasantry and nobles to have them embark with us on this noblest of endeavours just to lie every one of them in the face. For instead of utilizing their zeal against the heathens that trouble Jerusalem itself, you want them to fight against their fellow Christians? Have you no honour left in your soul, has your hatred for Pope Gregory withered all of it away?
Even if enough corrupted souls could be found to support your endeavour against Rome, don't you think the French, the English and even the Milanese will have stirred up their populace to follow Pope Gregory's call. Do you think those armies would stand idly by while you attack the city of Rome itself?
Even our closest allies will consider breaking our bonds, because once we're excommunicated our word will weigh less than a feather within Christian Europe. Do not discard the Venetians or Poles so lightly once Gregory has given them an opportunity to fight against infidels, not somewhere far away, but right at their doorstep. The same goes for the other countries whose power on the field you discarded so lightly.
Then you intend to slay Pope Gregory on the field of battle and take the city from his successor, who will then thankfully accept our hereditary lands. Do you really think he would be gullible enough to accept any land we offer him? The Milanese, the French, the Hungarians, they will topple over themselves in trying to be the first to give the Pope a new home from where he can continue his war against our Reich. What do we do then, my dear Mandorf?

What if every nation of Europe turns against us and the Pope is amongst them supporting their cause, while you have just lied to your Subordinates and thrown away their souls to purgery or worse?
Your revenge will be a short one, while all we have worked for so hard will be torn asunder by our enemies.
Your plan, and any plan that let's us suffer excommunication and even tries to attack Rome itself, is pure and outright folly! Every man with a sane mind should be able to see this!

I once again urge every Elector to support me in Edict 3.6 to avoid that the vainity and hatred of a few men, destroy what so many of us have worked so hard for during the last years!

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia ask for permission to speak after listening carefully what the others have sayed.

"Kaiser, fellow Electors. Now that war is upon us we should keep a clear head and keep ourselves concentrated on our main goal. That is in my wiew, to defeat the enemy, so there can be peace again.
I have listened your words and some sound very disturbing to me. Challenge Pope? Take Rome? How long is from the last time these kind of thoughts were flying around in the Diet? How long is since our Empire nearly collapsed becouse of the strugle between Kaiser and Pope? Do we want to take the same path again, just when we are just about getting back on our two feet after the last strugle. I hope not.
The fact is that the Milanese have offended us by attacking our castle at Bern. This gives us legimite reason to end the rebellious existence of Milan. So i propose following edicts:

Edict 3.15 : Taking the city of Milan,Taking the city of Genoa and taking the city of Dijon.

I suggest attack with three forces. One against Dijon,lead by our Prinz Henry with our Swabians,possibly strengthened with mercenaries. Second against Milan lead by Otto Von Kassel,using troops from Innsbruck. Third against Genoa,lead by Kaiser with our Italian troops.

Edict 3.16 : Incase papal bulla is ordered to stop the attacks.We will stop all attacks against Milanese until the bulla expires.

I think it would be foolish to go now against the Pope and in order to create better relations i propose:

Edict 3.17 : Offering of mutual right of Passage to Papacy.

I understand that in current disturbed times. The Holy father needs an armed escort when moving around and we shouldnt think that as hostile action towards us.

To other matters. I see that in North there are German troops sitting on their hands and easy pickings to take:

Edict 3.18 : The Reich will take Antwerp from the rebels.

As i have heard Antwerp is almost undefended and we cant leave that rich city in hands of the rebels. I hope my fellow electors will consider these thoughts."

The Fifth Elector of Swabia bows to the Diet and takes his place.

[OverKnight]

Otto looks almost like his old self as he rises to speak:

First, Duke Leopold, I do not shirk from combat, anyone who was with me at Bern knows that. It is a strange accusation coming from someone who besieged Prague longer than the Greeks did Troy!

Turning from the Duke, Otto nods to the Fifth Elector of Swabia:

You have some good ideas there Sir. I will second edict 3.15. I appreciate the fact that it does not have a time frame.

The other edicts you propose, however, I will not second. 3.16 calls for a stop to our attacks against the Milanese if the Pope warns us to cease hostilities. I believe we can still attack Milanese forces within our borders and not violate this warning. Your edict, as I understand it, would call for a stop to all offensive actions against Milan, within or without our Empire. I admire the spirit of the edict though, as it mirrors 3.4.

3.17 would entail allying with the Pope and then giving him military access, this I cannot support.

I have heard from many travellers (OOC: Looking at our border with Antwerp in the game) that Antwerp has fallen to the Danes, this would invalidate 3.18. The Danes assaulted Antwerp from the sea, bypassing Hamburg, something the Diet should keep in mind when they decide on edict 3.11.

As for some of the other recent edicts. . .

Otto pauses to rub his right temple.

I second edicts 3.10 and 3.13.

I hope the Diet can recognize the distinction between opposing a plan of action but trying to ensure that if it passes, it is in a form that has the best chance of success. It is a fine line I admit, but one I must walk.

If, and I hope we do not, go to war with the Pope, the Kaiser deserves to lead the assault. We also need to make plans for the aftermath. As Maximillian has been the only one of the three calling for the war to spell out any strategies for coping with this, I will second his proposals that do not call for an immediate or mandated attack on the Pope.

Otto sits.

[Kagemusha]

The Swabian Elector stands up and says looking towards Otto Von Kassel:

"Thank you for clarification of the situation in Antwerp. I shall therefore withdraw Edict 3.18 : The Reich will take Antwerp from the rebels.
. Im still concerned of the Diets wiews about the Papacy and i recommend that the Diet should also think of the impact attacking Papacy and Excommunication could cause in the Reich. While i believe that The Holy Roman empire is the crown jewel of Christendom. Let it be made clear that i will not draw my sword against the Pope,who is still the representative of God on earth and i pray for the souls of those who would be willing to disgrace the Holy Father. Maybe those of you who are eager to attack Pope, should take the cross and go to fight the heathens in Holy land to purify your souls from evil."

Fifth Swabian Elector sits down.

[TinCow]

It appears that some of you have forgotten your loyalties to God and the Kaiser. Those who shy away from a conflict with Rome due to concerns about the welfare of the Reich at least have proper priorities, even if their conclusions are faulty. The same cannot be said of those of you who actively support the Usurper. To these people I say, beware. If you persist in your blasphemy, you will reap an unholy harvest, if not in this world, then in the next.

I have said all I wish to on these matters. It seems that most of you have made up your minds to support Satan's servant on Earth. As such, I will simply second several Edicts that I think are worthy of being put to the vote. I hereby second Edicts 3.8, 3.11, and 3.15. I would second Edict 3.9, but this Edict is not necessary, as Edicts expire at the end of the Chancellor's term in which they were proposed, unless they specifically state otherwise. Since Edict 1.1 did not contain such language, it has expired and does not need to be nullified.

[AussieGiant]

With a slight frown on his face the 4th Elector of House Austria rises to speak

I'd like to ask the Steward of Bavaria which church he is representing in order to use the words Usurper, blasphemy and Satan's servant on Earth to describe the Roman Catholic Church currently residing in Rome?

How have you come to your conclusion that the current church and its POPE are invalid Sir?

What is a "Properly ordained and appointed man" mean exactly, and how is subjecting the Catholic Church to Imperial Control going to be followed by members of the Clergy?

Is his issue with the person holding office or the establishment as a whole?

I'd like to point out that there seems to be a blurring between issues of faith and the secular or non-religious consequences of attacking Rome.

Likewise, the plan outlined by the Steward of Bavaria, does not address my question of what benefit this action gain for the Reich.

A loose explanation of a possible event timeline is not comforting.

Taking a seat the 4th Elector of House Austria summons a Page man and hands him a note

[TinCow]

Surely I do not need to give the Austrian Elector a history lesson. The Investiture Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_crisis), as people are calling it, is well known to all educated citizens of the Reich. This is not some old or forgotten issue. Pope Gregory illegally disregards Kaiser Heinrich's rights to approve of the appointment of clergymembers. These rights are ancient and have been upheld for nearly a thousand years. They do not cease to exist simply because some poorly bred bastard in Rome says they do. Kaiser Heinrich has not given his approval for Gregory's appointment, as such his Papacy is invalid. Those who support Gregory are supporting nothing less than a revolt against the ancient order of the Christian Church.

(OOC: This is all based on the historical conflict between Emperor Henry IV and Pope Gregory. Read the wiki article and you'll understand it's significance and why it's proper to have the Papal issue at the forefront of HRE politics at this time. Historically, Gregory won. CA actually based the starting order of the game on this, as reflected by the HRE's very low starting standing with the Pope and by Rome being one the HRE's victory conditions. Remember, both Henry IV (Heinrich) and Gregory are alive in our current game. Not likely that this issue would have been forgotten. Indeed, historically Henry V (Prinz Henry in our game) continued to fight the Papacy for the rights of Investiture and only gave them up late in his life.)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I remind aspiring candidates for Chancellor that they have slightly less than 13 hours to come forward. Otherwise, Sigismund der Stolze automatically is elected to the position.

As far as my opinion on this, I have already made my feelings public. The Reich will *not* come under attack from every single Catholic faction, because they all have their own problems, and I'm sure some of them have their own quarrels with the Pope. At the very least, we will have Sicily's support, meaning that Rome is surrounded by hostile people. That in itself will make Pope Gregory think twice about excommunicating us.

[OverKnight]

My lords, with only a few hours until voting begins, less than half of the proposed edicts have the needed two seconders to be on the ballot.

If you plan to second something, I would do it now.

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Stolze looks up hurridly and gets to his feet.

Fellow Electors, I wish to second the following edicts:

Edict 3.1
Edict 3.2
Edict 3.3
Edict 3.5
Edict 3.8
Edict 3.9
Edict 3.10
Edict 3.15

Charter Ammendment 3.1
Charter Ammendment 3.3.

That is all. I thank you.

So saying, Sigismund resumes his seat.