View Full Version : Most overall powerful faction?
Pre-gunpowder: Russians. They have the dism. Dvor, Dism. boyar sons, Bedirche axemen, Boyar Sons, Cossacks, Dvor Cavalry, and Tsar's guard. All of which are just great units, and some of which play two roles quite well.
Post-Gunpowder: Spain. Not only do you have Tercio pikes, dism. chivalric knights, musketeers, conquistadors (mtd. and Dism.), Amulghavars (sp?), but you can pretty much leave all of your settlements as cities. Your ranged units (musketeers) come from cities, as well as your line troops (tercios), sword units for enemy spears (swordsmen militia), and cavalry (gendarmes, although recently quite controversial :laugh4: ).
One might argue that France takes the cake for Pre-Gunpowder, and the only reason that I'd say "maybe" is that France and Russia have different play styles. Russia requires more finesse, while france is a typical western power. :laugh4:
DukeKent
01-08-2007, 20:02
England, can't beat being an Island for defensible position. Economic might translates easily into military might. It is easier for England to concentrate on building an economic powerhouse. Things like converting castles into cities, I only have Nottingham as a castle in Great Britain, and 1 regional castle to every 4 - 5 cities on the continent. The longbowmen rule, and the English really aren't lacking in any other troops. Although worthless in vanilla, even the billmen are good after the 2hd bugfix. The game is really already decided by the time the late era troops show up anyway, and they only lack pikemen in the lategame.
England, can't beat being an Island for defensible position. Economic might translates easily into military might. It is easier for England to concentrate on building an economic powerhouse. Things like converting castles into cities, I only have Nottingham as a castle in Great Britain, and 1 regional castle to every 4 - 5 cities on the continent. The longbowmen rule, and the English really aren't lacking in any other troops. Although worthless in vanilla, even the billmen are good after the 2hd bugfix. The game is really already decided by the time the late era troops show up anyway, and they only lack pikemen in the lategame.
My beef with england is the lack of really shining heavy cavalry, and no anti-cavalry infantry to speak of. Gunpowder doesn't yield anything really amazing for england either, except for mortars.
Also, considering the AI's new tendancy towards naval invasions, England isn't really that amazingly secure.
Here is a post I made in the .com forums in reply to a "best catholic faction" thread-
You have to divide this question up into two segments, Pre and Post gunpowder.
Pre-gunpowder: France, no questions asked, no quarter given. They have horse archers, longbowmen, pikemen, halbredier troops, sword troops, three different kinds of excellent heavy cavalry, crossbowmen. The only thing that france doesn't have is french ninjas, which if were part of the french roster, would be more cost efficient than anyone else's ninjas by virtue of being part of france.
Post-Gunpowder: Here, the french start to decline. The focus isn't on heavy infantry anymore, because a new saltpeter based substance is sweeping the world. There isn't much of a point in investing in a wall of armored troops when they only provide a better target for a well placed musket bullet. Spain, in my opinion, takes the cake.
Why is this? Your late game armies need to have three basic elements, with the elements divided for special occasions.
Base Line Infantry >>> Tercios
Ranged Infantry >>> Musketeers
Cavalry >>> Gendarmes
Now the Tercios will hold the formation pretty well, especially against the one thing that late game armies seem to sport; heavy cavalry. Musketeers will take care of the heaviest of the heavy enemies, and Gendarmes with their good charge and armor rating will take care of any infantry that threaten the line.
If you need heavy hitters for city assaults, fear not. Spain has Dis. Chivalric Knights, some of the best foot infantry around. Spain also has, upon reaching the americas, the Dismounted Conquistador. This nasty son-of-a is just as good as the dis. christian guard that the moors have, and will whipe the floor with most other heavy infantry.
Artillery isn't a problem for spain either, since spain also has the basilisk.
Now as far as early game goes, one could even make a case for spain based entirely off of Jinetes and Almulghavars (sp?), which are killer troops if used with a little skill and intelligence.
Editted for spelling errors.
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
01-08-2007, 22:22
If we're counting ALL factions, I'd have to say the Timurids are by far the most powerful.
They get some of the best heavy lancer cavalry avaliable to any faction, and, of course, elephants. You don't need cannons when you have three units of Elephant Artillery - that's 45 Serpentines right there. Oh, and don't forget about rocket launchers. And if you go into the unit file and enable Elephant Rocketeers, there you have your best artillery unit mounted on top of your best cavalry unit, elephants.
Then add the obligatory horse archers, their armored ones being as good as the Byzantine Vdaroataaas[oasitoi.
The fact that they don't have any good infantry is belied by the fact that infantry are absolutely useless in M2 when you have elephants to knock them down and heavy cavalry to roll in right behind and trample them while they're down.
Here is a post I made in the .com forums in reply to a "best catholic faction" thread-
(...)
Editted for spelling errors.
Although something has to be said about how easy each unit is to get and how costly it is, if you favor Spain, you can't dismiss Portugal.
Jinetes, check
Almugawhars, check
Tercio, Aventuros are superior
Musketeers, check, with a superb earlier unit in the Portuguese Arquebusiers
Cavalry, no gendarmes, best bet is Santiago, or Conquistadores, neither as easily available. Portuguese weak spot.
Add in Dismounted Portuguese Knights, a very different unit from its spanish equivalent, more of a flanker with high attack and armor piercing abilities.
Aventuros requirement of highest level barracks in a castle, make them hard to replace as you conquer forward, so in terms of the campaign Portugal may be a bit lacking compared to others, but unit per unit, you do have to consider it.
Dave1984
01-09-2007, 00:28
I'm going to have to go for an odd choice, the HRE. You begin with OK-but-not-great troops, but easily enough to hold your borders, and they are easily needed often enough, and in late game you have this juggernaut of a military machine that simply rolls over anything anyone else throws at it. You have prosperous northern Italian states and provided you act decisevely enough, from your very central position you effectively control who else rises and who falls. From that everything else is simple.
I would have said the English as they are the most vanilla of the vanilla factions and have their secure starting position and foothold in France. I don't believe the naval invasions have that much effect on the security of these islands because any fool can do the easy thing and build 2-3 full stack fleets and have them watching the channel and the Irish sea, but the preponderance of the longbowmen which can be a real problem but are easily nullified by a concerted cavalry attack and the rather limited infantry and cavalry choices mean that England slips down the most powerful rankings quite easily.
More units and accessability, and not so much starting position.
The starting position for spain could be relatively weak, and the position for England phenominal, but I could theoretically just pack up most of my military on a ship, take over england, and gift the spanish provinces to the pope or Portugal and moors, so that they destroy each other.
@ Madkow-
Portugual did cross my mind, but the lack of really great heavy cavalry and the dependance on castles for a good army sort of changed me back around.
Iposethe... -
This is just based on playable factions. Thanks for the warning on the timurids though.
baron_Leo
01-09-2007, 01:57
Why is the starting position weak of Spain? When you have conquered the Iberian peninsula, you have an almost as good position as England. And I am not using the patch (I think I am not the only one) but instead I am using mods for the bugs, so when I lock gibraltar, the only problem is the Pirenees (I still don't know how to spell them - someone please tell me) And if you coquer Tolouse, that will be the only city/castle which needs defense until you conquer further. And yeah Knights of Santiago...they rule.
the only problem is the Pirenees (I still don't know how to spell them - someone please tell me)
Pyrenees, so you were close.
Braedonnal
01-09-2007, 02:17
Jinetes, check
Almugawhars, check
Tercio, Aventuros are superior
Musketeers, check, with a superb earlier unit in the Portuguese Arquebusiers
Cavalry, no gendarmes, best bet is Santiago, or Conquistadores, neither as easily available. Portuguese weak spot.
My problem with Aventuros is really the impetuousness. I don't want them holding my line, personally. I agree on all the other points though and Portugal is very tough without a doubt.
I think that spain's biggest advantage is that they have all of the main bases covered from the city, which eliminates the need for castles in the late game.
Czar Alexsandr
01-09-2007, 03:23
The best faction hands down is Russia! None can stop the mighty hordes of Cossacks and mighty Tsar's Guard!
He he... my apoligies.. it's my favorite faction. What do you expect?
Well honestly they are really good. The Dvor horse archer is excellent, almost uncontested as the best heavy horse archer. Tsar's Guard can make knights pale when they're put into a close mellee. Boyar Son's used correctly can kill any othe javilien cavalry or at the very least in mellee. Dismounted Boyar Sons and Druhzhina can axe just about any armoured unit into bits. And the Cossack Musketer is excellent at his job. Only Janissary muskets are better. And even then only by a bit. The Basiliac can turn your enemy into early aviators -_O or the castles walls to rubble easily.
Oh and.. to clear up confusion... I'm not Russian. I'm British. Well.. sort of. I'm American of English descent.... -_-
I've been playing my first game with Portugal and they are pretty powerful compared to Britain. The trick is to learn conquest through diplomacy. In short order I had the Moors down to only Granada on Iberia and the Spanish trapped in Leon. Sent a team to Timbuktu but Moors beat me there by 1 turn. Went on to Aquin to grab it. Conquered the rebel provinces and grabbed Bordeaux before the Frenchies. The French attacked, were trounced and I got Toulouse from them as a peace settlement. Convinced the Moors to give me BOTH Granada and Timbuktu for a peace settlement, then crushed the Spanish in Leon. So I have all of Iberia, great buffers in Bordeaux and Toulouse against the Catholics with mountains to fall back to, great colonies. The only thing I need now is Marrakesh to hook it all together. I can defend against the Catholics easy without Papal interference and roll along north Africa towards the Holy Land.
ANY Iberian starting position can be worked into a powerhouse equal or better than the British Isles. Once you have Iberia... you can relax and go at whatever pace you want.
IrishArmenian
01-09-2007, 03:37
The only area Russia lacks in is the pikemen. I'd go with Spain or Portugal post gunpowder, but with Russia, I just recruit mercenary pikemen. Then my Russian Hordes are unstoppable.
DukeKent
01-09-2007, 06:15
One way to decide for yourself is to play 2 or more factions for yourself in a multiplatey hotseat campaign. I tried Spain and England in my first. Loved it, loved playing as Spain even more than England in that game. Playing as Spain was much more challenging than as England (love Jinettes:yes: ). As England you quickly become an unstoppable juggernaut. As Spain it takes much longer to climb to the top of the hill. Since I was playing as both factions I made them allies. Much more finesse is required in the early game for Spain. Don't take my word on it, try it you'll like it :beam:
Mongols, period, once they settle down they conquer the middle east like its going out of style, hell if I look with toggle fow off it looks like there taking care of the turmuids pretty easy they got about 3-4 full stack armies going against the turmids atm, I actually feel sorry for "Khan" who is leading the turmids
derfinsterling
01-09-2007, 08:49
I'm playing the Moors and have recently gone to conquer Italy. I bribe my few allies with money so they don't backstab me and have a few wars going against the smallest Christian nations - HRE, Milan, France, England (gave the Scots 20.000 gold as a gift - that saved them from being crushed and enabled them a counter-invasion to the South. a few well-placed assassins has England almost taken out of the war already).
Anyway back on topic: The moors are pretty good. Great starting position with the gold and Ivory in Africa and easily conquered neighbours in Iberia.
Camel troops that scare the christian horse cavalry and the Tuareg camels with muskets are a frightful thing to behold - I've beaten 2:1 odds easily with a few of those units in the front as skirmishers, with the more average units behind them to mop up whatever comes threw. Recently I acquired the Dis. Christian Guard, but have to send them to battle first. And I'm looking forward to my Sudanese Handgunners...
Plus: Assassins are great. 85 Assassins against over 500 French town militia, a little cavalry and crossbowmen gave me a 1:1 ration at the battle overview.
And now I got two Assassin's Guilds...
But I agree with one of the above posters: The late troops don't matter that much because the game is long decided before.
Definitely the hre simply because of their position.
If you act decisively you can develop an economic base that cannot be bested and pump out your exceptional troops (as an example, i hold all of europe (ie france, spain, britain, scandinavia, greece and germany) and some of russia at turn 50 on vh/vh) which are equal to all but ha heavy armies (and you can just autocalc them)
Could you post a screenshot of your HRE campaign,Sapi?It really sounds great:)
I wouldn't rely on tercio or aventuros to hold my main line, they can very easily snap if you're not micromanaging the quirks with their pike formations, nevermind if the enemy flanks you.
Basileus
01-09-2007, 23:06
Factions that have Horse Archers are the most powerful, my pick will be the Turks becuase JHI/JA/JM..oh and imagine if they could get pikes heh
General Zhukov
01-09-2007, 23:42
Factions that have Horse Archers are the most powerful...
Seconded, with the modification that factions with the most powerful and varied cavalry are the most powerful. That happens to usually be factions with HAs. I understand the Turks are very poweful in the cavalry department, though I would point out that Eqypt is no slouch with the horsies either, begins near choicer trading lands, and is within spitting distance of Jerusalem.
Any faction is great, as long as you use them wisely. But to add my two florins....
My first choice would be HRE. My explanation: what people have already said and I won't repeat.
My second choice would be the Mongols, because they're onto everything near them like bees to honey, like a bum on a cheap cracker, like a fly on shit. I find their armies diverse enough to be threatening.
Take a look at Mongol Infantry. They are good long-range archers and they can go into melee. Now that's a worthy double function.
Their cavalry's good too. What about missile cavalry, hm?
England would be a close third, because they begin in a very stable (and comfortable?) position, and their armies are stable to begin with. You can quickly rise to power, as in the late era their armies will still be stable and diverse enough to conquer and conquer, and conquer.
I wouldn't pick Spain at all as a strongest, unless they can stay alive and have a good economy, and with that good military in the late era of which people speak.
Point is, if they have weak armies to begin with, how are they going to conquer in the beginning to ensure having those superior units (pikemen, musketeers, the heavy cavalry)?
Maybe I don't like 'em 'cause I'm not such a missile cavalry person.
Spain has great early units in the amulghavars, which are probably one of the most underrated units on this board. Thirteen attack on an armor piercing javelin? Can we say "pin with spears and kill"? :laugh4:
I admit, their lack of early spears is annoying, but nothing that mercs and town militia can't cover, especially considering the general uselessness of spears in MTW2.
Jinetes are even better, since the horse gives them the time to get away, which means that they get a chance to loose all of their javelins.
Still, Amulghavars have a slight 4 bonus against cavalry. They're better than spearmen.
TevashSzat
01-10-2007, 01:04
I would have to say the turks because of their awesome janissary infantry and siphais. Being able to recruit HAs in cities helps alot too. They are bascically the only faction where it is feasible to play without castles. Although their starting position is weak financially, they have a great chance of gaining so many good cities from the levant with two or three jihad armies.
Still, Amulghavars have a slight 4 bonus against cavalry. They're better than spearmen.
Spear bonus 4 vs cavalry is as good as most spearmen and halberdiers, plus they have superior attack in general, so they will kill cav faster than spearmen. They also get the spear charge resistance (although it's hard to tell what that does). They are awesome light infantry and easily make up for Spain's lack of heavy infantry in the early game. Spearmen that can shoot.
Darth Nihilus
01-10-2007, 01:45
Pre-gunpowder the most powerful faction to me would be France. They were extremely easy to win with and their unit roster is amazing. Post-gunpowder I would probably say Milan. As Milan you get so crazy rich. I love debates like although they hardly ever get resolved because everyone has their own opinion. Also everyone has a different style of play too, so for me it would be either France or Milan.
Could you post a screenshot of your HRE campaign,Sapi?It really sounds great:)
linky (http://users.on.net/~purdsa/temp/hre2.jpg)
(Sorry about the quality - i don't have photoshop installed atm and so i had to use paint. As it is it's far too big to post inline :laugh4: )
Near the start i had a fantastic win:loss ratio for battles (something like 50:1) but i needed to start fielding navies so it's since dropped dramatically :(
baron_Leo
01-10-2007, 03:12
They are bascically the only faction where it is feasible to play without castles.
Have you played with Milan or Venice? You'll never gonna need castles.
I go with Russia, Portugal, and Venice/Milan.
I don't consider strategic position to be a factor, since with a great unit roster you can easily crush larger armies and change your strategic position.
Russia is probably my favorite unit roster in the game. Heavy armored Jav-cav, Druzhina (Which are surprisingly good in actual combat, stats notwithstanding), and Berdiche Axemen all available from near the beginning of the game. Khazaks and crossbow militia fill out your early roster with missile power. Late game Dismounted Dvor, Dvor Cavalry, Tsar's Guard, Boyar Sons, Cossacks, Cossack Musketeers, and the Berdiche Axemen who are useful right till the end of the game make you a true powerhouse.
If you're a competent cavalry commander you should easily be able to swallow the northeast quarter of the map before you run into any serious opposition, which makes you an economic powerhouse as well. Sure, you'll have to deal with the Mongols, but I don't understand what people think is so hard about that...
Portugal has every advantage that spain has, plus the best pikemen in the game and an elite arquebus unit. Can't complain about that or their strategic position. They're basically Spain +1. 'Nuff said.
Venice and Milan are both powerful. They each get musketeers, a good selection of cannon, including monster ribaults in the late game. In the early game they both have excellent militia and servicable cavalry. The main difference between them is that Venice gets Venetian Heavy Infantry, one of the best heavy infantry units in the game, and Milan gets Genoese Crossbowmen/Militia, which are arguably the best crossbows in the game (Aventurier are better in melee, but weaker against ranged fire due to lack of pavise).
Honorable mentions to:
The Moors, whose Urban Militia are free upkeep units comparable to Dismounted Chivalric Knights. Tuareg Camels which seem to have an inexplainably powerful charge and as a nice addition will easily rout enemy cavalry, and Camel Gunners, the mounted missile troops with the best ranged attack in the game.
France, with their Aventurier, Lancers, strong horse archers and overall good cavalry power. Unfortunately I feel that Catholic style cavalry forces simply don't compare to eastern style.
And finally, the Turks, if only because of the Janissary Musketeers. I don't really care for the rest of their roster.
I go with Russia, Portugal, and Venice/Milan.
I don't consider strategic position to be a factor, since with a great unit roster you can easily crush larger armies and change your strategic position.
Russia is probably my favorite unit roster in the game. Heavy armored Jav-cav, Druzhina (Which are surprisingly good in actual combat, stats notwithstanding), and Berdiche Axemen all available from near the beginning of the game. Khazaks and crossbow militia fill out your early roster with missile power. Late game Dismounted Dvor, Dvor Cavalry, Tsar's Guard, Boyar Sons, Cossacks, Cossack Musketeers, and the Berdiche Axemen who are useful right till the end of the game make you a true powerhouse.
If you're a competent cavalry commander you should easily be able to swallow the northeast quarter of the map before you run into any serious opposition, which makes you an economic powerhouse as well. Sure, you'll have to deal with the Mongols, but I don't understand what people think is so hard about that...
Portugal has every advantage that spain has, plus the best pikemen in the game and an elite arquebus unit. Can't complain about that or their strategic position. They're basically Spain +1. 'Nuff said.
Venice and Milan are both powerful. They each get musketeers, a good selection of cannon, including monster ribaults in the late game. In the early game they both have excellent militia and servicable cavalry. The main difference between them is that Venice gets Venetian Heavy Infantry, one of the best heavy infantry units in the game, and Milan gets Genoese Crossbowmen/Militia, which are arguably the best crossbows in the game (Aventurier are better in melee, but weaker against ranged fire due to lack of pavise).
Honorable mentions to:
The Moors, whose Urban Militia are free upkeep units comparable to Dismounted Chivalric Knights. Tuareg Camels which seem to have an inexplainably powerful charge and as a nice addition will easily rout enemy cavalry, and Camel Gunners, the mounted missile troops with the best ranged attack in the game.
France, with their Aventurier, Lancers, strong horse archers and overall good cavalry power. Unfortunately I feel that Catholic style cavalry forces simply don't compare to eastern style.
And finally, the Turks, if only because of the Janissary Musketeers. I don't really care for the rest of their roster.
Portugal is good, don't get me wrong, but a dependance on castles will get stomped by the economic superiority of being able to produce entire armies from cities. That doesn't even mention that Portugal is missing a really heavy cavalry unit outside of Santiagos, which is a big handicap in my opinion.
I'm starting to rethink my nomination of Russia for only pre-gunpowder, because of their lack of pikes. If you think about it, mercenaries would be easier to retrain at the front, so landschnect pikemen are probably going to be my staple pike unit.
Darth Nihilus
01-10-2007, 07:04
As a die-hard total war fan since the original MTW came out, I have always loved to analyze factions. I agree with the folks who say that the eastern horse archer armies are very difficult to deal with(in RTW I almost exclusivly played with Parthia) . All of my follwing opinions are with the human player controlling the faction and not the ai. Some of these were hard decisions because several factions have really good unit rosters.
Best starting location: England, (2nd Sicily)
Worst starting location: Holy Roman Empire, (2nd Turks)
Best overall unit roster: Holy Roman Empire, (2nd Milan)
Worst overall unit roster: Scotland, (2nd Egypt)
Easiest faction: France, (2nd England)
Most diffucult faction: Byzantines, (2nd Turks,and honorable mention to HRE)
My favorite faction to this point: Holy Roman Empire, 2nd is Milan
Best overall faction (Impacted by starting province's strategic locations, wealth of starting provinces, unit roster and overall technology and general ease of playing with)..........
France
My reason for choosing France over...say....Russia, is that playing as France, the player will have a much wealthier start, and has much more access to naval trade. Of course all of these opinions are base on how I play the game, so I certianly do not expect everyone to agree with me.
@nihilus, i'd have to say that the hre's starting location is an advantage, not a disadvantage - it has a lot of room to expand very quickly.
@Musashi
Honorable mentions to:
The Moors, whose Urban Militia are free upkeep units comparable to Dismounted Chivalric Knights. Tuareg Camels which seem to have an inexplainably powerful charge and as a nice addition will easily rout enemy cavalry, and Camel Gunners, the mounted missile troops with the best ranged attack in the game.
Yeah, they're pretty good, having good units around. But I don't really agree with what you say about starting positions (position-wise and/or political/religion-wise). If we look at the Moors, it's one of the few Islamic factions, meaning they will easily make many Catholic enemies who can crusade onto them in the blink of an eye. Or maybe more blinks. However, their geographical position ain't bad.
Von Nanega
01-10-2007, 12:01
I found the Danish to be very good. I have had the most long term success with them. Playing da Portugese now. That is interesting as they have a totally differant play style required to win.
@Musashi
Yeah, they're pretty good, having good units around. But I don't really agree with what you say about starting positions (position-wise and/or political/religion-wise). If we look at the Moors, it's one of the few Islamic factions, meaning they will easily make many Catholic enemies who can crusade onto them in the blink of an eye. Or maybe more blinks. However, their geographical position ain't bad.
Nah. Crusades always get sent after the Turks and Egyptians. The moors don't actually have to clash with the Catholic factions at all, and honestly, none of the catholic factions can stand up against Moorish troops in the early game anyway, so it's nothing to sweat over.
Seriously, if you're any good, and you have good units, you should basically be able to handle war with every other faction in the game at once. The AI is not worth anything on the battlefield.
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