Spartans

[CrownOfSwords]

Ive played several campaigns now and feel that I have the game pretty felt out, so today I looked through all the factions in the custom battle screen and noticed the Greeks have the Spartans which they did not in the previous versions so I started a Greek campaign. Well the year is 250 BC I have about a full stack of Spartans seperated into various cities. I want to play a defensive campaign for once and try to just conquer Greek territory and hold it the entire game or to the best of my ability, I also disabled fog of war so I could see what the AI does.
But to the point of this thread, I am not sure which Spartans you are trying to represent Sparta was not at nearly its former glory at this point in time, yet the description of the Spartan hoplites sound as a description of the unit from a far previous time, so this is my problem if you are trying to give a weakened version of the unit then I have no problem with what they are now, but if you are representing the unit as they used to be they are not powerful enough. I believe this could be easily solved by giving them their 2 hitpoints back which in my opinion is a good representation of a Spartan warrior: able to continue fighting despite being greviously wounded. I have found this unit too often taking severe casaulties from a unit they should not have I lost nearly 40 of the 120 to a 1v1 fight against peltastoi. Maybe they should also have the "Frighten nearby infantry" trait. What is everyone else's opinion on this subject?

[Caratacos]

I agree with the frighten nearby infantry trait. Just the spartan name would make brave soldiers weary and weary soldiers wimper (imho).

[Watchman]

They'd gotten stomped flat head on several times already during the pre-Hellenic period. Circumstances (eg. some pretty nasty casualties among the homoioi) forced them to kind of lower the standards if they wanted to put armies of any decent size to field and by the by carry out some much-needed social reforms.

By the EB timeframe they might still have had a bit of a reputation and an impressive espirit de corps, but their heydays were long past. Having to fight something more than the part-time sunday-soldier hoplites of the old days probably also had an effect.

If I've understood correctly their real role in EB is that of elite "classical" hoplites (ie. shock infantry) who pretty much have to be killed to the last as their stellar morale score keeps them fighting on in some pretty ghastly circumstances.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

But should you implement a type I goverment (spartan agoge) those Spartans would (or rather should) be as good as their ancestors.

[fallen851]

The aura of the Spartans pretty much ended when Thebes laid the smackdown on them.

At least if I remember correctly.

[Watchman]

Thebans among others. There was apparently one instance when a Thessalian cavalry force bloodily routed an entire Spartan expeditionary force back to their ships with zero casualties (claimed, anyway) - presumably a surprise assault.


But should you implement a type I goverment (spartan agoge) those Spartans would (or rather should) be as good as their ancestors.I think you should read the relevant description in a bit greater depth. Anyway, back in the olden days the Spartans' chief advantage was always psychological - they were long the only true standing, professional army in the land of sunday soldier militias. Obviously that gave them a major edge in confidence in a straight clash (indeed the opposing phalanx often broke and ran even before contact, although this was by no means all that unusual in hoplite clashes), and a string of victories naturally grew them a fearsome reputation which only added to the intimidation effect.

But that was then. Several bloody routs sort of take the luster off such reputations.

[CrownOfSwords]

Yeah but the question is what type of Spartan hoplite are we controlling? I believe they should have the frighten nearby infantry trait no matter what due to their legend. Yet as a player presumbably under the right leadership Sparta could rise again as a power, but this is a historically correct mod so the question is leave the alright but not superpower spartans alone or make them into their previous glory? Its just hard to believe men raised from birth to be soldiers are less powerful than men such as the Thorikitai Agrysipdai of the Seleukids who are far stronger than the Spartans.

[Watchman]

You're missing the point here. That "legend" has for the most part crumbled by the EB timeframe. The Spartans may still be famous and good fighters, but they are no longer (and haven't been for a long time) feared. The precious few infantry types that actually frighten_foot (I can't think of any besides the Gaesatae, Tindanotae and Wodanawulfaz) do that because they are known to have gone to considerable lenghts to appear fearsome, crazy and scary to their enemies - indeed it is apparently one of their main weapons.

As for "raised from birth to be soldiers", bah. That goes for all true warrior classes for what it's worth. The Thorakitai Argyraspidai are conversely crack veterans drawn from the best the Argyraspidai and other elite units have to offer - of course they're badass.

[Kralizec]

The defeat at the hand of the Thebans was only the coup de grace of the Spartans. The numbers of the real elite, the spartiates had dwindled from about 5000 in the beginning phase of the Peloponnessian war to around 1000 (I recall) due to low fertility and impoverishment.

[swhunter]

True i agree on the spartan points also.
But this game gives a fighting chance for all factions depending on the skills
of the player.
Are all units historical? Mostly the best you have done.
I have seen some other greek sites that shows from 300- 100 b.c.
that the helmits are different than i see here. Not saying all are wrong
but the type i saw looks like the old spartan or greek helmet.
Would that be a problem to change a few hats ?
For the greeks ?
thanks

[QwertyMIDX]

That helmet you're talking about is the Cornithian helm which, as far as practical, widespread military use is concerned, was out of use by the end of the 4th century. It was still often depicted in scuplture and sometimes worn in parade armor, but definatly not something that was still used in a battlefield situation.

[-Praetor-]

That helmet you're talking about is the Cornithian helm which, as far as practical, widespread military use is concerned, was out of use by the end of the 4th century. It was still often depicted in scuplture and sometimes worn in parade armor, but definatly not something that was still used in a battlefield situation.

Not really related to te spartans in any way, but since the Corinthian Helmet topic just sprung up, I`ve had some curiosity with the the Equites Consulares units.

They use a version of the corinthian helmet (I think, if not, please correct me), but they use it not fully on their head, but more like in a "at ease" position... like over the head, but not fully on the head. It always reminds me of the famous busts of Pericles...

http://www.crystalinks.com/pericles.jpg

In war situation, by using the corinthian helmet in such fashion, they have their face uncovered, they have got better visual and can hear their officer`s commands better.

But I`ve always had doubts whether a person may or may not fight with the helmet in such position. Kinda the equilibrium of that helmet should be precarious, and in a cavalry charge, it always had given me the impression that it would end up flying if the horse suddenly stops, becoming more a weapon in charges than the lance itself. :grin:

The thing is, did they used that helmet in that way in combats, or did they used that way in resting moments, and lowered it to their face when in combat?

Thank you!

Cheers! :medievalcheers:

[abou]

The helmets that the Equites Consulares and Triarii wear are what is known as the Etrusco-Corinthian or Italo-Corinthian. It is a sort of corruption of the Corinthian helmet itself taken from all the busts and statues (like the one you posted). Essentially, people enjoyed the way it looked when pushed back and so helmets were designed to appear that way with fake eye holes and nose guard. The helmet fit properly and was only cosmetic. Here is an example: http://www.royalathena.com/pages/greekcatpages/Bronze/Armor/CLG127.html

The Corinthian itself seems to have fallen out of favor simply because it severely impeded the wearer's visibility and hearing.

[CrownOfSwords]

Well show me something that proves the agrysipidai went through training as ferocious as the agoge, and then maybe ill consider them as badass.

[Geoffrey S]

You're missing the point. Namely, that Spartans in the prime of their martial prowess were the best because they were a professional force fighting what were essentially part-time troops, either from Greece or from Persia. By the time in which EB takes place they were far from the only professional force, with certainly the surrounding Hellenic kingdoms relying on standing armies, and hence their advantage of being the only professionals on the battlefield no longer existed. This is the reason for their lower stats: they're still an excellent unit, particularly the morale, but there is no reason for them to have better attack or defence than other high-class troops.

[CountArach]

I was wondering how long it would take for a "Spartans are not accurate" thread to come up...

[Thaatu]

When you have a Spartan hoplite unit with experience level 7+, that's when you have the true Spartans that would make their ancestors proud.

[MiniMe]

When you have a Spartan hoplite unit with experience level 7+, that's when you have the true Spartans that would make their ancestors proud.
And when you have a Greek Slinger unit with experiense level 3+, that's when opponent's heroic experiensed spartans join their proud ancestors =)

[Thaatu]

And when you have a Greek Slinger unit with experiense level 3+, that's then opponent's heroic experiensed spartans join their proud ancestors =)

Well they were born to die. :shrug:

[-Praetor-]

And when you have a Greek Slinger unit with experiense level 3+, that's then opponent's heroic experiensed spartans join their proud ancestors =)

LOL :grin:

[swhunter]

Kraso and abou i like those ideas!
I do like the hist. comments about this modd makes the game better understood.

I also do like the examples of those hemits. Could that be added in the next
patch? Some of the units helms dont look as cool. Mabe less shinny? ect. ?
Instead of haveing the old bowl on the head for a haircut!

I came from 3 modds
1st XGM small modd ( Expanded Greek Version.)mostly unhistorical.

2nd Barebones ( All Unhistorical !

3rd Lusteds Modd ( which is better but the egyptians are from the mummys return rejects! less unhistorical

4. Now here ! Which i love the factions/ New also! And
the skins! Mapp !! Excellant! Events! And the Monuments and places of interest are very well done!

5. The enemys faction ( i dont know their name ,could be worked on!
I feel i am fighting my own men!

I know they are greek rebles but at least different color of cloths or leather
or whatever could be needed. Some shields i have seen dont have the design from the cards.
is that normal ? also in other factions i see peasents but if you use them
they are a differnt unit on the field.

The skys are cool but there is also a new sky modd with thunderstorms
and differnt skys to blood red ( See Roma Surrectum.

I would love i have a shock troops for them modd and all i thought was the spartans and maybe athans. Could something be done as close to history
and the points brought up?

True the spartans didnt do well later, or were as feared ,and had their time.
Yet this modd gives factions chance to expand to take the world
where in History it never happened!
So is that Historical?
Point is can a few old timers be left? With the old spartans helmits
not saying change everything!
But add a few units ( Which you have greater provided!
thank you i hope this isnt on the wrong page.
And thank you guys for the history.
Makes this exciting!
Also sirs! What is the new update due and what is on it?
Can you help?
thanks again.

[Fondor_Yards]

IMO they shouldn't get the frighten_foot trait. If we gave every "badass" unit this, then battles would be 10 times shorter and most mid/low level troops would on contact or before. Dosidataskeli, , Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha, Goidilic Ordmhornaght, Carnute Cingetos, Kluddobro, Rycalawre, Soldurii, Arjos, Galatikoi Kleruchoi, and Galatikoi Kuarothoroi would all need the traits according to the badass meter, and these are only celtic and iberian units.

[Kralizec]

"badass" unit....Kluddobro

I assume you mean Kluddargos:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/05cas/barb_clyddbren_briton.gif

and not...
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/05cas/barb_clyddabre_briton.gif

[CrownOfSwords]

^hahahah

[Orb]

As for Spartans causing fear... would they cause fear to an enemy who had never heard of their reputation (e.g. Saka or Saba).
I think not, moreso than another elite unit.

The Gaesatae and Wodanowulfoz would be scary to just about anyone not using a bow, on a hilltop or a horse and a good distance away. The Spartans wouldn't.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes, though, a naked men's unit in front of an elite pike unit, with between them a hedge of 6m long pikes... 'scaring the willies out of' the pikemen? Especially regarding the height on which the pikemen prefer to hold their pikes... :inquisitive: That has puzzled me for quite a while...

I'd say the reverse would have made more sense, but then again: sense & reality don't always get on that well... :juggle:

[Fondor_Yards]

I assume you mean Kluddargos:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/05cas/barb_clyddbren_briton.gif

and not...
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/05cas/barb_clyddabre_briton.gif


Well that second guy does have a pretty big steak knife...but yea I mean the first guy :sweatdrop:

[Thaatu]

I know they are greek rebles but at least different color of cloths or leather or whatever could be needed.
Personally I hate specific colours for units depending on their faction, ie. pink Parthians, green mercenaries. I mean if one has banners enabled you really can't mix up yours and enemy's units.

Some shields i have seen dont have the design from the cards. is that normal ? also in other factions i see peasents but if you use them they are a differnt unit on the field.
There are no actual peasant unit in EB, so those units with the peasant unit cards don't have their actual cards made yet. Just remember to check the names of those units before fighting them, or you might experience some nasty surprises. :sweatdrop:

I would love i have a shock troops for them modd and all i thought was the spartans and maybe athans. Could something be done as close to history and the points brought up?
Read some of the descriptions of your units and what their place was on the battlefield and you'll find more than enough shock troops.

Yet this modd gives factions chance to expand to take the world where in History it never happened! So is that Historical?
Don't go all philosophical on me. ~:rolleyes:

What is the new update due and what is on it?
I've heard it's on LSD... uhhm, it's for 1.5.

On a side note, that Kluddargos is really badass.

[Zaknafien]

The expansion of factions is up to player skill. EB's goal is to accurately portray the starting positions in 272 BCE. From there its up to the game to re-write history.

[swhunter]

thanks
good reply, that does help alot!
could ths spartan helmit at least change?
Not as the old ones in the past
but at least cooler a different type ? But aslo historical?

Sorry my last message wasnt clear.
Is there a new update ? When ?
What does it fix or change?

Last question !
Why are soo... meny gauls in the roman army in the west?
I am playing as Greeks and my spys see alot of gauls ?
Why not romans?

Iam playing on easy modd
just to get the feel of it.
What is better for a good campaign ? plus keeping the greek armies alive?
These is high cost for their units!
thanks once again.
:yes:

[Sarcasm]

It can't be, can it?...*whispers* Abokasse?

[Tuuvi]

who the hell is that?

[Sarcasm]

*whispers* Some say a genious, others a madman...a few call him a prophet...who knows...

[Tuuvi]

he sounds like a dumbass to me...

[fallen851]

Wow the intelligence of this thread just dropped to zero.

[Thaatu]

It can't be, can it?...*whispers* Abokasse?
Thou shalt not typo the name of our saviour.


he sounds like a dumbass to me...
Thou shalt not pass judgement unto others based on their grammatical mishaps (except if the name of our saviour is typoed).


Wow the intelligence of this thread just dropped to zero.
Thou shalt not evaluate the intelligence of a thread by it's content... no wait.

Matter resolved, judgement has been passed.
Now... a big hug!
~:grouphug:

Repent you sinners.

[Sarcasm]

he sounds like a dumbass to me...

...ok...joke's over... :no:

[Dumbass]

he sounds like a dumbass to me...

Someone called?

[Abokasee]

he sounds like a dumbass to me...

~ Death Comes to you ~

Dont tell me you don't know me? Im the god of bartix!

[Thaatu]

:weirdthread:

Anyway, back on topic:

Spartans... a weird bunch, huh? Not too laid back, a little too serious if you ask me... All in all, pretty nice people.
Does anyone have anything to add to this?

[Eduorius]

I have not played with KH in 0.8, just because they are going to make a lot of changes to that faction in 0.81.

I think that Spartans in EB must have the same stats as a classical hoplite since they both use the same weapons. The only thing I would chage is making them have a huge moral boost so that they all decide to die fightin before running away.
I would also change, more than their cost, the time they take to be trained. I think like 3 or 4 turns to show the little population of Sparta and the hard training of this guys.

[Kugutsu]

I dont think the stats are merely a reflection of the type of weapons. If you give a farmer the same spear as a soldier trained from childhood, theres no way he would be able to do the same damage. Knowing how to use the weapon effectively is a large part of being dangerous.

[adishee]

I have not played with KH in 0.8, just because they are going to make a lot of changes to that faction in 0.81.

Such as? (just curious)

[Moros]

I dont think the stats are merely a reflection of the type of weapons. If you give a farmer the same spear as a soldier trained from childhood, theres no way he would be able to do the same damage. Knowing how to use the weapon effectively is a large part of being dangerous.
I'm not sure but I believe it's done like this:
Elites have a greater chance at doing a succesfull hit than peasants. But the lethilty of weapon is the same or something.

[Eduorius]

Such as? (just curious)

Well I heard that King Areus will start with better units like Spartans and Cretan Archers. I think all the region of Greece will have changes in the army composition at the start.


On the other theme what people are saying is correct. I didnt tought of that, but a strong guy does more harm with a spear than a weak one.

[Caratacos]

I'm not sure but I believe it's done like this:
Elites have a greater chance at doing a succesfull hit than peasants. But the lethilty of weapon is the same or something.

Well surely the "Defence Skill" of a unit is based on skill and can therefore be increased with elites.

It's also interesting how RTW doesn't have an "attack skill" and say "weapon quality"... or are those combined for the melee/missile attack? It's just that Attack and Defence seem to work differently in how they are worked out/represented. Not the best sentence i've uttered but surely you know what i mean.

Oh yeah spartans... Nice enough guys (aye Thaatu)... But bad breath... real bad. :yes:. *Waiting patiently to see if anyone gets my not-so-funny-cryptic-joke*

[Watchman]

Units have both the actual attack score (you know, the one that shows up on the info card and goes up with exp and weapon upgrades) and a lethality rate (the last number on the weapon statline in the EDU if you're interested). The EB team clearly have a system for allocating the former, but they've fixed the latter by weapon type. For example, daggers and knives have the feeble "kill rate" of 0.04; infantry spears 0.125 or 0.13 (both appear in the EDU); mid-sized swords 0.13, axes 0.165, longswords 0.225, kontos lances a whopping 0.4... Mind you' I've no idea what the "kill rate" values mean in entirely practical terms beyond "higher is more killy", but I wouldn't be surprised if the nosy folks who post at Ludus Magna had figured it out long ago.

Anyway, far as I can tell the Spartan stats relative to those of standard Classical Hoplites seem to be pretty much in line with the usual difference between line troops and well-equipped elites in EB.

[QwertyMIDX]

.125 is for underhand spears while .13 is for overhand. Overhand spears get less of a bonus against cavalry though.

[Watchman]

So that's what it was. Wondered about that for a while.

[NeoSpartan]

actually, if you put the EB Spartans in HOLD they can kick some serious ass.


p.s lost my RTW CD!!!!!!!!!!!! haven't played EB in a week :embarassed:

[Caratacos]

actually, if you put the EB Spartans in HOLD they can kick some serious ass.


p.s lost my RTW CD!!!!!!!!!!!! haven't played EB in a week :embarassed:

So that HOLD thing actually does something for the unit (statwise)? I thought it just told them to sit still. Hmmm you really do learn something every day.

Sux about the CD.

[-Praetor-]

Put one spartan unit on defensive, on a perfect square, on each of the flanks of your line, and you can forget about your flanks until the end of the battle.

Place some Thorakitae behind them, at a prudent distance (30m, if hidden, better), and once the cavalry attacking your flanks is tired, charge your rested thorakitae units on each flank, and crush the enemy flanking units, leaving enemy flanks exposed.

They work wonders to hold enemy flanking units in place (they are not terminators though, if they are attacked by Ethiophitai Agemata and Hetairoi from all sides, they will suffer). To flank them yourself, use the thureophoroi or thorakitae you may have on reserve.

You do keep a reserve in battles, do you?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Such as? (just curious)

Having some of the current underhand fighting guys (hoplitai haploi?) fighting over hand. At least Teleklos Archelaou mentioned a while ago that KH would feel completely different from it's northern neigbours by 0.8.1 in battle compared to what is now.

[QwertyMIDX]

The KH will have both classical phalanx units and the underhand iphikrateans. They will also eventually have a sarissa unit or two.

[adishee]

I was under the impression that even southern Greeks were fighting in a more macedonian style by 272.
Does Achaean greece have it's own fighting style? Or did it, rather?

[QwertyMIDX]

It's not that cut and dry. Different greek states adopted macedonian style fighting forces at different times, and they didn't always stick with them. Competting iphikratean, celtic and thracian influences were all important as well, as was the glorious tradition of the hoplite of the past.

Here's a passage from Plutarch's Life of Philopoimen, these events are about 210 BC:

In the first place, however, he changed the faulty practice of the Achaeans in drawing up and arming their soldiers. For they used bucklers which were easily carried because they were so light, and yet were too narrow to protect the body; and spears which were much shorter than the Macedonian pike. For this reason they were effective in fighting at a long distance, because they were so lightly armed, but when they came to close quarters with the enemy they were at a disadvantage. 2 Moreover, a division of line and formation into cohorts was not customary with them, and since they employed a solid phalanx without either levelled line of spears or wall of interlocking shields such as the Macedonian phalanx presented, they were easily dislodged and scattered. Philopoemen showed them all this, and persuaded them to adopt long pike and heavy shield instead of spear and buckler, to protect their bodies with helmets and breastplates and greaves, and to practise stationary and steadfast fighting instead of the nimble movements of light-armed troops. 3 After he had persuaded those of military age to arm themselves in this manner, in the first place he inspired them with confidence that they had thus become invincible, and then made most excellent reforms in their luxurious and extravagant ways of living. For it was not possible to remove altogether their empty and idle emulation from a people long addicted to it. They were fond of costly apparel, the coverings of their couches were dyed purple, and they vied with one another in banquets and table array. 4 But he made a beginning by diverting their love of show from what was unnecessary to what was serviceable and honourable, and speedily persuaded and incited them all to check their daily expenditures upon bodily wants, and to find their chief adornment in military and warlike equipments. 5 And so one might have seen the workshops filled with goblets and Therycleian plate which were being broken up, with breastplates being gilded, with shields and bridles being silvered over, while in the places of exercise colts were being broken in and young men were learning the use of heavy armour, and in the hands of women there were helmets and plumes for dyeing, and horsemen's tunics or soldiers' cloaks for embroidering. 6 The sight of all this increased men's courage, called forth their energies, and made them venturesome and ready to incur dangers. 7 For extravagance in other objects of display induces luxury and implants effeminacy in those who use them, since something like a pricking and tickling of the senses breaks down serious purpose; but when it is seen in the trappings of war it strengthens and exalts the spirit, just as Homer represented Achilles, when his new armour was laid down near him, as exulting at the sight and all on fire to get to work with it.

[adishee]

That would be interesting to train these troops in Thermon (or the AI would), and then get some type of reform (fighting macedonians/epirots?). I do notice how Sparta/Corinth/Athens all seem to train different troops. Sparta has classical and spartan hoplites, Corinth can train Theroporoi, Athens outrunners (forgot name). Rhodes can build freakin' anything (all the influence coming from abroad?). That's just as far as I got in my 1.5 before I switched to Bi. What a fantastic game... I just wish every culture you're fighting wasn't maxed out technologically by 245. Kind of annoying fighting thorakitai and heavy libyan spearment with my camillan legions..or is this correct? AI obviously has hugely reduced build times.

[QwertyMIDX]

If we did add them they would be trained in Corinth, the Achaean League was in the north Peloponnese.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I just wish every culture you're fighting wasn't maxed out technologically by 245. Kind of annoying fighting thorakitai and heavy libyan spearment with my camillan legions..or is this correct?Some of the reforms and recruitment in 0.8 aren't working correctly and so you get that surge of elites.


AI obviously has hugely reduced build times.Nope. But some of the main cities have MIC lvl 4 or 5 in them and therefore allow the production of some elites.