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shifty157
01-14-2007, 17:49
Hi everyone. Im back again to inform you about how the voting for the final MA faction will work. The three factions will be introduced to you over a short period of time with a concise few paragraphs on each describing that faction's historical and gameplay credentials. Once the third and final faction has been posted, voting will begin both at the Org and TWC and will last for one week (we reserve the right to extend the vote a second week if we deem necessary). At the end of that week the polls will be closed, the votes tallied, and the majority winner announced as the final MA faction. Really very simple.

To help you get a better idea of what you ahve to vote on here's the current official faction list.
Papal States
Kingdom of Scotland
Kingdom of Ireland
Kingdom of England
Kingdom of France
Kingdom of Leon-Castile
Crown of Aragon
Holy Roman Empire
Kingdom of Bohemia
Republic of Venice
Republic of Genoa
Kingdom of Appulia-Calabria
Kingdom of Hungary
Kingdom of Poland
Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Cilician Armenia
Byzantine Empire
Kingdom of Georgia
Principality of Kiev
Novgorod
Moorish Amirate
Sultanate of Rum
Abbasid Caliphate
Fatimid Empire
Volga-Bulgarians
Khwarezmid Empire
Kipchaks
Principality of Lithuania
Golden Horde

In effort to keep the faction descriptions from turning into long winded lectures (which they quite easily would) we're going to stick with the basic minimum information you would need to know to make an informed decision. We fully encourage you to more extensively research the topic if youre curious (fascinating stuff really) and actively engage in discussing the merits and drawbacks of each faction. Im sure youll find (as we did) that it wont be an easy decision. And now to get this started on the right foot we have our first faction.


The Emirate of Sevilla
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/solo.mt/sevilla_3.jpg

In around 1020 the Caliphate of Cordoba, once an incredibly powerful empire encompassing much of the muslim land in the west and sometimes referred to as the Byzantium of the West by modern scholars, arrived at the end of its decline and finally dissolved into dozens of minor political states commonly referred to as taifa states. Among these was of course Sevilla under the rule of the Abbadid dynasty. Over the next fifty years, Sevilla would rarely witness a day of peace as it ruthlessly expanded at the expense of the smaller taifa states around it. Even the ancient and powerful city of Cordoba became just another name in the long list of states that Sevilla had conquered.

By game start (1073) Sevilla had become without question the most powerful of the muslim states with its only true rival on the peninsula being Alphonso VI and his kingdom of Leon-Castile to the north. The city of Sevilla itself is perhaps the most powerful single city on the penninsula. Such aggressive expansion is due in large part to Sevilla's Emirs, the Abbadids. Over its half century of existence, Sevilla has seen three rulers from the Abbad line with each being more ruthless than the last (Abbad II is said to have kept the skulls of his enemies whom he had personally murdered as flowerpots). Through a frighteningly effective mixture of military backstabbing and diplomatic deceit and treachery the Abbadids have managed to gobble up every other state in their path. The current Emir, Muhammad al-Mu'tamid, has only been in power for three years but he is viewed as cruel, lying, and faithless in his political dealings though in person he is a rather amiable man and a generous patron of the arts (especially literature). His overly extravagant lifestyle, however, combined with his constant warring (most notably with Sevilla's old rival Granada) is actively emptying the nation's treasury forcing even heavier taxes on an already tax-burdened people.

Form a gameplay perspective, Sevilla fills a very interesting gap in the Iberian Penninsula, being the only muslim power. It effectively changes the entire dynamic of the region from a race by the christian factions to gobble up as many rebel provinces as fast as possible to one that actually requires careful diplomacy and strategic planning as it id did in history. While powerful militarily, Sevilla's treasury is barely staying afloat and drastic measures need to be taken quickly to avert a complete collapse. Its diplomatic situation is tricky as it lies directly in the path of both christian expansion from the north and Almoravid expansion from the south. The ruling family would be incredibly interesting to role play with their various extreme traits and quirks. Ultimately the faction would be a very enjoyable challenge to play. THe only real drawback to Sevilla's inclusion is the fact that historically Sevilla as an independant nation lasted only until 1091 when it was conquered by the Almoravids (though through Muhammad al-Mu'tamid's shady diplomacy and backstabbing, Sevilla did manage to dodge the Almoravid maw for many years before finally falling as one of the last remaining taifa states). Ultimately, who can say where Sevilla's aggressive expansionism and wily cast of royal characters would have taken it had the Almoravids been stopped and of all the taifa states Sevilla is in the best position to just that.




The Kingdom of Norway
https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1003/prevnorway028uh.jpg

Norway itself would not be terribly viable without a few of our faction choices. Firstly, they keep Denmark from swarming over the north, or northern Russian kingdoms from tearing through Scandinavia. Secondly, they would possess the Western Isles in Britain, and here they would be key for fighting with the Irish and Scottish. The viking age was over, but neither the Irish or Scots had forgotten centuries of raiding and attempted conquests over their territories, and the Norwegians hadn't totally abandonned these attempts, though they'd finished, more or less, with raiding, and had switched to attempts at conquest. Only a while after the start (1073), Magnus Barelegs (himself dressing normally as a Gael, hence his moniker) he conquered the Isle of Mann began his attempted conquest of Ireland, capturing Dublin but being slain in an ambush in Ulster a year later. The Scots and Norse had yet to play out their wars and dealings to a final conclusion on the matter of various coastal territories and the surrounding islands of Scotland. The early period for the three factions is really the tail end of the viking age in the Gaelic world, with raiding turned to conquest. No one in the isles had been quite so successful in repulsing or absorbing the Norwegians, which actually led to their continued wars with them; because they had intermarried heavily with them, they assumed Gaelic succession laws were similar to their own, and made claims at both the high kingship of Ireland and Scotland, and attempted to enforce them. This comes as well with claims of the kingship of England (the Normans were descended from Norwegians and Danes) and Denmark.

The Norwegians were prolific traders, trading in countless ports all through the north of Europe, but also in the Meditterranean. Norwegians fought in the crusades, both to the Holy Land and in the 'Northern Crusades'; Norwegians served in mostly German armies against the Sword Brethern and Lithuanian pagans, and a Norwegian crusading king was known as 'Jerusalemfarer'.

At the time, they were ruled by Olaf III of Norway, son of Harald Hardråde, who participated in his father's invasion of England in 1066 in a failed attempt to claim the English throne. He originally ruled the country jointly with his brother Magnus II, who died in 1069, leaving Olaf in sole rule of Norway. He married Svend Estriden, daughter of the king of Denmark to make peace with him (as both had a claim on the other's throne), but produced no children, and he was instead succeeded by his bastard son, the Gall Gaedhil Magnus III, also called Magnus Barefoot or Magnus Barelegs, because of his habit of dressing as a Gael (wearing a long shirt and a cloak with no leggings or pants, and walking about barefooted much of the time). Olaf and Magnus, the first two rulers one would have in game, are both fairly strong. Olaf was an intelligent man, the first Norwegian king to read and write, and a religious man, who greatly improved the relations of Norway with the Pope, founding dioceses, building churches, and giving gifts to the new churches. He was also an intelligent businessman, who instituted the first guilds in Norway. His son Magnus was an intelligent military leader, and ended the period of peace his father had made, by going to war in both Sweden and Denmark, then on into Britain, retaking the Western Isles and the Isle of Mann. However, Magnus would not be so much of a diplomat; he had no legitimate heirs and Norway collapsed in a civil war after his death, he only narrowly brought to end a few wars in his lifetime. However, for what it's worth, he is a skilled military leader, so the first king Norway gets would be good for building the economy, and the second for making war.

Early Norway would still be developing out of the earlier form of aristocratic warriors toward the emerging feudal system. Norway, like other kingdoms, was, at the time, actually a few smaller kingdoms subverted to a more powerful over-king. 'Viking' type troops would still exist; they'd be light or absent of cavalry initially in Norway. However, the Western Isles provides a second facet to their armies. The inhabitants of the Earldom of the Western Isles were Gall Gaedhil; essentially Gaelic, but with copious Norse influences. This province would provide them Gaelic warriors, including some light horse, and a specific Gall Gaedhil unit or two. Combined with traditional viking soldiers, they would start with a unique mixture of units, and an interesting spread of provinces, three in Scandinavia, one in the British Isles. Outside of the Gall Gaedhil of the Hebrides, they would have no early cavalry of their own; Norwegians that did ride horses only rode them to battle and dismounted to fight, much as Saxons and other older Germanic peoples often did. They have strong infantry, but a lack of cavalry will hamper them as the necessity for horsemen builds up. In a straight out infantry fight though, they have an advantage of strong, relatively well-equipped and high morale soldiers making up the core of their army.

As such, from a gameplay perspective, they'd be a lot of fun. They'd in part help justify the presence of the Scots and Irish, as they still had some interesting dynamics at work between them. They have also a unique option of where to expand. One could focus on conquering Scandinavia (an obvious early choice), and going from there into the surrounding area, or using their British Isles province to expand into the isles and form a strong base there with the relatively rich provinces available. Their early armies would be built small, around a few units of well-equipped, capable soldiers good for fighting other infantry, giving them a good edge in some arenas in the early game, but those would lose their potency as heavy cavalry begins its more dominant period, meaning the Norwegians will then need to adapt further.



Faction #3

Justiciar
01-15-2007, 04:13
edit: My bad! Sorreh.

Renown
01-15-2007, 05:37
Note that Shifty said the first faction that can be voted for is the Emirate of Sevilla.

You'll notice when voting is allowed =)

The start date was also mentioned, it is 1073. =)


The next two factions will come in the future.

DukeofSerbia
01-15-2007, 18:57
No Serbia?! :thumbsdown: 1077 Serbia became Kingdom.

"Kingdom" of Appulia-Calabria? It was Duchy! :book:
Kingdom of Ireland! :beam:
Abbasid Caliphate :inquisitive:

The rest is ok and expected. :2thumbsup:

Antagonist
01-15-2007, 19:38
So the above list are all the factions already in, and the options for a vote on the final faction are to be announced?

Antagonist

mayhem87
01-15-2007, 21:04
Yes, Kingdom of Ireland is a "little" mistake.

Rhyfelwyr
01-15-2007, 23:36
Yes, Kingdom of Ireland is a "little" mistake.

I don't think so, just wait till Conn arrives...:furious3: ~:mad :boxing: ~:pissed: :duel: :smash:

Renown
01-15-2007, 23:38
Please note that we have stated before our list of factions is not up for debate!

With that in mind- be aware that while we aim for a historical starting point, anything that happens afterwards is unhistorical.

and with THAT in mind, playing as a duchy of apulia or calabria that controls all of italy is more likely to then become a kingdom. (Much like the Kingdom of Cicilia, which is actually a Barony)

Yet, please continue to offer your suggestions in correcting possible mistakes.

To note- The Abbassid Caliphate was 'controlled' in turn, by the Sejluk Turks. It was still the major religious power of Islam, and it's power was only cemented as null later. Thus, it is still quite a viable option

This is a time of possibilities!

@ Antagonist- yes the above factions are in, and 1 faction can be voted in, out of three.

Ignoramus
01-16-2007, 00:00
No Serbia?! :thumbsdown: 1077 Serbia became Kingdom.

Serbia may be the second or third faction we get to vote on.

Solo
01-16-2007, 00:00
I don't think so, just wait till Conn arrives...
Don't wake him ! Well, I'll try to summon him for the sake of the high king :P

Solo
01-16-2007, 00:30
He has some trouble with the forum but allowed me to quote something concerning Ireland.


Ireland from a gameplay perspective provides a relatively unique selection of troops in the region it exists. Ireland had a fairly large population, access to good trade routes, and resources to exploit, but suffered from problems with loyalty of the nobility which I hope, we can imitate, and should provide a relatively unique experience to play as. It should not be easy to become very powerful as Ireland, but it should also hardly be an impossibility.

From a historical perspective, Ireland is complicated. Ireland was neither a disunified anarchic state, nor was it usually a whole united kingdom. It was, however, recognized as a kingdom by themselves, and there were periods of unity. It can be said that it was on the eve of their completion of soldifying the kingdom the invasion of Norman mercenaries began under Diarmait mac Murchada, who had fled from Ireland when even many of his own vassals would not support him against the new high king Ruadri Ua Conchobair. In the earliest part of the period, contested kingship was common, and issues of loyalty were the main concern, but there were contests over it for a reason; they recognized that the high king was a real position, not an honorary title, having recieved recognition from the church authority (the creation of the title 'Scotorum Imperator', Emperor of the Irish), and having that title carried real authority. Kings did pay homage to the High King, though, of course, there were those who refused or flat out rebelled and tried to usurp him.

Ireland had been steadily carved up between three emerging royal houses, who intermarried heavily, until it was effective that the only high kings tended to be drawn from those houses. Hopefully we can imitate early period issues with a realistic manner of their being low loyalty nobles should they belong to a house outside of the high king's, helping to represent Ireland as a single faction, but realistically simulating dynastic disputes. Ireland would be able to raise a decent number of soldiers, but, of course, if their commander abandons you, they won't do you much good. The problem of playing the Irish should be initially maintaining stability, and thus keeping your army intact to stave off potential invasions and strengthen your economy to precipitate invasions of foreign territories.

The Irish did engage in crusades and came to the aide of foreign allies (such was the case of Diarmait; he had loaned Henry II his fleet for his campaigns in Wales, and Henry owed him something in return, financing for him mercenaries to invade Ireland with, when Diarmait was forced to flee to England). The internal strife of Ireland was not so much more than that of early medieval Scotland (and less so at times), nor that of any country experiencing civil strife. Ireland was in a formative period, prepared to become a stable kingdom, cut short by the invasion. It should not be mistaken for an anarchic no-man's-land, nor idealized in a nationalist vision of what it could have been. The truth is in between. The kingdom did exist though, there were effective high kings, and they did play a role in the world in their time. Ireland was good for trade, a center of scholarship into the mid-1100s, and was steadily reforming their army into a more then-modern manner; for example, the office of taŪsech marcslķaige was created; the commander of the king's cavalry, reflecting the growing importance of mounted warfare, which was not lost on Ireland. Ireland earliest in the period is not backward, it's a relatively well off country, benefitted from centuries of scholarship in the Greek classics and other works that were tirelessly by the Irish. The Irish imported such books from Byzantium, and maintained relations with them, and Irish missionaries were prevelant in Europe for a long period.

The historical perspective, while clear that Ireland was probably at the time a minor player (though had once been far more major, due to their control of much of western Europe's only real schools outside of Italy, before such things proliferated more widely in a steadily Christianized Europe), it was not destined to be. Ireland was not stagnant, it was growing, it is an island 2/3rds the size of Britain, as a united kingdom, it would control a population at times larger than contemporary England at times, and have access to mines, trade routes, and manpower that could make them a genuine contender. Minor as it is though, it would not make it without firm gameplay reasons as well; many other minor factions have perfectly fine historical basis, but would bring little unique or be impossible to play properly. Ireland has unique soldiers, would be a challenge, but not impossible to play, and would offer a more unique experience in a region otherwise mostly populated by more standardized feudal armies (Scotland and a handful of others discluded; Scotland would, for quite a time, be fairly similar to Ireland, with problems of loyalty and selection of Gaelic soldiers for their armies, though augmented by others more readily).

On a final note, if it seems hard to consider Ireland conquering a huge swath of Europe, it was no more likely Scotland or an Italian city-state or other small-but-present factions would. That isn't a reason to disclude them necessarily.

Antagonist
01-16-2007, 00:49
@ Antagonist- yes the above factions are in, and 1 faction can be voted in, out of three.

I see, I look forward to it.


Mini-essay thingy about Ireland
Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows" :book:

Good luck :2thumbsup:

Antagonist

NagatsukaShumi
01-16-2007, 02:38
I see, I look forward to it.


Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows" :book:

Good luck :2thumbsup:

Antagonist

That is indeed an intention of ours, to educate people on the lesser knowns of history as they too were important, Ireland is also a MAJOR part of English history and certainly an interesting faction as Conn explains.

shifty157
01-16-2007, 03:11
Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows" :book:

Good luck :2thumbsup:

Antagonist

I cant thank you enough for this comment Antagonist. Although it is rather ironic considering your name.

Antagonist
01-16-2007, 13:29
I cant thank you enough for this comment Antagonist. Although it is rather ironic considering your name.

Yes, I get that a lot. Sometimes I wonder whether I should acting like a complete psychopath on some other forum, to justify the handle. :inquisitive:

Good luck again, and I look forward to hearing about the other possible factions. :book:

Antagonist

DukeofSerbia
01-16-2007, 19:01
Kingdom of Ireland – I commented this but impression is pretty negative. I mean Kingdom of Ireland with fictive high kings?!
Moorish Amirate – Why not Emirate of Morocco? Almoravids and Almohads where from Morocco.
Sultanate of Rum – Didn’t Süleyman I ibn Qutalmïsh establish Seljuk Sultanate of Rum in 1078 when he broke from Great Sultanate of Malik Shâh and de facto became independent in 1092 when Malik Shâh died?
Principality of Kiev – Title of ruler of Kiev was Grand Price.
Abbasid Caliphate – they were under Great Seljuk 1055-1156. Governor in Iraq in 1073 was Saad ad-Duwla Gauhar Ayin.

Kingdom of Cilician Armenia – Nice.
Khwarezmid Empire – emerging I assume.

No Serbia?! Some facts from XI century as majority identify Serbia with Nemanjic dynasty which is wrong:

1016 Ivan Vladislav, Bulgarian tsar, killed Prince of Zeta St. Jovan Vladimir in unknown coditions and soon Roman Emperor Basil II Bulgaroctonus and his army overrun Serbian lands as he already defeated former Bulgarian tsar Samuel and annexed Bulgaria. After Basil’s death in 1025 Serbs started to rebel. The first major rebellion happened in 1035 led by Prince Stefan Vojislav. Rebellion was put down and he was captured and sent to Constantinople, but he somehow escaped from prison. New rebellion happened in 1037 in Hum and was quickly spread to Adriatic coast and Zeta. 1038 Serbian rebels annihilated Imperial army under Duke Georg Provat with Roman vassals (župan of Raška/Serbia and ban of Bosnia) in hill-sides of Hum mountains. Seven Roman generals (starategos) were captured and only one third of Imperial army survived.

Major battle and decisive victory for Serbs happened in 1042. Prince Stefan Vojislav with his five sons waited new Imperial army led by Duke Michael (prefect of Dyrrachion) near Rumija mountain. Stefan Vojislav set up an ambush and Imperial army was encircled and annihilated in surprise night attack in their camp mostly by Serbian archers with support of slingers. Duke Michael escaped slaughter of his army but soon died in way to Dyrrachion.

Vojislav second son Mihailo will became first Serbian king recognized by Pope 1077 as King of Zeta (Dioclea) and Hum. Pope Gregory VII sent crown. His state was in Zeta (coast and parts of inland in modern Montenegro), Hum (modern Herzegovina) and modern Northern Albania. Capital was in Scodra. Romans couldn’t anything and after Mihailo’s wife died his new wife was a niece of Roman Emperor. In 1072 in Macedonia Bulgarian nobility rebelled and eldest son of Mihailo Konstantin Bodin was proclaimed as Tsar of Bulgaria under name Peter. Rebellion was put down due bad logistics of Serbian army under Konstantin Bodin and Bulgarian nobles (they splited in two directions after coronation). Konstantin Bodin was captured and imprisoned but his father paid to Venetian merchants who released him from prison bribing Roman guards.

1081 Normans under Robert Guiscard besieged Dyrrachion and in battle was Konstantin Bodin and his army as Roman ally. But he did nothing. He just watched battle and retreated (basically he betrayed Romans). After battle he made alliance with Normans and cemented it as his wife become Jaquinta, daughter of a Norman lord in Bari. King Konstantin Bodin aggressively expanded his dominion. He conquered Serbia, Dalmatia and Bosnia and technically vast majority of Serbs lived in one state. Bishopry of Bar became Archbishopry. Later he made peace with Romans but his vassal in Serbia Grand Župan Vukan started new agrresive politics against Roman Empire continuosly raiding them. After his death (c. 1101-2) state was divided by his sons who were in less or higher level in constant civil wars. This situation used Roman Empire to attack and conquer parts of Serbian lands. By this time, Serbia (Raška) became dominant as Zeta weakened in civil wars. Several grand župans were de facto vassals of Rhomania but they regularly rebelled and raided Roman lands, mostly with Hungarian help.

Now you want primary sources about it. Good. :book:

It is worth mentioning the Crusaders' journey under Raymond of Toulouse in the winter of 1096/1097. They travelled for almost 40 days through "Slavonia" (Sclavonia), from the western border to Scutari where they were met by King Bodin.
About that you can read in Raimundi de Aguilers canonici Podiensis Historia Francorum qui ceperunt Iherusalem, Recueil des historiens des croisades (Paris, 1866), p. 237.

About Mihailo, Bodin and Vukan you can read in Anna Comnena Alexiad. This is link to online text of Alexiad: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad.html Just hit Ctrl+F and type words Michaelas (Mihailo), Bodinus (Bodin), Bolcanus (Vukan), Dalmatians (Serbs) and Dalmatia (Zeta).

And about Serbs in XI wrote also:
John Scylitzes (the 11th century) Ioannis Scylitzae synopsis historiarum (Berolini, 1973), p.353
John Cinnamus (the 12th century) Ioannis Cinnami epitome rerum ab Ioanne et Alexio Comnenis gestarum, rec. A. Meineke, (Bonnae, 1836), pp. 102-113, 203-204, 212-213, 288
Nicetas Choniaces (the 12th century) [i]Nicetae ChoniataeHistoria[i], rec.J.A.V. Dieten (Berolini, 1975), pp. 90, 92, 136.

All of them mention Serbia in their works many times.


But, YOUR mod, your decisions.

Solo
01-16-2007, 19:34
High kings of Ireland aren't fictive. As I already said somewhere, Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain was probably more powerfull than the king of France in 1073 (who couldnt even leave Paris without being endangered).
About the moorish Amirate and other faction name, just read our FAQ. (but what's your point about the Seljuks and Kiev, you mean you wouldnt include them ?)
If we cant include the abbasid caliphate then we cant include any vassal of the HRE, it's that simple. Thus you should complain about Bohemia and Genoa as much. That means any mod including Portugal, Bohemia or Burgundy isnt realistic to you ?

DukeofSerbia
01-17-2007, 12:33
Please note that we have stated before our list of factions is not up for debate!

Yea, we know it. But you should know what people think about factions. If you donít want then itís fine for me, but donít expect that people come here if they canít discuss. EB style hardly can pass in medieval time (maybe I am wrong Ė future will show) as there are many sources and generally medieval is drastically better known than ancient time like in EB and RTR time (~282-31).
Think about it.



With that in mind- be aware that while we aim for a historical starting point, anything that happens afterwards is unhistorical.

And then:



and with THAT in mind, playing as a duchy of apulia or calabria that controls all of italy is more likely to then become a kingdom. (Much like the Kingdom of Cicilia, which is actually a Barony)

But Lesser Armenia became Kingdom in 1198 and Apulia-Calabria never.



To note- The Abbassid Caliphate was 'controlled' in turn, by the Sejluk Turks. It was still the major religious power of Islam, and it's power was only cemented as null later. Thus, it is still quite a viable option

The problem is there is no Great Seljuk who controlled them! Abbasid Caliphate was from 945 until 1055 under Shi'ite Buwayids and from 1055 to 1194 under Great Seljuk.
Btw, Fatimid Empire Ė Caliphate.

Balkan is septic hole (no offense).



Serbia may be the second or third faction we get to vote on.

Serbia doesnít deserve it. And it is just maybe!



High kings of Ireland aren't fictive. As I already said somewhere, Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain was probably more powerfull than the king of France in 1073 (who couldnt even leave Paris without being endangered).

Because King of France from Capet dynasty in that time were probably the weakest sovereigns in Europe it wasnít so hard to compare them.



About the moorish Amirate and other faction name, just read our FAQ.

I read it long time ago and I know it. Why create fictive name when there is name?



(but what's your point about the Seljuks and Kiev, you mean you wouldnt include them ?)

The point is there is no Sultanate of Rum in 1073. Only Great Seljuk! Pricipality of Kiev to remane into Grand Principality of Kiev as was (I hope that I donít need to explain why).



If we cant include the abbasid caliphate then we cant include any vassal of the HRE, it's that simple.

You miss understud me. There is no Great Seljuk who was overlord of Abbasid Caliphate. Only Sultanate of Rum which didnít exist in 1073.



Thus you should complain about Bohemia and Genoa as much.

I didnít talk about them. And when you mention them there is HRE as sovereign.



That means any mod including Portugal, Bohemia or Burgundy isnt realistic to you ?

What mod in what timeframe?

Solo
01-17-2007, 13:12
This could be endless but since you come here to make a point when you didnt want people to make that in your own faction thread, I'll just quote you.

I was clear - list is final!

phoenix[illusion]
01-17-2007, 15:25
No Serbia:furious3: You mus be kidding.

Solo
01-17-2007, 16:14
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1

What a coincidence

IrishArmenian
01-17-2007, 16:16
What if we're not?
phoenix[illusion] have you seen my stickied post? What does it say? The list is final. Now, if you bring research and evidence to debate it, that is better.

Orda Khan
01-17-2007, 17:19
Nice faction list. Good luck with the Mod

.......Orda

robbo188
01-21-2007, 22:41
Good going on including Ireland! :beam:

shifty157
01-22-2007, 21:44
Sorry for the delay. First post has been updated with faction #2.

mayhem87
01-22-2007, 23:12
Looks good, Im lookin forward to next one :2thumbsup:
and keep up a good hard work on the mod :whip: ;-D

Icefrisco
01-23-2007, 01:57
not norway again! i liked this mod so much because it chose factions that made sense! i hope its not in. you know when a faction is bad when the stated reason for it is to "balance gameplay" even in an area with multiple factions.

IrishArmenian
01-23-2007, 07:29
Arfisco, believe it or not, I'm pulling for Norway. The British Isles are not the heavily contested lands they should be.

Ignoramus
01-23-2007, 10:04
I'm leaning towards Norway at the moment, however, Seville does look like an interesting faction to play as. Anyway, I will wait until the third faction has been revealed before voting.

Zenith Darksea
01-23-2007, 10:37
Norway does look very good indeed, and I think a better choice than Sevilla. However, if the third option turns out to be Serbia, then I think I might have to go with that.

Ideally I'd ditch Ireland and Volga-Bulgaria, and then have Sevilla, Norway and Serbia, but that apparently isn't up for discussion, which is a shame, because Ireland in particular seems to be quite a waste of a faction slot (especially when compared to Serbia and Norway, both of which actually did something, and both of which had fairly cohesive government).

NagatsukaShumi
01-23-2007, 12:55
Norway does look very good indeed, and I think a better choice than Sevilla. However, if the third option turns out to be Serbia, then I think I might have to go with that.

Ideally I'd ditch Ireland and Volga-Bulgaria, and then have Sevilla, Norway and Serbia, but that apparently isn't up for discussion, which is a shame, because Ireland in particular seems to be quite a waste of a faction slot (especially when compared to Serbia and Norway, both of which actually did something, and both of which had fairly cohesive government).

In fairness Zenith, we expect some people to be iffy with some of the choices, however we are hopeful that when the time comes and a release is made, that we will create a modification that shows we were right to include them, afterall alot of our motives for adding particular factions are hidden in our private forums and we can understand confusion when seeing them added without the reasons behind it.

Icefrisco
01-23-2007, 18:03
Ideally I'd ditch Ireland and Volga-Bulgaria, and then have Sevilla, Norway and Serbia, but that apparently isn't up for discussion, which is a shame, because Ireland in particular seems to be quite a waste of a faction slot (especially when compared to Serbia and Norway, both of which actually did something, and both of which had fairly cohesive government).


yes ditch volga-bulgaria and maybe ireland but norway, noooooooooooooooooooooo! im not a huge fan of serbia but its better then seville and especially norway! a pleasant surprise would be burgundy,portugal, or bulgaria(though it didnt exist).

IrishArmenian
01-24-2007, 02:44
We want to do something different. We're tired of the negelect of certain factions. Norway and Ireland help to make England not become a power house, and have incredibly unique units themselves.
EDIT: Zenith, while you may think that Ireland is a waste of a faction, they were persistently a thorn in the side of England, and a large amount of troops always had to be sent to put them down again. While the Normans initially conquered most of it, in a mere generation they "became" Irish and brought new techniques to Ireland. Now, Shoot Conn a PM if you want the univeristy-thesis-esque epic post on why they are included.

Incongruous
01-24-2007, 06:24
Here's fingers crossed for Anjou:sweatdrop:

A living god
01-24-2007, 11:40
I would vote for The Emirate of Sevilla over Norway due its postion on the map, Norway occupies a small corner of Map, and only really affects Denmark and less extent scotland

Sevilla occupies a very stragticly imporant postion and will have a large impact on the moors, spain and Aragon.

Wouldn't the best solution is have all three factions, whatever the thrid one is, and depending on which factions you play which factions is in the game, something similar to whats happening with rtr 7.0?

Justiciar
01-24-2007, 16:30
wtd there no bartix facshun!??!?! u shud ad them cos theys were supur empire one time!!!!

:furious3:

Icefrisco
01-24-2007, 17:19
I would vote for The Emirate of Sevilla over Norway due its postion on the map, Norway occupies a small corner of Map, and only really affects Denmark and less extent scotland


i completely agree. seville would be fun because it would be whipped by the spainish in a second. they norwegians would be destroyed by the danes who have a modern army.

Innocentius
01-24-2007, 19:54
I would vote for The Emirate of Sevilla over Norway due its postion on the map, Norway occupies a small corner of Map, and only really affects Denmark and less extent scotland

Sevilla occupies a very stragticly imporant postion and will have a large impact on the moors, spain and Aragon.

Wouldn't the best solution is have all three factions, whatever the thrid one is, and depending on which factions you play which factions is in the game, something similar to whats happening with rtr 7.0?

Agreed. Norway didn't really have the same impact on medieval history as Seville had. If there's any Northern faction to be added it's Sweden, although it didn't exist at all in in 1073:clown: Anyway, can't say that I disagree on Norway as an alternative and I won't go into the usual "Add faction X becasue I like them". Looking forward to Faction #3.

DukeofSerbia
01-24-2007, 20:07
Agreed. Norway didn't really have the same impact on medieval history as Seville had. If there's any Northern faction to be added it's Sweden, although it didn't exist at all in in 1073:clown: Anyway, can't say that I disagree on Norway as an alternative and I won't go into the usual "Add faction X becasue I like them". Looking forward to Faction #3.

Well, Seville did nothing except they were annexed by Almoravids soon... :book:

IrishArmenian
01-25-2007, 02:20
wtd there no bartix facshun!??!?! u shud ad them cos theys were supur empire one time!!!!

:furious3:
That made me laugh. Really. Great to see people bringing that back up.:laugh4:

A living god
01-25-2007, 02:31
Sevilla would stop Spain, Aragon and the Moors from conquering what therwise be rebel provineces in the south of spain too quickly. If MA is anything like EB it will take along time to defeat even a small faction like Sevilla.

Cousin Zoidfarb
01-25-2007, 03:58
I think factions should be included if they actually survived for a good part of the timeframe of the mod, if Seville only lasted 50 years as was described I don't think they deserve to be put in, it shows that they were quite weak really.

A living god
01-25-2007, 04:27
I think factions should be included if they actually survived for a good part of the timeframe of the mod, if Seville only lasted 50 years as was described I don't think they deserve to be put in, it shows that they were quite weak really.
A factions should be included if it was important at the start date.
How does lasting for only 50 years make it weak? Given that is was surronded enemies, the chirstian kingdom in the north, the moors in the south to have lasted 50 years it must have been farily strong

shifty157
01-25-2007, 05:30
it shows that they were quite weak really.

Well its all really relative. Just because they were in a bad position directly in front of a budding expansionist empire doesnt mean that they were weak. I mean there isnt alot you can do when youre up against an empire thats many times your size. Its the food chain really. Even though Sevilla was a big fish, it had the misfortune of being directly in the way of one of the biggest fish. Theres no doubt that at game start the Almoravids are one of the strongest factions on the map (easily in the top 5, probably in the top 3) and it would still be a few decades before they hit their peak (Although the Almoravids for all their power only lasted about 1 century (nominally 4 generations of kings but really only 3)). In all frankness, Sevilla easily had more stability in its empire and rulers than the Almoravids ever had and had it not been for its unfortunate location at the crossroads of great expansionist empires it would have lasted a considerable length of time. In my opinion, had the Almoravids stayed in north africa, its easy to see an iberian penninsula divided between the four great powers of Castile, Aragon, Portugal, and Sevilla.

But really thats all just conjecture. The fact is Sevilla only lasted about 50 years. Its your decision to decide whether or not in this particular case the potential is more important than the fact of history. I mean if you look at France at this one instant in history than it really probably wouldnt deserve a faction slot but history says that it turned into a great and powerful nation so its in. On the other hand if you look at the Abbasids, a once incredibly powerful empire but at this instant in history possessing only a small fraction of its former power. History says the Abbasids would simply continue to decline into nonexistence but at this moment in history it still had enough of its former power that its very much within reason to believe it could undergo a major resurrgence and dominate the region once more under the right circumstances.

I personally tend to see history as more of a string of coincidences than the result of any sort of premeditated strategy on the parts of various people but thats just my opinion.

Im not trying to support Sevilla or discredit it. Im just trying to present how tricky gauging a faction's worth can be. Norway is in the exact same boat. History says that Norway never really amounted to anything. ALthough you can say that Norway's fate is more sealed than Sevilla's although even that is arguable. Sevilla clearly had the more fertile socio-economic foundation to really grow and expand into a great powerful empire similar to the Caliphate of Cordoba before it btu as i said before its position placed it in the path of forces larger than itself. Its like a tree sapling that has the potential to turn into a large and solid tree that could stand for centuries but a particularly harsh winter in the first year of its life puts a quick end to it. Norway on the other hand doesnt really have the population or resources at its ready disposal for expansion (unlike Sevilla) but we see that had one or two key battles fallen in Norway's favor (and we all know how large of a role freak chance plays in war) Norway could have established a sprawling empire encompassing Scandanavia and the Birtish Isles and possibly more. You could say that a flip of a coin relegated Norway to a minor and generally forgotten role in history.

At this stage of the game though, none of the factions we're presenting really have much any sound and undeniable historical basis for being included and really what we're looking at is which one exhibited the greatest potential as well as which one contributes more to interesting and dynamic gameplay. Although even when considering this its a very tough decision. I already discussed each candidate's theoretical potential had the die fallen more in their favor so lets take a look at gameplay.

Both factions fill an area of the map that is notoriously full of rebel provinces and therefore they add credibility to those areas and make them more than just quick grabs to dramaticly and unrealisticly increase the power of those factions lucky enough to be neighboring them. Or even worse the regions could turn into complete dead zones where no faction has any real reason incentive to even conquer (obviously this second fear applies more to Norway than Sevilla because as is shown historicaly the southern iberian will no doubt be a heated battleground). Considering this you may say that at least the area of sevilla will be conquered relatively quickly and the region become useful whereas if there was no faction in scandanavia the region could potentially remain neglected and dead the entire game. Having Norway would give vitality to an otherwise dead region while sevilla couldnt even claim to the same (at least not to such a great extent). On the other hand placing a faction like Norway in the middle of a dead region at the edge of the map could be considered a complete waste from a gameplay perspective because Norway would really only interact with a very few other factions, most notably denmark. Its single province in the British Isles almost isnt even worth recognition being so far removed from Norway's power base in scandanavia and being only a single province that once removed by any one of the powers in the area would effectively end and Norwegian presence in the area (as happened historicaly). Sevilla at least has several very unique and differing factions around it that it can interact with freely creating interesting dynamics that could change drasticly from one game to the next. It shared its religion with the Almoravids but it shared a closer culture and world view with the christians allowing it to go either way with its allegiances depending on the circumstances. You can see that this is what actually happened historicaly as Sevilla allied itself with one or the other depending on which power better served its interests at any given moment.

I mean thats just a quick overview of the give and take that makes this decision so difficult and i didnt even touch all the new dynamics and considerations that the third faction brings into the debate. This post grew longer than i had expected it to be but i hope it gives you a glimpse of how much thought and energy went into these faction decisions behind the scenes in our developer forums and we still couldnt even reach a decision on the final faction. If you think this is an easy decision then quite frankly you arent making a very good decision.

Ignoramus
01-25-2007, 11:01
I can now understand how hard it is to pick the last faction.

I was quite impressed by Seville as one of the candidates, and felt sure that they would be a good choice. But then Norway came up and I felt the same. Honestly, I find it very difficult to choose.

However, I think I will vote for Norway for a couple of reasons:

1.) I would like northern Europe(Britain, France, Germany, Scandinavia) to be as detailed as possible. No offence to the Eastern European kingdoms, but I feel that having the same old roster of England, Scotland, France, Holy Roman Empire, and Denmark just doesn't do justice to the north of Europe. I would prefer if Aquintaine or Tolouse were represented, but I can well understand that they weren't that important militarily, and with only 31 faction slots they don't deserve a separate faction.

2.) Without Norway, it makes things too easy for the Holy Roman Empire. Having only Denmark in Scandinavia allows the Holy Roman Empire to quickly strike at Jutland and thus effectively defeat the Danes, whereas Norway would help stabilise Scandinvia and prevent any blitzkriegs.

Icefrisco
01-25-2007, 17:09
Without Norway, it makes things too easy for the Holy Roman Empire. Having only Denmark in Scandinavia allows the Holy Roman Empire to quickly strike at Jutland and thus effectively defeat the Danes, whereas Norway would help stabilise Scandinvia and prevent any blitzkriegs.

what about burgundy? though it wasnt powerful at the beggining of the game unlike norway it would grow to become a power that would stop imperial expansion into france and vice versa. it would help to fill the emptiness of western europe.

Cousin Zoidfarb
01-25-2007, 18:39
I think the christian factions in the north and the moors in the south of seville were strong.

Since this is a thread where the non-modders can voice their opinion, here's mine.

If we are going to honour a state/nation/faction with a faction slot I think it should have some kind of obvious importance, if historically it has only lasted a few generations, then I think the slot should be given to a nation that has at least passed the test of time. And there are many who did and are not included or even considered for the vote.

Of course putting another iberian faction in will make gameplay more interesting..in the iberian peninsula, but the same can be said of putting in any other faction anywhere. This game is based on history and I'm sure most of the choices were influenced by how important a power was, to be included as a faction.

A 50-year existence isn't an accomplishment, better represent Seville as a very hard to conquer rebel province (with a barber's guild:beam: ).

The 'what if' argument could also apply to any other state as well that was destroyed by someone else.

This being said, this is not my mod so the decision is not mine, but this is the voting thread so I think I can put in my two cents.

I'm quite curious as to the identity of the last faction.

NagatsukaShumi
01-26-2007, 02:13
I think the christian factions in the north and the moors in the south of seville were strong.

Since this is a thread where the non-modders can voice their opinion, here's mine.

If we are going to honour a state/nation/faction with a faction slot I think it should have some kind of obvious importance, if historically it has only lasted a few generations, then I think the slot should be given to a nation that has at least passed the test of time. And there are many who did and are not included or even considered for the vote.

Of course putting another iberian faction in will make gameplay more interesting..in the iberian peninsula, but the same can be said of putting in any other faction anywhere. This game is based on history and I'm sure most of the choices were influenced by how important a power was, to be included as a faction.

A 50-year existence isn't an accomplishment, better represent Seville as a very hard to conquer rebel province (with a barber's guild:beam: ).

The 'what if' argument could also apply to any other state as well that was destroyed by someone else.

This being said, this is not my mod so the decision is not mine, but this is the voting thread so I think I can put in my two cents.

I'm quite curious as to the identity of the last faction.

MA was founded by myself on the premise that while we would create an experience that would teach people about history, it would also be good from a gamers perspective. Ireland was included, for example, to help recreate Willaim's struggles with the other British peoples and hold England up for a while, as France is rather weak at the time and I do believe were excommunicated at that point, so are in a very poor position that a unoccupied Englsih faction could easily exploit.

Factions are chosen not only on historical interest, but how they contribute to the gameplay experience, you could add all 31 of the most important, but it then be dull to play as its too easy in area's to dominate, and too hard in others.

Your opinions are all valid, as long as they are put in the same format as above, spam and abuse won't be listened to and won't survive very long. Factions are ALWAYS a big point of discussion at this stage, after all if your discussing it, it's only because you care enough to do so right?

Rest assured, even if some choices displease you, the team is imo talented enough to eliviate these fears once you get the final product.

IrishArmenian
01-26-2007, 02:56
Yes, to put it simply, MA is not here to reenact history as it happened. We are working on literally alternative history, I call it "what if"-history. Based on facts but allowing freedom to the player. True historical fiction.

DukeofSerbia
01-26-2007, 20:06
In my opinion, had the Almoravids stayed in north africa, its easy to see an iberian penninsula divided between the four great powers of Castile, Aragon, Portugal, and Sevilla.

You theory fall in water because Ishbiliya was one of the three strongest Taifas. Anothers were Batalyaws and Sarakusta. All three were Andalusian Taifas plus Majorca which was Slavic. Those were major Taifas.

Bulgar
01-27-2007, 15:35
and what about Bulgaria??!?!

Bulgar
01-27-2007, 15:57
Hello
Bulgaria deserve to be there more than the half of the factions that will be included.I think you are inteligen and know the facts anyway here I will post some information that will convince you about bulgars/

The Bulgars arrived in the Balkans in the 7th century....

this says many.

also the first europian country that preserve its name you know is Bulgaria

More will tell you the maps from the period of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1183_1241.gif

1183 - 1241

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1261.gif

1261

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1335.gif

1335

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1335_1451.gif

14th C just before Ottomans

From 1183 to 1396 a main power in the balcans

it is good that you decied to include Volga Bulgars
Thanks

Cousin Zoidfarb
01-27-2007, 16:36
I'm surprised that I attracted such a response from the devs.
Your product will definitely be more interesting than the vanilla game.

This is my only way to contribute to your mod's development and of course sway the voters.

I think the root of the game is historical importance, secondly gameplay.

For example from a gameplay perspective Denmark and say a faction like Pomerania (which was independant for much of the period ) would have a similar impact on gameplay to the neighbour factions, but Pomerania would never be considered over Denmark because of the latter's greater historical achievement, the same could be said of the Estonians instead of Novgorod, even Wales instead of England.

This said please hurry up with the last faction so we can vote.

Icefrisco
01-28-2007, 03:46
This said please hurry up with the last faction so we can vote.

we all agree on that!

NagatsukaShumi
01-28-2007, 05:03
Hello
Bulgaria deserve to be there more than the half of the factions that will be included.I think you are inteligen and know the facts anyway here I will post some information that will convince you about bulgars/

The Bulgars arrived in the Balkans in the 7th century....

this says many.

also the first europian country that preserve its name you know is Bulgaria

More will tell you the maps from the period of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom
Thanks

-Images snipped for space

Bulgar, as has been stated before, the factions have been decided upon and they will NOT be changing, it took three months to get to the point we are at now, so we are not going to change our descisions. There are loads of factions that "deserve" a spot, but we are not gifted with unlimited spots OR unlimited staff to supply this. Bulgaria may be important to you, but everybody has their favourites and that sometimes clouds judgement, there were factions I wanted to see BUT after fair arguments meant they didn't make it, just how it goes I am afraid.

Bulgar
01-28-2007, 13:54
yes yes
why dont include USA God Bless Bush,,,

answer me what has done Sevila to change world history somehow??
anyway your problem do what you want .

IrishArmenian
01-28-2007, 18:13
Sevilla carved out a niche for itself leaving large cultural impacts (flamenco, anyone?)

Taedius
01-28-2007, 19:51
A a Norwegian, it's fun to see the good work you have done on the presentation, and also that many would like Norway as the 31. faction.

At the moment, however, I'm leaning towards Seville. This is due to their position on the Iberian peninsula, which, at least in MTW, tended to be a very powerfull area. It needs to be a difficult area to conquer, and the addition of Seville seems to accomplish that. Will the Norwegian presence in the Western Isles have the same effect in Brittania? I think not, certainly not to the same extent.

But I will wait for the third option to make my mind up. Perhaps my patriotism will win, after all.

Icefrisco
01-28-2007, 23:06
Will the Norwegian presence in the Western Isles have the same effect in Brittania? I think not, certainly not to the same extent.

good point.

whens the next faction being released cause i thought i saw that it would be released by the end of the week.

Justiciar
01-29-2007, 00:27
The Norwegians did exert influence in the Isles, and made a few attempts at Ireland - as well as retaining a dynastic claim to the Kingship of England.

I'm torn between these two, I must say.

Just as a question of general interest.. wasn't Aragon in a personal union with Navarre at this time? And wasn't Catalonia independant under the Counts of Barcelona? Or was that later? :dizzy2:

IrishArmenian
01-29-2007, 00:39
Aragon was in union with Navarre and Catalaunia was independent under Berunger at this time.

NagatsukaShumi
01-29-2007, 12:53
yes yes
why dont include USA God Bless Bush,,,

answer me what has done Sevila to change world history somehow??
anyway your problem do what you want .

Bulgar, I could flip that round and ask you, what have Bulgaria done to change world history in the medieval period?

Don't make sarcy comments Bulgar, they will not get you anywhere. The faction list will not be changing, we have explained this, posts of this nature wouldn't help your cause even if we were open to changing some.

As I explained, we all have our favourites, but the fact is just because we like the idea of a faction being there, doesn't mean it will make it.

Icefrisco
01-29-2007, 22:35
answer me what has done Sevila to change world history somehow??
anyway your problem do what you want .

heres a list:

its the port from which spains gold wen tfrom the americas to spain

place where chocolate first reached europe

Abu Marwan Abd al-Malik Ibn Zuhr (known in the West as Avenzoar) - 1091-1161 C.E - "Master Physician" one of the fathers of modern medicine was born in seville

theres a lot more but i dont have time

Cataphract_Of_The_City
01-30-2007, 02:09
So...where is the third faction update? Isn't there supposed to be a weekly blog update too?

Icefrisco
01-30-2007, 03:04
So...where is the third faction update? Isn't there supposed to be a weekly blog update too?

dont bother asking they wont answer.

IrishArmenian
01-30-2007, 03:06
Personnel issues.

NagatsukaShumi
01-30-2007, 03:50
dont bother asking they wont answer.

There is no need for that, watch what you say in future arfrisco, we are generally quite punctual in replying to the community, there is no need for comments like that.

pontifexx
01-30-2007, 17:23
No Croatia? It was still an independent kingdom at the time...

Renown
01-30-2007, 17:50
Updates are coming, no worries!

IrishArmenian
01-30-2007, 17:52
To be 100% accurate, we'd need closer to 100 faction slots (counting emergent factions, baronies, duchies, etc).
We only have 30 not counting independents.

Solo
01-30-2007, 19:41
@Pontifexx aka Bulgar aka Phoenix[illusion]

Stop creating accounts just to rant us (I have a hard time believing anyone would end up here for his first post, but three times it's close to winning lottery). You're working really hard to give bad publicity it seems but would you be happy if we close the vote ? Oh, well, perhaps it's just what you're trying to do afterall.

DukeofSerbia
01-30-2007, 19:53
@Pontifexx aka Bulgar aka Phoenix[illusion]

Stop creating accounts just to rant us (I have a hard time believing anyone would end up here for his first post, but three times it's close to winning lottery). You're working really hard to give bad publicity it seems but would you be happy if we close the vote ? Oh, well, perhaps it's just what you're trying to do afterall.

OK. I sloved it with Solo. Phoenix[illusion] is from my team.

NagatsukaShumi
01-30-2007, 19:54
@Pontifexx aka Bulgar aka Phoenix[illusion]

Stop creating accounts just to rant us (I have a hard time believing anyone would end up here for his first post, but three times it's close to winning lottery). You're working really hard to give bad publicity it seems but would you be happy if we close the vote ? Oh, well, perhaps it's just what you're trying to do afterall.

I shall investigate this with Tosa, if he is indeed the same guy, I will ask for his IP to be banned, constant unwarranted abuse isn't acceptable, no need for rude posts when the same point can be made in a civil manner.

Icefrisco
01-30-2007, 20:25
There is no need for that, watch what you say in future arfrisco, we are generally quite punctual in replying to the community, there is no need for comments like that.


sorry i guess i was a little upset cause i had asked a few times without any response. ill watch myself now

NagatsukaShumi
01-30-2007, 20:51
sorry i guess i was a little upset cause i had asked a few times without any response. ill watch myself now

Its fine arfrisco, a few of our members are in the middle or coming to the end of a busy exam period, so there maye be a lull in our usual response. We will look to get the third faction out for you as soon as we can, just try to channel your frustration a little better next time, the vast majority of your posts are friendly. :2thumbsup:

aleksandar macedonian II
02-01-2007, 00:20
I am little disappointed
medieval auctoriso-medieval autentic?~:argue:

NagatsukaShumi
02-01-2007, 01:55
I am little disappointed
medieval auctoriso-medieval autentic?~:argue:

Once again I have to whip out the warnings, watch your posts in future, slandering the mod team who do this in their spare time for free is not going to be a wise move.

aleksandar macedonian II
02-01-2007, 14:53
Once again I have to whip out the warnings, watch your posts in future, slandering the mod team who do this in their spare time for free is not going to be a wise move.


sorry boys no mean to dishonor your mod
I know that is very hard to satisfact everybody:
(To be 100% accurate, we'd need closer to 100 faction slots (counting emergent factions, baronies, duchies, etc)
but some factions are historical minor and their impact on history are small
I wish you best luck:oops:

NagatsukaShumi
02-01-2007, 16:19
sorry boys no mean to dishonor your mod
I know that is very hard to satisfact everybody:
(To be 100% accurate, we'd need closer to 100 faction slots (counting emergent factions, baronies, duchies, etc)
but some factions are historical minor and their impact on history are small
I wish you best luck:oops:

Don't worry about it, we have had a few rather rash statements in this thread already and it, admittedly, has urked me a little having to keep warning people.

Renown
02-01-2007, 18:04
aleksander, we understand what you mean...

but honestly we had only a few options.

Lets look at the Northern Italian area for example.

We could potentially have.... 10-30 factions in this single spot alone.

Let me list of a variety of different powers.

Florence, Pisa, Arezzo, Milan, Verona, Pistoia, Genoa, Lucca, Siena, Pavia, Parma , Padua, Venice, Bologna, Urbino, Perugia, Ancona, Mantua, Modena, throw in the Holy See, and some of the other unmentioned "papal state" territories, that were in reality not always under direct control. Then mix in french factions, norman/sicilian factions, along with the HRE, or Austrian types...

Now this is completely possible, I suppose, if we wanted to have an extremely small map, and focus on the "North Italian" theatre, so to speak.

But, this area was not a minute unconnected seperate continent that arose in a completely unaffected situation.

No, events in England impacted the situation, events in Northern, Eastern, Western and Southern Europe also were important to northern italy due to power politics, trade, and not even mentioning the multiple aspects of cultural change that may have occured or did occur due to interactions between these areas.

Now, throw in North Africa, Rus-Asian territories, the middle east, and futher.. all of which either directly, or indirectly affected North Italy.

So... no matter WHAT we would have chosen, something would be inaccurate, or not properly represented even looking at this area.

Now, we are dealing with a much larger map then just north italy, and what do you suppose would happen if we gave 5-6 factions in North Italy? Which is completely justifiable with historical reasons.

I'll tell you what, "not what we want". Whatever the results, we would have to obviously ignore some other regions that would then "piss" off someone else.

So, instead we have a situation where we try to include the most important factions according to historical starting points, and according to gameplay. 6 factions in North Italy, and 1 in the isles would lead to a certain game, that I would not enjoy playing, personally. Now we are getting flak for having 3 (and possible 4) factions in the Isles, and 3-6 factions involved in North italy (France/HRE/Italian factions/Holy See)... because there is not enough "here" or "there" or wherever someone wants a faction.

We made choices, we feel we can back them up with a myriad of reasons, and we wont change our existing faction slots.

SO no matter how many times someone demands "Burgundy Burgundy Burgundy" or Serbia Serbia, Serbia, it wont change.

All of our certified factions have legitimate historical reason to be in the mod. Just because "YOU" do not see them as major players does not mean you are right. In aspects where people may be right due to 'historical' reasons, we may have gameplay reasons for not including "your" faction.

But to go and say that we are not living up to our name, or blandly insulting us is not very nice or friendly... I mean we are doing this with our free time... perhaps everyone would prefer to not have us working on MA?

aleksandar macedonian II
02-01-2007, 18:25
I would like to see MA mod that is for sure ,it is going to bee very interesting to see several big mods (competition is always welcome)
MTW2 is a great game but mods are keep her alive

Sarmatian
02-02-2007, 02:29
All of our certified factions have legitimate historical reason to be in the mod. Just because "YOU" do not see them as major players does not mean you are right. In aspects where people may be right due to 'historical' reasons, we may have gameplay reasons for not including "your" faction.

But to go and say that we are not living up to our name, or blandly insulting us is not very nice or friendly... I mean we are doing this with our free time... perhaps everyone would prefer to not have us working on MA?

Exactly. Your mod - your decision. Just take it easy. For majority of people here english is not the first language, so sometimes it happens that a post or two sounds a bit too harsh, judgemental or demanding... It must be frustrating doing a job for others, while they sit back and criticize your work, but you should relax a bit...

Anyway, good luck with the mod...

aleksandar macedonian II
02-02-2007, 13:22
I meant noting bad or criticize MA mod just disuse to make MA mod better and more historical accurate (we no that you cant be 100% accurate)
sorry if sounded like that!
If you want to make good mod make historical accurate ( I think people love that,I do) that will solve your problems with community and with questions like :
why is this faction or unit in mod and that isn't.....:shame:

Triglav
02-04-2007, 14:42
I have to chip into this conversation.

I completely agree about there simply not being enough slots for all the factions to be in.

But I would perhaps dare to make a suggestion in a different direction.

Ok, the player can PLAY as one of 20 or 30 playable factions. But that doesn't mean that all the others are out of the game.

If anyone played Crusader Kings, they know what a fragmented thing feudal Europe was, and in that game you can play each smallest entity as your faction and see how hard it is to get anywhere...

A map like this: Europe 1300 A.D. (http://petrarch.petersadlon.com/images/map_1300.jpg)
...nicely shows what a mess Europe was back then, and if you look at other maps from these series, you see how many changes occured in a lifetime of each ruler...

But what you have to be aware of is two main concepts:

1. Nationality as we know it today didn't exist, so a for instance German empire did not include Germans only, nor was it run by Germans only (so, I like the concept I saw in the screenshots of a HRE king also being the King of the Czechs for instance). Or England was not run by the English, their wars in France were because of their hereditary claims on france, and famous English kings, like Richard the Lionheart/Coeur de Lion spoke French all their life...(therefore names of units of factions should come from a wide pool of ethnic names of all their ethnicities, famous German generals with French or Czech or Polish names, famous Italian generals with German, French or even English names...)

2. Alegiances changed very rapidly and a part that was today a part of one kingdom, could tomorrow belong to another or go independent.

If this can somehow be adequately modelled into the game, I think it would be great. For instance, HRE had official rule over many teritorries, but often very little actual say in the matters, so even the emperor sometimes didn't get armies he demanded from parts of his empire when demanded. For instance (since I am from Slovenia and know this bit of history somewhat better), the Principality of Carinthia (Karantania) was a ethnically Slavic/Slovene principality back then, which, though a part of the Holy Roman Empire, was militarily, legislatively and financially a lot more independent in decision making, than modern-day Slovenian independent republic is as part of the EU. This was also the case with most vassal relations all over Europe. I'm sure our Serb specialists here could thell us of the level of independence Serbia had even once conquered by Ottomans, or Croats could tell of their relative independence under the formal reign of the Hungarian crown...

How to model this in game? Well, either have the 20 or 30 playable factions start out rather weak, with many independent entities (can the ingame title "Rebels" be changed into "Independents") to first have to subdue its constituent parts and join them all in their kingdoms.
We could have strong, expansionistic or otherwise dangerous independents (thus all the Burgundies, Bulgarias, Serbias, Croatias, Italian city-states, and others would still be ingame, important figures, just not playable), and once conquered, their titles would be added to the conqueror (somehow as it is already planned with titles).
My main point being that the unplayable A.I. controlled "independent" Serbia or Croatia or Bulgaria or whoever could actually expand as well, conquering targets of opportunity, or in scripted directions of expansion...

Another cool feature could be the loyalty issue having an inpact on factions vs. independents. Say a HRE general is made to be the Duke of Burgundy. Eventually for whatever reason his loyalty goes down and he rebells, Burgundy becomes independent and he and his army is immediately moved to Burgundy and he becomes the King of Burgundy, from where he may even attack neigbouring lands to expand his new realm. Vassals were prone to change allegiances or declare independence if they saw advantages in that...

Knights of Honor handled the instability of feudal Europe wonderfuly, with vassals, rebellions, rising and falling kingdoms...would be great if this could somehow be simulated in this game.

The complicated thing in this game is that you have to start with a situation on a certain year, whereas forming of kingdoms was a fluid process with their ups and downs...
But I think the easiest way to justify which faction is playable in the game would be by the criteria, did they have vassals or were they vassals themselves (and by that I mean vassal kingdoms). If they were independent kingdoms first, then became vassals they should not be playable, despite the level of independence under anothers rule. If they were independent first, stayed independent through most of the time a campaign is set to cover, or expanded so that they joined vassal kingdoms to their own domain, they should be playable.

I have no idea if any of what I wrote is practicable, but as in all things in life, noone can accuse you of being biased if you use the same judging criteria for all candidates you chose (cause let's face it, as much as I like commanding highlanders in games, if there wasn't for the movie Braveheart, Scotland wouldn't have made it into half the games you can find it in these days...so congrats for excellent promotion, courtesy of Hollywood. And it can be predicted that if Mel Gibson makes a good movie about the battle of Kosovo, you'll have Serbia in a lot more games that you have today).

Either way, cheers to everyone, thanks to developers for your effort, and forum members for your input, which I always find entertaining to read.

Icefrisco
02-04-2007, 14:59
i completely agree but a lot that your asking for cant be done(loyalty). however, ethnic units are possibel in aor. most mods include aor now.

aleksandar macedonian II
02-04-2007, 19:42
I think that would bee very hard to create
first diplomacy in MTW2 was not priority for CA,simply diplomacy is not complex enough for that kind of game,AI just gets his army and attacks
game is limited with hard code and some things cant be moded
But thet would be nice game :idea2:

Sarmatian
02-05-2007, 05:54
Nice post, Triglav. Unfortunately, M2TW isn't friendly to "evolving" kingdom. Each has to take a faction slot. Although you can create rebels with distinct units, rulers, names etc, you can't stop them from being "rebels". They are going to wait for you to conquer them, although I guess the will be slightly tougher than in vanilla.

Scotland is actually very important from gameplay point of view. It makes it more difficult for England to control the isles. In lot of other cases, England easily conquered British Isles, then steamrolled western europe from a highly defencible position. I think putting two faction beside england (both scotland and ireland) is unneccessary, but that is the team's decision.

It is very hard to portray accuretaly medieval europe in M2TW engine. We can just hope that it will be better in some mods than in vanilla...

Ivan_the_Terrible
02-05-2007, 09:45
I have to chip into this conversation.

I completely agree about there simply not being enough slots for all the factions to be in.

But I would perhaps dare to make a suggestion in a different direction.

Ok, the player can PLAY as one of 20 or 30 playable factions. But that doesn't mean that all the others are out of the game.

If anyone played Crusader Kings, they know what a fragmented thing feudal Europe was, and in that game you can play each smallest entity as your faction and see how hard it is to get anywhere...

A map like this: Europe 1300 A.D. (http://petrarch.petersadlon.com/images/map_1300.jpg)
...nicely shows what a mess Europe was back then, and if you look at other maps from these series, you see how many changes occured in a lifetime of each ruler...

But what you have to be aware of is two main concepts:

1. Nationality as we know it today didn't exist, so a for instance German empire did not include Germans only, nor was it run by Germans only (so, I like the concept I saw in the screenshots of a HRE king also being the King of the Czechs for instance). Or England was not run by the English, their wars in France were because of their hereditary claims on france, and famous English kings, like Richard the Lionheart/Coeur de Lion spoke French all their life...(therefore names of units of factions should come from a wide pool of ethnic names of all their ethnicities, famous German generals with French or Czech or Polish names, famous Italian generals with German, French or even English names...)

2. Alegiances changed very rapidly and a part that was today a part of one kingdom, could tomorrow belong to another or go independent.

If this can somehow be adequately modelled into the game, I think it would be great. For instance, HRE had official rule over many teritorries, but often very little actual say in the matters, so even the emperor sometimes didn't get armies he demanded from parts of his empire when demanded. For instance (since I am from Slovenia and know this bit of history somewhat better), the Principality of Carinthia (Karantania) was a ethnically Slavic/Slovene principality back then, which, though a part of the Holy Roman Empire, was militarily, legislatively and financially a lot more independent in decision making, than modern-day Slovenian independent republic is as part of the EU. This was also the case with most vassal relations all over Europe. I'm sure our Serb specialists here could thell us of the level of independence Serbia had even once conquered by Ottomans, or Croats could tell of their relative independence under the formal reign of the Hungarian crown...

How to model this in game? Well, either have the 20 or 30 playable factions start out rather weak, with many independent entities (can the ingame title "Rebels" be changed into "Independents") to first have to subdue its constituent parts and join them all in their kingdoms.
We could have strong, expansionistic or otherwise dangerous independents (thus all the Burgundies, Bulgarias, Serbias, Croatias, Italian city-states, and others would still be ingame, important figures, just not playable), and once conquered, their titles would be added to the conqueror (somehow as it is already planned with titles).
My main point being that the unplayable A.I. controlled "independent" Serbia or Croatia or Bulgaria or whoever could actually expand as well, conquering targets of opportunity, or in scripted directions of expansion...

Another cool feature could be the loyalty issue having an inpact on factions vs. independents. Say a HRE general is made to be the Duke of Burgundy. Eventually for whatever reason his loyalty goes down and he rebells, Burgundy becomes independent and he and his army is immediately moved to Burgundy and he becomes the King of Burgundy, from where he may even attack neigbouring lands to expand his new realm. Vassals were prone to change allegiances or declare independence if they saw advantages in that...

Knights of Honor handled the instability of feudal Europe wonderfuly, with vassals, rebellions, rising and falling kingdoms...would be great if this could somehow be simulated in this game.

The complicated thing in this game is that you have to start with a situation on a certain year, whereas forming of kingdoms was a fluid process with their ups and downs...
But I think the easiest way to justify which faction is playable in the game would be by the criteria, did they have vassals or were they vassals themselves (and by that I mean vassal kingdoms). If they were independent kingdoms first, then became vassals they should not be playable, despite the level of independence under anothers rule. If they were independent first, stayed independent through most of the time a campaign is set to cover, or expanded so that they joined vassal kingdoms to their own domain, they should be playable.

I have no idea if any of what I wrote is practicable, but as in all things in life, noone can accuse you of being biased if you use the same judging criteria for all candidates you chose (cause let's face it, as much as I like commanding highlanders in games, if there wasn't for the movie Braveheart, Scotland wouldn't have made it into half the games you can find it in these days...so congrats for excellent promotion, courtesy of Hollywood. And it can be predicted that if Mel Gibson makes a good movie about the battle of Kosovo, you'll have Serbia in a lot more games that you have today).



Your description of medieval europe is 100% accurate. The way the TW series portrays factions as 'nations' is, in my opinion, the biggest flaw in the game's design (programing short comings like diplomacy, AI, etc aside).

There is a game in development that may interest you. Unfortunately most of the sources of info are in russian, except this thread on twcenter.net:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51229&page=6

The first release is set for march, and will feature only tactical battles. Apparently they are still working on the strategic part and plan to release it in mid 07. Apparently, it will feature something close to what you describe, with around 150 factions - families essentially.

Icefrisco
02-11-2007, 23:35
final faction was supposed to be released two weeks ago where is it?

aleksandar macedonian II
02-11-2007, 23:42
final faction was supposed to be released two weeks ago where is it?


maybe is not finished,yet!:inquisitive:

IrishArmenian
02-12-2007, 07:03
Aleksandar, there is wisdom in your post.

aleksandar macedonian II
02-12-2007, 12:33
Aleksandar, there is wisdom in your post.


Lucky guess:laugh4:

mayhem87
02-19-2007, 18:08
where is that final faction? those two were released in one week after each other. If i start smtn i must finish it properly. Soon it will be death here if its going like this :skull: :F

IrishArmenian
02-19-2007, 22:10
We're currently dealing with a few difficulties. Those who were writing these faction descriptions and creating the maps are MIA...thanks for your patience.

Rhyfelwyr
02-19-2007, 23:32
Don't worry, things are heating up in the MA forums once again, and the vote will get going very soon.:2thumbsup:

CaesarAugustus
02-21-2007, 01:30
That's good news for a while I thought that MA was dead......

Ultras DVSC
02-21-2007, 14:54
I thought that MA was dead......
Nothing of the sort, we'll get into the swing of things very soon. Presentation of the third and last faction of the vote is planned to be published on Sunday as usual. :thumbsup:

Icefrisco
02-22-2007, 02:38
oh my god, i got scared this was dead. no modders wrote anything at twcenter

IrishArmenian
02-22-2007, 03:20
TW center--If it is the same as my last visit, is a vile place in my humble opinion. Too much hate. Not a community.

Kavhan Isbul
02-23-2007, 20:43
Sevilla carved out a niche for itself leaving large cultural impacts (flamenco, anyone?)

IrishArmenian, I shall remember this great argument of yours ~:rolleyes: when the next Hall of Fame voting commences. Whoever else is in the voting will surely get a vote from me, courtesy of the superpower of Seville, and its great cultural heritage. Nice work.

IrishArmenian
02-24-2007, 06:55
IrishArmenian, I shall remember this great argument of yours ~:rolleyes: when the next Hall of Fame voting commences. Whoever else is in the voting will surely get a vote from me, courtesy of the superpower of Seville, and its great cultural heritage. Nice work.
You like flamenco? Or can I not sense the sarcasm?

Kavhan Isbul
02-24-2007, 08:16
You like flamenco? Or can I not sense the sarcasm?

I love the fact that flamenco is a more important factor in determining which kingdom in the Middle Ages was more important - apparently building an Empire is nothing compared to coming up with a dance. But hey, I cannot wait for the mod to come out - I can take an important state such as Ireland (not even a real Kingdom) or Armenia and try to rewrite history by stoping the superpower Seville from overrunning Europe with its invincible flamenco dancing infantry :cheerleader: .

Stig
02-24-2007, 08:55
Personally I would love to see Sevilla and Norway. Norway because it will become my favourite factions, Sevilla because it will be #2. Can't you do both, which we download as an option patch, we choose which to install :bounce:

tbh I wouldn't include Serbia simply because all the nationalists want it in, might sound harsh but that is what I would do. I think to most people Western Europe is far more appealing, ask anyone in the streets where Serbia is and they won't know the answer. And they know where Norway and Sevilla are. (Sevilla sounds Spanish, and Norway is pretty close to Holland, but hey)

Rhyfelwyr
02-24-2007, 19:26
I love the fact that flamenco is a more important factor in determining which kingdom in the Middle Ages was more important - apparently building an Empire is nothing compared to coming up with a dance. But hey, I cannot wait for the mod to come out - I can take an important state such as Ireland (not even a real Kingdom) or Armenia and try to rewrite history by stoping the superpower Seville from overrunning Europe with its invincible flamenco dancing infantry :cheerleader: .

You obviously have only heard the popular view that Ireland was nothing but a poor backwater in that top left hand corner of the map of Europe, a completely disunited land filled with Rebels and petty kingdoms. You would probably have us split Ireland into Munster, Leinster, Connacht, and Ulster; just because you don't know any better. Ireland was a very wealthy Kingdom (and it was a Kingdom, all bar Dublin, which was led by Gaelo-Norse rulers), in fact you could compare it to the Byzantine Empire, on a smaller scale of course. The Kingdom of Ireland had a very distinct culture, comparable only to Highland Scotland. Ireland's main problem was the loyalty of its Generals. I'll need to get our Irish expert Conn over here, he'll set you straight.

As for Seville, it was the most powerful of the Taifa states. It has a culture very distinct from any other factions in MA, and will have a very interesting unit list if it becomes the final faction. Seville also played an important role in prompting the Almoravid invasion of Iberia, calling for help when invaded by Leon-Castille. Bar from filling in an otherwise large viod in the map, Seville would be a very interesting faction, and despite what you say was a very influecial state, that could have became the next Caliphate of Cordoba had it not been betrayed by the Almoravides.

IrishArmenian
02-24-2007, 20:16
Kavhan, wait until the mod is released before you whine. I am not the Iberian expert here. I was just rattling of an example. Listen to Caledonian.

Kavhan Isbul
02-24-2007, 21:37
Caledonian, I appreciate your sense of humor - Ireland comparable to Byzantium. LOL

I find it refreshing that balance is needed everywhere, except the Balkans and that the only bad nationalists are the Balkan ones - the Irish nationalists are great! But anyway, thanks to you guys PM2TW already scored at least one vote from me aganist your mod with its ironic name (apparently historical accuracy is the last thing you are really interested in) in next year's Hall of Fame voting. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way, so keep up the good work.

Rhyfelwyr
02-24-2007, 21:52
Note the words: "on a smaller scale"

And yes, Ireland was in a way comparable to Byzantium. It was a comparison originally made by our Irish expert, Conn (and he really is an expert). He compared Ireland to Byzantium and the HRE, as although Ireland was a very wealthy Kingdom, it suffered mostly from the disloyalty of its Generals, and similar internal problems. Just like Byzantium and the HRE.

Hurry up and say something here Conn!

Kavhan Isbul
02-24-2007, 22:05
Caledonian, can you please enlighten me, how exactly Ireland compares to the Byzantine Empire? Perhaps Dublin was a Constantinople of sorts, with hunders of thousands of citizens? Or maybe Ireland bravely stood on the way of Asian invaders, preventing them from overrunning Europe? And it was Ireland that played a crucial role in preserving the cultural legacy of the Ancient world?

Common, you really do not want to turn this into a historical iscussion, because it is a debate you cannot win: Serbia and Bulgaria had a far greater impact on Medieval Europe than Ireland or Seville. In fact, I personally find the whole idea of comparing Balkan Empires with insignificent short lived kingdoms offensive. And the gamepley reasons about unit rosters and balancing issues make no sense either - balance is also needed on the Balkans and Balkan rosters can be just as unique.

Rhyfelwyr
02-24-2007, 22:56
I am comparing Ireland to Byzantium (Ireland being on a smaller scale), as it was a wealthy and powerful Kingdom, and it did have a very unique and ancient culture, completely unlike any other you'll see in MA. However, just like Byzantium, Ireland suffered from internal problems, disloyal Generals and the like. That is what stopped it from expanding and becoming more powerful. Do you not see my point? I am not trying to say Ireland was as powerful as Byzantium, but it was similar as a faction in many ways.

Obviously, you like that central European area of the map, and would like to see Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria etc as factions. But its just not possible if you want to achieve overall balance in the mod. It's similar to when people argue to have 10 Italian factions, just because there were so many independant city states. Balance need to be achieved across the map. Not to mention that Serbia was barely a Kingdom at the beginning of MA's timeframe, its time to shine came much later. That's why we didn't include other factions such as Burgundy. They may have became significant eventually, but to have them as factions in 1073 when there were others more deserving of the slot would not be historically accurate. MA is about balancing historical accuracy with gameplay and a balanced campaign map.

Even still, Ireland is deserving of a faction slot. You have fallen into the trap of thinking it was nothing but a poor, unintersting backwater on the edge of civilisation. If Ireland had not suffered from its internal problems, it had the potential to field armies to match those of the Kingdom of England. As the player, you would have the opportunity to stabilise Ireland, and let it reach its full potential, which was massive. Should we not include the HRE just becuase internal problems held it back?

IrishArmenian
02-25-2007, 00:30
Ireland is only laughable to you because of the lack of translated historical documents that plauged Irish history in the past. However, I vaugely remember in the 1980's (?) many documents were found regarding medieval Ireland. The three crowns were very much alive at the time of the game.

Kavhan Isbul
02-25-2007, 00:49
It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list. The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one. This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

Rhyfelwyr
02-25-2007, 01:09
It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

BALANCE


Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list.

BALANCE - a one faction Spain, one faction Italy, and five faction Balkans, would not give a reasonable historical representation of Europe in 1073, nor be a good gaming experience


The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one.

You'll see that statement is completely incorrect when we add the third faction tomorrow.


This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

That's just mindless, hateful talk, and there's no place for it here. You have nothing constructive to say and you don't like this mod, don't spend time on its forums.

IrishArmenian
02-25-2007, 02:10
It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list. The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one. This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.
I must be Western-Centric because...wait a minute!
I'm not the man to see about any faction west of Anatolia.
Now, I am aware of Bulgaria and Serbia, but the delicate situation is that if we include one, people will complain as to why we didn' include the other. I am all for having another Orthodox faction, but we only have a 30 faction limit (seeing as me need independents).
I wish my name did not convey my bias, however, bear with me. Ireland is also a large gameplay factor, to counter England becoming a powerhouse in the first 100 turns. They also have their own distinct flavor, and very few other mods are incorporating them as a faction. The great thing about mods is that there is a plethora of them, and each one has its own eccenctricites, tweaks, taste and personality. I suggest trying many mods, and rotating between a few to prevent burnout. That, in my mind, is the most enjoyable experience.

Justiciar
02-25-2007, 02:17
Tomorrow? We live in hope. :2thumbsup:

The only decision I don't like about your faction list is Genoa. What on earth is it doing there? :dizzy2: No worries though. Every other bloody mod on earth seems to add it. :laugh4:

Kavhan Isbul
02-25-2007, 07:18
IrishArmenian, it is not your fault that there is a faction limit and that there are no different periods in M2TW and just one starting date instead. What aggravated me and prompted me to leash out at you was your argument that the main reason for not including Serbia and Bulgaria was their insignificance. Considering the cultural and especially the military achievements of the two Orthodox Balkan Tzardoms which dwarf those of Seville or Ireland, I just needed to express what I feel about you and your mod. My feelings have not changed.

Cousin Zoidfarb
02-25-2007, 09:39
BALANCE - a one faction Spain, one faction Italy, and five faction Balkans, would not give a reasonable historical representation of Europe in 1073, nor be a good gaming experience



As it stands before the vote for your final faction, iberia has 3 factions, italy has 4, scandinavia has only 1 (before the vote) and the balkans have 2

Stig
02-25-2007, 10:37
As it stands before the vote for your final faction, iberia has 3 factions, italy has 4, scandinavia has only 1 (before the vote) and the balkans have 2
And there you have it. That's a point for letting Norway in, as otherwise the Danes can have a great time expanding easely. And if they attack HRE the way will be open for anyone of them. I know little about the cultures of Medieval history, I only know something about things as tools, weapons, houses etc (as I study Archaeology), but I can tell you. If we want to find something interesting, that is interesting for the rest of the world, we prefer to dig in Ireland then in Serbia.

Ultras DVSC
02-25-2007, 11:16
Seeing this, i'm really looking forward to the welcome of the last faction... :2thumbsup:

El-Wrongo
02-28-2007, 14:13
Beeing a Norwegian I think I should just mention that Norway is a most worthy candidate for this role.

Norway was very importent in northern europe and England, especially in the 10th and 11th century. King Magnus the first (aka the good) was king of both Norway (1035) and Denmark (1042) until he died in 1047.

Magnus the first was the son of our patron saint, King Olaf Digre/Den Hellige (Olaf the stout / the holy). Who died at the battle of Sticklestad.

One of the most famous varangian guards was Harald Harada (hard ruler). He became the comander of the varangian guard, fighting in several battles and sieges in Africa and Italy untill he returned to Norway to become a co-ruler with Magnus the first (Harald was his Uncle and had claim to the throne).

The largest weakness of the norwegians was our lack of cavalry, but inside Norway that was negotiable, because of our nature. The Norwegian armies mostly consisted of farmers and their guards men (they was kind of like the swiss when on campaign), bandits (as in the Battle of Sticklestad) meaning that there was very few full time soldiers and mercenaries. The only full time soldiers was the kings guard (hird). Norway did however have a very good naval and trading tradition, and long ships sailed as far as Greenland, Jersusalem, Constantinopel and even America. Besides the achivements of the vikings, Norway have always had good seamen, as seen in the Dano-Norwegian navy, and the Norwegian Trade fleet in WW2.

Norway did take part in the crusades, among our partisipants was Sigurd Jorsalfarer (Jerusalems farer) I am not sure in wich grade we partisipated but at least we were there :beam: ). We had a good relationship with sweden, and many kings in exile have hidden in sweden.

Among the specially interesting things about Norway as a faction, is the opertunity for special units, like Birkebeinere (Birch legs), Berserkers (Organised Berzerker bands disapered around 1100 after they was outlawed, but they are in the timeframe of the mod, and the kings often had warriors at least called berserkers in their hird), bandits, Freefarmers and even other exotic types of warriors (altough freefarmers can't really be called exotic).

One of the modders mentioned earlier in this thread that this mods goal was to teach people something about history as well as beeing fun and balanced, and IMHO Norway will achive this better than Sevilla, because it gives people the chance to see a unique and somewhat diffrent faction (not as unique as the mongols, but seen among western nations...).

Anyways, this is my attempt to tell people why Norway should get the last nation slot.

alpaca
03-01-2007, 22:57
Let me add a comment;

There are a lot of factions and only few of them deserve to be there...
Kingdom of Ireland?
Lesser Armenia?
Sultanate of RuM (Anatolian Seljuks u mean, trying to make us RUMS now?)

We'have wroten the history on this land with our BLOOD, now u want to erase it with your fingers?
We have a lot of pressure on us to make us "surrender" tu EU..
But, as Churchill said "WE'll never surrender" as Turkish patriots...
"Surrender" to the EU? Yeah, whatever...:surrender:
Please try to back up your statements with sensible arguments instead of showing everyone how "open-minded" and "tolerant" you are.

Innocentius
03-01-2007, 23:37
What's with all these patriots anyway? No country is better than the other and no country has a more special history than the other either. It's a mod for a PC-game, not a history book listing every single nation in Europe, Northern Africa and the more western parts of (central) Asia.

Sarmatian
03-03-2007, 01:12
If we want to find something interesting, that is interesting for the rest of the world, we prefer to dig in Ireland then in Serbia.

I really am not the type of guy to bitch and moan because my faction didn't make it. The modders decided and I wish them best of luck. But this comment is really stupid and unneccesary. Would you mind explaining what exactly were you trying to say.

Innocentius
03-03-2007, 01:28
Yes, from all I can tell Serbia had more impact on history in general than Ireland (much thanks to Ireland's isolated geographic position). Like Sarmatian I'm not going to whine about it, but I admit that Serbia seems like a lot more interesting faction than Ireland (both historically and gameplay-wise).

Stig
03-03-2007, 01:33
Would you mind explaining what exactly were you trying to say.
Ireland is more interesting, as it's closer related to Holland here, it had almost the same kind of culture


And next to that I wouldn't go digging in Serbia nowadays, I believe there are still minefields :bounce:

Icefrisco
03-03-2007, 01:47
Ireland is more interesting, as it's closer related to Holland here, it had almost the same kind of culture

ireland and holland? isnt one.....whatever, im not even bothering with this.

IrishArmenian
03-04-2007, 00:21
No, we are not trying to make you Rums. I don't even believe that is a nationality.
They called themselves "Rum" because they were close to the Romans, the Byzantines.
Let's not turn this into a MA-bashing thread.
You haven't even played the mod.
This is why some of us were uneasy with giving the public a voice. As soon as that is done, people just start voicing their complaints, taking MA's kindness for granted and blasting MA for every little thing.
Disappointed? Maybe, but the mod hasn't been released.
This thread has turned into a nationalist pissing contest. Stop complaining.

Boyar Karhunkynsi
03-04-2007, 10:42
I like the look of this mod. The modders seem real clued up, too.

I'd also like to say to people who are complaining, saying; "But these guys aren't in there..." or "But we were a kingdom, too!" that you cannot have a perfect game. It's just not possible. Believe it or not, there is a limit to how many factions can exist, that means that some get missed out and/or fictionally assimilated into others. It happens. You can't please everyone. The developers of M2TW didn't have people screaming that at them, and so some of the game is inaccurate.

Get over it. And don't comment on my lack of posts, this is a matter of logic.

Hah. :medievalcheers:

-Max

Sarmatian
03-05-2007, 01:21
Ireland is more interesting, as it's closer related to Holland here, it had almost the same kind of culture

:inquisitive: :inquisitive: :inquisitive:



And next to that I wouldn't go digging in Serbia nowadays, I believe there are still minefields :bounce:

Yep, Serbia, Balkans. Yugoslavia, wars... If that is the extent of your knowledge, than refrain from future comments. But, being a helpful person that I am, I will tell you that you believe wrong. There are no minefields in Serbia. So. people dig freely. And it's not like they can't find anything interesting, for example http://www.robertwernick.com/articles/LepenskiVir.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir

DukeofSerbia
03-07-2007, 20:08
And next to that I wouldn't go digging in Serbia nowadays, I believe there are still minefields :bounce:

There are casett bombs which NATO used bombarding Yugoslavia 1999. And depleted uranium (to be honest, USA used depleted uranium on their allies, Albanians :beam: in Kosovo).

Sorry for off topic.

almansor
03-17-2007, 03:20
i vote for sevilla or an andalucians faction

ElectricEel
03-17-2007, 15:38
The vote has already closed (see this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=80130)).