The United Kingdom of England, France, Wales...er

[Banquo's Ghost]

This is so wonderful (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6261885.stm) as to be an early April Fool's Joke.

Apparently the Prime Minister of France petitioned the British government for his country to enter into union. When this was rebuffed, he asked to join as a member of the Commonwealth, requiring that the French Head of State would henceforth be Her Majesty the Queen.

Formerly secret documents unearthed from the National Archives have showed Britain and France considered a "union" in the 1950s.

On 10 September 1956 French Prime Minister Guy Mollet arrived in London for talks with his British counterpart, Anthony Eden.

These were troubled times for Mollet's France. Egypt's President Gamel Abdel Nasser had nationalised the Suez Canal and, as if that was not enough, he was also busy funding separatists in French Algeria, fuelling a bloody mutiny that was costing the country's colonial masters dear.

Monsieur Mollet was ready to fight back and he was determined to get Britain's help to do it.

Formerly secret documents held in Britain's National Archives in London, which have lain virtually unnoticed since being released two decades ago, reveal the extraordinary proposal Mollet was about to make.

The following is an extract from a British government cabinet paper of the day. It reads:

"When the French Prime Minister, Monsieur Mollet was recently in London he raised with the prime minister the possibility of a union between the United Kingdom and France."

Mollet was desperate to hit back at Nasser. He was also an Anglophile who admired Britain both for its help in two world wars and its blossoming welfare state.

There was another reason, too, that the French prime minister proposed this radical plan.

Tension was growing at this time along the border between Israel and Jordan. France was an ally of Israel and Britain of Jordan. If events got out of control there, French and British soldiers could soon be fighting each other.

With the Suez issue on the boil Mollet could not let such a disaster happen.

Secret document

So, when Eden turned down his request for a union between France and Britain the French prime minister came up with another proposal.

This time, while Eden was on a visit to Paris, he requested that France be allowed to join the British Commonwealth.

A secret document from 28 September 1956 records the surprisingly enthusiastic way the British premier responded to the proposal when he discussed it with his Cabinet Secretary, Sir Norman Brook.

It says: "Sir Norman Brook asked to see me this morning and told me he had come up from the country consequent on a telephone conversation from the prime minister who is in Wiltshire.

"The PM told him on the telephone that he thought in the light of his talks with the French:

"That we should give immediate consideration to France joining the Commonwealth

"That Monsieur Mollet had not thought there need be difficulty over France accepting the headship of her Majesty

"That the French would welcome a common citizenship arrangement on the Irish basis"

Seeing these words for the first time, Henri Soutou, professor of contemporary history at Paris's Sorbonne University almost fell off his chair.

Stammering repeatedly he said: "Really I am stuttering because this idea is so preposterous. The idea of joining the Commonwealth and accepting the headship of Her Majesty would not have gone down well. If this had been suggested more recently Mollet might have found himself in court."


Textbooks

Nationalist MP Jacques Myard was similarly stunned on being shown the papers, saying: "I tell you the truth, when I read that I am quite astonished. I had a good opinion of Mr Mollet before. I think I am going to revise that opinion.


"I am just amazed at reading this because since the days I was learning history as a student I have never heard of this. It is not in the textbooks."

It seems that the French prime minister decided to quietly forget about his strange proposals.

No record of them seems to exist in the French archives and it is clear that he told few other ministers of the day about them.

This might well be because after Britain decided to pull out of Suez, the battle against President Nasser was lost and all talk of union died too.

Instead, when the EEC was born the following year, France teamed up with Germany while Britain watched on. The rest, it seems, is history.

I heard the Today programme excerpt on this and the interview with Professor Soutou was a joy - he actually spluttered incoherently, which for a Sorbonne professor is quite something.


Seeing these words for the first time, Henri Soutou, professor of contemporary history at Paris's Sorbonne University almost fell off his chair.

Now that Scotland appears to be off shortly, perhaps this idea could be revived.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

My god man that would have been hugely unpopular. Imagine what would have happened if America's lapdog had fused with America's greatest enemy the French! Think of the children man!

On a more serious note that's pretty amazing that such an arrangement was even considered.

[Pannonian]

My god man that would have been hugely unpopular. Imagine what would have happened if America's lapdog had fused with America's greatest enemy the French! Think of the children man!

On a more serious note that's pretty amazing that such an arrangement was even considered.
Churchill proposed it in WW2 in an attempt to keep French hopes alive. In the event De Gaulle's idea of an independent France was sufficient to revitalise the French.

[English assassin]

The interview was pretty good wasn't it?

Its a shame they never worked up a more detailed proposal. There are a lot of practical issues to consider. For example, where would we find all the hot water bottles that the newly-british french would need, once sex was off their agenda? Exactly how many celebrity gardeners would it have taken to introduce the ex-French to their new weekend hobby? Could we get the Fomerly French to stop being nasty to dogs, and start being nasty to children? And most importantly of all, where, for the love of god, would we have found all the extra tea that would have been needed?

[Banquo's Ghost]

And most importantly of all, where, for the love of god, would we have found all the extra tea that would have been needed?

Boston harbour?

Granted, it may be a trifle damp by now, but they'd never tell the difference between that and a stewed cup of Tetley's.

[Ronin]

My god man that would have been hugely unpopular. Imagine what would have happened if America's lapdog had fused with America's greatest enemy the French! Think of the children man!


wouldn´t the universe actually implode if that happened?

scary stuff! :laugh4:

[Kralizec]

History....:inquisitive:

[macsen rufus]

When I heard this on the news today my first thought was "Will the thread be started by BG or Louis V?"

Then after all that, de Gaulle had the gall to utter his infamous "Non!" a few years later.

Perhaps we could just restore the Angevin empire, and have Normandy, Anjou and Aquitaine back (at least everyone's holiday homes shoud be covered :laugh4: )

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And most importantly of all, where, for the love of god, would we have found all the extra tea that would have been needed?

I need a cup.....

.....Someone else is using the Kettle.

Okay, it's actually not as silly as it sounds, given the recent world war, they might have pulled it off. Certainly the Commonwealth idea might have worked.

Hard sell hardly covers it though.

This reminds me of a tangent question I've been meaning to ask:

What exactly is the relaitionship between Britain and Ireland? You aren't part of the Commonwealth, right?

[Kralizec]

Ireland refused membership of the Commonwealth.

[InsaneApache]

IIRC the Irish Free State withdrew from the commonwealth in the 1930s.

So would that be escargot with mushy peas then? :laugh4:

[Banquo's Ghost]

IIRC the Irish Free State withdrew from the commonwealth in the 1930s.

18 April 1949 is generally recognised as the date of leaving the Commonwealth, as it is the date the Ireland Act/Republic of Ireland Act came into force and we became a Republic.

[English assassin]

What exactly is the relaitionship between Britain and Ireland? You aren't part of the Commonwealth, right?

Anglo irish treaty of 1921 gave the Free state dominion status, and the Act of Westminster 1932 repudiated all claims by westminster to make laws for any dominion (ie, de jure independence, you might feel de facto independence had been achieved in 1921).

I guess they resigned (the word "republic" is a clue) but i don't know when

I think bits of the 1921 treaty are still relevant, though, albeit largely overlaid by EU law. For example the 1921 treaty gave mutual rights to live, work and vote in each others countries. IIRC that's still in effect.

[InsaneApache]

Thanks for the clarification BG :bow:

[Petrus]

Mollet was a skilled politician and he had a very narrow and moving majority in parliament.

Given the fact that such a proposal would have needed a two third parliament majority or an absolute majority in a referendum vote, that it would have faced the absolute opposition of every political organization in France I do not see how it could have been done seriously.

I do not see how even De Gaulle ten years later could have done such a proposal with a very strong leadership and a clear majority in parliament.

The reasons given, a supposed risk of military opposition between France and England through Israel and Jordan or the mess in Algeria seem very short to justify such a decision.

So, if Mollet really made such a proposal, it must have been a joke or that he was drunk or that he was trying to manipulate the british pm the later possibility being the most probable in my opinion.

[KukriKhan]

Can a political entity "apply" for membership in the Commonwealth, or is having been a former UK colony a defining pre-condition?

I'm thinking Gov. Schwartzenegger might be interested in California's application, down the line - since he cannot be US Prez (his Austrian birth precluding that). He's quite chummy with your Mr. Blair, and reportedly supportive of Becks & Posh's move here. In fact, we have a sizeable Brit/Commonwealth expat community spread throughout the place.

Is there a form to fill out and be submitted?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Can a political entity "apply" for membership in the Commonwealth, or is having been a former UK colony a defining pre-condition?

I'm thinking Gov. Schwartzenegger might be interested in California's application, down the line - since he cannot be US Prez (his Austrian birth precluding that). He's quite chummy with your Mr. Blair, and reportedly supportive of Becks & Posh's move here. In fact, we have a sizeable Brit/Commonwealth expat community spread throughout the place.

I believe any country can apply, though those that have done so have been ex-colonies. (This of course, applies to Aquitaine, Anjou etc, so France qualifies :wink:)

You can even be a republic. Ireland considered re-joining as recently as the 1990's and I believe India is a republic within the Commonwealth (they have a president not Her Majesty as head of state).

Californians however, would have to learn not to squeal with delight. No-one in the Commonwealth squeals with delight. :beadyeyes2:


Is there a form to fill out and be submitted?

It appears from the papers that all one does is buy the British PM a beer. If it's a decent ale, you're in.

~:cheers:

[English assassin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Is there a form to fill out and be submitted?


It appears from the papers that all one does is buy the British PM a beer. If it's a decent ale, you're in.

You have to promise to be worse than Emgland at cricket too. California might be too good, but Ireland would probably be fairly safe.

NB make sure you get the form for joining the Commonwealth, and not the form for joining the House of Lords. It should be fairly easy to spot the difference: if it says you have to make a "loan" of £1 million to the labour party, which you will never see again, then its for the House of Lords.

[KukriKhan]

Californians however, would have to learn not to squeal with delight. No-one in the Commonwealth squeals with delight. :beadyeyes2:

No squealing. Check. (note to Arnie: have MsSpears deported to Las Vegas).




It appears from the papers that all one does is buy the British PM a beer. If it's a decent ale, you're in.

This stuff is brewed right in my hometown, and sounds appropriate:

warning: image contains an impolite word
https://jimcee.homestead.com/arroBasAle.jpg

So, please do send him 'round again. (our airport runways are longer and less tricky to navigate than Florida's, so no worries there). If you like, we'll entertain him for a few weeks, so you can resolve your "next PM" dilemma.

edit:

if it says you have to make a "loan" of £1 million to the labour party, which you will never see again, then its for the House of Lords.

Insure bribes sent correctly. Check. (we'll consult our resident expert on such matters) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_%22Duke%22_Cunningham).

[King Henry V]

The Commonwealth is not restricted to former colonies or dominions of the United Kingdom, for example, Mozambique, formerly a Portuguese colony, is a member of the Commonwealth.

[Louis VI the Fat]

http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Regions/Iles_Britanniques/Blasons/Angleterre_1399.gif



Sung to the tune of 'la Marseillaise' :

http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Musique/00025.gif

Allons enfants du Commonwealth
Le jour de l'union est arrivé!
Contre nous de la tyrannie
Le rosbif sanglant est levé!


Go, children of the Commonwealth, the day of union has arrived!
Against us, tyranny has raised its bloody roastbeef!

'Rosbif' means also limey, pommy. Ah well, it only half works, less so in tranlation.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Or should that be:

Sung to the tune of 'God save the Queen' :

http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Musique/00025.gif

God save our Guillotine, long live our noble blade, God save the 'tine!
Send her victorious, happy and glorious
Let her reign over us, decapitate the Queen!



(Note that guillotine is feminine, hence 'send her victorious', 'let her reign over us' refers to la guillotine, not to the queen )

[macsen rufus]

God save our Guillotine, long live our noble blade, God save the 'tine!
Send her victorious, happy and glorious
Let her reign over us, decapitate the Queen!


:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

You know, it could work out after all......

Ah, and Henry V beat me to it about Mozambique, but I believe it is still unique in not having been a British colony/dominion.

[King Henry V]

Well, France was a former colony as well for a time, so I'm sure we can let her in.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No squealing. Check. (note to Arnie: have MsSpears deported to Las Vegas).





This stuff is brewed right in my hometown, and sounds appropriate:

warning: image contains an impolite word
https://jimcee.homestead.com/arroBasAle.jpg

So, please do send him 'round again. (our airport runways are longer and less tricky to navigate than Florida's, so no worries there). If you like, we'll entertain him for a few weeks, so you can resolve your "next PM" dilemma.

edit:


Insure bribes sent correctly. Check. (we'll consult our resident expert on such matters) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_%22Duke%22_Cunningham).

Do you drink the stuff warm? If you don't it's not real beer. I had this arguement with a Norwegian, being a Norwegian in Britain he didn't have a leg to stand on, particually as he had already taken advantage of our lower taxes.:laugh4:

You also have to learn to say "Posh and Becks" and you have to develope a taste for real football, then be worse than us at it.

And the Us are going back in all the words, and you have to drive on the left.

[Kralizec]

God save our Guillotine, long live our noble blade, God save the 'tine!
Send her victorious, happy and glorious
Let her reign over us, decapitate the Queen!

That made me laugh - something to be proud of surely :laugh4:

[The_Doctor]

Sung to the tune of 'God save the Queen'

I believe that was written by a French queen.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Do you drink the stuff warm? If you don't it's not real beer.

I can't believe an Englishman is actually propagating that infuriating stereotype. We don't drink bitter warm, we drink it cellar temperature.

[KukriKhan]

Do you drink the stuff warm? If you don't it's not real beer. I had this arguement with a Norwegian, being a Norwegian in Britain he didn't have a leg to stand on, particually as he had already taken advantage of our lower taxes.:laugh4:

You also have to learn to say "Posh and Becks" and you have to develope a taste for real football, then be worse than us at it.

And the Us are going back in all the words, and you have to drive on the left.

Poshenbex, PAWSHenbex, have I got it?

I think we've a good start on the footy thing, with The Galaxy; bloody small chance of us belabouring (<---huh? huh?) you lot this decade.

And the posties here already drive vehicles with right-hand steering - we'll task them to re-educate the masses.

So all that's left is to swap out the words to 'My Country 'Tis of Thee back to God Save the Queen, and appoint someone Governor General (Oprah springs to mind).

I suppose, somewhere along the line, someone will need to tell the rest of the States, United that we've changed status - I wonder if they'll notice before they're told...

Can we somehow squezee the California Bear onto that Lion-and-Fleur-de-Lis flag?

(Strange,I feel like a newly-liberated ex-husband, now) :laugh4:

[ZombieFriedNuts]

I love it, it’s all too much

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Poshenbex, PAWSHenbex, have I got it?

I think we've a good start on the footy thing, with The Galaxy; bloody small chance of us belabouring (<---huh? huh?) you lot this decade.

And the posties here already drive vehicles with right-hand steering - we'll task them to re-educate the masses.

So all that's left is to swap out the words to 'My Country 'Tis of Thee back to God Save the Queen, and appoint someone Governor General (Oprah springs to mind).

I suppose, somewhere along the line, someone will need to tell the rest of the States, United that we've changed status - I wonder if they'll notice before they're told...

Can we somehow squezee the California Bear onto that Lion-and-Fleur-de-Lis flag?

(Strange,I feel like a newly-liberated ex-husband, now) :laugh4:

The Lion rampant etc. is the flag of the Queen, not the country, in fact you need royal permission to fly the lion rampant.

You can stick that bear on the new Ensign flag we'll send for you to customise, like Australia.

[KukriKhan]

The Lion rampant etc. is the flag of the Queen, not the country, in fact you need royal permission to fly the lion rampant.

You can stick that bear on the new Ensign flag we'll send for you to customise, like Australia.

I see. Sort of like how the Aussie's did for the RAAF with the 'roo:
https://jimcee.homestead.com/RAAF-.gif

I'll get to work on it, directly.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Exactly, and the Canadians as well, both use RAF roudles.

[BDC]

I'd swap France for Scotland...

Scotland want out anyway, for some reason.

[Brenus]

“France was a former colony as well for a time” Wrong interpretation I am afraid. It was England which spoke French during 2 centuries, and England which was the over-seas domain of the Duke of Normandie (in French in the text). The Duke of Normandie being a vassal of the King of France, England was part of the Kingdom of France.:whip:

Now, that would have been fun. France of the 50-60’s is a country with 35 t0 40 per cent of the electorate voted communist. It was the start of the Algerian war. Could have sent Mountbatten to resolve the problem…
In term of language, the French being more numerous, French would become again the official language… Come on, England had it before; it is not like it never happened…
The baguette will spread at NOT at this outrageous price you can find it nowadays in Croydon.
The bad side is how to sell Sharpe or commemorate 2 times the battle of Trafalgar if more than half of the population of the new-state was in the wrong part of the battle-field? Can’t speak of Agincourt without speaking of Castellion or Formigny… No, the English pride wouldn’t accept this…:laugh4:

[BDC]

Well technically only our inbred overlords spoke French during those centuries...

[Pannonian]

“France was a former colony as well for a time” Wrong interpretation I am afraid. It was England which spoke French during 2 centuries, and England which was the over-seas domain of the Duke of Normandie (in French in the text). The Duke of Normandie being a vassal of the King of France, England was part of the Kingdom of France.:whip:

The King of England was (to be) King of France more recently than any Frenchman was King of England. Henry V trumps William the Bastard, or Louis VIII for that matter.

EDIT: Please be civil. BG

[Justiciar]

The point Brenus was making, is that our Kings were of French origin for the greater part of the last 1000 years (if you count the Norman origins of the Stewarts). Not really a false statement.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually, they were Danes who spoke French, just like every other court since Charlemagne. Additionally, William made Winchester his capital and made war on France shortly after consolidating England.

Normandy was merely a launching pad. In any case Princes ruled dominions all over the place. Edward I was overlord of much of what is now Switzerland.

[scotchedpommes]

Churchill proposed it in WW2 in an attempt to keep French hopes alive. In the event De Gaulle's idea of an independent France was sufficient to revitalise the French.

Just wanted to ask, was this mentioned even once in the news? It was the first
thing that came to mind when I heard of this other proposal, and yet didn't hear
a word about it, as if it had never been put forward.

[Meneldil]

So, if Mollet really made such a proposal, it must have been a joke or that he was drunk or that he was trying to manipulate the british pm the later possibility being the most probable in my opinion.

A whole lot of people thought that an European federation was the only way to avoid another war between European countries (namely France and Germany), or between western and eastern Europe.
During the Congress of the Hague, in 1948, many well known political leaders were clearly in favor of such a federation (to name a few, Léon Blum, Paul Reynaud, P-H Spaak, etc.).

Really, it wouldn't sound that weird, if not directed to the british, who in 1956 already made it clear that they had little interest in joining any kind of european union.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Mollet was a skilled politician Gah, le projet était assez invraisemblable, mais surtout la douce naïveté de Guy Mollet est encore plus surprenante. http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/B%E9b%E9s/bebe-sucette.gif


A whole lot of people thought that an European federation was the only way to avoid another war between European countries (namely France and Germany), or between western and eastern Europe.
During the Congress of the Hague, in 1948, many well known political leaders were clearly in favor of such a federation (to name a few, Léon Blum, Paul Reynaud, P-H Spaak, etc.).

Really, it wouldn't sound that weird, if not directed to the british, who in 1956 already made it clear that they had little interest in joining any kind of european union. C'est quand même incroyable. Mais franchement ça aurait été impossible, l'opinion française tout d'abord n'aurait pas accepté si facilement.

[Brenus]

“The King of England was (to be) King of France more recently than any Frenchman was King of England”. France never had a English King. After Agincourt it was a deal in marrying the King’s daughter, could have work but I doubt it because the throne of France was denied previously to the son of Isabelle de France, daughter of Phillip August, so in direct blood line for the French dynasty, Edward the Third on the ground the throne couldn’t be given “en quenouille”, in female hands. What Edward would have been able to do is to rule on behalf of his wife (en chef, in the name of) until they’ve got a male heir. Never happened.
In other hands, just before the battle of Lincoln, 20 May 1217, the Barons offered the Crown of England to the son of Phillippe II August, future Louis VIII of France, who became King of England, I thing during one year.
So even if some want to deny that the Normans were French, this one was. So, between an English King who could have been, with some luck, King of France, and a French who became King of England, who win?

Mais je reconnais que ca aurait pu etre drole, cette idee. Desole pour la cedille et les accents, mais mon clavier est anglais... Je crois voir la tete de mon grand pere, militant communiste, a l'idee d'avoir une Reine...

And the success of Guy Mollet, where and when?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uh, Brenus, does the Black Prince ring any bells?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Je crois voir la tete de mon grand pere, militant communiste, a l'idee d'avoir une Reine...Pour moi, c'est la R&#233;publique ou la mort aussi... :knight:


Desole pour la cedille et les accents, mais mon clavier est anglais... :whip:



Voil&#224;:

Si vous travaillez avec un clavier Anglais, vous pouvez proc&#233;der de la mani&#232;re suivante: tout en appuyant sur la touche ALT, tapez un code en trois chiffres sur votre bloc num&#233;rique.

Si cela ne marche pas, assurez vous que la touche "Num Lock" de votre clavier est activ&#233;e (elle doit se trouver en haut &#224; gauche de votre bloc num&#233;rique). A propos, ASCII est une abr&#233;viation de "American Standard Code Information Interchange" et repr&#233;sente un code normatif approuv&#233; accessible &#224; tous.

Vous trouverez ci-dessous la liste des caract&#232;res accentu&#233;s communs:

&#224; - 133
&#225; - 160
&#228; - 132
&#226; - 131
&#231; - 135
&#233; - 130
&#232; - 138
&#235; - 137
&#234; - 136
&#237; - 161

&#239; - 139
&#238; - 140
&#241; - 164
&#243; - 162
&#244; - 147
&#246; - 148
&#250; - 163
&#251; - 150
&#252; - 129

[Brenus]

“Uh, Brenus, does the Black Prince ring any bells?” Yeap, great warrior, ( Edward returned to Aquitaine, where he made himself unpopular with the nobility by levying taxes to pay for his Spanish expedition. They rose in revolt against him and in 1370 Edward besieged the city of Limoges. When it fell 3,000 of its inhabitants were massacred. A year later, Edward returned to England) same period than Bertrand du Guesclin, (constable of France, born in Cotes du Nord; one of the most illustrious of French war-captains, and distinguished as one or the chief instruments in expelling the English from Normandy, Guienne and Poitou; was taken prisoner at the battle of Auray in 1364, but ransomed for 100,000 francs, and again by the Black Prince, but soon liberated; he was esteemed for his valour by foe and friend alike, and he was buried at St Denis in the tomb of the kings of France (1314-1380) but well obviously, Dunois, Clermont and Richmond apparently didn’t to you.
See battle of Formigny and Castillon.
The problem is your history books stop at Azincourt but the 100 years war in 1461.
Well in 1558 with the re-capture of Calais: After a vain effort in 1492, from Henry VIII to invade France He won a 'second battle of the spurs' (1513). He captured a few small towns and attempted to arranged with the Austrian Emperor a futile scheme to obtain the French crown. In 1558, the French captured Calais, England's last foothold in France. The English monarchs continued to call themselves 'king' or 'queen' of France until the 1802 Treaty of Amiens, after which the fleur-de-lis was removed from the royal arms of England.

[King Henry V]

Ah, but you forget the Treaty of Troyes, to whit, Henry V and his descendants were recognised as legitimate heirs to the throne of France by Charles VI, with the Dauphin being declared a bastard by his own mother (a likely situation considering the King's bouts of madness and thus inability to have marital relations with his wife around the years the Dauphin was born and his wife's debauchery which even inspired the Marquis de Sade to write one of his perveted stories, see A Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman), Isabella of Bavaria. Therefore Henry VI was also de jure Henry II of France, and was duly crowned King in 1431.

A propos the future Louis VIII, his support lasted for little longer than his early victories, and he was never crowned King.

[Brenus]

“Therefore Henry VI was also de jure Henry II of France, and was duly crowned King in 1431.” Treaty cancelled by the English defeat, I am afraid. De Facto.:laugh4:

[King Henry V]

That matters not, by law, he was King of France for 25 years.

[Petrus]

That matters not, by law, he was King of France for 25 years.
Not exactly.

A king could not dispose of his crown, he could abdicate but he could not resign in favor of a person other than his legitimate heir.

This makes of henry VI a pretendant but certainly not a legitimate owner of the crown, as the legitimate heir, charles VII, was crowned in 1429, two years before henry VI.

[Petrus]

Gah, le projet était assez invraisemblable, mais surtout la douce naïveté de Guy Mollet est encore plus surprenante. http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/B%E9b%E9s/bebe-sucette.gif

C'est quand même incroyable. Mais franchement ça aurait été impossible, l'opinion française tout d'abord n'aurait pas accepté si facilement.

Guy Mollet etait tout sauf un naïf, c'est ce qui me semble d'autant plus surprenant dans cette mystification.

Surtout que ses interlocuteurs ne pouvaient pas ignorer le ridicule de cette proposition et qu'il ne pouvait pas ignorer qu'ils en seraient conscients.

Si cette histoire n'est pas un canular, ce qui semble le plus probable, la seule explication rationnelle qui vienne est que Mollet ait dit n'importe quoi à un moment ou la negociation n'avançait plus.

Connaissant la legereté de l'individu ça semble possible.

[Vladimir]

Oh dear, looks like a French invasion. ~:eek: Let's hope they bring a rock band with them that can challenge the Beetles.

Edit: NO surrender jokes!

[IrishArmenian]

It appears from the papers that all one does is buy the British PM a beer. If it's a decent ale, you're in.~:cheers:
Explains why the Frenchies didn't get in. "...and take your damn wine with you!"

[Rameusb5]

Wouldn't this be the culinary equivilant of combining matter and antimatter?


You guys would have the most delicious disgusting food in the world!

[Papewaio]

They played in the 5 nations rugby very well... that is good enough for them to join.

BTW if you are going to speak in another language then English please be civil enough to provide an interpretation... at least we can learn something new in the process.

[Louis VI the Fat]

BTW if you are going to speak in another language then English please be civil enough to provide an interpretationNon. This is Anglo-Saxon imperialism under its usual guise of civility. It is cultural genocide disguised as civilisation.

Nowhere do the rules state the .Org is English speaking. I write in English as a courtesy to our Anglo-Saxon and English speaking patrons, but will only do so on the explicit condition that French has equal status as English on the .Org.


http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/0028a.gif


Edit: satisfying Wigferth. ~;)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Typical:laugh4: :laugh4:

And it's Anglo-Saxon.

[Papewaio]

Non. This is imperialism under the usual guise of Anglosaxon civilisation. It is cultural genocide disguised as civility.

Nowhere do the rules state the .Org is English speaking. I write in English as a courtesy to our Anglosaxon and English speaking patrons, but will only do so on the explicit condition that French has equal status as English on the .Org.


http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/0028a.gif

All languages have equal status. :2thumbsup: The language that all of us have some basic understanding of is currently English. Now if you refuse to translate and thereby teach us you are only stopping more people learning French. So it is your own fault if cultural genocide is happening because you refuse to spread your memes. Its the memic equivalent of abstaining from sex and then crying that you do not have children.

http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/0029.gif

[Louis VI the Fat]

abstaining from sex and then crying that you do not have children.That would pretty much sum up France for the past two centuries, yes. http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/0029.gif


We were discussing Guy Mollet. I called him naive, plus French public would never accept it. Petrus agreed with everything I said.
Brenus somehow felt the urge to state his granddad was a commie. Oh and he hasn't figured out his English keyboard yet.

:creep:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That would pretty much sum up France for the past two centuries, yes. http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/0029.gif


We were discussing Guy Mollet. I called him naive, plus French public would never accept it. Petrus agreed with everything I said.
Brenus somehow felt the urge to state his granddad was a commie. Oh and he hasn't figured out his English keyboard yet.

:creep:

I got the keyboard bit. It's really cool that you can break every key except the number-pad and ctrl and still be able to use it.:yes:

Your statement just reminded me of the story about the French pilot who refused to speak English to the Swedish air traffic controller.

[Brenus]

“Brenus somehow felt the urge to state his granddad was a commie”: Yeap, he was like 35% of the French at this period of time. I mentioned it because I do not believe he would have accepted the idea of a Queen. I think this kind of revelation is the same kind of France and UK planned to attack USSR in the 50. You find in archives a theoretical exercise plan from the Army and after you publish as if it was for real…
“he hasn't figured out his English keyboard yet.” Calomnies et désinformation (calumnies and disinformation). I do but I was too lazy to use it… I was just before to go to work…

By the way, every body can see the difficulty of such a state, just regarding history…:beam:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Humour, Brenus, humour. :beam:

If I remember correctly, your grandfather was in the resistance. I wouldn't condemn people for being a coco, eh, sorry 'bout that, communist in the forties or fifties, nor do I fail to overlook the great contribution of militant communism during the war.


(Entre parenth&#232;ses: 'calomnie' est 'slander' en anglais)

[Louis VI the Fat]

By the way, everybody can see the difficulty of such a state, just regarding history…Ah, but think of all the positive aspects of it! I know it's all entirely hypothetical and such, but just imagen:

We could finally see our best strikers pitted against the best defenses the English can muster. Hmm, I wonder how Cantona or Henry would fare when they're up against some tough English lads?

Also, we would finally be allowed to compete in the five (/six) nations cup, playing against the home nations, where we could inflict defeat upon humiliating defeat on them.

And, but this would require an intimate union - much more intimate than the one proposed by Mollet - but perhaps we could also find a solution for the problems of our bankrupt countryside? Like, say, let the British taxpayer pay through the nose for the upkeep of it without so much as a beginning of a say in it?


'Nah, forget about it. I must be daydreaming....'

[Brenus]

Entre parenthèses: 'calomnie' est 'slander' en anglais. Oups !!!!
I am day-off sick with a good grippe (flue), fever and others nose and throat problems. I will be more careful next time. I am a good liar as well, because in fact I ignore this detail.

Humour, Brenus, humour. I know, don’t worry.

“If I remember correctly, your grandfather was in the resistance”. He was SNCF, railways, for our friends not familiar with these four letters. About that, I was deeply hurt by the condemnation of the SNCF for the deportation of the Jews. It was like a denial of his (and my grand-mother) fight and the huge risks they took. I will never vote Green.
But the fact is was a Communist cured me about political party involvement. This man who managed to organise the first agricultural co-operative, who built the first tractor, who fought against Nazism, a good man in fact, his God was Stalin, one of the biggest criminal on Earth… He was a unionist, at a period when the police was shooting at demonstrators and unionists. I am proud of his actions, but, still, Stalin…

[Louis VI the Fat]

But the fact is was a Communist cured me about political party involvement. This man who managed to organise the first agricultural co-operative, who built the first tractor, who fought against Nazism, a good man in fact, his God was Stalin, one of the biggest criminal on Earth… He was a unionist, at a period when the police was shooting at demonstrators and unionists. I am proud of his actions, but, still, Stalin…Do you know this saying: 'If you're not a socialist when you're twenty you don't have a heart, if you are still a socialist when you're forty you don't have a brain'.

Is the same not true for our history?

If you were not a socialist in the thirties or forties you did not have a heart. If you were still a socialist after, well, when actually? A communist after 1953/6? A socialist long after 1968? After Mitterrand?

It is possible to be a good man and be mistaken, misled. Don't you lose your faith because of it.

Get well, mate, je t'adore. God bless your grandparents.

[Papewaio]

But the fact is was a Communist cured me about political party involvement. This man who managed to organise the first agricultural co-operative, who built the first tractor, who fought against Nazism, a good man in fact, his God was Stalin, one of the biggest criminal on Earth… He was a unionist, at a period when the police was shooting at demonstrators and unionists. I am proud of his actions, but, still, Stalin…

He didn't get much choice in fighting Nazism. It was either fight or die. Others had the option of walking away and instead fought, his was one of political and physical survival... of course with millions of his country men being body shields in the process.

The first oil powered farm tractor was used when Stalin was 11.
The first gasoline powered farm tractor was used when Stalin was 14. Which was the age Stalin was sent to the seminary.

The agricultural co-operative of his forced collectivism didn't start to the late 1920's. While by 1915 Henry Ford was already selling mass produced farm tractors. And by 1914 the far more successful version of collectivism the Kibbutz was well under way.

While the Commonwealth, USA and Israel managed to increase their agricultural ability... Stalin halved output and caused several million to die in famines.

As a farm boy from New Zealand, Stalin is not someone I have an agricultural respect for.


Do you know this saying: 'If you're not a socialist when you're twenty you don't have a heart, if you are still a socialist when you're forty you don't have a brain'.

Here we say teens for socialists, thirties for liberals... might be more accurate to say socialism for uni students, liberalism for mortgagees.