anti-castro terrorist [Archive]

drone

01-16-2007, 00:44

Wiki article on the guy and his background here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles) .

It's rumored the US is trying to find him another country to be shunted off to - so far, unsuccessfully.
Why don't they just send him to Gitmo? It's like extradition, only different! ~D

Del Arroyo

01-16-2007, 02:14

Let's be serious though, it's not like the US is just letting the man run free. He is in jail.

They just don't feel like handing him over to either Castro or Chavez. Given the circumstances, I think they're completely justified.

It's not like no one has ever held out on handing over criminals to the US...

GoreBag

01-16-2007, 04:56

What circumstances? The guy blew up a plane. I remember a case where a certain Argentinian policeman was tried in the US for human rights violations back in Argentina. I don't see the discrepancy.

PanzerJaeger

01-16-2007, 05:52

This is why the semantics surrounding the "War on Terrorism" need to be changed.

We are not fighting a war on terrorism, we are fighting a war on muslims that attacked us - or more broadly: a War on America's Enemies.

Of course that doesnt quite roll off the politically correct tongue now does it?

Del Arroyo

01-16-2007, 14:33

What circumstances? The guy blew up a plane. I remember a case where a certain Argentinian policeman was tried in the US for human rights violations back in Argentina. I don't see the discrepancy.

Maybe the fact that we don't have diplomatic relations with Cuba, and we wouldn't with Venezuela if it wasn't for oil? The fact that Castro is a dictator, and Chavez is well on his way?

Criminal justice does not trump geopolitics.

And I will repeat, it's not like we're giving this guy a daggone medal-- we're not even allowing him freedom, he's in our jails. And as soon as Castro and Chavez decide to play nice, they can have him back.

Banquo's Ghost

01-16-2007, 14:46

Scene 1: President Ahmadinejad of Iran ponders what to do with the recently arrested Osama bin Laden.

"Maybe the fact that we don't have diplomatic relations with the United States, and we wouldn't with Britain if it wasn't for for the beer? The fact that Bush is a war-monger, and Blair is well on his way?

Criminal justice does not trump geopolitics.

And I will repeat, it's not like we're giving this guy a fresh set of clothes -- we're not even allowing him freedom, he's in our jails. And as soon as Bush and Blair decide to play nice, they can have him back."

[/dream sequence]

Hmm. I wonder if turnabout would be considered fair play? :inquisitive:

Del Arroyo

01-16-2007, 14:55

Re: BG

Well, if that were ever to happen, Iran would of course be free to play the game. Though I imagine we could probably bring more pressure to bear on Iran than either Cuba or Venezuela can on us. Not to mention the fact that Osama is a mass-media charged high-priority target, whereas this Cuban is lower-profile, a minor player, who is being used by minor countries in an attempt at counter-propaganda.

P.S.: Not to mention the fact that I, personally, would feel better with Osama in jail anywhere rather than on the loose.

Banquo's Ghost

01-16-2007, 15:16

rory_20_uk

01-16-2007, 16:47

PJ, better to be silent and for people to think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and for them to know it to be the case.

~:smoking:

Kralizec

01-16-2007, 17:23

And I will repeat, it's not like we're giving this guy a daggone medal-- we're not even allowing him freedom, he's in our jails. And as soon as Castro and Chavez decide to play nice, they can have him back.

I wouldn't want him extradited as I don't expect he'd get a fair trial in either Cuba or Venzezuala.

I expect that the jail sentence he could possibly get for violation immigration laws pales in comparison with what he actually did, though. Seeing as how that's the only thing he's been charged for as of yet.

If a terrorist walks away after killing 73 people just so that the US can spite Castro and Chavez...:shame:

Spetulhu

01-16-2007, 19:34

How about a compromise? Send him to Camp Gitmo! :idea2:

Crazed Rabbit

01-16-2007, 22:42

So much for the Global War on Terrorism.

Steadfast principles and all...

So, you're not one for basic human rights of prisoners?

IIRC, people complaining about this are the same ones who complain when we give prisoners to other countries who might not have the best reputation for humanitarian rights.

CR

Banquo's Ghost

01-16-2007, 23:04

So, you're not one for basic human rights of prisoners?

IIRC, people complaining about this are the sames who complain when we give prisoners to other countries who might not have the best reputation for humanitarian rights.

I have to agree CR, and hold my hand up as being guilty - at least of a level of double standards. You're right to pick me up on it. :embarassed:

I imagine it would be clearer to me if the US looked as if they would charge the man with terrorism rather than a simple immigration offence and pursue the case wihtout needing to deport. But this may not be possible under the law in the US.

Mooks

01-17-2007, 04:13

I say give him to the commies. No point in drawing attention and criticm.

Beren Son Of Barahi

01-18-2007, 01:27

the important part of all the reports is that he was trained as a bomb maker by the CIA...Cuba & Venezuela should invade the USA as its a training ground for terrorist??

Del Arroyo

Maybe the fact that we don't have diplomatic relations with Cuba, and we wouldn't with Venezuela if it wasn't for oil?

Doesn't Venezuela supply like 25% of Us oil imports?? see below
Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country Nov-06 Oct-06 YTD 2006 Nov-05 Jan - Nov 2005
CANADA 2,065 1,704 1,778 1,756 1,609
MEXICO 1,462 1,481 1,606 1,658 1,542
VENEZUELA 1,069 1,125 1,146 1,009 1,246
NIGERIA 919 1,049 1,046 1,163 1,068

Total Imports of Petroleum (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country Nov-06 Oct-06 YTD 2006 Nov-05 Jan - Nov 2005
CANADA 2,584 2,144 2,291 2,305 2,149
MEXICO 1,571 1,646 1,730 1,777 1,650
SAUDI ARABIA 1,489 1,382 1,459 1,370 1,543
VENEZUELA 1,234 1,354 1,418 1,258 1,529

that not just a little bit of oil and fuel, its 2.5 million barrels a day...if not from them you would get it from Iraq or Iran?...

Off topic, can anyone count up the amount of CIA mistakes that have become massive international problems in the last 10 years or so.... :wall:

Cronos Impera

01-18-2007, 21:00

Gee, when the bomb blew up at Lockerbie Libya became politically-isolated for not handling down the terrorist to the American justice. All countries agreed on that.
Now if the guy is an anti-communist we don't call him a terrorist, we call him a freedom fighter. I'd have him hanged like I'd hang Pacepa ( a trecherous Romanian Securitatea general who desearted to the US after doing some...bad things in Romania).
You Americans allow all sorts of crap to immigrate to your country just to get a cheaper labour force.

Sjakihata

01-18-2007, 21:24

So, you're not one for basic human rights of prisoners?

IIRC, people complaining about this are the same ones who complain when we give prisoners to other countries who might not have the best reputation for humanitarian rights.

CR

This has nothing to do about that. Cuba has a good legal system as good as any western one.

If you want to make that argument, how about the US gives the prisoners at Guantanamo a fair trial?

Crazed Rabbit

01-18-2007, 22:45

This has nothing to do about that. Cuba has a good legal system as good as any western one.

haha!
Are you really serious?

If you want to make that argument, how about the US gives the prisoners at Guantanamo a fair trial?

I believe they are going to recieve military tribunals- not that that is particularily relevant.

CR

Scurvy

01-18-2007, 23:10

This has nothing to do about that. Cuba has a good legal system as good as any western one.

Debatable

I believe they are going to recieve military tribunals

and thats really fair....

Now if the guy is an anti-communist we don't call him a terrorist, we call him a freedom fighter.

:yes:

:2thumbsup:

Tribesman

01-19-2007, 00:06

Now if the guy is an anti-communist we don't call him a terrorist, we call him a freedom fighter.
To make it slightly more confusing , what do you call it when you call them terrorists (they are socialists internationals) yet pledge to give them 84 million in arms and training ?
So there are 2 ballons up for grabs for whoever guesses which group whose armed faction is on the US proscribed terrorist list is getting a nice arms shipment courtesy of the US .

Ice

01-19-2007, 06:02

If anyone thinks we are going to bow to the demands of the rinky dink Island of Cuba or our good friends down in Venezula, they are sadly mistaken. I'm glad we are keeping him here. Let them complain more.

Tribesman

01-19-2007, 11:25

I'm glad we are keeping him here.
So Ice , you rejoice that alledged terrorists who supposedly blow up airliners and slaughter civilians including olympic sportsmen can escape justice courtesy of the good ol' US of A .:inquisitive:
What a person you are for allowing political prejudice to destoy any claim you may have had about supporting justice and fighting terrorism .

Ice

01-19-2007, 14:42

So Ice , you rejoice that alledged terrorists who supposedly blow up airliners and slaughter civilians including olympic sportsmen can escape justice courtesy of the good ol' US of A .:inquisitive:
What a person you are for allowing political prejudice to destoy any claim you may have had about supporting justice and fighting terrorism .

I don't believe he's had a trial yet, Tribesman. Don't paint me as a terrorist lover just because I don't want to the deport the the man to one of our enemies.

Edit:

Cuba says Posada also planned bomb blasts in Havana hotels that killed an Italian tourist in 1997 and plotted to blow up Cuban President
Fidel Castro during a regional summit in Panama in 2000.

From what I see in the article, I see no concrete evidence the man is guilty, only Cuba saying he is.

Kralizec

01-19-2007, 16:51

I don't believe he's had a trial yet, Tribesman. Don't paint me as a terrorist lover just because I don't want to the deport the the man to one of our enemies.

Edit:

From what I see in the article, I see no concrete evidence the man is guilty, only Cuba saying he is.

Ice, notice:

Cuba said on Monday the United States should indict Luis Posada Carriles, a militant anti-Castro exile accused in the bombing of a Cuban airliner, for terrorism instead of minor immigration charges.

It doesn't seem likely they're going to investigate if any of Cuba's allegations are founded, moreso because:

Posada, who was trained by the CIA as an explosives expert in the early 1960s

doc_bean

01-19-2007, 17:05

Ice

01-19-2007, 17:09

Ice, notice:

It doesn't seem likely they're going to investigate if any of Cuba's allegations are founded, moreso because:

It's not really our or a close alies problem, now is it? Why waste our resources investigating it.

Doc:

I'm not really heavily opposed or for Gitmo.

doc_bean

01-19-2007, 17:13

I'm not really heavily opposed or for Gitmo.

They're held there without a proper conviction, what's the difference ?

Ice

01-19-2007, 17:15

They're held there without a proper conviction, what's the difference ?

I'm not really sure the point you are trying to make, Doc.

Kralizec

01-19-2007, 17:16

It's not really our or a close alies problem, now is it? Why waste our resources investigating it.

Because 72 people died in a suspicious plane crash? Oh wait they probably were commies...

Ice

01-19-2007, 17:23

Because 72 people died in a suspicious plane crash? Oh wait they probably were commies...

Like I said, not our problem, and yes they most likely were communists considering they were Cubans. :yes:

Goofball

01-19-2007, 17:28

PJ, better to be silent and for people to think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and for them to know it to be the case.

~:smoking:

I don't know about that. It seems to me that he very accurately described the current administration's actual (though unacknowledged) foreign policy.

doc_bean

01-19-2007, 17:37

I'm not really sure the point you are trying to make, Doc.

Well, you are opposed to handing him over to Cuba, saying he hasn't had a trial yet, nevermind that that trial would actually be Cuba's business and they'd need him for it, but anyway, this implies you think a trial is important. I asked you about Gitmo since it's full of people held without having received a proper trial, but accused of terrorism.

So you are actually for protecting an 'alledged' terrorist who just happened to target an unpopular (to the US) regime, but you don't see a problem with keeping a bunch of (mostly) innocents locked up, without a trial, by the US ?

If you don't see the contradiction here, I'm afraid you're beyond help.

Ice

01-19-2007, 18:29

Well, you are opposed to handing him over to Cuba, saying he hasn't had a trial yet, nevermind that that trial would actually be Cuba's business and they'd need him for it, but anyway, this implies you think a trial is important. I asked you about Gitmo since it's full of people held without having received a proper trial, but accused of terrorism.

So you are actually for protecting an 'alledged' terrorist who just happened to target an unpopular (to the US) regime, but you don't see a problem with keeping a bunch of (mostly) innocents locked up, without a trial, by the US ?

If you don't see the contradiction here, I'm afraid you're beyond help.

My point with the trial was to show that he has not been proven guilty. The majority of posters in this thread are acting like the man is guilty and should be given back to Cuban Authorities. I have yet to see concrete proof that he is guily, and giving him a trial for allegations by the Cuban Government that relate nothing to the USA, its allies, or its interests is not at the top of our list.

Gitmo is another story. I'm not totally against it, because I believe that it serves our peope and our interests.

Pannonian

01-19-2007, 19:02

My point with the trial was to show that he has not been proven guilty. The majority of posters in this thread are acting like the man is guilty and should be given back to Cuban Authorities. I have yet to see concrete proof that he is guily, and giving him a trial for allegations by the Cuban Government that relate nothing to the USA, its allies, or its interests is not at the top of our list.
A Catch 22 situation. He can't be handed over because he hasn't been proven guilty. He can't be proven guilty because he won't be handed over.

Tribesman

01-19-2007, 19:18

I don't believe he's had a trial yet, Tribesman. Don't paint me as a terrorist lover just because I don't want to the deport the the man to one of our enemies.

ah I see , so you don't know that he had a trial , and at a time when the country trying him was one of your allies .~:doh:

I suppose you don't know either that another country whose government is allied to your convicted him on terrorist charges , and other countries that are youre allies want him prosecuted on terrorism and murder charges .~:doh:

It appears that your only reason for taking your stance is along the lines of "Chavez Castro bad , anything not Castro Chavez good" .
Well sorry to break it to you Ice , but that reasoning is absolutely ridiculous .

My point with the trial was to show that he has not been proven guilty.~:doh:

Like I said, not our problem, and yes they most likely were communists considering they were Cubans.~:doh:

It's not really our or a close alies problem, now is it? ~:doh:

See a pattern emerging here Ice .
a possible explanation is found in your words here ......
From what I see in the article, I see no concrete evidence the man is guilty, only Cuba saying he is.
It may , just may be advisable for you to try and form your opinions based on something a little more in depth than what you read in one article .:yes:
The fact that he admitted one of the atrocities that one of your friendly allies are very pissed about might be enough to enlighten you that there is more to this than just Castro saying it .

Ice

01-19-2007, 21:28

ah I see , so you don't know that he had a trial , and at a time when the country trying him was one of your allies .~:doh:

Was an ally.

I suppose you don't know either that another country whose government is allied to your convicted him on terrorist charges , and other countries that are youre allies want him prosecuted on terrorism and murder charges .~:doh:

Good for them. He serves no threat to them, does he?

It appears that your only reason for taking your stance is along the lines of "Chavez Castro bad , anything not Castro Chavez good" .
Well sorry to break it to you Ice , but that reasoning is absolutely ridiculous .

Says you, Tribesman. That appears to be how the most of the world works.

~:doh:
~:doh:
~:doh:

Helpful.

See a pattern emerging here Ice .
a possible explanation is found in your words here ......
It may , just may be advisable for you to try and form your opinions based on something a little more in depth than what you read in one article .:yes:
The fact that he admitted one of the atrocities that one of your friendly allies are very pissed about might be enough to enlighten you that there is more to this than just Castro saying it

I was under the impression that the dicussion in this thread was revolving around the articile listed. If anyone would introduce more sources, I would gladly take a look at them.

Tribesman

01-19-2007, 22:01

Good for them. He serves no threat to them, does he?

What absolute nonsense .
How the hell does your mind work ?
Not at all seems to be the answer .

So if a Canadian murdered an American and was arrested in France for traffic offences it is good if France doesn't hand over the murder suspect .

I was under the impression that the dicussion in this thread was revolving around the articile listed. If anyone would introduce more sources, I would gladly take a look at them.
Well ~:doh: someone already did , didn't you follow it ?:dizzy2:

Obviously not since if you had read stuff like ......
The 11 Guyanese passengers included 18 and 19-year-old medical students, and the young wife of a Guyanese diplomat.

....you wouldn't have written

Like I said, not our problem, and yes they most likely were communists considering they were Cubans. would you ?

and you clearly didn't read ........In 1997, Posada was again implicated in a series of terrorist bombings in Cuba intended to deter the growing tourism trade on the island. An Italian businessman was killed and 11 people wounded as a result. In a taped interview with the New York Times, he said: "It is sad that someone is dead, but we can't stop." Posada was reportedly disappointed with the reluctance of American news organisations to report the bombing attacks, saying "If there is no publicity, the job is useless"

Ice

01-19-2007, 22:51

What absolute nonsense .
How the hell does your mind work ?
Not at all seems to be the answer .

Sorry I don't answer personal attacks. It may be good idea to learn how to debate without using language such as that.

So if a Canadian murdered an American and was arrested in France for traffic offences it is good if France doesn't hand over the murder suspect .

It's the French government's decision. Considering the USA is an ally of France's, I don't think this would be a problem.

Well ~:doh: someone already did , didn't you follow it ?:dizzy2:

No, I must have missed it.

Obviously not since if you had read stuff like ......
The 11 Guyanese passengers included 18 and 19-year-old medical students, and the young wife of a Guyanese diplomat.

....you wouldn't have written
would you ?

and you clearly didn't read ........In 1997, Posada was again implicated in a series of terrorist bombings in Cuba intended to deter the growing tourism trade on the island. An Italian businessman was killed and 11 people wounded as a result. In a taped interview with the New York Times, he said: "It is sad that someone is dead, but we can't stop." Posada was reportedly disappointed with the reluctance of American news organisations to report the bombing attacks, saying "If there is no publicity, the job is useless"

Unforunate.

Goofball

01-20-2007, 00:16

So if a Canadian murdered an American and was arrested in France for traffic offences it is good if France doesn't hand over the murder suspect .It's the French government's decision. Considering the USA is an ally of France's, I don't think this would be a problem.

You've dodged the question Ice. While I don't agree with his tone in this thread (bad! Tribesy, Bad! It's Friday! Relax, have a beer!~:cheers: ), Tribesman makes a very good point here that you are skirting around without answering.

The question is not whose decision it is to make. Obviously it's France's decision, they are the ones who are in posession of the accused. Short of resorting to armed conflict, the U.S. has no choice but to live with whatever France decides.

The question is, what is the right thing for France to do? Refuse to turn the guy over in order to spite the U.S., even though that would constitute a miscarriage of justice, or turn the guy over based on the merits of the case, regardless of Franco/American relations.

Ice

01-20-2007, 01:57

You've dodged the question Ice. While I don't agree with his tone in this thread (bad! Tribesy, Bad! It's Friday! Relax, have a beer!~:cheers: ), Tribesman makes a very good point here that you are skirting around without answering.

The question is not whose decision it is to make. Obviously it's France's decision, they are the ones who are in posession of the accused. Short of resorting to armed conflict, the U.S. has no choice but to live with whatever France decides.

The question is, what is the right thing for France to do? Refuse to turn the guy over in order to spite the U.S., even though that would constitute a miscarriage of justice, or turn the guy over based on the merits of the case, regardless of Franco/American relations.

I appreciate the fact that I'm not the only one who is a bit annoyed by the way Tribesman posted in this thread. Thank you Goofball. :bow:

To try to answer you question isn't easy. What exactly is "right"? In the best interests of France or what is "morally" right? If we had relations with France, like we do with Cuba, I would not expect France to turn the subject over. I would want them to, after all he killed a fellow American, but I would not expect nor blame France.

Tribesman

01-20-2007, 04:55

Sorry I don't answer personal attacks. It may be good idea to learn how to debate without using language such as that.

And it might be an idea to know something about a subject before you attempt to debate it .:idea2:

Ice

01-20-2007, 08:11

And it might be an idea to know something about a subject before you attempt to debate it .:idea2:

Regardless of my knowledge, that type of debating is not acceptable. Atleast debate with class. I'm done arguing anyway, due to the fact that I do a lack a knowledge about this subject, and am a bit aphethic about it. It wasn't exactly that you were wrong, it was just the way you presented your arguement, Tribesman.

Tribesman

01-20-2007, 11:48

Regardless of my knowledge, that type of debating is not acceptable. Atleast debate with class.
I am afraid I will have to disagree with you there , debating with class comes a vey poor second to debating using valid points based on facts pertaining to the topic under debate .

Ser Clegane

01-20-2007, 12:16

debating with class comes a vey poor second to debating using valid points based on facts pertaining to the topic under debate

Not quite.

Even if somebody is wrong or does not make valid points, we expect others still to behave repectfully on this board.
Making valid points is not a prerequisite for participating in discussions - respecting our forum rules is.

Ice

01-20-2007, 18:33

I am afraid I will have to disagree with you there , debating with class comes a vey poor second to debating using valid points based on facts pertaining to the topic under debate .

No, Tribesman, you can omit phrases like "What absolute nonsense .How the hell does your mind work ?Not at all seems to be the answer ." They are not needed, nor do they help the debate. All that is flaming. Like I said I'm not saying your wrong, I appear to be here due to my lack of knowledge, but it just bugs me how you approached the debate.

Tribesman

01-21-2007, 12:20

No, Tribesman, you can omit phrases like "What absolute nonsense .How the hell does your mind work ?Not at all seems to be the answer ." They are not needed, nor do they help the debate
Oh I see , yep .
I could have written .......
" It appears to me that your statement is lacking in any rational thought pertaining to the situation and facts surrounding the events .
I must wonder how someone can come up with such an opinion , a strong opinion I might add , when it would appear they are almost completely deviod of any knowledge regarding the subject they are talking about .
It would certainly seem that for someone to form a view on something that they do not know about is a result of them not engaging any thought process in their brain at all . "

But I don't talk like that and I don't write like that . If someone is talking rubbish then it gets called rubbish .
When what I write crosses the line of what is acceptable on this forum the moderators are not slow to tell me so .

it just bugs me how you approached the debate.
It bugs me how you approached the debate , in that your approach was simply " its Cuba so no matter what the topic is about and what the facts may be I am going to jump on the anti Cuba side regardless because errrr.....welll....ummmm....well they is commies right:yes: "

Ice

01-21-2007, 19:20

Oh I see , yep .
I could have written .......
" It appears to me that your statement is lacking in any rational thought pertaining to the situation and facts surrounding the events .
I must wonder how someone can come up with such an opinion , a strong opinion I might add , when it would appear they are almost completely deviod of any knowledge regarding the subject they are talking about .
It would certainly seem that for someone to form a view on something that they do not know about is a result of them not engaging any thought process in their brain at all . "

But I don't talk like that and I don't write like that . If someone is talking rubbish then it gets called rubbish .
When what I write the line of what is acceptable on this forum the moderators are not slow to tell me so .

It bugs me how you approached the debate , in that your approach was simply " its Cuba so no matter what the topic is about and what the facts may be I am going to jump on the anti Cuba side regardless because errrr.....welll....ummmm....well they is commies right:yes: "

Exactly Tribesman. You win, I'm done.