Ptolemaic Ethiopians

[MeinPanzer]

In the description for the Ethiopian troops of the Ptolemaic army on the site it says:


There is little textual evidence for their involvement in Ptolemaic armies, though the amount of period art material depicting them fighting with the armies of the Ptolemies is simply staggering.

I was wondering what "staggering" evidence this is?

[Justiciar]

They made no mention of staggering evidence. They simply said that the presence of Ethiopian or other sub-saharan soldiers in the art of Ptolemaic Egypt is so common that to deny their involvement in Ptolemaic armies would be silly. Makes sense to me.

[Fondor_Yards]

They made no mention of staggering evidence. They simply said that the presence of Ethiopian or other sub-saharan soldiers in the art of Ptolemaic Egypt is so common that to deny their involvement in Ptolemaic armies would be silly. Makes sense to me.


There is little textual evidence for their involvement in Ptolemaic armies, though the amount of period art material depicting them fighting with the armies of the Ptolemies is simply staggering.


;).

[MeinPanzer]

;).


There is little textual evidence for their involvement in Ptolemaic armies, though the amount of period art material depicting them fighting with the armies of the Ptolemies is simply staggering.

Yes, and I would like to see this period art, or at least some sources depicting it so I can find it myself.

[QwertyMIDX]

Our Ptolemaic guy has been hard to get a hold of lately, but I'll try and get him to show up. I do remember reading about some relationship between the Kingdom of Meroe and the Ptolemaics, especially under Ptolemy IV though. I think it was in Bevan's the House of Ptolemy, but I'm a bit hazy.

[MeinPanzer]

Our Ptolemaic guy has been hard to get a hold of lately, but I'll try and get him to show up. I do remember reading about some relationship between the Kingdom of Meroe and the Ptolemaics, especially under Ptolemy IV though. I think it was in Bevan's the House of Ptolemy, but I'm a bit hazy.

The only evidence that I know of for the equipment Ptolemaic native troops are a number of terracotta figurines found in Egypt. They look fairly similar to your "Ethiopian" unit, with a few major differences. These figurines carry small double-axes and shields, rather than large double axes, and wear what may be mail but which may also be some sort of padded or quilted jerkin. These figures, however, are generally thought to be Nubians, not Ethiopians.

[QwertyMIDX]

The best I can do is try and get our Ptolemaic guy to post, sorry. I myself was a bit suprised by the big double-edged two-handed axe and I still don't know where they came from. I've been hounding him for other stuff though so this will go on the list I promise.

[VandalCarthage]

These figurines carry small double-axes and shields, rather than large double axes, and wear what may be mail but which may also be some sort of padded or quilted jerkin. These figures, however, are generally thought to be Nubians, not Ethiopians.

I, like Mike, am still not 100% on board with the enormous axe. The only justification I have heard for it was transmission from Thracian mercenaries, which doesn't really satisfy me.

[MeinPanzer]

I, like Mike, am still not 100% on board with the enormous axe. The only justification I have heard for it was transmission from Thracian mercenaries, which doesn't really satisfy me.

That would be strange, since Thracian mercenaries never wielded axes.

[QwertyMIDX]

Bipennis?

[MeinPanzer]

Bipennis?

Do you have any archaeological sources depicting Thracian soldiers carrying axes?

[QwertyMIDX]

The bipennis is all over thracian art...it's probably the singal most common artifact depicted.

I found this thread on the same subject from a while ago btw:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63017

[Sarcasm]

Do you have any archaeological sources depicting Thracian soldiers carrying axes?

Your tone is not appreciated. Go check some tombs in Thrace for some frescos on the walls - Alexandrovo is a pretty easy thing to find.

EDIT: As for the size of the axes, there was some talk about reducing the size of it so it could be shared by other units, namely an Iberian regional.

[QwertyMIDX]

To be fair IIRC that Thracian is naked and killing a boar.

[Sarcasm]

So?

I don't discard spears for greeks, and there's frescos of naked cavalrymen hunting boars too.

[MeinPanzer]

Your tone is not appreciated. Go check some tombs in Thrace for some frescos on the walls - Alexandrovo is a pretty easy thing to find.

One figure in all the Thracian tomb paintings carries an axe- an otherwise unarmed hunter. None of the soldier figures carry axes.


EDIT: As for the size of the axes, there was some talk about reducing the size of it so it could be shared by other units, namely an Iberian regional

That's sensible, but I find it kind of bizarre that the other elements of these figurines was clearly used as a source, but the shields they also carry were not.

[QwertyMIDX]

I'm not saying that the Thracians didn't use bipennis in a miliatry role, I'm just saying a nake guy killing a boar with one isn't proof they did. I'd argue that it's likely they did, considering the high frequency of it's depiction. I mean none of the figures have a falx ethier, and yet we know they used those...

[Sarcasm]

One figure in all the Thracian tomb paintings carries an axe- an otherwise unarmed hunter. None of the soldier figures carry axes.

That's sensible, but I find it kind of bizarre that the other elements of these figurines was clearly used as a source, but the shields they also carry were not.

Ehhrrr...it's a hunting scene, no soldiers in at Alexandrovo. Doesn't mean they didn't use the same weapons in war though, look at the Xyphos for example. There's really one sort of battle scene close to the ceiling.

The double axe is an extremely common symbol in Thracian objects for example, particularly Odrysian ones.

[MeinPanzer]

So?

I don't discard spears for greeks, and there's frescos of naked cavalrymen hunting boars too.

There are plenty of representations of Greek soldiers using spears. There are no representations of Thracian soldiers using axes.


Ehhrrr...it's a hunting scene, no soldiers in at Alexandrovo.

There are two other one-on-one combat scenes from other panels in the Alexandrovo tomb, both showing an infantryman fighting a cavalryman.


Doesn't mean they didn't use the same weapons in war though, look at the Xyphos for example. There's really one sort of battle scene close to the ceiling.

Without any evidence to support it, we have no way of knowing. You could argue that Macedonians wielded axes in combat, too, since some Macedonian hunting scenes show men wielding axes.


The double axe is an extremely common symbol in Thracian objects for example, particularly Odrysian ones.

That's true, but without evidence of axes in a military context, I'd wager that soldiers didn't use them.


I'm not saying that the Thracians didn't use bipennis in a miliatry role, I'm just saying a nake guy killing a boar with one isn't proof they did. I'd argue that it's likely they did, considering the high frequency of it's depiction. I mean none of the figures have a falx ethier, and yet we know they used those...

I disagree that the bipennis was ever used in a military role, but as you say, we have no evidence to prove they did.

The falx (or a weapon very similar to it, perhaps the sica), however, is wielded by some figures from the Kazanluk tombs, as well as a stele of a figure from Asia Minor. Numerous falxes have also been found as parts of funerary panoplies in many graves, showing that they were used in a military context.

[Sarcasm]

There are plenty of representations of Greek soldiers using spears. There are no representations of Thracian soldiers using axes.

There are two other one-on-one combat scenes from other panels in the Alexandrovo tomb, both showing an infantryman fighting a cavalryman.

Without any evidence to support it, we have no way of knowing. You could argue that Macedonians wielded axes in combat, too, since some Macedonian hunting scenes show men wielding axes.

That's true, but without evidence of axes in a military context, I'd wager that soldiers didn't use them.

I disagree that the bipennis was ever used in a military role, but as you say, we have no evidence to prove they did.

The falx (or a weapon very similar to it, perhaps the sica), however, is wielded by some figures from the Kazanluk tombs, as well as a stele of a figure from Asia Minor. Numerous falxes have also been found as parts of funerary panoplies in many graves, showing that they were used in a military context.

I did say there was a sort of battle. I know the damn paintings, it's more of the nature of a duel than anything else.

Yeah there is representation of a Makedonian guy using an axe in a hunting scene, but they don't make it one of their national symbols now do they? And Makedonia *is* close to Thrace, why would it be that big of a leap to have those axes there? The nature of their army just wouldn't exactly promote the use of them.

The bipenne was used in other cultures in a military role, there's no real reason for the Thracians not to have used them. There's more evidence for them being used as weapon, even if it doesn't warrant the creation of a unit, than not.

I'm done with this. You obviously have your opinion set.

[MeinPanzer]

I did say there was a sort of battle. I know the damn paintings, it's more of the nature of a duel than anything else.

You said "no soldiers in at Alexandrovo," and now you're saying that there are soldiers, and you know about them?


Yeah there is representation of a Makedonian guy using an axe in a hunting scene, but they don't make it one of their national symbols now do they? And Makedonia *is* close to Thrace, why would it be that big of a leap to have those axes there? The nature of their army just wouldn't exactly promote the use of them.

Because there is no archaeological evidence to support that speculation, on either the Thracian or Macedonian count.


There's more evidence for them being used as weapon, even if it doesn't warrant the creation of a unit, than not.

[Sarcasm]

You said "no soldiers in at Alexandrovo," and now you're saying that there are soldiers, and you know about them?

Did you even read post number #18? You really need to drop the attitude. Need a quote?

[Justiciar]

Rather than creating a new thread, and for want of somewhere suitable to ask it..

What brought you to adopting the Greyhoundesque image of the Molossus over the Mastiff image? I'm not saying either one's wrong, I'm just curious as to the deciding factor.

[paullus]

We know that some Ethiopians fought for the Ptolemaioi against the southern rebels in the first decades of the 2nd century BC. The soldiers were not Nubians because the Nubians were allies of the rebels. I don't have time to look up the source because I'm off to class, but it may be as simple as Polybios or it may be in one of the Komanos inscriptions. There are also quite a few Trogodutai in papyri in military roles. I could see Ethiopiai or Trogodutai as potential names for the unit, based on that evidence.

There's also the african terracottas, which do not have the consistent armor. Some are nearly naked, some appear to have quilted armor as you said, and others are wearing tunics. Some carry shields and some do not. The axes are generally smaller in these cases, but do you think you could make a very large terracotta axe? A smaller axe was more workable, and these weren't masterpieces, they were simple figurines. So that may be an artist's adaptation.

Also, according to one of our guys, Urnamma, there are a large number of these african soldiers bearing very large axes on one of the Ptolemaic temples on the far upper nile.

If it makes you feel any better, the previous description won a promise to decrease the size of the axe. So its on the list of eventual reworks, it just takes time sometimes to get those sorts of things changed.

[MeinPanzer]

We know that some Ethiopians fought for the Ptolemaioi against the southern rebels in the first decades of the 2nd century BC. The soldiers were not Nubians because the Nubians were allies of the rebels. I don't have time to look up the source because I'm off to class, but it may be as simple as Polybios or it may be in one of the Komanos inscriptions. There are also quite a few Trogodutai in papyri in military roles. I could see Ethiopiai or Trogodutai as potential names for the unit, based on that evidence.

Fair enough. I'd actually see more reason to label them as Trogodytic based on the evidence that that Launey's brought forth, though.


There's also the african terracottas, which do not have the consistent armor.

It should be noted that the only figure which may wear mail or quilted armour is also a cavalryman. Wouldn't the unit be more accurate if the men were unarmoured, and the officer figure were armoured perhaps?


Some are nearly naked, some appear to have quilted armor as you said, and others are wearing tunics.

None are actually naked- all wear trousers and tunics, but some also wear mantles or himatia.


Some carry shields and some do not. The axes are generally smaller in these cases, but do you think you could make a very large terracotta axe? A smaller axe was more workable, and these weren't masterpieces, they were simple figurines. So that may be an artist's adaptation.

If they intended for large terracotta axes, how could they be wielded with a shield? That would be impossible. Some also carry sword and shield, so it is clear that the axes depicted are intended for one-handed use.


Also, according to one of our guys, Urnamma, there are a large number of these african soldiers bearing very large axes on one of the Ptolemaic temples on the far upper nile.

The Praeneste mosaic is not an accurate source at all. Those soldiers also carry amazon shields (as do some other terracotta figurines) and are fighting mythical beasts.


If it makes you feel any better, the previous description won a promise to decrease the size of the axe. So its on the list of eventual reworks, it just takes time sometimes to get those sorts of things changed.

I understand, I just think it would be more accurate to depict troops with small one-handed axes and shields, especially since the shields are pretty neat looking!

[paullus]

Hey MeinPanzer,

I had been thinking that the one with the armor was a cavalryman, but I couldn't recall specifically so I didn't say anything. There's also an officer in the klerouchoi agemata hipparchy whose African. However, because I posted this morning I went and looked up images this afternoon, and the mounted african axeman I found (perhaps there's more than one) looks like he's wearing scale, not quilted armor, though that is a possibility as well.

The shield, as you point out, might be a more solid feature, though one is similar to the Amazonian shield you've maligned, and the other is similar to the kind used by Zulus in the 19th c. Also, of the figures I looked up today, most have smaller axes, as you've mentioned, though still bipennis-types and above average size I'd say. That said, one of those I looked at (he's from a Sekunda book) has a larger-sized axe. Still smaller than the one currently used, but probably a good size for a revised version of the unit.

Another thought on the shields: looking at the discussion going on in our dev forum about the Sab'yn, there's a STRONG chance one or both of these shields will end up on some of the east african regionals.

Re: Praeneste mosaic:
1) That's not what he was referring to. Temple reliefs, not mosaics, and near Aswan, not in a town outside of Rome.
2) Where the heck are the fantastic animals? I hadn't realized there weren't big cats and hippos in africa. You were very unfair to the mosaic, dear sir. The weaponry shown on soldiers is rather accurate (where, may I ask, are the Amazonian shields? I see none. Even if there were any, that doesn't discount the reliability of other details: from the Hellenistic period onward, the Hellenes regularly combined motifs from Archaic tales with contemporary events, including REAL Amazonian shields). I think you owe the Praeneste mosaic an apology!

[MeinPanzer]

Hey MeinPanzer,

I had been thinking that the one with the armor was a cavalryman, but I couldn't recall specifically so I didn't say anything. There's also an officer in the klerouchoi agemata hipparchy whose African. However, because I posted this morning I went and looked up images this afternoon, and the mounted african axeman I found (perhaps there's more than one) looks like he's wearing scale, not quilted armor, though that is a possibility as well.

If you mean Sekunda, The Ptolemaic Army, Fig. 104, his picture is fairly poor and makes the dimples on the "armour" look strange - I have a better quality image that I can post later if you'd like.


The shield, as you point out, might be a more solid feature, though one is similar to the Amazonian shield you've maligned, and the other is similar to the kind used by Zulus in the 19th c.

Ya, the Amazonian shield is definitely fantasy, but those "Zulu" shields are the ones I mean. There are a few different kinds from different figures, including ones with and without bosses.


Also, of the figures I looked up today, most have smaller axes, as you've mentioned, though still bipennis-types and above average size I'd say. That said, one of those I looked at (he's from a Sekunda book) has a larger-sized axe. Still smaller than the one currently used, but probably a good size for a revised version of the unit.

Do you mean Fig. 100 with the Amazon shield? If so, I agree that it's pretty large, but it's still clearly being wielded one-handed.


Another thought on the shields: looking at the discussion going on in our dev forum about the Sab'yn, there's a STRONG chance one or both of these shields will end up on some of the east african regionals.

That would be neat. This is pretty much the only evidence I know of for shields from the "Southern" portions of Africa incorporated in the oikoumene.


Re: Praeneste mosaic:
1) That's not what he was referring to. Temple reliefs, not mosaics, and near Aswan, not in a town outside of Rome.

Oh, I've never seen these before. Do you know of some books with information and images of this?


2) Where the heck are the fantastic animals? I hadn't realized there weren't big cats and hippos in africa.

There aren't just big cats and hippos on there! If you can find a good book with close-up detail shots of the different parts, along with their Greek titles, you will see that there are many fantastical creatures on there.


You were very unfair to the mosaic, dear sir. The weaponry shown on soldiers is rather accurate (where, may I ask, are the Amazonian shields? I see none. Even if there were any, that doesn't discount the reliability of other details: from the Hellenistic period onward, the Hellenes regularly combined motifs from Archaic tales with contemporary events, including REAL Amazonian shields). I think you owe the Praeneste mosaic an apology!

The weaponry was my mistake, they don't carry Amazon shields. However, as for the creatures...

You mean these guys hanging around a giant dinosaur/dragon entitled "Krokodilopardalis"?
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/graphic/nilemosaicth.jpg

Ah yes, very realistic ;).

And REAL Amazon shields? Please explain!

[QwertyMIDX]

If anyone wants to look at the, very famous, mosaic in question, here's a link to the full image:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/NileMosaicOfPalestrina.jpg

[Puupertti Ruma]

You mean these guys hanging around a giant dinosaur/dragon entitled "Krokodilopardalis"?
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/graphic/nilemosaicth.jpg



I am no expert in this, but doesn't krokodilopardalis sound awfully lot like crocodile? The reason why it looks like a giant lizard, could very well be the fact that it is "drawn" by a artist that has never actually seen a crocodile, only heard of it. That would make perfect sense if the mosaic in question is Roman, or more to be more precise non-eqyptian.

:edit: It would be nice to have english litterations of those greek words (as my greek is limited to what I've learned in EB forums and in maths and physics).

[keravnos]

If you mean Sekunda, The Ptolemaic Army, Fig. 104, his picture is fairly poor and makes the dimples on the "armour" look strange - I have a better quality image that I can post later if you'd like.


Please do!



There aren't just big cats and hippos on there! If you can find a good book with close-up detail shots of the different parts, along with their Greek titles, you will see that there are many fantastical creatures on there.


Or it may be that the guy just made an honest mistake. Instead of writing ΛΕΟΠΑΡΔΑΛΙΣ (meaning spotted lion in Greek), = cheetah, he wrote ΚΡΟΚΟΔΙΛΟΠΑΡΔΑΛΙΣ, which doesn't make much sense, but looks a lot like the other spotted big cats that are there. Besides, ΛΥΓΞ or lynx a little further up is an entirely real animal or ΛΕΑΙΝΑ meaning the female lion. The artist may take some creative liberties with the animals involved, ESPECIALLY THEIR FACES, but the pics of the people in their daily chores seem real enough.



You mean these guys hanging around a giant dinosaur/dragon entitled "Krokodilopardalis"?
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/graphic/nilemosaicth.jpg

Ah yes, very realistic ;).

See above. And use the big picture Mike has provided...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/NileMosaicOfPalestrina.jpg

[paullus]

And REAL Amazon shields? Please explain!

Ah, this was in reference to the imaginary Amazon shields in the mosaic.

I would welcome high quality images of the terracottas, of any of them really. I can access several through some books in the local art history collection, including a loin-clothed african, but most of the art history books seem to prefer other sorts of prints, and sekunda's prints are, as you've said, of generally inferior quality.

Re: the temple reliefs, I'm not sure from which temple, and I don't know if they are visible online somewhere. What I do know is that Urnamma has seen them personally at the Aswan museum. But he is away at the moment, I think. Perhaps if he swings by he can leave a comment.

Re: Praeneste. You shouldn't hardly discount the quality of other aspects of the mosaic because of some slightly fantastic animals. The Crocodile-pard is fantastic, sure, but few others are, and judging from the context may reflect even Ptolemaic beliefs about the wildlife further to the south. The rest of the mosaic is very detailed, and in some cases, one might even consider the subject matter boring for its every-day qualities.

[QwertyMIDX]

I have to say the croc-monster is more innaccurate than fantastic. It doesn't have wings, it's not a chimera or something, etc. I'd say the person just didn't know what the hell a crocodile looked like.

[MeinPanzer]

I am no expert in this, but doesn't krokodilopardalis sound awfully lot like crocodile? The reason why it looks like a giant lizard, could very well be the fact that it is "drawn" by a artist that has never actually seen a crocodile, only heard of it. That would make perfect sense if the mosaic in question is Roman, or more to be more precise non-eqyptian.

:edit: It would be nice to have english litterations of those greek words (as my greek is limited to what I've learned in EB forums and in maths and physics).

No, IIRC, there are actual, more realistic looking crocodiles elsewhere on the mosaic.


Please do!

I'm at work at the moment, but I'll post them when I get back home tonight.


Or it may be that the guy just made an honest mistake. Instead of writing ΛΕΟΠΑΡΔΑΛΙΣ (meaning spotted lion in Greek), = cheetah, he wrote ΚΡΟΚΟΔΙΛΟΠΑΡΔΑΛΙΣ, which doesn't make much sense, but looks a lot like the other spotted big cats that are there. Besides, ΛΥΓΞ or lynx a little further up is an entirely real animal or ΛΕΑΙΝΑ meaning the female lion. The artist may take some creative liberties with the animals involved, ESPECIALLY THEIR FACES, but the pics of the people in their daily chores seem real enough.

I agree that some of the creatures are obviously inaccurate portrayals of real animals. Others, however, are clearly based on fantastical accounts of African creatures.


I would welcome high quality images of the terracottas, of any of them really. I can access several through some books in the local art history collection, including a loin-clothed african, but most of the art history books seem to prefer other sorts of prints, and sekunda's prints are, as you've said, of generally inferior quality.

A loin-clothed African? If you could get a hold of that, I'd like to see it, because I don't think any one I've seen has had a loin cloth. The best books for images of those terracottas are the general catalogues of major museums (The British Museum prints several terracotta catalogues with some in them).


Re: Praeneste. You shouldn't hardly discount the quality of other aspects of the mosaic because of some slightly fantastic animals. The Crocodile-pard is fantastic, sure, but few others are, and judging from the context may reflect even Ptolemaic beliefs about the wildlife further to the south. The rest of the mosaic is very detailed, and in some cases, one might even consider the subject matter boring for its every-day qualities.

Well, if we're getting into the value of the imagery on the mosaic, we'll be entering a very deep vat of quicksand. I've seen wildly ranging dates and contexts for the mosaic, and this combined with the fact that it is a "Nilotic scene," and that it is showing what are probably Roman soldiers, means that in general I discount its value, and especially so for any Ptolemaic-era information. And when it comes to the African warriors on it, I am especially cautious considering the Greco-Roman fetish for African warriors on par with their interest in Amazons.


Re: the temple reliefs, I'm not sure from which temple, and I don't know if they are visible online somewhere. What I do know is that Urnamma has seen them personally at the Aswan museum. But he is away at the moment, I think. Perhaps if he swings by he can leave a comment.

I'd love to hear about it, it sounds very interesting.

[paullus]

Re: "Roman" soldiers: Those aren't Roman soldiers. The helmets and shields are all Ptolemaic, attested in other locations, and aside from the thureos shield, unattested among the Roman army.

Re: Africans: I'm not saying we should base our understanding of africans off of the image (though if I remember correctly, that's the shield type that you like so much), I'm saying that the appearance of the exotic animals in the context of the appearance of africans may indicate Alexandrian understandings of the wilder things found upriver.

Anyway, that mosaic is generally irrelevant to the soldier being portrayed in-game. I think we can both agree that the axe is too large. Whether it should be one-handed and accompanied with a shield is a judgement I will refrain from making until I've seen the temple reliefs.

[MeinPanzer]

Re: "Roman" soldiers: Those aren't Roman soldiers. The helmets and shields are all Ptolemaic, attested in other locations, and aside from the thureos shield, unattested among the Roman army.

Hmm, sorry, I have to totally disagree with you there.

1) Helmets: these could really be either 1st C. BC Roman or Hellenistic. The only one that is definitely Hellenistic is the Thracian helmet on the far left of the group, and even so, Thracian helmets sometimes appear in Roman mythological scenes. All others are ambiguous.

2) Shields: The two rectangular cylindrical shields are definitely not Ptolemaic, and if they are attested in other Ptolemaic or even Hellenistic sources I would be very eager to see those sources. The emblem on those shields, a scorpion, is also an emblem common to the Praetorian guard, and so these soldiers are usually identified as such. The others on the ground are of course totally ambiguous because Argive shields can be found in many Roman sources as well as Hellenistic. And which one specifically is "the thureos? I think all the shields beyond the two rectangular ones are just Argive shields represented at various angles.

The wearing of the swords on the right side also reinforces the argument that they are Roman. Still, this argument is largely moot- even if they were Ptolemaic, that portion of the mosaic has been restored because it was heavily damaged (see "The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina: Early Evidence of Egyptian Religion in Italy" by P.G.P. Meyboom). It may thus be that some of the elements of this were originally Ptolemaic, but any credibility that this portion of the mosaic had as a source is pretty much lost.


Re: Africans: I'm not saying we should base our understanding of africans off of the image (though if I remember correctly, that's the shield type that you like so much),

These (the Palestrina shields) look quite a bit different- they look less pointed and more like large, spineless thureoi. The one carried by the rightmost man looks really strange, too- big and almost rectangular.

Strabo, 16.4.17 says:


The Aithiopian Megabari have iron knobs on their
clubs and shields made of rawhide and spears, but
the rest of the Aithiopians have bows and spears.

Agatharchides this, too (apparently Strabo took his passage from Agatharchides). Book 5, 62:


For armament the tribe of Trogodytes called Megabari have circular shields
made of raw ox-hide and clubs tipped with iron knobs, but the others have
bows and spears.

It is suggested that Agatharchides would be familiar with such equipment because they may have served in the Ptolemaic army.

Also, while we're on Agatharchides, have you seen this little passage before? Agatharchides, "On the Erythraean Sea," fragment 20:


For the war against the Aithiopians Ptolemy recruited five hundred cavalrymen fromGreece. To those who were to fight in the front ranks and to be the vanguard - they were a hundred in number - he assigned the following form of
equipment. For he distributed to them and their horses garments of felt, which the natives of the country call kasas, that conceal the whole body
except for the eyes."

Yes, that's right, evidence of a Ptolemaic cataphract, of sorts.


I'm saying that the appearance of the exotic animals in the context of the appearance of africans may indicate Alexandrian understandings of the wilder things found upriver.

Or, rather, the artist's unfamiliarity with these animals may indicate that he has never seen them, or the "wilder" elements of Upper Egypt, himself, and thus his Africans are probably figures based on hearsay.


Anyway, that mosaic is generally irrelevant to the soldier being portrayed in-game. I think we can both agree that the axe is too large. Whether it should be one-handed and accompanied with a shield is a judgement I will refrain from making until I've seen the temple reliefs.

Well, the mosaic could be very relevant to Ptolemaic units if it were a clear Ptolemaic source. Still, I think if you're going to draw from such a source as these terracotta figurines at all, you should draw all-or-none, and not pick and choose which elements to use.

By the way, have you guys seen those fresco fragments mentioned by Sekunda in his Ptolemaic Montvert book from the 2nd C. AD but thought to copy an earlier Ptolemaic source? They show numerous thureophoroi, including ones on warships, guarding a temple, and in combat. Though their dating is shaky, taking one look at them proves that they are Hellenistic, and they are chock full of colour references. Sekunda only shows a few fragments in his Montvert book, but I can provide you with the rest if you don't have them.

[MeinPanzer]

I don't want to post such a large image in my post, so here's the link to that Nubian cavalryman.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/nubian.jpg

And here's another:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/nubian1.jpg

[paullus]

I'll reply better in the morning, after church. Or rather, if someone else could handle it, that'd be good because I have to read and review a 500 page book tomorrow. Quick points:

1) Thanks for the images. The higher-quality image of the cavalryman only further convinces me he is wearing either chain or scail, not padded or quilted armor.

2) I was unfamiliar with the Agatharchides fragment. I'm not sure what felt armor would end up looking like. Odd that they mention spiked clubs and we see axes in the terracottas. Perhaps it is a wealth issue? And I'll have to check to make sure I'm not confusing something I read a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure there's a papyrus talking about Trogodutoi machairaphoroi.

3) Ptolemaic soldiers. First off, aside from the Thracian helm, we also have two of the helmets only other seen on the Sidon stelai, worn by two of the soldiers to the left-center. One may also carry a thureos. There appears to be a thureos on the ground, and two of the men to the right may also carry thureoi, though it is difficult to say, it may be angles, as you've said. The right side sword is nothing significant; the Galatians were using it in the east well before any Romans were, and its copied in the Sidon steles.

4. Other mosaic. Not sure if I know what you're talking about. I'm still waiting on an Interlibrary Loan for the Montvert book. Post away!

[MeinPanzer]

I'll reply better in the morning, after church. Or rather, if someone else could handle it, that'd be good because I have to read and review a 500 page book tomorrow. Quick points:

1) Thanks for the images. The higher-quality image of the cavalryman only further convinces me he is wearing either chain or scail, not padded or quilted armor.

I don't see how it could be scale, personally, but I definitely think it could be mail.


2) I was unfamiliar with the Agatharchides fragment. I'm not sure what felt armor would end up looking like. Odd that they mention spiked clubs and we see axes in the terracottas. Perhaps it is a wealth issue?

I'd imagine it was more of a tribal thing. You have to remember that papyri record Nubians, Aithiopians, and Trogodytes serving in the Ptolemaic military (Launey lists the sources in his appendix, I don't have Rechervhes handy at the moment), so there could be significant differences in armament between different groups. I believe Agatharchides also mentions Aithiopians using poisoned arrows.


And I'll have to check to make sure I'm not confusing something I read a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure there's a papyrus talking about Trogodutoi machairaphoroi.

I'd be interested to see that, and if it's the same as the one(s) listed by Launey.


3) Ptolemaic soldiers. First off, aside from the Thracian helm, we also have two of the helmets only other seen on the Sidon stelai, worn by two of the soldiers to the left-center.

Look at the helmet in the hand of this 1st C. BC Roman officer:

http://www.imagebarn.net/image/69-1168948157967

This type of helmet was by no means exclusively Hellenistic, though it's of course best know from the Sidon stelai.


One may also carry a thureos. There appears to be a thureos on the ground, and two of the men to the right may also carry thureoi, though it is difficult to say, it may be angles, as you've said.

If they carried thureoi, that would by no means exclude them from being Roman.


The right side sword is nothing significant; the Galatians were using it in the east well before any Romans were, and its copied in the Sidon steles.

While the Galatians certainly did wear their swords on the right (from whom the Romans picked up that habit), the Greeks did not. Take another look at those Sidon stelai- every soldier represented wears the sword on the left.


4. Other mosaic. Not sure if I know what you're talking about. I'm still waiting on an Interlibrary Loan for the Montvert book. Post away!

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/fresco1.jpg

The left hand fragment shows a figure in a yellow helmet surmounted by a crimson plume fixed in a white plume holder. He wears a white cuirass decorated by painted black lines with a violet shoulder-guard. A red cloak is shown at the shoulder. The right-hand fragment shows a figure dressed in a blue tunic with a red border around the neck. The cuirass is yellow with red shown on the belt. The helmet and sword-hilt are white. The shield is yellow.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/fresco2.jpg

A total of seven guards are shown standing in front of a building. The outer left fragment shows guards numbers one and two standing in front of the black corner of a building shown in the background between their heads. Guard number three carries a white shield with a pink rim and his helmet has a black plume. Guard number four has a red shield with a white rim with a black central spine.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/fresco3.jpg

The large panel in the upper left shows part of a ship sailing in a sea painted blue-black. On board two soldiers wear belted tunics decorated with stripes. In the next fragment to the right is a feature indicated by a criss-cross pattern, which Hanfmann identified as a canvas deck cabin. In the large central lower fragment a warrior is shown wearing a red tunic decorated with white stripes running vertically down from each shoulder and along the arm-hole of the tunic. His helmet, sword and baldric are also shown in white. The fragment to the right shows a figure wearing a helmet with curving cheek-pieces shown in white.

Those are all the colours I have at the moment, but I am getting a hold of a few more sources which (fingers crossed) have colour pictures. If so, I will post them. Still, from these few descriptions, you can get a good idea of just how colourful Hellenistic troops could be. These are dated to 400 AD (!) but they are thought to be based on a late Hellenistic Alexandrian original, and I definitely think so as well, as none of the 'Classicized' representations of troops in the fifth century AD have details as accurate to the Hellenistic period as this, and the panorama and large-figure style was indicative of the Hellenistic period.