Cargo ship beaches off the Devon coast, washed up cargo looted

[Mikeus Caesar]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42480000/jpg/_42480707_bike_push_afp_203.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6287457.stm

So far they've taken 50 BMW Motorbikes. I say they should go ahead and take everything they can - after all, if the story is right, the ship wouldn't be breaking up if the repairs weren't so shoddy. Should teach the owners a lesson.

And anyway, it's British tradition to nick everything that washes up after a wreck - in 2002, a cargo ship sank off the coast of Cornwall. Over 1000 tonnes of timber washed up on shore, resulting in people coming with their cars from miles around to take some. There were reports of people building children's Wendy houses out of it.

What's your opinion on it all? Would you join in or not? I sure as heck would. Go down there and see if there's anything worth taking. Definitely take one of those barrels of wine.

[yesdachi]

Looted? Phfff, salvage rights.

[Redleg]

Looted? Phfff, salvage rights.

Yes indeed it seems if the ship was left to wash up by the owners or more important the crew and the ship's captain. Those who take times off the beach should not be considered looters.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Yes indeed it seems if the ship was left to wash up by the owners or more important the crew and the ship's captain. Those who take times off the beach should not be considered looters.

Hopefully this will also teach shipping companies to get decent repairs after running their ship aground on tropical corals, rather than getting a cheap fix up in Vietnam.

[Redleg]

After reading the report - what does English law state after one files the form that they salvaged something that washed up on the beach from a wreck?

My understanding of salvage law, is weak, but I understand the law to be basically if the ship was abandoned by the crew, the goods can be salvaged by the first one on the scene. That the ship was deliberately beached might place a constraint on that, but from the article it doesn't sound like the crew had anything to do with the beaching, just the salvage crew.

Does English law cover the prospect that the salvage crew loses control of the wreck, and therefor any salvagable material that leaves the ship is no longer under the salvage rights of that crew?

[InsaneApache]

I believe that anything found on the beach between the high water mark and the low water mark belongs to the Crown.

Looters should be prosecuted.

Wouldn't mind a brand spanking beemer 750 for meself though :laugh4:

[King Henry V]

The militia should be called in to deal with this disgraceful affront to the Crown's authority. Shoot the looters!

Oh dear, it seems as though I watched too many episodes of Poldark when staying with my grandparents.:dizzy2:

[English assassin]

After reading the report - what does English law state after one files the form that they salvaged something that washed up on the beach from a wreck?


We are parties to the International Convention on Salvage, 1989, incorpiorated into UK law by the Merchant shipping act 1995. Which reads as relevant:


Art 13

1
Salvage operations which have had a useful result give right to a reward.
2
Except as otherwise provided, no payment is due under this Convention if the salvage operations have had no useful result

art 15

Article 15
Apportionment between salvors
1
The apportionment of a reward under article 13 between salvors shall be made on the basis of the criteria contained in that article.

s.229 of the Act appoints the high court to make apportionment.

So I guess they total up the value of all the goods salvaged, and the ship, if they can refloat her, ascribe the salvage value and then divvy it up. I shouldn't think the blokes with one beemer are going to get much.

[yesdachi]

The militia should be called in to deal with this disgraceful affront to the Crown's authority. Shoot the looters!

Oh dear, it seems as though I watched too many episodes of Poldark when staying with my grandparents.:dizzy2:
And if coincidentally the militia happens to be riding new BMW’s after they have dealt with the situation, so be it. ~D

[Redleg]

We are parties to the International Convention on Salvage, 1989, incorpiorated into UK law by the Merchant shipping act 1995. Which reads as relevant:



s.229 of the Act appoints the high court to make apportionment.

So I guess they total up the value of all the goods salvaged, and the ship, if they can refloat her, ascribe the salvage value and then divvy it up. I shouldn't think the blokes with one beemer are going to get much.

So basically if someone didn't take a picture of you carrying off stuff from the beach - one does not have any reason other then obeying the law to actually report the salvage.

Does England make a habit of prosecuting those who don't file?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Some interesting ethics here.

Regardless of the law, why do some think it is permissible to steal kit that clearly belongs to someone else?

:inquisitive:

[yesdachi]

It’s not steeling if it has been abandoned. I consider this a public service of beach cleaning. Think of how crappy the place would look if these conscientious citizens weren’t there to help pick up the hazardous mess, what if a water foul were to get caught in the parts of one of those bikes or if one of those barrels were to start leaking, the environmental repercussions could be monumental. Thank you fair citizens for your selfless contribution to society.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Law and custom of the sea has long held that a derelict in international waters is fair game for salvage by any.

Once aground the laws of the country upon which it is grounded take precedence.


I have read that such salvage/looting has long been an English coastal tradition. But, then again so was barratry in some places -- surely a purely "traditional" stance here is a bit off?

[King Henry V]

Some interesting ethics here.

Regardless of the law, why do some think it is permissible to steal kit that clearly belongs to someone else?

:inquisitive:
But it be 'e gift of 'e sea!

[ZombieFriedNuts]

Its all legal as long as you fill in the right form within the number of days permitted? Dam I with I was in Devon now, But where do you get the right form from.

[Tribesman]

What's your opinion on it all? Would you join in or not? I sure as heck would.
Most certainly would , and most defintely did .
I struck lucky in '97 in being on the Scillies when a containership struck unlucky and went down .
All sorts of goodies to be had , and all legal too .:2thumbsup:

[Watchman]

Heh. So apparently modern law accepts what coastal populaces have since men first began using boats regarded as their natural and inalienable right - looting anything that washes ashore, no questions asked. Mind you, back in them olden days this was applied to people too; the Bayeux Tapestry has a funny bit early on when Harold, dispatched on a diplomatic mission to the continent, is shipwrecked and gets promptly seized by the local lord and held for ransom...

At least these days the damn fishermen don't actively assist the ships in running aground. The Swedish crown was still trying to suppress that sort of enterpreneurship in the Baltic as late as 1700s or so.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Sounds dishonest to me, especially keeping something as valuable as a brand new BMW motorbike. What are the forms for, collecting taxes on the items?

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

Well to start with, all cargo ships have enormous insurance to cover these sorts of things, and all cargo on it will be insured as well, so anything missed/destroyed or lost will be replaced by the underwriter of the insurance.

the government will end up paying for the immediate clean up not the company in Vietnam, so if the people get some loot, then all good and well.

if i had the choice of taking a bmw or not, id get my brother down there and take 2 of the buggers. If the company was responsible and diligent then there would be nothing to wash up on the beaches, the environment would be better off....

[Watchman]

You know, I get the feeling this thread serves as a very good demonstrator of the sentiments the coastal looters of them olden times must as well have had... :inquisitive:

In its own way it is reassuring how some things don't change. ~;p

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well I'm not looting but my dad may go and get himself a new bike. Or maybe not, not sure how he feels about this as a merchant seaman.

Anything up the high water mark traditionally belongs to the Crown because that part of the beach belongs to the Crown. In reality if it washes up people will take it home. I doubt there will be any prosecutions. Especially as all the local Bobbies will have taken two bikes and sold one.

[Tribesman]

Sounds dishonest to me, especially keeping something as valuable as a brand new BMW motorbike.
Nope as long as you fill in the form it is perfectly honest legitimate work .


What are the forms for, collecting taxes on the items?

nope the forms are to inform the original owner that you have found their lost property .
If they wish to reclaim their property then they pay you a finders fee .
If they do not wish to pay you and reclaim it then it is yours to keep .

[Papewaio]

Finders Fee:
Due to the cliff we are charging 1 Ducati for your BMW?

Do you wish to pay?

[KukriKhan]

We are parties to the International Convention on Salvage, 1989, incorpiorated into UK law by the Merchant shipping act 1995. Which reads as relevant:

...

s.229 of the Act appoints the high court to make apportionment.

So I guess they total up the value of all the goods salvaged, and the ship, if they can refloat her, ascribe the salvage value and then divvy it up. I shouldn't think the blokes with one beemer are going to get much.

Our English Assassin to the fore, yet again! :2thumbsup:

So... piracy is a matter of geography, to Backroom Org-istas?

[Mooks]

If you found a dollar (or pound) on the ground would you keep it? Hell ya you would. Just like if you found 1000 dollars on the beach...or a brand new 4 wheeler.

[English assassin]

So basically if someone didn't take a picture of you carrying off stuff from the beach - one does not have any reason other then obeying the law to actually report the salvage.

Does England make a habit of prosecuting those who don't file?

No idea, but no (legal) reason why you shouldn't that I can see. The ingredients of theft all seem to be there, removal of anothers property, intent permanently to deprive, dishonesty. Practically it might be a pain to process all the cases. I see they have now done the sensible thing and closed the beach, which strikes me as a lot better than trying to prosecute the riders of all new BMWs in Devon...:yes:


Our English Assassin to the fore, yet again!

So as not to take undeserved credit, it was Lexis-nexis to the fore ... my personal knowledge of wet shipping law is a big fat zero :beam:

[Idaho]

It's just down the road from me, but haven't managed to get down there. Oh a new BMW motorbike would be sweeeeet....

I say it's fair dibs. If you don't want to lose your cargo, don't let your ships crumble apart and pollute our coast.

[macsen rufus]

They're all looting, thieving, vultures as far as I can see. It's not just "stuff found on the beach" - half of it is from containers that have been jimmied open. The stuff DOESN'T belong to the shipping company, so even if the ship was poorly maintained why should the actual owners of the cargo bear the cost of this thieving? Some of it is personal effects of individuals who certainly don't deserve to be ripped off.

If you file a droit with the receiver of wrecks you may get leave to hold the items, but often only until such time as they can be collected from you. Finder's fees are not automatic, and probably not a right, especially if you had to crack open a shipping container to "find" the item.

Far from doing a "beach clean up" like some have suggested, they're making even more of a mess by spilling stuff out of containers that had previously been intact

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

This article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6289371.stm) paints the scavengers in a somewhat different light.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Thanks for the article, BKS. My faith in the British justice system has been restored.
Ouestions & things to ponder:

1) I take it that to legally operate a motorbike in Britain, one must register and have accident insurance. All motor vehicles have registration numbers that are also on the Title of Ownership, so if one gets caught operating an unregistered, uninsured bike, and the registration number comes up as one of these "salvaged"~:rolleyes: ones...well, better you than me.

2) The misconception that it's insured, so no loss to me. Do you pay for insurance? The euphemism, "a rising tide lifts all ships" also applies to rising insurance rates. Any huge losses for claims on insurers gets passed along as increases paid for insurance premiums. We all pay.

3) Attempting to return large sums of found money is not a dilemna for some. I'm not talking about the fiver you find in the washer at a community laundry-mat. The unfortunate person who loses hundreds, maybe thousands of $ is probably the one person who can afford it the least. The pensioner, the family living from paycheck to paycheck, hand to mouth, the ones without a bank account or credit card are the ones likely to lose that much cash. Happens during the Christmas shopping season all the time. I might want the money, but they need it more than I. My conscious tells me to turn it in.

4) From the pictures in the articles I haven't noticed anyone wearing burberry, perhaps they are undercover? Should this incident become one of the questions in the poll questionaire, "How Chavvy are you?"~;)

[Idaho]

I find stories like this life afirming. It's good to know that in this fast moving world, us Devonians pay enough homage to our traditions and customs. And gathering en masse to thieve from scuppered ships is as valued a part of those customs as pasties and cider.

[Idaho]

The unfortunate person who loses hundreds, maybe thousands of $ is probably the one person who can afford it the least. The pensioner, the family living from paycheck to paycheck, hand to mouth, the ones without a bank account or credit card are the ones likely to lose that much cash. Happens during the Christmas shopping season all the time. I might want the money, but they need it more than I. My conscious tells me to turn it in.
And yet you fully support a capitalist system which day in day out, kicks people out of houses when they are late on their rent, reduces pensions for old people who have worked and paid for their whole lives, makes thousands redundant in order to increase shareholder value 0.5%, charges the poorest and most desperate the highest interest rates for loans.

[Hosakawa Tito]

So, of course, all the real and percieved injustices of life justify taking things that do not belong to you. Whatever holds your socks up.:shrug:

[lars573]

I'd have been down there in a second. Were I in Britain. But there is a line to be drawn between salvage and looting. One would draw that line with bolt cutters. :beam:

[macsen rufus]

Following on the "finding a fiver in the street" analogy.

If I find a fiver blowing along the street without an obvious owner, then, sure I'll catch it and reintroduce it to captivity :beam:

If I see someone drop a fiver, I'll say "You dropped a fiver....."

If I find a wallet someone's dropped, I'll check for an address and return it / hand it in at a police station (or bank if it has credit cards).

If I see a fiver in someone's pocket I leave it there, and this is the closest match to the stuff that's in shipping containers on the beach.

And Hosakawa has but the finger on the button with those bikes. Get one on the road and you'll be in trouble :2thumbsup:

[Tribesman]

And Hosakawa has but the finger on the button with those bikes. Get one on the road and you'll be in trouble
Nope , since if if you fill in the salvage form , wait the required time period to see if you gain legal title instead of a reward and........its yours.
All you have to do then is to apply to have the vehicle registered and get a licence plate issued .

Though on to another of Hosahawas points .

2) The misconception that it's insured, so no loss to me. Do you pay for insurance? The euphemism, "a rising tide lifts all ships" also applies to rising insurance rates. Any huge losses for claims on insurers gets passed along as increases paid for insurance premiums. We all pay.

Have you any idea how little it costs to insure a container for shipment by sea (regardless of value of contents) ? Have you any idea how many are lost yearly from ships in the waters around western europe every year (not counting ships sinking) ?

[King Henry V]

The ship's owners should not have used a vessel in such a shoddy state of repair. It has damaged the environment, and if they have to hand over large armount of cash to the cargo's owners because of their irresponsability, tant pis. :shrug:
It will certainly teach them not to cut corners in future.

[Idaho]

So, of course, all the real and percieved injustices of life justify taking things that do not belong to you. Whatever holds your socks up.:shrug:
I'm saying that if injustice is what is really bothering you, then why pick on such a piffling example when there are much greater rip offs in the world?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'm saying that if injustice is what is really bothering you, then why pick on such a piffling example when there are much greater rip offs in the world?

Probably because if we had a world where individuals didn't find excuses for theft because it's only piffling, the more powerful might not find excuses for stealing from the poor and disenfranchised because they're only piffling.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Thank you, BG :bow: . I only have total control over my own actions, and as a parent and member of my community, feel it is my duty and obligation to set the example for what I believe is right, no matter how small that action may be compared to the larger conflicts/conundrums of life. I'm far from perfect, and am most certainly not always right, but I strive to do my best.

As the line to a song goes, "I don't want nothing from nobody, if I can't get it on my own." It's just the way I was raised, I guess. Irregardless of the legality of the "salvage laws" put forth by some, and the article presented by BKS seems to be in conflict with that interpretation, this situation seems like stealing to me.

If my car broke down on a road in Devonshire, and I had to leave it unattended for awhile to get help, could someone legally "salvage" it? Would that be right?

[Tribesman]

If my car broke down on a road in Devonshire, and I had to leave it unattended for awhile to get help, could someone legally "salvage" it? Would that be right?
Yep , though there are different provisions depending on where it was or how long you had left it .
Plus you would have to pay them for taking it , and for storing it , and if you didn't pay up within a certain time then your car would become their car .

[Hosakawa Tito]

Yep , though there are different provisions depending on where it was or how long you had left it .
Plus you would have to pay them for taking it , and for storing it , and if you didn't pay up within a certain time then your car would become their car .

I guess I'll have to invest in an ANTI-SALVAGE DEVICE. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU2oxrerkN8)

[Slyspy]

They're all looting, thieving, vultures as far as I can see. It's not just "stuff found on the beach" - half of it is from containers that have been jimmied open. The stuff DOESN'T belong to the shipping company, so even if the ship was poorly maintained why should the actual owners of the cargo bear the cost of this thieving? Some of it is personal effects of individuals who certainly don't deserve to be ripped off.

If you file a droit with the receiver of wrecks you may get leave to hold the items, but often only until such time as they can be collected from you. Finder's fees are not automatic, and probably not a right, especially if you had to crack open a shipping container to "find" the item.

Far from doing a "beach clean up" like some have suggested, they're making even more of a mess by spilling stuff out of containers that had previously been intact

Of course, strictly speaking, if you had a suitable vehicle you could simply take the whole container as salvage. The state of the container has no impact on the status of the goods therein. You may need more than one form though.

I thought it amusing that the police on site were there primarily to break up fights between the salvagers and to hand out the necessary forms!

[Dave1984]

Of course, strictly speaking, if you had a suitable vehicle you could simply take the whole container as salvage. The state of the container has no impact on the status of the goods therein. You may need more than one form though.

I thought it amusing that the police on site were there primarily to break up fights between the salvagers and to hand out the necessary forms!


They're also now there to distinguish between the goods washed ashore that were originally intended for sale (legally salvageable under law) and private possessions (still legally the property of the original owners, whatever happens), and now they say that they are going to be following up illegal looters and prosecuting them.

[lars573]

If my car broke down on a road in Devonshire, and I had to leave it unattended for awhile to get help, could someone legally "salvage" it? Would that be right?
Bad analogy. More like if you happened to see a case of coke fall out of a coke truck and helped yourself to some.

[Papewaio]

And yet you fully support a capitalist system which day in day out, kicks people out of houses when they are late on their rent, reduces pensions for old people who have worked and paid for their whole lives, makes thousands redundant in order to increase shareholder value 0.5%, charges the poorest and most desperate the highest interest rates for loans.

So two wrongs make a right?


charges the poorest and most desperate the highest interest rates for loans.

Which comes first?

I have to say that seeing a small portion of the people who live on welfare, at government provided housing (closer to work then were I can afford to live), spending their time between bottle shops and betting agencies doesn't really endear me to the idea that they are in poverty for any reason other then themselves.

I've been made redundant 3 times. Twice as a contractor/probation (working in gold exploration, 90% of the industry laid off... the other time working in IT for a stockbrocker and 6 weeks into my 3 months probation the NASDAQ crashed) and as such got zero payouts.

I have been on welfare and have managed to get off it within months even under high unemployment. It is a choice to be long term poor. To spend up large on alcohol, cigarettes, TV and cable yet not manage to go to a library or essentials for ones kids.

Ultimately there is a safety net. But quite a few spend their time playing around on the net rather then working on getting themselves and their kids out of it.

Those I don't feel sorry for. I do have more time for the larger majority who just can't get it together and have a lack of role models. My Dad is my role model, that for me is a huge advantage.

[Idaho]

So two wrongs make a right?



Which comes first?

I have to say that seeing a small portion of the people who live on welfare, at government provided housing (closer to work then were I can afford to live), spending their time between bottle shops and betting agencies doesn't really endear me to the idea that they are in poverty for any reason other then themselves.

I've been made redundant 3 times. Twice as a contractor/probation (working in gold exploration, 90% of the industry laid off... the other time working in IT for a stockbrocker and 6 weeks into my 3 months probation the NASDAQ crashed) and as such got zero payouts.

I have been on welfare and have managed to get off it within months even under high unemployment. It is a choice to be long term poor. To spend up large on alcohol, cigarettes, TV and cable yet not manage to go to a library or essentials for ones kids.

Ultimately there is a safety net. But quite a few spend their time playing around on the net rather then working on getting themselves and their kids out of it.

Those I don't feel sorry for. I do have more time for the larger majority who just can't get it together and have a lack of role models. My Dad is my role model, that for me is a huge advantage.

And there encapsulates the human problem. Man with academic qualifications, work experience, good long term prospects and self belief finds another job and then has no sympathy for those with no qualifications, prospects, experience or self belief. You know that within a year or so you will be back on the salary ladder drawing in good money. Those people at the bookies and bottle shop know that after 10 years the best they can hope for is to go slightly beyond a sh*t low paying job as far as supervising others doing sh*t low paying jobs.

All of which is irrelevant. Those people between the bookies and bottle shop are a tiny minority of this world. The way some people obsess about them you would think they had any economic or political impact. More significantly are the vast majority of people who do work and get paid a pittance. I am talking about those people. The people who do the majority of the hard graft but get a minority of the wealth from it.

[Duke Malcolm]

The ship's owners should not have used a vessel in such a shoddy state of repair. It has damaged the environment, and if they have to hand over large armount of cash to the cargo's owners because of their irresponsability, tant pis. :shrug:
It will certainly teach them not to cut corners in future.

Indeed. My brother was on this ship a year or so ago as a Cadet Deck Officer, and a crack appeared in the hull whilst sailing. The ship had to be tipped to one side and a chap was flung over the side to weld it up...

[English assassin]

The people who do the majority of the hard graft but get a minority of the wealth from it.

Clearly wildly off topic, but have you got any figures for this in the UK? Obviously we are talking about income here, not capital.

A very quick look at ONS gave me this:


The results of the 2006 ASHE show that median weekly pay for full-time employees in the UK grew by 3.7 per cent in April 2006 to reach £447. Median earnings of full-time male employees was £487 per week in April 2006; for women the median was £387

The top 10 per cent of the earnings distribution earned more than £886 per week, while the bottom 10 per cent earned less than £244. Between April 2005 and 2006 the distribution of gross weekly pay widened, with a 3.7 per cent increase at the bottom decile, and a 4.2 per cent increase at the top decile.

Its a matter of impression I suppose, but if the top decile are earning 2X median wage and up, and the bottom decile c.1/2 median wage, (and so 80% are somewhere between half and twice median wage), I think its overstating the case to say that "a majority" are doing hard graft but getting "a minority" of the wealth. In fact, that distribution looks pretty comfortable to me, there's enough difference to make working hard and earing more attractive, but not enough to suggest real divisions.

There's more, but its detail:

Median gross weekly earnings for full-time employees were highest for the 40-49 year-olds at £508 for this age group. Male employees reached their highest earnings in this age group at £564, whereas women reached their highest earnings in the 30-39 age group at £449. Earnings increased until employees reached these age groups and steadily decreased thereafter.

Median full-time weekly earnings in London were £572, significantly higher than in other regions, where they ranged from £399 in the North East to £470 in the South East.

The occupations with the highest earnings in 2006 were ‘Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of £1,038 a week), followed by ‘Corporate managers’ (£688) and ‘Science and technology professionals’ (£662). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were ‘Sales occupations’, at £259 a week.

The monetary difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£488 per week in April 2006) and the private sector (£430 per week) has narrowed over the year to April 2006, following annual increases of 2.5 per cent and 4.5 per cent respectively.

Rory will be gutted to see that medics have the higest earnings won't he? And note once again that our selfless public servants are in fact scarfing up a higher median wage that the private sector. And don't even start me on pensions.

[Slyspy]

If my car broke down on a road in Devonshire, and I had to leave it unattended for awhile to get help, could someone legally "salvage" it? Would that be right?

No, because your car isn't the cargo from a wrecked ship. Of course if you left it too long or in a dangerous place eventually the authorities would send a tow truck to take it away. Then you would have to pay to get it back.

[Tribesman]

Of course, strictly speaking, if you had a suitable vehicle you could simply take the whole container as salvage.
I saw some funny ones , the official salvers were finally on location but hadn't got all their equipment over from Norway .
They spent two days trying to get one container onshore from a shallow bay .
After all the effort they found upon opening that it contained bales of waterlogged , oil contaminated tobacco .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Idaho]

Median earnings of full-time male employees was £487 per week in April 2006; for women the median was £387

Ok - so working on a clumsy figure. Lets say that each household, on average, earns 1.5 average wages. So 487+387/4*3= 655 * 4.2 (to get a month's income) is £2753. Lets be very generous and only tax that at 20% - leaving £2202.

The average mortgage (according to Moneynet.co.uk - random choice) is £139,982. Borrowing that over 20 years at 5.5% = £934 leaving £1268.

The average household credit is £8,765 which at credit card rates costs about £120 a month leaving £1148 (Creditaction)

The average council tax is close to £100 a month leaving £1048 (Govt figures)

The average water rates is £25 a month leaving £1023 (OFWAT)

The average fuel bills are £65 leaving £958 (Times - 2005 figures)

The average car tax and insurance is £90 leaving £868 (AA)

So without even touching on food shopping bills, clothing, school expenses, holidays, household necessities, repairs, prescription costs, travel fares, buying a car, etc, etc, for an average family of 4 you are left with just over £50 per person per week. Hardly living large. And this is average. So half the people in the uk are living on a lot less.

And how well do you think these average folk are going to cope with a rise in interest rates? How about a minor recession? Not looking so rosy now eh?


Rory will be gutted to see that medics have the higest earnings won't he? And note once again that our selfless public servants are in fact scarfing up a higher median wage that the private sector. And don't even start me on pensions.

:laugh4: Yeah but what you fail to take into account is that all Rory's mates work in the city and all got 5 figure bonuses at christmas and he has to listen to their bragging round the dinner party table each weekend.

[Papewaio]

And there encapsulates the human problem. Man with academic qualifications, work experience, good long term prospects and self belief finds another job and then has no sympathy for those with no qualifications, prospects, experience or self belief. You know that within a year or so you will be back on the salary ladder drawing in good money. Those people at the bookies and bottle shop know that after 10 years the best they can hope for is to go slightly beyond a sh*t low paying job as far as supervising others doing sh*t low paying jobs.

All of which is irrelevant. Those people between the bookies and bottle shop are a tiny minority of this world. The way some people obsess about them you would think they had any economic or political impact. More significantly are the vast majority of people who do work and get paid a pittance. I am talking about those people. The people who do the majority of the hard graft but get a minority of the wealth from it.

I think I already stated that and with some sympathy for the majority of the poor:

"I have to say that seeing a small portion of the people who live on welfare, at government provided housing (closer to work then were I can afford to live), spending their time between bottle shops and betting agencies doesn't really endear me to the idea that they are in poverty for any reason other then themselves.

...

Ultimately there is a safety net. But quite a few spend their time playing around on the net rather then working on getting themselves and their kids out of it.

Those I don't feel sorry for. I do have more time for the larger majority who just can't get it together and have a lack of role models. My Dad is my role model, that for me is a huge advantage."

Hmm, so I state that I do have time for the larger majority of poor who can't get it together and that I do have a huge advantage in having such a positive role model.

What I don't have time for is people who are in a better position shirking their responsibilities as role models and leaders.

[King Henry V]

Following on the "finding a fiver in the street" analogy.

If I find a fiver blowing along the street without an obvious owner, then, sure I'll catch it and reintroduce it to captivity :beam:

If I see someone drop a fiver, I'll say "You dropped a fiver....."

If I find a wallet someone's dropped, I'll check for an address and return it / hand it in at a police station (or bank if it has credit cards).

If I see a fiver in someone's pocket I leave it there, and this is the closest match to the stuff that's in shipping containers on the beach.

And Hosakawa has but the finger on the button with those bikes. Get one on the road and you'll be in trouble :2thumbsup:

If I dump my bags of rubbish on your lawn and lose my gold watch in the process, would you run up to me afterwards and say, "Kind sir, you have dropped your watch!"?

[macsen rufus]

If you dump rubbish on my lawn, you get a kick up the rear end, and :furious3: your gold watch, cos you're a freebootin' lowlife. (Not you personally ~D , just as defined by the behaviour you posit....)