View Full Version : Knights of the Old Republic & Jedi Knight
Well, I remember playing KotOR II and I had great fun with it, though the game wasn't perfect. Never played KotOR I, 'cause the thing would just crash on me back then. I'll have to try it out sometime again.
But I also seem to remember a game site saying there was gonna be a KotOR III, or maybe even a developer saying there'll be a KotOR III. Now, I'm not sure of it, and I can't find any information 'bout it. Maybe my memory plays tricks with me.
Anyhow, well, lemme just put it like this: I WANT A KOTOR III!
But wait, there's more I'd like to tell ye.
The Jedi Knight series is also one of the few Star Wars game series I've actually enjoyed playing. The (controls an') gameplay are just exactly how I like it in these games, which are of great caliber (imo).
But with this one there's also no news or anything of it. Is they dead?
And now my idea. You know what would be really great? A mixture of these two's game styles: to play an RPG, with a great story, great characters, etc., BUT with the controls of Jedi Knight, of course a bit tweaked and mixed if necessary.
This would really make the ultimate SW game for me. I like KotOR, but wouldn't it be a lot better if you could actually control it in more detail(, and therewith I mean "action-orientated" and personal, and with more flow)?
Bioware has said KOTOR isn't dead to them. But consider that they have 4 games in the pipe between them and Obsidian. Between the two you have Mass effect, Jade Empire (a special edition is coming to the PC), A Baldur Gate-esque new game (who's name escapes me), and NWN2. These are all in development or released. Certainly KOTOR could be in planning stages but Bioware proper's resources are maxed out. Between JE:SE and Mass Effect (which is a trilogy with episodic content between the full versions) and the new BG-type-thing. Obsidian is doing NWN2. They are much smaller than Bioware too. So KOTOR3 is probably either Obsidians second project or back burnered.
I heard from a friend, who is a KOTOR fanatic that there will be a KOTOR 3 for xbox 360
The Jedi Knight Games are dead, I think, they are in the "classics" section of the lucasarts website, along with a few other oldies. Shame, it was a great series.
Well, I remember playing KotOR II and I had great fun with it, though the game wasn't perfect. Never played KotOR I, 'cause the thing would just crash on me back then. I'll have to try it out sometime again.
Do try it out. I can't imagine a Kotor 3 would be better than Kotor 1. I take your point about lack of control - the combat was generally just ok. But the story and the characters were top notch.
TevashSzat
01-24-2007, 03:01
The crashes in KOTOR I happened to me too during area transitions, but just remember to quicksave before an area transition and just reload the gamefile once it crashes since it has also worked for me the second sign. The first KOTOR is so much better than the second one though the plot twist at the end isn't that surprising
Slartibardfast
01-24-2007, 04:50
....A Baldur Gate-esque new game (who's name escapes me)....
"Dragon Age" non D20 system that can alternate between a KOTOR & BG camera perspective which looks promising.
If playing KOTOR 1 or 2 again check out,
http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=739c657f716ad0b977caa558b5ca3&f=645
for some decent mods for both, though care is needed as some mods conflict with others leading to crashes.
I recommend the Holowan Labs plug ins (mod compilations) for both games especially for KOTOR 2 which includes one mod that maxes all stats which will open several influence based dialogue trees for all crew members that you tend to miss otherwise.
If you need a mod to get all the dialogue options you don't know how to play KOTOR.
I liked KOTOR II more than the first one...what II lacked was polish as the end was clearly a mishmash of half-thought-out ideas.
If you need a mod to get all the dialogue options you don't know how to play KOTOR.
I'm not sure that's fair. The influence system of Kotor2 made it pretty inevitable you missed a lot of dialogue. With only two others in your party, you often did not get a chance to raise influence with those left behind. And the triggers for influence rises were not obvious, although sometimes rather cool (listening to the force in Nar Shadaa (sp?) was rather neat).
I was not a great fan of the influence system for these reasons, but it did give the game a feeling of depth. You were only glimpsing part of the story, which made it feel larger and more substantial. Ironically, I found some of the incompleteness towards the end added to that feeling.
I liked KOTOR II more than the first one...
Me too, although it is a close run thing - they were both excellent. The combat in kotor2 was probably set to be a little too easy, but I liked the darker atmosphere. kotor1 had the stronger central story arc, but weaker sideplots and detours. I like the analogy that kotor1=Star Wars & kotor2=Empire Strikes back.
I'm not sure that's fair. The influence system of Kotor2 made it pretty inevitable you missed a lot of dialogue. With only two others in your party, you often did not get a chance to raise influence with those left behind. And the triggers for influence rises were not obvious, although sometimes rather cool (listening to the force in Nar Shadaa (sp?) was rather neat).
I was not a great fan of the influence system for these reasons, but it did give the game a feeling of depth. You were only glimpsing part of the story, which made it feel larger and more substantial. Ironically, I found some of the incompleteness towards the end added to that feeling.
The game has been out long enough now that anyway to gain influence is in strategy guides. Go over to GameFAQ's you'll find them most enlightening. The only influence based trick I've never pulled was breaking via the dark side. I heard tell of one evil SOB breaking Hannharr via mental trickery. And the strong inference that you can make the force sensitives amoung your companions fall the the dark side, IF you know what your doing. Which I don't. :sweatdrop: But lightside influence I've got to a science. I can turn Mira, Atton, Handmaiden, and Disciple into Jedi. Never managed it with Bao-Dur. To get influence with him you have to include him your party (and protect the innnocent), he sucks in combat.
And now my idea. You know what would be really great? A mixture of these two's game styles: to play an RPG, with a great story, great characters, etc., BUT with the controls of Jedi Knight, of course a bit tweaked and mixed if necessary.
Maybe you will like Deus ex:invisible war, that is pretty much what you are describing here. I know it gets little love from the community but I really enjoyed it.
Maybe you will like Deus ex:invisible war, that is pretty much what you are describing here. I know it gets little love from the community but I really enjoyed it.
Hmm, I've heard of that before. Seems it was highly respected by many as I recall. Thanks for the tip :bow:
Well, about SW, I'll just have to be patient till a new KotOR comes out then.
*waits*
I want it now!! :wall: :laugh4:
Hey wait until Jade empire Comes out for PC. It's not dis-similar form KOTOR. Just Chinese mythology instead of Star Wars.
Hey wait until Jade empire Comes out for PC. It's not dis-similar form KOTOR. Just Chinese mythology instead of Star Wars.
Heyyy, when I checked it out I was actually quite impressed. Sounds like a damn good game and-- CHINESE stuff, hah! Great, great. I will certainly check this out :bow: What did I say? No, I think I'm gonna preorder it even if possible! Gonna get it as soon as it's out!
It even has John Cleese as a European whom you get into a battle of wits with, then fisticuffs. You have to avoid his blunderbuss which kills you dead in one shot.
And ofcourse Death's Hand
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/reviews/918890_20040421_screen005.jpg
His origin is more creepy than Darth Malak or Darth Sion.
Hey wait until Jade empire Comes out for PC.
Talking about Jade empire for PC. Is there already a release date?
Bioware's site says Febuary '07. No specific day. But I have the Xbox special edition. I'm on the final battle with Death's hand. He's every bit as tough as he looks.
Gamespot says 26th of February (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/jadeempire/index.html?q=jade%20empire).
Death's Hand looks like a tough son of a b*tch! :laugh4:
TevashSzat
01-28-2007, 01:04
Didn't remember Jade Empire getting extreemely good reviews when it came out on the Xbox though
Big King Sanctaphrax
01-28-2007, 01:31
IGN gave it 9.9.
TevashSzat
01-28-2007, 15:10
i suppose i might have gotten some good reviews, but it didnt have as much buzz as kotor
Their is a perfectly good reason for that. KOTOR has Star Wars in the title. Or will move half million units based on the name Star Wars alone, without regrads to quality.
Slartibardfast
01-29-2007, 13:09
I'm not sure that's fair. The influence system of Kotor2 made it pretty inevitable you missed a lot of dialogue.
Thanks for the show of support Econ21.
[personal attack removed]
Thanks though lars573 for the tip about Jade Empire . Had not herd it was coming to PC and am now very keen to play it.
[another personal attack removed]
Personal attacks like that will not be tolerated here. You might want to think on the irony of accusing someone of being purile, and then hammering them with a series of immature insults. Then meditate on the sense of dismissing someone's opinion in such a way, then thanking them for their game recommendation, before attacking again. Froggy.
TevashSzat
01-30-2007, 02:21
By the time that jade empire was coming out, bioware has basically become pretty well known due to its success with KOTOR so the game should have sold more than normal. Granted it wont sell more than KOTOR since it isnt star wars, but it should have sold more games than i expected
Slartibardfast
01-30-2007, 03:13
If you need a mod to get all the dialogue options you don't know how to play KOTOR.
Lets see, like most CRPG's you point and click to kill or talk, and then point and click to choose the available options to kill or talk.
Doesn't seem to require that much intelligence.
Slartibardfast
01-30-2007, 03:41
Yes Froggy, having been the person using irony I'm aware of how ironic it is.
I was also brought up to believe that attacking some ones intelligence or lack thereof is a personal attack.
Yes Froggy, having been the person using irony I'm aware of how ironic it is.
I was also brought up to believe that attacking some ones intelligence or lack thereof is a personal attack.
:rolleyes: Ignorace=/=lack of intellignece.
frogbeastegg
01-30-2007, 20:34
Slartibardfast, if you know better then kindly demonstrate it.
lars573, keep your cool.
I kept it. But there is a learning curve to most RPG's. KOTOR is no different. I had a completely buggered first character in both KOTOR games.
Let alone the games themselves were "buggered" in terms of stability if I remember correctly :laugh4:
Ah, I remember my first character in KotOR II. I tried to make 'im a good guy, but halfway through the game I thought "Ah, what the heck! Let's go for the dark side, eh? Just this one time."
But the learning curve in KotOR, 'tis really something. With that same first character I was just messed up, and I hardly knew what I was doing.
TevashSzat
01-31-2007, 00:51
You eventually realize that KOTOR is extremely easy. I have beat it on hard with just one character that was on the light side without reloading or dieing once. The beginning on Tarsis is the hardest part because after that, everything becomes so easy
You eventually realize that KOTOR is extremely easy.
KOTOR1 was rather easy, although it probably depends on playstyle. Unless desperate, I tended to avoid grenades, "drugs" (or whatever the potions were) and shields - they all seemed rather "un-Star Wars" - so I found the combat ok most of the time. A Sith commander at the end of the first planet and the final boss fight were memorable. The Sandpeople often kicked my butt and the whole endgame rampage through hordes of Sith was also pitched at about the right level for me.
KOTOR2 was even easier[1]. I was surprised, as the Icewind Dale games I associate with some of the design team had remarkably well balanced combat. There did not seem to be enough high level opponents. I only remember being seriously pressed once - by some dark Jedi or something in a temple on that moon. After I finished the game, I restarted on hard difficulty but burnt out before seeing if that improved things much.
[1]Apart from some of the sidegames - pod racing. :wall:
Big King Sanctaphrax
01-31-2007, 02:13
Yep, the only half-way tricky bit in KOTOR 2 was the Sith temple on Dxun.
You could always turn the difficulty up, though.
The most pressing situation I had in KotOR II was at the end when you fight you-know-who. I gotta admit, it ain't a difficult game, but for newcomers it might be a bit overwhelming, though the basics can be learnt fast.
Let alone the games themselves were "buggered" in terms of stability if I remember correctly :laugh4:
Ah, I remember my first character in KotOR II. I tried to make 'im a good guy, but halfway through the game I thought "Ah, what the heck! Let's go for the dark side, eh? Just this one time."
But the learning curve in KotOR, 'tis really something. With that same first character I was just messed up, and I hardly knew what I was doing.
Xbox FTW. :beam: No crashing (almost :skull: ). I remember controllers being thrown when I realized the game topped out at level 20 and I'd wasted 12 on being a soldier.
KOTOR2 was even easier[1]. I was surprised, as the Icewind Dale games I associate with some of the design team had remarkably well balanced combat. There did not seem to be enough high level opponents. I only remember being seriously pressed once - by some dark Jedi or something in a temple on that moon. After I finished the game, I restarted on hard difficulty but burnt out before seeing if that improved things much.
Dxun tomb of dark Jedi first king of Onderon guy. I just run and plant mines around the pool.
TevashSzat
01-31-2007, 04:39
For the original it would have been nice to have multiple endings that varied depending on multiple decisions you would have had to make through the game instead of the two endings that you would decide in one simple conversation. It would give some meaning in spending time making your characters turn towards the light or the dark
Yep, the only half-way tricky bit in KOTOR 2 was the Sith temple on Dxun.
Oh how i hated that :laugh4:
The amount of micromanagement it took me to get characters that i hadn't used since i got them through what would have been tough for my main character was amazing.
The only thing i'll say is - take atton. I would never have survived without his revive trick (so that i could run around in circles while he whittled down the sith one shot at at time) :yes:
Zalmoxis
02-01-2007, 04:34
I've actually bought both the KotOR and Jedi Academy games some time back, played them a lot too. I was going to buy KotOR II but after finding out that it's incomplete I decided to wait for these guys (http://www.team-gizka.org/) to finish.
SwordsMaster
02-06-2007, 16:52
All this talk about Kotor made me restart the first one again... Damn you all! I have work to do! :inquisitive:
Yep, the only half-way tricky bit in KOTOR 2 was the Sith temple on Dxun.
You could always turn the difficulty up, though.
Even on hard it was depressingly easy. Kotor was also too easy but at least had the starforge level.
In terms of story and dialogue quality which was a richer experience - KotOR 1 or 2?
In terms of story and dialogue quality which was a richer experience - KotOR 1 or 2?
It's hard for me to say - I enjoyed them both very much.
In conventional terms, Kotor1 had the better story and perhaps dialogue. It had a very nice plot - probably better than any Star Wars movie - with a jaw-dropping Usual Suspects-type twist. Some of the dialogue was excellent - I really enjoyed the verbal parrying with Bastilla, with its bat-squeak of sexuality. I also adored Jolee's jaded old Jedi act.
Kotor2's main plot was a bit of a mess. It did not have much logic and the ending was rushed, in fact, incomplete. Some of Kotor2s characters were hackneyed and underdeveloped. However, perhaps partly because of Kotor2s blemishes, I found it to be rather more compelling. In Kotor1, everything was tied up neatly; in Kotor2, the loose ends made the world seem more real. It was darker, more adult and had better villains. I found the sidequests better motivated and more engaging, whereas many of Kotor1s felt like "make work". The main NPC in Kotor2, Kreia, was one of the most - in fact probably, the most - unusual and unique characters I've seen in a computer game.
They are both excellent RPGs in terms of story and dialogue, IMO. I am struggling to think of others that rival them. Only Baldurs Gate 2 and Vampire Bloodlines come to mind.
Econ 21 thank you for the great reply!
If you haven't already, you might want to play through "Planescape: Torment" an older isometric rpg in Baldurs Gate's engine. The script and dialogues were written by the same guy who did it for the KotOR games, Chris Avellone... and when I found that out I quickly got interested in KotOR's.
Ps:T was one of the greatest PC rpgs ever made with an incredibly rich and mature plot, dialogues and NPCs - I heartily reccomend it to you.
And the Kreia character sounds much like Ravel, an old hag and important, mysterious NPC from the PsT game... with her unforgettable Riddle, which is at the same time the phylosophycal question the game is trying to explore:
"What can change the nature of a man?"
Actually Kreia is far more complex.
She's both your mentor and the big the bad. Who's evil scheme is to use you to destroy the force. Because she hates it.
Nikpalj - don't click Lars's spoiler if you haven't played kotor2 and have any intention of doing so.
I had forgotten about PST. Yes, that's certainly in the story n dialogue camp of RPGs. Although with its heavy emphasis on reading text, it does kind of fall victim to the "show, don't tell" maxim IMO. Plus the world was a little grim for me to persevere with (makes the kotor2 world look like a Care Bears' outing).
Econ 21 thank you for the great reply!
If you haven't already, you might want to play through "Planescape: Torment" an older isometric rpg in Baldurs Gate's engine. The script and dialogues were written by the same guy who did it for the KotOR games, Chris Avellone... and when I found that out I quickly got interested in KotOR's.
Ps:T was one of the greatest PC rpgs ever made with an incredibly rich and mature plot, dialogues and NPCs - I heartily reccomend it to you.
I feel stronger :2thumbsup:
A very unusual and compelling game, beautifull sadness.
SwordsMaster
02-12-2007, 15:13
Just finished Kotor again. First time I completed it 100%, with all the sidequests, and even got the Darth Revan robes, something that hasn't happened before.
Now, on to Kotor 2 if I have the time...
Agonising that I can't find Planescape anywhere :(
Sad Orb.
Amazon uk have it used for £24 or so. It seems these old games ultimately return to the same price as a new game. I've experienced the same frustration with Arena posters talking up Birth of the Federation. If I want to buy it, I have to pay the same price as I'd pay for a new game (higher in fact).
I'm not sure it is worth it for BotF. But if you are a hardcore CRPG player, then PST may well be worth it. A lot of people rate it the best CRPG of all time.
AggonyDuck
07-12-2007, 18:26
The hardest part for me in KotOR 2 were the Mira sections at Nar Shaddaa and Mandalore. I hadn't really bothered to use her, so she was considerably underdeveloped and -equipped, especially in the latter. Facing Hanharr without any proper equipment was definately an exercise in futility.
:wall:
Kekvit Irae
07-12-2007, 18:47
Between the two you have Mass effect, Jade Empire (a special edition is coming to the PC), A Baldur Gate-esque new game (who's name escapes me), and NWN2.
And Sonic The Hedgehog RPG.
GiantMonkeyMan
07-12-2007, 18:50
as much as i loved the KOTORs, i kind of got bored of it after i realised i could go from really good to really bad after just a few conversations/quests... i'd love a Kotor 3 though and i'm also looking forward to the Team Gizka's kotor 2 fix where they are supposedly fixing most of the game
Kekvit Irae
07-12-2007, 18:54
as much as i loved the KOTORs, i kind of got bored of it after i realised i could go from really good to really bad after just a few conversations/quests... i'd love a Kotor 3 though and i'm also looking forward to the Team Gizka's kotor 2 fix where they are supposedly fixing most of the game
The lure to the Dark Side is strong, but the ability to go back to Light is almost impossible. I love KOTOR for simulating that. Plus, it's MUCH more valuable to be Light Side during the final stages of KOTOR when everything is resistant/immune to Dark Side powers.
The hardest part for me in KotOR 2 were the Mira sections at Nar Shaddaa and Mandalore. I hadn't really bothered to use her, so she was considerably underdeveloped and -equipped, especially in the latter. Facing Hanharr without any proper equipment was definately an exercise in futility.
Ducky:
The Mira-Hanharr battle is really hard, esp. if you keep her low level until you convert her to a Jedi so she gains a ton of Jedi levels. Best thing you can do is remember to use the mines since she can run through them, and don't forget you can go to the menu and use a healthkit once each turn without interrupting your action menu, kind of a "free heal". I once beat Hanharr when my PC was level 50 (remember the game scales) and she was level 8, took me 20 minutes and I swear about 90 health kits, but I got him...
Personally, I think Simon said it very well. KOTOR1 had that amazing, fresh look on the SW universe from a gaming perspective, and was extremely well executed and implemented (after the patches, heh). KOTOR2 in my view had a much deeper, darker story than the first one, and it had the potential to have been a much greater game, had Obsidian/LA allowed it to reach it's full potential. In fact one of the things I really liked about KOTOR2 was that of all the SW games/books I've seen/played/read (I haven't read too many of the books TBQH), it's by far the darkest one, far surpassing the Ep. 3 IMO. There's an overall sense of desolation, destruction, like the universe and civiliation is barely hanging on after a huge costly war has been raging for decades. Don't know why I thought that was so well done, probably because I have been getting so sick and tired of all the campy happy-go-lucky type settings that we're used to. Both games were great though and I still play them once in a blue moon. If I had to pick, I'd say the edge goes to KOTOR1.
:balloon2:
Proletariat
07-12-2007, 22:53
I just got to the last fight scene (I think) Fighting Kreia with her Light Sabres and I went fulllll Dark Side like I always do in these games, and I'm pretty bummed. Getting Visas was alright, she's a pretty neat character, but then realising I couldn't get the Maiden or Mira was a let down. Guess I'll have to go back through and play LS this time.
Anyone got some recommendations for specific mods that will make a replay interesting? I'm wishing this game wasn't complete for me, I had so much fun. I'd like to go for another run through but maybe I'll just dust off KOTOR I and get my fix.
Warmaster Horus
07-13-2007, 15:22
You can get the Handmaiden, Prole, if you play a guy. You got the Disciple, right? Well, that explains it.
Proletariat
07-13-2007, 22:47
A..ha. Thanks
Big King Sanctaphrax
07-14-2007, 14:57
You get Visas as LS or DS, also. The only characters you get can which are down to alignment are Mira and Hannharr.
You get Visas as LS or DS, also. The only characters you get can which are down to alignment are Mira and Hannharr.
Something I've wondered - does befriending Visas stop you from turning bao-dur/mira (the ls party members) into jedi?
I've never had any luck getting them turned, even when I've gone full LS on Visas...
discovery1
07-15-2007, 03:48
Something I've wondered - does befriending Visas stop you from turning bao-dur/mira (the ls party members) into jedi?
I've never had any luck getting them turned, even when I've gone full LS on Visas...
No it doesn't. Just be sure to pick the right conversation choices with mira around. that will boost your influence with her. she will then let you show her the force on nar shadda. Bao-dur is a mystery to me though.
Edit:getting mira to be a jedi does however make it impossible to be full dark side, since the conversation choices get you enough light side points to stop that.
Big King Sanctaphrax
07-15-2007, 03:52
I got Bao-Dur to be Jedi on one play-through. He has to be in your party a lot for you to get the conversation options, though. Which is annoying, as he's rubbish.
Warmaster Horus
07-15-2007, 09:46
Bao-Dur, I used him when I was forced to. After that, I completely forgot about him. Except for the lightsaber quest.
I got Bao-Dur to be Jedi on one play-through. He has to be in your party a lot for you to get the conversation options, though. Which is annoying, as he's rubbish.
Yeah - I tried very hard to turn him last time, but even on Dxun (where he's supposed to turn, iirc) I never managed it ~:(
Bao can turn anywhere, his conversion isn't tied to any location, only progressing his dialogues and gaining influence. And he's far from worthless, being a Jedi Guardian he can whip through Dark Jedi like like a lightsaber through paper, esp. at higher levels. Give him a long and short saber for best effect.
Also, there is a guide floating around on how/where/when characters gain influence, and through what actions, I didn't feel bad after checking on this after the 3rd time I played through. If you are careful and concious about where and when you have people in your party, and sometimes are willing to take an LS/DS point depending on your character's path, you can convert them in short order. Bao is almost always the first I convert, because it's so easy, Mira is probably the hardest IMO.
Warmaster Horus
07-15-2007, 17:34
Without a lightsaber he's worthless.
Sarmatian
07-15-2007, 17:47
Well, that's not quite true. Start preparing him for the unarmed combat from the start and at higher levels he can be really powerfull guy.
Unarmed combat is fun to do and watch, but in terms of raw dealing damage (non direct damaging force powers, melee/ranged only) you can't beat a long/short saber setup. Put the right crystals and components in, and you can deal some insane damage with the right feats and boosting force powers.
Of course, this all totally pales in comparison to a Force Enlightenment buffed jedi spamming Force Storm. Talking about clearing rooms... :skull: It's almost cheating.
Warmaster Horus
07-15-2007, 22:59
Say, pardon me if I missed something, but what's the difference between long and short lightsabers? I use long ones, only because they're cooler. Is there anything else, or is the difference purely aesthetic?
Say, pardon me if I missed something, but what's the difference between long and short lightsabers? I use long ones, only because they're cooler. Is there anything else, or is the difference purely aesthetic?
It's been a while, but I think it is like long and short swords in DnD.
If you are only using one lightsaber in one hand, the long will presumably do more damage.
But if you are dual wielding, you are better off with one long and one short (in your off-hand). I think you suffer more of a to hit penalty if the saber in your off-hand is not a short one and this probably outweighs any difference in damage.
Just to build on Simon's post.
If you are only using one lightsaber in one hand, the long will presumably do more damage.
I am pretty sure this isn't true, your single long saber does the exact same damage as when it's being dual wielded with either another long or short sword, all things being equal.
But if you are dual wielding, you are better off with one long and one short (in your off-hand).
Truth. A short saber will give you a 0/+2 bonus to hit, which coupled with level 3 dual wielding feat, almost negates the to-hit penalty to (iirc) -2/0.
I think you suffer more of a to hit penalty if the saber in your off-hand is not a short one
Truth again. Long sabers are 0/0, and short sabers are 0/+2, so they do give the offhand dual wielding bonus.
and this probably outweighs any difference in damage.
This is a bit more complicated, but it really depends on feats. Dual wielders/dual bladed saber folks will benefit obviously from the Dual Wield (some correct me if that wasn't the name, it's been awhile) feat, which starts the reduction in dual wield penalties. Methinks you start at -10/-10 to hit in each hand, and then with 3 levels in the feat it goes to -2/-2. Without any other modifiers through stims/force powers, this means you have two shots per turn to hit someone, one for each weapon. With the full feat and a long/short saber setup, you should be at -2/0 to-hit, which is pretty much even, meaning no real penalties.
The converse to this with a single long saber is instead of dealing with penalties, you get some hefty bonuses to your to-hit through the Dueling feat. I think 3 levels in that will take you all the way up to +10 to hit, and since you start from 0 you can see how that works out.
In terms of raw damage and what you can realistically experience in terms of gameplay, dual wielding will end up vastly outstripping a single saber in terms of damage output. Fully twinked sabers with a max level (yourname crystal) and 3 other high level crystals, best components, full Dual Wield feat, full flurry/critical strike feats, and Force Enlightenment (the thing that fires up speed, the +stats power, and something else) translates into 6/12 individual chances to damage someone per round, and provided you picked the right gear you can expect most of those to land and critically hit.
Of course you have to build up your character right, and this stuff doesn't happen really until the later levels. If you want damage (and to look cool :grin:), go with dual wielding. The thing KOTOR2 did that 1 didn't was make single saber use much more viable for players that wanted to do that for whatever reason.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong above, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate.
:balloon2:
Whacker, I think you read too much into my post. To answer the question what is the difference between the long and short sabers, I was just saying:
(a) long does more damage
but (b) long has a greater penalty to hit if used in the off hand
and that (b) typically outweighs (a) when deciding which type of saber to put in your off hand.
Warmaster Horus, KOTOR does a pretty good job of showing you information on hit modifiers and damage when you equip and unequip your character with alternate weapons. It does not help much with the more complex dual wield vs solo calculations that Whacker was discussing though.
If you want damage (and to look cool ), go with dual wielding.
You are right about dual wield giving more damage, although whether it is vastly higher than duelling I don't know. I think we are talking about one extra attack per turn (at -2). By contrast, the duelling III feat gives +3 attack, +3 defence. People say a big bonus of dual wield is that it allows you to benefit from using more chrystals.
Personally, I always chose duelling - and not dual wielding - for the coolness factor. It is fun watching those companions with dual wielding do their stuff, but it is not for my avatar.
Kekvit Irae
07-16-2007, 01:45
Dueling is primarily for Jedi Consulars who want to survive longer with the added defense so they can bust off with their powers.
Dual-wielding is primarily for offensive characters like Jedi Guardian. Two lightsabers + maxed flurry = Damage to the extreme.
Sentinels can go either way, but I personally prefer dual-wielding, as I use a Scout (they get Flurry 1 for free) to its full advantage.
(a) long does more damage
but (b) long has a greater penalty to hit if used in the off hand
and that (b) typically outweighs (a) when deciding which type of saber to put in your off hand.
Sorry if I misunderstood, but do agree with the above.
You are right about dual wield giving more damage, although whether it is vastly higher than duelling I don't know. I think we are talking about one extra attack per turn (at -2). By contrast, the duelling III feat gives +3 attack, +3 defence.
I stand corrected, like I said it's been awhile since I played both games, I thought Dueling gave bonuses to hit. As for damage output, I'm pretty sure that the best calculated damage output was from dual wielding using master force speed and critical strike, along with a few equipment pieces/crystals. The general idea is that the benefits given from using a single saber and the feats, esp. the to-hit part, end up evening out after a certain point, and the overall damage delt through dual sabers with a few misses will vastly outstrip the single saber and pretty-much guaranteed hits each turn. Sorry if I'm being a bit sketchy, I lost the bookmarks in The Great Crash of Winter of 06 and hence don't have the data to provide (should anyone have been interested).
People say a big bonus of dual wield is that it allows you to benefit from using more chrystals.
Definitely concur here, some of the higher end crystals gives some obscene bonuses to attack/to-hit/damage.
Personally, I always chose duelling - and not dual wielding - for the coolness factor. It is fun watching those companions with dual wielding do their stuff, but it is not for my avatar.
Meh, to each his or her own, can definitely respect the role-playing choices. :grin:
Dual Wielding is still cooler!
Sentinels can go either way, but I personally prefer dual-wielding, as I use a Scout (they get Flurry 1 for free) to its full advantage.
Is there some kind of interactive benefit from flurry and dual wielding? Why would having flurry 1 incline you more to dual wielding? I thought dual wielding just gives you another attack per turn. Does it do more than that with flurry?
The general idea is that the benefits given from using a single saber and the feats, esp. the to-hit part, end up evening out after a certain point...
Yes, I've heard that said about high level DnD as well: you are going to hit and get hit, so damage-dealing and hitpoints are kings. It's a strange game design decision, but I won't lose sleep over it as most of my gaming experience is low-mid level.
Conversely, I suspect dual wielding is also good in Kotor2, where the combat is rather easy. You are more often handling mobs, so damage-dealing is what you want. I don't remember many encounters with hard to hit/hard hitting "boss" types.
All this discussion of kotor is making me itch to go back to it...
Kekvit Irae
07-16-2007, 02:44
Is there some kind of interactive benefit from flurry and dual wielding? Why would having flurry 1 incline you more to dual wielding? I thought dual wielding just gives you another attack per turn. Does it do more than that with flurry?
Two-weapon fighting allows offhand attack. Flurry gives yet another attack, and Master Speed adds two attacks, giving you a total of (base attacks) + 4 attacks a round.
All this discussion of kotor is making me itch to go back to it...
Wait until these guys (http://www.team-gizka.org/) are done, they're almost there. Supposed to add at least 2-3 hours of cut content back in, including numerous bug fixes.
Why would having flurry 1 incline you more to dual wielding? I thought dual wielding just gives you another attack per turn. Does it do more than that with flurry?
In my most humble opinion, Flurry 1 and 2 are almost useless early on in the game with a lower level char, because they give you an extra attack but the penalties to def and to-hit (or was it just attack? can someone correct me pls?) negate most of those, because you won't be able to hit anything, and while you are busy not hitting stuff, it's hitting you harder. With a much higher level character, your natural abilities, gear, and force powers/buffs/stims will negate most of the downsides, so you can get away with low level flurry. Honestly though, why would anyone want to? If one is going to go with the flurry feat, it's pretty pointless not to max it so the penalties are negates/reduced considerably.
KOTOR2 really struck me as a game that it was a real pain in the tookiss and very hard early on when one is lower clvl, and towards the end, it was almost painfully easy, even with self-imposed house/roleplay rules. KOTOR1 on the other hand was consistently difficult, the Star Forge and it's endless lvl 20 Dark Jedi was nuts, even harder IMO that Malak at the end, who was just about impossible unless one used some semi-cheap tactics. It was really obvious to me that KOTOR1 was pretty carefully balanced, and KOTOR2 was really rushed out the door because of this characteristic, more so than plot holes or random bugs.
:balloon2:
Kekvit Irae
07-16-2007, 03:10
Yes, they Flurry gets penalties to defense and attack. But I never said I was going to stick with JUST the first level of Flurry. Maxing out Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry are essential, and Scouts do this better because they have more feats than any other class (free feats + good feat progression). The fact that Scouts get Flurry 1 for free is just icing on the cake, freeing my first level feat selection for Toughness (+1 hp a lvl first feat, 2 Damage Reduction second feat, +1 hp a level third feat), Conditioning (+1 to all saving throws each level), or Two-Weapon Fighting.
Two-weapon fighting allows offhand attack. Flurry gives yet another attack, and Master Speed adds two attacks, giving you a total of (base attacks) + 4 attacks a round.
Yes, but flurry and master speed give those extra attacks to the single light saber wielder. I don't see how having such a feat tilts a character more to dual wielding - it's still just giving you another one attack (although I suppose they allow the benefit of the extra chrystals to come into play more).
One point in favour of single wielding is the 1.5x strength bonus - the light solo saber is treated as being wielded two-handed.
Kekvit Irae
07-16-2007, 05:03
It all comes down to damage output efficiency. Would you rather have five attacks a round with 2d10 (figuring in that you will be using a double-bladed saber), or four attacks a round at 2d8 with x1.5 Strength bonus?
Using the above weapons...
Without the crystals, the max a Two-Weapon Fighter can do is 100 damage. Figuring in a strength of 18 (I rarely go this high), which gives a bonus of +4 to damage and +4 to hit, you'll get a max of 120 damage.
Without the crystals, the max a Duelist can do is 80 damage. With a Strength of 18, plus the x1.5 modifier, you'll get a +6 to damage and +4 to hit, giving you a max of 104.
And then you've got the crazy damage of the Mantle Of The Force (or Heart of the Guardian) + Opila crystals.
It all comes down to which you would rather have? Better to-hit and defense (helpful against blasters), or more damage?
EDIT: On the side note, I personally prefer Dex builds when playing a Duelist (which I do frequently). More defense = more survivability = more time to use the Jedi powers I need to kill my enemy.
EDIT2: I didn't even figure in the Master Dueling feat benefits. Max damage for the Duelist is 116. Still lower than the Two-Weapon Fighter.
I could not resist and went back to this, but have a wierd "freezing bug". After combat, the WASD keys don't work. Tabbing to another character or reloading will get around it, but it is a real pan. Bioware tech support forum has half a dozen threads on it, but no solution.
That's wierd, I don't ever remember encountering that one. What video card and drivers are you using?
That's wierd, I don't ever remember encountering that one. What video card and drivers are you using?
I think it is video card related, as the game worked fine on the same computer but with an older card.
My current card is NVIDIA Geforce 7800 GS. I just updated to the latest official drivers (6.14.0010.9424 English), hoping that would solve the problem but it doesn't.
Proletariat
07-17-2007, 13:28
Huh, having the same problem, Simon. Thought it was something else. I usually just go to the 'equip items' screen and then go back in game and it's resolved. I'm replaying KOTOR2 right now with a mod that let's me play as Yuthura Ban (the Twi'lek sith from KOTOR1) and it's a pretty neat twist.
Hmmm, looks like 94.24 are real stinkers. Took me a bit, but apparently Nvidia has pulled the 94.24 release notes PDF from their site, which would contain any lists of known/fixed issues for games. Further there seem to be a number of Google results early on that would indicate at a glance that 94.24 is a stinker.
Might want to consider backdating to 93.71 (http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_93.71.html) here. Good luck either way guys.
:balloon2:
Ah...this game. I beat the first KOTR and KOTRII, it was fun, to say the least. I had a jedi dressed in sith robes, witha red lightsaber. All good he was. :grin2:
I had an awesome armour-wearing guardian/weapons master. He was just... kill things...kill lots...doom.
The two-bladed sabre does the most damage overall, but two weapons allow more interesting and diverse boni.
I'm sorry, but whenever I hear a discussion about dual-wielding, I can't help think of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJOVPjhXMY).
Well, I was inspired by this thread to replay Kotor2. I am just hacking my way into the Trayar Academy now to end it. I must say, I had forgotten quite how much I love the game.
The dialogue and voice acting are fantastic - several times, I've shouted a line at the computer, only to find it as conversation option (1). It's probably sacrilege, but I think that this aspect of kotor2 is stronger than both Fallout2 and BG2.
The sidequests and central story arc are nearly all involving and propel you through the game, even though the combat is far too easy (even on hard). Up to the destruction of the Ravager, I don't see a big problem with the main story - it holds together pretty well. The Onderon/Telos/Ravager finales are all great. (I know things sort of fall apart at the end, but by then the game is virtually over). The complexity and loose end (some might say "mess") just make it more replayable, as I had forgotten almost all everything and it was a joy to rediscover it.
Above all, I just love the dark atmosphere and oppressive mood of the game. I originally wanted to replay Kotor1, but emerging from my hideout on the first planet, I could not face the bland, sunny world (this problem with the tone of Kotor1 is highlighted by the early sidequest where you can go to a Sith party).
Nonetheless, I'm going to try kotor1 again next. I am looking forward to the tougher combat and getting reacquainted with some old friends.
Welp... While we're on this subject. Anyone recommend any good mods for KOTOR1? I for one would like some that add to the game, and don't necessarily change/take anything away.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.