Dillema nº 2: Does the Rebel AI actually build units?

[The Unknown Guy]

It seemed so, at least, in a Byzantium campaign, while I was looking at Crete, which was involved in an Italian Civil War. One turn it had 10 handgunners or so, and three turns later it had 13 (or so it seemed to me)

So was I mistaken in my count, was it a leftover queued before the civil war, or does the rebel AI build units if the buildings are avaiable?

If the latter, wouldn´t it be interesting to mod the starting buildings of "rebel kingdoms" (Navarre, Portugal, Khazar...) so that having neighbouring rebels is actually a threat of sorts?
Also, what about making the rebel AI able to build the infrastructure for basic units (Militia, archers) if possible?

[caravel]

It seemed so, at least, in a Byzantium campaign, while I was looking at Crete, which was involved in an Italian Civil War. One turn it had 10 handgunners or so, and three turns later it had 13 (or so it seemed to me)

So was I mistaken in my count, was it a leftover queued before the civil war, or does the rebel AI build units if the buildings are avaiable?

If the latter, wouldn´t it be interesting to mod the starting buildings of "rebel kingdoms" (Navarre, Portugal, Khazar...) so that having neighbouring rebels is actually a threat of sorts?
Also, what about making the rebel AI able to build the infrastructure for basic units (Militia, archers) if possible?
The rebel faction doesn't construct buildings but it does seem to train all units except agents, crusades/jihads and ships. The problem is that it usually never has enough money and doesn't adjust taxes. Try it for yourself add the -ian switch to the MTW shortcut on your desktop. Add the switch outside the brackets. Fire up a campaign in any era, and using the ctrl + number keys or shift + number keys, cycle through the factions until you are the rebels. Alternatively do it the easy way and type .conan. at the campaign map. After a few years they will be in the red. There's not much modding that can be done to the rebels they are all a single faction that takes on the names and cultures of whichever province they're in. For example if you were the Turks and if your army in Constantinople rebelled from your control in a civil war, several years later after the generals had died of old age those men would have greek portraits and names. Also if Georgia had been orthodox your former would have converted to orthodox. This is how the rebels function. They rarely attack unless they've got a massive numerical advantage and you're already at war with them. The problem with MTW is that there are too many rebels, especially in eastern europe.

[Vladimir]

Rebels will train spies, assasins, and ships of the facilities still exist after the provence goes rebel. Of course, it's very rare and the units they produce are usually garbage.

[The Unknown Guy]

"The problem with MTW is that there are too many rebels, especially in eastern europe."
Agreed, there should be more "unplayable factions" and less rebel provinces. Would add more intrigue to the gameplay

[Martok]

Rebels will train spies, assasins, and ships of the facilities still exist after the provence goes rebel. Of course, it's very rare and the units they produce are usually garbage.
When/where have you seen that, Vladmir? I ask because while I've heard tales of the occasional rebel ship appearing, I've never seen rebels train agents of any kind. :inquisitive: I don't believe they even build the facilities necessary *to* train them--that only happens if the buildings already existed in the particular province the rebels occupy. Either way, though, the rebels never train agents that I've seen.


Agreed, there should be more "unplayable factions" and less rebel provinces. Would add more intrigue to the gameplay
That's a big reason why I like the XL Mod, as it greatly reduces the number of independent provinces while simultaneously maxing out the number of actual factions. I realize there's a good number of "rebel" provinces in vanilla MTW so that certain factions can expand without bumping into their neighbors right away, but I still think CA went a bit overboard in that respect. It's admittedly only a minor nitpick, but one that could probably have been done a little better.

[caravel]

When/where have you seen that, Vladmir? I ask because while I've heard tales of the occasional rebel ship appearing, I've never seen rebels train agents of any kind. :inquisitive: I don't believe they even build the facilities necessary *to* train them--that only happens if the buildings already existed in the particular province the rebels occupy. Either way, though, the rebels never train agents that I've seen.
Vladimir is right. I've often seen messages about assassins being caught that were "believed to have been working for the rebels". Ships I've never seen, but that may be because the rebels never have shipyards. If you do see rebel ships it's most likely because you're playing a mod and they were in the startpos file.

That's a big reason why I like the XL Mod, as it greatly reduces the number of independent provinces while simultaneously maxing out the number of actual factions. I realize there's a good number of "rebel" provinces in vanilla MTW so that certain factions can expand without bumping into their neighbors right away, but I still think CA went a bit overboard in that respect. It's admittedly only a minor nitpick, but one that could probably have been done a little better.
True. The problem with the eastern european "rebel zone" is that it allows the Byzantine to expand much too quickly.

[Vladimir]

:laugh4: It always makes me pause and think: "Did I really see that?" :inquisitive: I also tend to encounter them when playing an eastern faction.

[Martok]

Vladimir is right. I've often seen messages about assassins being caught that were "believed to have been working for the rebels". Ships I've never seen, but that may be because the rebels never have shipyards. If you do see rebel ships it's most likely because you're playing a mod and they were in the startpos file.

:laugh4: It always makes me pause and think: "Did I really see that?" :inquisitive: I also tend to encounter them when playing an eastern faction.
Well I'll be scuppered. I've honestly never noticed that before. I think I'm going to pay a little closer attention to the "captured assassin" messages in the future. :book:


True. The problem with the eastern european "rebel zone" is that it allows the Byzantine to expand much too quickly.
Indeed. A pity the Polish/Novgorods don't take better advantage of them instead of the Byz.

[Sensei Warrior]

Too many rebels in Eastern Europe. I was dabbling in a campaign for Novorog(?) in Early and by 1096 give or take I had conquered all the rebel factions from Finland to Khazar north and south, and west to border with the polish.

It almost looks like CA started with western europe and worked their way east when creating the factions, and just ran out of time. Thankfully we have modders to correct that sort of thing.

I saw the rebel spy thing during my first expert campaign as the english. At first I thought I was confused, then it happened a couple more times. I was shocked. I woulda taken a screenie if I could just remember how to do it.

[The Unknown Guy]

Seen that too. My theory is that it has to do with civil wars/wiped out factions. However, if you die without heirs, and take a look at the map before exiting, you see that all your forces become rebel by default (even through your provinces remain your faction´s color), and your agents -at least emissaries- disappear, which kind of speaks against this theory

[macsen rufus]

I have seen (or rather "my agents have captured" :laugh4: ) rebel assassins on many occasions, and on one solitary occasion I've seen a rebel ship. The ship must have been built because in civil wars ships always remain with the loyalist faction, and always vanish when a faction dies out.


Agreed, there should be more "unplayable factions" and less rebel provinces. Would add more intrigue to the gameplay

True -- but as soon as there's an unplayable faction there'll be a mod to make it playable :laugh4:

[caravel]

With civil wars, if your units rebel in a particular province and you have no loyalist forces there to contend it, the provinces are automatically theirs. In this case destruction of buildings doesn't occur, so if there was a tavern there, the AI shoulld be able to produce assassins if it has money.

In the case of a faction that is wiped out, all of it's ships and agents are stripped from map. Princesses, Emissaries, Assassins, Spies, Priests, Inquisitors and all ships are removed.

This is another argument that adds weight to the "ships are agents" theory. There is obviously a function that removes agents from the map when their faction is eliminated. This function doesn't effect military units and it shouldn't have effected ships, Spies, Assassins or Inquisitors either. The only agents that need to be removed are Priests, Emissaries and Princesses because those are capable of making alliances, proposing marriages and arranging ceasefires. Doing any of that with the rebels would probably crash the game. It would seem that instead of creating a function to purge the diplomatic units, the developers simply created one that purged all agents.

[Odin]

I have never seen (or let me say, I dont remember) capturing rebel agents. However if you start the game in the high period, Constantanople is rebel and has a rebel boat in the Bosphrous.

I also believe (someone can check this if they wish) that constantanople in high has ship making ability.

[caravel]

Ok here's a few discoveries I've made about the rebel faction.

1) They're Pagan, which should mean that building muslim, catholic or orthodox culture units is a no, but I think the "ALL_FACTIONS" faction association label overrides this? Whatever the case, the Rebels cannot build anything that isn't "ALL_FACTIONS" or "FN_REBEL", seemingly regardless of culture.

2) They can't build any ships at all, but this can be changed. At present the factions that can build Dhows, Baggalas and Booms are as follows:

"FN_ALMOHAD, FN_EGYPTIAN, FN_TURKISH, FN_GOLDEN_HORDE"

Changing this to ALL_FACTIONS, then imposing a "Muslim, Pagan" culture restriction should have the effect of allowing those factions and the rebels to build ships. Or would it...

3) The rebels can train spies and assassins. The spies and assassins have the following culture restrictions: "CATHOLIC, ORTHODOX, MUSLIM", yet the supposedly pagan rebels can train them. They use the old Taverns and Brothels from Vanilla MTW that can't be upgraded, not the new ones. The old ones are still there specifically for the rebels, which is a good thing. - Edit: A moot point though, because the rebels still won't build them anyway. They will only train assassins and spies in the taverns/brothels left in place for them by real factions or those included in the startpos file.

They can't train emissaries on account of them not being able to construct the royal palace, I'm not sure why that is, it must be hardcoded because there's nothing in the build prod file to prevent them from doing so. I have inserted a royal palace into the startpos file and trained an emissary as the rebels, so they can train the emissaries just not the palace. -:Edit I'm not sure about this either, I think they can build the royal palace theoretically but simply won't build it, as the rebel AI doesn't seem to build anything?

4) The units that the rebel faction is "given" when revolts and civil wars occur don't have to match any of the rebel culture or faction restrictions.

5) While pagan, they don't propagate their faith in any way and their stacks take on the religion and culture of the province they're spawned in.

[naut]

Simply, yes but they are too poor. In the VI campaign the abbey building boosts income considerably so they often thrive.

[Adrian II]

True, my border forts and agents catch the occasional rebel Spies and Assassins. No Emissaries, Inquisitors, etcetera though - which seems only fair since you can't return to favours of inquisition or proposed ceasefire to them.

But rebel ships? Never in my M:TW VI. Most probably a bug. :inquisitive:

[caravel]

Rebels ships are in the startpos file for the era. If you see rebel ships this is where they've come from.

[Ledge]

Hi Guys,
Whilst I have seen rebel ships (once I think) and caught enemy agents something happened the other day which surprised me in a couple of ways. Playing as the Northumbrians in VI/H the Irish sent me a princess. Obviously I couldn't refuse the offer of marriage for one of my deadbeat sons! Well the next turn the Irish king croaked but without any heirs so I thought thanks for the bride but no handy alliance. However, for the first time ever I inherited a faction's lands (most of Ireland...whoopeee!!). Furthermore I was rewarded with a level 2 Bishop, several level 5 spies and a level 3 emissary. Never saw it happen before and never expect it to happen again!

[caravel]

Congratulations you are a winner! :gorgeous::crown::kiss2: :beatnik::deal:

This is a rare occurrence. Do you have the game saved just before this occurred? What sort of taxation have you set in your provinces?

I've never heard of anyone inheriting the faction's agents before though!? :2thumbsup:

[Sensei Warrior]

Rare being an understatement as I have never had it happen either. Congrats Ledge.

[Deus ret.]

Yes. Cherish the moment and also your luck. Save the game to always be able to live through that great moment again for which to happen many passionate MTWers wait for years ....and in vain, like me!

[Odin]

Hi Guys,
Whilst I have seen rebel ships (once I think) and caught enemy agents something happened the other day which surprised me in a couple of ways. Playing as the Northumbrians in VI/H the Irish sent me a princess. Obviously I couldn't refuse the offer of marriage for one of my deadbeat sons! Well the next turn the Irish king croaked but without any heirs so I thought thanks for the bride but no handy alliance. However, for the first time ever I inherited a faction's lands (most of Ireland...whoopeee!!). Furthermore I was rewarded with a level 2 Bishop, several level 5 spies and a level 3 emissary. Never saw it happen before and never expect it to happen again!

Congrats on your luck.

A curious observation....

I have heard of inheritences in MTW (never had one) but never an inheritence of agents. You seem to be in Viking game, and not the main campaign, coincidence?

I would be curious to know if anyone out there has inherited agents in a campaign game outside of the viking scenario.

[Ledge]

As I stated in my original post I never expect it to happen again! It did come at a very useful time as well preceeding an attack by the Mercian hordes by a year.

"This is a rare occurrence. Do you have the game saved just before this occurred? What sort of taxation have you set in your provinces?" Caravel.

Prior to their transfer of allegiance the taxation rate was a uniform very high across my 6 provinces.

"I have heard of inheritences in MTW (never had one) but never an inheritence of agents. You seem to be in Viking game, and not the main campaign, coincidence?" Odin.

The thought had crossed my mind as well Odin as to whether it's a Viking Invasion quirk. One observation though is that all the agents I inherited were within the Irish held lands and none from anywhere else on the map. Maybe rebels only inherit agents within their own lands as well?

Oh yeah, if I figure how to do it I'll post some snaps of my NON-MERCENARY Bonnachts and Gallowglasses alongside my Irish monikered agents.

[Martok]

Congrats on your inheritance, Ledge! ~:cheers:

I've never inherited agents myself, at least not that I've noticed. I would go along with the theory that it's because it happened in your VI campaign. I've only inherited land in the main campaign; and when I do, I only get their lands and armies, not agents as well.

[Caerfanan]

Vladimir is right. I've often seen messages about assassins being caught that were "believed to have been working for the rebels". Ships I've never seen, but that may be because the rebels never have shipyards. If you do see rebel ships it's most likely because you're playing a mod and they were in the startpos file.

True. The problem with the eastern european "rebel zone" is that it allows the Byzantine to expand much too quickly.

Wow. Never seen that my self.... A rebel assassin, I mean.

I think that the rebels train units, but at a very slow rate. Don't forget that rebels retreating fro one province end in an adjacent rebel province; Could this come from it?

[Caerfanan]

So the inheritance stuff is true! I haven't seen one my self in 25 viking campaigns (or so). But now I keep hope!!!

A fair princess is always a welcomed gift (~:flirt:), but lands.. Aaaaaaah, lands...

[caravel]

Wow. Never seen that my self.... A rebel assassin, I mean.
I've seen it a few times in the past, though not for a long time as I've played with non critical messages disabled for years.

I think that the rebels train units, but at a very slow rate. Don't forget that rebels retreating fro one province end in an adjacent rebel province; Could this come from it?
The rebels are usually in the red after a year or two, so they don't actually train units at all, it can happen though with the right circumstances.

[Taedius]

On Rebels:
Once I played a campaign where Sweden was left alone for years, for some reason. They did build the basic infrastucture from scratch.
The Rebels start off with one ship in the Sea of Marmara in High. Once I typed .conan., controlled the Rebel provinces (including Sahara!), but was unable to make ships.

On inheriting lands:
Happened to me once, playing as the Norwegians in XL. I took over some French provinces, some troops, and quite a few agents. It created an interesting situation: The provinces were (IIRC) Lorraine, Ile de France and Anjou. I allready had Friesland.

[Captain Brainslide]

The rebel faction doesn't construct buildings but it does seem to train all units except agents, crusades/jihads and ships. The problem is that it usually never has enough money and doesn't adjust taxes.


Sorry if my newbie post here somewhat contradicts a veteran's observations, but I'm certain that the AI rebels do build buildings, and that their tax rates always seem to be at Very High but they don't ever seem to deviate from 100% loyalty. It may be that I always start off campaigns by bribing Sweden and other quiet defensible corners I can get my hands on, so they get a monetary boost early on and can therefore afford the new buildings, but they do build them. In my current campaign the rebel Norway is steadily building a nice little army to defend the port/castle/military building facilities they've built up over the years, it's interesting to watch them grow even if they do raids on occasion. They have to be getting money from other provinces and/or my bribes, there's no way the 78 florin income of Norway is going to support even a fraction of what they've produced. I haven't yet seen rebel fleets or emissaries, though.

One somewhat related thing I can't figure out: is there any way to ever get out of a state of war with the rebels, aside from destroying every one you have a border with and hiding away all your fleets from the coasts? I'm playing as the Byz now, and pulling out doesn't seem to even be an option unless I'm crazy enough to retreat everyone to Naples and the islands, or invade lots of useless low income steppe provinces I'd rather let Novgorad and Poland take (but they never seem to want to expand). It'd be great if they'd once in a while build an emissary willing to sue for peace - it's not like I've ever done anything to them but give them money to get some of their cool troops. Those rebel docks look like perfect trade partners.

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, Captain Brainslide! It's good to see you here. ~:wave:


One somewhat related thing I can't figure out: is there any way to ever get out of a state of war with the rebels, aside from destroying every one you have a border with and hiding away all your fleets from the coasts? I'm playing as the Byz now, and pulling out doesn't seem to even be an option unless I'm crazy enough to retreat everyone to Naples and the islands, or invade lots of useless low income steppe provinces I'd rather let Novgorad and Poland take (but they never seem to want to expand). It'd be great if they'd once in a while build an emissary willing to sue for peace - it's not like I've ever done anything to them but give them money to get some of their cool troops. Those rebel docks look like perfect trade partners.
In short, the answer to your question is "no". The only way you can make peace with rebels is if you have no provinces or fleets touching another rebel province.

[macsen rufus]

I've recently been using -ian a lot for testing as mod, basically to force the rebels to build the right castle in the right province for me to test the map works, and as a result of that I've found out that: rebels do build buildings, they do train units, they do train agents IF they have the money. The other thing I've noticed is that the rebels never have any cash! If you want your rebels to be more of a challenge, give them a better economy, then they will be able to do stuff :beam: Or maybe do the million-florin cheat for them and the flip back to your desired faction.....

(I proved they built buildings when I discovered they'd gone and upgraded a castle before I had a chance to assault the level I was intending to test! Using .worksundays. so they finished it in a single turn..... devious :furious3: s!) I've since learnt to fill up the build queue for them before switching back to a playable faction, so they don't mess up the development :laugh4:

[caravel]

Sorry if my newbie post here somewhat contradicts a veteran's observations, but I'm certain that the AI rebels do build buildings, and that their tax rates always seem to be at Very High but they don't ever seem to deviate from 100% loyalty.
Welcome Captain Brainslide, to the .org :bow:

You may be completely correct, and in fact I think you are. When I had posted that it was something I hadn't really thought about much. I had never noticed the AI building anything, because in my campaigns on early they are usually completely bankrupted in a few turns and never recover again. The rebels always get 100% loyalty, not 120%, this is to allow re-appearances of factions and loyalist revolts.


It may be that I always start off campaigns by bribing Sweden and other quiet defensible corners I can get my hands on, so they get a monetary boost early on and can therefore afford the new buildings, but they do build them. In my current campaign the rebel Norway is steadily building a nice little army to defend the port/castle/military building facilities they've built up over the years, it's interesting to watch them grow even if they do raids on occasion. They have to be getting money from other provinces and/or my bribes, there's no way the 78 florin income of Norway is going to support even a fraction of what they've produced. I haven't yet seen rebel fleets or emissaries, though.
The rebels are a faction like any other with a single economy.

One somewhat related thing I can't figure out: is there any way to ever get out of a state of war with the rebels, aside from destroying every one you have a border with and hiding away all your fleets from the coasts? I'm playing as the Byz now, and pulling out doesn't seem to even be an option unless I'm crazy enough to retreat everyone to Naples and the islands, or invade lots of useless low income steppe provinces I'd rather let Novgorad and Poland take (but they never seem to want to expand). It'd be great if they'd once in a while build an emissary willing to sue for peace - it's not like I've ever done anything to them but give them money to get some of their cool troops. Those rebel docks look like perfect trade partners.
You'll have to lose those mutual borders and pull out those ships, like Martok has said. At the end of the day it's often not worth it, if it comes down to an issue of land borders.

I have looked into methods of improving the rebel economy and have only come up with the idea of adding a large income to the exclusively rebel buildings such as the old Inn and Tavern, and making them very cheap to build. This will mean a proliferation of rebel spies and assassins swarming about, but that may not be such a bad thing.

[EatYerGreens]

I have looked into methods of improving the rebel economy and have only come up with the idea of adding a large income to the exclusively rebel buildings such as the old Inn and Tavern, and making them very cheap to build. This will mean a proliferation of rebel spies and assassins swarming about, but that may not be such a bad thing.

Good thinking.

How to work it though? Does it have to be labelled as CATHEDRAL_INCOME to function properly (as in showing up on the economy info parchment, if this was a player-aid, instead) or can you just slap an income figure down and it'll work anyway?

Also, will they lose out if they win a province containing a NEW_TAVERN type building? Or will the culture mis-match assure its demolition, during the pillage phase?


As mentioned in threads elsewhere, I have tried giving Sahara to the rebels with 10k per year income and land borders closed to prevent invasion. However, I stopped short of a complete seal-off and left it accessible by sea, hoping to be able to trade with it. This was a mistake because, during -ian auto-running, it got invaded by proper factions and totally unbalanced the remainder of the game.

I thought that completely sealing it off from attack might crash the game but I recently read of a setup whereby the Pope is sealed inside Rome and that apparently works. So long as no faction ever pulls off a re-emergence inside a sealed province, in rebel hands (100% loyalty) that is...


EDIT: P.S. During testing of the 10k Sahara, at some stage, I swear one of the rebel provinces had built a Drinking Den. Something not quite right about that. There's a faint possibility that they'd captured a NEW_TAVERN and that somehow opened the door to the remainder of that tree (e.g. filter improperly set to ALL_FACTIONS).
EDIT2: In fact, nothing in either Col 15 or Col 20 to constrain any of these. It's just that only FN_REBEL is able to build the Old Tavern and Brothel, which isn't really enough, by itself, is it?

[The Unknown Guy]

I was going to ask: would fixing the Rebel economy keep them asking as rebels, or would they turn into demons from Outer Hell able to wreack havoc through empires?

Also: another fix idea: either restore or leave the sahara as a rebel, unreachable, province, and giving it a huge income, to fund the rebels

[Dark Water]

Welcome to the Org, Captain Brainslide! It's good to see you here. ~:wave:


In short, the answer to your question is "no". The only way you can make peace with rebels is if you have no provinces or fleets touching another rebel province.

I've always thought that once your lands no longer touch an enemys lands their not an enemy but recently in MTW I fought the mongols (I took one of their provinces isolated from all the rest), afterwards I was still at war with them despite being seperated from them...the only thing I can think of is that I controlled all the seas in the game(sweet sweet candy) even though they had no ships...could that be the reason or did I just annoy them that much??

[The Unknown Guy]

If you have a ship next to their provinces it counts as "holding a border". Same if they hold a ship next to yours. Even if you don´t see it.

It would me more accurate to say that a war is voided immediatedly if you "lose contact" with your enemy-agents don´t count as contact, for the record- (makes sense in immersing you in the setting, in a certain way, as you only know what is happening in your immediate lands.)

[Martok]

I've always thought that once your lands no longer touch an enemys lands their not an enemy but recently in MTW I fought the mongols (I took one of their provinces isolated from all the rest), afterwards I was still at war with them despite being seperated from them...the only thing I can think of is that I controlled all the seas in the game(sweet sweet candy) even though they had no ships...could that be the reason or did I just annoy them that much??
You're probably still at war because of your navy, yes. If you even just have a ship in a sea region touching a province owned by an enemy, then you are still considered to be "in contact" them them. :yes: