View Full Version : Can generals rebel?
Xtiaan72
01-25-2007, 01:41
Just wondering if generals can rebel. Interesting particularly with Rome. I'm wondering if it would be possible for a trait to trigger such an event. A trait that affected very warlike generals fighting far from home ( especially Roman ones). A
trait that simulates a legion proclaiming an emperor. It would be really cool especially since there are no Roman factions. Could it be tied into the Loyalty stat?
Generals can rebel if you have BI, but not with 1.5.
Generals can rebel if you have BI, but not with 1.5.
Is that to the rebel faction, or do you mean to the shadow faction?
Xtiaan72
01-25-2007, 03:03
So they do rebel in EB....if you have BI? ( I Do) If so under what conditions?
No, they don't, unless they're bribed afaik.
Xtiaan72
01-25-2007, 03:25
Was that a decision by the EB team not to have rebelling generals? Or is it something that could possibly be implemented in the future now that EB is compatible with BI? I'm thinking of those awesome scripts in Medieval One that would trigger civil wars where you could pick a side. A script like that would be perfect for EB.
Not a bad idea... if a family member is in a very remote governorship on the outskirts of an empire and has a fairly well sized army under his posession and if he has acquired traits such as "easily bribed" etc. Or a general outside the city.
You can't rebel to the rebel faction without problems, and to have a shadow faction one would have to be cut. Personally, I think there should be a shadow faction, such as the Averni for the Aedui, roman traitors for Rome, another british tribe for Casse, etc, but I can easily see this being a nightmare for the team, so I would say it's only worth considering when we get to EB2 for the Romans, maybe for seleukia but again, with the complexity of EB, having it vary per faction would be a enormous task.
Xtiaan72
01-25-2007, 03:41
Exactly, We are talking end game here...I'm wondering if those Medieval I type scripts are possible so that you could choose to side with the rebellious general. Then you could script it so it wouldn't be possible till about 70 bc...You could create viable Julius Ceasar type scenarios this way. I'm just getting interested in modding so I don't know if this kind of thing is even possible within the limitations of Rome's code.
Is that to the rebel faction, or do you mean to the shadow faction?
I don't know, I don't have BI.
CountArach
01-25-2007, 08:03
If you play with BI.exe, then IT IS POSSIBLE TO DO. However, this requires further modding. AFAIK it is possible to put loyalty into 1.5, yet EB has not done it.
Loyalty can be used in the 1.5 RTW exe, however you cannot use playable factions as shadows because if you play as shadowing then you loose the game the moment the shadowed faction is beaten...
If you want to play RTW with rebel factions then I'd suggest you XGM although of course it doesn't have the same level of realism as EB...
GodEmperorLeto
01-25-2007, 18:08
The rebellion thing is a great idea if it can be done. Especially since some of the factions already have political parties. Imagine the Romanoi getting hit with a massive crisis because a powerful populares general rebels, shaking the loyalty of all the other populares generals, and enraging the optimate generals.
Nevertheless, it would be a coding nightmare for a team already breaking their necks. I'm happy with the game as-is.
Coding wise is not as problematic as it might seem, the main problem is that introducing rebels would make a bloodbath as every rebel faction is one less playable slot available and I don't even wanna start thinking about the threads that it would create...
GodEmperorLeto
01-25-2007, 20:07
I just mean having a general defect to the Eleutheroi, basically.
Xtiaan72
01-25-2007, 20:13
I'm glad some of you like the idea. I assumed when I brought it up there would be technical issues. It just seemed like a logical extension of the new trait system. Obviously the idea was geared to the Romani. I am encouraged that there are ways to implement it in the code but some of you have given solid reasons why it would be difficult to implement.
CONS-
1) If I'm understanding this right at least one faction would have to be elimanated to enable a rebel Roman faction. Since one of EB's main functions is to flesh out tons of cool factions, this in it self would turn some people off.
2) The coding to make it happen would be a gargantuan task. That's the biggest road block right there.
3) Shadow factions as playable would end the game when the original faction was eliminated. There is probably a work around on this one as there is no reason why the player couldn't be the original faction when the event happened.
4) People who don't have BI would not be able to play this version
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PROS-
1) The ability to role-play a character that has ambitions of empire. With the new trait system this could be handled in a much better way than Vanilla with conditions that make it challenging and the payoff worth-while. It also gives the existing Roman political faction traits real function and a valid reason to
make use of the loyalty trait.
2) An epic, compelling end game. You get to be Emperor! And start a real line of succession. It would also add spice to campaigns for other factions. "Now is the time to strike, the Romans are in turmoil."
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I also love EB as is. It's just an idea to keep people playing and prolong the shelf life of a game we all love. If it had enough support it would probably be best to implement it as an optional mini-mod for EB or to put it on the table as a valid idea for EB2 in the future.
I just mean having a general defect to the Eleutheroi, basically.
That would require setting the Eleutheroi as shadow faction, which causes a crash when the faction is destroyed.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
01-25-2007, 22:50
That would require setting the Eleutheroi as shadow faction, which causes a crash when the faction is destroyed.
The Eleutheroi or the faction that defects to the Eleutheroi? Because it is impossible to destroy the Eleutheroi as of the current setup.
Xtiaan72
01-25-2007, 22:53
The Eleutheroi or the faction that defects to the Eleutheroi? Because it is impossible to destroy the Eleutheroi as of the current setup.
The optimate generals are the ones that should defect. Interesting idea because it wouldn't require getting rid of an existing faction at all.
The Eleutheroi or the faction that defects to the Eleutheroi? Because it is impossible to destroy the Eleutheroi as of the current setup.
Not the Eleutheroi but the faction the Eleurtheroi are set as shadow-faction of.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
01-25-2007, 23:10
Not the Eleutheroi but the faction the Eleurtheroi are set as shadow-faction of.
That's what I thought/was afraid of.
GodEmperorLeto
01-26-2007, 01:08
No, no, no, guys. No Eleutheroi as shadow-faction.
What I am saying is that, through traits and some coding, you can cause generals to defect to the Eleutheroi. The idea is that the player's faction is divided by civil war, and is in charge of the "legitimate" faction. Since history is written by the victors, that's fine by me. And it could allow gargantuan empires to spin apart by centripetal force.
Basically, when it happens, you get a message, like, "GENERAL REBELS! This general has raised his standard against your legitimate rule! Blah, blah, blah." It would make sense if a populares general revolted because an optimate is the head of the Romani, or if a king dies, and the heir's brother revolts in order to challenge him. Just make him Eleutheroi and let the player deal with him. If the Eleutheroi wins, well, the game's over anyway. If the player reconquers the rebel's territory, horray. If the game continues but that stuff is never regained, well... Dynasties have divided, both claiming legitimacy over the throne, and never reunited themselves.
QwertyMIDX
01-26-2007, 01:48
The problem is there is no mechanism to change a faction general to a rebel general, except by the rebels bribing them. Trust me, EB would love to have this happen if we could.
Xtiaan72
01-26-2007, 03:19
That's really too bad...I figured EB spent some time on this issue which is why I asked.
4) People who don't have BI would not be able to play this version
You can have rebels without BI, XGM already does that...
There might be only one way to implement this into BI, even though it requires some extra work and a slight degree of unrealism (the acceptability of which is upon the EB team)...
A few factions could have another normally playable faction shadow them (I'm guessing arche seleukeia - ptolemaics or arche seleukeia - parthia and aedui - averni as examples) and then they could have a provincial campaign where they would play with loyalty settings on...
PROS:
- You can give loyalty to some factions
- As it would be optional it wouldn't change the main campaign setup
CONS:
- Might not be very historical in some istances (it could be for the two gallic factions but others are not so clearly shaped)
- Requires a separate provincial campaign for each faction with loyalty
- Might require some extra options in the installer, meaning that you might have to reinstall to get different campaigns
- Requires quite a bit of work on traits
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