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F for Fragging
01-27-2007, 18:08
Hi all,

This is my first post here. I have already been playing for a while, and in this post I'd like to give some comments and ask some questions. The first thing which must be said, EB is the best mod for RTW, better than Rome Total Realism. I have the greatest respect for the EB team, you guys did wonderful work!



Why do you have a lot of “high level” units at the start of a campaign and lose money?

I start a campaign as Makedonia. I notice I start with some Thessalian cavalry and Hetairoi units. The only thing I can recruit at the start are Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai, so how can I start with Hetairoi and Thessalian cavalry? And if I lose money at the start, then what is the point of starting with Hetairoi? I'll have to disband them to avoid going bankrupt.

Retarded settlements on the start of the game

When Alexander the Great started his conquest over half a century ago he had Hetairoi, Pezhetairoi , Hypastai and lots of other “high level” units in his army. Then why can't I, over half a century later at the start of my Makedonian campaign, recruit only Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai? Wouldn't a native MIC level 5 be more realistic in my starting homeland provinces? And why do only Corinth and Athens have stone walls at the start? Were they really the only cities with stone walls, out of all the cities in Greece depicted in the game?

Rebelling settlements which join my side have super experienced garrisons

I was playing as Armenia, and the Seleukids conquered Ani-Kamah, an indepent settlement near my border. The Seleukid garrison was small, and the settlement rebelled and joined my side. The garrison the settlement now had was 12 units with 2 golden chevrons of experience. Isn't this a bit overkill?

Rebelions in settlements work in a strange way

I was playing as Makedonia and attacked Buridava to eliminate the Getai. I won, and exterminated the population. There were now ~500 inhabitants and my army occupying was numbered ~1500. I set the tax rate at very high, next turn there's rioting going on, ~30 citizens killed and 60 of my ~soldiers (!). If I set the tax rate to high the same happens, because then the public order is ~40%. Then I loaded my save game again (I saved after exterminating the inhabitants), set the tax rate to very high and moved all of my army out of the town (I just wanted to raid the place and destroy the Getai faction, nothing more). With the very high tax rate, the ungarrisoned town remained under my control for 3 turns or so (!), there was some rioting, only inhabitants getting killed this time because my army wasn't there anymore.
Isn't this highly unlikely? The inhabitants were outnumbered 1:3 and still managed to kill more of my army during the riot than my army managed to kill rioters, were the the inhabitants uber-Gesatae or what? After I left with my army, shouldn't they have rebelled sooner than 3 turns? And I don't get how public order can be so low if I just massacred the population and have a large army? Can something be done about this, or is this hardcoded in RTW?

Population growth

Just like in vanilla RTW the population growth in EB is ridiculous. In theory you can have an unimportant provincial backwater in Gaul, and have it grow to the max city size if you wait long enough. I have heard of the metropolis mod for Rome Total Realism, which makes population growth more realistic. Can the population growth be fixed in EB please? For example I read the following in "History of Athens" on Wikipedia:

“At its peak, in the 5th and 4th centuries BC, Athens and its suburbs probably had approximately 1.5 million inhabitants. Of these, a large number were slaves or foreign residents (known as metics), who had many political rights, and paid for the right to reside in Athens. Perhaps only 1 or 2% of the population were adult male citizens, eligible to meet and vote in the Assembly and be elected to office. After the conquests of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC the city's population began to decrease as Greeks migrated to the Hellenistic empires in the East.”

Why isn't EB on moddb.com?

This is quite a popular website for modifications/total conversions, so wouldn't it be a good idea to get EB listed on moddb.com? It could make EB more popular, and I would certainly have voted for EB as the 2006 mod of the year.

Attacking archers and skirmishers can see troops through city walls

Just like in vanilla RTW, archers and skirmishers can “see” and effectively attack defending troops behind walls. How is this possible if their sight is blocked by a wall? Can this be changed or is this hardcoded in RTW?

In some situations cavalry can charge a phalanx frontally and win

I was playing as Makedonia, I attacked a Greek settlement. I had 2 units of Hoplitai Haploi, 2 x 160, deployed properly in a phalanx. They were moving through the streets of the town, because the streets were small they covered the entire width of the street, no enemies would have been able to surround them. Then they get charged by the enemy general's bodyguard (don't know exact numbers anymore, maybe 50 or so). My Hoplitai Haploi were standing still, properly deployed with all spears to the front. The enemy charges the spears frontally. Neither my troops or bodyguards have weapon/armor upgrades or experience. After some waiting, all the 160 hoplitai haploi are slaughtered. The next unit was about to meet the same fate, but then I sent my own bodyguard against theirs and killed them.
How can cavalry charge a phalanx frontally, fight through a very long melee and survive?

Plans for making Europa Barbarorum a standalone game?

If I'm correct there are a lot of things in RTW which are hardcoded, which limits the modifications EB can do, right? In The Netherlands, where I live, there is a saying “even if a monkey wears a golden ring, it will remain an ugly thing”. IMHO RTW is the monkey, and EB is the golden ring, EB has a lot of potential but the limits of RTW are detrimental to the quality of the game. I'm seriously annoyed with AI and the behaviour of phalanxes (sometimes phalanxes switch to swords when they are in phalanx mode!) myself. Even with the planned switch of EB to Medieval 2: Total War, there will still be limitations for modders, no? Would it not be great if EB were a standalone game, perhaps open source/creative commons licensed as well, so that there would be no more limitations by RTW? That would allow you guys to make the ultimate warfare simulation strategy game in the era of the Roman Empire. Of course I'm realistic, I don't think that's likely to happen because it would be a ridiculous amount of work, but you have free software 3D engines like Ogre 3D and Crystal Space which could be used. Has it ever been considered by the EB team?

Omanes Alexandrapolites
01-27-2007, 18:34
Hi,

Why do you have a lot of “high level” units at the start of a campaign and lose money?

I start a campaign as Makedonia. I notice I start with some Thessalian cavalry and Hetairoi units. The only thing I can recruit at the start are Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai, so how can I start with Hetairoi and Thessalian cavalry? And if I lose money at the start, then what is the point of starting with Hetairoi? I'll have to disband them to avoid going bankrupt.
At the start of the game's timeframe all factions had their armies deployed in one way or another this gives the player a choice. They either go out conquering with the army they have to get in the green or they have to disband their forces.

Rebelling settlements which join my side have super experienced garrisons

I was playing as Armenia, and the Seleukids conquered Ani-Kamah, an indepent settlement near my border. The Seleukid garrison was small, and the settlement rebelled and joined my side. The garrison the settlement now had was 12 units with 2 golden chevrons of experience. Isn't this a bit overkill?
Yes, but it is hardcoded meaning that it very sadly cannot be changed.


Rebelions in settlements work in a strange way

I was playing as Makedonia and attacked Buridava to eliminate the Getai. I won, and exterminated the population. There were now ~500 inhabitants and my army occupying was numbered ~1500. I set the tax rate at very high, next turn there's rioting going on, ~30 citizens killed and 60 of my ~soldiers (!). If I set the tax rate to high the same happens, because then the public order is ~40%. Then I loaded my save game again (I saved after exterminating the inhabitants), set the tax rate to very high and moved all of my army out of the town (I just wanted to raid the place and destroy the Getai faction, nothing more). With the very high tax rate, the ungarrisoned town remained under my control for 3 turns or so (!), there was some rioting, only inhabitants getting killed this time because my army wasn't there anymore.
Isn't this highly unlikely? The inhabitants were outnumbered 1:3 and still managed to kill more of my army during the riot than my army managed to kill rioters, were the the inhabitants uber-Gesatae or what? After I left with my army, shouldn't they have rebelled sooner than 3 turns? And I don't get how public order can be so low if I just massacred the population and have a large army? Can something be done about this, or is this hardcoded in RTW?
It is all very sadly hardcoded. I presume that the city didn't manage to rebel because there were no buildings that could train troops there. I am very glad to tell you, however, that there is an unofficial mod that fixes this bug, in the EB unofficial modding projects section. It also cures some CTDs.

Population growth

Just like in vanilla RTW the population growth in EB is ridiculous. In theory you can have an unimportant provincial backwater in Gaul, and have it grow to the max city size if you wait long enough. I have heard of the metropolis mod for Rome Total Realism, which makes population growth more realistic. Can the population growth be fixed in EB please? For example I read the following in "History of Athens" on Wikipedia:

“At its peak, in the 5th and 4th centuries BC, Athens and its suburbs probably had approximately 1.5 million inhabitants. Of these, a large number were slaves or foreign residents (known as metics), who had many political rights, and paid for the right to reside in Athens. Perhaps only 1 or 2% of the population were adult male citizens, eligible to meet and vote in the Assembly and be elected to office. After the conquests of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC the city's population began to decrease as Greeks migrated to the Hellenistic empires in the East.”
This problem will probably be fixed in the futre.


Attacking archers and skirmishers can see troops through city walls

Just like in vanilla RTW, archers and skirmishers can “see” and effectively attack defending troops behind walls. How is this possible if their sight is blocked by a wall? Can this be changed or is this hardcoded in RTW?
You answered you own question my freind. Sorry, but, yes it is hardcoded.

Plans for making Europa Barbarorum a standalone game?

If I'm correct there are a lot of things in RTW which are hardcoded, which limits the modifications EB can do, right? In The Netherlands, where I live, there is a saying “even if a monkey wears a golden ring, it will remain an ugly thing”. IMHO RTW is the monkey, and EB is the golden ring, EB has a lot of potential but the limits of RTW are detrimental to the quality of the game. I'm seriously annoyed with AI and the behaviour of phalanxes (sometimes phalanxes switch to swords when they are in phalanx mode!) myself. Even with the planned switch of EB to Medieval 2: Total War, there will still be limitations for modders, no? Would it not be great if EB were a standalone game, perhaps open source/creative commons licensed as well, so that there would be no more limitations by RTW? That would allow you guys to make the ultimate warfare simulation strategy game in the era of the Roman Empire. Of course I'm realistic, I don't think that's likely to happen because it would be a ridiculous amount of work, but you have free software 3D engines like Ogre 3D and Crystal Space which could be used. Has it ever been considered by the EB team?
Sadly the EB team is just a group of armature modders, not a professional gaming team. They would have to give up alot to do this and in the end would it all sell?

I hope this helps you and cheers!

Ludens
01-27-2007, 18:38
1) Why do you have a lot of “high level” units at the start of a campaign and lose money?
2) Retarded settlements on the start of the game
3) Rebelling settlements which join my side have super experienced garrisons
4) Rebelions in settlements work in a strange way
5) Attacking archers and skirmishers can see troops through city walls
6) Population growth
7) Plans for making Europa Barbarorum a standalone game?
1) The A.I. is rather bad at teching up and concentrating it's forces, so all factions need to have a couple of decent armies ready to prevent the human player from overruning them early on.

2) Agree absolutely, but some people concider teching up half the fun.

2-5) Hardcoded, I am afraid.

6) Agree, but IIRC the team is looking into it.

7) It is a nice dream, but nothing more I think. Actually creating a game is quite a bit more difficult than modding it. There are very, very few people with real programming expertise in the R:TW community, and creating an engine from scratch (because they cannot use elements of R:TW due to copyright) is a very big job.


Edit: ah, Omanes beat me to it.

-Praetor-
01-27-2007, 19:17
Why isn't EB on moddb.com?

This is quite a popular website for modifications/total conversions, so wouldn't it be a good idea to get EB listed on moddb.com? It could make EB more popular, and I would certainly have voted for EB as the 2006 mod of the year.




It is, check out:

http://mods.moddb.com/6520/europa-barbarorum/

Cheers!!!

F for Fragging
01-28-2007, 12:53
Thank you for your replies everybody. Stupid I didn't see EB on moddb, I guess I missed it because I was only looking for "released" mods, while EB is "public beta". If I knew it was already there i would have definitely voted for it in the mod of the year 2006 contest.

Teleklos Archelaou
01-28-2007, 17:01
I looked at that moddb site - and I think you're right F. We have a page (that was pointed out), but the mod itself is not uploaded onto the site.

O'ETAIPOS
01-28-2007, 19:48
Retarded settlements on the start of the game

When Alexander the Great started his conquest over half a century ago he had Hetairoi, Pezhetairoi , Hypastai and lots of other “high level” units in his army. Then why can't I, over half a century later at the start of my Makedonian campaign, recruit only Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai? Wouldn't a native MIC level 5 be more realistic in my starting homeland provinces? And why do only Corinth and Athens have stone walls at the start? Were they really the only cities with stone walls, out of all the cities in Greece depicted in the game?



at least for Makedonia it is not exactly true. During 40 years of wars after Alexander's death many armies marched through it and hundreds of thousends of men were drafted. And then Galatians finished the job and ravaged the land.
In 270 Makedonia was a wreck of once great kingdom. Antigonos Gonatas was fighting wars with only mercenaries and some low skill levy. Makedonia never fully recovered from the wounds of the wars of late IV and early III century.

HumphreysCraig00
01-28-2007, 20:08
In some situations cavalry can charge a phalanx frontally and win

I was playing as Makedonia, I attacked a Greek settlement. I had 2 units of Hoplitai Haploi, 2 x 160, deployed properly in a phalanx. They were moving through the streets of the town, because the streets were small they covered the entire width of the street, no enemies would have been able to surround them. Then they get charged by the enemy general's bodyguard (don't know exact numbers anymore, maybe 50 or so). My Hoplitai Haploi were standing still, properly deployed with all spears to the front. The enemy charges the spears frontally. Neither my troops or bodyguards have weapon/armor upgrades or experience. After some waiting, all the 160 hoplitai haploi are slaughtered. The next unit was about to meet the same fate, but then I sent my own bodyguard against theirs and killed them.
How can cavalry charge a phalanx frontally, fight through a very long melee and survive?

I have found from my experience as carthage marching thousands of vanilla sacredband soldiers everywhere that;


When in a town, if you arrange your phalanxe to cover the entire street (Wall to wall) the phalanxe starts being stupid and moving out of formation and barley attacking (I dont know why)

I lost 5 Sacred band to 2 numidian generals before I realised what was happening.

The solution that worked for me is instead of wall to wall make it so the entire phalanxe fits in the road just touching the edges of the road, the enemy generally wont flood around your phalanx and thier instances of stupidity were reduced dramatically for me.

And about them all changing to swords for no reason, this happens when they think the shield wall had been broken, although they are generally wrong and do it too early (im told it used to be better but a patch made the phalanxes stupider, ive only ever played 1.5 though so I dont know), but theres no real way to stop them