Skins dont look too good [Archive]

keravnos

01-28-2007, 13:31

First of all, allow me to respectfully disagree. You must take into account that RTW was built with the limitations of the time. There are only so many things you can do with a 256X256 texture. :wall:

For the record, I just love what the 3dmodellers/skinners have produced. I mean look at the Lusotana preview, and tell me, in all honesty, have you seen better RTW models/skins everywhere? If so tell me. I 'll download it in a heartbeat

Also, don't forget, this is very late age of iron. Most of the medieval "cool" looking stuff would come centuries into the future. Which brings us to point no. 2...

Second,... you must be rotten by the eyecandy of M2TW. I can only daydream about what our guys can produce with a 1024X1024 texture allowance per unit, with all the different shield, heads, and torsos included!
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

In laymans' terms that means...

16 times the texturing space....

That's why M2TW looks so good. CA has done it again!

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 15:52

EB is much prettier than M2:TW from what I have seen of that game's screenshots. Not necessarily more detailed, but much more pretty!

ForVictory

01-28-2007, 16:17

Well ive seen screenshots of RTR and especially XGM and they look stunning. If EB had those kinda units and weather effects then EB would be even more amazing then it is now.

caius britannicus

01-28-2007, 16:22

Also, don't forget, this is very late age of iron. Most of the medieval "cool" looking stuff would come centuries into the future. Which brings us to point no. 2...

Second,... you must be rotten by the eyecandy of M2TW. I can only daydream about what our guys can produce with a 1024X1024 texture allowance per unit, with all the different shield, heads, and torsos included!
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

In laymans' terms that means...

16 times the texturing space....

That's why M2TW looks so good. CA has done it again!

M2 doesn't use 1024x1024 for each individual soldier. Each 1024x1024 texture file contains up to SIX (6) textures for the soldiers. That includes all 6 heads, all 6 body textures, legs, hoods, helmets, quivers and sheaths. Its not exactly anywhere near 16 times the texturing space.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 16:23

In my opinion XGM's skins cannot really be compared to EB's. They are something totally different, more of a vanilla style of skin. RTR's put up a good fight, but they often lose to the mighty EB.

ForVictory

01-28-2007, 16:25

no why?

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 16:32

EB:
https://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3041/loricatiscutaripresentaly5.jpg

Vs RTR:

https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4531/unit1cr0.jpg

So who wins my dear gentlemen? Same unit, just as beautiful as each other in my opinion.

ForVictory

01-28-2007, 16:43

Just look at these screens from XGM, the colours, the colours...Really nice to watch the battle.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/Mortyr/sacredband015mn.jpg

Teleklos Archelaou

01-28-2007, 16:52

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 16:56

c'mon. seriously. A thread about EB skins "not looking too good"? You tell us where there is a problem in the units in terms of why they did not look like it, or buzz off. We aren't here to make children's toys that shine and have purty colors, we are here to make the units look like they did 2,200 years ago.
Not exactly as I would have put it, but well said.

And by the way, ForVictory, the image you have shown has either received a photoshop job or it was produced on a computer that has higher specifications than most people's here and probably than yours has. On my PC, EB skins don't look as beautiful as they appear in other people's EB screenshots of the same units, but what the heck - I don't play EB for the eye-candy!

Thaatu

01-28-2007, 17:09

Most mediterranean units have white clothes because it reflects sunlight and because dyes were more or less expensive. It might not be as pleasing to the eye as richly coloured clothes, but it's realistic. The textures themselves are highly detailed.

Eduorius

01-28-2007, 17:09

Maybe can be a problem with your videocard.

My units looked blurry and had peg legs, but it was something about the videocard working in low quality.

Olaf The Great

01-28-2007, 18:41

Just look at these screens from XGM, the colours, the colours...Really nice to watch the battle.
They look like slightly modified RTW skins...

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

01-28-2007, 18:42

Just look at these screens from XGM, the colours, the colours...Really nice to watch the battle.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/Mortyr/sacredband015mn.jpg

Yes, pretty but totally inaccurate. EB is not about eye candy but realism. We will make the units look more drab and boring than they already are if that is what is required for historical accuracy.

antiochus epiphanes

01-28-2007, 18:44

purty.
down hea we say " purdy":laugh4:

Sarcasm

01-28-2007, 19:00

That Scutari is a real good piece of fantasy skinning.

MeinPanzer

01-28-2007, 19:42

EB is my fav mod for RTW but i must admit that i dont like the skins of the units very much, there not as colourfull and detailed compared to some other mods. I know its supposed to be a realistic mod but some extra eye candy wouldnt hurt for EB...

I really, really disagree... having played RTR and one or two other mods briefly, EB got the units just right. The colours are not too bright so as to appear like the units just got dressed in their finest linens that morning and the detail is perfect. The slightly faded colours look perfect; how do you think clothing made with natural dyes would look after spending days upon days in the sun, rain, snow, and mud?

Ypoknons

01-28-2007, 19:57

MeinPanzer

01-28-2007, 20:06

One question to have to ask is whether the people of the time had dyes that vibrant, whether it was affordable to dye their clothing in such a manner, and whether they in fact did so. One of the reasons why I like the Camillian Roman units so much is how plain they are - in 272, the Romans were a small, and not particularly rich, nation.

It's very clear that the Ptolemies, Seleucids, and Antigonids had some very, very flashy armies- the sources go out of their way to say so a numer of times.

And the Romans are only plain if you think red is plain ;)

Geoffrey S

01-28-2007, 20:12

Also, note that the XGM screenshot shows two highly elite units clashing; not really a representative screenshot. Sure, plain militia units in EB may look rather dull, but isn't that the point? Stick some high level units on the battlefield and it's entirely different; in fact, I like the fact that better units are distinguishable as such on the battlefield.

HumphreysCraig00

01-28-2007, 20:35

I dont mean to offend anyone with this but, if it wil offend people it will.

Anyway, graphics (textures especially) are definately the weakpoint of EB.

I have played Vanilla, BI, Vanilla using some RTR models and textures, XGM, and EB.

And EB is 2nd worst looking, with BI (Worst looking) yapping at its almighty feet, RTR is good but XGM is astounding looking, my best modded skins were based on xgm skins.

But as with the original RTW, which had crap graphics to be honest, its not the graphics that make the game, its the game.

HumphreysCraig00

01-28-2007, 20:40

Maybe can be a problem with your videocard.

My units looked blurry and had peg legs, but it was something about the videocard working in low quality.

I forgot to answer this in my last post.

they look like that because you have unit detail set for lowest in your graphics options, set it to low to give them real feet and hands and set it to highest to get reasonably good looking skins

Imperator

01-28-2007, 20:41

So who wins my dear gentlemen. Same unit, just as nice as each other in my opinion.

2 Questions to ask in determining which skin is better:
1) which one looks cooler?
--personally, I think they're both cool- although the EB one is certainly
pretty...unique. The RTR one doesn't look very indigenous Iberian to
me, but has a pretty Roman look to it. But that is 100% moot
because it's personal preference. whichever looks nicer to you wins
in this catagory
2) which one is accurate?
--can either team cite where they learned about what this unit should
look like? If there is a description of them in some source I don't
know about, then let's see it and then we'll be able to say whose is
more realistic and whose is more fantasy.

if you only care about #1, then what's the point of starting a topic? You can't convince someone that something looks cool- it either does or doesn't. Besides, folk round here (and at RTR too) don't just care about "coolness" (which is arbitrary and completely based on perspective) but about Accuracy (quantifiable and gradable). It depends how important each one is.

EB has a 25% coolness factor and 75% accuracy factor from what I can tell. They do their best to make cool units, and when there's room for the imagination they make some pretty sick skins, but never at the cost of history. RTR has an even 50-50 split. They make units more realistic, but not at the cost of eye-candy, and vice-versa. The result is that EB has more realistic skins, but RTR has skins some people think are cooler. In my mind, EB wins because while there's no way to prove whose skins are cooler (and opinion is pretty evenly divided over the issue anyway) EB's historical-ness gives it that extra edge. But then, I've been wrong before- can someone show us the source for that unit so we can see whose is (really) more realistic? Just because EB is usually more realistic doesn't mean RTR can't/won't catch up.

abou

01-28-2007, 20:43

:inquisitive:
EB has some of the best skins I have seen; bringing a grittiness to the atmosphere that is lacking in a number of mods. Are we really looking at the same mod?

MeinPanzer

01-28-2007, 20:50

2) which one is accurate?
--can either team cite where they learned about what this unit should
look like? If there is a description of them in some source I don't
know about, then let's see it and then we'll be able to say whose is
more realistic and whose is more fantasy.

The overall look of both units is fine, but the details of the EB units look more accurate, so I'd go with EB on that count.

Olaf The Great

01-28-2007, 20:57

Yes, pretty but totally inaccurate. EB is not about eye candy but realism. We will make the units look more drab and boring than they already are if that is what is required for historical accuracy.I actually think the sacred band one is ugly...It really is.

Spectral

01-28-2007, 21:04

guess the loricati scutari aren't yet in 0.80? They would have made a fine complement to my iberian assault infantry in my later carthie armies :)

edit : it seems afterall they're available, just have to build higher the native MIC, too bad I changed early to type II govs...

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 21:46

I actually think the sacred band one is ugly...It really is.
It's not too bad, not as good as the amazing EB sacred band, but it's still very nice. Everybody's work is to somebody's liking.

Xtiaan72

01-28-2007, 21:47

The EB skins are beautiful. How could anyone think they weren't? This is simply......a really bad opinion. I really want to know what is in the Koolade they are drinking.Does anyone think that EB would get the constant stream of converts that it gets, if the skins were weak? No way. It's called a realistic attention to detail. Skins that actually teach people something about the times. God forbid.

paullus

01-28-2007, 21:56

puhlease, those XGM ones are based off vanilla skins! Look at the shoulder pads on the cuirass, or the helmets! The Spartans are wearing Corinthian helmets! C'mon people...since when did bright colors = quality skins?

Or heck, to compare some EB and RTR units (and be mindful that I really like the RTR polybian romans), say in the faction Baktria. Just try to be truthful and say that a single one of the RTR units looks better than an EB equivalent. The Agema? Not even close. Or what about the Indohellenic units?

Or, to make a really, really, really strong point, how about those Celtic units? When did RTR get non-vanilla Celtic units? XGM? How do they compare? Look at some of those Casse units and tell me they don't look amazin.

HumphreysCraig00

01-28-2007, 22:06

Since i may not have described my opinion too well heres a pic doing it

EB unit qualisty is highest
Vanilla Unit quality is Low
XGM quality is highest.

https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2966/thingytz3.jpg

Another place where it is noticable which I forgot to put in the pic is, compare the folds under the XGMs neck to the folds in the EB sleeves, tell me honestly which you think is better.l

Also I dont know if you can notice it but the EB guys are stabbing themselves in the head lol

Birka Viking

01-28-2007, 22:13

Well I have never seen some better units then EBs...Do u realy have your glasses on=???...LOL

HumphreysCraig00

01-28-2007, 22:26

Well I have never seen some better units then EBs...Do u realy have your glasses on=???...LOL

To be honest I think the pic speaks for itself, if you think that eb unit is graphically superior to the other 2 there's no hope for you.

And thats about typical, as far as ive seen, of eb units.

Xtiaan72

01-28-2007, 22:32

The colors in XGM are horrible...Really ugly. And look at the shoulder. It's deformed. You could pick apart any of the models. But at least the EB one resembles something that would be on a battlefield.

Sarcasm

01-28-2007, 22:37

Dunno how you got those guys to have the spears running through their heads. Must be your asinine comments. :rolleyes:

Here's the unit on my version...

https://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6083/gggyd8.jpg

HumphreysCraig00

01-28-2007, 22:43

I am not stating that its not historically accurate, I dont care about that (in this context).

The debate as far as im concerned is simply about the quality of the rendering of the texture. How well the 3rd dimension is represented, the detail (even if ahistorical) quality in the texture, etc..

Plus none of the models are totally anatomically correct, the crazy shoulders are due to trying to keep the polys down.

I bet if I look at a topless EB model its shoulders will be messed up (I hope lo0l)

Also its a different unit youve got there, the spears on the one ive got are only just higher than thier heads.

Teleklos Archelaou

01-28-2007, 22:58

Can we please keep from putting down *any* mods here? If someone likes EB skins, here is a good place to complement them. If you like XGM skins, please go to their forum and tell them that. If you like RTR skins, it would be awful if you didn't go and praise their guys for creating them on their forum or their website. But badmouthing other mods on EB fora does not help us any guys. Further, by saying another mod's skins are better than EB's, and if we do not agree with the statement, then that puts us in the unfortunate position of needing to say that ours are better than someone else's. Well, obviously we think ours are the best - of course. I don't know of a single EB member that doesn't think our units are better than anyone else's. That is our opinion, and other mods probably feel the same way about their own work. But by slamming our units and saying that someone else's (and specifying the other mod(s)) are better, makes it hard for us to say anything about it, other than "we think ours are accurate and aesthetically pleasing as well." So how about not putting us in a hard place here guys. Lay off the comparisons if possible. Fans are probably allowed a little more latitude (than team members) in expressing their opinions, but let's not go too far and keep in mind that all mods are done by volunteers for everyone's enjoyment. Honestly, it's usually people who couldn't make a unit to save their life who badmouth modders' work and modders in general know (or should know) better than to go down that path.

caius britannicus

01-28-2007, 23:02

2 Questions to ask in determining which skin is better:
1) which one looks cooler?
--personally, I think they're both cool- although the EB one is certainly
pretty...unique. The RTR one doesn't look very indigenous Iberian to
me, but has a pretty Roman look to it. But that is 100% moot
because it's personal preference. whichever looks nicer to you wins
in this catagory
2) which one is accurate?
--can either team cite where they learned about what this unit should
look like? If there is a description of them in some source I don't
know about, then let's see it and then we'll be able to say whose is
more realistic and whose is more fantasy.

if you only care about #1, then what's the point of starting a topic? You can't convince someone that something looks cool- it either does or doesn't. Besides, folk round here (and at RTR too) don't just care about "coolness" (which is arbitrary and completely based on perspective) but about Accuracy (quantifiable and gradable). It depends how important each one is.

I should point out that they aren't the same unit. The rtr one is a celtiberian scutarii not a lusitanian while if I understand correctly the EB one is. So the RTR one is celtic in style with a Montefortino helmet and scutum with pilums.

I should also point out that historical accuracy is completely arbitrary. No one can really say one or the other is more accurate. In many cases RTR has some fairly fantasized units and the same is true for EB. So in the end it comes down to personal preference.

HumphreysCraig00

01-28-2007, 23:04

I can have a semi decent whack at making a unit lol.

No the main thing was people saying conclusively EBs were better, without putting any reasons other than historical accuracy.

I was hoping if people were able to put what they saw as faults in eb textures, then your texture artists may be able to iron them out of thier later work.

Like for instance when I draw, (which I can barely do lol) I am happy to be told anything that may improve my drawings in the future.

Sarcasm

01-28-2007, 23:07

There, Thureophoroi of the Koinon.

https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8962/fffiu5.jpg

Fondor_Yards

01-28-2007, 23:12

I should point out that they aren't the same unit. The rtr one is a celtiberian scutarii not a lusitanian while if I understand correctly the EB one is.

It's a 'normal' iberian unit, not a lusitanian version. You can recruit them in everywhere in spain but lusitiania.

And HumphreysCraig00, if you want to compare models, compare ones that look somewhat alike, like eb hypaspistai to xgm sacred band. They are of at least equal quality.

Xtiaan72

01-28-2007, 23:22

No the main thing was people saying conclusively EBs were better, without putting any reasons other than historical accuracy.

To aim for historical accuracy....That's as valid as any other reason to like a skin. ( Or to make one.) And the attention to that sort of thing is really what makes EB stand out and "WOWS" people.

Teleklos Archelaou

01-28-2007, 23:23

And HumphreysCraig00, if you want to compare models, compare ones that look somewhat alike, like eb hypaspistai to xgm sacred band. They are of at least equal quality.
Amen FY. :laugh4: At least it wasn't numidian skirmishers compared to sacred band! (the numidian skirmisher are probably the one unit we agree most on needs reworking).

Sarcasm

01-28-2007, 23:23

I should point out that they aren't the same unit. The rtr one is a celtiberian scutarii not a lusitanian while if I understand correctly the EB one is. So the RTR one is celtic in style with a Montefortino helmet and scutum with pilums.

I should also point out that historical accuracy is completely arbitrary. No one can really say one or the other is more accurate. In many cases RTR has some fairly fantasized units and the same is true for EB. So in the end it comes down to personal preference.

Hmmm...no. Ours are of the Edetani or Costetani for example, and they're fully attested by pictoral evidence as well as sculptures. The only part that can be argued is the lower mail part. They can however be recruited by the Lusitani of course, and Carthage equips it with the usual heavy infantry kit.

The style of helmet presented there would be completely out of fashion by our mod's starting date in Celtiberia. It's an early 4th century example. The more recognizable shapes of the later montefortino would definitely be more adequate or a slightly taller one, but never that high. All helmet finds that I know of are of bronze too btw. Metal greaves and pteryges (?) are unnatested.

Sarcasm

01-28-2007, 23:25

No the main thing was people saying conclusively EBs were better, without putting any reasons other than historical accuracy.

Nope, I'm flat out saying EB's technically better. As well as historical if you will.

Kull

01-28-2007, 23:27

And HumphreysCraig00, if you want to compare models, compare ones that look somewhat alike, like eb hypaspistai to xgm sacred band. They are of at least equal quality.

Don't even get me started on that pathetic "comparison":

"Let's compare the San Diego Zoo to the El Paso Zoo! Here's a mangy hyena from the San Diego Zoo....look how ugly it is! And here's a Beautiful Bengal Tiger from the El Paso Zoo! Big, strong, great color and beautiful muscle tone. As this clearly shows, all the animals in the El Paso Zoo are FAR BETTER than those in the San Diego Zoo!"

Blechh. Can someone loan me one of those vomiting smilies? After trying to stomach the arguments of that fool, I really need to use it now.

Teleklos Archelaou

01-28-2007, 23:31

Sarcasm

01-28-2007, 23:37

Don't even get me started on that pathetic "comparison":

"Let's compare the San Diego Zoo to the El Paso Zoo! Here's a mangy hyena from the San Diego Zoo....look how ugly it is! And here's a Beautiful Bengal Tiger from the El Paso Zoo! Big, strong, great color and beautiful muscle tone. As this clearly shows, all the animals in the El Paso Zoo are FAR BETTER than those in the San Diego Zoo!"

Blechh. Can someone loan me one of those vomiting smilies? After trying to stomach the arguments of that fool, I really need to use it now.

Even if the Thureophoroi are more mundane, I still think they look better than the elite units presented by him.

Sdragon

01-28-2007, 23:51

The Thureophoroi and Vanilla Hoplites are also selected which gives them the 'glowing' effect, which of course reduces texture quality. ie, reducing textures shadows and removing minor details. Can't see most the pattern on his chest in the screen shot.

The Persian Cataphract

01-29-2007, 00:04

Ok, I think it's a good moment to calm down, before this escalates into a pissing contest. There are those who like bright colours, shiny stuff on the expense of historical accuracy. Fine by my book. There are those who think bright colours are too much, that's fine by my book too. To me, EB features the finest units, because it is more near the earth than any other mod, and the bright colours in my opinion are perhaps "fresh" at first, but lose in credibility. It's like a piece of cake. The XGM mod looks like a fancy cake with expensive icing, but it tastes like potato-salad to me. It does not leave a lasting impression to me, and it feels bizarre.

EB reserves the shiny stuff for the truly elite units, and the beauty here is that the team has poured so much effort into making all units look as diverse as possible, in spite of technical limitations. The cavalry, well to be fair many units miss the fine touch of newer horse models and bridles, but it makes up with diversity and credibility and that is a combination that strikes a chord within me. All those thureophoroi, thorakitai and similar units, it emphasizes the beauty of EB. In XGM, taking a look beneath the bright colours, reveals recycled Vanilla units, just patched with booming colours. This is not to downplay the XGM mod which is very entertaining in its own right, but comparing EB to XGM is like comparing an apple to an orange. Two very different flavours, the decision merely based on appeal. I think Kull said it the best. You can't compare a magnificent stallion to a roan donkey.

HumphreysCraig00

01-29-2007, 00:10

You guys seem really hurt by constructive criticism, it would be funny i was in the mood...

-And HumphreysCraig00, if you want to compare models, compare ones that look somewhat alike, like eb hypaspistai to xgm sacred band. They are of at least equal quality.

I did,. I compared the eb model to its closest vanilla analogue.
And the vanilla one is superior.

I only chose the XGM Sacred band as it is the worst XGM model, so I wanted to give the EB model the best chance against it.

-To aim for historical accuracy....That's as valid as any other reason to like a skin. ( Or to make one.) And the attention to that sort of thing is really what makes EB stand out and "WOWS" people.

Ebs main aim may be realism, but the point of the thread was THE EB SKINS DONT LOOK GOOD, not that they are unrealistic, it is possible to have a good looking and realistic model, so saying 'We went for realism not for looks' is a crap defence.

-Amen FY. FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=" At least it wasn't numidian skirmishers compared to sacred band! (the numidian skirmisher are probably the one unit we agree most on needs reworking).

I chose that one as it is fairly representative of the EB models ive seen thus far, is there worse ones?

-I'm flat out saying EB's technically better.

Please define technically better.

As I have been judging by, the crispness of the textures, which eb loses on, everything in eb is just a little blurry, blurry doesnt equal worn/realistic, it equals blurry.

I have been judging on the illusion of a 3rd dimension created by the texture, which on most of the EB models ive seen is fairly poor.

Sarcasm

01-29-2007, 00:17

You're like a bad case of herpes.

Where's the constructive criticism? You're stating your opinion, I've stated mine. You don't like it - we get it. Leave.

Justiciar

01-29-2007, 00:19

Wow. Some comments in this thread border on nationalism. :laugh4:

I can see what Humphreys is saying - unless I've missinterpreted it. It's a question of shading on some units, more so than the skin in it's entirety.

Teleklos Archelaou

01-29-2007, 00:27

It sounds like XGM is the mod for you mate. Enjoy it. You have stated you like the worst of their units more than ours. Please go praise them on their mod fora and leave us alone. We are hardly hurt - just posting real screenshots of ours (those by Sarcasm and myself) certainly and really does makes me thrilled. In the end, we will not be redoing all our units to fit WoW color schemes or your personal tastes. We are happy with most of them, but yes, a few we will be redoing (like the Numidian Skirmishers). Certainly not the one you have picked out though: the detail, variance, and realism all found above in those three images of thureophoroi and thorakitai shows exactly the strengths of EB, and we are more than pleased with them.

Boyar Son

01-29-2007, 00:29

The barbarian units deserve recognition. The shields, troops, and armor add to the overall look. This mod has great skins, take a look at the pezheteroi.

EB's units has styles that would make womens magazines embarrased:yes:

Geoffrey S

01-29-2007, 00:31

Nope, Humphrys is still not making any sense; perhaps if he posted truly representative units, didn't manipulate his screenshots, didn't attack strawman-arguments, and in general actually gave some constructive criticism (ie. how to make the skins better, what precisely is wrong) in a more polite fashion he would be worth listening to or replying to. As it is, he's not, and this topic is only worth it for the pretty pictures posted by Sarcasm. Looks great to me.

Dooz

01-29-2007, 00:35

Hey, at least we got a bunch of awesome pics from this thread. I for one loved that one of all the thureophoroi and the thorakitai. Can't get enough EB pics I always say. And the Lusotanann? Mmmm, mmmmm.

-edit-
Whoa, that's funny. Geoffrey and I posted the same sentiments about pics in this thread at same time. In any case, I think Humphrey's biggest point EB can take from all this is that maybe some units could use a little more shading. Now hell, I don't know anything about anything about texturing or drawing or whatnot. But if that's what makes units look better, then go for it.

The Persian Cataphract

01-29-2007, 00:38

Ok, Humphrey we got it already. You have iterated your criticism a few times, and though not too widely appreciated, we get your point. I don't share your opinion. You are still comparing apples with oranges. Compare the Hye Sparapet/Grivpanvar to the Vanilla cataphracts, or the XGM Greek armoured cavalry. You can't possibly say that either of EB cataphract elites look worse than any of the others on the technical basis.

Boyar Son

01-29-2007, 00:39

As long as we're talking about pics, put up some Polybian Romani

Please?

I would put some pics but I need practice...:embarassed:

EDIT: oops! still need to install EB...

Zarax

01-29-2007, 00:49

As XGM team member I guess I could have my word on that.
My personal point of view (which I think is shared by DimeBagGo the main artist and project leader) is pretty much the same as EB team, you cannot compare the two mods...

Even though XGM took away most fantasy sides from Vanilla its aim is not towards giving to the end user a refined historically accurate experience but rather to use the full potential of RTW and BI engine features giving a smooth and balanced gameplay, with EB being sometimes a source of inspiration (I just love the KH roster and I'm trying to turn XGM GCS a step towards it) and absolutely no wish of antagonism.
In that you could compare XGM more to something like DarthMod than EB, pointing more towards the gameplay side.

Texturing wise (BTW, that sacred band is not really representative, many XGM units are pretty much the same as vanilla as we wanted to preserve the original look and feel building over it) it's pretty much the same, with militias textured in a simpler style and elites richly detailed in order to give them a more imposing look over the rest.

That said, the XGM team admires with awe the amount of work and love put into EB and we wish you guys the best luck into bringing your project to its full completion.

XGM and EB are planned and proceeds in different ways, so there is absolutely no need and no point to stir any kind of competition towards the two as collaboration where possible should be the way...

I hope that this closes the topic, after all de gustibus non disputandum est and if you like some things from both worlds nobody prevents you to create your personal breed while both mods are in their own mod folders...

Teleklos Archelaou

01-29-2007, 00:57

Good post Zarax. Best of luck to the XGM mod and mod team also, and thanks for the kind words.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-29-2007, 01:16

Please define technically better.

As I have been judging by, the crispness of the textures, which eb loses on, everything in eb is just a little blurry, blurry doesnt equal worn/realistic, it equals blurry.

I have been judging on the illusion of a 3rd dimension created by the texture, which on most of the EB models ive seen is fairly poor.Well, in case you don't know or haven't noticed, many RTW mods use 512x512 textures like Res Gestae, while EB limits itself to 256x256 for reasons of PC spec accessibility. So, that is the reason why you find EB's textures blurry, not because of skinning technique or historical accuracy reasons.

Stormy

01-29-2007, 01:27

Everything looks fine to me. I play at 1600X1200 resolution and video settings maxed.

HumphreysCraig00

01-29-2007, 02:08

Ok so im not saying XGM is the better mod, its not (no offence intended zarax but you may take offense like these guys did).

I am trying to help, often the best way to improve your technique is simply to be told what you could do better, thats what im trying to do

Heres the fair comparison you wanted.

Its a comparison of the XGM spartans and the seleukid Hypaspists.

Both 256x256 and both with reasonable amounts of effort put on them

https://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7629/comparisonyt9.th.jpg (https://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparisonyt9.jpg)

Im not saying this mod is crap, im simply saying your units dont look as good, showing you how they dont look as good and letting you figure out how you want to procede from there.

Please stop thinking im attacking the mod, im simply trying to help it improve.

This is my favourite mod so anything I can do to help it improve,

spirit_of_rob

01-29-2007, 02:16

Those are ATGs spartans and yes they are awesome, i however know he spent a LOT of time on them that we simply do not have fpr the sheer number of units in this mod

as far as i know ATG ahs made 4 spartan variants and 1 greek general other vanilla greek factions simpley received a quick re-colour to fi the new model.

Sarcasm

01-29-2007, 02:17

As long as we're talking about pics, put up some Polybian Romani

Please?

I would put some pics but I need practice...:embarassed:

EDIT: oops! still need to install EB...

'Ere ya go...

................................................Hastati......................................Princip es......................................Triari

https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1702/romansjg8.jpg

Dooz

01-29-2007, 02:36

Yikes, wouldn't want to be standing opposite that. Death machine.

Humphrey, good post. I think the problem is the way you presented your ideas for most of the conversation. You gotta' understand that EB is a very big deal to a lot of people, especially the modders who've been working on it for years. It is personal and people tend to get very defensive over things they are passionate about. And it didn't help that your posts weren't put as "nicely" as they could have been. Or even if not nice, just well thought out or constructed. For example your title, "Skins dont look too good". Now I'm sure there's another title out there somewhere that would have worked a lot better.

I think it's a good thing you're trying to help the mod, and you even stated it's your favorite mod, the only problem was the presentation I suppose. Most modders tend not to respond well to criticism, and that's just human nature I suppose. Touchy subjects should be handled with care.

abou

01-29-2007, 02:51

That's not exactly a fair comparison. With your screenshots, both those units don't look too good. Are you running at 800x600?

Also, here are two 3D renders of Hypaspists from earlier EB preview threads:
https://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hypaspistaimacedon4vo.jpg
https://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hypaspistaiseleucid4gd.jpg

Also, remember that EB textures are more compressed for better performance... although it would be nice to have a version downloadable where that is not the case.

spirit_of_rob

01-29-2007, 03:01

Also, remember that EB textures are more compressed for better performance... although it would be nice to have a version downloadable where that is not the case.

hehe and when would u like us to find the time to do that :dizzy2:

Wardo

01-29-2007, 03:05

FWIW, the eye-offending EB thureophoroi model variants by noob Spartan Warrior (aka, Summer 2006 TWC Best Skinner/Modeller):
Greek ----------------------- Mecedonian --------------------- Epirote ----------------------- Ptolemaic ----------------------- Pontic
https://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4045/17ym1.jpg
Seleucid ----------------------- Baktrian ----------------------- Merc ----------------------- Rebel ----------------------- Carthage Libyans
https://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4605/21wh2.jpg

and the Thorakitai,
Greek ----------------------- Epirote ---------------------- Seleucid ----------------------- Baktrian ---------------------- Carthage Late Libyans
https://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4596/34lk.jpg

WOW! Can I keep these images? I complained that in Medieval 2 all units look exactly the same. I mean exactly, the armor is literally the same, only the color of the cloth changes. And I used EB as the example of the contrary.

This is EXACTLY what I meant to express! Just look at these gorgeous thorakitai! Each of them has a different armor, NOT JUST IN COLOR! But in kind, type or style. This is extremely interesting! I cannot express how much I love it! Yes, those cheap Carthaginians copied the Greek one, but there are still differences in shield and color of the helmet. It is most impressive to accomplish this with texturing, using the same model. You increase the number of different units while preserving unit slots.

EB staff, if you're reading this, let it be known, whoever had the idea to put different armor on similar units, not just in color or adornment but in kind, and whoever created them, are all geniuses! :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: 2 Thumbs and two toes up.

I have learned about this XGM mod now and from this thread. Seems you guys have managed to create a firestorm over a very simple question: should EB copy XGM's textures? Can XGM's units be shared over different factions like the Thorakitai above? I suppose that's the main problem after historical accuracy/acceptability.

No doubt they look impressive. Didn't EB import the Romans? If the EB leadership (whoever they are) thought necessary I'm sure they'd see if any arrangements could be made. If anything, we players could create an un-official mod-pack with different textures ourselves instead of sitting on our asses and whining. Sleeves up.

Relax. :beam: Chill pills for everybody on me. :sweatdrop:

abou

01-29-2007, 03:11

When is a good question.

Probably as an alternate 1.0 release after the final for those of us with the computer to handle such larger textures. I imagine that those who did the skinning for the units still have the uncompressed images somewhere; so all that needs to be done is to have them compressed to the right size, placed in the right directory, and then compiled for the .exe install. Granted, that will take a lot of time for ~500 units, but hey, it would be sweet.

Too bad you would probably need to do it one at time, but if you could get someone to write a bash script it could be done pretty easily; just take a long time.

PSYCHO V

01-29-2007, 03:23

..im simply saying your units dont look as good

I think someone's been doing a little too much wacky-backy. :hippie:

:yes:

Lord Gruffles

01-29-2007, 04:06

Teleklos Archelaou

01-29-2007, 04:13

"poor"..."poor"..."poor". Sorry, call me an ass or blind but I don't see a lot of difference in those places you point out how "poor", how much "a blur", how much the "splotches" of the EB unit looks. The only one I can see difference in is the wrist guards - sorry we aren't using 24k gold on ours mate, but the spartan ones look like they are of a precious metal. Look at the greaves on the images I posted - those things are works of art. The shot you used is a poor angle. They are the same greaves as the hypaspist you showed and they simply cannot be improved upon. Have you asked yourself what type of material the ptyrges of both are made of? The spartan ones seem to be made of gold also. But you didn't mention how there is no problem with having all the armor, helmet, ptyrges, bolts, everything on the spartan is the same material. No, the EB skin is "poorer" all around. Plus, although people told you the units look different when you have them selected vs. not-selected, you still had EB unit selected (and thus highlighted with light that removes some of the shading) and that in itself **always** makes units look a little worse. Bah. (Sorry Wonderland) I don't think it was a very helpful explanation.

Kull

01-29-2007, 04:18

Im not saying this mod is crap, im simply saying your units dont look as good, showing you how they dont look as good and letting you figure out how you want to procede from there.

Please stop thinking im attacking the mod, im simply trying to help it improve.

The style and nature of every single EB unit undergoes EXTENSIVE one-by-one behind the scenes review. We focus on historical accuracy first and foremost, but the whole team takes great pride in the work of the many artists who have spent 1000's of hours to create the 350+ units you have been GIFTED with. Over 100 people have spent over two years working on this and YOU walk in the door and say that our "skins don't look too good". Not one unit, not two, not five, but as you yourself said earlier.....all of them. And then you have the sheer unmitigated gall to tell us it's "constructive criticism".

Well here's some constructive criticism. Your method of providing constructive criticism sucks out loud.

Imperator

01-29-2007, 04:35

I'll write a quick summary of the argument so far (as I see it, just an editorial piece here):
"your skins are ugly"
"we like them- they're historically accurate and we worked hard on them"
"wtf they're ugly. these are nice units. make your units just like this mod's so I can play it"
"no- we still like our units. please offer constructive criticism or go away"
"I'm just trying to help...but your units are so ugly"
"...go away"

come on. It's fine that he doesn't like the skins, but he doesn't seem like he's offering any solutions, just offering an opinion that EB is doing it wrong and so-and-so are doing it right. To each his own- he's not dumb for disliking our skins, but if he insists on bashing our skins and claiming that he's helping out by doing so, just close this thread to keep the debate from getting any more angry...

Severian Huizi

01-29-2007, 04:44

I think EB's modelling does a fantastic job of illustrating some of the social disparity that existed between different units in an ancient army and by extension the societal classes they drew ranks from and represented.

Especially in the Diadochi armies, it's interesting to see the lines of division between the richly adorned and equipped soldiers of the ruling Hellenic classes coming from the homeland regions and the comparatively bare panoplies of the auxiliaries levied (theoretically) at force from all those outlying client and allied provinces.

One of the things that discouraged me on RTR were the overblown models for the Hellenic factions, complete with jarring neon-bright Pezhetairoi. In comparison, EB's campaign for a faction like Baktria feels much more immersive precisely because of the earthier-toned unit models. One really has the feeling of fighting a sprawling colonial struggle on the outermost axis of the Seleukid empire with a threadbare force of peoples from multiple regions and ethnicies almost literally "from everywhere".

Dooz

01-29-2007, 04:47

Bah. (Sorry Wonderland) I don't think it was a very helpful explanation.

lol, hey no problem. I just think it's an improvement that he attempted to explain himself better than previously. I didn't assume EB members would suddenly accept his ideas or embrace his presence. Once your mad, it's hard to let go.

vopohame

01-29-2007, 06:35

I had made my own mod a while back for personal use and found I had borrowed
40% from EB
25% from SPQR
<5% from RTR
and the rest from individuals like webbird, lusted, maximusminimus and such

The only reason I couldnt put more of eB in is that I was tapping out at the maximums but I did figure out a trick. I had roughly 240 models but over 1000different skins. I tried to use models that looked good that had a broad range of factions and different skins. EB made that mod incredible many thanks. Now I just transport other skins into the EB game that I want to add here and there to make the unit rosters feel complete. Man your mod is good. I havent even bought mtw2 yet and will eventually but not until i get my fill of EB.

I found your textures to be quite satisfying thank you.

fallen851

01-29-2007, 08:33

Aww man. Someone other than me is being flamed by the EB team, and instead of taking their side against the evil EB team, I'm forced to side with the EB team.

Dude, say it with me. "What the hell? What the hell am I thinking?"

The EB skins are perfect. How can you complain?

Geoffrey S

01-29-2007, 08:45

See! Even fallen851 is in agreement! :beam:

PSYCHO V

01-29-2007, 08:54

:laugh4:

Dooz

01-29-2007, 09:25

See! Even fallen851 is in agreement! :beam:

Oh, he's just found an way to get back "in" with EB. Tell the truth fallen! You sneaky little thing.

Lord Gruffles

01-29-2007, 16:07

Once your mad, it's hard to let go.
In TA's defense this ForVictory guy came out of the woodwork (along with another odd fellow) over at TWC a couple/few weeks ago and starting asking the most irritating questions about EB. I won't go into specifics but suffice it to say I was very impressed with how well TA held his tongue and kept his composure. :laugh4:

antiochus epiphanes

01-29-2007, 16:24

if you dont like the skins, then you can download adobe photoshop, learn to skin, and redo all of them with your own texture designs.
do you know how much TIME goes into making them, redoing them, and polishing them off? oh and the historians, dont get me started on them:laugh4: :oops:

Oleo

01-29-2007, 16:36

I have to agree with the opening poster, these skins are just not that good.

I mean look at that:
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3826/hypaspistaidh5.th.jpg (https://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hypaspistaidh5.jpg)

Btw I am kidding. ~:doh:

HumphreysCraig00

01-29-2007, 17:24

I did originally fully adress every point raised since my last post, but the post was even larger than this one so I will just post basics of the reply

How are the eb textures more compressed? I always thought the same size at the same resolution with the same format = Same compression.

And the screenshots were all taken on the maximum resolution, they are very low poly though, I wonder why.

And it doesnt matter how something looks on a render, hell im a terrible (as far as im concerned) 3d artist but I have made a couple of decent looking renders when I was trying to get onto a HL2 mod team.

___

I never said the realism was bad, I never said the colours were bad, I said the detailing was bad, and when asked to specify what I meant I did and when asked to show how to improve it I showed a superior example of what I saw as the problem points which the Eb texturing team could then make thier observations on and so forth, thus improving both thier skills and the mod as a whole.

Which if I was a skinner I would hope for people to do.

It is possible to be both historically accurate and well detailed, and thus good looking.

In short, If I drew a stick figure with a few circles around the chest area and a somewhat ovular shield, then drew an almost photolike, but coloured bright pink, picture of a man in segmentata, and said they were both polybian legionaries, while the stick figure would be more historically accurate but would look worse, meanwhile the photolike picture would be better looking, if unrealistic (which is what my point was), now if I combined the stick figure's realism with the segmentatas quality, surely that is superior.

But ive made this point before without anyone understanding so either your not capable of understanding it or im not capable of stating it in an understandable way, it doesnt matter though.
___

Teleklos Archelaou,

A basic EB unit vs a basic Vanilla unit, a fair comparison as far as Im concerned especially as I apparently dont take good screenshots but both of those had the same fault., and the wost substancially modified XGM unit as.

Then the Spartan Vs the Hypaspist, which are both apparantly some of the most effort containing textures of both games.

Plus, can you really not see the differences? They are glaring to me and draw my eyes literally instantly

The XGM models were also selected as to take the screenshots I would select the unit and then press the track unit button as it lets the camera get closer to the ground then without doing so.

___

I can skin to an decent (apparently) extent, I however dont find it very enjoyable, and me making my own units wouldnt help me achieve what my original aim was which was showing the eb team what I saw was the weak point of thier units and then units that do the afore mentioned point better so they can learn more from it.

As I have said above and below (edit this bit in) I want people to say where they see problems with things I occasionally make, I know nothing I make is perfect and know that there is room for improvement, I dont understand why you people are taking it so hard.

If I could get some historians to give me visual proof first and textual proof second of how the units looked I would as I would have a whack every so often at it, whenever I get the urge lol.

___

Quite frankly imperator this thread has been constantly people defending eb units as being the best simply because they are historically accurate, even when I said a few times it was the detailing I thought was the issue they still said historical accuracy, which is bizzare. The original poster, as well as myself, were actually praising the mod, just saying that the units were sub par compared to other mods we knew or even to the standard game.

___

To kull, yes it may be arrogance to say that the texture could improve here, but it is also arrogance to basically throw attempts at help back in my face, I did everything asked of me, I described what I saw was wrong to the best of my ability, even backing it up with pictoral examples.

Which is what I like people to do when I produce anything.

It is funny, but the best defence of the lower quality of your units has come from a member of the XGM team, and from a non EB team member.
___

(Forgot to add this one in lol)

I have been blunt yes, but I dont see the point of being all nice when it is easier and quicker to not be, I prefer people to give it to me straight, as it is (and as I attempted to) than to beat around the bush.

If I was seen as being hostile, vindictive and berating during this, while partially intended as its impossible to point out flaws without being being so somewhat, wasnt meant to be excessive, so if I have been excessively improper, sorry.

(Edited to add that and other small points I thought id put in)