Legless

[English assassin]

OK, that title was in very bad taste, as you will shortly discover.

Here http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2000991,00.html is the story of a woman with body identity integrity disorder. To sum up, she had two normal healthy legs, but she wanted to be a double amputee.

I thought it was an interesting story. What to take from it? One thing is clear, BIID is real. No one repeatedly tries to freeze their legs off without having somethign wrong with them. But what I am left wondering is why the solution is in the body, and not the mind? Is it a reflection on the west's fetishising of self expression and identity that we do not treat women like this as mentally ill? Is it latent guilt for a time not so long ago when other, far lesst disturbing, behaviour was seen as aberrant (its only about 50 years since they stoped trying to "cure" homosexuals, after all).

And, if they are her legs, and she can support herself (sorry) as a double amputee, should we allow personal autonomy to go so far as deliberate self mutilation?

[Del Arroyo]

People like this need to be re-educated. What a complete nitwit. I hope she is hopelessly in debt from her needless medical bills.

[Vladimir]

:inquisitive: Strange, I didn't think the Guardian was a tabloid. :inquisitive:

[Xiahou]

I fully expect some here to say that removing her legs would cure her. :yes:

[Vladimir]

I fully expect some here to say that removing her legs would cure her. :yes:

So would removing her head. That's where the problem lies.

[lars573]

OK, that title was in very bad taste, as you will shortly discover.

Here http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2000991,00.html is the story of a woman with body identity integrity disorder. To sum up, she had two normal healthy legs, but she wanted to be a double amputee.

I thought it was an interesting story. What to take from it? One thing is clear, BIID is real. No one repeatedly tries to freeze their legs off without having somethign wrong with them. But what I am left wondering is why the solution is in the body, and not the mind? Is it a reflection on the west's fetishising of self expression and identity that we do not treat women like this as mentally ill? Is it latent guilt for a time not so long ago when other, far lesst disturbing, behaviour was seen as aberrant (its only about 50 years since they stoped trying to "cure" homosexuals, after all).

And, if they are her legs, and she can support herself (sorry) as a double amputee, should we allow personal autonomy to go so far as deliberate self mutilation?
Hmm there was an episode of Nip/Tuck (called Ben White) about a guy with this kind of disorder. A googling later and what was described on that episode is mostly true. That right now it's considered a psychological disorder and the medical community try to treat it as such. And try and prevent them from doing DIY amputations, or hurting themself into needing one. Problem is that like being transgendered, or having BDD (body dismorphic disorder), the only real solution is the physical change.

[Fisherking]

With your health care system does the government, and there by everyone, pick up the tab?

In a perfect world I suppose some one would try to help her out with a good head shrink. But that is no guarantee of a fix. There used to be that little thing about being a danger to your self or others…but we have cut the cord on that one to it would seem.

I guess if she wanted a sure fire quick fix she might try a train track……………………….:sweatdrop:

:wall:

[BDC]

She's ill. People shouldn't be so harsh on ill people, it all has a way of coming back to haunt you.

[BDC]

Ooops.

[Vladimir]

Ooops.

I think that double posting is the sign of a disorder. ~;)

[yesdachi]

Should Universal Health Care pay for the procedure? :kiss2:

[Kanamori]

Well, I suppose it is possible that she got this entrenched in her mind since childhood and finds accepting her two legs as impossible...

There's no way I wouldn't call this a mental illness... but the possibility remains that she developed the insane desire and maybe the best way to fix it is to take them off... Ultimately, I think a person's body is in their own domain, so long as the action in question only effects them.

I say maybe, because I have no idea about how effective psychological or psychiatric treatments may be and whether or not some other underlying mental illness, aside from what they call BIID, prevents her from reasonably changing her mind.

Could nerves in the leg, or even those correlated in the brain, be messed up and she actually has some reason to think something is wrong with her legs?


I think BIID will stay taboo until people get together and bring it out. A hundred years ago, it was taboo to be gay in many societies, and 50 years ago the idea of transsexuals was abhorrent to most. I have tried to make the condition more understood but it is difficult to get a case out in the open by yourself.

The real issue isn't how accepted it is as being normal, but more about how accepted the idea is that she can't reasonably change -- I don't mean actually using reason but how likely she would be to ever change -- her mind about her legs.

[Vladimir]

This all reminds me of the tale of some boy (child) who thought he was female so much that he wanted a sex change. The usual shyness about being naked around boys when he was younger evolved into genital mutilation in high school. One time he shoved a metal wire up his penis multiple times hoping that it would have to be removed. It sounds very much like dry ice lady.

[Del Arroyo]

Hemingway wrote a short story about a boy who cut his own dick off.

[Papewaio]

Should Universal Health Care pay for the procedure? :kiss2:

If it is a mental problem:
Then the full spectrum of mental health resources should be engaged... which is compared to physical health minute at best... for some reason mental health still has a stigma about it which includes a lack of resources devoted to it. Mental health issues should get higher priority then life style choices (recreational drugs and sports for instance).

[doc_bean]

So, has she got a leg to stand on ?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Never heard of BIID. Is there no treatment for such a pyschotic condition, might the children be at risk of inheriting this pychosis?
I wouldn't be thanking her or the mother-in-law for not divulging this before the nuptials either.

Well, I had to look this one up. Here's the wiki-> BIID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia)

[Kralizec]

This doesn't sound like a psychosis to me.

I heard of the condition before but I have no opinion about it, let alone the fact that I'm not a psychologist. If we're to allow sex-changes I don't see why this shouldn't be.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Firstly, transgender issues have now been shown to be biological. The brain in the sufferer is litterally the wrong type so that they are a man trapped in a woman's body, or vice-versa. I forget the exact science but it has been shown to be biological, at least in some cases.

BIID has not yet been shown to be such. Until it is it remains a mental health issue and sufferers should be counseled and persuaded out of it. At the point where they start endangering their own lives amputation then becomes an option.

[Tribesman]

articleAs a teenager, in the privacy of my own home, I used to play by myself at being an amputee. I would pretend I had one leg, strapping the other one up behind me and wearing oversize trousers so there was no shape.
I bet her parents really regret taking her to watch Treasure Island .

Now what would be really funny is if she gets a prosthetic limb .

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Tribes....

Seriously though, since she elected to have her limb removed should she get an NHS prosthetic?

[GoreBag]

You're all commie leftists! If she wants to lose her legs, let her!

[KukriKhan]

For our Medic-types: any chance of a voluntarily-amputated limb being used by someone else - say a soldier who lost his leg to an IED?

[Kralizec]

For our Medic-types: any chance of a voluntarily-amputated limb being used by someone else - say a soldier who lost his leg to an IED?

Support the troops, lend a limb!

Edit: no offence meant. If it works, I'm all for it.

[Blodrast]

For our Medic-types: any chance of a voluntarily-amputated limb being used by someone else - say a soldier who lost his leg to an IED?

eh, still looking for that silver lining, Kukri ? ~;)
Hard choice, imo. Hard, because we still can't figure out what's going on in one's head (thank God for that, otherwise things like Minority Report would be among the least of our worries).
So we can't really decide what's best for her: a life of mental anguish due to having both legs, or a life of physical struggle for being legless ? Who can tell ?
Moreover, if the psychological issue can be healed, is it ethical to do so ? Doesn't it dangerously approach the effects of a lobotomy, i.e. whatever "we" (the society) deem as unacceptable mental illnesses, we try to "heal" them regardless of the involved people's will.

And if I wanted to be really, really cynical (which I don't), seeing as how we have the "what price would you put on abortion/etc" thread going, one could even consider the economical implications of this: is society obligated to perform an act which would create a "burden" on said society ? (again, I'm being cynical here, okay ?) because, let's face it, unless you're Stephen Hawking, there is no way a legless person can be more productive/beneficial to society than a whole person (and one example in 6 billion people does not make a case).

My point ?
It's a complicated decision, and I don't know that we are in a position to figure out the best solution (of course, we can still debate it :) ).

[lars573]

For our Medic-types: any chance of a voluntarily-amputated limb being used by someone else - say a soldier who lost his leg to an IED?
Possibly, but donor limbs are still dodgey. Appearntly from what I've seem/read donor limbs have a high rate of rejection. And by reject I mean just stop working.

[Tribesman]

because, let's face it, unless you're Stephen Hawking, there is no way a legless person can be more productive/beneficial to society than a whole person (and one example in 6 billion people does not make a case).

Cynical or not Blodrast , that is walking on very dodgy ground .


Possibly, but donor limbs are still dodgey. Appearntly from what I've seem/read donor limbs have a high rate of rejection. And by reject I mean just stop working.

Plus you have the added problem that arises with the anti rejection drugs .

[Husar]

Cynical or not Blodrast , that is walking on very dodgy ground .
Yes, this (http://www.monotool.com/) is an austrian company producing clothes for people in wheelchairs, some of the people running the company are bound to wheelchairs themselves which is why/how they got the idea.

[Vladimir]

Firstly, transgender issues have now been shown to be biological. The brain in the sufferer is litterally the wrong type so that they are a man trapped in a woman's body, or vice-versa. I forget the exact science but it has been shown to be biological, at least in some cases.


Impossible. Male children start to produce testoserone (sp) while still in the womb that changes their brain physiology. It would have to be the sign of a major birth defect.

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

I have heard a story on this on the radio, very strange indeed.

i found some links, if your interested.

link 1 (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1395891.htm)
link 2 (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1395891.htm)
link 3 (www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-5930.2005.00293.x)

[Blodrast]

Cynical or not Blodrast , that is walking on very dodgy ground .

What do you mean, Tribesman ? Could you elaborate a bit, please ?
Not being contrary or anything, I'd just like to hear other points of view.

Husar: Please read my statement again: I did not say legless people can not be beneficial to society AT ALL. I said that I don't see how a legless person can be MORE beneficial to society than a person with two functional lower limbs.

And while I agree there are exceptional cases (e.g. Hawking), they are just that: exceptions.

Note again that this does not necessarily reflect my personal views, like I said, I think that the multitude of perspectives this issue can be approached from may warrant a deeper analysis than a superficial dismissal (either pro or con).

[Tribesman]

Well Bloodrast , its like this , out of all the amputees I know only one is less productive /beneficial to society than fully limbed people , and he happened to be a walking bollox who was no use for anything anyhow before the tiger took both his arms off .

[Blodrast]

And the others are as productive as "whole" people ?
I should probably mention that I don't think I know any people with missing limbs...
Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the thread (wherever it was going)...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Impossible. Male children start to produce testoserone (sp) while still in the womb that changes their brain physiology. It would have to be the sign of a major birth defect.

It's a tiny part of the brain which is wired female instead of male. Wouldn't you consider being the wrong gender a serious birth-defect?

Tribes: You know some interesting people.

I think what Brodrast is trying to say is that removing a limb can only give you a disadvantage, not an advantage. Which is true I suppose, as far as it goes.

As someone who is currently sitting here occasionally gritting his teeth from the intermitant pain given off by his ankle and knee I can say I'd rather keep the limb, otherwise running would be a bit tricky.

[Tribesman]

And the others are as productive as "whole" people ?

Yep , it depends on what job they do though . While I know 3 stonemasons without legs I have yet to come across one without arms .
Anyhow you "exceptional" example is wrong , he isn't an amputee he has a nerve disease , perhaps Nelson might be an example you could use instead , or for Wigferth and his running worries perhaps Terry Fox .
Now I wonder how fast Fox could have run a marathon with one of the latest sporting prothetics(which are contraversial since they make people run too fast for the events to be fair on those who use the older versions)

But anyway , just for some feedback I sent this story off to a few people .
Responses have been pretty consistant .
Stupid cow mainly as an initial reaction followed by , isn't it just the same sort of mental disorder as those that weigh 6 stone and still think they are fat and if people can get their transgender mental issues dealt with in the health service then why is this mental disorder any different .

One persons views I would be interested in seeing on this would be Proletariats , but she doesn't do the backroom anymore .

[doc_bean]

One persons views I would be interested in seeing on this would be Proletariats , but she doesn't do the backroom anymore .

Women feel different about their legs than men ? :huh2:

[Tribesman]

Women feel different about their legs than men ?
She works with veterans who carelessly mislaid some body parts .

[doc_bean]

Ah didn't know that.

[Fragony]

I fully expect some here to say that removing her legs would cure her. :yes:

That actually happens, it's a rather strange condition, these people think these limbs just aren't theirs. There is nothing else that can be done at the moment.

before the tiger took both his arms off

How did he manage to do that? Usually best to stay away from them.

[Tribesman]

How did he manage to do that?
An important lesson for anyone out there who may just happen to be completely absolutely unbelievably stupid .
If for some strange reason you feel the need to stick your arm into a tigers cage , when the inevitable happens do not try and retrieve your lost arm from the cage by sticking your remaining arm into the cage .:dizzy2:

Like I said Frag , he was a walking bollox anyway , now he is an armless walking bollox .

[InsaneApache]

An important lesson for anyone out there who may just happen to be completely absolutely unbelievably stupid .
If for some strange reason you feel the need to stick your arm into a tigers cage , when the inevitable happens do not try and retrieve your lost arm from the cage by sticking your remaining arm into the cage .:dizzy2:

Somehow, I know you're not making this up. :wall:

Maybe he should get together with the girl and start a club. :laugh4:

[BDC]

Somehow, I know you're not making this up. :wall:

Maybe he should get together with the girl and start a club. :laugh4:
Hers was intentional though, whilst he was just... Stupid? Not sure that's strong enough.

[Fragony]

Maybe he should get together with the girl and start a club. :laugh4:

That would be very romantic, they really make eachother whole again.

About very big cats and boundless stupidity, I can actually top this story. A few years ago the lion's cage needed a pointjob, the painter decided to come a day earlier. Of course, it's preferable that the cages are empty when you enter them, erect the ladder, and start painting, like they would have been had he not come a day earlier.

[Mooks]

Freak.

[Kanamori]

Yeah!

[Rameusb5]

Should Universal Health Care pay for the procedure? :kiss2:

Probably not. But it should pay for her psychiatric treatment. :bounce:

[Blodrast]

Yep , it depends on what job they do though . While I know 3 stonemasons without legs I have yet to come across one without arms .
Anyhow you "exceptional" example is wrong , he isn't an amputee he has a nerve disease , perhaps Nelson might be an example you could use instead , or for Wigferth and his running worries perhaps Terry Fox .


I know, I know, I was just using him as an example to make a point about people with disabilities in general, not just amputees.
But yeah, I'd like to hear Prole's opinion on this, too.

[Ironside]

I suspect it's a "milder" version of what Fragony was commenting on.

They simply don't recognise thier limbs as thier own. An example that I did read about.
A man who had woken up after an accident had fallen out of his bed on the hospital. When the personal came to see he he told the following story. He had avoken during the night and then he discovered a dead leg in his bed. Of course he couldn't stand this macabre joke, so he decided to trow the leg out of the bed. When doing this, he discovered something even more horrendous, someone had stiched the dead leg onto him so he followed the leg onto the floor.
Well no cruel jokes were pulled on him, except the one where he doesn't longer recognice his leg as his own (it simply disappeared somehow).
(You can impale his leg when he sees it and he would still wonder were the pain came from)


As I said this is probably the "mild" verson, were the body simply sends out a big WRONG signal about the body part instead.

[ezrider]

a couple of courses of Electro Schock therapy, may sort her problem out, if not a few others she didn't know she had.


I wonder how people that were disabled from birth or in an accident would react to this news?

[Tribesman]

I wonder how people that were disabled from birth or in an accident would react to this news?
Sorry , I should have been clearer that when I wrote......But anyway , just for some feedback I sent this story off to a few people .
Responses have been pretty consistant .
Stupid cow mainly as an initial reaction followed by , isn't it just the same sort of mental disorder as those that weigh 6 stone and still think they are fat and if people can get their transgender mental issues dealt with in the health service then why is this mental disorder any different .
....the people I sent it off to are all either amputees or born limbless .