View Full Version : gonna stop blaming the muslims
I just realised how our collective cultural undoing can be summarised in one word: 'xenophobic'. What does it mean, fear of the unknown, fear of change. In this very word lies the assumption that change is a good thing per se, why is that, why this fundamental believe that change is always for the good, for the blind left it doesn't matter how it changes as long as it does. We ask the muslims to integrate, but we have no idea who we are, so they should integrate into what exactly? They know they live in a changing country, and it's only natural that they claim their place here, they only step on the space we give them. That is why we need a dominant culture with a clear identity, so that we don't give any false expectations, must be confusing as hell for them. The real fundamentalists can be found on the multicultist left, they are the real destroyers, muslims are also taken for a ride in this change-blitzkrieg, and that isn't good for any of us.
KukriKhan
01-30-2007, 15:12
So your question is:
What is truly, exclusively, Dutch?
Or something else?
Or are you pointing out some kind of contradiction: on the one hand the "Dutch left multicultists" agree that muslims have to integrate into "thé" Dutch society, id est accepting its' legislation, learning its' habits and customs etc etc, but on the other hand they stand for an ever changing society thus constantly changing what they want the muslims to accept making it impossible for them to fit in said society?
Is that what you mean Fragony?
What is truly, exclusively, Dutch?
Me.
No the question is, why the assumption that change is always a good thing, why are we talking about 'fear of the unknown' aka 'xenophobia'. Let me give you an example, let's say a muslima that refuses to give males a hand in her profession, and the immediate backing she gets from the all these organisation that protect the rights of majorities, why do these organisation do this? I think it's the blind believe that we need to trancend into something else, don't want to join the party, then you are afraid, a xenophobe.
Or are you pointing out some kind of contradiction: on the one hand the "Dutch left multicultists" agree that muslims have to integrate into "thé" Dutch society, id est accepting its' legislation, learning its' habits and customs etc etc, but on the other hand they stand for an ever changing society thus constantly changing what they want the muslims to accept making it impossible for them to fit in said society?
Is that what you mean Fragony?
yes, but you said it better
The Allochtonen (yes it's actually English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allochtoon)) are the only real Dutch.
They don't pay their taxes, they live of a compensation they get from the Goverment because they can't work
The real fundamentalists can be found on the multicultist left
And in Venlo, damned Wilders, I mean if someone is a fundamentalist and danger for the country it's him (and his gang), not the guy from Marocco that lives at the end of the street here
doc_bean
01-30-2007, 15:28
Wouldn't it be easier if you just all became muslims then ?
just asking
Wouldn't it be easier if you just all became muslims then ?
just asking
Try suggesting that in Urk, Staphorst and Giethoorn
My god we Dutch are just as bad, had an away match in Rijssen once, and when I play bad I swear at myself, and out loud. I will never do that again in Rijssen, I bet they still now it's me even tho it was last year ... ofcourse some say that it isn't nice to swear using "the lords" name, but seriously, they would have lynched me if that wouldn't be illegal.
We always say our Dutch culture is superior, but do we have one? I mean what is the Dutch culture? Hasj, Coke, Weed? Urk, Staphorst and some other Religious fortress in the countryside. Nah we should be happy they are here, we invited them here, to do the jobs we didn't want, and still don't want, and they are happy to help us. Ofcourse sometimes there's a rotten apple, but for every rotten apple there is an entire basket of good and tastefull apples.
And in Venlo, damned Wilders, I mean if someone is a fundamentalist and danger for the country it's him (and his gang), not the guy from Marocco that lives at the end of the street here
How can de maroccan guy at the end of the street know when he is crossing boundaries if there is nobody to tell him? Not that I like him but I do agree with Wilders, we need one dominant culture, where there is a place for the islam.
Ordnung must sein ;)
We always say our Dutch culture is superior, but do we have one?
Oh boy do they got you.......
Vladimir
01-30-2007, 15:45
We always say our Dutch culture is superior, but do we have one? I mean what is the Dutch culture? Hasj, Coke, Weed? Urk, Staphorst and some other Religious fortress in the countryside. Nah we should be happy they are here, we invited them here, to do the jobs we didn't want, and still don't want, and they are happy to help us. Ofcourse sometimes there's a rotten apple, but for every rotten apple there is an entire basket of good and tastefull apples.
Calvinism? :idea2: Or maybe I’m just not up with the times :shame: .
Ja, und Arbeit macht frei
Not that I like him but I do agree with Wilders, we need one dominant culture, where there is a place for the islam.
No no no, Wilders says there's no place for the Islam.
Personally I would rather have the SGP, they're bad, but atleast they aren't racists. Which Wilders is
Calvinism?
Yes Calvinists ... dangerous
KukriKhan
01-30-2007, 16:38
Sometimes a view from the outside looking in is helpful:
(this is based on what I've seen & read in various media + being married 9 years into a 1st-gen american Dutch family (in the 70's) + "knowing" the Dutchmen here)
I see the Dutch as hard-working, ambitious, yet modest people. Boasting, or even mentioning one's accomplishments is not only embarrassing, it's seen as downright rude. They love to laugh - especially the "head thrown back, lungs full of air" -type laugh. But they have a dark side too, and can be (briefly) gloomier than any stereotypical Russian in the dead of winter. A pragmatic people, things are what they are, and no more; flashy opulence is unnecessary, inefficient, and distasteful. They've almost perfected the "live and let live" philosophy, but don't back away from self-examination, the better to purge any ostentatious-ness that may have crept in. Artisans of "the fair deal", they constantly look for ways to broker win-win situations among people.
They make pretty good beer. :bow:
Seems like you know us well Kukri, yes those are all very dutch things indeed :beam:
Vladimirs 'calvinist' wasn't so far off
Rameusb5
01-30-2007, 17:19
So if I have an uncontrollable fear of Xenos, what would that be called? Strangerphobia?
Sorry, I'm derailing your thread...
yesdachi
01-30-2007, 17:27
Sometimes a view from the outside looking in is helpful:
(this is based on what I've seen & read in various media + being married 9 years into a 1st-gen american Dutch family (in the 70's) + "knowing" the Dutchmen here)
I see the Dutch as hard-working, ambitious, yet modest people. Boasting, or even mentioning one's accomplishments is not only embarrassing, it's seen as downright rude. They love to laugh - especially the "head thrown back, lungs full of air" -type laugh. But they have a dark side too, and can be (briefly) gloomier than any stereotypical Russian in the dead of winter. A pragmatic people, things are what they are, and no more; flashy opulence is unnecessary, inefficient, and distasteful. They've almost perfected the "live and let live" philosophy, but don't back away from self-examination, the better to purge any ostentatious-ness that may have crept in. Artisans of "the fair deal", they constantly look for ways to broker win-win situations among people.
They make pretty good beer. :bow:
West Michigan (Holland) is filled with the Dutch you described. Our little Dutch communities are rather exclusive and separatist, choosing to integrate as little as possible on a personal level (not to the point of inbreeding but they seem to like their own ~D ) while business is another story altogether and it seems that everyone’s money is green!
Our little Dutch communities are rather exclusive and separatist, choosing to integrate as little as possible on a personal level (not to the point of inbreeding but they seem to like their own ~D )
Hehehe you are not helping here you know :laugh4:
Our little Dutch communities are rather exclusive and separatist, choosing to integrate as little as possible on a personal level
Aye those are the real, die-hard Dutch (like Fragony)
Last year there was a documentary on TV, it was about Dutchmen going on holiday to their favourite location in Turkey, and liking it there. Do you know what it looked like? BLOODY AMSTERDAM. Yeah we go on holiday but we want to have Holland there too. Dutch food, Dutch language, Dutch everything ... you're on holiday for God's sake ... seriously sometimes I wonder why I still live here. Luckely I come from the border, in the west of the country they don't see me as a Dutchman, and I'm glad about it too, yeah ok I speak a dialect, but that doesn't mean you're superior to me, bloody Dutchmen, I almost hate them
doc_bean
01-30-2007, 17:53
Aye those are the real, die-hard Dutch (like Fragony)
Last year there was a documentary on TV, it was about Dutchmen going on holiday to their favourite location in Turkey, and liking it there. Do you know what it looked like? BLOODY AMSTERDAM. Yeah we go on holiday but we want to have Holland there too. Dutch food, Dutch language, Dutch everything ... you're on holiday for God's sake ... seriously sometimes
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
We have those places too :Benidorm is spain was pretty infamous. I don't know the names of any Turkish places but I know people who go there :shame:
Awwww don't hate me Stig, fear will do just fine
'bout the point of having a dominant culture I'd agree, but as already asked what is the culture to be dominant in here? The Dutch culture I know of is mainly about complaining, making money, living on emotions, being consumerist, improving your own situation, conflict, etc. And if that is true, then there are many countries that look alike with the same "culture" more or less.
The main culture is this: money. And the Netherlands are very good at it. One could argue about clogs, tulips, cheese and whatever, but when I think culture I think general behaviour of the people of a country. And what I've described above is what I've seen in cities overall. I've never been to any one-horse towns 'round here, and I don't wanna :P
Though, actually, I have some family living in one and have been there: white Dutch male who lost his "allochtone" wife by death and has two children, married to a Surinamese female who lost her husband by death and has grownup children. They are the only "foreign/etc." family living there in a quiet village where the Dutch people FEAR "strangers" and the likes (that basically means people who aren't white/Dutch). As soon as they see "allochtonen" 'tis as if they think their village's gonna be run over and turned into a city like Rotterdam or something.
But you know what I think? I don't really give one single flying fig about where somebody comes from (I wouldn't even mind if you're from Mars). This mentioned xenophobia is common with most people (in many forms), and it's not good. Look at the world and how it's been becoming more global all the time.
Nationalism (or any fitting variant) is something of the past though still in existence. What we have now is consumerism and globalization as this country is following in the footsteps of America (- the new empire reaching afar through commerce, consumerism, information warfare, espionage, fear, military warfare, general military presence, etc.).
And most likely the human race (in whatever time there's needed) will change regarding "race". I foresee a general beige colour (and possibly wars not about race, but about the same old thing: money/power.[/rant]
Seriously, Holland is one of the worst countries I've seen where people are discriminative and xenophobic, and the multicultural society is only multicultural because there are many cultures or even more accurate "different peoples" SEPARATE; not because they peacefully coexist. It's like what's been said in my Peace thread: we've come so far technologically, and globally to some extent, etc., but we humans are still the same in our behaviour and natures.
Eh, well... My head hurts, I'm gonna stop now :P
As soon as they see "allochtonen" 'tis as if they think their village's gonna be run over and turned into a city like Rotterdam or something.
I bet that's the same village as Wilders and Fragony come from
Nationalism (or any fitting variant) is something of the past though still in existence.
Not true, I'm as anti-Nationalistic as it can get, my normal opinion is: @#%$ Holland. But when you talk like that you will find out that there are enough nationalists left, I can't say why I should be proud of my country, but some people are actually proud of something they can do nothing with.
I bet that's the same village as Wilders and Fragony come from
And I bet that wasn't very smart.
Seriously, Holland is one of the worst countries I've seen where people are discriminative and xenophobic, and the multicultural society is only multicultural because there are many cultures or even more accurate "different peoples" SEPARATE; not because they peacefully coexist.
That is true, I have been saying that here for years. It just doesn't exist. It could though, and it will have to, but we really ought to stop bullshitting eachother. The majority of the dutch youth have views that would make me look like Ghandi, and that majority is the next generation. We better wise up.
And I bet that wasn't very smart.
A joke m8, a joke .... I doubt the Wilders gang will now come to lynch me ~D
A joke m8, a joke ....
Sorry, my backroom temper :wall:
doc_bean
01-30-2007, 19:37
The main culture is this: money.
Well, you are a merchant nation.
rory_20_uk
01-30-2007, 19:43
There are in the world ocer 200 countries. Probably 250 although some are not recognised internationally.
If we do all love each other so much, and want to be one big amorphous mass, why then are these so many divisions, with as many countries fracturing as ones joining together?
I don't want to be French, Irish, Polish, French, Spanish, American, French, Chinese etc etc. I'm English.
Of course England has altered over time, but this has generally been from a slow melding of new ideas into the mainstream, not groups that don't have the slightest interest in bieng integrated. Probably this is because previously groups who came to the UK were similar in some way. Europeans share a shared history (we've been killing each other for so long, we're practicay family), then there were those from the Commonwealth. All have generally fitted in. Many carribeans are proud of how long they have been in the UK.
So, out of the 250 countries, surely one can fit everyone's idea off utopia.
~:smoking:
Well, you are a merchant nation.
were Doc, we were ... there's nothing left of that old Holland, only what we want to believe
were Doc, we were ... there's nothing left of that old Holland, only what we want to believe
Can't you see you are proving my point Stig? In that, how you see it, we are asking the muslims to integrate, into something we don't even value anymore ourselve.s Every ship needs a captain, and every captain needs a map, whatever the ethnical makeup of the crew. This culture of self-loathing, or rather the enforced culture of self-loathing, or the culture of not having a culture at all, it snatches centuries of developement, learning and experience right from under our noses, and all we get back in return is even more demands. Let's scale it back a bit, does Twente have a culture? You seem to advocate what sets you apart rather fiercely at times.
rory_20_uk
01-30-2007, 20:06
Can't you see you are proving my point Stig? In that, how you see it, we are asking the muslims to integrate, into something we don't even value anymore ourselve.s Every ship needs a captain, and every captain needs a map, whatever the ethnical makeup of the crew. This culture of self-loathing, or rather the enforced culture of self-loathing, or the culture of not having a culture at all, it snatches centuries of developement, learning and experience right from under our noses, and all we get back in return is even more demands. Let's scale it back a bit, does Twente have a culture? You seem to advocate what sets you apart rather fiercely at times.
Extremely good point. In the UK there are somemoves to teach some of our own gistory (gasp) and make people learn how the country has come about - and for this to be compulsary. I have thought that America goes too far in this direction, but of course they have to stamp the country on its people as it has been so dispirate so recently. But since ours are coming apart it is time that we followed suit. People used to stand for the National Anthem. Now no one bothers. As you say, without someone showing what the country stands for how can anyone identify with a poor mix of fluffy compromises? This in turn leaves Patriotism in the hands of the far right, further destroying a national identity.
~:smoking:
yesdachi
01-30-2007, 20:14
Some Dutch guy just pulled up in a boat, called me “Large Lord” and offered to sell me guns. :beam:
DukeofSerbia
01-30-2007, 20:23
We ask the muslims to integrate, but we have no idea who we are, so they should integrate into what exactly?
They can't integrate no matter what leftist think. :no: You can't change Islam, and make it to be another idea and product in market.
The real fundamentalists can be found on the multicultist left, they are the real destroyers, muslims are also taken for a ride in this change-blitzkrieg, and that isn't good for any of us.
Bolded - TRUE. :2thumbsup:
They can't integrate no matter what leftist think. You can't change Islam
In some places they have integrated, ie. most parts of the UK, the vast majority of islamic immigrants "integrate" fairly well, and seem comfortbale with western tradition etc. living completely "british" lives, no matter what politicians say, there are an unfortunate minority who hold for extreme religious and cultural views who are unable to integrate, and as a result perhaps shouldnt be allowed to try too, the problem is seperating the two groups
:2thumbsup:
Watchman
01-30-2007, 22:25
They can't integrate no matter what leftist think. :no: You can't change Islam, and make it to be another idea and product in market.Right. You tell that to my favourite poster children, the Russian Muslim Tatars who've been living here quite peacefully for, oh, round two centuries now. A bunch came over as merchants and craftsmen after the Russian conquest, you see, and they've had an inconspicuous mosque right in the middle of the city for ages now.
...and, humans being what they now are, they initially despised the refugees from Somalia (co-religionists as they may have been) about the same as the Finnish majority...
:wall:
Kralizec
01-30-2007, 23:34
I don't think that many of the problems that are frequently associated with muslim immigrants are due to Islam itself.
That said, regardless of how peaceful many muslims in fact are, I still think we have enough Islam. I don't view muslim culture as necessarily hostile, it could co-exist, but if the trend continues it will gradually replace our own culture. Western birth rates (Dutch included) are abominably low, for immigrants they are high, and immigration continues. I think that this is a (very) possible outcome that many multiculture supporters overlook or are blind to. Like Fragony said we should get our act together first and foremost.
Watchman
01-30-2007, 23:47
Replace, bah. The word is mix. You're talking like nigh every "culture" in existence wasn't a Frankenstein mishmash of everything the cat, invaders, colonists, merchants, priests, beggars, monarchs with "foreign" affectations and God (and really pedantic cultural historians) only knows what else brought in. And let's not even start on the aforementioned influences being equally gumbo (as in, "has everything in it").
The sundry immigrants from Muslim regions are just another influx of new stuff. Nothing unusual. They'll influence the already established culture and will in turn be influenced by it, and on it goes like always.
Confrontational and dualistic attitudes on the subject - "They come and take over Our culture!!!!!" - tend to be by and large self-fulfilling prophecies, if not else then because they by default define the "native" and "foreign" as for some reason fundamentally separate and incompatible (if not outright inimical) elements. Sic vis bellum, para bellum as it were.
It's a shame that demanding that a certain place carry with it a certain culture is totally ineffective, eh? People are always just people, and each person will think as he pleases (read: as a product of his environment); the funny part is that manipulating this environment outside of the individual is impossible. You're essentially declaring, "Okay, everybody, act and think like this." It's hilarious!
Kralizec
01-31-2007, 00:03
That's assuming that both groups (the "natives" and the newcomers) are willing to mix. I'm not going to place the blame on one group, truth be told both are lacking.
Immigration was AFAIK never as large a factor as it is now. Besides, most foreign elements we absorbed were not actually that different- mostly European christians.
Eventually we will learn (we have to) to truly coexist with muslims and consider them as Dutch as ourselves but it's not going to be an easy and short process. Catholics can attest. Muslims are already a sizable minority here that isn't fully integrated, we should learn to cope with them and vice versa before we're ready take in much more then we already have.
Papewaio
01-31-2007, 00:39
I just realised how our collective cultural undoing can be summarised in one word: 'xenophobic'. What does it mean, fear of the unknown, fear of change. In this very word lies the assumption that change is a good thing per se, why is that, why this fundamental believe that change is always for the good, for the blind left it doesn't matter how it changes as long as it does.
This assertion is incorrect. You take a narrow definition from one extreme and misinterpret it, then apply the inverse of the misinterpretation to a broad spectrum of ideas. Its wrong in the following:
a) Xenophobic is not fear of change or the unknown, it is fear or unreasonable hatred of strangers or foreigners. You could be Xenophobic and open to an ever changing culture.
b) Lets assume that your initial assumption was correct and that Xenophobics were afraid of change. Not being Xenophobic does not mean you have a blind acceptance of change. Xenophobic (frag version) would only mean that you are afraid of change. There is a range of other states other then fear and wild abandoned embrace of change...fear, distrust, dislike, neutrality, progressive, rational, change loving (1000 pair of shoes, skirts, lovers but no underwear) etc.
c) Back to the more traditional view of Xenophobia. If you are not Xenophobic it doesn't mean you don't fear strangers, like them, hate them, want them, unfettered flow of foreigners... being Xenophobic means you have an unrational fear... so Not being Xenophobic does not encompass all the other states, it just deletes a single one from the range.
Watchman
01-31-2007, 01:05
The newcomers tend to have a marked predisposition towards nostalgia for "the old country" and so on. They always do; people in general act like that when trying to fit into new surroundings. AFAIK it's not all that unusual for first-generation immigrants to cherish a pipe dream of someday going "back home" rich and succesful and all that as well, presumably another ecce homo trait; I'm willing to hazard a guess it's partly a coping mechanism people default to when they can't feel entirely comfortable in their, well, foreign environs. Culture shock and all that.
Anyway, if I've understood correctly first-generation "newcomers" normally do not, don't want to, and really cannot integrate fully into their new homeland; they tend to be too firmly rooted where they grew up in and moved from, even if it's on the opposite side of the damn globe. Fair enough, one shouldn't expect old dogs to learn too many tricks and people are allowed to be nostalgic and sentimental.
But if the "natives" for one reason or another can't accept this, there's a problem. And in that case it'd frankly be the natives.
That aside, the immigrant generations past the first have a whole different set of problems - namely, usually a bit of an identity crisis. Their parents, still clinging to their roots, tend to try to teach them one thing; the society around them teaches them something quite different, and they often end up in the middle confused of which way they should look, where they actually belong, and who they for that matter really are.
Throw this on top of the usual adolescence troubles, and it's obvious the second-generations have their hands seriously full. And something the already troubled equation could really do without, but sadly usually can't, is antagonistic "natives". People in general and insecure teenagers in particular are quite sensitive things; they can usually tell quite readily enough if they're Not Wanted Here, and although the way they react to such input varies it's usually troublesome (youths being particularly poor at such problem-solving).
And this becomes Major Trouble. If the young second-plus generationers with their identity insecurities feel like the surrounding society does not want them, they're more likely than not to respond in kind and turn their backs to it. Usually they can't relate too well to the "old country" of their parents (or grandparents or whatever) either, leaving them hanging in a sort of identity limbo.
Which is a Bad Thing, especially when it comes to young men. There's quite possibly no other population segment as potentially distruptive and open to very dubious influences as young men with identity issues and feelings of alienation; that's where the street gangs and extremist movements alike tend to recruit from, for example. Humans are social animals and have a built-in need to belong to some group or another, and when you think about it the limits of what they may be willing to do for their "mates" in one are somewhere very far away indeed - one need merely think of what he or she would be willing to do for the sake of a close relative or dear friend, what soldiers are willing to do for their comrades and fanatics for their Causes and/or Leaders.
All of which only heightens the antagonism of the already surly "natives", which duly further isolates and embitters the "newcomers", which... you get the idea. The spiral should really be nipped in the bud, but here we come to the real problem - namely, the real roots of the original antagonism have an unpleasant tendency to be very structural things far beyond the influence of any single individual. Tolerance, after all, is something of a luxury good; it tends to abound mainly in an environment of prosperity, security and abundance. Mutual intolerance on the other hand grows well in times of need, crisis and uncertainity - which happens to be exactly what just about all societies on the planet are going through to a greater or lesser degree. The global economy is undergoing painful and disenfranchising structural changes; partly as an aside of this tensions are running rather high and conflicts flare up over control of resources (also in the abstract sense) and influence over developements (or in any case a hope thereof), and in the Global Village everyone is affected.
Which in turn has a tendency to cause a certain longing for "good old times" - an often surprisingly reasonable wish, it must be added - and give birth to funny ideas about "turning back the clock" one way or another, or at least hanging on to what remains of the "old days"; resustance to change, in other words. Resistance to the threatening New before which it seems as, quoth Marx, "all that is solid melts into air" and no stone left unturned.
Resistance to the Other, the different, the Foreign.
This is why I so dislike all this talk about "preserving our threatened Culture". It's just reactionarism, and particularist at that - "my stuff is better than your stuff, I don't want your stinky stuff; go away" - a knee-jerk rejection of change and "Otherness". And it is self-fulfilling; it builds its own bastions, "Traditional Values" that often likely didn't even exist, at least as such, in the first place but were "invented" or modified for the purpose; draws its own battle-lines, those between Us and Them, the good and the bad, the native and foreign, divisions which many largely ignored previously; and above all, it creates its own enemies to fight. For such self-definition forces everyone else to define him- or herself in relation to it, leading to a chain of similar crystallizations of Traditional Values That Are Better Than Yours as a counter-reaction - nothing defines symbols as quickly and clearly as outside hostility to them, after all.
Everyone does it, too. Xenophobic natives, supremacists of all breeds, religious fundamentalists and revivalists (virtually the poster boys of the whole phenomenom) regardless of exact confessional allegiances, embittered immigrants... whoever. Pointing fingers over "ho Started It is obviously a waste of time and quite counter-productive; the important question is Who's Going To Stop Doing So. People may not by themselves be able to do much about macro-level structural shifts after all, but they can most certainly affect how they themselves react to them. And when it really comes down to it, the aforementioned macro-level changes ultimately trace back to how people act and behave and decide...
Anyway, fighting with the other scared and confused guy over whose cuisine and dresscode are better isn't exactly a very fruitful solution, nor does it do a thing to fix anything. Rather it just causes more problems.
Watchman
01-31-2007, 01:12
:help: ...how'd it turn out that long again...?
Strike For The South
01-31-2007, 01:30
Krazelic is right yall have enough Islam. Im sure there nice people and all but When I go to Germany I want to see Germany not Turkey When I go to France I want to see France not Algeria. I want to see Big Ben and the archbishop not the new supermosque. I want to go to Amsterdam and get blowed (as in piss drunk) not walk around and not find alchol becuase the muslims are now the majority and have banned the stuff. Why is it only us in the west are forced to feel to not only accept new people but completely get trampled with them. Go to Suauai Arbia and open up a brothel you will find the true meaning of xenophobe then. Europe seems to be filled with self hate.
Not true, I'm as anti-Nationalistic as it can get, my normal opinion is: @#%$ Holland. But when you talk like that you will find out that there are enough nationalists left, I can't say why I should be proud of my country, but some people are actually proud of something they can do nothing with.
Well, basically we're kind of saying the same thing in a way, but you quoted that line out of context there, and I think you misunderstood me. It's true that nationalism still exists (in some form) which I recognize(d), but when I said 'tis a thing of the past - though still in existence - I meant that the concept is so old-fashioned and just obsolete in this day and age wherein it seems to me that consumerism replaces culture, and also nationalism probably. Consumerism/Economy doesn't really care about nations and the likes.
Your opinion is valued, though, about Holland, heh heh :laugh4:
That is true, I have been saying that here for years. It just doesn't exist. It could though, and it will have to, but we really ought to stop bullshitting eachother. The majority of the dutch youth have views that would make me look like Ghandi, and that majority is the next generation. We better wise up.
With this response I'd like to immediately simultaneously get into the thing said about mixing by Watchman and further, a long post and I think exactly the same thing described in there :)
--> I think a good idea would be to force schools to be mixed. There're many schools around here in Holland that are "white/native" or "non-native". If it is perfectly logical, and most likely true, that born kids in this multicultural society (or societies with two cultures, etc.) go to separate schools, then this generation growing up will act in a typical manner, add to that current negative influences.
But if we force them to mix up and learn to automatically get along, it'll be a lot better in terms of "future safety" of society. But of course there are certain groups, factors, etc., blocking this, so I don't really see it happening so nicely.
What many people just need to do is to get rid of this fear and ignorance - I'd even call it stupidity. And this is something too difficult to get rid of. And I'm not just talking race, religion or culture. I'm mean EVERYTHING: race, religion, culture, sub culture, sexual orientation, taste, physique, rich or poor, you name it!
This thing you mention, Watchman, looks very much to me like cause and effect. Wouldn't it be great if people would suddenly stop thinking (if they have the ability in the first place) when they encounter a situation, do nothing, and then start thinking rationally? But most of all, think about themselves and their whole being, and analyze it, and others, and the environments whence everybody came and is at? If they'd only do that, and realize the possible consequences of these actions as things interconnect.
Pff, everyday when I walk down the street I see the same ****.
Further about mixing:
The forcing of public mixed schools would not only make it normal for children to really BE in a multicultural environment and get used to it, it would also facilitate the potential future mixing of these people, as they have a certain mindset. This - in essence - would only facilitate a possible future peace (that thing I said earlier about "one general colour"). And it starts small, and grows larger until it becomes a standard. So when we all look the same, there's no reason to be racist towards each other. But of course, as messed as we humans are, we'll find something else to hate/fight each other for :)
But it's not just the young generations that need a TRUE multicultural environment wherein they positively interact with peers, natives and non-natives alike, but their parents must be FORCED to adapt, much like anybody else in this society. At work, everywhere. It's just that I simply prefer mixing because it really sounds like a solution. I forgot who it was, but a person once said "We must ****, and ****, and ****, until we have one colour."
Eh, my head was still hurting btw, so take what I said with a grain of salt :)
Vladimir
01-31-2007, 04:08
:help: ...how'd it turn out that long again...?
I warned you, but nooo, you didn't want to listen to old Vladimir.
but you quoted that line out of context there
I always quote out of context if it helps me ~D
DukeofSerbia
01-31-2007, 19:19
In some places they have integrated, ie. most parts of the UK, the vast majority of islamic immigrants "integrate" fairly well, and seem comfortbale with western tradition etc. living completely "british" lives, no matter what politicians say, there are an unfortunate minority who hold for extreme religious and cultural views who are unable to integrate, and as a result perhaps shouldnt be allowed to try too, the problem is seperating the two groups
My friend was in London three years ago (Christmas time). He was 25th December walked with his friend (citizen of UK, but emigrated from Serbia) through London’s streets and he couldn’t see almost native English.
Plus, England doesn’t have so large Muslim immigration like some other European countries.
P.S.
Only crisis can show who integrated well, and who didn’t.
Right. You tell that to my favourite poster children, the Russian Muslim Tatars who've been living here quite peacefully for, oh, round two centuries now. A bunch came over as merchants and craftsmen after the Russian conquest, you see, and they've had an inconspicuous mosque right in the middle of the city for ages now.
What Tatars in Russia? If you talk about Tatars in Tatarstan Republic and Bashkortostan then you missed point. They are under Russian rule from time Ivan IV Grozny which you know. So, they are well integrated because of long rule and they are minority in Russian sea.
I talked about immigration of Muslims in Europe during last 60 years.
Your very long post have too much generalization. You obviously avoid Islam and wrote in general about immigration.
Western birth rates (Dutch included) are abominably low, for immigrants they are high, and immigration continues. I think that this is a (very) possible outcome that many multiculture supporters overlook or are blind to.
Exactly. Leftists don’t talk about birth rates. Just look Germany – their Bundes government drastically raised help for children from 1st January 2007 to motivate Germans to born more children, because for some 50 years Germans will become old and the most of young will be (we all know who).
And when time of crisis comes in Europe, when unemployment becomes higher, who will be first for accusation? Of course, foreigners (immigrants).
If birth rate among European nations stay low, plus population structure is older and older, some very bad things will happen in future (20-30 years).
Krazelic is right yall have enough Islam. Im sure there nice people and all but When I go to Germany I want to see Germany not Turkey When I go to France I want to see France not Algeria. I want to see Big Ben and the archbishop not the new supermosque. I want to go to Amsterdam and get blowed (as in piss drunk) not walk around and not find alchol becuase the muslims are now the majority and have banned the stuff. Why is it only us in the west are forced to feel to not only accept new people but completely get trampled with them.
I completely agree. My friend works in Paris and he mostly sees North African immigrants.
Go to Suauai Arbia and open up a brothel you will find the true meaning of xenophobe then. Europe seems to be filled with self hate.
Don’t accuse Saudi Arabia. They are US ally, and because of oil they can freely prohibit many things (usage of Bible and cross, and etc). When they are allies, human rights are irrelevant.
----------------------------
Postmodern leftist Europe is major problem. The fact is that European population rapidly decline and Europe dieing.
Postmodern leftist Europe is major problem.
Some facts:
1. The fact is that European population rapidly decline.
2. Population is older and older (structure of Serbian population is the oldest in Europe, and in world only Japanese are older, who are world recorders).
3. European post modern (Christian) women don’t want to have children. In Eastern Europe, they don’t have because of material standard (poor excuse), but in the West were they have all propositions they refuse. This is spiritual and moral problem, and has nothing with wealth.
4. Only who have high birth rate are Muslim immigrants. Guess who will be new majority for 50 years? Europeans are guilty.
Read demographic reports by UN. Germany will decline from ~82 to ~50 millions in 2050 if nothing changes (and how many of them will be Turks?). Russia lost every year 0.7-1 million of people! In 2000 Europe had ~700 millions of people, and in 2050 will have ~600 millions. Predictions are that until 2050 in Europe legally and illegally will come between 170 and 200 millions of immigrants (outside from Europe). In 2050, Europeans older than 65 years will be 1/3 of whole population, and their number will be double than children younger than 15 years!
Cronos Impera
01-31-2007, 20:30
I guess that they should involve a new term (xenoskepticism).
Definition
xenoskepticism = distrust in strangers, foreign cultures or other ethinc groups. Unlike xenophobia this attitude is a rational one and may involve rejecting cultural influences, etc....... This term can be associated with isolationism.
AntiochusIII
02-01-2007, 00:54
I guess that they should involve a new term (xenoskepticism).
Definition
xenoskepticism = distrust in strangers, foreign cultures or other ethinc groups. Unlike xenophobia this attitude is a rational one and may involve rejecting cultural influences, etc....... This term can be associated with isolationism.Yeah, it's like when somebody tried to define "mild racism" the other day...
Something about he thinks there are harmless racists, that they are being rational, reasonable, and all that crap. I think I pulled a Godwin's Law and proceeded to crush him beneath my multicolored, swastika-embedded fascist boots (I said it was Buddhist), but whatever.
In a way, Europe is much worse than America for accepting the fact that people with different skin colors and religions are not the Evilz Turks coming to sack Vienna. Despite the sheer size of our Biblebelt, heck. I suppose you guys don't have that melting pot factor to mellow it down.
Then again, there's the fear in the US that soon Mexicans will own every little bit of the USA as a dominant people some time soon. As much as I'm not a fan of Latino ladies (how gravitationally fulfilled they easily grow; Jeez, I know you ladies want to adopt American culture, but you could've left that trans fat out), I couldn't care less.
All I could say is: calm down. The Rule of Law, people; the rule of law. If somebody cross the line, put him in his place. What he eats and what he looks like doesn't matter. Having an identity crisis? Chill out and party. Or may be drop that beer and try some ostrich delicacy if your accented Pakistani neighbor is offended. You had enough in front of the TV/the pub/whatever.
- Antiochus, Card-Carrying Member of the PC Brigade
In a way, Europe is much worse than America for accepting the fact that people with different skin colors and religions are not the Evilz Turks coming to sack Vienna.
Heyhey, they really tried that! Twice!
They just try a different approach this time!
They're everywhere!
They have already infiltrated everything, the army, the navy, the government, the poluice, the taxi drivers, everything.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!
*goes crazy*:sweatdrop:
KukriKhan
02-01-2007, 02:06
Heyhey, they really tried that! Twice!
They just try a different approach this time!
They're everywhere!
They have already infiltrated everything, the army, the navy, the government, the poluice, the taxi drivers, everything.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!
*goes crazy*:sweatdrop:
Over here, we call that "paying their dues" (public service). That and mandatory public schooling does much to stir our melting pot. Not that 'melting pots' work for everybody everywhere - not do I even recommend they be adopted by anyone. National and cultural identities ought to be respected in their origin countries, I think. Unless the majority of citizens desire to change.
Cronos Impera
02-01-2007, 07:44
The rational ideea of xenoskepticism is that culture means power and power means money. E.g. (fantasy story) : In India the rise of the sacred cows allowed discouraged meat-eating but favoured milking instead. Milk-drinkers grew healthier than their neighbours and so the sacred cows spread all across India. Than a group of European beef-eaters (Brittish) arrive and announce the banning of all sacred cows and authorise cow consumption (So all Indian beef could fill the market shelves all over Europe). The ensuing cultural war is all about money and control. Different cultures think differently and thus their needs and expectations are also different. To ease communication and buisness you need to convert that person to your ideas and faith. Multiculturalism is bad for buisness and all gouverments know that.
Cronos Impera
02-01-2007, 07:53
Also, Christianity is more popular because it's better for buisness than islam (remember that time in the history of the Khalifate when the khalif actually depended on judeo-christian traders to ensure their wealth and a cultural tolerance policy was enstablished all over the Middle East?). Maybe this new kind of islam is even better for buisness than Calvinism and inevitably some people will have to accept islamic influences just to keep themselves in buisness.
And, when someone enters your neighbourhood to open a restaurant and starts messing with you, there's always isolationism.
AntiochusIII
02-01-2007, 10:33
Also, Christianity is more popular because it's better for buisness than islam (remember that time in the history of the Khalifate when the khalif actually depended on judeo-christian traders to ensure their wealth and a cultural tolerance policy was enstablished all over the Middle East?). Maybe this new kind of islam is even better for buisness than Calvinism and inevitably some people will have to accept islamic influences just to keep themselves in buisness.You're not serious, are you?
Let me tell you one word: Jews.
Middle Age Jews: bankers, lenders, and merchants. Why? No, there's no Jewish conspiracy to take over the world; rather, they were forced to since they weren't even well treated enough to even be a proper serf.
Middle Age Christians: expel, pillage, rob, and "confiscate" Jewish stuff whenever the local lord feels like it. Albrecht von Hapsburg threw the Jews out of Vienna when he wanted to take their stuff to pay for the Hussite Wars. Damn them Jesus killers and all, you know. Do it for the masses and the money.
Middle Age Muslims: accept said expelled Jews, much to the benefit of their local economy. The Ottomans even could form the Jewish "Sons of Moses" corps to fight against Hungary in a spirit of taking revenge from all the atrocities. Ironically, considering the Torah, they stood on far better grounds than any Christian that ever raised a sword ever stand. Eye For An Eye vs let-me-offer-you-my-other-side-for-you-to-butt-rape kind of deal.
Another word: Trade.
More Middle Age Christians: Outside of relatively well urbanized, mercantile Italy -- which of course has very frequent contacts with the Muslim world -- no truly mercantile societies until the rise of the Hanseatic league and the Flandern cities -- except for a few key "trade centers" like Champagne or Cologne. Mostly just a bunch of bloodthirsty feudal warlords and their serfs.
More Middle Age Muslims: Dominate the trade between Europe and Asia. Yes they do. No, those people aren't Jews and Christians as you said. They are Muslims, trading between India and, say, Iraq and Egypt. Rich, too, I think. Where did you think the Sinbad legend came from? I don't even have to go about the filthy rich Saharan caravan gold-salt trade, I believe? The one between, say, Timbuktu, and whatever Muslim state on the Mediterranean side is receiving it? Those Berbers sure weren't very Christian in my opinion. And I don't think they could've farmed themselves for a living like, say, in Toulouse or what-have-you. Herding, may be, but the gold trade was far more profitable.
Conclusion: Christianity better than Islam for business = wth?
And what is this "new Islam" you speak of? Was there old Islam somewhere before the Caliphates I'm unaware of?
The rational ideea of xenoskepticism is that culture means power and power means moneyRational? I strongly disagree. Especially when one realizes how much, to paraphrase, I think, Watchman, that every culture out there is actually mix-and-match of whatever influences that come to mind that the claim of two uniform and incompatible cultures directly conflicting tend to be more of a perception than any real stuff. Those so-called "incompatible" cultures more or less either mix together after a long enough period to be quite indistinguishable or the bad side takes in and somebody genocides somebody else. "Us" and "them," hah! By the time of their grandchildren, if they don't kill each other first, they would've constituted a new "us" against a new bunch of "them," just like it has always been.
The so-called "Western domination" is based on as many myths as truth. Heck, two-way cultural influences show themselves in everyday life. Sure, Western Democratic State Model tend to be popular and considered as highly effective and nice and all that; and people tend to point towards them as Western Domination. But... where do you think the Italian cuisine start off? Where do you think the beautiful flowers the Netherlands is famous for -- like, say, Tulips -- came from? Isn't sushi a Japanese word? How come every American in the country knows what they are? Do you know what "admiral" came from? Or, say, "Arabic" numeric system we use in real life? [this one, hint: not really Arabia] Where is the war between cultures you speak of, then? The money and power of nations at stake? Don't tell me that me being able to say "anime" or "sushi" or "Sasuke baka desu yo" (now that's idiotic of me; no I didn't really say it!) like a Japanese person would means America lost a battle of wills to its political ally in converting me to American "culture" and contributing to the loss of Pax Americana somehow!
After that, we can come back to the issue of having anti-foreigner tendencies (yeah, they take our wives, children, and jobs. I'm so gonna scare the very hearts out of Americans on this board with daughters that I might just grow up to marry some American girl (Yeah Right :P). Stealing their daughters! And work in their jobs too! Outrageous! America should deport me, foreigner scum that I am) and trying to justify them partially through new terminologies.
I rather gather that Europe is going through something of an identity crisis right now but I tend not to be very understanding when it comes to widespread trends of being, to be bluntly rude, xenophobic. Sure, I can see where the "sissy PC politics" piss some people off, go out of hand, and all that; but the reaction against the immigrants is often both mis-targeted and overboard.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.