Creative Assembly So Windows vista’s out [Archive]

Csargo

01-30-2007, 19:15

Microsoft has released vista, dose anybody care and will you be buying it. Has anybody tried it because a friend of mine has and he crashed it within 10 minuets.

the bbc has a bit of info (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6160327.stm)

I read a review on it. I won't get it, but it will start to show up on the newer computers(of course). Bill Gates was on The Daily Show last night and they were talking about it. I'll find the video later.

Stig

01-30-2007, 19:17

I won't get it, XP can last for about 5 years now, by that time I might buy a new PC and get the new thing with it

The Stranger

01-30-2007, 19:20

i wont buy it... its like 350$ even if i wanted it i couldnt afford it... :P

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-30-2007, 19:24

My PC struggles with M:TW, has to search through it's memory to find the tinest little bit of RAM for R:TW and EB almost burns my computer to ashes. Henceforth I will not be getting Vista, it's not that I don't want to, it's more than I can't - my PC can't run it.

Samurai Waki

01-30-2007, 19:27

Not until DX10 Games start coming out enmass.

Xiahou

01-30-2007, 19:27

I'm expecting my next PC upgrade won't be including Vista. I think it'll be at least a couple years until gamers are forced into buying it.

DukeofSerbia

01-30-2007, 19:30

Don't care until release of the first Service Pack 1 for Vista to solve security problems (like in every version of Win in the past). :book:

Spino

01-30-2007, 19:57

MS is really hyping this baby like it's the next coming of Baby Jesus. I spotted a massive, state of the art RV splattered with MS and Vista logos right outside my place of work yesterday morning (corner of 44th & Broadway). I'm sure they were trying to get the word out with flyers, freebies, demos and other assorted silliness. Hey you, come over here and let me show you a good reason for plunking down a few hundred bucks for this gizmo that costs a ton and will run slower on your PC than XP! Wheeee!

MS has, in part, failed to realize that OSes are not like cars or TVs where incremental advances in technology can become a huge selling point for consumers. Most people don't give a hoot what an OS can do so long as it is stable and runs their favorite applications with nary a hiccup. However, there are clearly some at MS who saw the writing on the wall which is why DX10 is a Vista only application. Unlike the average computer user hardcore gamers come from the same stock as car & gizmo junkies in that they are obsessed with anything which will improve their perceived experience, regardless of whether those improvements justify the expense (i.e. the uber-expensive Crossfire/SLI phenomenon).

I agree, DX10 games won't be a factor for at least another year, possibly longer.

Mikeus Caesar

01-30-2007, 20:19

MS has, in part, failed to realize that OSes are not like cars or TVs where incremental advances in technology can become a huge selling point for consumers. Most people don't give a hoot what an OS can do so long as it is stable and runs their favorite applications with nary a hiccup. However, there are clearly some at MS who saw the writing on the wall which is why DX10 is a Vista only application.

You're forgetting the sheeple mentioned in the iPhone thread.

The general public are all muppets who believe New > Old.

I personally believe it's all a great conspiracy between M$ and hardware manufacturers. Release an OS that they know a whole load of people will want to buy, but requires a new and very expensive computer to run, while having all these hardware products endorsed by M$, thus allowing them to recieve a slice of the sweet pie.

XP to the death! It can last for about 5-6 years i bet.

Husar

01-30-2007, 20:20

I have it but I want to get a new HDD for it first, I want to keep this one for XP for now.

The_Doctor

01-30-2007, 20:29

My University is a part of the Microsoft Developer Network Academic Alliance (MSDNAA), so I can legally get a free copy of Windows Vista Business, as well as a lot other stuff.:yes: I only found out this today.

drone

01-30-2007, 20:45

Beirut

01-30-2007, 22:21

Moved.

Xiahou

01-30-2007, 22:35

I may end up getting it in 2-3 years, but there's no way I'm going to "beta test" Vista. I'm building a machine in the next couple of months, and it's getting XP Pro. There is no upside to Vista, it's a pig, it's got restrictive DRM, and it's ready to be exploited.
But Bill Gates said it's been thoroughly tested, so there's no need to wait. :laugh4:

As a gamer, I'd guess it's gonna be roughly 3yrs until everyone is forced into DX10. I keep hoping for "never" instead of 3yrs, but you've gotta be realistic. :yes:

Kralizec

01-30-2007, 23:02

Not until DX10 Games start coming out enmass.

Ditto.

The Spartan (Returns)

01-30-2007, 23:40

no it costs 1 GB of memory i believe, and games with Shader 3.0 model such as Oblivion will still be worth playing for long.

caravel

01-30-2007, 23:55

It took me so long to move onto XP that it will probably take me longer to move onto Vista. All of the Windows Genuine Advantage stuff is likely to get even more annoying though surely? Anyone heard any info on that?

Husar

01-31-2007, 00:00

Big King Sanctaphrax

01-31-2007, 00:09

Bijo

01-31-2007, 00:43

Heh. Vista Schmista.

Those transparencies look nice, though. I must-- resist-- getting-- Vis-- ta. . . .
Arrgh! That's it! I'm gonna get it, just for the graphics! I mean, truly, it IS a GREAT OS improvement, isn't it?

TevashSzat

01-31-2007, 00:48

It is worthless to just go out and buy Vista now. Better to wait at least until after the first service pack so the problems it has can be worked out. I am probably gonna get it when i upgrade my pc in a year or two

Husar

01-31-2007, 00:53

I am staying well, well away from Vista until I am obliged to upgrade for DX10 games. I really can't believe the extent to which MS have gone for form over function-you know you're in trouble when your new OS's big selling point is 'Transparencies! Woo!'
I think there were more points when I tried the beta but since that was a while ago I forgot about them. Not saying they were big points though. It just felt better here and there.

Caius

01-31-2007, 04:06

Not until DX10 Games start coming out enmass.
i will play old games

Lemur

01-31-2007, 07:14

I'm still kinda nostalgic for Win2k. It had it all, and it ran like greased lightning on everything. Is it wrong to feel a little resentful for having to move to XP? Obviously, I'm going to take my sweet effin' time with Vista. Apparently there is no technical reason why DX10 can't work on XP, so maybe I'll just hang around waiting to see if Microsoft blinks on the issue. Unlikely, I know, but possible.

If you want to read up on the V word, I don't think there's a more comprehensive review than this one (http://www.winsupersite.com/vista/).

sapi

01-31-2007, 09:56

Considering that most of vista's features are focused on buisnesses, i'll hold off until games start relying on dx10

Big King Sanctaphrax

01-31-2007, 14:18

Apparently there is no technical reason why DX10 can't work on XP, so maybe I'll just hang around waiting to see if Microsoft blinks on the issue. Unlikely, I know, but possible.

Even if they don't, I imagine someone will hack it at some point.

caravel

01-31-2007, 14:38

Apparently there is no technical reason why DX10 can't work on XP, so maybe I'll just hang around waiting to see if Microsoft blinks on the issue. Unlikely, I know, but possible.
No reason at all, as far as I can tell either. This is quite simply a ruse to force more XP users onto Vista. Having achieved a virtual monopoly with their graphics API they are now in a position to dictate as to what you buy and when.

edyzmedieval

01-31-2007, 17:14

City-hystery caused by the arrival of Bill Gates in February. In Bucharest, on Magheru Avenue, instead of Christmas lights, we have Windows logos. At least 50 logos on the avenue, because Gates is gonna come to launch Vista.

~:|

caravel

01-31-2007, 17:44

Pope Gates I, ensures that all Cathosoft factions adhere to the code or face excommunication. Once excommunicated other Cathosoft factions can then crusade against that faction. Otholinux and Maclim factions cannot crusade, but can do what they like without the Pope's approval... they may find crusades heading their way though. The Cathosoft code involves the usual indoctrination, invading the users' privacy and working it's way into every part of their lives.

Husar

01-31-2007, 17:58

DukeofSerbia

01-31-2007, 19:27

I'm still kinda nostalgic for Win2k. It had it all, and it ran like greased lightning on everything.

I completely agree. Win 2000 w/SP4 is probably the best MS OS so far, but they abandoned support for it. :thumbsdown:

Bob the Insane

02-01-2007, 04:43

I completely agree. Win 2000 w/SP4 is probably the best MS OS so far, but they abandoned support for it. :thumbsdown:

Gota say that Win2k3 gets my vote... Compared to Win2k I find it a rock solid server OS...

Back to Vista... I got it (just because I am a total sucker for new and shinny things) and am still fighting it onto my system...

Upgrade from WinXP Pro to Vista Ultimate took forever... And it is not a slow machine...

I have vista drivers for MB chipset and NIC and the beta X-FI driver from creative and the latest nVidia driver for my 8800GTX also for vista.

Downloading updates for logitech (my G7 mouse just stopped working with it) and the latest version of nTune...

Worst issue so far... It would appear some content protection widget in Vista does not allow you to view an HD signal via component video. The DVI - HDMI HDCP link thingy seems to be working though except I have it hooked up to be 40" HDTV and using DVI-HDMI you loss some of the visable area off the edges of the screen (a TV thing apparantly). The Component HD connection could compensate for that but as above it no longer appears to function. I thought it was something wrong wth the driver but found info on line about issues with HD output and component connections and vista...

KukriKhan

02-01-2007, 05:34

sapi

02-01-2007, 08:23

Nice one Caravel :yes:

Still, you have to admit that most microsoft products are good, even if you don't like them ;)

caravel

02-01-2007, 09:29

I completely agree. Win 2000 w/SP4 is probably the best MS OS so far, but they abandoned support for it. :thumbsdown:
I've never understood this idea/theory/opinion/whatever, that Win2K/SP4 was the best ever. With some minor tweaking I can turn XP/SP2 into what is effectively a newer, faster, more secure, updated, stable version of Win2K/SP4 so I'm not sure why some people still cling on to it? Am I missing something here? :listen:

naut

02-01-2007, 09:47

@ Caravel: Brilliant.

My PC can't run Vista. My friend has a Macbook, and the irony is that it runs vista better than OSX.

English assassin

02-01-2007, 11:42

I was on Windows 98 until a year ago.

So, no, I don't think I'll be rushing out any time soon...

Anyway, what about all this broken by design DRM stuff? Buying Vista is inviting The Man to tell you what you can do with your own PC :furious3:

sapi

02-01-2007, 11:49

@assassin - not for a long time - enforcing hdcp now would kill the industry

*remembers that he needs to write a debate speech praising laws against music file sharing in the next few days and sighs

pevergreen

02-01-2007, 12:33

My friend has a friend thats a Microsoft Developer (i can say that right? :laugh4:) so he somehow got a copy of the beta of Vista. Looked cool...but now with the connectivity and security issues...I might stay with XP. At least that gets out the trojans et al..albeit with at least five virus protection software running 24/7....

Geoffrey S

02-01-2007, 12:53

I'll be waiting for a long while yet. It's expensive, I barely use a PC right now, and as for games there's still a huge backcatalogue of great games I've yet to buy before I could care particularly about the next generation.

Still, you have to admit that most microsoft products are good, even if you don't like them ;)
No, you don't.

x-dANGEr

02-01-2007, 15:41

caravel

02-01-2007, 16:25

As Sun Tzu would say: "Those skilled in programming do not release the same OS twice, or patch the same security hole three times."

:bow:

:tomato:

:creep:

Lemur

02-01-2007, 19:27

I've never understood this idea/theory/opinion/whatever, that Win2K/SP4 was the best ever. With some minor tweaking I can turn XP/SP2 into what is effectively a newer, faster, more secure, updated, stable version of Win2K/SP4 so I'm not sure why some people still cling on to it? Am I missing something here?
Sure, you can turn off services and de-glitter XP until it feels exactly like Win2K, but that's sort of missing the point. Win2K had all of the essentials that make an MS operating system worthwhile, and almost none of the crapware. You could load it on your grandma's PC, spend less than twenty minutes configuring it, and it would run forever. It was the just-right OS, in this Lemur's opinion.

You call XP a "newer, faster, more secure, updated stable version" of the Holy Grail, Win2K. Let's break that string of adjectives down.

Newer? By definition. So what?

Faster? No, not really, and not in any test I've ever seen published. Default installs of XP are slower than default installs of Win2K. And don't go whinging about how you can reconfigure the OS to be less of a hog; that's beside the point. (And remember, when your friend fries his laptop and asks you for help, it's the default install you'll be dealing with.)

More secure? Marginally, and only because MS stopped releasing updates for Win2K, but with a little TLC you can still secure the OS just fine, thanks very much. It's not as though you want to run WinXP with no 3rd party security, either.

Updated? By definition, but its day will come, and sooner rather than later, especially if users stay away from Vista in droves. MS has no reason not to make XP look bad in the next couple of years.

Stable? Win2K was rock-solid. I worked with it for years, and the only applications that could take it down to the metal were Microsoft Office and Internet Explorer. I never saw a non-Microsoft app take it out. Same goes for XP. I think it's a tie.

Does this help you understand why some of us old geezers have a soft spot for Win2K?

JeromeGrasdyke

02-01-2007, 21:14

Apparently there is no technical reason why DX10 can't work on XP, so maybe I'll just hang around waiting to see if Microsoft blinks on the issue. Unlikely, I know, but possible.

Unfortunately that is not entirely true. The API and the functionality will port, given the right graphics card, but Microsoft radically changed the graphics driver model in Vista, moving the drivers from ring 0 to ring 3. This has completely revamped the performance characteristics of the API... calls that used to be really expensive to make are suddenly dirt cheap because you avoid the kernel mode transitions.

The end result is that an engine written for DirectX 10 on Vista would run fantastically slowly on a hypothetical DirectX 10 for Windows XP - and by fantastically I mean at around 20-30% of the fps. Sorry about that :) Although I have heard some rumours that there may be an updated DirectX 9 which includes some of the new hardware capabilities introduced in DX10.

Enfin... Total War games will support DirectX 9 for a good while yet, so no real reason to worry.

Bob the Insane

02-01-2007, 22:56

An update to my post...

Well Vista is all up and running and such, drivers updated etc... And M2TW totally works fine so I am happy... :2thumbsup:

And the Midway demo functions too...

I will play around with other games and stuff this evening...

Additional: the flick3D thingy gets my vote for most sucky feature so far...

And it rates my machine as 5.1!!! What on earth does that mean???

Apparant it was limited to 5.1 because on my processor... My Intel Core 2 Extreme x6800 processor... :help:

caravel

02-01-2007, 23:01

And don't go whinging about how you can reconfigure the OS to be less of a hog; that's beside the point.
I wasn't planning to whinge. I never whinge! :laugh4:

I stand by my original statement though. Win2k and XP are basically much the same animal: Windows NT5.x. With all of the crap stripped away and properly optimized XP is the better OS.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not an XP fanboy, or a Windows fanboy even. I just happen to think that, at present XP is the best of a bad lot.

:bow:

Xiahou

02-02-2007, 00:01

FWIW, I've always liked XP better as well. When 2000 came out, I used it alot at work but never felt like upgrading from Win98 at home. It was when XP came out that I saw an OS that felt worth upgrading for. And I definitely prefer 2003 server to 2000 server.

drone

02-02-2007, 00:13

Article from HardOCP on Vista.
http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI3MywxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

Not too flattering.

Lemur

02-02-2007, 03:06

The API and the functionality will port, given the right graphics card, but Microsoft radically changed the graphics driver model in Vista, moving the drivers from ring 0 to ring 3. This has completely revamped the performance characteristics of the API... calls that used to be really expensive to make are suddenly dirt cheap because you avoid the kernel mode transitions.

The end result is that an engine written for DirectX 10 on Vista would run fantastically slowly on a hypothetical DirectX 10 for Windows XP - and by fantastically I mean at around 20-30% of the fps.
Ugh, this is sad news. So there's no practical way to get the new driver model ... without buying into the DRM junk bundled with the new OS. Which means that if I want the shiny goodness, I have to purchase a video card with a %#$@*#%! tilt-bit (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12/28/vista_drm_analysis/) built into it.

I guess I'll be sticking with DX9 for a while. Not only will it save me money, but it won't leave that icky pigopolist taste in my mouth.

Papewaio

02-02-2007, 09:54

Guess who I work for. :creep:

Bob the Insane

02-02-2007, 14:33

Vista has this User Access Control setting that is on by default... What a pain it is...

I am using an admin account but trying to do anything remotely admin like involves having vista bombard you with dialogs asking if you really want to do o it and to grant the admin privilage to do it or something along those lines...

Things got a lot more normal after I disabled that...

Lemur

02-02-2007, 16:46

Article from HardOCP on Vista.
http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI3MywxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

Not too flattering.
That article summarized my feelings pretty exactly.

The only amusing thing I've seen in relation to this cluster-suck from Microsoft was the Romanian President telling Gates what a boon software piracy has been for his country (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/01/AR2007020100715.html). If I didn't check the URL, I would have sworn it was from The Onion.

Piracy worked for us, Romania president tells Gates

Reuters, Thursday, February 1, 2007; 9:45 AM

BUCHAREST (Reuters) - Pirated Microsoft Corp software helped Romania to build a vibrant technology industry, Romanian President Traian Basescu told the company's co-founder Bill Gates on Thursday.

Basescu was meeting the software giant's chairman in Bucharest to celebrate the opening of a Microsoft global technical center in the Romanian capital.

"Piracy helped the young generation discover computers. It set off the development of the IT industry in Romania," Basescu said during a joint news conference with Gates.

"It helped Romanians improve their creative capacity in the IT industry, which has become famous around the world ... Ten years ago, it was an investment in Romania's friendship with Microsoft and with Bill Gates."

Gates made no comment.

Former communist Romania, which has just joined the European Union, introduced anti-piracy legislation 10 years ago but copyright infringements are still rampant.

Experts say some 70 percent of software used in Romania is pirated, and salesmen still visit office buildings in central Bucharest to sell pirated CDs and DVDs.

Foreign investors say Romania's IT sector is one of most promising industries in the fast-growing economy thanks to high level of technical education in Romania, low wages and the country's thriving underworld of computers hackers.

caravel

02-02-2007, 17:22

I'm afraid it's a case if M$ releasing the same OS yet again with a few extra gimmicks and toys, which is not what people want from an OS. With DirectX10 as the added bit of leverage.

Lemur

02-02-2007, 17:29

With DirectX10 as the added bit of leverage.
DX10 seems to be the only leverage. I don't know why I find this so upsetting, but I do.

Big King Sanctaphrax

02-02-2007, 17:37

Well, there's the 64-bit capabilities as well, you might feasibly want it for that. But in general, yes, the way DX10 is being used to ram the operating system down people's throats is rather breathtakingly cynical.

Lemur

02-02-2007, 21:20

Well, there's the 64-bit capabilities as well, you might feasibly want it for that.
Nope, that's not strictly true (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx). It's DX10, pure and simple. I feel a need to fall on my knees like Chuck Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes and do some screaming about how "you blew it up." (http://www.moviesoundclips.net/movies1/apes/hell.wav)

Papewaio

02-05-2007, 00:09

edyzmedieval

02-05-2007, 00:37

That article summarized my feelings pretty exactly.

The only amusing thing I've seen in relation to this cluster-suck from Microsoft was the Romanian President telling Gates what a boon software piracy has been for his country (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/01/AR2007020100715.html). If I didn't check the URL, I would have sworn it was from The Onion.

Piracy worked for us, Romania president tells Gates

Reuters, Thursday, February 1, 2007; 9:45 AM

BUCHAREST (Reuters) - Pirated Microsoft Corp software helped Romania to build a vibrant technology industry, Romanian President Traian Basescu told the company's co-founder Bill Gates on Thursday.

Basescu was meeting the software giant's chairman in Bucharest to celebrate the opening of a Microsoft global technical center in the Romanian capital.

"Piracy helped the young generation discover computers. It set off the development of the IT industry in Romania," Basescu said during a joint news conference with Gates.

"It helped Romanians improve their creative capacity in the IT industry, which has become famous around the world ... Ten years ago, it was an investment in Romania's friendship with Microsoft and with Bill Gates."

Gates made no comment.

Former communist Romania, which has just joined the European Union, introduced anti-piracy legislation 10 years ago but copyright infringements are still rampant.

Experts say some 70 percent of software used in Romania is pirated, and salesmen still visit office buildings in central Bucharest to sell pirated CDs and DVDs.

Foreign investors say Romania's IT sector is one of most promising industries in the fast-growing economy thanks to high level of technical education in Romania, low wages and the country's thriving underworld of computers hackers.

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard the president of my country say that on national TV. :thumbsdown:

Husar

02-05-2007, 00:53

Unfortunately what we have is a narrowing of the market. Very few options out their and the leaders are very much into the propriety stick one way or the other.

I would love to see a market where gaming and enterprise level computers could be a mix of any apps on any OS on any hardware... as long as each level had the grunt not the makers mark to run it.
There would still be a need for standardization or otherwise the programming work would be really hard I think. As it is now, there already needs to be optimizing for different hardware, by throwing more differences into the mix, the bugs may become more and more on certain configs.
Standardisation does have it's good sides after all.

PaulTa

02-05-2007, 03:22

:laugh4: No offense to anyone who has already, but you'd have to be the world's biggest sucker to buy Vista before SP2.

SP1 will come out before Christmas, you can count on that 110% (most people wait until SP1 to purchase software, you do the math). SP2 will come out about 6 months later.

Until then, you are all beta testers suckered with cute Aero interfaces. :laugh4:

(All of my information comes from my Dad, who worked on Vista back when it was named after texas cattle).

caravel

02-05-2007, 18:06

(All of my information comes from my Dad, who worked on Vista back when it was named after texas cattle).
"No offence", but it appears to me that you've just turned up here to state the obvious, troll the thread and make us all aware that "daddy works for Ms". :inquisitive:

x-dANGEr

02-07-2007, 21:14

"No offence", but it appears to me that you've just turned up here to state the obvious, troll the thread and make us all aware that "daddy works for Ms". :inquisitive:
I'm sure he didn't intend any hard feelings. So let's take none! ~;)

A nice smiley would be the best course of action.. <-- Me thinks! :idea2:

Thanks for the info, PaulTa! :clown:

The Foolish Horseman

02-07-2007, 23:08

im probably not gonna buy vista until Cod3 comes out on pc, because word has it it will be vista only!! which is why it is not out yet

plus if shogun 2 is on vista only, then vista will end up getting 100s of new customers

AntiochusIII

02-08-2007, 03:37

plus if shogun 2 is on vista only, then vista will end up getting 100s of new customersActually, I suspect some people's aversion to a potentially destructive OS is likely to be stronger than his/her love of the Total War games.

Moreover, Jerome just guaranteed us in this very thread that CA will be releasing games on DX9 for some time yet. Wonderful thing to know, that.

ElectricEel

02-16-2007, 21:18

I would not touch Vista with a ten-foot pole. I might get the cheapest version for gaming purproses only, after games that I want to have start making heavy use of DX10, but it will probably be quite a while before that point.

I personally believe it's all a great conspiracy between M$ and hardware manufacturers. Release an OS that they know a whole load of people will want to buy, but requires a new and very expensive computer to run, while having all these hardware products endorsed by M$, thus allowing them to recieve a slice of the sweet pie. I rather doubt that. From what I've read, the DRM crap in Vista has to be integrated into new sound and graphics hardware, which drives up development costs; this should show in the price tag of the products, narrowing the market and making people more reluctant to upgrade.

Husar

02-16-2007, 22:23

I rather doubt that. From what I've read, the DRM crap in Vista has to be integrated into new sound and graphics hardware, which drives up development costs; this should show in the price tag of the products, narrowing the market and making people more reluctant to upgrade.
Didn't that already happen?
My 7950Gt has "HDTV" and "HDCP" written on the package so I guess that incorporation is already done and to be honest, I didn't really notice it.

sapi

02-17-2007, 03:30

The thing that everyone misses in the vista DRM debate is that if vista didn't support it, you wouldn't be able to watch anything, even if you had the right hardware

The Spartan (Returns)

02-17-2007, 04:22

why cant we play games like Halo 2 and CoD3 on XP too? i hear its only Vista!

sapi

02-17-2007, 04:25

Halo 2 is a dx10 tech demo (so it's meant to only run on dx10 and thus vista)

not sure about CoD3 though

You'd need a new gfx card to play them anyway :laugh4:

Husar

02-17-2007, 11:58

The thing that everyone misses in the vista DRM debate is that if vista didn't support it, you wouldn't be able to watch anything, even if you had the right hardware
Well, in that case everybody would complain about being unable to watch new movies on Vista and how the big evil Microsoft screwed it up so much etc.:sweatdrop:

sapi

02-17-2007, 12:00

Exactly :laugh4:

Lemur

02-18-2007, 19:35

Everybody would complain about being unable to watch new movies on Vista and how the big evil Microsoft screwed it up so much etc.
Way to over-simplify the issues involved! Bravo!

Look, the providers of technology need to negotiate with the content providers over where and how much to restrict our ability to use technology as designed. This has been going on for decades. What gets people like me riled up is the way Microsoft bent over backwards for the content providers, and gave them everything they demanded and then some.

It's supposed to be a negotiation, not a capitulation. But if you want to see peoples' concern about Vista DRM as blind, stupid Microsoft-bashing, well, that's your privilege.

Papewaio

02-19-2007, 00:59

Sounds like a great business chance for Apple... so what are they doing with the content providers.

Husar

02-19-2007, 01:02

Way to over-simplify the issues involved! Bravo!

Look, the providers of technology need to negotiate with the content providers over where and how much to restrict our ability to use technology as designed. This has been going on for decades. What gets people like me riled up is the way Microsoft bent over backwards for the content providers, and gave them everything they demanded and then some.

It's supposed to be a negotiation, not a capitulation. But if you want to see peoples' concern about Vista DRM as blind, stupid Microsoft-bashing, well, that's your privilege.
No, I'm not a big fan of that decision either, but I can accept it.
Concerning their negotiations, we don't really know how they went, who was doing them and who influenced who by which means etc. so I wouldn't judge that too fast either.

I also wonder what happened to TCPA?
Wasn't that supposed to be included in the next Microsoft OS?
I'd just hate Vista telling me I cannot install for example Mount&Blade simply because the devs didn't pay a few millions to Microsoft or whoever is responsible for that.

Xiahou

02-19-2007, 02:22

I have yet to see an unbiased review of Vista that actually gave it a solid thumbs up. Were I ordering a new computer anytime soon, I'd want it loaded with XP, not Vista. And if it's as bloated as so many are saying that it is, XP could possibly be my last MS OS. :shrug:

Here's (http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2007/01/10/tech-microsoft.html) an amusing little story that cites anonymous Microsoft executives complaining about computer makers installing non-MS approved applications on their computers. I like how they refer to 3rd party applications as "craplets"- really classy. Sounds to me like they're trying to get out ahead in the upcoming finger-pointing by blaming software makers if their software no longer works in Vista. If only they had paid their protection money to Microsoft, they wouldn't have this problem. :rolleyes:

Lemur

02-19-2007, 18:41

Were I ordering a new computer anytime soon, I'd want it loaded with XP, not Vista.
I'm having a friend who builds systems slap me together a small, cheap laptop. For the same cost he can load it with Vista or XP (don'tcha love how MS keeps old licenses as expensive or more expensive than the new ones?).

You can guess from my previous posts which way I'm going on this. For the same price, XP is a much better deal.

Papewaio

02-20-2007, 05:20

Its to do with the way business licenses are done. You now pay $X per seat which gets you access to the OS and/or Office Products of any supported version.

As before you never buy software you buy a license to use it. I don't think car licenses are based on the car type you drive...

pevergreen

02-20-2007, 09:13

I am annoyed with Supreme Commander now. New game from the makers of TA.

Minimum specs have XP. Reccomended have Vista :angry:

sapi

02-20-2007, 09:51

I believe it's to do with the games for windows branding - it makes absolutely no difference (and the vista version will probably run worse)

The Foolish Horseman

03-11-2007, 20:35

I agree, DX10 games won't be a factor for at least another year, possibly longer.

DX10 games are out in June. Alan Wake, Halo 2 and Crysis are the first

Bijo

03-11-2007, 22:24

[...]

Here's (http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2007/01/10/tech-microsoft.html) an amusing little story that cites anonymous Microsoft executives complaining about computer makers installing non-MS approved applications on their computers. I like how they refer to 3rd party applications as "craplets"- really classy. Sounds to me like they're trying to get out ahead in the upcoming finger-pointing by blaming software makers if their software no longer works in Vista. If only they had paid their protection money to Microsoft, they wouldn't have this problem. :rolleyes:
Protection money :laugh4: This damn mafia corporation. People in respectable suits, looking and acting respectable, but in the meanwhile they's dirty like Hell. Hrrrr.

I was thinking of getting XP 64-bit, but when I think about it, I might as well wait and buy Vista when it's more or less patched up. XP won't be leaving us just yet :)

Husar

03-12-2007, 01:21

I was thinking of getting XP 64-bit, but when I think about it, I might as well wait and buy Vista when it's more or less patched up. XP won't be leaving us just yet :)
I have heard that XP 64 is quite buggy.
I'M running Vista Business 64bit for about a week now and I don't really know what they could patch. Didn't have a single crash or bluescreen, only problem was that home basic and business have no included DVD video codec and the only compatible DVD player I found was Win DVD 8, but that works great so far, just too bad it's only a 14-day trial and costs 40EUR afterwards(yes, I did try some free codec package but that didn't help).
Well, apart from that I just turned off that account protection thing because it didn't allow the graphics driver to save settings.

Now I can see people getting all worked up over that because "oh noes, it needs a ton of tweaks", but XP needs even more IMO and that's why Vista makes me happy, it seems reliable, "smooth" and everything feels more complete all around.
I'd keep XP on another partition for incompatibilities, but so far all the games I installed are running fine(M2TW, Gothic 3, Anno 1701, Boiling Point and Mount&Blade), didn't even notice any big differences in performance so far.

Ahh, writing half an essay again, well, if you have questions, ask them and maybe I can even answer them.:sweatdrop:

Gawain of Orkeny

03-12-2007, 03:27

I was in best buy yesterday pricing PCs . I couldnt believe not one came with XP, they only came with Vista overnight. Why buy something untested when xp is so well developed and tested?

Lemur

03-12-2007, 04:20

Gawain, this is why Microsoft has not been in a tizzy over low sales of Vista. They don't care, since they expect the majority of sales to come from people buying new PCs. The only way to get XP on a new PC will be to go to a local builder.

You could always wipe the hard drive when it comes and re-install a legitimate copy of XP. It's work, and you'd need to have your drivers ready to go, but it's kind of nice to have your hand firmly on what goes into your boxen.

Gawain of Orkeny

03-12-2007, 04:35

The only way to get XP on a new PC will be to go to a local builder.

Which is exactly what Im doing. Again lol.

Husar

03-12-2007, 12:20

I was in best buy yesterday pricing PCs . I couldnt believe not one came with XP, they only came with Vista overnight. Why buy something untested when xp is so well developed and tested?
Well, that statement could be applied to everything including hardware. Why buy a mainboard before you can be sure there will be no more BIOS upgrades?
It all depends on your point of view. Why sail the unknown ocean for a new route to India if there is a well established one already?~;)

Lemur

03-12-2007, 15:32

Yeah, Gawain, why aren't you searching for a new route for the Indes spice trade? Why? Why? WHY?

Husar

03-12-2007, 16:10

Yeah, Gawain, why aren't you searching for a new route for the Indes spice trade? Why? Why? WHY?
Good question, where is the old spirit of exploration? He could find a new route thousands of miles beneath the sea, maybe through the core.....:sweatdrop:

Well, all I wanted to say was that just because it's anew OS from Microsoft, it's not necessarily bad. I'm just trying to judge things myself and get rid of certain prejudices I had before. I also did hate Windows back with 95, 98 and ME which were very prone to crashes, but XP was decent and with Vista I have experienced no major problems yet and I tried the Beta2, RC1 and now the final business version.
Maybe it's because I like new shiny things or because I generally like new things, but then again I don't like Command and Conquer 3.:sweatdrop:

I don't know, maybe I'm one of them (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/print/62/5)? :sweatdrop: :laugh4:

edit: so many sweatdrops, good thing I can swim...

Ja'chyra

03-12-2007, 16:47

Well I've got Vista on my new pc and my Mrs laptop and, after some getting used to, it seems to be quite good, got M2TW, EQ2, EVE, Warhammer to work all without too much bother.

And if I can do it anyone can

caravel

03-12-2007, 17:50

I think the issue is not as to what games will and will not work, I would assume that almost everything that currently runs on Windows 2000 (NT5.0), Windows XP (NT5.1) and Windows Server 2003 (NT5.2) to run on Vista (NT6.0). This is still basically the same NT OS that began with NT3.x, when it separated from IBM's OS/2. It has a lot of extra bells and whistles, and a lot of extra bloat but it's the same animal. The main issues people will have are the extra memory usage, more restrictive DRM and product activation etc. This is why many people will avoid it.

Xiahou

03-12-2007, 18:09

Well, all I wanted to say was that just because it's anew OS from Microsoft, it's not necessarily bad. I'm just trying to judge things myself and get rid of certain prejudices I had before. I also did hate Windows back with 95, 98 and ME which were very prone to crashes, but XP was decent and with Vista I have experienced no major problems yet and I tried the Beta2, RC1 and now the final business version.
Because I know everyone is really interested in hearing what I have to say:
I was a Win95 hater- I thought 3.11 was fine. Once I was forced into it, I was ok with it though. I loved 98se, hated Me, 2000 was ok- but I don't like it on my personal PC (XP is better) and I like 2003 better on servers. Currently, I'm a Vista hater- I have yet to see a single "must have" feature that I want and it has lots that I don't.

Husar

03-12-2007, 19:33

The main issues people will have are the extra memory usage, more restrictive DRM and product activation etc. This is why many people will avoid it.
The product activation is exactly the same as in XP, you click a button and it activates itself. Now who avoided XP because of that?
DRM is something I do not know about because I don't think I have any DVDs that require it and am not going to buy any in the future.
And about the extra memory usage I would have to run Gothic 3 again, but my small test-run didn't seem to be different from what I had in XP, and it's a very memory-demanding game. How much memory it uses in idle state is not a great concern for me. For many fullscreen applications, AeroGlass is deactivated, I wouldn't be surprised if it cuts back on other things as well to free ressources for games etc.
But that's just a guess, I wouldn't want to try it on a 256MB machine, but that is horrible with XP as well.

I have yet to see a single "must have" feature that I want and it has lots that I don't.
Well, that's because there are no "must have" features, but that doesn't mean one should avoid it at all costs. If you can choose between Vista and XP, take Vista, if you have no problems with XP, keep it for now. I would have kept XP if I hadn't gotten Vista for free. I certainly wouldn't have bought it.
Though I wonder what features there are that you do not want?
Well, there is DRM, but as long as you avoid content that uses DRM, it's inactive and the content cannot be used with XP either.

Hepcat

03-12-2007, 19:47

I'll only get Vista when I am forced to. Hopefully thats a long time away.

Xiahou

03-12-2007, 22:27

Though I wonder what features there are that you do not want?
Well, there is DRM, but as long as you avoid content that uses DRM, it's inactive and the content cannot be used with XP either.
User Account Protection? The lack of driver support? Rapid install also seems like a needless burden. Then there's the bloated interface, which I guess you can disable but then you're left with what?

Vista seems like what I'd call a solution looking for a problem. Combine that with an even bigger dose of Microsoft tedium than we've dealt with under XP and I'm pretty disinterested.

Husar

03-13-2007, 02:55

User Account Protection? The lack of driver support? Rapid install also seems like a needless burden. Then there's the bloated interface, which I guess you can disable but then you're left with what?

Vista seems like what I'd call a solution looking for a problem. Combine that with an even bigger dose of Microsoft tedium than we've dealt with under XP and I'm pretty disinterested.
I said before that you can deactivate the user account protection, I'd actually recommend it because it didn't allow the NVidia driver to save settings. It's one of the few things that require a restart if you change them.
The only driver I installed is the NVidia graphics driver, the rest came with Vista, or not, in case of my TV card. But it's a problem of Hauppauge that they didn't develop one for Vista for my TV card. Driver support has always been a problem with a new OS and so far my experience with Linux concerning driver support was far worse than with any Windows I've had.
And you hate the interface just because 1. you've never used it before and 2. you want to hate it because it's cool to hate graphical improvements these days.~;)
The fast install thing I have never seen, you are always searching for problems in the solution I think. I'm usually searching for the good things as long as the bad ones don't bother me. And the fast installation is one that I haven't seen yet so I don't know why it should be a problem for me?

Xiahou

03-13-2007, 17:27

Where's the incentive to upgrade to a new OS that has no features that I want and includes many features that I'll want to turn off?

And you hate the interface just because 1. you've never used it before and 2. you want to hate it because it's cool to hate graphical improvements these days.Yes, I guess it us "cool" to be skeptical of a shiny new interface that looks pretty, but involves no real productivity savings and requires a significant hardware investment just to be able to run it. How trendy of me. :yes:

Your defense of it seems to revolve around how it's no worse than XP. How is it an argument in favor of a new OS when the best things you can say about it is that it's no worse than your current on once you turn off all the annoying "features"?

Husar

03-13-2007, 20:27

Where's the incentive to upgrade to a new OS that has no features that I want and includes many features that I'll want to turn off?
Yes, I guess it us "cool" to be skeptical of a shiny new interface that looks pretty, but involves no real productivity savings and requires a significant hardware investment just to be able to run it. How trendy of me. :yes:
If you would call an Athlon XP 2400+ and a GeForce 6600GT a significant hardware investment...because that is the system I ran the beta 2 on. and yes, I even played games on that beta 2, the demo of Company of Heroes is one I remember, it ran pretty fine on low to medium settings IIRC.

Your defense of it seems to revolve around how it's no worse than XP. How is it an argument in favor of a new OS when the best things you can say about it is that it's no worse than your current on once you turn off all the annoying "features"?
I never said anything about annoying features, annoying for me is usually when you cannot turn it off. And like I said before, it's not really worth upgrading, but if you have to buy a new OS anyway, you could just as well go for Vista. Have you even ever used Vista?

Xiahou

03-13-2007, 21:05

I never said anything about annoying features, annoying for me is usually when you cannot turn it off.Annoying for me is when it's something nobody wants or uses, but is forced on you anyway. When you work on as many different PCs as I do it's very much an annoyance to turn it off whenever I need to get work done. :yes:

it's not really worth upgradingAh-ha! My job is done here. :clown:

Husar

03-13-2007, 21:37

Ah-ha! My job is done here. :clown:
If that was all you wanted, your job was done before it even started.~;)

I thinkthe difference between you and me is that I have one private computer which I use for gaming so I like to have some eye candy and so on and can take some time to figure out how to get rid of annoying features.
I can understand that doing thousands of things on hundreds of computers can be annoying, but I found installing Vista easier and faster than installing XP and that was mainly because it had all the drivers you need(on a business machine, you wouldn't really need the ForceWare driver) and there are not as many upgrades to download and install as there are for XP(I remember more than 70 even after installing SP2). The Business version also comes without built-in games and maybe other gadgets I don't know of. Maybe you should just try it if you can get your hands on it.~:)

Bijo

03-13-2007, 22:47

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on Vista... if I could only do so cheaply. I got a question though: Vista comes both in 32- and 64-bit, right? Just wondering, for some reason I can't find that simple info anywhere.

And here, to rub some more salt into certain people's wounds, I found a nice link where you can subscribe to the Vista magazine: http://www.windowsvistamagazine.com/UK/?wt_svl=20289a&mg_id=20289b :laugh4: I stumbled upon it accidentally, so I thought I'd share it with all of you who like Vista so much :smash:

Lemur

03-13-2007, 23:01

I got a question though: Vista comes both in 32- and 64-bit, right? Just wondering, for some reason I can't find that simple info anywhere.
Yes, Vista comes in both flavors (http://blogs.msdn.com/tims/archive/2006/05/28/609372.aspx). The 64-bit version has a number of security advantages over 32-bit, but there are serious compatibility issues (http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_06.asp) to consider.

I hear Windows Vista Magazine has a centerfold with suggestive pictures of Aero Glass ... sign me up!

Bijo

03-15-2007, 22:32

Thanks Lemur. That was a good read :)

I hope the 64-bit version will get better support and such soon enough.

Lemur

03-20-2007, 05:52

Ars Technica has finally put out their full review (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/pretty-vista.ars). They're always worth a read.

Beirut

03-20-2007, 11:21

A review from wargamer.com.

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/vista_impressions_1/

I love this line in the Vista warranty:

LIMITED WARRANTY. If you follow the instructions and the software is properly licensed, the software will perform substantially as described in the Microsoft materials that you receive in or with the software.

Substantially? You mean almost?

Ten days after Microsoft cashes my check for purchasing Vista, a substantial portion of the funds will be released to them. :grin2:

Caius

03-24-2007, 20:06

Is there a Vista demo?

Lemur

03-24-2007, 20:30

Sort of. Kinda. Microsoft has a Flash-based web demo (http://www.seewindowsvista.com/). It's not great, but I suppose it's better than nothing.

Also, I believe Vista will function for a period of time before activation shuts it down, so if you know somebody who has a legit copy, you could try it out for a little while before it nukes itself.

Caius

03-24-2007, 20:56

Thank you!

Lemur

04-05-2007, 03:57

Poll numbers for Vista (http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2007/04/04/survey-most-people-know-about-vista-but-few-intend-to-upgrade/) ain't so great. Why do we resist? The Borg will assimilate us sooner or later.

The Harris Poll of 2223 US online adults in early March found that 87% were aware of Vista. Unfortunately for Microsoft, only 12% of Vista-aware respondents were intending to upgrade to Vista in the next 12 months.

A similar Harris Poll in December 2006, just one month before Vista’s consumer launch, found that 47% of those online were aware of Vista, and that 20% intended to upgrade in the coming year.

It seems that while Microsoft’s “Wow Starts Now” marketing campaign has boosted awareness of Vista, it hasn’t substantially increased the total number of people planning to upgrade.

[edit]

Also, HardOCP has a nice write-up of living with Vista for 30 days (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTMxOCwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==). They did the same thing with Linux a while back.

Husar

04-05-2007, 10:49

That living with Vista for 30 days sounds like a fair article(read only the conclusions), but since he mentions a lot of annoying prompts and data loss I guess he did not deactivate that annoying user account protection stuff, IMO the OS is a lot better without it(maybe not if your PC is supposed to be a fortress and you want to give each and every permission yourself, i.e. if you're a controlfreak ~;) ).
And I personally haven't come around any stability problems so far, except for unoptimised software, which, of course, is an issue(I'm thinking of Stalker which crashed with every second attempt of saving the game:wall: )

But all in all, a nice summary.:2thumbsup:

Lemur

07-20-2007, 19:47

Another good reason to stay with XP for a while:

Vista ate my hard drive. (http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/07/battle_to_the_death_windows_vi.php) The guy's been at it for weeks, and he still can't figure out why Vista is taking up 50 gigs extra on his hard drive.

Husar

07-21-2007, 11:32

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6174799/index.html

~:rolleyes:

Husar

07-23-2007, 11:22

http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=7205

I think I can agree with this, there should have been only one Ultimate version for 100$.

I have XP Pro and Vista Business and neither has media center. Now my TV card is getting really old and I can't even receive some "standard" channels which moved their frequencies, so I was thinking to get a new one. But most packages say "experience XYZ etc pp with windows media center".:wall:
Can only hope that some of them bothered to make a stand-alone program for their cards. I can't and don't want to afford a Vista for several hundred EUR, most of my advertising comes from the fact that I got it for free, if I had to pay for it I wouldn't have Vista now.:laugh4:
It's still quite nice, but horribly overpriced if you altready have an XP.

Lemur

07-24-2007, 15:04

Acer is not happy: (http://www.physorg.com/news104405791.html)

The head of Taiwan-based personal computer maker Acer, Gianfranco Lanci, hit out at Microsoft's Windows Vista operating system, saying that the "entire industry" was disappointed by it. "The entire industry is disappointed by Windows Vista," the head of the world's fourth-biggest PC maker told the Financial Times Deutschland in its online edition on Monday.

Never before had a new version of Windows done so little to boost PC sales.

"And that's not going to change in the second half of this year," Lanci said.

"I really don't think that someone has bought a new PC specifically for Vista," he added.

Microsoft's operating system commands a market share of around 90 percent, with Apple and Linux accounting for the rest.

While the industry had waited for years for Vista, the software was not really ready when it was launched to great pomp at the start of this year, Lanci complained.

"Stability is certainly a problem," he said.

Acer, with annual sales of 11.3 billion dollars (8.2 billion euros), ranks number four in the PC market behind Hewlett-Packard, Dell and Lenovo.