Freedom and society don't mix. Curse propriety

[Cronos Impera]

Civilization was build by salves not free men.If you want freedom, buy a tent and go live in the bushes. There you can truely be free. The basis of the democratic society are the same as in dictatorship, the only difference being that in tyrany you're being pushed by one man and in democracy by the whole crowd itself.
If someone could compare man throught it's history the golden age of freedom has long passed. The basis of freedom is land, the basis of society is propriety.Man has transformed anything into propriety, and now there isn't a patch of land that isn't someone's propriety. Propriety has created inequality and those who own less try to own more and sexual selection has given way to a propriety-based selection.Healthier free men are thrown away by wealthier myrmidons. By what force did that happen?
Isn't democracy all about the heard oppresing itself. Aren't we fooled to belive that supporting civilization you support freedom?Isn't the entire history of civilization just a problem of who owns what or who owns who?In the past people didn't have the liberty of speech, but who needed it? People could move across rivers and pastures without being shot at for illegal border crossing, fugitives could hide in the woods and survive there untill the danger had passed and people could dissapear alltoghether because there was noone monitoring them from outer-space. But than as society developed more and more things ware regulated and free-thinkers developed new ways of expressing their freedom and society integrated those concepts that ware also regulated in such a way that the last true bastions of freedom ware abolished.
You're living in a democratic state but is that a free state? No. You're free only to convince others to let you do what you want. In totalitarianism you had to convince one, now you have to convince all others as each one has a word to say. It would be all nice if communication was like this forum where you only share opinions and hear others share theirs, but now communication has turned into a game of dominance and power.
Slaves will never be free, because in society for one's freedom another one must bear the shackels of wage labour.

[Ser Clegane]

To quote Janis Joplin:

"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose' "

[English assassin]

Tough day huh?

I'll play.

You can only be truly free in society. Freedom, surely, means the freedom to make choices, to exercise control over ones life, to be who you want to be. (cue orchestral crescendo)

Society multiplies choices. Living in a tent in the woods, what choices do you have? Will I go to the stream today and look for fish, or will I hunt for berries. Shall I go in my tent when it rains, or shall I get wet. Shall i stare at the wall of my tent, or go to sleep. There's no real diversity in the hunter gatherer field.

Now consider the man in society. Which of a thousand careers will he pursue? On entering a bookshop, he can commune with any of the great minds of the last two millenia. Bloody hell, he's got the choice of about 15 different COFFEES, for heavens sake. (I'm an espresso man myself. latte is for girls.) Sure, someone has to go to work and be paid to serve me my coffee, but that too is freedom. Certainly seems better than living on raw grubhs.

True freedom can be realised only amongst the company of your peers.

As for ownership, pah. Go to the local library (well, you obviously won't buy anything:beam: )and read Seneca. He'll give you the right perspective. :yes:

[doc_bean]

So: what you do if you had perfect freedom ?

[Cronos Impera]

Yep, tough day indeed. Now herding in Romania has become illegal and sheep herders have to use the highways and trucks to move their sheep. Sometimes I envy australians.
http://www.jurnalul.ro/poze/0/0/0/0/0/0/1/0/2/1024poza2.jpg

[Cronos Impera]

If I had perfect freedom I would get a tent, a laptop + wireless satelite connection and post from the dephs of the forests after a hunting trip. That would be awsome, if you could pass international borders at any point without being checked or shot or shot after being checked.

[Cronos Impera]

True freedom can only be achieved in nature with others who don't dominate or get dominated themselves by you.What have we earned?What have we lost? The freedom of movement was lost in favour for the freedom of speech, a right to be used strictly in society. We're losing natural rights in favour of social ones which don't mean anything unless you are a Machiavelian genius to use them and hardly anyone can proclaim himself a machiavelian genius.

=A request for the lord and master of the pagoda, Ser Clegane. Would you mind merging posts no.5 and 6 and deleting one for me.Due to the warning I received a few days ago I can't edit my posts, so whenever I have to edit something I have to post again and again and again=

[KukriKhan]

“Everything is good in leaving the hands of the Creator of Things; everything degenerates in the hands of man.” - Rousseau, 1762.

Our Mr. Cronos Impera seeks, I think, to futher the concept of The Noble Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage) , but from the jaundiced eye of a disappointed romantic.

It's not that what he says is untrue, on its face. It just ignores the fundamental truth that societies, whether 'civilized' (city-fied), rural, or hunter-gatherer, are nonetheless societies, and the boundries of one man's/group's land will always intersect with another's boundries, and conflict (and hopefully, resolution) will occur. It's just a matter of degree.

[Cronos Impera]

Kukri, can you live with the fact that you cannot cross the Rio Grande without being shot at? Can you keep a horse and go to work mounted not on a OCC chopper, but an authentic stalion? Not.Is it normal to swim in a lake and be shot at becouse it's private propriety? Can you live with the fact than anything can be bought or sold, from great forests to entire mountaines without regret and that anyone can control you through propriety?

[English assassin]

[QUOTE=KukriKhan]- Rousseau, 1762.

Our Mr. Cronos Impera seeks, I think, to futher the concept of The Noble Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage) , but from the jaundiced eye of a disappointed romantic.


I'll see your Rousseau and raise you a Hobbes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes


Life in the state of nature is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"


Sometimes I envy australians.

Steady on, sport. Surely things aren't THAT bad? :laugh4:

[KukriKhan]

I'll see your Rousseau and raise you a Hobbes

:laugh4:

Hello Cronos Impera. I live in the US, and despite the rhetoric about illegal aliens, we have a pretty good relationship with our Canadian & Mexican neighbors, when it comes to border crossings. Nothing prevents me from crossing the Rio Grande unscathed, nor stops me from riding a stallion down Grand Avenue in my town, or swimming or fishing at Lake Wohlford - which I don't personally own.

What is required is that I respect our social contract, which specifies that I notify the actual owner of that property that I intend to use it or transit it. He/they can say: "Yes, come on", or "Yes, but give me something ($$$)", or "No". If I disagree with "No", or "$$$", I go to the designated judge of such matters, submit my complaint, and abide by the judgment.

Can I live with that? Yup. It beats eternal, daily conflict.

[English assassin]

:laugh4:

Hello Cronos Impera. I live in the US, and despite the rhetoric about illegal aliens, we have a pretty good relationship with our Canadian & Mexican neighbors, when it comes to border crossings. Nothing prevents me from crossing the Rio Grande unscathed, nor stops me from riding a stallion down Grand Avenue in my town, or swimming or fishing at Lake Wohlford - which I don't personally own.

What is required is that I respect our social contract, which specifies that I notify the actual owner of that property that I intend to use it or transit it. He/they can say: "Yes, come on", or "Yes, but give me something ($$$)", or "No". If I disagree with "No", or "$$$", I go to the designated judge of such matters, submit my complaint, and abide by the judgment.

Can I live with that? Yup. It beats eternal, daily conflict.

That's it: Leviathan in two paragraphs. :yes:

It took Hobbes a whole book to say that you know....:2thumbsup:

[lars573]

To quote Janis Joplin:

"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose' "
You mean to quote Kris Kristofferson. He wrote that.

[KukriKhan]

You mean to quote Kris Kristofferson. He wrote that.

with Fred Foster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Foster) one of those guys we always forget.

[Sensei Warrior]

Freedom in the sense that Cronos is saying, doesn't exist. Freedom is just the carrot instead of the stick. The idea of it is what keeps us slogging through the various iterations of slavery life has laid out before us. No one is truely free to do anything, but they are free to think what they wish, as long as you don't expect to be able to act on it.

[Strike For The South]

Why do you hate freedom?

[Kanamori]

Dude... he's not a Texan.

[Watchman]

That's it: Leviathan in two paragraphs. :yes:

It took Hobbes a whole book to say that you know....:2thumbsup:Hobbes was writing around the time of the Thirty Years' War and the breakthrough of the "Westphalian" centralized state, which understandably enough struck contemporaries as the only real alternatives - bloody chaos on one side, the all-consuming Leviathan state apparatus on the other. Kinda shows in the man's work, I've been given to understand.

Didn't quite turn out that way, of course.

[Papewaio]

if you could pass international borders at any point without being checked or shot or shot after being checked.

Isn't that what being within the EU allows?

[Fisherking]

It would seem our friend is in crises.

A man is only free if he thinks he is.

If you believe you are being oppressed then that condition exists whither there is an actual oppressor or not.

What ever has happened don't make it a reflection on who you are or a matter of your self worth.

Women and Governments are fickle and do stupid things with little or no reason.

Don't take their actions personally; no one can affect your self worth except you. No one can make you happy except you. You should know that you are as good a man as any other and stop letting the opinions of others affect who you are.

Most everything in life is a concuss decision. Decide you are happy and no one can take it from you.
Decide that you are as good as anyone else and no one can take it from you, no matter what else they may do to you. No one but you can affect those things.

[ajaxfetish]

Women and Governments are fickle and do stupid things with little or no reason.

I tend to think men are just as prone to do stupid things as women, but meh.

Ajax

[Fisherking]

I tend to think men are just as prone to do stupid things as women, but meh.

Ajax
No one has a monopoly on stupid. The example had more to do with fickle …All in all I would say that men can be much stupider than women but that is just a generality.


:oops:

[Watchman]

Well, statistically, 51% of babies born are male. The numbers even out by adulthood, mainly due to testosterone-induced Darwinization. Go fig.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, statistically, 51% of babies born are male. The numbers even out by adulthood, mainly due to testosterone-induced Darwinization. Go fig.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Brilliant.

As to Freedom, I quite like the fact that, being a slave to society, I can go out to work and reasonably expect my (theoretical) wife and kids to be alive when I get home.

Isn't slavery terrible?

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

Ah...the romantic wild man myth. Men living in harmony with nature and other fuzzy little creatures. It never gets old. And it never got any truer...

[Hosakawa Tito]

Work shall set you free.

[Watchman]

Nah, city air is way better for that. Just ask the serfs.

[AntiochusIII]

Like I said somewhere else, let her come and oppress me. :beam:

I hate Freedom, you see.

[Csargo]

Like I said somewhere else, let her come and oppress me. :beam:

I hate Freedom, you see.

Yes, but why do you hate freedom?

[AntiochusIII]

Yes, but why do you hate freedom?She's fat.

[Csargo]

She's fat.

Yes, she is just don't tell her that.