How does one deal with the mongols?

[theweedking]

they keep ruining my game they wipe out so many factions and clear out the map but never seem to weakon or die.

[The Unknown Guy]

In vanilla, they were a blaze of glory for me (Byzantium). They jump in, cream up the turks, batter themselves against my men-at-arms-and-arbalesters formations, and eventually they get killed without heirs somewhere west.

In the pocket mod (or in my current game, at least) they seem to have come to stay, and are not getting crippled because troop excess, for now. They even got as far as Wallachia (I´m trying to find their Khan to strike a truce, as I dont want them pestering me on two borders)

Overall, you can exploit them to crush your enemies if you´re in a weakened position in the east. Just hold on till 1230something, and wait till the vast horde of mongol warriors deals with your foes. Just make sure that at least the first wave doesnt hit you.

[Adrian II]

Overall, you can exploit them to crush your enemies if you´re in a weakened position in the east.That's about their only use, but it is a great one. However, if you are in a strong position, no matter where on the map, the Horde are scripted to come after you. They will come after you first if they can, and they will come only after you as long as the AI has nothing else to throw at you.

The only real strategy is salami tactics: let them spread over a series of provinces first, then eat the smaller stacks by outmaneuvering them. Use your fleet to execute surprise invasions.

Of course there are various exploits to fight them, but I don't 'do' exploits since they are dishonourabe (a leftover from my Shogun days).

The rest is tactics, experience. Which reminds me I should post something in the battle tactics thread one of these days about the Mongol 'pincer tactic'. See you there, theweedking.

In the mean time I wish you good luck! :bow:

[Martok]

This may not run to your tastes, but it should also be noted that the Golden Horde seems to be more vulnerable to assassination than other factions -- cut off the head, and the snake dies.... ~;)

[macsen rufus]

If the Mongols come after you, just prepare for some monster battles! Woods are your friends - missiles don't penetrate, horses don't fight well; depending on your faction you need lots of arbalests, halbards and fast cavalry. A few regular archers also help as they're better for taking out the horse archers. Also handgunners or arquebusiers are worth snapping up if you find them in your mercenary pool, there's nothing like the whiff of gunpowder for scaring them away. If you're really strapped for cash, then hiding in the woods with lots of woodsmen is also surprisingly effective.

Just remember the best tactical defence is the "do nothing" defence. Be the rock that the Mongol waves break on. Use your missiles sparingly, don't have everything on fire at will. Pick your moment for best effect. Don't counter-attack too soon, as you'll exhaust your troops when the Mongols still have another twenty units waiting to join the battle! The mongol tactic of feigned retreat is used well by the AI, so beware.... :skull: Check out Adrian II's "mongol pincer" as a way of dealing with MHAs (there, that'll make sure he does his write up now :beam: )

The issue with the Mongols is not the quality, but the quantity of their troops. It's endless, wave after wave after wave..... and as Martok said, cut off the head. Once the Khan is dead (he appears with no heirs), then the mongols become rebels, and well suited for bribing. A human player can make much better use of mongol units than the AI can :2thumbsup: I like to have at least one "Mongol" column in my forces.

I prefer to kill the Khan in battle rather than with a single blade, as it usually allows you to knock off a few thousand of his demoralised troops at the same time :beam:

It's definitely better when the Horde go for your enemies rather than you, and it is sometimes possible to get an alliance (princesses work best, of course...) However, whatever campaign I'm doing I nearly always seem to have captured the middle east just around 1225AD and meet the Horde shortly afterwards. I don't think I've ever seen them expand much further than Syria to the south or Kiev to the west, though. Certainly they've never been as effective in my games as they were in reality. Salami strategy is the way to go, let them spread out and thin out, but remember to start rolling them back before they have the cash and facilities to start fresh troop training.

Happy mongol slaying :2thumbsup:

[Adrian II]

That is one solid anti-Mongol primer, macsen rufus.

I am morally obliged now to do that tactical 'Mongol pincer' write up. Lemme see. I have a Danish and Sicilian campaign to finish. After which I am going to mod the faction re-emergence code. Um.. :dizzy2:

[Scurvy]

I tend not to prepare for them, when they do arrive it just takes a few quite large battles, normally with me defending to hold them off, normally they expand too far and get ambushed by all the other eastern factions (me included) :)

:2thumbsup:

[Mooks]

Run away!! run very very far away!!

Seriosly, halbidiers take out mongol calvary like scissors and paper. They are brick walls.

[bamff]

On a number of campaigns thus far I have managed to secure alliances with the Horde, but they seem far more inclined to break alliances than any other faction that I have encountered....

That aside, I'll echo the earlier comments....to beat the Horde (ESPECIALLY when they first appear) takes heaps of halberds, arbalests, and pots of coffee (because the battles will be loooooooooong!).

[Kavhan Isbul]

If I play with an eastern faction, one that usually quickly gets to Khazar, I tend to do what macsen rufus described - do battle with the Mongols, in which I make sure I kill the Khan with the first wave and then take as many Mongols with him as I can, before they finally overrun me. Then it is amatter of weathering the remaining rebels with sieges and bribes. If I play with a more western faction (western in terms of map location), I either never go that far east and simply never face the Horde, or I try to set up a defense in Kiev or some other river province. As has been noted, the Horde will head straight for me, without even making an attempt to bypass me through Lithuania (much tougher defensove battle) and usually a massacre ensues, which makes sure that the Mongols will never get any further. If I play a crusading faction, the Mongols will usually head straight for Edessa and Syria, but they cannot concentrate their whole army that far south, and by then I will have arbalests, so they are not a big problem, and actually end up doing far mroe damage to my enemies in the Middle East than to me. For real fun with the Mongols one should try the Volga Bulgars in XL.

[Innocentius]

Of course, there's the evil way of dealing with the Mongols:saint: Just tech up a few (you shouldn't need more than 5-6) units of Chivalric Foot Knights and place them in the woods. This tactic pretty much requires you to start in Early as there's no way you can tech up CFK to silver armour or better + weapon upgrade if you start in 1205.
As long as those boys don't move out of the forest, they are almost invincible, and especially they MHC will suffer terribly to them. An army of 5-6 high-tech, high-valour CFK is almost capable of knocking the main wave in Khazar back!

But if you intend to play fairly and seriously I totally agree with macsen rufus.

[Deus ret.]

An army of 5-6 high-tech, high-valour CFK is almost capable of knocking the main wave in Khazar back!

erm...sorry to have to ask but what mod again does allow you to produce CFK? Or do you simpy dismount CK?

[bamff]

erm...sorry to have to ask but what mod again does allow you to produce CFK? Or do you simpy dismount CK?

The beauty of CK's is that you can dismount them in any battle situation I believe...I await correction from one of our more learned friends if I am mistaken...

On this line of thought, how effective are fuedal footknights against the horde? Just wondering from the point of Novgorod - because of their ability to dismount Druzhina's to get FFK's...

[Geezer57]

The beauty of CK's is that you can dismount them in any battle situation I believe...I await correction from one of our more learned friends if I am mistaken...

On this line of thought, how effective are fuedal footknights against the horde? Just wondering from the point of Novgorod - because of their ability to dismount Druzhina's to get FFK's...

FFK's are sword-equipped, so get no bonus against cavalry and aren't armor-piercing - that's where the CFK's are far superior, as they have polearms. In woods, FFK's should do fairly well against MHC, but won't dominate like CFK's.
You're right in that Chivalric Knights can dismount into CFK's in any battle, while Feudal Knights only dismount in sieges (unless modded).

[caravel]

It is very wise to dismount your high era Royal Knights (in fact 20 man units of CK) into Chivalric Foot Knights in certain conditions. Especially defensive battles against alot of heavy cavalry. Your Royalty can get some serious kills in this dismounted stated and gain alot of valour. They should be used as flankers though to minimize their own losses. Chivalric Sergeants should be used to pin. In the past I have had up to about valour 11 High Royal Knights, that have gained valour killing cavalry, in their dismounted state. Once you've teched up to Chivalric Knights you have one of the best, if not the best, combined Cavalry/Infantry units in the game.

Feudal Foot Knights are one of the best infantry in the early period. The problem is that you can only dismount Feudal Knights in a siege.

[macsen rufus]

For Deus ret. -- XL mod allows you to train all the foot knights, too.

[Odin]

1. Choke points: (Georgia as an example) This requires preperation which is gamey IMHO, however i have done it, many have. Find choke points to areas and build massive fortifications with good foot soldiers and chew up the horde.

2. Bribe stacks: under a few scenarios you will probably have cash to burn. You can attempt to bribe some of the horde stacks and allow them to kill one another. Gamey? Yeah, but i dont think its out of the realm of historically plausable to bribe an enemy army, although I have no recolection of that happening to the mongols.

3. Bridge battles: Gamey, yes but there are certain provinces that when invaded from the east it will be on a bridge (Kiev comes to mind). Set up a defensive position in these provinces and chew up the horde on the bridge.


i dont think these 3 ways have been discussed thus far, if they have my appologies, but these are 3 ways in which to deal with the mongols (on top of the other suggestions).

[Deus ret.]

For Deus ret. -- XL mod allows you to train all the foot knights, too.
:bow: thanks a lot!

[Agent Miles]

Here's what I do:
https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/AgentMiles/Mongols%20Run/
Culverin rule!

[Adrian II]

Here's what I do:
https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/AgentMiles/Mongols%20Run/
Culverin rule!Good grief... And as a final humiliation, you mop up the remaining Mongols with a unit of peasants...

This is not cricket, you know, and I would never adopt it -- but it is effective, I have to hand you that, Agent Miles.

Tell us, do you direct the Culverins' fire or do you let them 'Engage at will'?

[Agent Miles]

I group them in fours, because of their inaccuracy. I spread the fire around and try to get the general. This was the first time I used the culverin in an attack. The terrain was flat and the Mongols were within range. I thought that I was in for trouble, but I was able to chain rout them after I ran out of ammo.

P.S. I'm a Yank.

Here's another AAR:
https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/AgentMiles/Mongols2/

[hillbilly]

they keep ruining my game they wipe out so many factions and clear out the map but never seem to weakon or die.


I usually have little or no trouble with the mongol horde. If I expand into the east i plan on confronting a calvary force. So I have an ex-prince, about 1000 spears and 200 mounted sergeants. Depending on my mood i may get some pavise crossbows. The mongol horde may look formiddable but they usually come with a low command king. The mongol calvary will charge your spears so you just hold formation. Then flank their general with your mounted sergeants/steppe calvary. Then charge their foot archers with your royal knights and ride down all the routers with you light calvary. This is made much easier with your own ranged units. The mongols have some horse archers so take them out with you foot counterparts. Or just simulate the battle and enjoy a victory.

[Adrian II]

I usually have little or no trouble with the mongol horde. If I expand into the east i plan on confronting a calvary force. So I have an ex-prince, about 1000 spears and 200 mounted sergeants. Depending on my mood i may get some pavise crossbows. The mongol horde may look formiddable but they usually come with a low command king. The mongol calvary will charge your spears so you just hold formation. Then flank their general with your mounted sergeants/steppe calvary. Then charge their foot archers with your royal knights and ride down all the routers with you light calvary. This is made much easier with your own ranged units. The mongols have some horse archers so take them out with you foot counterparts. Or just simulate the battle and enjoy a victory.Hi Hillbilly, good to see a fresh member join the discussion. Welcome to Martok's round table.

Good post. Looking at it, I have a couple of questions.

You described your total army composition including reserves. But what would be the exact composition of your 960 strong force if you face a standard Mongol line-up of 4 MHC, 4 MHA and 8 MW?

Do you play in Expert mode? The Mongols have some pretty sophisticated tactics in Expert. I described one in a thread in this section entitled 'The Mongol pincer'. Their cavalry will not 'just charge your spears'. If you let them, Mongol cavalry will always flank your spears before attacking them.

I agree you should 'take out' MHA with your 'foot counterparts', i.e. pavise Arbalesters. But if you want to do so, you should bring 2 or 3 units of these. Which eats into your spears. How do you strike a balance?

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, hillbilly! ~:wave:

To second Adrian's question: How *do* you deal with the GH when they move to flank your main line? As I've confessed earlier in this thread, I usually simply refuse to engage the Mongols on plain provinces, and withdraw to lands with more favorable terrain (woods, bridges, etc.) instead.

[Deus ret.]

Yep. That (and plenty of arbs and/or halberds/dismounted chivalric knights) usually does the job for me.

Of course, things become much more delicate when playing as the Turks, which don't get a polearm unit until late and (in vanilla) no arbs at all....

[Ripken]

I'm playing as the Hungarians for the first time and I started on High for the first time, and I am a little concerned about what will happen in a few years when the horde appears.

In the past I have always started in early and been big enough and rich enough to fend them off with minimal difficulty, but that obviously isn't the case this time. I'm not too concerned about them coming at me through Asia Minor as the Turks and the Byz should slow them down plenty, but I have far less confidence in the Poles and the Russians to the north.

I should probably be churning out halbardiers and arbs as quickly as I can, but I have limited cash and limited provinces that can produce them.

Any thoughts...?

[Deus ret.]

Well, you could hope for the horde to go somewhere else or to be severely weakened by the Russians and Poles on its way. Neither isn't very likely and some day you'll stand into their way of expansion into central Europe.

So it's best to take things in your own hands. I haven't played vanilla for quite a while but you should have some room for expansion to the East. Utilize this to your advantage, conquer some provinces to stabilize your economy and especially make sure to grab Kiev! IIRC when entering this province from the East there will be a bridge battle, so that's where you're wanting to wait for them. In addition, together with Lithuania it forms a choke-point against incursions from or into the East. Kind of cheesy, but hey! Somehow they have to be stopped.

Now, you will deploy a special task force in Kiev for the sole purpose of fending off the horde. Therefore, it will consist mostly of armoured-up halberdiers -to block the horde's advance over the bridge- and arbalesters -to make their camping missile units pay; in the unlikely event that you have already teched up to chivalric knights make sure to bring some as well and dismount them if possible. They're way better than halberdiers, especially with regard to their sky-high morale. You don't need a whole load of units, just carefully selected ones, so your economy won't be strangled.

With this force you will likely stop the onslaught and even if not it'll cost them dearly, making it thrice a Pyrrhic victory.

In the event that they just surpass or otherwise outmaneuvre you on the stratmap, choose hilly, wooded (!) terrain as fighting ground and deploy your troops (now mostly without arbs) under the trees. It will be a carnage.

Good luck!

[Ripken]

Well, the Russians had Kiev and I was allied with them so I let them face the horde first, and they were predicably crushed. However, I had massed all available troops just across the border, and the Mongols thought about it for a bit, decided they didn't fancy the odds, and took their business elsewhere, which was good of them!

[Spajus]

I'll admit to gamesmanship here, in that I knew they were coming...

At the same time, it would have been hard to miss them, if I'd been allowed off the map.

A bit of planning - Chivalric & Feudal Sergeants, arbalasters and archers.

Find a province with some woods (not hard in the East)

Wherever they initially turn up, don't withdraw. If you fight them on their arrival, they only have one heir. Kill him = rebels.

Of course, 22 stacks of rebels isn't much good to you either, so you may want to stick around and mop up.

This was on vanilla, vh/vh.


http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~spadge/Horde%20copy.jpg
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~spadge/bodies.jpg
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~spadge/kills.jpg

Battle was a draw, lasted 3 hours, ran out of time. I think I was out of re-inforcements at the time.

2 KEY things to do.

1 - don't pursue when he routs. It's easier to re-rout his demoralised troops when they come back, and chasing them off the edge will give him a fresh army, rather than a half-beaten one

2 - forced-withdraw your own men when they go above 65% casualties. Keeps your own force strong and fresh.

Oh, and hide in the trees!!!

[Caerfanan]

AAAAAAAAWWWW, MAN!!!!

:laugh4:

Excuse my french, but what a bloody mess you made there!!!

I'm pretty sure that charging was impossible for your enemies, in the end with all those dead horses and all.

Oh my...

Good idea to play in the wood: horses do suffer there, and their archers loos a great part of their interest... And brilliant to wait for their half beaten units: good for the watch advance!

This raises a question, cause I never timed out a battle: what happens if a 22 stacks of angry horse-warriors from the east times out trying to kill you, but did use only 20% of its troops? Do they loose all their troops? Or will you have them withdraw somewhere if possible and die if not possible? Or will they stay?

(I'm still laughing from the picture with the piles of dead horses.... Man, seriously... :laugh4: )

[caravel]

Welcome, Spajus, to the .org. :bow:

Your battle brings back memories of many of my past engagements with the Horde (usually playing as the Turks). The fields similarly black with corpses. You are correct with regard to not chasing the enemy. In such situation I always place my units on hold position to prevent them pursuing routers and getting too far away. I used to love those defensive battles, especially in Georgia.

I'm pretty sure that charging was impossible for your enemies, in the end with all those dead horses and all.
Battlefield corpse sprites are cosmetic only and don't affect unit movement or anything else.

[Spajus]

Thanks for the welcome.

It's an old picture to be honest, I'm onto MTW2 now, but scouring the forums reminded me of it, and I thought I'd post it up.

As for what happened to the stacks, I'm sure they turned rebel, because I remember having to bribe the hell out of them (rather than suffer another 3 hour battle - I vaguely remember finishing this one at 1:00 on a work night! urgh)

[Caerfanan]

Battlefield corpse sprites are cosmetic only and don't affect unit movement or anything else.

Ooops I wasn't explicit enough, sorry, I knew it was cosmetic, but when I saw the pictures I was laughing soooo much, it was like "oh my, where's the grass???"! :laugh4:

I was imagining the mongols not seing their enemies, not even the forests because of all the piles of corpses, having to turn around the piles of their dead comrades and all!

It is said that one should laugh some 15 minutes a day, well I had a good part of it this morning!

[Caerfanan]

Thanks for the welcome.

It's an old picture to be honest, I'm onto MTW2 now, but scouring the forums reminded me of it, and I thought I'd post it up.

As for what happened to the stacks, I'm sure they turned rebel, because I remember having to bribe the hell out of them (rather than suffer another 3 hour battle - I vaguely remember finishing this one at 1:00 on a work night! urgh)
Well no problem, man, you did put me in a very good mood!

Sooo if there is a "draw" in a battle, the armies stay were they are an it starts again? I'm a wee bit surprised, because when you're attacking and the time runs out, you withdraw to where you came from, right?

Well you were glad to have a lot of money I guess!

[caravel]

Sooo if there is a "draw" in a battle, the armies stay were they are an it starts again? I'm a wee bit surprised, because when you're attacking and the time runs out, you withdraw to where you came from, right?
If the battle time limit expires victory always goes to the defender. So for example, holding off the horde as long as you can counts as a victory. It is much more difficult with the limit disabled, as in that case you have to defeat them. Such battles can be very long drawn out and very tiring though. :skull:

[Caerfanan]

If the battle time limit expires victory always goes to the defender. So for example, holding off the horde as long as you can counts as a victory. It is much more difficult with the limit disabled, as in that case you have to defeat them. Such battles can be very long drawn out and very tiring though. :skull:
This meaning that if the horde appears in one province only (I'm not sure about it), it is uterly defeated at the first battle, then?

I kinda imagine the pain of a neverending battle.... My longest one lasted some 3 hours. My fingers were hurting (playing on a laptop, trackpoint as a mouse)...

But so much FUN!!!! :2thumbsup:

[caravel]

This meaning that if the horde appears in one province only (I'm not sure about it), it is uterly defeated at the first battle, then?

I kinda imagine the pain of a neverending battle.... My longest one lasted some 3 hours. My fingers were hurting (playing on a laptop, trackpoint as a mouse)...

But so much FUN!!!! :2thumbsup:
Yes, but they rarely appear in just one province, and if they do you will have a mammoth task holding off twenty odd thousand of the devils in Khazar until the time limit expires. They usually appear in Khazar as standard, in fact I've never seen a campaign where they didn't appear in Khazar, maybe someone else has? The other provinces that they can make an additional appearance in are Volga Bulgaria, Georgia or Armenia. As far as I know that's the limit. I've also only ever seen them appear in a maximum of two provinces at once. To add to the problem the rebel provinces bordering Khazar (Pereyaslavl etc) may simply join them when they appear, as part of the "number of rebel provinces joining the revolt" factor.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I have tried to hold off the Horde in Khazar until time expires and I failed. The time limit was 3 hours I believe, and they just kept coming, and coming, and coming, while my units just got exhausted, and I ran out of ammunition for my missile troops. It is however worth it, because you get to kill a large amount of Mongols this way, and most probably the Khan among them, which leaves 5,000 to 10,000 cheap Mongol Heavies, MHAs and Mongol Warriors (plus a bombard or two).

[Deus ret.]

To my shame I have to admit that the only time I faced the Horde in Khazar proper the computer did the dirty work for me -- it was on vanilla, I played as the Byz, I was rich beyond belief and so just put around ...25.000? 30.000? or so upgraded troops with my best 8-star-general in the province.

And lo, I actually 'won' .... :shame: granted, it's not really a 'true' way of dealing with the Mongols! Well, the campaign had begun to bore me anyway, and the Horde was its last chapter.

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, Spajus. ~:wave: That really is quite the pile of dead Mongolian cavalry, by the way! ~:eek:


To my shame I have to admit that the only time I faced the Horde in Khazar proper the computer did the dirty work for me -- it was on vanilla, I played as the Byz, I was rich beyond belief and so just put around ...25.000? 30.000? or so upgraded troops with my best 8-star-general in the province.

And lo, I actually 'won' .... :shame: granted, it's not really a 'true' way of dealing with the Mongols! Well, the campaign had begun to bore me anyway, and the Horde was its last chapter.
Don't feel bad. I've auto-calced almost all of my battles versus the Mongols, simply because of the length of time it takes to fight them manually. The first time I ever fought them myself, it took me something like 20 total hours to play out. (I was still a MTW noob at the time, so I was constantly pausing to "re-assess the situation", plus I ended up having to pause around 4 a.m. to get some shut-eye -- I resumed the battle the next morning after I woke up and ate breakfast.) ~:rolleyes:

[Brandy Blue]

What I did with the Mongols was prepare by invading rebel provinces in the general area that did not have forts. Each time I invaded I made sure my force was strong enough to scare the rebels into running away without a fight. In that way I could herd them from province to province until there was a very nice stack of rebels in Kazar. Then I left them there for the Mongols to find. I guess I could have deliberately provoked rebellions in one or two provinces to give me even more rebels to shepherd into Kazar, but I didn't think of that at the time. It worked okay, even though there were still plenty of Mongols left to fight after they finished off the rebels. I did get lucky, though, and lots of the hoarde headed south to fight Turks. I was playing Russians, high period, average setting. I'm not sure how well it would work for other factions or periods, because you have to attack the rebels while they have not forts, or they will hide in the forts instead of running to the next province.

[OldSchool]

Ha! That picture reminded me of the first time I played MTW. I played as the Danes and had no clue about the Horde showing up. I learned how to play by taking on the Russian Boyars and taking over the steppe lands. It took me a long time, but eventually my favorite general and the sad remains of his beat-up army finally took Khazar as the grand prize. As a reward, I crowned him King of Khazar in the year 1230 and moved him into the fort for a little R&R ...:laugh4:

[Spajus]

I have tried to hold off the Horde in Khazar until time expires and I failed. The time limit was 3 hours I believe, and they just kept coming, and coming, and coming, while my units just got exhausted, and I ran out of ammunition for my missile troops...

The key to winning for me was:

Withdraw missile troops the instant they run out of ammo
Withdraw infanty units when they fall below 40% of full strength (ie 40 men left in a unit of 100)
DON'T chase the Mongols around the board. Their HA loves it, even if they start off routing, they soon rally, pepper you with missiles, and chase you back.

INSTEAD, each time you fight off a wave, reform, and take a well earned rest.

Learn to ignore HA, especially in 2's and 3's. Only react when there is a sizeable force, otherwise, just relax.

[Caerfanan]

Yes, but they rarely appear in just one province, and if they do you will have a mammoth task holding off twenty odd thousand of the devils in Khazar until the time limit expires. They usually appear in Khazar as standard, in fact I've never seen a campaign where they didn't appear in Khazar, maybe someone else has? The other provinces that they can make an additional appearance in are Volga Bulgaria, Georgia or Armenia. As far as I know that's the limit. I've also only ever seen them appear in a maximum of two provinces at once. To add to the problem the rebel provinces bordering Khazar (Pereyaslavl etc) may simply join them when they appear, as part of the "number of rebel provinces joining the revolt" factor.
Augh... Bad golden horde!!! :whip:

[Caerfanan]

What I did with the Mongols was prepare by invading rebel provinces in the general area that did not have forts. Each time I invaded I made sure my force was strong enough to scare the rebels into running away without a fight. In that way I could herd them from province to province until there was a very nice stack of rebels in Kazar. Then I left them there for the Mongols to find. I guess I could have deliberately provoked rebellions in one or two provinces to give me even more rebels to shepherd into Kazar, but I didn't think of that at the time. It worked okay, even though there were still plenty of Mongols left to fight after they finished off the rebels. I did get lucky, though, and lots of the hoarde headed south to fight Turks. I was playing Russians, high period, average setting. I'm not sure how well it would work for other factions or periods, because you have to attack the rebels while they have not forts, or they will hide in the forts instead of running to the next province.
Now that's a clever move! Rebel breeder are you? :laugh4:

Did the rebel took the mongols though?

[Caerfanan]

Withdraw missile troops the instant they run out of ammo
Yes, but this only if you have good reinforcements at hand, otherwise they can still be used to take a prisonner or two, what do you think?


Withdraw infanty units when they fall below 40% of full strength (ie 40 men left in a unit of 100)
Well, I wouldn't do that, but haven't played that much really heavy big bad battles... Do you do this because of moral issues?


DON'T chase the Mongols around the board. Their HA loves it, even if they start off routing, they soon rally, pepper you with missiles, and chase you back.

INSTEAD, each time you fight off a wave, reform, and take a well earned rest.
This is sooooo right! The difference between life and death. I remember a poor unit of exhausted berserkers who got charged in the back by enemies' reinforcements: I had let them loose on a routing infantry unit... I won't do it again...


Learn to ignore HA, especially in 2's and 3's. Only react when there is a sizeable force, otherwise, just relax.
In this specific cases, I think that trees are a key point as well? It really helps against arrows and cavalry.

[caravel]

The key to winning for me was:

Withdraw missile troops the instant they run out of ammo
Withdraw infanty units when they fall below 40% of full strength (ie 40 men left in a unit of 100)
DON'T chase the Mongols around the board. Their HA loves it, even if they start off routing, they soon rally, pepper you with missiles, and chase you back.

INSTEAD, each time you fight off a wave, reform, and take a well earned rest.

Learn to ignore HA, especially in 2's and 3's. Only react when there is a sizeable force, otherwise, just relax.
IMHO, this is 100% on the button, well I may be biased because those are exactly my tactics. :laugh4:

When missile troops run out of ammo and you've got reinforcements with full quivers/quarrels waiting to come on, what do you do? If you've no reinforcements then those missile units may have to double for infantry... If for example you have a unit of high valour Nizari that have run out of ammo you'd be mad to withdraw it, and better off hiding it in the woods. The same goes for Futuwwa. You can use those as flankers if you're careful and score some kills before you finally withdraw them. All in all you're likely to see your archers (or any unit armed with the shortbow, or longbow) running out of ammo much sooner than the crossbows or arbalests. So you'll be pulling these off more frequently. Once they've scored some kills, increased their valour and run out of arrows, you want them safely away, not routing away with only a handful of men left in the unit, with the Mongol HAs hot on their heels.

With other infantry units, and cavalry units also. You should try to pull the battered and exhausted ones off and bring on fresh troops. Fighting them to the death won't gain you anything. Also if one of those units routs it could chain rout some of your other units, especially if they're exhausted. This is why it's important to take, e.g. a unit of FMAA that start out with 120 men and is now down to 40 and exhausted, off the field. This preserves their valour gained. Exhausted cavalry are good for nothing. It is also important to keep an eye on your Spear units. Though they may be doing well at forming a defence screen (dying slowly) and stopping the Horde from simply charging straight through your defences, they are usually poor morale and once totally exhausted and down to about 50% they may begin to waver. It is important to structure your reinforcements so that a new lineup comes on to replace them at a certain point (not too early).

Ignoring and not chasing the HAs is vital. Gain the higher ground and hit them unit for unit with a concentrated barrage of missiles. The aim is to quickly knock the unit down to less than 50% strength to reduce it's potency, after this ignore it and concentrate on the MHC. Keep your best armoured spearmen up front to draw their fire. If you have pavise crossbows they can go up front also. Don't waste arrows on the Mongol Warriors, they should be hit from the rear and flank by fast medium cavalry (the only cavalry you will need, and only for this purpose and for the purpose of pursuing MHC routers a short distance) and reduced to about 20% of their unit size. Killing them off quickly means more Horde reinforcements of the more dangerous kind coming along sooner. Similarly any siege equipment that is out of range, leave alone. If it can't hit you (unless you're pursuing routers which you shouldn't be) it can't hurt you. Destroying it means seeing a new unit of MHC or MHA appearing on the horizon...

All of your units should be on "hold position" to prevent them pursuing routers of their own accord. This is important with units such as Ghazi Infantry or other AP flankers such as woodsmen. You may lose sight of them, and they go running off after the enemy, out of the wood they were hiding in and into an exposed position - in which case it's goodbye to them. The "hold position" stops this from occurring.

[Spajus]

I almost thought I wasn't going to have to say much more than "yup".

A few points though.

Yes, as Cambyses II points out, you withdraw for morale issues, to prevent Chain-Routing. You need to manage this carefully, as your objective is to defend for 3 hours. If you feel you need to withdraw your whole front line after the first 15 minutes, then accept you're probably not going to win, and consider changing your tactics.

Secondly, your battle is going to take place in waves. After the initial contact, you should send the entire enemy army Routing.
Roughly half of this army will rally, and come back with half-reinforcements for another battle.

This pattern will continue for the next 3 hours, during which you can expect constant HA harrasment.

Cambyses is spot on with most of his tactics, but I would disagree one one point, the calvalry. I think I took 4 units of cav for the entire battle. They are best used to chase down routers and break the infanty. However, I found that spearmen in woods suffer only very minimal losses from arrow fire.

I always keep my arb's and archers behind the spear-wall. Yes, it reduces their effectiveness, but it also screens them from counter-fire and the inevitable charge (which you want to take solidly on your spears).

And I tended to keep some Men-At-Arms behind the spear-line to counter-charge wherever the heavy infantry attack.

Different ways to skin a cat, though, eh?

[caravel]

Yes, as Cambyses II points out, you withdraw for morale issues, to prevent Chain-Routing. You need to manage this carefully, as your objective is to defend for 3 hours. If you feel you need to withdraw your whole front line after the first 15 minutes, then accept you're probably not going to win, and consider changing your tactics.
Very true. Most of my front line usually lasts for more than half of the battle, though I don't use the time limit so they need to last as long as it takes...

Cambyses is spot on with most of his tactics, but I would disagree one one point, the calvalry. I think I took 4 units of cav for the entire battle. They are best used to chase down routers and break the infanty. However, I found that spearmen in woods suffer only very minimal losses from arrow fire.
I take something between about 6 and 10 units of cavalry as part of a maximum force of between four and five thousand, usually AHC, Pronoai Allagion or Feudal Knights, depending on which faction I'm playing of course. The bulk of my force will be infantry and missiles. Sometimes I take a few catapults and deploy in the starting line up, though not often. The vast majority of the force should be missiles, spears and flanking units.

I always keep my arb's and archers behind the spear-wall. Yes, it reduces their effectiveness, but it also screens them from counter-fire and the inevitable charge (which you want to take solidly on your spears).
Archers and arbalests I always keep behind the spear wall, Pavise Crossbowmen I place up front to give them a clear shot (more important on flat terrain) and to act as bait. Their defense vs missiles it quite good as is their armour, especially if you upgrade them. I position them very close in front of the spears. If the enemy cavalry charges them, they will skirmish away and those cavalry will blunder straight into the spear wall. Delivering a full salvo from all of your missiles at the nearest HA unit can rout them instantly. Your crossbows are not as effective at this if they're behind the spear wall. The best way to achieve this is not to target the unit, but enable 'fire at will' when the target is in range of all of the missile units that you want to fire.

And I tended to keep some Men-At-Arms behind the spear-line to counter-charge wherever the heavy infantry attack.
I use very little sword armed infantry when fighting the mongols. Their main weakness is their lack of spears or infantry (except the warriors). This makes the best units for dealing with them IMHO:

1) Many missile units to deal with the HAs and to whittle down the MHC units prior to them engaging in melee with your forces.

2) A lot of good well armoured spear units to hold the line, protect your other units and maintain a vital defensive front/base, while also doing a good job of pinning down and, slowly, killing off the MHC.

3) And last but by no means least some polearmed units such as Halberdiers, Chivalric Foot Knights, Billmen or JHI.

4) Flanking AP infantry for hiding in woods and attacking the flanks of the MHC pinned by the spears

5) Some light/medium cavalry for dealing with the warriors/MHC routers

:bow:

[gaijinalways]

Looked like a tough battle. My battles with the Mongols often involve a lot of hitting at range and then locking up with an eventual rout of their cav units. I often decimate their spear units and regular missile units that they have. I haven't seen as much blood as you managed to spill though.

[gunslinger]

Defending against the Mongols actually becomes relatively easy once you get used to it, as long as you have plenty of ranged units in reserve. I still haven't come up with a good way to kill horse archers without the help of a good forrest once my ammo runs out.

A bit more of a challenge is attacking the Mongols. Suddenly, their HAs and Mongol Warriors have the advantage over your archers and arbelests due to elevation. Also, that MHC is definitely good enough to keep you from just charging up the hill to scatter the HAs and kill the Mongol Warriors. Chivilric Knights as well as Chivilric Sergeants will crumble if MHC hits them with a good downhill charge.

Last night I took the castle in Georgia from the Horde, although it cost me dearly. After I had utterly demolished the castle with artillery, I led the charge with my general (my only cav unit) to clear off some of the Mongol Warriors to make way for my halbardiers and Chiv Seargeants to take care of the HAs and 3 units of MHC. Well, after my general was killed by arrow fire, everyone else wanted to route. I rallied them, but the aforementioned units simply could not damage the Mongol Warriors in hand to hand combat. I saw a unit of 30 Chiv Seargeants with golden swords, silver shields, and at least three valor get routed by a unit of TWO Mongol Warriors. I eventually won, but only because I had an obscene number of reinforcements with which to exhaust the enemy.

[Kavhan Isbul]

When I lost my battle against the Mongols in Khazar, I had not even the slightest hill to use to my advantage - the map was absolutely flat, half woods. After routing the initial few waves, I hid spearmen in the woods, but the problem wih this is that the Mongol Warriors are swordsmen and as such deal easily with any spear unit, especially if the latter is in the woods. In the meantime, my pavise crossbowmen were extremely ineffective due to the lack of elevation, and it was a tough battle. I should probably mention that it was in medMod and I played as the Cumans, so I did not have the usual choice of halbardiers and arbalesters. I lost when all the cavalry of the Mongols was dead or routed, but they brought several waves of infantry in units of 75 and 120 men respectively (Muslim factions and the Horde get this advantage in MedMod).

[Brandy Blue]

No, I'm not really a rebel breeder, Caerfanan. That's probably why I forgot to breed extra rebels to herd into Kazar. Truth is I like to play a bit dirty, and getting the the rebel riff raff to cancel out the Mongols for me has a certain appeal. I've only tried this strategy once, so I can't really say if it is a good one or not. Maybe if I had bred up enough rebels, they would have seriously dented the Mongols. As it was, they only made the fight a bit easier.

[Brandy Blue]

I just realized that my strategy of letting the rebels fights the Mongols only applies to vanilla MTW. The Mongol invasion is always the same size. I think I read somewhere that in Viking Invasion, the Mongols get more troops if they appear in territories with large armies, so pushing a lot of rebel trash into Kazar will just result in more of those fine quality Mongol warriors! :help: So my dirty little trick of herding rebels into Kazar if for my fellow Vanilla players only. I wondered why I had never read about anyone else using this trick! I hope I didn't get anyone out there into trouble. :oops: Sorry!:shame:

[caravel]

If you really want an easy time of it when fighting the mongols, adopt the cheesey tactic of abandoning Khazar the year before and removing any buildings there. If you leave the master Horse breeder in Khazar and an armourer, the mongol troops will arrived with +1 valour and upgraded armour. Filling the province with rebels is pointless also, as the mongols will win anway and their units will gain valour from it. It is often best to abandon Khazar and head back to Georgia which is much more defensible.

If on the other hand you're feeling suicidal and want to make the Mongols more challenging, you can deliverately build up Khazar and not prepare for their coming. When they arrive you can then pull your troops back to the castle and opt for a siege. Allowing the Mongols to spread out thinly weakens them.

If you're even more insane, like me, you can mod the game and give the Mongol units a valour bonus in Khazar as well.

[Deus ret.]

If on the other hand you're feeling suicidal and want to make the Mongols more challenging, you can deliverately build up Khazar and not prepare for their coming. When they arrive you can then pull your troops back to the castle and opt for a siege. Allowing the Mongols to spread out thinly weakens them.

If you're even more insane, like me, you can mod the game and give the Mongol units a valour bonus in Khazar as well.

Both your points are contained in the MedMod. Just yesterday I came to experience the full might of the Horde, bolstered comfortably by all those nice buildings in the province of Khazar. In MedMod, it's the Cumans' 'home' province, and by the time the horde arrived, they (like in Kavhan Isbul's case earlier) had spent ample money in the province and had already upgraded to a fortress...

...and had built a master bowyer (+2 morale). and a master horse breeder (+1 discipline). and a master spearmaker (+1 weapon). the Pagan temple gave them all +2 morale. oh, and did I mention the GOLDEN armour they all wear?? of course, the +1v bonus for MHC in Khazar isn't counted in yet :dizzy2: ok, I thought: lack of halberdiers or no, I'll hack them to pieces anyway with the nice troops the HRE gets in High (even more since they also have a couple of iron provinces ~D) and some dismounted imperial (=chivalric) knights should make up for the lack of polearms.

...well, that's what I thought. they went straight for me and by the time they reached Prussia their strength hadn't diminished perceptably. I set my goal to killing the Khan since I had already assassinated their only heir, but it was unbelievable....those darn Mongols neither rout nor die!! I barely managed to hold off the first wave, but the Khan made it off the battlefield, and the second wave made mincemeat of my battered and exhausted troops. At least my own general got away, but now I have 6 full stacks of Mongols on my Eastern border :help: and more keep coming! At least now the campaign has regained some momentum, the English also attacked again just the last turn and are besieging me in Normandy and Île de France :charge: maybe I should disregard any code of honour and use my 1,200k florins to bribe off some of those buggers?

[Bregil the Bowman]

DON'T chase the Mongols around the board. Their HA loves it, even if they start off routing, they soon rally, pepper you with missiles, and chase you back.



I'm cuurently enjoying reasonable success against the Horde, playing the Almohads. My secret weapon - camels!

Because the Horde has chosen to ally with everyone else and focus on me, he is chanelled through Georgia to attack Syria, a desert province with plenty of hills.

Each time the Horde comes I line up 3 Nubian spears, 3 pavise arbalesters, and 3 desert archers on the slopes, with a reserve of Muwahid spears and camels, camels and more camels.

As the Horde comes up the slope it takes a good hit from my arrows, but still rocks my spear wall when the MHC hits home. But then I bring my camels round the flanks in all all out attempt to break or capture his general. Once that's done I chase his sorry behind off the field.

Yes, the Mongols rally, but if you keep hitting them with camels they soon change their minds. In a desert, the horsemen tire faster than the camel riders.

Once they are in disarray I pull back and replace any bow units that are out of arrows and camel units which have taken a mauling. There is usually a second and third wave but if the general is gone they are not too hard to break, using similar tactics.

Arbalesters are useful because they don't run out of ammo as fast as desert archers, but initially the arrow storm of the DAs can be useful and they're cheap and plentiful.

Recently I've acquired some merc units including an organ gun and Mamluk handgunners. If the enemy general is a prince he usually breaks before the first wave hits.

It's a war of attrition rather than a bid for outright victory, but I have more than adequate resources to replace the camels and spears I am losing, whereas the horde struggles to make up its losses.

I'll let you know how it ends - the Byz lost Trebizond which means I am now open to the Horde in two flanks. But a sizeable chunk of their best troops are bleaching their bones in the Syrian desert thanks to my lovely camels!

[Lord Cazaric]

I've detailed my way to absolutely decimate them in the 'Golden Horde!' thread.

[Maximillian von Hapsburg]

Well comrades,


I never found the horde easy to vanquish, but I've got some tips and ideas for ya that worked for

[Maximillian von Hapsburg]

me.

(Sorry, I was typing on my mum's computer which is really stuffed up lol.)

Anyway, here are some ideas for owning the Golden Horde,


- If you play as Polish, build up a fortress and good troop buildings (and troops) in one choke-point province, preferably Volhynia, or Moldovia if you have it, or both.

- If you're playing as HRE, make sure you have at least 2 crusades built to be launched at a moment's notice, and plenty of eastern facilities to make knights, mounted seargeants, halberdiers, archers, culverins and arquebusiers.

- If you're playing as Hungary, have only one big choke point if possible.

- If you're playing as Egyptian/Turkish/Byzantine/Almohad, make sure you place a huge amount of troops in Khazar as soon as the high period begins, plus a citadel or fortress w/ all active defensive upgrades, e.g Barbican, Demi-Culverin Towers.

- Make sure you know how to conduct bridge battles well.


Hope these help :yes:


Yours,



Max

[Spajus]

Point is, I defeated the entire golden horde (22 stacks) with an army of 4000 (3 stacks).

2 points:

1 - it's not unrealistic for me to have had an army of 3 stacks on my borders. (although I'm not pretending I didn't know the horde were coming)
2 - they were defeated in just one battle, on vh/vh (albeit from a time-limit victory) (see pics in page 1 of thread)

This for me is infinitely more satisfactory than fighting a defensive or running battle with them and letting them spread out accross the whole map.

:)

[Caerfanan]

Point is, I defeated the entire golden horde (22 stacks) with an army of 4000 (3 stacks).

2 points:

1 - it's not unrealistic for me to have had an army of 3 stacks on my borders. (although I'm not pretending I didn't know the horde were coming)
2 - they were defeated in just one battle, on vh/vh (albeit from a time-limit victory) (see pics in page 1 of thread)

This for me is infinitely more satisfactory than fighting a defensive or running battle with them and letting them spread out accross the whole map.

:)
And this fertilize the ground there a lot!!! Seriously, you should have earned a farming revenue bonus for a couple of years with all those dead horses! :laugh4:

[Spajus]

So many jokes on the same topic Caerfanan.

I fear you're flogging a dead horse...

/me gets his coat.

[caravel]

Less of the horseplay please gentlemen, this thread was off to a gallop and you have slowed it down to a canter...

(pass me my coat as well)

[The Unknown Guy]

I think that letting the mongols ride across Western Europe is very in-character for a Byzantine player

[Caerfanan]

So many jokes on the same topic Caerfanan.

I fear you're flogging a dead horse...

/me gets his coat.

OK, then, sorry for the inconvenience. Stay there. I'm the one taking his coat.

Cheers.

[Kavhan Isbul]

- If you're playing as HRE, make sure you have at least 2 crusades built to be launched at a moment's notice, and plenty of eastern facilities to make knights, mounted seargeants, halberdiers, archers, culverins and arquebusiers.

- If you're playing as Egyptian/Turkish/Byzantine/Almohad, make sure you place a huge amount of troops in Khazar as soon as the high period begins, plus a citadel or fortress w/ all active defensive upgrades, e.g Barbican, Demi-Culverin Towers.

I do not think it is possible to have two crusades launched at the same time, fortunately.
Also, I have found out any fortification upgrade from catapult towers on to be a mixed blessing, as the catapult/culverin towers tend to actually do more damage to your own walls instead of to the enemy. A plain castle in most cases is enough to inflict a lot of damage on the besieging Mongols, especially if you have a good spear or polearm unit or two inside. Dismounted chivalric knights are probably the best option - smaller unit sizes means longer siege, causing the Mongols to assault and 40 of them can do perhaps more damage than twice as many halberdiers.

[caravel]

I do not think it is possible to have two crusades launched at the same time, fortunately.
Also, I have found out any fortification upgrade from catapult towers on to be a mixed blessing, as the catapult/culverin towers tend to actually do more damage to your own walls instead of to the enemy. A plain castle in most cases is enough to inflict a lot of damage on the besieging Mongols, especially if you have a good spear or polearm unit or two inside. Dismounted chivalric knights are probably the best option - smaller unit sizes means longer siege, causing the Mongols to assault and 40 of them can do perhaps more damage than twice as many halberdiers.
:yes:

[seireikhaan]

Most of the time, the Pope will not let you launch multiple crusades, though I have been able to accomplish this twice. However, it was GA and I was the Spanish crusading for the holy land on both occasions, so I doubt the Pope will allow the HRE, who historically was often a pain in the butt for the Pope, to have simultaneous crusades for Khazar and Georgia, decidedly "unholy" provinces.

[Deus ret.]

Also, I have found out any fortification upgrade from catapult towers on to be a mixed blessing, as the catapult/culverin towers tend to actually do more damage to your own walls instead of to the enemy. A plain castle in most cases is enough to inflict a lot of damage on the besieging Mongols, especially if you have a good spear or polearm unit or two inside.

oh, that part is new to me. I actually never played out an assault against anything bigger than a castle and also never got assaulted while holding anything bigger than a that, so I don't know about that at all.

that is to say, an unupgraded castle (or +ring wall) is entirely sufficient for purely defensive purposes? no citadel +demi-culverins and even less a fortress +siege cannons? good to know but a bit late now that I'm already in 1270 (started in early).

btw does anyone know ... when upgrading to the next fortification level, e.g. to a castle instead of the keep, does the upgraded version automatically contain the fortifications of the lower type? i.e. does a castle automatically have a curtain wall (ok seems like it has) and ballista towers? if yes it'd mean I'm pretty much screwed fortification-wise without demolishing anything since almost all my provinces already have a citadel....

[Kavhan Isbul]

You need the citadel for the purpose of producing better troops. However, if you just want to defend a province and you do not need any advanced buildings there, a castle for me does the same job as a citadel.