The Mongol 'pincer', as promised

[Adrian II]

The Golden Horde have a scripted pincer movement which they will execute nearly every time you face them in a plain. And I mean a flat, empty plain with no hills or bridges made for pavised artillery and no thick woods for Smartypants to hide his uber-spearmen in.

The Horde will slowly approach your line as shown in diagram 1: they will march up in two tiers, with one of their flanks hanging back until the front units are engaged. In the diagram, it is their left flank that hangs back. This flank is MHC heavy, the main body is mainly made up of missile troops (MHA and Mongol Warriors).


diagram 1

https://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8315/mongolpincerdiagram1gr3.png (https://imageshack.us)

If you don’t counter their approach, they will engage your front (usually missile) units in such a fashion that you can not turn them or wheel them round. The MHA will gallop right up to your pavised units, drawing and returning fire wit no regard for their casualties. Try wheeling your pavised units about with the MHA breathing down their necks and benefiting from a +5 attack bonus for shooting your unit in the rear. The function of this close artillery barrage is to pin your missile units and the rest of your battle line in place whilst the pincer is set in motion. In diagram 2 we see the pincer being executed.


diagram 2

https://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4452/mongolpincerdiagram2nl8.png (https://imageshack.us)

If you let it come this far, you will be constantly rearranging your battle line and realigning or refacing your spears and ranged units. You need one unit of spears to hold every MHC unit on your right flank, otherwise one of the MHC units may charge right through your center and you are done for. But whilst you are repositioning those spears, your pavised missile troops will not have a clear line of sight. Quite a quandary. And it will get worse.


diagram 3

https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2241/mongolpincerdiagram3bc8.png (https://imageshack.us)

The trouble is that, as we see in diagram 3, the Mongol pincer will keep moving, forcing you to reposition time and again as they move round your flank to your rear. Soon you will be all hunkered down, folded up and feeling like the incredible shrinking army.

After multiple failures I have come up with a decent counter-tactic as shown in diagram 4.


diagram 4

https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6730/mongolpincerdiagram4zz7.png (https://imageshack.us)

The trick is in wheeling your army about (in this case: clock-wise) as long as it is not yet engaged, and to counter-attack the main body of their army right away so as to draw their ‘hanging flank’ out of position and thereby prevent the pincer.

If you let the spears on your left flank attack the MHA and MW, who are basically helpless against them, the MHC of the ‘hanging flank’ will sooner or later come to their rescue. Now it is your turn to let your right flank hang back. Make room for the MHC, invite them over to your left flank where the action is. If you are lucky they will gallop right through the middle of the battlefield, leaving their flanks exposed. This is when you should strike and fold up their battle line for a change, as shown in diagram 5.


diagram 5

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2231/mongolpincerdiagram5sd3.png (https://imageshack.us)

Forget about your missile units for a moment. Charge your spears and cavalry at the MHC wherever you can, leave the MHC to them and reposition your missile units so as to hit the MW and MHA best.

Soon, Bob should be your uncle.

[Arciel]

Excellent!!

[caravel]

:bow:

[macsen rufus]

Yay! Worth waiting for, Adrian :bow: Dank u wel!

[Vladimir]

~:eek: Shame on you! Have you no love for cheese?

But no seriously, that's...interesting. Not quite sure why you would find yourself in that situation to begin with but it looks good. And I'm assuming that the player would have an all infantry army.

[Adrian II]

Not quite sure why you would find yourself in that situation to begin with but it looks good. And I'm assuming that the player would have an all infantry army.It occurs mainly in the Eastern European steppe, but I have seen the Mongol pincer in the rolling hills of Germany just as well. Believe me, you know when you've been pincered. And your army's composition may influence the execution, but not the basic idea of opening up your center in order to lure the MHC into the trap.

[Martok]

Very nice, Adrian II. Many thanks for your fine effort. ~:cheers:

For as much as I play the Byz and (especially) Eggies, your guide should prove useful. I confess that I usually refuse to fight the GH on open plains; and if necessary, will simply pull back to a province with more favorable terrain. It'll be interesting to see if I'll be able to counter them now!

[bamff]

Very informative, Adrian II. :bow: Thanks for sharing....I will confess that it is sometime since I have faced the Horde, having adopted the strategy of targeting the West and letting them and anyone else in the East sort themselves out....but now I am tempted to ride East again....

[Deus ret.]

great advice in there, AdrianII! some nice things to remember. I just have a question:

If you let the spears on your left flank attack the MHA and MW, who are basically helpless against them, the MHC of the ‘hanging flank’ will sooner or later come to their rescue.
I never tried your tactic in the way you describe it here, but...whenever I tried engaging their missile units (esp. MW) with my ground troops they were clever enough to skirmish and draw me out of formation, resulting in more shots in the back while reforming. except in the case they had no ammo left: then they would enter melee but basically hack my spears to pieces since MW sport quite a nice attack rating after all. cavalry seemed to work best against those buggers but as you say is needed to counter the MHC.

were your experiences different or how did you catch & defeat the MW with spears alone?

[Adrian II]

great advice in there, AdrianII! some nice things to remember. I just have a question:

I never tried your tactic in the way you describe it here, but...whenever I tried engaging their missile units (esp. MW) with my ground troops they were clever enough to skirmish and draw me out of formation, resulting in more shots in the back while reforming. except in the case they had no ammo left: then they would enter melee but basically hack my spears to pieces since MW sport quite a nice attack rating after all. cavalry seemed to work best against those buggers but as you say is needed to counter the MHC.

were your experiences different or how did you catch & defeat the MW with spears alone?Thanks for your comments, guys! :bow:

And Deus ret., thanks for taking the time to react. I'll do my best to answer.

My tactic of course is based on a lot of assumptions with regard to terrain, style of play, two roughly equal armies, etcetera. Some players will simply never confront the Horde but let other factions be their buffer, others will only fight them in woods or from the safety of a hill. And of course it helps tremendously if your guys and particularly your General have higher valour and morale than the Horde.

I suppose my own style is reflected in my tactic. Let us assume we can pick and chose our best troops, as we usually do when we prepare for a Horde battle. My armies are seldom centered on the ranged units, more on high-valour spears and swords. If I can, I usually bring 5 CS (500), 3 Pav Arb (180), 4 CMAA (240) and 2 RK (40) making a round total of 960 men. My first reserve will be CS and CK (the latter can provide a fast rescue if needed) and only then more Pav Arbs and such.

Normally the MW should be no match for your CS in hand-to-hand combat. Even if the MW have a decent morale and passable Attack value, their Charge is only 2, their Defence value is 0 and their missiles are not armour-piercing.

However, one thing you should never do is order your CS to attack one unit of MW out of a whole bunch and then let the CS figure it out for themselves. They will be drawn out of formation as well as position and get shot in the back.

Always let the CS attack in line abreast, interspersed with CMAA because those guys will make mincemeat of MW. CMAA have Charge 3 Attack 4, Morale 4 and the same speeds as MW. Let your spears roll thme back (the MW will move away from your spears) and let the CMAA jump them.

Your cavalry will be needed to fight the MHC, so you will have to wait and hope they become available soon to chase the MHA and MW. As long as they don't, your best weapon against the Mongol missile units (as against all missile units, particularly if they are mounted) is your own artillery. Hence my point that you should concentrate all your missile units on the Mongol missile units, not (as you might do intuitively) on the MHC.

Oh, and prayer also helps a lot. :laugh4:
I mean, no tactic is foolproof and Heaven knows I can be a fool as much a the next man.

Hope I made things clearer.

[macsen rufus]

Edit: not capable of reading... ignore what I said :clown:

[Odin]

It occurs mainly in the Eastern European steppe

Having played several Novgorod games I can confirm the pincer movement by the Mongols. I can also confirm that the AI has attempted this through woods as well. (the MHC attempting to flank my right, his left, as in the diagram).

So the "script" seems a valid statement and basis for analysis, however I am curious Adrian in your observations whats the % of the movements? Is it soely a terrain issue? Force structure of the defender? While i am sure its impossible to gauge with 100% accuracy I would be curious as to a rough estimate as to the overall AI attempt at the "script"

[Adrian II]

Having played several Novgorod games I can confirm the pincer movement by the Mongols. I can also confirm that the AI has attempted this through woods as well. (the MHC attempting to flank my right, his left, as in the diagram).Through woods as well? Interesting! It has probably been too long ago for me, so I figured it just couldn't be. But I am pretty set in my ways and I always use the woods against horse-heavy opponents in order to (hopefully) disorganise them early on.


Is it soely a terrain issue? Force structure of the defender? While i am sure its impossible to gauge with 100% accuracy I would be curious as to a rough estimate as to the overall AI attempt at the "script"In other words, what triggers it? Good question. I have improvised my post on the basis of my recollections, and since I never thought about this question before I can only make an educated guess. My guess would be: force structure. I think the pincer may be triggered by an infantry-heavy and therefore less maneuverable oppenent.

[Odin]

Through woods as well? Interesting! It has probably been too long ago for me, so I figured it just couldn't be. But I am pretty set in my ways and I always use the woods against horse-heavy opponents in order to (hopefully) disorganise them early on.

i happened to find out they went through the woods by this very method. I had a few troops hiding in there (I was the volga bulgarians and for the life of me i cant remember the name of thier upgraded polearm unit) and the mongol heavies came through, exactly as you depict in your diagram.



In other words, what triggers it? Good question. I have improvised my post on the basis of my recollections, and since I never thought about this question before I can only make an educated guess. My guess would be: force structure. I think the pincer may be triggered by an infantry-heavy and therefore less maneuverable oppenent.

the forest example I have i can confirm i was spear heavy. I got the full horde and had a garrison (the russian province west of Volga bulgaria, I suck at names....) of high level spears and a few heirs on horseback in defense.

So it seems to jive with your analysis, thanks again for posting this its great shop talk.

[Geezer57]

(I was the volga bulgarians and for the life of me i cant remember the name of their upgraded polearm unit)
In XL they're known as Kazanchis, and are a near-clone of Swiss Halberdiers (2/3/2/3/6 instead of 2/3/3/2/8). One of my favorite units - I had a bridge attack once where a single Kazanchi unit of sixty men assaulted the bridge against the enemy army, slowly ground thru the defenses - when the enemy broke, they still had 14 men left. :2thumbsup:

[Odin]

In XL they're known as Kazanchis, and are a near-clone of Swiss Halberdiers (2/3/2/3/6 instead of 2/3/3/2/8). One of my favorite units - I had a bridge attack once where a single Kazanchi unit of sixty men assaulted the bridge against the enemy army, slowly ground thru the defenses - when the enemy broke, they still had 14 men left. :2thumbsup:

Yep, thats them a dam fine unit and a real treasure in the Volga Bulgarian campaigns when you will face mongol horsemen at some point.

thanks I am horrible with names....

[macsen rufus]

With kazanchis and bashkorts, I reckon the VBs are the best faction to fight the mongols with. Excellent counter units :2thumbsup:

[gaijinalways]

Nice post Adrian. I too rarely fight the Mongols, often letting someone else deal with them initially. But I eventually 'enjoy' battling them, and trying to shoot them up as they keep trying to encircle me and pincer me as you have so nicely portrayed. The mobile Mongol forces are a real pain, though I usually have found it is difficult to get the Mongols to stay long, and they often retreat before they take huge losses. But of course, it depends on the terrain, and I don't recall if I have usually fought them on level ground.

[The Unknown Guy]

How about keeping the line intact but using one or two light cavalry units to keep the horse archers and mongol warriors on the move? Preferibly placing them at a spot where you can pince them yourself, or else gun them down with arbalests.