All-Cavalry Tactics: Missile and Melee

[Doug-Thompson]

Step 1: Take some of the mystery out of using missile cavalry.
Check (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73479)

Step 2: Raise the topic of using those missile cavalry with melee cavalry.
Here goes.

You can follow one simple guideline when using missile and melee cavalry together:

Each unit attacks the natural counter of the other. If no simple unit vs. counter match-up exists, attack with both types.

Assuming that the next patch fixes the two-hand and shield bugs, spears, pikes, pole arms and melee infantry in general will counter melee cavalry. Attack those with missile cavalry. Archers, javelin men and other missile troops counter missile cavalry. Melee them. Decent melee cavalry threaten both types. Attack those with both.

You could follow this one basic rule and do a decent job of coordinating both types of cavalry. The rest of this thread, hopefully, will go at least a little beyond that.

[Doug-Thompson]

Threatening to charge

Suppose that one melee cavalry and one missile cavalry unit confront a single rebel spear unit. You could follow the basic rule given above and leave your melee cavalry sitting in a corner while the missile unit wastes the rebels. That would do passably well.

Suppose, however, that you move the melee cavalry close enough to get the spears’ attention but far enough away to leave room for a nice charge. The spear unit, not being stupid, will face the potential charge — whether it comes or not. Now your missile cavalry can ride beside or behind the spears and fire away at a vulnerable quarter. The spears, as a rule, will choose slow death by arrows rather than quick annihilation by a cavalry charge. If they don’t, well, oblige them with quick annihilation. Just beginning a charge usually refocuses their attention, allowing you to halt the charge and take up your threatening position again.

If the spears try to close the range with the melee cavalry, simply ride away and reform after traveling a short distance. This can draw a spear unit off a hill. Now the missile cavalry can move in and cut the victims down from behind and above. I generally prefer a thin, two-rank line of melee cavalry when doing this since it takes less time to change facing and gallop away if necessary.

This two-units-to-one example works equally well with the end unit of an enemy line.

[Marquis of Roland]

Depending on the situation, I try to blow most of my ammo before my melee cav goes in. I group my HA's into regiments of 3-4 units plus 2 regiments of melee cav commanded by the general. I use the "C" tactic described in your guide, so generally I have three HA regiments forming the "C", 1 HA regiment on the far backside of the enemy line to keep them from changing formation or moving, and my melee regiments sort of just hover around outside the "C" waiting for an opportunity. I use loose formation because I'm afraid of enemy missile fire (consequently, enemy missile units are my first target) and I'm not up to par with my waypoint skills yet. I should probably use charge threats to disrupt foot archer fire more.

P.S.
Great guide you have there, it was the only thing preventing me from falling asleep at work hehehe

[TevashSzat]

I usually use cavalry heavy armies and i find that they are extremely effective. IMO, mobility is the most important thing so i will start off charging and killing all of the enemy ha followed by melee cavalry. With my cav dominant army, i will outnumber the enemy cav and will be fast enough to get out before enemy inf joins. After the enemy cav is gone, the rest of the battle is easy since you can quickly charge the infantry from multiple sides resulting in a quick mass rout

[Orda Khan]

As you know, Doug, I am fighting a SP campaign as Mongols using Regnum Dei so you can imagine my army set ups. My inf units are mainly garrison troops though they play a part in the field where it is necessary. On the whole my armies are on the hoof and in true Mongol fashion are generally 2/3 to 1/3 ratio of HA and h2h. I recommend trying the following manoeuvre which I shall call Constant Rotation.
Have your army divided into groups (number depends on army size) with a similar unit ratio per group. The enemy will tend to focus on your General but you offer no battle line as such and you can almost see the confusion among their ranks. When battle starts, each group is sent in an encircling manoeuvre and your Generals group marches to a new location. Once your groups are nicely positioned you begin to rotate, keeping the enemy as your axis. This includes you Generals group who is basically skirting the perimeter, any foray by the enemy can be cut down piecemeal by the units you have supporting your HA. Don't forget that your HA will provide a nice rear attack to any unit/s engaged by supporting melee cav. The constant movement helps to conserve arrows and should provide many weak spots that can be exploited as the enemy is drawn out of position

......Orda

[Doug-Thompson]

Sorry for the very late reply. Work's been very demanding lately.

Marquis of Roland:

First of all, thanks for the very kind remarks about the HA guide.

In general, I agree that you should do all the damage you can with missiles before committing to melee. Do all the damage you can to them before giving them any chance to hurt you.

However, you mention that this is a general rule. Among the exceptions should be my favorite, leading enemy melee cavalry into traps. Some of the very best melee cavalry suffer from the "impetuous" trait. More about that later.:beam:

Second, and possibly more important, missile fire and having units behind your enemy create big morale penalties that should be exploited in melee.

Anyway, the big point remains: There's no penalty to using all your ammo to its greatest effect. You will get free reloads for the next battle.

=========


With my cav dominant army, i will outnumber the enemy cav and will be fast enough to get out before enemy inf joins. After the enemy cav is gone, the rest of the battle is easy since you can quickly charge the infantry from multiple sides resulting in a quick mass rout.

This is a simple but profound point here: If you are preponderant in cavalry, you are — by definition — superior in cavalry. If you are all-cavalry, that preponderance exists and you have major mobility advantages on the strategy map.

Everything we know about countermeasures to our favorite units stresses that careful control is needed to prevent units — particularly the cavalry component of a balanced army — from getting destroyed piecemeal. That's where many of the best units of enemy melee cavalry can really suffer from their "impetuous" problem.:2thumbsup:

========

Orda:

I'm going to add the "Constant Rotation" description to the HA guide. It makes perfect sense. Even an all-HA army has a general.

I was almost ready to criticize splitting your melee cavalry up until I thought it through. If a mass of enemy melee cav chases one of your "sections," not only can you mass against it as you describe, but it leaves the rest of the enemy army naked of infantry support while leaving their melee cavalry naked of infantry support at the same time.

By design, any melee cav chasing one of your "sections" will draw flank fire and possibly flank charges from the neighboring sections.

Finally, your grouping allows greater and easier control. You have blanced 2/3 + 1/3 groups with numbers assigned to them. This must simplify things enormously.

Do you leave the melee cavalry in open formation?

[Marquis of Roland]

Yea, I agree sometimes I let the missile fire go on too long :beam:

I'll be going home to create some situations for melee opportunity practice, thanks doug.

[Orda Khan]

Orda:
I'm going to add the "Constant Rotation" description to the HA guide. It makes perfect sense. Even an all-HA army has a general.

Thanks, Doug :2thumbsup:


I was almost ready to criticize splitting your melee cavalry up until I thought it through.
Yes, at first it seems as though you are leaving yourself exposed but the strength of your army is its mobility. Against a predominantly cavalry opponent I would employ different tactics (but only because of the redzone)


Do you leave the melee cavalry in open formation?
No, my melee cav is usually in close formation with HA in loose square formation.

If we talk about 20 unit armies, my ideal set up would be something like this...

HA = Horse archers
MC = Melee Cav
SC = Shock Cav
HC = Heavy Cav

............group1.......................group2...........................group3.............
.........HA...HA...HA..............HA..HA..HA..HA................HA...HA...HA...........
............MC...MC........................................................MC...MC..............

............................SC.....................................SC............................... .
..............................................group4................................................
.................................................HA................................................. ..
...........................................HC..GEN..HC............................................

This gives an idea of deployment and group formations. Naturally, any use of terrain features to assist are an advantage. For example, the Shock Cav can be hidden in a strategic group of trees (I love ambush, just ask Tosa) and the enemy can be shepherded in such a way as to spring a nice surprise at the right moment. Anyway, in the above format there are 4 groups and 2 individual units.
The central 4 HA I class as my 'Mangudai' units, their role is to ride out and engage the enemy and create as much of a nuisance as possible while......
The two flank groups manoeuvre .........

Fig1

........group1...........................enemy

............................................group2



................................SC.................................SC


.............group4
.......................................................................................group3

and further...Fig2

.......................................group1



........group2............enemy




.............................SC....................................SC


.....group4...............................group3

In fig2 group3 can now be sent forward where it will encounter the enemy rear left flank. Group2 has changed face and is now attacking left>right and group1 has now turned on the enemy right flank.
While these flanks are peppered with arrows, your melee cav support can be forgotten about unless there is a charge or other attempt to drive off your HA. At this point use the HA to draw, let's say an enemy cav, into your waiting melee cav which should be capable of taking it out with a hammer and anvil attack; use HA as well if necessary.
Obviously, any exposed flank or isolated unit is prime pickings for your hidden shock cav.
With the enemy army in a central position on the map, group4 (Gen's group) can skirt either left or right, depending on available space and can therefore be used as a lure. Needless to say, group2 is going to be the busiest and probably suffer the greatest losses.
At some point the HA are going to be out of arrows (especially so if the enemy has a lot of highly armoured units) but by this time the battle should hopefully be decided. Depleted units and morale should work in your favour with one or more timely charges to deliver the coup de grace.
I've used this tactic since STW, where it was deadly and in MTW where armour played a bigger part, a lightweight Mongol army used it to beat the Byzantines (remember all those 100 man Byz inf?)
With care you could consider using Cantabrian Circle as well

.......Orda

[zstajerski]

I use missile cavalry speacially for armys consistant of infatry,
it the enemy lacks cavalry then you can gaet a heroic victory every time :smash:
Just enable skirmish mode and loose formation and attack their missiles first...

[Doug-Thompson]

The "Just Passing Through" countercharge

Put a melee cavalry unit into a long line two ranks deep and in loose formation. This unit can comb right through a square of friendly missile cavalry that is also in loose formation. The two run through each other almost without friction when galloping in opposite directions.

Now suppose a unit of enemy knights attacks a unit of your missile cavalry. Your unit auto-skirmishes away. The knights pursue. Your missile cavalry runs toward a unit of friendly melee cavalry for support. That supporting melee unit attacks the knights -- right through the missile cavalry.

This situation looks a lot less than ideal to an experienced melee cavalryman. In fact, it looks like a missed clean charge opportunity. In fact, it is.

However, the collision brings the enemy knights to a dead stop -- in point-blank range of the missile cavalry, which is now no longer being pursued. These fellows stop running, turn around and fire into their former pursuers.

Friendly fire cause few worries. The long, open formation of friendly cavalry leaves lots of open shooting space. If the missile cavalry can walk around to the shiedless side of the enemy unit and let flanking fire rip, so much the better.

Remember that being under missile fire give morale penalties. So does taking losses from that effective, short-range fire, especially if the missile cavalry go to the flank or rear of their erstwhile pursuers. All this makes it likely your melee cavalry will rout the enemy knights if the melee units are anywhere close to equals. Then your missile cavalry can pursue, firing right into the remaining knights' backs.

Whether or not it's necessary or even desirable to have your melee cavalry in loose formation is debatable. I'm up for a debate. :2thumbsup:

[Ars Moriendi]

If we talk about 20 unit armies, my ideal set up would be something like this...

HA = Horse archers
MC = Melee Cav
SC = Shock Cav
HC = Heavy Cav



I'm a bit confused about your classification of close combat cavalry. Could you please give some actual examples of units in each category (MC/SC/HC) ?
Is it a division by stats, like : MC = low charge, high att; SC = high charge ; HC=high armour ?
Or it's just a functional classification - could be the same unit, just use them in different roles ?

[Orda Khan]

I'm a bit confused about your classification of close combat cavalry. Could you please give some actual examples of units in each category (MC/SC/HC) ?
Is it a division by stats, like : MC = low charge, high att; SC = high charge ; HC=high armour ?
Or it's just a functional classification - could be the same unit, just use them in different roles ?
I'll give an example using Mongols...
Melee cav........Alan Mercenaries
Shock cav.......Light Lancers
Heavy cav......Heavy Lancers/Khan's Guard
Of course it also depends on what units happen to be in that particular army, in which case, same units can perform different roles. The classifications I used were more to point out a particular role ( the shock cav can devastate without particularly great charge stats because it hits a unit already pinned in melee )
My armies are generally lightweight so my heavy cav are used in the final charge as a devastating force

.........Orda