Play testing is a disgrace [Archive]

TheWay

04-03-2001, 08:33

Do you know that the earliest versions of wargames by Koei had better diplomacy and administrative options than Shogun?

I also read with amusement about the makers of this game crowing about their hundred playtesters. You would think that, pre-patch, they would have discovered any of the following:

a. Hojo Horde (did none of the underlings ever play Shimazu? Or are they Hojo Whores?)

b. Charge bonus during routing. Oh I get it, they usually use the koku cheat to make monks and gunners.

c. Disappearing heirs, the blatant cheating of the AI in strategic moves that is used to compensate for its general coma, the god-like monks, wrong kill probabilities etc?

Christ. I think the game works now is because the game material is so rich and not because the designers have done a bang up job of depicting it.

If it takes at least another half a year to playtest and tune the expansion, do it. Now with even more Jap units, which nobody really wants, play balance will be affected.

And this is not counting the problems that cripple the whole game and will take a remake to correct. Shogun is a game on crutches and band-aids.

ShadowKill

04-03-2001, 08:57

we should start a forum just for people that like to bitch to much...

------------------
Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)
You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!

smoothdragon

04-03-2001, 09:07

You should be happy CA even posts patches at all. ES patches the AOE series only when the X-pack is released, making the previous game obsolete...

Tone

04-03-2001, 09:38

Smoothie is right. It aint perfect but it's better than many.

solypsist

04-03-2001, 10:28

the way most beta-games are dispersed is in small-format CDs. what this means is that a tester is not always getting the full game; instead, just a small playable feature. Sort of like the Diablo II demo: if you've played it, you know that it contains only the first two scenarios, but is directly from the main game (the same two scenarios are the first two you play when you purchase the game.)

Therefore, people who get the battefield section may not necesarrily get the campaign section, and so on. Play-testing only shows bugs in programming (freezing when a player does something, etc.) but may not always show how these things interact when combined with other parts (ie. campaign Hojo Horde and battlefield mode)

TheWay

04-03-2001, 11:13

To Shadowkill

of course I am bitching, or is this a forum for asslickers only? I dont think so. You disagree with any of my points BTW?

To Smoothdragon

Sure it is better than some. But imagine how much bitching there was when the Age of Kings did that. Are we saying that Shogun is good because it avoids the worst scenario?

To Solypist

Thank you for explaining how beta testing works. However I have a doubt - surely some people must have played the strategic element and seen the Hojo Horde. Surely some people must have played purely the tatical game and seen how routing troops smash their way through the enemy. Kinda begs the question doesnt it?

smoothdragon

04-03-2001, 11:52

Hindsight is certainly 20/20. You can say that the Hojo horde is unstoppable, the warrior monk is so damn powerful, and routing units have a charging bonus (which has been fixed in a patch BTW). But I doubt people actually can see this testing the game for a few weeks and testing only a portion of the game.

Looking at Age of Kings, no one knew the Chinese/Mongol flush would be imbalanced or that the Tueton TC Push could not be stopped using equal resources. Even with months of play-testing, people didn't know that the Korean War Wagon would be so dominant, as play testers, many of them experts in the age community, initially thought the WW could be countered with mangonels or halbs. If you were the play tester during this time, you wouldn't be looking exactly for these imbalances because you didn't know it existed.

On another note: CA's patch system is not just better than some, but better than MOST. They have patched or in the process of re-patching some of those imbalances/bugs you mentioned, which says a lot about how much this company cares about its gaming community. Think about it: We online players in the Shogun community make up less than 5% of the people who buy PC games. The majority of players don't play online and just have fun at home. The fact that this company spends a portion on its resources to make patches (and in quick succession I might add) to please a minority of their consumer base shows that this company is compassionate of its fans. ES has known about the War Wagon and Flushing civs imbalance for well over nine months now but have yet to release even ONE patch...

"But imagine how much bitching there was when the Age of Kings did that"

BTW, they are still doing that...ignoring the fan base. You think they made the TCs garrisonable and gave us a scout at the beginning of the game because the fan base thought it would be a good idea? It was to make the game easier for newbies, which make up 90% of game sales...

Dark Phoenix

04-03-2001, 13:07

Smoothdragon who owns ES isnt it Microsoft. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shogun did not need that much patching as some games like AOS2 or Fallout Tactics which I have taken back as it crashes all the time. Shogun does have some problems though.

------------------
DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

smoothdragon

04-03-2001, 13:19

"Smoothdragon who owns ES isnt it Microsoft"

Um, no. ES is the game developer, the one who actually thinks up the idea and makes the game. ES is an autonomous game developing company and its newest game in development, RTSIII, has no ties to Microsoft. Microsoft is the publisher of the Age series, and owns the copyrights to the series. Microsoft makes all of the manuals, boxes, labels, marketing, etc. for the game. Since ES and Microsoft can't agree on some issues the next addition to the Age series will not happen soon, and ES has moved on to work on RTSIII, a 3D RTS.

Erado San

04-03-2001, 13:51

The Hojo Horde takes some time to appear. In play testing I doubt you go as far as that before you give the green light.

TheWay

04-03-2001, 15:05

Dear Smoothdragon

thanks for the calm and informative reply.

However I have some comments. Your examples for AOE are mainly a question of play balance between different tribes, each with unique strengths and balances and units. I would be hard pressed to say that Shogun possesses that degree of individuality, safe for some minor differences like cheaper archers or (gasp!) cheaper castles AND the best land. A game like AOE is much harder to balance IMO than Shogun, which means that there is really very little validity to your first paragraph.

Second, yes the patches are prompt and for the benefit of the public. However I would like to ask 2 questions: firstly are these problems affordable in the first place, and second, is it indicative of a bigger error?
Do I want to play a strategy game with multiple opponents knowing that near the end of the game I will definitely face ONE enemy, the SAME enemy and who has a ridiculous configuaration and amount of troop? (its not really patched, people complain of other hordes once the HOJO gets a ball chained to their ankles).

Secondly is this indicative of a larger problem at fault, that the game is not well planned, makes do with (inadequate) patches to get by, does not really deliver what it promises, and is it really play tested? One would have thought a game that promises both strategic and tatical play would have observed the interaction between the two.

To Erado San

this may be true. But whose fault is it ultimately?

ShadowKill

04-03-2001, 19:07

is there anything about the game you like....

if there is nothing you like you ARE free to sell it or return it.

------------------
Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)
You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!

Dark Phoenix

04-03-2001, 20:26

Smoothdragon they own just about every other developer that they produce games for. I am sure that they are partly owned by Microsoft if I remember correctly, which I obviously didnt before. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

Laertes

04-03-2001, 22:10

While I'm pretty critical of the game, a lot of what I criticize is really design-related -- the granularity and complexity, or lack thereof, of the map and so forth.

To their credit, there haven't been that many blatant *programming* glitches. The nVidia problems come to mind (and not being much of a Windows programmer, let alone DX, I can't be sure who's at fault), but testers often let rather blatant bugs slip through for other games. Even in pretty good games...

For instance, CC2:ABTF had AI mortars that were treated as direct-fire weapons when in LOS (imagine a seven-man team charging a mortar team from 60m away... and the mortar crew nets a bullseye on EACH INDIVIDUAL's HEAD in sequence. It doesn't get much more blatant than that.); SMAC gave the AI infinite-range missiles; FO/FO2 had numerous crash bugs; HOMM III, when patched, had the fifth-inventory-slot bug... and so forth. These errors, and more (for all those games...) arguably should have been picked up in Q&A -- but were not.

Some companies give really good support (Shrapnel/Malfador comes to mind regarding SE4, for instance), some basically tell the users to buzz off, and some are in between.

------------------
He is justly served; It is a poison temper'd by himself.

Gregoshi

04-03-2001, 22:56

Testers come in different qualities just like in every other endevour. A good tester has a rare mindset that looks at things in unusual ways - and has a knack at breaking things. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Some things that determine how good any testing will be are:

1) The tester. A good tester will question nearly everything..."Hmmm, was that supposed to happen?" Some people scrutinize things more than others or are more sensitive events. Just look at many of the topics and responses in this forum to see how different people react to the same situation. Some don't bother to comment, others comment rationally, and yet others flame out. I make a terrible tester because I tend to accept things at face value - "that must be the way it is supposed to be." Others I worked with had a way of sniffing out the smallest bugs.

2) The tester's knowledge. Syntax or other hard type bugs are easy spot because the game locks up, terminates or does something visually screwy. However, logic bugs are not so easy. A key element in finding logic bugs is understanding how Shogun is supposed to work. Unless the testers are provided with documentation it may be hard to judge whether a game event was intended to happen that way or not. A good tester would at least ask the question. An example is the "port bug". This argument has been around since the beginning as to whether it is a bug or a feature. Why is there a debate? Because we don't know what the developers intentions were and/or their rational behind it and they haven't commented on it in the forums. We don't understand the internal workings of the game therefore some view it as a bug, others view it as a feature. In this case, those who view it as a feature would not have reported it as a bug if they had been beta testers. Another good one is "I was winning, why did my army suddenly rout?" Only some one familiar with the internal routing logic and having complete knowledge of the situation at the time of the rout can determine if it is a bug or not. Alas, we are mere players do not have that knowledge and ability.

3) How the testing is set up and conducted has an affect. Is the testing plan complete? Is it thorough? Have the testers been prepared enough to do their job? How are bugs reported? How are fixes tested? Solypsist described how beta testing is typically set up for games. As both he and smoothdragon pointed out, I'd hope that some one was looking at testing the game as a whole to compliment the testing of individual pieces.

4) How many of these bugs were "obvious" only after you were told about them? Well, except for the Hojo Horde. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif If you jumped up from your seat the first time you encountered each of these bugs and screamed "that's not right!", then perhaps you would make a good beta tester. If it took you a while to come to the conclusion that these were bugs, then you might not be a good beta tester (sorry the game has already been released...).

I'm getting off my soapbox now.

------------------
Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

TheWay

04-03-2001, 23:46

To Shadowkill

Of course there are aspects I like, even love about the game. I would not be in here talking about it otherwise.

Just because I want to point out the thought that Shogun does not seem to be play-tested well and perhaps balanced does not mean that I think it is a complete piece of junk. This is childish.

To Laertes

Isnt it a sad thing that nowadays a relatively bug free game is the rarity rather than even unusual? Mind you, I understand that coding a game, especially a new type of game is a difficult venture with uncertain rewards. However I just wonder in what other areas of life do we accept readily such imperfect products.

To Gregoshi

Thanks for the heads up. Your description seems to validate some of my comments in that play testing has not been great.

In reference to your question that whether I have noticed the bugs myself, I had noticed the Hojo Horde (of course, there were so many units stacked up in one province that new units simply zoomed off the map), charge bonus, heirs, cheating but not monks, for my examples. The thing is, it doesnt take too long in real time to get hojo horde in the first place (2 hours? 3 hours?) It is shocking that beta testers do not play that long before saying well done?

Gregoshi

04-04-2001, 01:29

Regarding the Hojo Horde: perhaps the HH was an intentional design decision - in a Frankenstein's monster kinda way. It may have been the only way they had at that time to make the game challenging at the harder levels. They may have thought the players will have fun knocking down a large army. Alas, in many games the HH is an unstoppable steamroller and for many players the process of dealing with the HH is not fun. If we are to believe the pre-release information on the expansion pack, they have found a way to beef up the AI and eliminate the need for a HH in order to up the challenge of the game. Amazing what an extra year of experience can do for improving a game.

Regarding Missing Hairs: see HH discussion above. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Regarding Missing Heirs: I'm surprised that anyone found this one right away short of dumb luck. I know from hindsight that it happened to me. However, at the time I figured I had lost track of the heir and they were killed in a battle since the game does not announce when they die and they have no special marker.

Regarding Rarity of Bug Free Games Today: it is tough to make such a statement. Look at the size and complexity of games today compared to 5-10 years ago. Games used to fit on 1-2 floppies. Now many games need more than one CD and top the 1GB level in size. Granted there are usually movies in there but the size has still grown tremedously, i.e., there are many, many more opportunities to introduce an error.

------------------
Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[This message has been edited by Gregoshi (edited 04-03-2001).]

Catiline

04-04-2001, 02:17

That's a bit of a conspiracy theory you're developing about the Hojo horde Gregoshi. It's not a bug it's a feature hehehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif . Personally I don't think the playtesting can have been that bad. For one thing we don't know what was picked up by the testers and changed, and you've got to remember the relative numbers involved. Compared to the number of people who purchased the game in the first week it was released I suspect thenumber of testers was tiny. Faults are going to show up masssively quicker, and people are inclined to test to destruction. At least things are being addressed, we'll have had three major patches in about the first year, which isn't really bad support compared to many games.

P.S Keep it calm people
------------------
It's not a bug, it's a feature

[This message has been edited by Catiline (edited 04-03-2001).]

solypsist

04-04-2001, 02:19

to The Way:

sometimes I get the feeling you're determined to disregard whatever explanation may come your way in an attempt to stay begrudged at the game. when I first appeared on the .Org the same week STW was released, the forums were chock full of people ranting about this or that, despite the fact that sometimes what they mistook for bugs or inbalances were actually intentional. One example is the generals who were already of high honor/battles won, whom the player had never used- "How did I get a general with 10 wins when I never used him before?! There must be something wrong!!"; they assumed it was a bug.
When it was pointed out that game followed certain historical frames (certain famous generals for each clan), rather than admitting the complaint was a bit exaggerated, they just simply dismissed the explanation, or picked it apart, all in an effort to validate their now-solved complaint.
Some people just don't want to be helped.

[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 04-03-2001).]

smoothdragon

04-04-2001, 05:58

"Your examples for AOE are mainly a question of play balance between different tribes, each with unique strengths and balances and units."

All of the civs in AOK have the same tech tree, some military units, and same buildings. The only difference is a civ bonus, like reduced archer cost or free wheelbarrow. Each civ does get one unique unit and one unique tech (with the X-pack), but they are rarely used (unless its war wagons).

"I would be hard pressed to say that Shogun possesses that degree of individuality, safe for some minor differences like cheaper archers or (gasp!) cheaper castles AND the best land."

The only difference between the Vikings and the Franks is the civ bonuses. Same with Shogun, like Hojo's cheaper castles or Shimazu's cheaper No-Dachi.

"A game like AOE is much harder to balance IMO than Shogun, which means that there is really very little validity to your first paragraph."

I'd say Shogun is much more difficult, since the lands and initial troop counts have to be divided so each of the clans have a chance. Finding the right balance for every clan is nearly impossible, clans can double team each other, some clans attack earlier than others, the percent increase in farm output may outweigh the lower unit count early on, etc. At least in AOK you always start out with a TC, 5 sheep, 2 boars, a nearby forest and a gold mine.

"firstly are these problems affordable in the first place, and second, is it indicative of a bigger error?"

Hindsight is 20/20. I already posted that the developers aren't psychics.

"Do I want to play a strategy game with multiple opponents knowing that near the end of the game I will definitely face ONE enemy, the SAME enemy and who has a ridiculous configuaration and amount of troop? (its not really patched, people complain of other hordes once the HOJO gets a ball chained to their ankles)."

It's the same with many games, since no one can predict how players, both AI and human, will abuse a bonus or a position that was balanced early on. People didn't think that the free wheelbarrow and handcart would make the Vikings unstoppable and on all water maps and greatly formidable on land maps. Vikings are the Hojo of AOK! Free wheelbarrow and handcart gives them an economic advantage so great that they can just flood enemy towns with champions with impunity. Initially, these civs were balanced but no one can predict how players will manipulate certain bonuses or map positions to reveal an imbalance.

"Secondly is this indicative of a larger problem at fault, that the game is not well planned, makes do with (inadequate) patches to get by, does not really deliver what it promises, and is it really play tested?"

When ES did play-testing for AOK for well over a month, they fixed HUNDREDS of bugs and glitches, as well as balancing issues. But you can't find all of them and can't predict what players will do. When the fishing boat bug and the farm bug was revealed, people were upset. But then they realized that these are two bugs out of HUNDREDS that slid through the door undetected. No one is perfect, and longer play-testing means giving the competition more time to roll out a product and dominate the market share. Game development companies are businesses who goal is to make money and turn PROFITABLE.

[This message has been edited by smoothdragon (edited 04-04-2001).]

ShadowKill

04-04-2001, 06:57

"However I just wonder in what other areas of life do we accept readily such imperfect products."

Well it started for those who believe in god back then hell nothing has ever been perfect and we get by on what is given.

------------------
Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)
You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!

Catiline

04-04-2001, 09:03

What are you drivelling on about Shadow http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif?

It's difficult to class PC games as imperfect products IMO. You can't go back to hte cinema and say, hey that film was good, but it could have been great. I want some extra scenes made or my money back. games and films are entertainment, and as such come under very subjective criteria. It's not often a case of something not working, more that something doesn't feel right.

------------------
It's not a bug, it's a feature

Gregoshi

04-04-2001, 10:04

No conspiracy theories intended Catline. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough but I was just throwing out a "what if". The purpose was to illustrate how what may be perceived as a "great idea" on the drawing board just bombs when it hits the public. The Hojo Horde vs You is a variant of that popular and classic tale of David & Goliath. Everybody loves that story. So it should be a hit if we put it in the game, right?

Please do not take any of that example as fact or at least fact as I see it. It was to help make a point.

BTW, I'm 2-0 vs the Hojo Horde. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif You can call me David. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Just don't ask about my online record - though I'm sure Dark Phoenix would be more than happy to answer that! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

------------------
Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

BlueWhistler

04-04-2001, 10:08

When I first picked up the game STW and played it, some of the same questions TheWay
posed crossed my mind.

The running away "bonus", the Hojo Horde, etc... These glitches were annoying to say the least, but STW is a rich game making it easier to tolerate the bugs.

I believe TheWay pretty much sees the game as I do...a very good game with some bugs which shouldn't have been there.

People might say I know little or nothing about what it takes to put a game out on the market (which is probably true), but as a simple consumer...I am only concerned with the final product which I paid good money for. I have every right to bitch and complain about flaws that arguably could and should have been dealt with prior to release...especially when I spend my money for a "finished" product.

BUT, the game industry has for quite some time now been more than willing to pump out buggy games knowing full well that they can use the consumer to finish getting the bugs out of the game.

So me, being the simple consumer that I am...I simply choose not to buy games when initially released. In the past, I used to get all excited about a new game and willingly payed top dollar for new games. Of course, I would get disappointed when an annoying bug popped up. So now, I simply wait 6 months to a year before I buy a game.
Now I pay less and I can dl the patches from game review sites such as GameSpot (a great site).

I find it amusing that there are ppl out there that are willing to buy a buggy product (possibly even the initial releases) and argue in support of the company that put out the product http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Now that is a valuable customer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Tone

04-04-2001, 11:12

Shadowkill-san you've stopped using punctuation again, it gets really hard to work out wot your on about. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Dark Phoenix

04-04-2001, 11:37

Greg old timer good to see you back here did you finally remember the url. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Isnt your record 2 wins and 100 losses. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

------------------
DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

Gregoshi

04-04-2001, 13:33

We've been making cars for over 100 years now. The early cars were hardly reliable machines. But they were cool and people bought them anyway. As the years went on, we started making better cars. And here we are today with state of the art vehicles - and they are still buggy (ha! no pun intended!) Witness all the safety recalls in recent years. Yes, 100 years later we are still making crappy cars. Not as crappy as the first ones, but crappy none-the-less. Yet millions of them are sold every year. There is a pretty tolerant bunch of consumers!

Software & computers in general are still in their infancy. The technology is evolving at an incredible pace. It's no wonder we have less than perfect consumer products. No sooner do we get familiar with the new technology, then it changes on us and we have to learn all over again. Until the evolution slows down and stablizes, we'll just have to put up with defective products.

Which is more fun than riding a horse - or playing Pong.

Did Dark Phoenix say something?

------------------
Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

Dark Phoenix

04-04-2001, 15:17

Your site going now as well. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

ShadowKill

04-04-2001, 19:24

the question posted was...

""However I just wonder in what other areas of life do we accept readily such imperfect products."

was vague but basicly i only had time to make a short comment. but what i was getting at was that nothing is perfect. Never has been never will be. humans are flawed computers are flawed everything has it's flaws. so why do we ask for perfection?

------------------
Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)
You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!

BlueWhistler

04-04-2001, 20:45

I do not think it is unreasonable for people to ask for a better or less flawed product. Ultimately ppl (consumers) let their likes or dislikes known by not purchasing or purchasing the product.

I don't think anyone here is saying that they won't buy buggy games. Most ppl here have been buying games for some time and are aware that most games will have a certain amount of bugginess to them.

Complaining about the bugs, I hope, serves to encourage or prod game makers to take more steps to put out a less buggy game. The last thing I want is to have software companies become complacent and have the consumer become the group that completes the product by finding the bugs and flaws. I'd rather the software companies do that before I purchase the product.

With regard to other less than perfect consumer products that ppl use...I believe cars were mentioned. When comparing cars to games...you are basically saying that if your brand new car turned left when you turned your steering wheel to the right, you would be more than happy to wait for the next patch to come out to fix your vehicle. Probably more accurately...you would be annoyed that the car you bought had the problem that it had...now when driving you would have to remember that your car turns opposite your steering wheel...well, at least until you can dl the fix from CarSpot.com http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

RageFury

04-05-2001, 06:52

My opinion here may be controversial and offensive but here goes...

Since when has anything man has ever created been 100% pefect?!?!!?

Shogun is n enjoyable and fun game..the developers listen to the players....as much as u may not like the bugs it is nowhere near as bad as some games that r released unplayable followed by a 20mb patch..

The game does not bugger up ur puter..it does not constantly crash...and apart from minor bugs is pretty darn good...

Why not accept things as they r for once...yes u r entitled to quality goods but as i said...nothing is ever perfect...when u create something 100% perfect in ur life then mayb u can bitch about other peoples work...

Do you people buy these games and go through it looking for something to whinge about??

It is not bad as games go...and to be honest i am tired of hearingg these EXACT SAME arguments over and over and over again for nearly a year now

Fury

'CLAN RAGE'

BlueWhistler

04-05-2001, 13:23

LOL http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Firstly, I don't think ppl complain/whine/bitch about the bugginess in a game soley for the benefit of gamers. I complain with hope that game makers who peruse the site may read my complaint. And yes, I am also aware that there are other ways for my message to reach the game makers.

Secondly, I don't think the ppl complaining about the bugs are asking for a 100% perfect game. You may claim that we do in order to bolster your argument, but we don't. Asking the companies to truly do their best in attacking flaws/bugs in the games they put out is not unreasonable. And even if they did a good job...I don't think there is anything wrong with urging them to do better if it is at all possible.

So, can we please quit with the crapola about 100% perfect products and how no product is absolutely flawless. That is a no-brainer.

EuroSan

04-05-2001, 13:53

Fury....i have made something 100% perfect http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
My Daughter was/is 100% perfect http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

------------------
May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

RageFury

04-05-2001, 17:48

Mayb u r right but i have been hearing the exact same complaints for nearly a year like i said and i just got irritated.....the developers if they have been reading these forums have also heard it about a hundred times.

Also Whistler i think u r wrong there as well...u may complain for the benefit of gamers and developers alike but some/quite a few bitch just for the sake of bitching...cos they like to complain....i bet some of these complainers we see in here complain and write letter about everything they ever buy....as for the 100% thing..i guess that was bullshit ...hehehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

San that don't count mate...ur wife did all the work not u http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by RageFury (edited 04-05-2001).]

BlueWhistler

04-05-2001, 21:25

Heh Heh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I will agree that there are some ppl who love to complain just for the sake of complaining. I work in a job that requires me to conduct some customer service.
And everyday I always get a number of ppl laying on some of the lamest complaints in the world. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif They even, on occasion, threaten me while complaining at the same time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif How they think that will solve their problems is beyond me...but I digress http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Personally, I am middle of the road when it comes to making complaints. If I can resolve the issue myself with little hassle, I do so without complaint. But if asked what could be made better...I'll mention everything I can http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

With STW, I waited to purchase the game in order for some of the bugs to be worked out.
I don't really mind that so much since I end up paying about $20 less for a game with the bugs worked out (meaning I can dl patches from a site).

This topic started with TheWay listing some of his complaints (which actually were my concerns until I was able to dl the patches).
The responses that followed chastised him for bringing forth his complaints. His complaints were not unreasonable...the game makers may not be able to deliver 100% which is fine...but the last thing we should let happen is for these companies to get complacent. Game makers can discern for themselves what complaints to address and which to ignore.

RageFury

04-06-2001, 04:01

yeh i have had problems with customer service too.....

I was not suggesting thatno-one should ever complain...because as u say we do not want the companies to think they can release crappy products and get away with it...

But Shogun has been out for a hell of a long time now...and people bring up these complaints like they r new and horrific things...even if they only just bought the game they should realise that it has been out so long.....

If the developers have not taken notice in all the time it has been out....or are not in the provcess of fixing it...then i don't think they ever will http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Good Luck in ur customer service...i worked part-time in a shop and i know the nicest people can turn into utter a*!holes when they want to complain http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Fury

'CLAN RAGE'

EuroSan

04-06-2001, 05:53

What happend to "Customer´s are allways right" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

Kagnok

04-06-2001, 08:36

Is the Hojo Horde a bug? Or is it a result of the simulation as played?

Is the routing charge bonus a bug? Or, is it just something that bugs you?

Disappearing heirs is probably a bug. But, don't you think you're over-reacting a bit? I will assume you have returned all of your microsoft products before taking a hard line on a...game...being bug-free?

------------------
Being killed is bad.

solypsist

04-06-2001, 12:40

Quote This topic started with TheWay listing some of his complaints (which actually were my concerns until I was able to dl the patches).
The responses that followed chastised him for bringing forth his complaints. [/QUOTE]

Actually, The Way's posts were less a matter of discussion for these problems, and instead slammed the playtesters for not being, in his opinion, the kind of playtester he would be. It's okay to complain about a game, but unless he was able to bring something constructive to the discussion, most of the .Org users were just wondering why was bothering to post at all. Hey, if he can bitch just for the sake of bitching, we can do the same about whiny users. But we, the Dojo members BlueWhistler accuses of chiding, were rather simply trying to deflate the thread into a reasonable discussion of educating TheWay on what creating a game entails (the exception of these users is Shadowkill, the master of speaking-without-thinking). But no matter how much explanation was offered, TheWay was not going to let anyone change his mind that his view was right-on, which in the end is really a waste of the Dojo members' time. We're here to help, not be abused.

[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 04-06-2001).]

TheWay

04-07-2001, 08:04

Solypsist

you are way off the mark here. For somebody who announces his intention to help newbies and people who wish to ask questions, you are remarkably short-tempered and irritable. If anybody has answered my questions, which I asked in a reasonable and inquiring voice, it is NOT you but the others. All you have done is shoot off short vagues replies and then complain that other people do not take your words at face value.

STOP trying to foist responsibility for the discussion that has not gone the way you like on ME. True, I proceeded to ask questions until I received what I thought to be reasonable replies, upon which I stopped posting (but havent stopped reading). ONLY you keep bitching in the sidelines about how NEWbies dare to question the ultimate wisdom of the old folks around here and not stand to attention with every short uninterested reply they toss off. HOW DARE YOU.

Yes I asked and probed, but that is my nature to get things clear instead of any orneriess on my part. On the other hand, from certain posts in the past as well, you have been much less helpful than certain other people.