Big Cohens big gay boatride for 11 year olds.

[Fragony]

Ok, regardless of how you think of gayparades, whatever the hell it is it's good for, we are taking it a little bit further here in lalaland.

Ok, amsterdams great leader weakknee cohen gave the go for an extra boat for gays for the innocent ages this year, 11 to 14, who already know they are gay. Hmmmm, the pro-childrape lobby's can once again be proud of theirselves, I am sure it will be a fest afterwards with plenty shredding. Arent we (well they) really pushing these kids into a direction here? Children of that age can be a bit bisexual, that is normal, now we tell them they are really gay.

This sick or what?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'll let this one stay for now because I think there's a point in there somewhere. :beam:

Let's ensure we discuss whatever it is without bashing minorities or other people's views.

:beadyeyes2:

[Watchman]

:stupido2:
...no, can't say I've yet noticed much of a point. Perhaps someone could elaborate ?

[Fragony]

:stupido2:
...no, can't say I've yet noticed much of a point.

I personally think you are being clueless in the first degree here, if not elaborating probably would be a total waste of perfectly fine nutrition.

[Watchman]

The OP seems to be implying quite a lot. I'd personally prefer to see it spelled straight rather than having to try guessing what you actually want to say.

[Banquo's Ghost]

:stupido2:
...no, can't say I've yet noticed much of a point. Perhaps someone could elaborate ?


Well, Fragony can speak for himself, but I think the points for discussion might be:

At what age, and by what methods, should we introduce children to the variations in sexuality that they may experience in their own development and the wider world? Is such an introduction desirable?

:shrug:

[Fragony]

The OP seems to be implying quite a lot. I'd personally prefer to see it spelled straight rather than having to try guessing what you actually want to say.

If you can read Ecco Homo I should provide little challenge. EDIT BG.

A 11 year old child cannot know he's gay, maybe some do but most don't. It is normal that young kids are a bit insecure by their sexual identity, and that is being played upon here. They are basicly told they are gay, when that is a great uncertainty. That, and I find it sick am sich that 11 year olds are exposed to something like a gay parade but that's just me.

[Stig]

It's sick yes, but let's not blame Cohen, yes he gave the final go, but don't think he looked into it himself, he's the mayor.

[Watchman]

If you can read Ecco Homo I should provide little challenge. EDIT BG.

A 11 year old child cannot know he's gay, maybe some do but most don't. It is normal that young kids are a bit insecure by their sexual identity, and that is being played upon here. They are basicly told they are gay, when that is a great uncertainty. That, and I find it sick am sich that 11 year olds are exposed to something like a gay parade but that's just me.
Your rank homophobia has been duly noted.

Personally I very much doubt if you can "make" someone to be gay, which seems to be what is being suggested here. Rather, if there's reason to assume the kids have homosexual leanings isn't it just a good thing to properly inform them about the ins and outs of it before they hit the really troublesome puberty stage ? The ones who then really do swing that way ought to then end up more comfortable with themselves, sparing the world a fair lot of unnecessary teen angst, whereas those whose ambivalency ultimately leans more on the "straight" side come off with a better understanding of the matter and otherwise go about their lives in the normal fashion.

But really, I'd like to have a bit more hard information to go by about this whole topic. What's this "boat" talk mean in practice anyway ? Who are these "they" who "know [these kids] are gay" ? The children themselves ? Their parents ? Child psychiatrists ? Who ?

The lack of any and all real data provided on what's this really all about and the relevant circumstances and actors has thus far been fairly complete, by what I can see. And I dunno about you, but I dislike fumbling around in the dark.

[Fragony]

But really, I'd like to have a bit more hard information to go by about this whole topic. What's this "boat" talk mean in practice anyway ? Who are these "they" who "know [these kids] are gay" ? The children themselves ? Their parents ? Child psychiatrists ? Who ?


They are they,

http://www.hiptravelguide.com/amsterdam/gay9.jpg

I wouldn't exactly call this babystepping your way into sexual maturity.

[Idaho]

If some kids want to get on a float and dance about or get dressed up - so what? I don't think this will "make them gay" and I don't think it will may them targets for abuse. Some of them may well be gay, so may not. What does it matter?

[BDC]

They let 11 year olds into religious services without too much worrying. How is that any different from this? Well, usually with more clothes.

I still wouldn't let any child I was responsible for go on a boat with a bunch of nearly-naked men. It's asking for issues.

[Watchman]

They are they,

http://www.hiptravelguide.com/amsterdam/gay9.jpg

I wouldn't exactly call this babystepping your way into sexual maturity.
Thanks for nothing. I can get that much without asking right fine, thankyouverymuch.

Don't you have some sort of article around you could link or something ? This whole discussion is kind of lacking any solid ground to build on at the moment you know.

[Stig]

12 o'clock news:
They won't be as naked as the older gays.
Parents will accompany them.
Cohen didn't even want it.

[Fragony]

Thanks for nothing. I can get that much without asking right fine, thankyouverymuch.

You must be mighty finelooking then.

[Watchman]

I was really referring to the nonexistent information content, but yes, I have been described as handsome. :biker:

[Fragony]

My bad, been living here for too long :laugh4:

Got article for you here but I doubt it would be of much use for you, it's in dutch.

http://www.elsevier.nl/nieuws/laatste_24_uur/artikel/asp/artnr/138315/index.html

[Watchman]

Got article for you here but I doubt it would be of much use for you, it's in dutch.

http://www.elsevier.nl/nieuws/laatst...315/index.htmlNo thank you, I'm driving. :balloon2:

Seriously now. I've like el zippo nada idea of the facts and circumstances surrounding the topic, and for the time being you seem to be the only one who could rectify the situation. So Who, What, Where ?

[Stig]

Important things in that article:
A 14 year old came with the idea himselfs.
The mayor didn't want to allow it till parents said they would come with their children.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I'll step in for Greg on this one. "Whatever floats your boat.":balloon2:

[Fragony]

Important things in that article:
A 14 year old came with the idea himselfs.


How convenient for 'homo-organisatie COC, dat het plan steunde'

[Watchman]

14 sounds like the age where not a few kids start becoming interested in the other sex, you know. Or, well, the same sex in this case.

Oughta result in some personal anxiety during phys ed in school.

[Banquo's Ghost]

How convenient for 'homo-organisatie COC, dat het plan steunde'

I'd appreciate it if we kept the discussion of a contentious issue like this one in English.

Otherwise I'll have to lock it in case there is something offensive being written that I can't read.

[Stig]

I'll translate:
How convenient for 'homo-organization COC, who supported the idea'

[CrossLOPER]

ITT homophobia.

[Adrian II]

I'd appreciate it if we kept the discussion of a contentious issue like this one in English.

Otherwise I'll have to lock it in case there is something offensive being written that I can't read.There hasn't been, rest assured.

But the original post was mistaken in that the mayor opposed the float until he was given assurances by parents that they would accompany their children on it.

Nothing wrong with that. If 16-year-old heterosexual kids are allowed to 'flaunt their stuff' under parental guidance in (school) disco's, tv programs and other public spaces, why shouldn't gay kids do the same, provided they have parental guidance as well?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Thank you, Adrian and Stig.

I didn't think what had been written was bad, just that if people replied in Dutch I wouldn't be sure where the conversation was going.

:bow:

[BDC]

Well you wouldn't be too keen to take your 14 year old daughter on a boat with a bunch of nearly naked straight men would you? Even if you were there.

[Fragony]

Nothing wrong with that. If 16-year-old heterosexual kids are allowed to 'flaunt their stuff' under parental guidance in (school) disco's, tv programs and other public spaces, why shouldn't gay kids do the same, provided they have parental guidance as well?

Firstly because they are 11, if you tell them they are borderline they will also believe it. If these kids are gay they will eventually be sure of that, but not at the age of 11. It's not a stage that is provided for them here, they are pushed into a certain direction, and lets not forget the sexually explicite nature of these gay-parade events.

And sorry BG.

[Watchman]

Well you wouldn't be too keen to take your 14 year old daughter on a boat with a bunch of nearly naked straight men would you? Even if you were there.
I wonder if I should tell you about public saunas in Finland...?

[Watchman]

Firstly because they are 11, if you tell them they are borderline they will also believe it. If these kids are gay they will eventually be sure of that, but not at the age of 11. It's not a stage that is provided for them here, they are pushed into a certain direction, and lets not forget the sexually explicite nature of these gay-parade events.Should I get started on the creepy sexually explicit input for example young girls get daily from the media ?

[Adrian II]

(..) lets not forget the sexually explicite nature of these gay-parade events.Have you watched MTV lately? Quite explicit, though only in a heterosexual way. Never, ever in a homosexual way.
Unthinkable! :dizzy2:

[Kralizec]

I wouldn't let my 11 year old kids (if I had any) join the gay parade.
For that matter, I wouldn't let them visit a strip joint either.

If it's ok with the parents, I don't see any real problem.

[Fragony]

Have you watched MTV lately? Quite explicit, though only in a heterosexual way. Never, ever in a homosexual way.
Unthinkable! :dizzy2:

As long as there are no lolita's there this isn't a very good comparison.

[Watchman]

As long as there are no lolita's there this isn't a very good comparison.Do you quite understand what kinds of models and images are being fed to girls at an impressionable age here...? Or the effects thereof ?

[Fragony]

Do you quite understand what kinds of models and images are being fed to girls at an impressionable age here...? Or the effects thereof ?

I don't watch tv, but I don't see how it is relevant here, if these models and images being fed to girls at an impressionable age told them they were really boys in a girls body, only then it would have been.

[Watchman]

I don't watch TV either. Don't even own one actually. But out on the street I see girls barely into their teens trying to pass themselves for Paris Hilton, and think "eghhhh". :inquisitive:

I've been told Britney Spears' dance moves also look pretty darn creepy when quite skillfully imitated by an eight-year-old girl beaming with quite innocent pride over her ability.

Get the point now ? Sociologists and other analysts don't use funny concepts like "oversexualized commercial culture" and "saturation of sexual imagery in media and everyday life" just because.

Giving kids hints of how to deal with their possibly divergent sexual orientation doesn't compare even remotely.

[Fragony]

I see what you are saying and it belongs in a different thread. The people that are behind this thing do not inform these kids of their sexuality, they tell them what they are, when it can't be clear at this point what exactly they are. It is very much possible that these kids are gay, it could also very well be a stage, these people simply can't know, by allowing extremily young kids to events like this is nothing more then playing with their heads and forcing them into a direction.

[Watchman]

And if that isn't "their direction", how long do you figure they're going to bother going that way ?

And besides, what do you think they actually gay kids have to go through growing up in a heteronormative society ? At least these days homosexuality isn't criminalized or defined as a psychiatric disorder in civilized countries anymore.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yeah, I think the kids can figure it out for themselves. People brought up in the south still realize they are gay, and that has to be far more influential than a parade.

[Kralizec]

The gay parade is, of course, the best opportunity for prepubescent kids to explore their sexuality :rolleyes:

[Adrian II]

Good grief, can we cut the provincialism here? These parades are just a lot of fun. They are far more innocent than outsiders think, and they don't have the sort of sordid aftermath that you get after so-called 'healthy' public occasions. There are more drunken brawls and sexual assaults on any given night than after a gay parade.

[Vuk]

Your rank homophobia has been duly noted.

Personally I very much doubt if you can "make" someone to be gay, which seems to be what is being suggested here. Rather, if there's reason to assume the kids have homosexual leanings isn't it just a good thing to properly inform them about the ins and outs of it before they hit the really troublesome puberty stage ? The ones who then really do swing that way ought to then end up more comfortable with themselves, sparing the world a fair lot of unnecessary teen angst, whereas those whose ambivalency ultimately leans more on the "straight" side come off with a better understanding of the matter and otherwise go about their lives in the normal fashion.

But really, I'd like to have a bit more hard information to go by about this whole topic. What's this "boat" talk mean in practice anyway ? Who are these "they" who "know [these kids] are gay" ? The children themselves ? Their parents ? Child psychiatrists ? Who ?

The lack of any and all real data provided on what's this really all about and the relevant circumstances and actors has thus far been fairly complete, by what I can see. And I dunno about you, but I dislike fumbling around in the dark.

Watchman...you are the very definition of hard core leftist liberal.

First of all, homophobia means fear of sodomites, I dear say that he is not afraid of them.

Second of all, kids don't need to learn that stuff. Popular culture likes to portray the "Dark Ages" and the US Wild West as a time of unequivical violence, oppression, and disorder. While all three were more promanent than they were in most times, our "enlightend" society today is a hundred times worse. In the "Wild West", remembered as probably the most corrupt, and violent time in U.S. and possibly world history, people never had to worry about the stuff that they do today. There were hardly any rape cases at all through the whole history of the Wild West (not even with prostitues). (The main reason for that is because when a family member of the victim and the whole community found out what happened, they would hunt down and kill the rapists: thus, hardly any rape.) While there was a lot of violence (similar in magnitude to today's gang wars), it was not dirrected toward the weak, old, young, or toward women in most cases. Also, it (Usually) was a lot more honorable than say, today's gang wars.
Why do we have it off so bad today? Why is our society more corrupt than it has ever been in the history of the world? A good answer: What we teach our children. They are the future of society, and what we teach them (and don't teach them) has the largest single factor on what society will be like. Why do kids need to know stuff like that? It isn't legal to do it till you are 16, so why get them thinking like that? If we want a noble, healthy, safe society we should teach our children noble, healthy, and safe things. It is not a question of gays, but of wether we should be exposing our kids to ANY sexual lifestyles! Not saying lock 'em up and never let 'em hear the word :daisy:, but why make a huge event of sex when they are not old enough to have sex? If you grow a kid up on sex, he will live for sex and all else will be a backround process. If you grow a kid up on good morals, than he/she will grow up as good citizens and sex can be a way of showing love/recreation, not life. When you train society to live for sex and violence, you breed rapists.

[Orb]

Vuk, homophobia is now generally used to mean 'hatred of sodomites'. I know it's literally fear of, but that's not how it's used.

I'll support much of the rest of your post with a quote from Apocalypse Now:

"We train young men to drop fire on people, but their officers won't let them write **** on their planes because it's obscene!"

[Stig]

It isn't legal to do it till you are 16, so why get them thinking like that? If we want a noble, healthy, safe society we should teach our children noble, healthy, and safe things. It is not a question of gays, but of wether we should be exposing our kids to ANY sexual lifestyles! Not saying lock 'em up and never let 'em hear the word :daisy:, but why make a huge event of sex when they are not old enough to have sex?
When did you have sex education?
Here in Holland it starts when you're about 13 years old
When did you start going out?
Here in Holland it starts when you're about 15 years old
What is the legal drinking age?
16
Did that stop me from drinking when I was 15?
No
I was 17 at some point, my girlfriend from back then was 16, does that make me a paedophil?
In theory yes, but seriously

[Tribesman]

There were hardly any rape cases at all through the whole history of the Wild West (not even with prostitues). (The main reason for that is because when a family member of the victim and the whole community found out what happened, they would hunt down and kill the rapists: thus, hardly any rape.)
What a pile of manure Vuk .
yeh everyone would hunt down the rapist and string them up because thats what would happen on the really rare occasion that something that occurs throughout history would dare to show up in the wild west .:dizzy2:
Alternatively you could rape a prostitute , burn down the brothel and get away with it by getting your lawyer to say you were sleepwalking since a nice young man from a respectable family would never do such things if he was awake .


As long as there are no lolita's there this isn't a very good comparison.
How old was that French girl who sang about a taxi driver ?

[Vuk]

When did you have sex education?
Here in Holland it starts when you're about 13 years old
When did you start going out?
Here in Holland it starts when you're about 15 years old
What is the legal drinking age?
16
Did that stop me from drinking when I was 15?
No
I was 17 at some point, my girlfriend from back then was 16, does that make me a paedophil?
In theory yes, but seriously


13 year old children shouldn't be getting sex ed. Innocent minds do not need that crap.





What a pile of manure Vuk .
yeh everyone would hunt down the rapist and string them up because thats what would happen on the really rare occasion that something that occurs throughout history would dare to show up in the wild west .:dizzy2:
Alternatively you could rape a prostitute , burn down the brothel and get away with it by getting your lawyer to say you were sleepwalking since a nice young man from a respectable family would never do such things if he was awake .


How old was that French girl who sang about a taxi driver ?


The type of responce I've come to expect from one such as youself Tribesman. Let that suffice.

[Vuk]

Vuk, homophobia is now generally used to mean 'hatred of sodomites'. I know it's literally fear of, but that's not how it's used.

I'll support much of the rest of your post with a quote from Apocalypse Now:

"We train young men to drop fire on people, but their officers won't let them write **** on their planes because it's obscene!"

Just because others misuse the word, he should not.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hydrophobia is used to refer to molecules having a chemical aversion to water. What makes you think homophobia has to refer to fear?

[ajaxfetish]

13 year old children shouldn't be getting sex ed. Innocent minds do not need that crap.
Why is sex ed crap? Should everyone have to learn about sex entirely through trial and error (i.e. the school of hard knocks :inquisitive: )? If sex ed is of value, when should it be taught? After many kids have already started having sex?

And I'd be very interested to hear some support for your claims about the wild west besides movies starring John Wayne.

Ajax

[Tribesman]

The type of responce I've come to expect from one such as youself Tribesman. Let that suffice.

Interesting . You have learnt to expect tripe to be called tripe . Congratulations
So Vuk , like Ajax says have you any data that might just possibly suggest that your claim is not of the total nonsense variety ?



13 year old children shouldn't be getting sex ed. Innocent minds do not need that crap.

Definately away with the fairies on that one .:dizzy2:
Unless of course you live in a strange world where puberty doesn't happen until you reach the legal age of majority .

[Samurai Waki]

As far as I know in the Ol' West rape was fairly common place, as there was plenty of hiding space for roaming Brigands and not enough manpower to have any decent sort of enforcement. Hell, even Law Enforcement would get in on the act sometimes, just because nobody could stop them. Thats why vigilantism became especially ubiquitous in Montana and such places, the Law was every bit as bad as the Criminal. A lot of innocent people probably died because of hear say, just so that an angry mob could be appeased. The Wild West was definantly not a friendly place in any respect to the word.

[Stig]

13 year old children shouldn't be getting sex ed. Innocent minds do not need that crap.
Innocent at 13? We were already thinking of it when at primary school. Besides if I don't get sex ed before the sex itself how on earth am I to know that I should use a condom and all those sorts of things.

[Major Robert Dump]

When I was 11 I thought was gay because I had the hots for Whoopi Goldberg, then I found out she was a chic and was like "whew!"

[Fisherking]

Whoopi?

I think such a thing points more toward general psychosis than toward any particular sexual proclivity. Humm…and what might one think of sheep? Just a bad joke

As for sexed if we feel it is better for Jr. to find out in class than from the older guys no big deal. But what is the need to teach them about sexual practices that do not lead to reproduction?

If we take it farther than that then it is not education exactly but more political indoctrination. The child will make up his or her own mind much more clearly with out someone nudging them in a particular direction. People who say it is needed would to me have some sort of agenda.

[Soulforged]

This sick or what?
The best way to test your impartiality in this case (and your patience I believe) is to ask yourself the same question in the inverse situation. If your worries are not biased towards homophobia the answer should be clearer than water.

Just in case: the inverse situation would be a boat for straights.

[Tribesman]

But what is the need to teach them about sexual practices that do not lead to reproduction?

Well I could go the simple route and mention contraception since the aim of that is to not lead to reproduction .
Instead I shall take the Slick Willie approach , a blow job isn't sex is it since the intern cannot get pregnant .

But of course I am well out of date on the issue of sex education nowadays , do they have lessons in oral stimulation ?
Back in my day it was simple . Sex is something that you will learn about when you are married , if not you will burn in hell .
Though of course in my opinion it was the bolloxes that would lock people up as mentally deficient if they had not followed the guidelines , use the offspring as slave abour or sell them on to the highest bidder who would burn in hell .
But hey you cannot beat them good old time values can you . Oh how I wish it was just like that today . Just like in the old old wild but not so wild and thouroughly moralistically upstanding west .

BTW Vuk any luck with finding 19th Century American sex crime figures yet ?
You might perhaps have come across the case I mentioned as an example .
Though of course theat would be too easy . perahps the debates on the abolishion of the death penalty for rape might give you an insight about " this horrible scurge that is sweeping our great nation and its territories" or "the abandonment of faith and morals in the west that is a great threat to the nation the churches and our Lords natural order" .

Or perhaps you knew you were talking tripe in the first place but just thought you would throw it in there for a laugh

[Del Arroyo]

Look, there are good and bad gay people, just like there are good and bad straight people.

As far as the converse, no, I don't think I would be particularly thrilled with my (hypothetical) eleven year old children of either gender participating in a sexually explicit parade of any sort. Like, say, Carnaval in Rio. No, no kiddies there, thank you.

[Ser Clegane]

gay people are basically guilty until proven innocent

"Guilty" of what?

[Del Arroyo]

"Guilty" of what?

Used here as a metaphor. What I am saying is that for me gay people are more than normally untrustworthy.

[Ser Clegane]

gay people are more than normally untrustworthy.
I'm still not sure if I understand your position - untrustworthy, how? And why?

[Tribesman]

Used here as a metaphor. What I am saying is that for me gay people are more than normally untrustworthy.
Absolute bollox , perhaps the issue here might be your own sexuality .
Hmmmm feeling slightly haggard about poofs eh ?

[Del Arroyo]

Absolute bollox , perhaps the issue here might be your own sexuality .
Hmmmm feeling slightly haggard about poofs eh ?

Not particularly. It's only that they tend to have characteristic psychological and emotional issues which go beyond mere sexuality. So do straight people, but their issues are more like my own, so I can relate better.

[Stig]

Why can't we trust gay people?
Will they go and start suicide bombing as well? Will they fly planes into high buildings? Will they start ganging up and rob people?

[Tribesman]

OK Del thats clearer .

[ajaxfetish]

As for sexed if we feel it is better for Jr. to find out in class than from the older guys no big deal. But what is the need to teach them about sexual practices that do not lead to reproduction?

If we take it farther than that then it is not education exactly but more political indoctrination. The child will make up his or her own mind much more clearly with out someone nudging them in a particular direction. People who say it is needed would to me have some sort of agenda.
Because reproduction is not the only effect of sex on society. Besides the points Tribesman brought up, think about STD's for example. They're not only dangerous to couples engaging in heterosexual sex.

Ajax

[AntiochusIII]

Reading this thread makes me want to go gay and join the party just to piss the homophobes off; but, you see, I don't find men's butt and the weapon in the front very interesting. :help:

Can anyone give me a sex change so I can be a girl and go gay with that?

[Louis VI the Fat]

How many movies, books, what not aren't there about thirteen year old heterosexual kids falling in love for the first time, stealing a kiss, taking a quick peek at each other?
Our society is full of 14, 15, 16 year olds exploring their straight sexuality.

Yet, when some non-hetero teens take their first tentative steps towards a sex life everybody is all over it? They can't have a sex-life? Unlike straight kids they must wait or something? Gah, I say!

Go kids and I hope they meet some attractive significant others during their cruise with which to explore their emerging sexuality with - preferably right there and then on the boat.

[Prince of the Poodles]

Look, there are good and bad gay people, just like there are good and bad straight people. But my personal experiences have led me to the conclusion that gay people are basically guilty until proven innocent.

gay people are more than normally untrustworthy.

You really know how to make a person feel like ****.

What the hell? Is this allowed?

How does someone's sexuality affect.... well, anything but who they are attracted to? :dizzy2:



And let me say that putting some kids on the "gay" boat or whatever the original poster was refering to isnt going to make them gay, because no one can be made gay. You are or you arent.

[Fisherking]

There are loads of oddballs in this world, and being homosexual doesn't have any bearing on weirdness. Who the heck cares about someone else's sexual habits unless someone is coming on to you…then make your choice.

I will say that I see trying to recruit young boys and tell them they are gay is a matter of self interest and trying to expand the pool of potential partners.


Now just for Tribesman: I will say that Ancient Ireland may have had the most liberated and healthy views of sex I have read about anywhere…before the Church got there anyway.

[Banquo's Ghost]

You really know how to make a person feel like ****.

What the hell? Is this allowed?

How does someone's sexuality affect.... well, anything but who they are attracted to? :dizzy2:
.

Del Arroyo was expressing his viewpoint. You will notice that Ser Clegane was asking for clarification.

It's allowed so far because whilst a generalisation (and in my view without merit) Del is entitled to express his views as long as he doesn't step over the line of deliberate insult.

Some may think he has - I guess we're trying to allow him to speak for himself and others to challenge those views. We try not to censor if it can be avoided, and the language used so far, whilst controversial, is not entirely inflammatory.

[Prince of the Poodles]

Look, there are good and bad black people, just like there are good and bad white people. But my personal experiences have led me to the conclusion that black people are basically guilty until proven innocent.

black people are more than normally untrustworthy.

Would such statements be allowed on this board? I dont see much difference.

(Sorry to push the issue, but sometimes you just have to stand up for yourself.. even on a gaming forum)

[Adrian II]

Go kids and I hope they meet some attractive significant others during their cruise with which to explore their emerging sexuality with - preferably right there and then on the boat.Well put, consigliere. Speaking of which, one of my first 'experiences' occurred on a boat when I was 15. Very, um, inspiring. It wasn't part of a parade, but it sure felt as if I was at the centre of one. ~D

[Husar]

How does someone's sexuality affect.... well, anything but who they are attracted to? :dizzy2:
Theoretically that is the way it is, but there are quite a few gay guys which behave a bit "girlish" making their sexual orientation obvious. Since that effectively makes them different from straight men and stand out in the crowd, it easily leads to generalisations and stereotypes of which I cannot tell whether they're true since so far I haven't come along anyone of whom I know that he is gay and does not behave like this.

Just my observation so far.

[Vuk]

As far as I know in the Ol' West rape was fairly common place, as there was plenty of hiding space for roaming Brigands and not enough manpower to have any decent sort of enforcement. Hell, even Law Enforcement would get in on the act sometimes, just because nobody could stop them. Thats why vigilantism became especially ubiquitous in Montana and such places, the Law was every bit as bad as the Criminal. A lot of innocent people probably died because of hear say, just so that an angry mob could be appeased. The Wild West was definantly not a friendly place in any respect to the word.


Read "The Myth of Violence in the Old West". It is an article by Roger McGrath. Though I have read quite a bit on the subject, this I must say, sums it up the best.

It was because of the lack of unified, un-corrupt, effective law enforcement that so many killings happened in the old west. People couldn't exploit the law system and get away with rape. They knew that if they raped a woman they would be hunted down and killed by her loved ones. You obviously don't know you history well, because rape was considered one of the big no-no's. Usually even the most corrupt criminals would never do it because they knew the consequences. That doesn't only apply to rape however, but in most cases crime against women at all. The Pinkertons were the only ones who dared go after another man's loved one (and they did it often as a method of terror), but most people (not even ruthless killers) would not mess with women. Once you have studied the history of the era a bit, please post with your thoughts. Till then, it probably would be best not to post of which you do not know. ;)
Cheers,
Vuk


*Sees Tribesman's fingers fly across keyboard as he googles up*

[Sasaki Kojiro]

As I learned from watching deadwood, there wasn't a lot of rape in the west because most of the women were whores.

I don't know how this tangent got started, but city life is bound to be different.

[Vuk]

As I learned from watching deadwood, there wasn't a lot of rape in the west because most of the women were whores.

I don't know how this tangent got started, but city life is bound to be different.

That is untrue and disrespectfull. A movie like deadwood is hardly something to base your opinion on...you might as well base it on what you see on Star Wars...they would be just as relevant...

[AntiochusIII]

That is untrue and disrespectfull. A movie like deadwood is hardly something to base your opinion on...you might as well base it on what you see on Star Wars...they would be just as relevant...It's actually based on more truth than you think: the vast majority of the earlier immigrants moving Westward (the oh-so romanticized "Wild West") were men. Very, very few were women. There was also a stigma against girl cowboys, miners, and women taking "men's jobs" early on. The only "lucky few" are the married ones, and the rest were either seamstresses or prostitutes: they had no other viable occupation choices, really.

And your claim that vigilantism somehow reduces crime is dubious; I'd rather have a link to see if you don't mind. Historical examples point towards the opposite.

In any case, how the hell does the Wild West has anything to do with gay partaaay (woohoo!) which is the topic? Unless I missed a Brokeback Mountain reference somewhere earlier?

[Tribesman]

*Sees Tribesman's fingers fly across keyboard as he googles up*
No need to google Vuk , you are talking rubbish .
Plain and simple .


Though I have read quite a bit on the subject, this I must say, sums it up the best.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

People couldn't exploit the law system and get away with rape.
Don't you think the case of the sleepwalking murdering arsonist rapist would be a good example of exploiting the law system .~:doh:
Though you might have a point about some people not being able to "exploit" the law system over rape , little things like the hostility over the abolishion in some states and territories of the death penalty meaning suspects would be dragged form jail or the court be mobs ad lynched without any due process , or even dragged out from prison after sentance to recieve some alternative justice .

[Papewaio]

That is untrue and disrespectfull. A movie like deadwood is hardly something to base your opinion on...you might as well base it on what you see on Star Wars...they would be just as relevant...

What, wookie kissing?

[Fragony]

The best way to test your impartiality in this case (and your patience I believe) is to ask yourself the same question in the inverse situation. If your worries are not biased towards homophobia the answer should be clearer than water.

Just in case: the inverse situation would be a boat for straights.

Ironically enough that is on queensday :beam:

It isn't the gay parade that bothers me, they can shake it all they want. What bothers is that homosexual organisations force their will on 11 year olds, who will listen to adults when these tell them what they are, when it's a great uncertainty that this is actually so. If they are gay they will find out, this is not the way. The organisation that supports this, was also a active supporter of the pedo-party, do consider that as well.

[GoreBag]

Hydrophobia is used to refer to molecules having a chemical aversion to water.

As far as I know, Hydrophobia is the aversion to ingestion of fluids because of the pain caused by the infection in the throat of creatures assailed by rabies. I've never heard of it being applied to chemical aversion to water, but it would most certainly be done allegorically.


What makes you think homophobia has to refer to fear?

Heh. Etymology?

"Those damn gays!"
"Those damn homophobes!"

This thread is hilarious.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

As far as I know, Hydrophobia is the aversion to ingestion of fluids because of the pain caused by the infection in the throat of creatures assailed by rabies. I've never heard of it being applied to chemical aversion to water, but it would most certainly be done allegorically.

No, hydrophobia is definitely the technical term for molecules which, due to their non-polar nature, have an aversion to water. Hydrophilia is the inverse.

Hydrophobia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophobe)

[GoreBag]

Like I said, it's being applied to chemistry allegorically.

[Vuk]

And let me say that putting some kids on the "gay" boat or whatever the original poster was refering to isnt going to make them gay, because no one can be made gay. You are or you arent.

Wrong. That is one of the reasons I dislike the prison system. One of my best friends in highschool commited a crime that was punished with time in prison. He had a girlfriend and was always talking about naked women. He was on the football team and was kinda a whore, but he was as straight as you can get. He went to prison and was raped by homosexuals countless times and when he got out his mind was warpped. He is in jail now for molesting a little boy. That is also one of the reasons I devoted my life to criminal research. Don't tell me that someone can't be made gay. All they need is to have their minds twisted and go insain, like my friend, or to have a gay rolemodel they look up to, or to have their family and friends want them to be, or to think it is kewl, or enlightened, or whatever. People can to be made gay.

[AntiochusIII]

Wrong. That is one of the reasons I dislike the prison system. One of my best friends in highschool commited a crime that was punished with time in prison. He had a girlfriend and was always talking about naked women. He was on the football team and was kinda a whore, but he was as straight as you can get. He went to prison and was raped by homosexuals countless times and when he got out his mind was warpped. He is in jail now for molesting a little boy. That is also one of the reasons I devoted my life to criminal research. Don't tell me that someone can't be made gay. All they need is to have their minds twisted and go insain, like my friend, or to have a gay rolemodel they look up to, or to have their family and friends want them to be, or to think it is kewl, or enlightened, or whatever. People can to be made gay.You do realize, of course, that "one of my best friends..." is one of the most committed BS tactic in the entire Interweb, bar none.

"I have a gay brother, but!"

"I have a Mexican best friend, but!"

"My mother-in-law is a Muslim, but!"

...

And just to mention, Prince of the Poodles identify himself here as a homosexual. I think he is a far stronger authority in what actually goes on inside "those evilz gays" (yeah...) head than you or many of us here are.

[Del Arroyo]

And just to mention, Prince of the Poodles identify himself here as a homosexual. I think he is a far stronger authority in what actually goes on inside "those evilz gays" (yeah...) head than you or many of us here are.

Well, we have him on the record here taking exagerated offense to something that should be common sense. Who cares if people don't trust you because you're gay? If you set one foot outside this country people won't trust you because you're a gringo...

[Prince of the Poodles]

Wrong. That is one of the reasons I dislike the prison system. One of my best friends in highschool commited a crime that was punished with time in prison. He had a girlfriend and was always talking about naked women. He was on the football team and was kinda a whore, but he was as straight as you can get. He went to prison and was raped by homosexuals countless times and when he got out his mind was warpped. He is in jail now for molesting a little boy. That is also one of the reasons I devoted my life to criminal research. Don't tell me that someone can't be made gay. All they need is to have their minds twisted and go insain, like my friend, or to have a gay rolemodel they look up to, or to have their family and friends want them to be, or to think it is kewl, or enlightened, or whatever. People can to be made gay.

Homosexuality can be practiced in many situations by people who are not actually homosexuals.

In prison, for example, homosexuality is practiced as both a forced alternative for women and as a dominance mechanism. I would hypothesize that 90-95% of people who either willingly or forcefully committed homosexual acts in prison still retained their hetero preference after being released.

Thats not to say there arent gay people in prison, but those who are straight when they go in are straight when they come out, regardless of what they did in desperation.

As for your friend, his recent issues with paedophilia indicate far deeper pathological and/or psychological issues that have nothing to do with prison.


Again, a person cannot be turned into a homosexual. People, in situations of duress, can commit homosexual acts, but that does not change their fundamental preference.

If people's sexuality could be changed, why has homosexuality persisted throughout the ages, until recently being a criminal offence in even Western Society? Do you think its fun being ostracized from most of society?

We live in an undoubtedly straight society. If sexuality was subject to influence, where are all these gay people coming from?

[GoreBag]

Do you think its fun being ostracized from most of society?

Eh, you get by.

[Tribesman]

If you set one foot outside this country people won't trust you because you're a gringo...
Hmmmm ........ is that a very very big country you live in or a very small world ?
Alternatively is that a big victim complex you have ?

[Prince of the Poodles]

Well, we have him on the record here taking exagerated offense to something that should be common sense. Who cares if people don't trust you because you're gay? If you set one foot outside this country people won't trust you because you're a gringo...

Common sense? How is what you said common sense? It might be common, but there is no sense in it whatsoever. :shame:

[mystic brew]

Well, we have him on the record here taking exagerated offense to something that should be common sense. Who cares if people don't trust you because you're gay? If you set one foot outside this country people won't trust you because you're a gringo...
Whether this is true or not...
I remember my grandparents saying "you can't trust all these blacks" when they emigrated to the UK.
This is textbook racism.

gay people are more than normally untrustworthy
is just as much of a fallacy as saying all american's/blacks are untrustworthy.

Just because you think this is 'common sense' don't make it so.

[Husar]

We live in an undoubtedly straight society.
I think an undoubtedly gay society would cease to exist sooner or later due to a lack of reproduction. So I'm actually happy that we have a straight society.~;)

[PanzerJaeger]

I think an undoubtedly gay society would cease to exist sooner or later due to a lack of reproduction. So I'm actually happy that we have a straight society.~;)

Lol, me too.

Vuk essentially asserted that environment can change a person's sexuality, which I dont agree with.

Conversely, if you were plucked from your home and put in the heart of the Castro district in San Francisco and forced to live with nothing but gay people, it wouldnt cause you to change your preference would it?

[Bijo]

It has to be both genetic and social, methinks. I'm no doctor, or scientist, or something like that.... but seriously, when observing I'd think they both have a lot of influence, and also influence on each other.

If the brain is in a certain way "homosexual", the person might behave in this way and with that influence his/her environment to behave in a certain way. And then the chain of action/reaction goes on, back and forth.

It might also be that the person grew up in a particular homosexual society, which altered (or became the basis of) the ideas in the head. In that case the genetic thing (being heterosexual) would seem to be dominated by social influence. However, it might be that the person's genetics "fight" this social influence.
There could be many examples, probably.

*yawn* Well, that's my :2cents: anyway.

[Adrian II]

Hmmmm ........ is that a very very big country you live in or a very small world?~D Siggable stuff again, you old drunk.

[Goofball]

Wrong. That is one of the reasons I dislike the prison system. One of my best friends in highschool commited a crime that was punished with time in prison. He had a girlfriend and was always talking about naked women. He was on the football team and was kinda a whore, but he was as straight as you can get. He went to prison and was raped by homosexuals countless times and when he got out his mind was warpped. He is in jail now for molesting a little boy. That is also one of the reasons I devoted my life to criminal research.

I suggest you need to do a little more research.

He wasn't "made gay," he was made into a rapist.

Rape has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with control and power and violence.

All your "friend" is doing is trying to get a little payback. If he wasn't gay before he went to prison, then he isn't now.


Don't tell me that someone can't be made gay. All they need is to have their minds twisted and go insain, like my friend, or to have a gay rolemodel they look up to, or to have their family and friends want them to be, or to think it is kewl, or enlightened, or whatever. People can to be made gay.

So, gay = insane?

[Tribesman]

I suggest you need to do a little more research.

You don't say , I thought that would have been obvious when he came up with this little gem........



violent time in U.S. and possibly world history, people never had to worry about the stuff that they do today. There were hardly any rape cases at all through the whole history of the Wild West (not even with prostitues). (The main reason for that is because when a family member of the victim and the whole community found out what happened, they would hunt down and kill the rapists: thus, hardly any rape.) :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


I devoted my life to criminal research.:dizzy2:
Perhaps its been a short life or possibly hardly any devotion at all .

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's one of them annoying foreigners posting a hilarious video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiy5-GZ-HPQ) in a language you don't understand.


(forget about it if you don't get it. It's too funny to not post in this thread but it won't work in translation. Also, this will help me evade that instaban as some subtleties of the French language will hopefully be lost on Banquo. ~;) )

[Adrian II]

It's one of them annoying foreigners posting a hilarious video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiy5-GZ-HPQ) in a language you don't understand.


(forget about it if you don't get it. It's too funny to not post in this thread but it won't work in translation. Also, this will help me evade that instaban as some subtleties of the French language will hopefully be lost on Banquo. ~;) )Man, that stuff must be ten years old. Farmer walks with a zimmer frame these days. Of course the frame leaves her behind uncovered. ~D

[Louis VI the Fat]

Farmer walks with a zimmer frame these days. :furious3:

Mylène is immortal and her divine hotness is forever. :book:

You can check that behind for yourself if you copy-past 'L'Amour n'est rien - Mylène Farmer' into YouTube. It's from last year, she's forty-five in that video. ~:eek:

[KukriKhan]

Older woman singing French to me in a whispery, playful, girl voice... rendre heureux this old man. :)

(She could be reciting the Montreal phone book, for all I care).

However, let us go easy on the innuendo, english or otherwise, oui?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I have no idea who that is, but she needs to move over. (http://www.ryoni.com/babes/alizee_jen_ai_marre.html)

I do wish that more British female singers would adopt her 'taking her clothes off' video dynamic, however.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have no idea who that is, but she needs to move over. (http://www.ryoni.com/babes/alizee_jen_ai_marre.html)It's so funny that you should come up with Alizée here. 'She' is Mylène Farmer, a huge artist here, for some twenty years. By coincidence, she and Laurent Boutonnat write and produce all the songs of Alizée.

Alizée is impossibly beautiful, but she's also the pretty face Mylène needed as one of her projects. In your video, Alizée innocently sings about taking a nice hot bath, playing with her little fish a bit.
Mylène on the other hand released a music video of herself fully naked having a lesbian threesome in a bathtub.



I do wish that more British female singers would adopt her 'taking her clothes off' video dynamic, however.Oh, if only Kukri wouldn't be keeping such a close watch I would so link to that bathtub orgy for you. ~;)

I'll suffice with hinting at that fish Alizée sings about in your video. Just like poor innocent Alizée, I'll let you guess what double-meaning Mylène had in mind when she made Alizée sing about being playful with her 'poisson'. The whole song is both childlike innocent and outrageously obscene. (hey don't ban me, I didn't link to it...)

Ah, Mylène Farmer is the greatest post-feminist poet alive. :sweetheart:

At least now you know why Alizée has that goldfish embroided on her behind in your video, and why she sensually wiggles about so much when she turns around to show it.

[Pannonian]

For the benefit for English monolinguists who may wish to learn French, here are some translations (http://www.mf-international.com/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=f93bd771ac180bce529df444a2d7837c) of Alizee's songs, complete with the original paroles plus footnotes on where the translater had to choose between literal or interpretive translations. A worthy academic project, I must say.


It was said it couldn't be done. It was said it shouldn't be tried. People laughed. People scorned. People quit. I quit. But no song will ever get the best of me!

So I present to you what I think is the definitive Moi...Lolita translation.

[Del Arroyo]

What's common sense is that we trust people less who are different from us. If you disagree with this statement, you simply haven't gotten around enough.

Whenever you're in a situation where you don't fit in, sometimes it's their fault, sometimes it's your fault, but either way you have to deal with it. A victim's attitude is a losing attitude, except in court.

[Ser Clegane]

There is quite a difference between saying that it is common sense (actually "common knowledge" would be the term that would be applicable in this context) that people put less trust into people who are different, and saying that it is common sense that a specific group is untrustworthy.

The first describes the current situation, the latter justifies it.

Apart from that I would rather say that generally not trusting anybody who is different is an indication that you "haven't gotten around enough" to be more open-minded towards people who are "different"

[Del Arroyo]

In four years since high school I've spent total one outside the country and one in San Francisco. I speak Spanish and Arabic fluently, not in the American sense, but rather in the European sense, which means I actually can and do use them regularly. But this isn't a dick-measuring contest so really I've got nothing else to say.