UFOs what are they and why are they ignored?

[Fisherking]

And now for some lighter fare…maybe?

I may regret this in about 12 seconds…….

People all over the world are seeing something but what are they and where do they come from. Communists and Capitalists alike report seeing strange objects in the sky. Even Presidents have seen them.

Continuing to pretend that they don't exist is like ignoring the elephant in the livingroom.
Odd things have been discussed throughout human existence, they crop up perhaps in the bible and in much older records, they have been portrayed in medieval and renasance paintings, described in Irish tails and by American Indians. People have reported them from all the world over and serious science continues to ignore them, but that doesn't change the fact that something is there.

I am not obsessed with the subject but I do wonder why it is so ignored.
I unfortunately saw one in daylight but very near to sunset. What I saw was not a trick of swampgas or any trick of light. If I could have explained it as imaginings or a trick on the eyes then I would not be writing this.

It was brief but not so brief as to not see details. I hadn't seen one before the encounter and haven't seen one since. Nor did I want or expect to see what I saw. But enough preamble and on to what I saw.

The year was 1967 and it was a clear summer late afternoon, the sun had not gone down in the west but the east was beginning to have that deep velvet blue of dusk. Yes and no mind altering or intoxicating substances were being imbibed. We were travailing in a car at about 40MPH toward a small town, the town I lived nearest to in fact and I was very familiar with the terrain and surroundings. When it came into our view it was moving very slowly across the top of a grove of trees, the only trees in an agricultural area. The trees were perhaps 40 feet tall with one single house nearby. We were several hundred yards away and the driver slowed…a bit of shock I guess. The TV antenna from the house was visible at a level below the object. It continued to move in an easterly direction and once clear of the trees dropped to an altitude of only about 12 feet. It appeared to be about 35 feet long and disk shaped. It was made of what appeared to be made of a silvery metallic substance with some small dark round ports above the centreline but it gave off a blue radiance that seemed to engulf the craft. It crossed the road in front of the house and crossed a deep weeded ditch between the road and a railroad track embankment. The railroad embankment was rather higher than all of the surrounding land, being perhaps 25 feet high. There the object stopped for a moment and slowly elevated its forward end to about a 35° to 40° angle. When it did this I noticed that it was not disk shaped as I had first thought but was actually a rather sleek and rounded triangular shape. It just sat hovering at that angle for a moment. Then the glowing field sounding it began to change to a green then orangish and suddenly it shot away at fantastic speed, it was just a streak of light. It curved to the south and made a radical turn to the east and was out of sight in only a couple of seconds. I clearly saw it pass over the lights of a city that I knew was over 35 miles away and the altitude of the object was several thousands of feet before it was out of its curve. I would estimate its overall dimensions as about 4 to 5 feet wide at the nose to about 15 feet wide at the rear and about 30 to 35 feet in length. It seemed to be only 6 to 7 feet in the height of it body. It was therefore much smaller than almost any airplane in the area and certainly was no biplane crop-duster.

In summery what I saw was a craft of unknown origins which looked and behaved like nothing I have any other familiarity with.

I don't know who was driving, who holds the title, where it came from or where it was going, but it would be cool to have one in the driveway.

More than 3/4ths of the population believe in or have seen these sorts of things…but what the heck are they and who owns them? Are they a government secrete or little green guys or what?

Now the tough part for some of you guys…………..Any THOUGHTS?
and I mean real ones.

[Goofball]

*crickets*

[drone]

*crickets*
Hey, don't look at me. Where I live, the black helicopters can get to my house in about 3 minutes.... :creep:

[Tuuvi]

I think the reason nobody cares about UFO's is because people are already preocuppied with all the crazy stuff that has been going on lately.

[Louis VI the Fat]

*crickets*

Hey, don't look at me. Where I live, the black helicopters can get to my house in about 3 minutes.... :creep:That's right Drone. I think Goofball doesn't quite understand the gravity of the matter. Up in Canada they simply don't have the same amount of aliens arriving illegally. :no:

[Vladimir]

Hey, don't look at me. Where I live, the black helicopters can get to my house in about 3 minutes.... :creep:

3 minutes? Black helicopters come from Fort Campbell.

[Orb]

Israel and Syria have possibly considered negotiating secretly.

That strikes me as far wierder than daft flying things.

Honestly, my main point about UFOs isn't denying that they exist, but just that I don't care if they do.

[Vladimir]

If you like UFO related stuff, listen to Coast to Coast AM. It's on in the early AM, on AM.

[Ironside]

Well to do some analysis of what those aliens have been doing.
Firstly, they seem awfully fond of driving up anal probes in people and then simply drop them back to earth (and they seem to have changed physical appearence since the middle ages).
It's far more easier to kidnap people and preform all physical experiments on them and thier decendants. We humans usually doesn't capture new lab rats everytime we need them.
Second, they have the technology not to be seen by radar, flying several light years etc. and is still stupid enough to drive around and get seen all the time, disrupting the natural behavior of the specimens they're studying.

Conclution: If they're aliens out there studying us, they don't seem to do a very good job.

[Fisherking]

If you like UFO related stuff, listen to Coast to Coast AM. It's on in the early AM, on AM.

Thanks Vlad but I am in Europe, do they have an English language affiliate you know of in Germany?

I posted the story because everyone seems to have opinions (theirs or some they heard and liked) on a wide range of topics. Some may have no opinion on this at all but it could be an opportunity to think about things in a different way.

I am most curious as to why it seems to be so forcefully ignored.

Do you think we might be someone else's science experiment?

[macsen rufus]

I am most curious as to why it seems to be so forcefully ignored.


Simple: 99% of sightings are by obvious liars, frauds and fruitbats. The other 1% are easily tarred with the same brush. Bear in mind the reliability of eyewitnesses generally (most people can't accurately recall the colour of a car in a crash on their own doorstep etc etc) IMHO what isn't down to hallucination or misinterpretation is probably due to secret military developments.

Having said that I did see (along with a second party) something wierd once, a light floating along in the sky, not explainable by plane, helicopter or satellite theories - silent, erratic motion, in dead calm weather.... never figured it out, but we did report it to the local UFO hunters.....

[Fisherking]

Simple: 99% of sightings are by obvious liars, frauds and fruitbats. The other 1% are easily tarred with the same brush....(my edit)... IMHO what isn't down to hallucination or misinterpretation is probably due to secret military developments.

Having said that I did see (along with a second party) something wierd once, a light floating along in the sky, not explainable by plane, helicopter or satellite theories - silent, erratic motion, in dead calm weather.... never figured it out, but we did report it to the local UFO hunters.....

I would tend to disagree that most are liars, but agree that most are afraid of being tarred with that brush…at least in the west.

I do believe it was brave of you to admit to a sighting in this particular venue however.
There must be some reason other than mass insanity why most believe that there is something there.

[rory_20_uk]

The description of UFO ships and aliens has altered through the years. Either they are playing with us, there are lots of different ones, or people see different things depending on the development of the era.

I would think that many ones which aren't a trick of the light etc are some planes that are bieng tested and are kept secret.

Until problems are sorted out on this planet I think that things should be focused here. That includes the lack of exploration in the sea depths / rainforest / soil before sending satelites to mars.

~:smoking:

[BDC]

People see stuff all the time, humans are programmed to recognise things without really looking. Hence why :) looks like a face, when it is just two dots and a curve. Plus there are a whole lot of ill people around, then you throw in the military flying around a bit in remote areas, and a 'mystery' is waiting to happen.

[Vladimir]

Thanks Vlad but I am in Europe, do they have an English language affiliate you know of in Germany?

I posted the story because everyone seems to have opinions (theirs or some they heard and liked) on a wide range of topics. Some may have no opinion on this at all but it could be an opportunity to think about things in a different way.

I am most curious as to why it seems to be so forcefully ignored.

Do you think we might be someone else's science experiment?

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/info/wheretolisten.html

That's the web site. They used to have a shortwave station but last time I heard about that was over a decade ago (maybe two). They’ve interviewed David Darling, a UK astrobiologist before so they do have an international reach. Regardless, it seems like the entire program is available at their web site, I'm sure commercials are included.

Personally I'm not too impressed with the new host. Too much weird/improbable UFO stuff and it's not as heavy on the science as it used to be. There used to be more variety to the program too. There may still be but I don't listen to it often. Art Bell was a much better host and it seemed like he went more into the mysteries of the Earth and universe without being so, spaced out.

[KafirChobee]

Wellll, the entire population of MexicoCity witnessed UFOs a few years back, lots of video footage as I recall. Anyone that has seen footage of the event has the option to dismiss it as an elaberate hoax perpetrated by geniouses with access to a multiple variety of laser equipment and such (skys btw were fairly clear of clouds, but is always smog there), or come up with their own explanation. The Mexican government went with the "no comment" for their explanation. So, maybe the Mexican AirForce is much more advanced than ours (and hiding the fact 'til they invade us :beam: ), or there really do exist craft from other areas of our solar system interested in us - they must be pretty disappointed by now, one would think.

Did have my own experience, but was young (8 or 9) and suppose it could have been a weather ballon as my Grandmother said (she didn't see it), that made a 90degree manuever and shot away at such increadible speed that we (my cousin saw it with me) lost sight of it in a matter of seconds. This was in Southern Illinois (56' or 57' ?) - we were looking to see if we could spot "Sputnik". When we told Gram we had, she said it was the wrong time and night to see it.

Doubt nothing, and question everything.:inquisitive:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

3 minutes? Black helicopters come from Fort Campbell.

Christians In Action are headquartered in Langley, VA only a few miles from Fairfax. The color of any helicopters they may or may not have has not been publicly disclosed. If you are made aware of that color, they may have to kill you -- and that creates annoying paperwork.


:devilish:

[Vladimir]

Christians In Action are headquartered in Langley, VA only a few miles from Fairfax. The color of any helicopters they may or may not have has not been publicly disclosed. If you are made aware of that color, they may have to kill you -- and that creates annoying paperwork.


:devilish:

Yes and soon their missionaries will be at your doorstep with a choice. Do you take the Red pill, or the Blue one? :evil:


The whole black helicopter thing is a different but slightly related topic. My dad used to talk about them, and I would just look at him :inquisitive: . It made me happy when I saw them constantly flying over Campbell. Go Nightstalkers! :army:

[Fisherking]

Yes and soon their missionaries will be at your doorstep with a choice. Do you take the Red pill, or the Blue one? :evil:


The whole black helicopter thing is a different but slightly related topic. My dad used to talk about them, and I would just look at him :inquisitive: . It made me happy when I saw them constantly flying over Campbell. Go Nightstalkers! :army:

That is a lot different you know. I have seen lots of odd aircraft parked in places where they shouldn't be and very odd aircraft flying around doing weird things…I even saw about a battalion of Marines supposed to be building a baseball field take a year to do it but never actually saw any work being done…just hummers parked in the woodline.

What the Government does or pretends to do is baffling and can cause a great deal of angst.

It is possible that now these things (UFOs) are black projects of the US government but I don't think the ones that showed up in Renaissance paintings were.

[Adrian II]

I am most curious as to why it seems to be so forcefully ignored.

Do you think we might be someone else's science experiment?I think you just provided the answer to your own question. Because of the huge amount of speculation on the part of 'believers' (some of it outright stupid or paranoid) it becomes very tempting to dismiss both the entire UFO crowd and all of the registered observations as mass hysteria.

A UFO is just that: an unidentified flying object. If UFO-watchers were to respect this basic disctinction, stick to it and discard the stories about greens, grays and related (proven) hoaxes, they might be taken more seriously.

[Bijo]

About those paintings:

There have been people educated in this art and its history, etc., who say that those "UFOs" depicted in paintings are merely "symbols" to symbolize divinity or something like that (but I forgot where it was). They say it has nothing to do with UFOs the way we think about them.

But then again.... it doesn't take a genius to figure out the shape of those things. Symbols or not: they certainly look like 'em.

(Btw, this link's got some nice stuff: http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml)

Makes me think... If they are used in these paintings to portray divinity, is it so that aliens are our "Gods"? :P

Vessels of angels, the Church, this and that, I just dunno.

[Fisherking]

I think you just provided the answer to your own question. Because of the huge amount of speculation on the part of 'believers' (some of it outright stupid or paranoid) it becomes very tempting to dismiss both the entire UFO crowd and all of the registered observations as mass hysteria.

A UFO is just that: an unidentified flying object. If UFO-watchers were to respect this basic disctinction, stick to it and discard the stories about greens, grays and related (proven) hoaxes, they might be taken more seriously.

I asked that from the stand point of our oldest religious texts and stories coming out of Summer.

The UFO thing was taken fairly seriously in the 1940s and early 1950s until governments began to sponsor debunking efforts. Making fun of something that you can't explain is a frequent small minded tactic.

Why should UFOs be discredited by fraud more than say archaeology which has had many hoaxes and frauds perpetrated, usually by scholars rather then a couple of easily detected photo frauds.

As to UFO watcher, they may be their own worst enemies, but there are radicals and extremists in practically every field of human endeavour.

I just wonder why most people believe in them but most are afraid to be tarred by the few who would explain everything as swamp gas and weather balloons. It isn't to hard to see that someone has a stake in people keeping their mouths shut.

There were mass sighting in the US in the 1950s to include the ones over the Whitehouse…and aircraft were scrambled…that is when the government decided that they didn't exist. I could care less what they are…I just get a little galled by them denying what they know to be true, and a bit by those so ready to except obvious lies.

[Vladimir]

Well the spike in "sightings" from the 40s and 50s is most clearly from the advancements in avation at the time. Those Germans brought back a lot of new technology. Along with the flying wing and an actual flying saucer that was built, a great many people had no idea what they were seeing.

[Fisherking]

I guess there was a big UFO (Air Ships) flap back in the 1880 & 1890s
I remember in the 1970 some town in Texas (which was named to the Historical Register) was celebrating some anniversary of a UFO crash there about that time. LOL one story went that the Army showed up and took what was left of the craft. I know it was said to have gotten wide spread newspaper coverage at the time…but I don't remember the name of the place


October 1969, Jimmy Carter said he saw a UFO. During his election campaign of 1976, he told reporters: “It was the darndest thing I’ve ever seen. It was big, it was very bright, it changed colors and it was about the size of the moon. … We watched it for 10 minutes, but none of us could figure out what it was. One thing’s for sure, I’ll never make fun of people who say they’ve seen unidentified objects in the sky.”


Ronald Reagan’s sighting occurred in 1974, when he was flying aboard a Cessna Citation as governor of California. He told the story to a Wall Street Journal reporter, and his pilot, Bull Paynter, provided additional details. What started out as a white light over Bakersfield, maybe several hundred yards away from the plane, began to “elongate” as it accelerated away at a 45-degree angle. According to Paynter, “The UFO went from a normal cruise speed to a fantastic speed – instantly.”


There have been reports that Neil Armstrong and Edwin “Buzz” Aldrin saw UFOs shortly after their historic landing on the moon in Apollo 11 on July 21, 1969. Also, on a Science Channel show, Aldrin said that on the third day after leaving Earth – two days before the moon landing – the entire crew saw and filmed a UFO.


Maj. Gordon Cooper was one of the original Mercury astronauts and the last American to fly in space alone. On May 15, 1963, during the last of his 22 orbits around the world, Cooper told the tracking station near Perth, Australia that he could see a glowing, greenish object ahead of him quickly approaching his capsule.

John Lennon saw a UFO with his personal secretary, May Pang, in New York on Aug. 23, 1974. As Pang recounts in her book, the “large, circular object (was) coming towards us. It was shaped like a flattened cone and on top was a large, brilliant red light. … When it came a little closer, we could make out a row or circle of white lights that ran around the entire rim of the craft.”

In 1492, Christopher Columbus and Pedro Gutierrez, while on the deck of the Santa Maria , observed, “a light glimmering at a great distance.” It vanished and reappeared several times during the night, moving up and down “in sudden and passing gleams.”


"In the year 22 of the 3rd month of winter, sixth hour of the day... the scribes of the House of Life found it was a circle of fire that was coming in the sky... It had no head, the breath of its mouth had a foul odor. Its body one rod long and one rod wide. It had no voice. Their hearts became confused through it; then they laid themselves on their bellies... they went to the Pharaoh... to report it. His Majesty ordered...
[an examination of] all which is written in the papyrus rolls of the House of life. His majesty was meditating upon what happened. Now after some days had passed, these things became more numerous in the skies than ever. They shone more in the sky than the brightness of the sun, and extended to the limits of four supports of the heavens... Powerful was the position of the fire circles. The army of the Pharaoh looked on with him in their midst. It was after supper. Thereupon, these fire circles ascended higher in the sky towards the south... The Pharaoh caused incense to be brought to make peace on the hearth... and what happened was ordered by the Pharaoh to be written in the annals of the House of life... so that it be remembered for ever."

"[216 B.C.] Things like ships were seen in the sky over Italy... At Arpi (180 Roman miles, east of Rome, in Apulia) a 'round shield' was seen in the sky... At Capua, the sky was all on fire, and one saw figures like ships...

[99 B.C.] When C. Murius and L. Valerius were consuls, in Tarquinia, there fell in different places... a thing like a flaming torch, and it came suddenly from the sky. Towards sunset, a round object like a globe, or round or circular shield took its path in the sky, from west to east.

[90 B.C.] In the territory of Spoletium (65 Roman miles north of Rome, in Umbria) a globe of fire, of golden colour, fell to the earth, gyrating. It then seemed to increase in size, rose from the earth, and ascended into the sky, where it obscured the disc of the sun, with its brilliance. It revolved towards the eastern quadrant of the sky.

edit for readability

[Adrian II]

There were mass sighting in the US in the 1950s to include the ones over the Whitehouse…and aircraft were scrambled…that is when the government decided that they didn't exist.Well, there you go again - lots of empty claims instead of facts.

There were no 'mass sightings' of UFO's over the White House in 1952. There were unexplained radar blips at Andrews air base and a handful of people reported seeing fast-moving blue-ish or orange lights in the air. Harry Truman himself demanded to know what was going on. The Air Force's best efforts led to the 'temperature inversion' hypothesis: a layer of hot air in between two colder layers had diverted radar signals from objects on the ground, making them look like aircraft. It was a hot clear day, after all, and the phenomenon was known to radar personnel in the D.C. area.

Not entirely satisfying, you say? Then why don't you come up with a better explanation instead of suggesting some government conspiracy?

By the way, if you want to believe in a government conspiracy at all costs, I suggest you adopt the inverse conspiracy. It is clearly in the goverment's interest to encourage citizens to regard all sightings of military experiments, reconnaissance flights and other top-secret operations as UFO's.

Who'da thunk, eh? :mellow:

EDIT

Oh, and here is another nice one.

Wellll, the entire population of MexicoCity witnessed UFOs a few years back, lots of video footage as I recall.The entire population? You mean there is some video footage of the July 11, 1991, solar eclipse above Mexico City showing what looked to some untrained observers as a 'spaceship'. In reality, it was Venus passing in front of the sun at the exact same moment as the moon. At magnitude -4.46, which made its image unusually clear and sharply defined. The Mexican astronomical community was delighted with the beautiful sighting of this planet above their capital.

But of course some of the footage has to be compiled into an idiotic video by a couple of greedy imbeciles -- Lee and Brit Elders to be precise, a pair who believe in conversations with the dead, stellar messages for mankind, and assorted nonsense -- and presented as 'undeniable evidence' of a UFO above MC.

Instead of asking why so many people deny the 'evidence', we should rather ask ourselves why so many people are prepared to believe such utter crap.

SECOND EDIT

And for good measure, here's your Roswell incident (http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html)for you.

[Vladimir]

October 1969, Jimmy Carter said he saw a UFO. During his election campaign of 1976, he told reporters: “It was the darndest thing I’ve ever seen. It was big, it was very bright, it changed colors and it was about the size of the moon. … We watched it for 10 minutes, but none of us could figure out what it was. One thing’s for sure, I’ll never make fun of people who say they’ve seen unidentified objects in the sky.”


FYI, it was Venus. :wall: :dizzy2:

[KafirChobee]

Adrian, out of curiousity I searched "MexicoCity UFO sightings" on Google. The incident I mentioned was on 24June05, not the 1991 sighting you alluded to.

Further, one of the curious things about trying to research some of the sightings is I can't access the films or pictures for many of them - except in the debunk files. Which also maybe because of my internet settings (security), but why then does it note that those depicting numerous sources of a said sighting (s) no longer exist or are no longer available?

fyi: http://www.ufoinfo.com/sightings/mexico.shtml

That pesky planet Venus has been very busy, in Mexico and else where..

http://www.rense.com

What was it Fox Mulder use to say? I want to believe? Maybe not, but with such a variety of "odd" balls from Astronauts to farmers tp Presidents claiming sightings of craft not accountable on our little planet .... one might consider keeping an open mind.

Still, when one does consider the time factor for such a craft to transverse space to reach this wee rock in the universe ... it does give one pause about the number of these sightings; and the why, wherefore, or reason for them.

[Adrian II]

Maybe not, but with such a variety of "odd" balls from Astronauts to farmers tp Presidents claiming sightings of craft not accountable on our little planet .... one might consider keeping an open mind.You are right. Of course I ask myself these questions, too. Why do superior civilisations have to communicate through crop circles? Why do millions of astronomers who study the universe day and night never spot them, but thousands of drooling illiterates do? Or why is it that aliens always abduct, you know, really ugly people?
:mellow:

[caravel]

"Caravel has seen them - For him it began one lost night on a lonely country road, looking for a short-cut that he never found. It began with a closed deserted diner...and a man too long without sleep to continue his journey. It began with the landing of a craft from another galaxy. Now, Caravel knows the Invaders are here, that they have taken human form. Somehow he must convince a disbelieving world that the nightmare has already begun."

[Hosakawa Tito]

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/179.gif

Who you calling ugly, Dike Boy.~;)

[Adrian II]

Who you calling ugly, Dike Boy.~;)The King excluded, of course. Did you know there were already Renaissance sightings of Elvis?

https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8255/rembrandtnightwatchlt6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Hosakawa Tito]

Good one.:laugh4:
I'm sure we can find him in the quatrains somewhere.

[Adrian II]

Good one.:laugh4:
I'm sure we can find him in the quatrains somewhere.Why, in the Song of Solomon, my friend! For in 5:11 it is written:


His countenance is like the finest gold;
His locks are bushy, black as a raven

[Hosakawa Tito]

Why, in the Song of Solomon, my friend! For in 5:11 it is written:


His countenance is like the finest gold;
His locks are bushy, black as a raven

Found it. An interpretation

1st Century 22nd Quatrain:

With wild gyrations the hound dog would become King.
That which will live by poisonous alchemy,
it's artifice will come to be fatally injured.
For Graceland, he of the shining gauntlet,
and the progeny; hail and ice will cause much evil.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The King excluded, of course. Did you know there were already Renaissance sightings of Elvis?

https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8255/rembrandtnightwatchlt6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Trying to divert attention away from the aliens, are we? Making a mockery of it hey? Hoping to fool us with misinformation and photoshopped pictures are we not?

We all know that painting of an alien sighting isn't from the renaissance - Rembrandt is Baroque. Can I hear you say oops AII?

Also, why do you remain silent about the Rembrandt Code?
That radiant girl in the lower left quadrant is an alien. Rembrandt knew this, some of his informed contemporaries knew. We know. Just look at that light she radiates - radioactive anyone? Huh, huh? Yes Adrian. And I don't buy what the 'official' art history tries to make us believe about Rembrandt just being playful with light here.

Now also, when you cut her out and paste her into the bottom right, you clearly see she fits in there exactly. Behind the drum and to the right of the dog. That's where she's supposed to go. That's another clear message from the painter. The dog is barking at her, his hair standing upright, because animals know....
They're more sensitive than us. Rembrandt knew this, but had to be afraid of being to open about it. They would never have allowed him to say openly what he knew. Even as is, they bankrupted him and poisened his wife, because they were afraid of him putting exactly these sort of messages into his work.

And there's more, much more, for those willing to see. But I guess you don't. What you're trying to cover up here Adrian? You work for a newspaper right? National isn't it? Got any...agenda? Government grants? Corporations?

I'll be keeping a close eye on you mate...:cool2:

[Fisherking]

Well, there you go again - lots of empty claims instead of facts.

Not entirely satisfying, you say? Then why don't you come up with a better explanation instead of suggesting some government conspiracy?

By the way, if you want to believe in a government conspiracy at all costs, I suggest you adopt the inverse conspiracy. It is clearly in the goverment's interest to encourage citizens to regard all sightings of military experiments, reconnaissance flights and other top-secret operations as UFO's.

Who'da thunk, eh? :mellow:



Why should UFOs be discredited by fraud more than say archaeology which has had many hoaxes and frauds perpetrated, usually by scholars rather then a couple of easily detected photo frauds.

Bernard Haisch, astrophysicist, UFOSkeptic.org

“I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism. If a competent witness reports having seen something tens of degrees of arc in size (as happens) and the scoffer -- who of course was not there -- offers Venus or a high altitude weather balloon as an explanation, the requirement of extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim falls on the proffered negative claim as well. That kind of approach is also pseudo-science. Moreover just being a scientist confers neither necessary expertise nor sufficient knowledge. (I wish it did, sigh.) Any scientist who has not read a few serious books and articles presenting actual UFO evidence should out of intellectual honesty refrain from making scientific pronouncements. To look at the evidence and go away unconvinced is one thing. To not look at the evidence and be convinced against it nonetheless is another. That is not science.”


Bernard Haisch, physicist, “Be Skeptical of the Skeptics”

“Cut through the ridicule and search for factual information in most of the skeptical commentary and one is usually left with nothing. This is not surprising. After all, how can one rationally object to a call for scientific examination of evidence? Be skeptical of the "skeptics."”


Bernard Haisch, “UFOs and Mainstream Science”

“A 1977 poll of American astronomers, published in JSE, showed the following. Out of 2611 questionnaires 1356 were returned. In response to whether the UFO problem deserved further study the replies were: 23% certainly, 30% probably, 27% percent possibly, 17% probably not, 3% certainly not. Interestingly, there was a positive correlation between the amount of reading done on the subject and the opinion that further study was in order…”

“Most scientists never look at UFO evidence, which leads to their conclusion that there is no evidence…”

“It seems from my unique vantage point as both scientist and editor of JSE that substantial evidence exists of "something going on".”


not it establishes a causal relationship between the observations and extraterrestrial life. However, it is only through ignorance or pomposity that one can say no evidence exists.”


John Alexander, NIDS, “Refuting Fermi: No Evidence for Extraterrestrial Life?”

“The undeniable reality is that there are a substantial number of multi-sensor UFO cases backed by thousands of credible witnesses. In the physical domain there are many photos, videos, radar tracking, satellite sensor reports, landing traces including depressions and anomalous residual radiation, electromagnetic interference, and confirmed physiological effects. Personal observations have been made both day and night, often under excellent visibility with some at close range. Included are reports from multiple independent witnesses to the same event. Psychological testing of some observers has confirmed their mentally competence. Why is none of this considered evidence?

There are over 3000 cases reported by pilots, some of which include interference with flight controls. On numerous occasions air traffic controllers and other radar operators have noted unexplained objects on their scopes. So too have several astronomers and other competent scientists reported their personal observations. Many military officials from several countries have confirmed multi-sensor observations of UFOs. The most senior air defense officers of Russia, Brazil, Belgium and recently a former Chief of Naval Operations in Chile all have stated that UFOs are real. These cases and comments are a miniscule fraction of the total body of evidence.

Of course they do not constitute irrefutable proof. However, to state there is no evidence suggestive of intelligent extraterrestrial life simply belies the facts. Decades in duration and global in nature, there are too many hard sensor data-points and millions of eyewitnesses to ignore. We certainly can debate the significance of specific data and question whether or not it establishes a causal relationship between the observations and extraterrestrial life. However, it is only through ignorance or pomposity that one can say no evidence exists.”


Lord Hill-Norton, Chief of Defense Staff, Ministry of Defense, Great Britain (1971-73);
”The evidence that there are objects which have been seen in our atmosphere, and even on terra firma, that cannot be accounted for either as man-made objects or as any physical force or effect known to our scientists seems to me to be overwhelming… A very large number of sightings have been vouched for by persons whose credentials seem to me unimpeachable. It is striking that so many have been trained observers, such as police officers and airline or military pilots. Their observations have in many instances—though by no menas a majority—been supported by technical means such as radar or, even more convincingly, by visible evidence of the condition of the observers or –and this is common to many events---interference with electrical apparatus of one sort or another…. It is difficult to credit that they have all been either lying or hallucinating.
From the earliest days of the modern outbreak of sightings some forty years ago, there is a quite remarkable similarity between the descriptions given by observers of the flying vehicles. It is the more remarkable that there have been tens of thousands of these reports, from observers who range who range from illiterate peasants in Argentina and Spain to people with Ph.D.s in other countries and they have all been given spontaneously—which has led to the generic term “flying saucer.” It must be more than a coincidence….
“There have been thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of sightings and encounters, physical results and of the latter, by people all over the world whose evidence on any other subject would be accepted without question. There have been major investigations lasting thirty or forty years by the governments of the USA, Russia and France, for certain, and probably Britain and other countries. At the end of it all—today—we have no hard official information to weigh against some hundreds of books on the subject by private individuals or groups of individuals.”


Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter, first Director of the CIA (1947-50), NICAP board member

"Unknown objects are operating under intelligent control... It is imperative that we learn where UFOs come from and what their purpose is... " (Maccabee, Bruce, "What The Admiral Knew: UFO, MJ-12 and R. Hillenkoetter," International UFO Reporter, Nov./Dec., 1986.)

"It is time for the truth to be brought out in open Congressional hearings. Behind the scenes high ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense." (Statement in a NICAP news release, February 27, 1960.)



Sorry I don't have one or parts I might mail you. Any way you would have a great deal of difficulty knowing where they came from.

There is no lake of evidence that something is being seen. What they are is a matter of conjecture but the determined lack of study and the vocal scoffing by those determined to remain ignorant is the puzzling part.:smash:

[Banquo's Ghost]

There is no lake of evidence that something is being seen. What they are is a matter of conjecture but the determined lack of study and the vocal scoffing by those determined to remain ignorant is the puzzling part.:smash:


We're back to the Leprechaun argument again. :no:

Actually, Fisherking old fruit, what's puzzling is that a fellow who can so robustly reject the scientific consensus on climate change is so forcefully advocating little green men. :grin2:

Personally, I have several stories to tell about strange things I have seen, but have no need to invent elaborate fantasies of extraterrestrial origin or government conspiracy to explain them. Usually reference to my local barman, the Garda and the night before is enough explanation.

[Fisherking]

Oddly enough I don't see my self as arguing that global warming is not real…I just see a need for open debate on its causes and effects. I have never seen little green men and don't have the slightest idea who may be controlling unidentified craft and I am sorry if you got that idea.

I feel no need to invent anything new unless there might be some cash involved, nor do I feel a need to be a martyr for some lost cause, or a stand out for the ladies.

This is more a subject that seemed to appeal to me in a moment of disgust and futility involved in talking politics and religion…not that this is so different, but it is a change with a few new names.

I would rather not think of this as a conspiracy. I know there was a think tank report in the 1960 that feared that if everyone knew there were space aliens that they would abandon religion. I don't know how valid such an opinion is but it may be the grounds for some of this.

I don't hunt these things and it is only of mild interest, even though I related that I saw one.

I would be perfectly happy if they (governments) just said, yes something is there and we don't know what they are, but we will keep an eye on it and see if we can figure it out.

Instead most official explanations are perhaps more difficult to believe that what people report seeing.

I am not looking for an explanation for a mostly unstudied phenomenon so much as why people think they are safer ignored.

In the meantime I would appreciate it if you would ask your pet Leprechaun to stop flying his air cart about frightening people. :wink:

[Adrian II]

Bernard Haisch, “UFOs and Mainstream Science”

“It seems from my unique vantage point as both scientist and editor of JSE that substantial evidence exists of "something going on".”Sorry, but 'something going on' doesn't sound like science to me. And a website (http://www.ufoevidence.org/NewSite/Papers/UFOQuotes.htm)with a hodgepodge of quotes doesn't tell me anything new either.

@ Hosakawa Tito: You're a devil in disguise (oh yes, you are). :laugh4:

@ Consigliere Luigi: Come on, we all know what the girl is doing down there in the dark, and why the drummer looks so absent-minded...

[Fragony]

They are ignored for a reason, if we knew what they were it would be Known Flying Critters, in short KFC and Kentucky fried chicken would never allow that.

[Fisherking]

Sorry, but 'something going on' doesn't sound like science to me. And a website (http://www.ufoevidence.org/NewSite/Papers/UFOQuotes.htm)with a hodgepodge of quotes doesn't tell me anything new either.

@ Hosakawa Tito: You're a devil in disguise (oh yes, you are). :laugh4:

@ Consigliere Luigi: Come on, we all know what the girl is doing down there in the dark, and why the drummer looks so absent-minded...

http://www.ufoevidence.org/

http://www.etcontact.net/feature/MexicanAirForce.htm

Start here…as I said I find it mildly interesting but I don't devote much time to it…none other than this week actually.

I don't see why seeing something in the sky leads to little green men, I have no experience with that aspect of this phenomenon and am not seeking any.

As hard as it may be to believe I am mainly interested in just what the title of this thread says.

I am not saying you have no right to be sceptical of many reports…but there are also more than just a few by very credible people with nothing to gain from what they saw/claim to have seen.

[Ironside]

Fisherking, I'm curious on what you think those aliens are up to anyway? What's thier pupose of travelling here and getting seen all the time?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Oddly enough I don't see my self as arguing that global warming is not real…I just see a need for open debate on its causes and effects. I have never seen little green men and don't have the slightest idea who may be controlling unidentified craft and I am sorry if you got that idea.

Fair enough - I was just being mischeivous. :bounce:



This is more a subject that seemed to appeal to me in a moment of disgust and futility involved in talking politics and religion…not that this is so different, but it is a change with a few new names.

It's a good topic, and certainly a change from the usual fare. I think you've made a really positive impact since you've joined the Backroom, so I should apologise for ribbing you over-much.


I am not looking for an explanation for a mostly unstudied phenomenon so much as why people think they are safer ignored.

I think what most respondents are saying is that because of their "unidentified" nature, it is impossible to seek an explanation of any real use. Witness sightings of anything are notoriously unreliable, and there is a preponderance of so-called witnesses that fall into the category so eloquently described as "drooling illiterates" by Adrian II.

The Leprechaun argument is one that is usually employed by advocates of religion. In other words, I have seen a leprechaun, and believe they exist. You can't prove they don't exist so my inability to give you evidence that they do exist apparently means our claims have equal validity.

One cannot realistically conduct one's life on the basis of all the fantasies that might exist but cannot be demonstrated. Thus, people largely ignore UFOs as an irrelevant phenomenon.


In the meantime I would appreciate it if you would ask your pet Leprechaun to stop flying his air cart about frightening people. :wink:

Hey, if he was my personal leprechaun, I'd be a lot richer than I am now and Ireland would have won the rugby. It's Tribesman's leprechaun that goes around frightening people - himself doesn't have a stash of gold, but of laughing smileys. :wink:

[Adrian II]

http://www.ufoevidence.org/

http://www.etcontact.net/feature/MexicanAirForce.htm

Start here…as I said I find it mildly interesting but I don't devote much time to it…none other than this week actually.Fisherking, I appreciate your dogged pursuit of the matter and I don't want to ridicule your legitimate concerns. It's just that I am not really interested, and for a reason. Since I was a schoolboy I have been reading, on and off, on just about all of the earth's 'unsolved mysteries' -- from UFO's through Erich von Däniken's astronaut-Gods and fake-moonlandings right down to Uri Geller's bent spoons and the Bermuda Triangle -- and I have found them all to be far short of mysterious. So unless you have something truly new and sensational (not sensationalist) to report, I will skip those sites and get on with my life. No offense, but I feel I have been there, done that, and worn the T-shirt to shreds.

[English assassin]

I agree that if you want weird you had better stay earthbound. Mankind pwns the galaxy when it comes to oddness.

But, in the spirit of making up for being mean to him about global warming, Fisherking has a pointette about the basis on which we dismiss things with no investigation. (Which is not in fact what happens with UFOs as the ministry of defences files investigating sightings have shown. But I digress.)

It can be a mistake to dismiss a phenomenon as happening just because you don't have a mechanism for it. When I was doing my biochemistry degree in the early 90's, I thought it was hilarious that people only discovered introns (a very fundamental feature of the DNA of anything big enough to see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intron) in the late seventies. That was like having the stone age a near fifteen years earlier. Well of course times move on and now its hliarious that in the early 90s we knew nothing about, say, variability of the numbers of copies of genes between animals in the same species.

My point being that there are some pretty big phenomenon literally under our noses that we have only just discovered, and no doubt more to discover. Its a mistajke to forget that. For example, I've always thought Sheldrake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake might be worth a punt, in a sort of "5% chance but what if he's right" kind of way. Likewise cold fusion and martian fossils were, properly, the subject of open minded investigation.

To me there are a few pointers for whether something is worth investigating:

(1) Occam's razor. I can't say for sure that aliens aren't hiding on the moons of Jupiter, but it does seem more likely that a UFO sighting was man made or natural

(2) Is it testable? I know, I know, here's EA with his bloody logical positivism again. What a bore. But if I can't even in principle find out if an idea is right or wrong why worry about it.

(3) Has it already been investigated and a consensus formed? If so, sorry, I can't be bothered. better minds than I have reached a view and I will gratefully adopt it until there is a REALLY strong reason not to. So cold fusion, having been investigated, is now out.

[Adrian II]

But, in the spirit of making up for being mean to him about global warming, Fisherking has a pointette about the basis on which we dismiss things with no investigation.Sorry, pointette dismissed. Many 'UFO sightings' have been thoroughly researched and, alas for Fisherking, thoroughly debunked.

Many others are just not worth the trouble. For all I care, people are free to 'investigate' pictures of lampshades on strings and stories of cavity probes on ugly Americans for their entire natural lives, but it will not add one iota to the bigger picture.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I told you so EA. Our man AII is on an agenda here. Probably gets paid by some secret government agency or some such to mock everybody willing to keep an open mind.

Tsk....:no:

[Adrian II]

I told you so EA. Our man AII is on an agenda here. Probably gets paid by some secret government agency or some such to mock everybody willing to keep an open mind.

Tsk....:no:https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4341/aliengahij0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Fisherking]

Fisherking, I'm curious on what you think those aliens are up to anyway? What's thier pupose of travelling here and getting seen all the time?

That is a good and fair question but I don't have any idea what they are. If I speculate it will be just that, a wild guess and that wouldn't help much. I am baffled by why someone or something would want to come here just to have a look and maybe a laugh. I can't understand why a government might have something this advanced and not show some even half measure of this technology to the public at large. After all these years you would think that the 1954 model might be safe to show. More than that, why hasn't some guy come forward saying that he was a flying saucer pilot when he was young…chances are he wouldn't be believed, but when did that ever stop anyone. But just because we don't know/understand the motives doesn't mean it isn't happening. We don't always understand our Wives'/Husbands' motives and we are the same species.

I suppose that if I were just picking one on plausibility and laughs I would choose the science experiment one. It might explain why they just don't shoot us and get it over with and it would prove most embarrassing to us as a species. We pretend to be so wise and all knowing but we die in only 80 to 100 years, are kept like an ant farm and can't even set up shop on our own moon…what a bunch of dolts.

*If you ever want a laugh see how many frauds scientists and researches have foisted on us and wonder a bit how many are out there as yet undetected. And I am not even talking about contradictory studies.*

One or even a few frauds don't mean there is nothing to it. It just means there are a lot of loons loose. I haven't seen too many people abandoning political parties over those same issues.

AII if you have become jaded by a fruitless search that is quite easy to understand. While more than 70% of the English speaking world, about the same in China, and who know what elsewhere it doesn't mean they are real and doesn't mean they aren’t. It will just remain unexplained.

While the numbers of scientists considering it worth study to some degree are near the general public's percentage no one seems to have coughed up the money to do a good unbiased study.

But as to the debunking, IMHO it is of as low if not lower calibre than most of the stories they seek to debunk. Both are a mixed bag at best and if the topic is at all upsetting I am sorry…some of the others were effecting me that way, that is why I posted something a bit different.


BG I had an idea what was coming before I opened this thread. But it is like any argument, it very seldom sways anyone who has already made up their mind. If I were afraid someone might disagree with me I would keep my big mouth shut.

EA I liked your post and as usual no matter which side of the argument you are on there are usually some good points to what you say.

[Ironside]

That is a good and fair question but I don't have any idea what they are. If I speculate it will be just that, a wild guess and that wouldn't help much. I am baffled by why someone or something would want to come here just to have a look and maybe a laugh. I can't understand why a government might have something this advanced and not show some even half measure of this technology to the public at large. After all these years you would think that the 1954 model might be safe to show. More than that, why hasn't some guy come forward saying that he was a flying saucer pilot when he was young…chances are he wouldn't be believed, but when did that ever stop anyone.

Meh, if you want to go into conspiracy theories, the easiest way to keep something secret is to truly separate the secret scientists from the rest of the population. Of course a project of that size would be above the capacity of the US.


But just because we don't know/understand the motives doesn't mean it isn't happening. We don't always understand our Wives'/Husbands' motives and we are the same species.

True, but there's some things you can consider about humanity. For example all decisions with consideration is based on a logical base (although it's very common that the logical base is bizarre to say the least, especially if you calculate emotions into this, but then consideration isn't needed) and all decisions have some kind of purpose (that's based on the law of everything's lazyness).
The more consideration and people involved, the more rational the decisions has to be, especially during long time periods (decades? Or millenias?). You don't run something stupid and expensive simply because your predecessor did it, and you got an easy way out of it.


I suppose that if I were just picking one on plausibility and laughs I would choose the science experiment one. It might explain why they just don't shoot us and get it over with and it would prove most embarrassing to us as a species. We pretend to be so wise and all knowing but we die in only 80 to 100 years, are kept like an ant farm and can't even set up shop on our own moon…what a bunch of dolts.


Are you considering scientiffic experiment or scientiffic observation? I make a difference to see how much you consider the aliens to have tried to influence the human population.
As a scientiffic experiment we could be a very dangeous one, making us a possible ken lao zu (I liked the translation of that in this article) (http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2006/0117/ci1-1.htm). Admittably, avoiding contact could be an attemt to prevent this, but it will create problems later on, when the information breaks (and it will, unless they kill us first).
For scientiffic observation, they are seen awfully often. I mean they must realize that their observations is affecting what they observe, affecting their results.
Now I did actually come up with something that I don't have a really good reason against.

We're a tourist attraction... Only weird part is if we've been that for several millenias (that pharo thingy).

[English assassin]

I told you so EA. Our man AII is on an agenda here. Probably gets paid by some secret government agency or some such to mock everybody willing to keep an open mind.

Tsk....:no:

He's definitely on a payroll somewhere. He'll be denying that there is a super advanced civilisation of giant squid living at the bottom of the ocean and controling our minds with microwaves next. That's what happens if you take your tin foil hat off. :yes:

The thing is, he's got this story back to front. Is the idea that aliens are landing in remote fields in Idaho and performing protocological examinations on American farmers worth investigating? No.

But is the idea that various people have seen various possibly related, possibly not, phenomenon for which we have no explanation in advance of an investigation worth investigating? I think so, and so did the UK MoD. As a result we know more about St Elmo's fire, weird temprature effects in the atmosphere, the suggestibility of witnesses, cool super secret nuclear powered stealth attack helicopters, and many other things of a decidedly terrestrial origin. I don't suppose any of it is alien but it was worth investigating.

UFOs are only not worth investigating if you assume the purpose of the investiogation is to uncover alien proctologists. If you are open minded then its just another phenomenon which may be worth someone looking into.

And more generally, assuming we are not defeated by the vast scale of the thing, looking for evidence of alien activity somewhere in the solar system strikes me as very reasonable. There is no a priori reason that there might not be von neumann machines there, and whilst it must be unlikely that we would find one, it would be such a big event that it seems reasonable to spend some resources to looking.

[Adrian II]

But is the idea that various people have seen various possibly related, possibly not, phenomenon for which we have no explanation in advance of an investigation worth investigating? I think so, and so did the UK MoD.I said so in my first post. That was before Fisherking unleashed the full proctologist treat on us.

I reserve my criticism for the assumption that your alien civ would opt to demonstrate its superior aviatory capabilities above your local ice cream parlour run by an attention-craving certified lunatic by the name of Luigi. Pardon my cynicism, it prevents me from being any clearer than this.

[Louis VI the Fat]

an attention-craving certified lunatic by the name of Luigi. 'and pompous arrogant piss'. :yes: :sweatdrop:

And darn you EA for converting me by such unfair means as reason and moderation of tone. :no:

[Reenk Roink]

Banquo, you don't believe in UFO's but you believe that the law of gravity will hold true for the future and the sun will rise tommorow? :shocked2:

:wink: :grin:

[English assassin]

Ho hum. Well, at least Luigi isn't seeing witches and getting poor old women burnt at the stake any more. It's progress, of a sort.

I'm not the first person to say it, but I reckon the rest of the galaxy is keeping very, very quiet, and hoping we won't notice it.

[Don Corleone]

I do not doubt for one moment that other civilizations far more advanced than ours exist in the cosmos. But I find myself in Ironside's camp. I do not believe they 'buzz the planet' periodically, grabbing people, abducting them, anally probing them, then putting the mojo on their memories and releasing them. Let's challenge a few of the underlying assumptions.

1) In order for another civilization to come visit, they'd have to be capable of instellar travel. The nearest star to Sol is Proxima Centauri, it's about 4 light years away. That means it takes 4 YEARS for LIGHT to get here. I'm not saying it's technically impossible. I'm trying to get folks to embrace just how high that technological hurdle is. Light takes 4 years, but these folks are going to be here in short order. Hmm.... I think not. Anybody that could make the visit to Sol would be quite advanced.

2) Any civilization that would come visit us would monitor all of our communications long before they ever approached the planet. Our radio transmissions, dating back to Marconi, have been released into the heavens for about a century now. They travel at the speed of light. So all of our radio transmission, our television signals.. they're all broadcasting out to whomever is there to listen. I cannot believe a society advanced enough to journey here wouln't take the time to monitor our communications. In doing this, they would immediately realize the psychological and sociological ramfications their 'appearance' would have on us.

3) This civilization would either place our system under quarantine (which is what I believe is happening) or they would come right out and announce themselves. The current 'little green men' theories require us to believe that a civilization capable of instellar travel wants to remain hidden but somehow, cannot. They're a bunch of bumbling idiots that are always subject to one :oops: after another... "Damn, we shouldn't have left that dismembered cow out on the road..." "Crap, I told you they'd see those crop circles" "Shoot, we've been spotted again... let's try that mind-erase-ray again... maybe this time it will work".

4) If said civilization has traveled here, monitored our communications, realizes how incredibly xenophobic and paranoid we are, and still decided to come for a visit, they're either malicious in intent or they're incredibly foolish. I tend to dismiss the latter out of hand, so let's consider the former for a minute, shall we? If they wanted to subjugate us (for what purposes, who knows... they'd already have engergy sources so powerful we could only dream of them... there's no elements that naturally occur on Earth that don't occur in other planets in our solar system). Maybe they want to eat our brains (mmmm.... I've got a nice jar of Philadelphia minister circa 1997... you bring the chianti and we'll do dinner) or maybe they want to make Jennifer Lopez their love slave. I don't know. I do know they have absolutely nothing to fear from us and we have absolutely nothing to offer them. We don't try to disguise our presence or shield our true motives from a cattle herd, why would they be skulking about? They'd show up and take what they wanted and I suspect there would be scant little we could do about it.

5) Even if I'm incorrect at 4, any military commander would tell you there's such a thing as diminished returns on reconaissance. If they keep buzzing the planet, abducting people and crash landing at Roswell, they're allowing us the chance to detect a weakness of theirs and perhaps construct some defenses against them. They'd get what info they wanted and they'd either act or move on. They wouldn't keep returning, always trying to keep their presence covert but they're never quite smart enough to remove all evidence...

I'm sorry, I just can't buy all this. I strongly suspect that scenario similar to the Prime Directive is at work. I suspect there are at least several civilizations around. They are well aware of us, and have been for some time. But they will not reveal themselves to us until we are ready for the knowledge. Until such time as we grow up enough to leave the nursery (demonstrate the capability to leave our system under our own power), we will not be contacted or visited.

[Fisherking]

Ironside Speculation aside I am not sure that UFOs come from any place but here. There are all sorts from nocturnal lights to reports of craft. I am not sure that they all fall under any one umbrella other than being unidentified.

I know a lot of people believe they are there but don't give it much thought. I don't know that little green men or grey ones are driving these things.

I wouldn't mind someone paying attention in a serious way to making a study of them.

I don't mean the professional or armature UFO organizations though. Those people eat their young! They can't agree on up and they have tarred themselves as well as anyone who uses the three letters co joined.

I think that the reports that said that if people came in contact with beings from another world they would loose their religion was a part of political debunking rather than any wide conspiracy (a failing memory here…was that the Brookings Report?). Other governments talk about them and actually conduct a few investigations. It just doesn't get picked up by our news services though.

Of course we have people saying that they are being built just outside Las Vegas too.

So if the Pilots are green or answer to the handle of Tex…or both...remains to be seen.

And to anyone interested…I never said it was a cover-up or conspiracy…just deliberate neglect so far as I can tell.

[Adrian II]

I wouldn't mind someone paying attention in a serious way to making a study of them.Oh, you mean serious attention? I see. Of course the solid testimony of the scientists involved in project Mogul to which I referred above are not 'serious', even though they explain the whole Roswell thingy to a tee. The same I suppose is true for the former Soviet space engineers who inform us that each time they launched a Kosmos satellite, large parts of Latin America began reporting UFO's within exactly one hour and five minutes after launch time. Because hey, that's hard science. We don't need hard science. What we need is serious attention.

How is it possible that people can still claim UFO's 'deserve serious study'. As if there isn't a wealth of good, solid, scientific material out there. I guess it's either plain laziness or unwillingness to look into it.

The oft-misquoted Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper discarded the investigation of past UFO claims and instead advocated a forward-looking investigation into signs of extraterrestrial presence or activity. That was a sensible approach, and such programmes have long been adopted by people with regular jobs, 24-hour observation schedules and pretty forceful computer models to back up their observations. They are called astronomers, astrophysicists and such. They are a busy lot even though, unlike Luigi, they are not serious at all.

[Fisherking]

Oh, you mean serious attention? I see. Of course the solid testimony of the scientists involved in project Mogul to which I referred above are not 'serious', even though they explain the whole Roswell thingy to a tee. The same I suppose is true for the former Soviet space engineers who inform us that each time they launched a Kosmos satellite, large parts of Latin America began reporting UFO's within exactly one hour and five minutes after launch time. Because hey, that's hard science. We don't need hard science. What we need is serious attention.

How is it possible that people can still claim UFO's 'deserve serious study'. As if there isn't a wealth of good, solid, scientific material out there. I guess it's either plain laziness or unwillingness to look into it.

The oft-misquoted Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper discarded the investigation of past UFO claims and instead advocated a forward-looking investigation into signs of extraterrestrial presence or activity. That was a sensible approach, and such programmes have long been adopted by people with regular jobs, 24-hour observation schedules and pretty forceful computer models to back up their observations. They are called astronomers, astrophysicists and such. They are a busy lot even though, unlike Luigi, they are not serious at all.

I am glad you took the Airforce explanation of that because they spent a lot of time and money on that and even nitwit reporters poked holes in at least part of it. It doesn't matter anyway as Roswell is now more urban legend and proof one way or the other is not possible as there is no longer physical evidence to support either claim.

I don't want to burst your bubble but you obviously missed the surveys of the scientists that were posted earlier that thought there was study needed. But then those are only meaningless quotes.

It is easy to take an incident such as Roswell or an obvious fraud and say nothing deserves looking at, we have all the proof we need.

So dinosaurs are a fake because someone faked the brontosaurus, and there is no missing link from man to ape and the fake proves it….right! Gorillas were thought of the same way in the past until someone stumbled on them.

I am not willing to take everything that everyone says as fact, but I am not closing my mind to the possibilities that something is there.

So you just believe we already know everything and more study is a waste of time…that’s great. We can all stay home now and watch TV.

[English assassin]

And darn you EA for converting me by such unfair means as reason and moderation of tone. :no:

Shan't happen again Sir.

FWIW I don't believe there have been any alien visitations. Or anyway, none that have been detected. Though there is always the Douglas Adams hypothesis....(ie alien teenagers anally probe farmers for a laugh) :beam:

Contrary to DC's views, I'm not at all sure there is anyone out there. I read a rather good book on planetary science about six months ago that tried to have a really good go at how many life bearing planets there might be in the galaxy. ("rare earth", I forget the authors) You start off with some pretty big numbers (how many of the right types of stars are there, in the right part of the galaxy, what percentage might have rocky planets in a stable habitable zone etc etc), so far, so much business as usual.

What was very interesting was when it came onto features of earth. This is a bit less speculatiobve, since it draws on what we understand about how planets behave from some real data in our own system. Plate tectonics, for instance, prove to be very important in avoiding a runaway greenhouse effect, and a "snowball earth" permanent ice age. The stabilisation of earths axial tilt by having a large moon turns out to be very important. Having a "jupiter" of just the right size and in just the right orbit to mop up most of the planet-busting space debris in the system. And then you come onto life itself, and the fact that it took 3 of our 4 billion years to progress from bacteria to eukaryotes, which suggests (although n=1) that that is not an easy step to bridge, and so on up to multicellular life, and multicellular intelligent life, and finally spacefaring multicellular life (which presumably means machine probes, since otherwise the distances seem unmanagable. But then, why would organic life send out such probes? What's in it for them? As this is a cultural question, though, perhaps there is no point speculating).

The overall conclusion was that life in the form of bacteria-like organisms might indeed be fairly common, but the numbers did not look good for multicellular intelligent life.

[Adrian II]

I am glad you took the Airforce explanation of that because they spent a lot of time and money on that and even nitwit reporters poked holes in at least part of it.That's exactly what is wrong with your approach, it is deeply conspiratorial. Anything that doesn't fit is designated as a cover-up, contrary evidence is the result of money changing hands and even nit-wit reporters are to be trusted more than scientists. Welcome to Lalaland.

Are you sure you actually read what I posted? We are not talking 'weather balloons', my friend, but highly sophisticated espionage balloons. And Moore is not some Airforce stooge. He was a chief scientist on the project along with Gildenberg who also published his recollections of it. Mogul was a highly secret project (centered in Alamogordo near Roswell) to float seismic balloons over the Soviet Union in order to detect nuclear blasts. Of course the authorities covered this up as best they could, with weather balloon stories and such. That's why the nit-wit reporters had a field day. The leaders of the project actually encouraged UFO stories to cover up their top-secret activities. They were delighted when the UFO-mania spread to the Soviet Union because it meant the Soviets, too, were at a loss as to what they were dealing with. It was only after they shot one down that they knew.

[Cronos Impera]

Come on, there is nothing alien about UFO's. Anyone could build one using romanian scientist's Henri Coanda research on aeronautics.It is even rumoured that there ware tests carried out by leading German scientists during WW2 and that subsequent UFO craze was just a cover-up for some more serious stuff such as espionage and unauthorised weather balloons.The problem is that it isn't cheap and very unefficiant. Every age has had it's paranormal phenomena....but is there any link between them? Yes there is,...human imagination. And Fiesherking....please don't tell the MIB's about my post....I don't want to end up on their watchlist for alien empathy....or betraying humanity :skull:

[Fisherking]

Cronos Impera : I grant you that there are technologies that could lead to these here on earth. I have not said they need be from elsewhere. I only know that people are seeing unexplained things in the sky, not all of which have explanations.

Adrian II : You keep throwing that Conspiracy thing at me, Why? I am not the one using the term and just because there is some government misinformation does not mean that The entire government machine is in on it. I understand that an agency or two might have grounds to redirect or misinform us on part of the topic. That does not mean that I think they are coordinated or conspiratorial.

That said, I do not trust everything a government agent tells me because said agent has a particular agenda which may or may not make sense but is in the interests of his department or agency. This is not a paranoid rambling, I have spent much of my life employed by a few of those agencies. Some times they lie when the truth would do them no harm at all and maybe even some good. One level of the agency may be completely at odds with the other and coordination of who is making the coffee is impossible.

I find it interesting that you ask me if I have read your posts and ask if you have read mine.

I don't dispute that many sightings are easily explained and others may be do to eye problems, but not all of them have been. Some of these could use careful study. No matter the cause, it may have something to teach us.

It has been my experience to see that at times, truth can be far more astonishing than fiction and writing something off as improbable is not always the best course.

Your vehement denial that something could be there puts me in mind of the exsmoker who wants tobacco banned from existence.

Not everything is explained by balloons, swampgas, or optical illusion, and if it ends in magnetic anomaly or even unknown craft that is ok. It does not mean that unknown craft are from outer space. It could prove that such craft are of some deeply secrete project belonging to some government, and if so I would still say we have the right to know more than what we have been told. Government secrecy is not always in the best interests of its citizens. But that doesn't mean that it is a wholesale effort by government or governments to hide these facts.

Governments have big problems with keeping almost anything a secret but if there happened to be something so secret that even most of the leadership doesn't know about it, I would say that is more reason to probe, not less.

Of course conspiracy can mean two or more people trying to foster some cause or conceal evidence of a thing so in that case any secret is most likely conspiratorial in its broadest sense.

I see a lot of smoke and unfounded accusations in your assessments of what I have said or trying to say. I am not saying it has been totally ignored or is a part of a wide spread conspiracy. But maybe I have not been clear enough…

Anyway back to my original question… Tell me why it is a bad idea that independent scientists devote time to studding what these phenomenons may be?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Banquo, you don't believe in UFO's but you believe that the law of gravity will hold true for the future and the sun will rise tommorow? :shocked2:

:wink: :grin:

Arggh. :beadyeyes2:

I've just been to deepest Cornwall for a couple of days, and so I am not sure of anything any more.

:wreck:

[Adrian II]

Adrian II : Your vehement denial that something could be there puts me in mind of the exsmoker who wants tobacco banned from existence.Quite the opposite. Just read what I said about Cooper.

[Fisherking]

When I was a kid I once saw a bird I thought looked like an ivory billed woodpecker. My mom told me it couldn't be because they were extinct. I never saw it again but they have been found in Arkansas and maybe in some other states.
http://www.ivorybill.org/


I was duck hunting with my dad once but to small to have a gun. I told him the ducks were behind us watching us from the trees. He ignored me because ducks don't land in trees. Except for Wood ducks which are what I saw and my less sceptical cousin shot when he turned to look.

I was told that giant squid were only in the movies and were not real…so those who reported them were nuts.

Conventional wisdom is not always correct. Sometimes we need to look a little more and we can find something perhaps amazing or wonderful to behold.

Explanations for UFOs have ranged from optical illusion to theories of unknown life forms living in the atmosphere. How is that so different then any other discovery or rediscovery.

Why not look?


This has made a stir in some circles…I have not had a hard look however.

UFO frenzy ignited by Air Force officer

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53841

[English assassin]

I've just been to deepest Cornwall for a couple of days, and so I am not sure of anything any more.



Cornish pasties are delicious. There's something you can be sure of.

Or are they Kernow pasties now?

[Banquo's Ghost]

This has made a stir in some circles…I have not had a hard look however.

UFO frenzy ignited by Air Force officer

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53841

You're not seriously putting forward that web article as anything worth investigating are you?

Only someone who could see the image of Jesus in a slice of toast (http://www.mrbreakfast.com/article.asp?articleid=23) could perceive a pilot figure in those "enhanced" photos.


I was duck hunting with my dad once but to small to have a gun. I told him the ducks were behind us watching us from the trees.

I'm sorry, but this tickled me. "We are being watched." :laugh4:

[Fragony]

the image of Jesus in a slice of toast (http://www.mrbreakfast.com/article.asp?articleid=23) could perceive a pilot figure in those "enhanced" photos.

hehehe, check this out BG

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/LOL.jpg

[Fisherking]

I'm sorry, but this tickled me. "We are being watched." :laugh4:Glad you like it!



LOL good frag job there….as to the site, I didn't have time to look at the videos but I understand the guy is an expert and had an unsolicited look to see if it had been faked. Supposedly he was looking with what ever high-tech whiz-bang he uses but to me they are still lights…:no:

I don't care if he found they were glowing grasshoppers actually. All I said were people were seeing something. It might be funnier if they were flying clown heads and people weren't trying to find Mother Mary piloting a UFO… Ü

I saw something just like I saw the ducks…..all I have is time so I'll just wait and see

:oops:

[Fisherking]

Okay, So what is it?

I have not identified the object but I can hardly wait to here some of the things that are going to be said…LOL





Kaliningrad UFO


http://www.kaliningrad.rfn.ru/rnews.html?id=22389&cid=7

Paul Stonehill alerted us to a recent Russian UFO story, involving a yellowish object with an elongated body. At the kaliningrad.rfn.ru website, click on the icon on the right, under the photo, to view video footage. Here is Paul's translation of the article:

A student from Kaliningrad, Russia, was able to film an unidentified flying object over Kaliningrad (Russia). The UFO-like object was sighted in the sky right over the regional center. The luminescent object hovered over General Butkov street, Kaliningrad, in the evening. The yellowish, elongated object slowly and noiselessly moved toward Pregol River. According to witnesses, some time later another object joined the UFO. Ivan Lebedev, a student, at once recognized the flying objects to be “saucers”.

He was at home, listening to music, looked in the window and saw the flying object; took his video camera and decided to film the object. The film was shown to experts. The Kaliningrad physicists-astronomers spent a long time looking at the ten minutes-long blurred video. They did not reach any definite conclusion. They have kept the video film for further research.

The date of the story is 2/16/2007.

FYI:
Koenigsberg is the former name of Kaliningrad, a city situated on the Baltic Sea coast, the farthest western corner of modern Russia. Russia’s Baltic Fleet is headquartered in Kaliningrad, where it controls naval bases at Kronshtadt and Baltiysk (Baltijsk, the old Soviet naval base in Kaliningrad, is still partly restricted; Kaliningrad was a closed town for over 45 years). Formerly the capital of the dukes of Prussia and later the capital of East Prussia, the city was ceded to the Soviet Union in 1945 under the Potsdam agreement. After all, in June of 1941 it was used as a staging ground for one of the main assault zones against Soviet Russia, and remained a very important naval base for the duration of the war. Over one hundred thousand Soviet soldiers lost their lives in the operation to take over the city, and over ninety thousand German troops were taken prisoners…
Paul Stonehill

[ShadeHonestus]

Interesting topic FK.

Whether UFOs exist isn't in question, we know they exist, but Alien UFOs is another kettle of fish.

Look at some basic facts. Consider the distance to the nearest star other than the sun is something like 4.5 light years away. The nearest planet "believed" to be inhabitable (in its relationship to its star) is something like 50 light years away. For a basic understanding of the vastness of space, the distance to the center of just our galaxy is 28,000 light years away and the universe in total has a radius of about 46 billion light years. Look at the age of the universe, 13.7 billion years old with the earliest formations taking place about 8 billion years ago. Our earth is about 4.5 billion years old and is about halfway through its life span as the sun expands and will incinerate earth in about 4billion years.

Considering all the above, take a look at E=MC2 which expresses the equivalence of mass and energy proportional to the speed of light squared. The mass of an object would increase in relation to its speed as it nears the speed of light. This means to increase to this speed a particle containing any mass would take an infinite amount of energy. But this is academic as only no mass particles like photons can travel at the speed of light.

So now take your flying saucers and consider what speeds they could achieve. In order for their travel here to be completed they would have had to be in space for a very long period of time. It almost begs the position that life evolved on their planet at the point closer to obtaining intelligence than earth, by a long ways.

Of course this is assuming life exists on other planets, evolved rapidly to intelligence, and avoided all the hazards of extinction to reach a state of technology that they could attempt a massive number of space voyages to put that technology into perfection and to locate our little corner of the universe.

The answer to many SciFi'ers, myself included, would be wormholes. However we do not know that they actually exist and in order for them to exist via our mathematical models(which is our basis for them existing) their location of appearance could not be predicted and neither would they be stable enough to last for more than a split second. Not to mention that anything of mass would most likely cease to exist upon passing into a wormhole's event horizon (not to be confused with a black holes event horizon).

Once you've digested all of this consider just three more brief points.

First, as a standard of measure the furthest space probe from earth has reached about 12 or 13 light hours distance and it took the Voyager 27 years to reach it. Compare that object's mass to those of suspected UFOs and then realize that much of voyagers propulsion was gravity.

Second, with the number of UFOs reported the number of trips by a single civilization via anything less than a wormhole would be impossible as presented by the evidence above. It seems like every year the aliens get a new model upgrade to their saucers.

Third, last, and a bit more complicated in summation is the theory of multiple histories used in quantum physics. If we look at all the possible histories that could have taken place throughout the history of the universe, then look at just the subset that resulted in us evolving on earth and compare that with the previous. Well, you get the picture how rare the evolution to intelligent life in the universe may actually be, let alone one with the time, resources, practice and technology for intergalactic travel.

:smash:

Fun topic though...

[Fisherking]

Interesting topic FK.

Whether UFOs exist isn't in question, we know they exist, but Alien UFOs is another kettle of fish.

............. universe may actually be, let alone one with the time, resources, practice and technology for intergalactic travel.

:smash:

Fun topic though...

Hay! I never said I had any idea where they came form. That's kind of what makes them unidentified…
The could come from Sears or Marks & Sparks I suppose though I have never seen one on the shelf.:whip:

[ShadeHonestus]

Hay! I never said I had any idea where they came form. That's kind of what makes them unidentified…
The could come from Sears or Marks & Sparks I suppose though I have never seen one on the shelf.:whip:


I have the Marks & Sparks model parked next to my Durango and it was given to me by the black suits with instructions to test it.

[Fisherking]

Hay, cool!

But what is this one?

A) Flaming Popcorn
B) The flatulent English Turtle

[ShadeHonestus]

Most UFO cases involving the emission of flame are nothing more than the Coyote with his Acme rockets.

[Fisherking]

You know I was really hoping for B. That way it could be explained as a natural phenomenon. That would put it right up there with swap gas in Arizona.

[ShadeHonestus]

Swamp Gas is on my UFO's license plate.

In seriousness though, I'd go so far as to say 40% of serious UFO sightings (those reported by professional and respectable people and not professional UFO seekers) are government projects that they don't want to talk about. However, I don't blame them for not wanting to talk about them. The stealth program was a UFO at one point. For me to require full disclosure at all times about everything is pretty selfish. Besides think of how boring the cinema would have been over the last 50 years if they ponied up to their ownership of UFO's.

[BDC]

That Kalingrad video sounds suspiciously like a shattered and terrified guy mistaking a zeppelin and some fighters flying around it for something else, and taking a blurry video, which no one could really analyse properly.

[Fisherking]

Illuminated Zeppelins! Are the Russians still using those things? If there was a zeppelin advertising hair spray being buzzed by Mig 29s I am sure there would be a report of it.

It must have been the turtle. :laugh4:

[caravel]

Swamp Gas is on my UFO's license plate.

In seriousness though, I'd go so far as to say 40% of serious UFO sightings (those reported by professional and respectable people and not professional UFO seekers) are government projects that they don't want to talk about. However, I don't blame them for not wanting to talk about them. The stealth program was a UFO at one point. For me to require full disclosure at all times about everything is pretty selfish. Besides think of how boring the cinema would have been over the last 50 years if they ponied up to their ownership of UFO's.
I remember reading about the B2 (Stealth Bomber) and the F-117 being reported as UFOs (flying triangles) for decades.

The majority of the, supposedly geniune, photographs show a fat disc shaped craft, unsuited to space travel. The craft often has rotor blades underneath. This in itself indicates an aerospace craft of some kind. Even old sci-fi movies feature craft with the rotor blades. Experimental flying saucers, probably also experimental stealth craft (the so called "project silver bug" of the 1950s was apparently a disc shaped early, and failed, attempt at a vertical take off and landing craft).

The majority of these crat were sighted over a certain desert in a certain country mainly during a certain cold war. Very few are "seen" elsewhere in the world and there are no genuine images of anything, but a lot of faked images (both of supposed UFO's and of supposed US Air Force saucer craft).

The most probable explanation is that authorities prefer people to think of these so called "black projects" as "alien beings from another world", rather than have the projects compromised altogether.

And Hollywood, and thus the US economy, did well from the multitude of movies spawned from the UFO sightings. When you've got a good myth going that's bringing in the cash, you hold onto it and perpetuate it for as long as possible.

[Fisherking]

I remember reading about the B2 (Stealth Bomber) and the F-117 being reported as UFOs (flying triangles) for decades.

The majority of the, supposedly geniune, photographs show a fat disc shaped craft, unsuited to space travel. The craft often has rotor blades underneath. This in itself indicates an aerospace craft of some kind. Even old sci-fi movies feature craft with the rotor blades. Experimental flying saucers, probably also experimental stealth craft (the so called "project silver bug" of the 1950s was apparently a disc shaped early, and failed, attempt at a vertical take off and landing craft).

The majority of these crat were sighted over a certain desert in a certain country mainly during a certain cold war. Very few are "seen" elsewhere in the world and there are no genuine images of anything, but a lot of faked images (both of supposed UFO's and of supposed US Air Force saucer craft).

The most probable explanation is that authorities prefer people to think of these so called "black projects" as "alien beings from another world", rather than have the projects compromised altogether.

And Hollywood, and thus the US economy, did well from the multitude of movies spawned from the UFO sightings. When you've got a good myth going that's bringing in the cash, you hold onto it and perpetuate it for as long as possible.

Actually the reports are pretty much world wide. But that doesn't rule out secrete craft being built on earth.

I think they are big in China at the moment. I don't know what their government's attitude about them is though.

[caravel]

Actually the reports are pretty much world wide. But that doesn't rule out secrete craft being built on earth.
The supposed sightings are worldwide, especially since people started seeing them in the US.

I think they are big in China at the moment. I don't know what their government's attitude about them is though.
The latest Chinese saucer us known as the Wok. Once of these crash landed, and local villagers reported that a strange noodle monster emerged from the wreckage, ran into a bamboo forest and was eaten in one gulp by a hungry panda.

[ShadeHonestus]

The latest Chinese saucer us known as the Wok. Once of these crash landed, and local villagers reported that a strange noodle monster emerged from the wreckage, ran into a bamboo forest and was eaten in one gulp by a hungry panda.

Not to mention that the local village of 150 were reeducated as forced labor in the Chenjiashan coal mine and anyone who claimed to witness the phenomenon outside the village were given a vacation package to go swimming at Harbin in return for their patriotism.

[caravel]

Not to mention that the local village of 150 were reeducated as forced labor in the Chenjiashan coal mine and anyone who claimed to witness the phenomenon outside the village were given a vacation package to go swimming at Harbin in return for their patriotism.
Another enlightened one. Yet there are so very few of us still... :no:

The mother ship and the rest of the Wok fleet are hiding behind the moon. They are waiting for such a time as they can invade, when the earth grows hotter. When the time is right the noodle monsters will appear and take this planet and make it their world. What is more, they are among us already, in human form. There is just one sign that we know of, you need to be aware of this in order to be able to recognise the enemy. It is the smell, a scarcely perceptible hint of black bean sauce. This may be an indication that a noodle monster is in your vacinity.

The existence of the Wok craft are being ridiculed by Wok agents that have infiltrated the government. They have released fake pictures showing the Wok crafts photoshopped to look like planes, weather balloons and airships. The US government are afraid that the Wok will reveal that the earth is flat and that Bin Laden was actually Tony Blair in disguise, this is why they do nothing.

[Fisherking]

Another enlightened one. Yet there are so very few of us still... :no:

The mother ship and the rest of the Wok fleet are hiding behind the moon. They are waiting for such a time as they can invade, when the earth grows hotter. When the time is right the noodle monsters will appear and take this planet and make it their world. What is more, they are among us already, in human form. There is just one sign that we know of, you need to be aware of this in order to be able to recognise the enemy. It is the smell, a scarcely perceptible hint of black bean sauce. This may be an indication that a noodle monster is in your vacinity.

The existence of the Wok craft are being ridiculed by Wok agents that have infiltrated the government. They have released fake pictures showing the Wok crafts photoshopped to look like planes, weather balloons and airships. The US government are afraid that the Wok will reveal that the earth is flat and that Bin Laden was actually Tony Blair in disguise, this is why they do nothing.

Hay! That sounds too much like a conspiracy to me! That is another thread…

Let's try to concentrate on UFOs like the flatulent English Sea Turtle seen over Russia.:yes:

[Tuuvi]

If the sea turtle is english then why is it in russia? Is it a tourist or something? And why does it have such bad flatulance? I think these things require serious scientific investigation.

[Navaros]

The other week I saw a documentary from ~2005 about UFO's, it had a famous reporter narrate it. It went through the whole history of UFO's. It made it very obvious that in the 1950's and 1960's the US government was committing mass coverups. They sent out credible airforce men to investigate a UFO and all of the crew reported back that they saw it (which isn't what the government wanted them to say). After a few examples of the US's own credible military men consistently confirming the UFO's and a scientist "yes man" who they sent to investigate and interview hundreds of people who after many years turned to the side of believing in UFO's, only then US government stopped investigating UFO's.

I don't think they are aliens. I think they are probably really advanced and secret military aircraft. Don't understand why they are covered up, and why no one credible ever pushes to finally end the cover up.

I agree that all alleged alien abductees are insane.

[Fisherking]

http://www.ufoinfo.com/news/prufosreport5.pdf

This is a listing of Police reports on UFO in the UK over the years.

I haven't read it all but you may find some of it interesting.

[Louis VI the Fat]

For all you UFO fans out there:


France Posts Previously Secret UFO Reports On Website
March 23, 2007
By MOLLY MOORE, Washington Post PARIS -- On an August day in 1967, two children tending a herd of cows outside a village in central France reported seeing "four small black beings" fly from the ground and slip headfirst into a sphere that shot skyward in a flash of light and trail of sulfuric odors.

The alleged extraterrestrial sighting, described by the French government as "one of the most astonishing observed in France," is among 1,600 UFO case files spanning the past half century that the country's space agency opened to the public for the first time Thursday.

The voluntary decision by France's National Center for Space Studies to dump more than 100,000 pages of witness testimony, photographs, film footage and audio tapes from its secret UFO archives onto its Internet site, www.cnes.fr, for worldwide viewing is an unprecedented move among Western countries. Most of them, the United States included, consider such records classified matters of national security.

Within three hours of posting the first cases Thursday, the French space agency's Web server crashed, overwhelmed by the flood of viewers seeking the first glimpses of official government evidence on a subject long a target of both fascination and ridicule.
There you go (http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc-france0323.artmar23,0,4522244.story?coll=hc-headlines-nationworld), 100 000 pages of classified information. Eat your heart out, enthousiasts. There are more abductions, sightings, unexplained phenomena and nervous military officials in there than you can shake a stick at. :evil: :alien:

Here's the English Cnes (http://www.cnes.fr/web/455-cnes-en.php) homepage. (the Centre National for Space Study, the French 'NASA') Alas, naturally, the formerly secret archives (http://www.cnes-geipan.fr/) are in French, but I suppose all the interesting stuff will soon find its way across the internet in translation. The archive section itself is still down too, after crashes due to heavy traffic.