GuyofJerusalem
02-09-2007, 18:47
I just beat the Mongols in my H/VH campaign as Milan. The results were:
a. They didn't manage to take one city/castle or even seige one.
b. I had only three full stacks running around in the open (and another two cities worth of garrisons that were not used) and the three defeated all ten stacks in two waves. No excellent generals or troops used at all, rather run of the mill actually.
c. I attacked more than I defended. I attacked them immediately when they spawned at Baghdad and fought them all the way to Aleppo.
d. I oftened attacked two full stacks and one half stack with just 1 full stack of mine.
e. What the tin says - no seiges, assassins, bridges or weird armies. Balanced armies beat them.
Pic of the last Khan killed within 20 years of coming:
https://img107.imageshack.us/img107/4467/killkhanbx1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
A)
Preparation to fight the Mongols as an European power:
1. To be a good Euro, you need to crusade. And to crusade, a no brainer would be to take Nicosia castle, since you could build in relative safety there. However, since the computer upgrades its castles far faster than you, only take the place around 60-90 turns or so when it has become a fortress. With 10 years effort, you could pumping out some good spearmen and hopefully, Templars there. Land some priests because I have seen multiple Orthodox priests there before. It is an excellent base to be the fastest crusader every time.
2. To be a game player who actually plays for fun and balance, you need to help the hapless Egypt and Turkey fight off the Mongols (Russia is too far off, and not in the area of crusades). So take Antioch (big money earner) and Aleppo, a second castle in that area. Try to do it via crusades so you have a bunch of crusader units fast that help keep Egypt and Turkey off your backs (to find an early ceasefire if at war, try to destroy any large stacks with utter presumptuous, a humiliated AI accepts faster it seems). Take both around turn 100 before the Mongols come as you don't really want to spend time squabbling with the original Muslims.
3. To fight the Mongols I used 3 stacks, each with: 6 Genoese crossbow militia, 6 spearmen (of any kind, not militia), one general, one catapult, one Standard of Milan, three heavy cavalry (Templars or men at arms) and two swordsmen (men at arms). Run of the mill, but I beat the Mongols in a 10-round slugout.
Units or thereabouts:
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/706/formationgi3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
B)
Conduct of campaign report
1. I heard stories about Mongols being complete destroyers, so I placed one stack on the ford right below Baghdad. Two others were near Aleppo and Antioch. However the first two stacks that appeared ignored me so I attacked them. The reason was that I did not want them to attack Egyptians and I wanted them to attack me on bridges etc, also I wanted to whittle down the horde.
2. To fight the Mongols, you could go all heavy cavalry or seige etc. But I wanted to go toe to toe. So I put all crossbows on the front row, backed by a single row of spearmen. On the left or right I would put all the heavy cavalry, to be anchored on any prominent hill for the reason that it is far faster to charge downhill changing direction than charge up. Anchoring the other end is a single catapult which I used to antagonise their horse archers also lob some speculative shots on their generals when possible or use as an arrow soak or force their formation to move. Two swordsmen nearby. General and Standard behind the general lines and that's it.
3. The Standard of Milan is useful, Great Cross also substitutable, but another general is also possible, for other factions. The enemy seems to have a great attraction for the Standard and it is excellent for blocking cavalry charges. I always wheel it past the crossbows before ordering the spearmen behind to charge.The most important is the crossbows of course, but mine is only militia to test my ideas and Pavise can probably do as well. Most euros have somethign like Pavise.
4. The crucial thing for a conventional army is to wheel and bound forward as a group. Group every single unit into one after placing them. Now, move forward running into limited advances, planning carefully which step to go next and watching the enemy carefully. Only ever move as a group because he will cut fragmetns off. If you fight one big or one half stack the half stack will slip behind you to cut off your escape route. Don't panic - no biggie. Once every crossbow is in position, click halt on each one to get them to fire immediately without waiting for the rest of the formation.
https://img47.imageshack.us/img47/3/lineuphf7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
5. Get the Mongols to go into a shooting match with you and not have all his lancers charge into your ranks which will decimate you as a organised force. There is a right distance you must keep and never go beyond that, but its hard to explain here. Always shoot at their horse and heavy horse archers first, crossbows are better than bows at this I think. I have seen an entire unit wiped out in three volleys when they pretend charge at me. Once a horse archer goes into that circle firing thing ignore it for the moment since it is nowwhere firing at full effectiveness.
6. The horse archers will pretend to charge at you or pretend to retreat to lure pieces out. DO NOT EVER ATTACK THEIR HORSE ARCHERS EXCEPT WITH BOLTS. Any wrong move on your part here, no matter how enticing it is to ride down their infantry with your heavy horses, and you will see the Khan crashing his mace into your general's face in a few minutes. Therefore, be bold, take crossbows off skirmish and stand their ground.
7. Crossbows will kill the most, they will outshoot the Mongols if you get your terrain right and do not take on all their shooters at once, but your spears at the most important. That's why if the enemy does charge, let your crossbows take the brunt then move forward and entangle them. Remember to use the Standard or another general etc.
8. Generally of course you prefer to fire downhill from on top a broad slope, but the Middle East to Antioch is full of that terrain. However, if the Khan's army is grouped right below a slope, do not appear merrily above the skyline and start shooting since their entire army will start firing. Let them have the wrongful notion they are trying to lure your army out when you're actually grimly killing their units by two or three. Always keep your distance.
https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3692/killingkz0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
9. Mongol lancers do not charge outright from a great distance away. The warning signs are when they sprint-stop, stroll-stop, moving nearer for the charge. Do not be afraid to move backwards if you need to and use the catapult to discourage him. If need to, sacrifice a horse.
10. Horses are absolutely needed to get their artillery, since you have none in my formation. Use one to lure adn the other to attack. Skirt their normal shooters every important.
11. Once all the archer horses and infantry are broken (less than 10 each) time to use the precious last of your bolts on the lancers. Pavise and Genoese are good at this, concentrate on the heavy lancers then light lancers and not the general. When it is time to strike, move the entire formation forward slowly, so as not to entangle any fleeing Mongol shooters, and pause when it is near for that great moment, when creaking and groaning the Standard is wheeled out in front of the formation. Immediately sound the charge hurling all your spears in a bow shape at the general, while your horses charge the broken lancers and your swordsmen flank all and take them from behind. Commit the General only when you see lancers breaking free and charging yoru crossbows, which happens with alarming regularity. KILL THE GENERAL, never let him escape. Never chase the remnants after they start to rout, immediately reorganise and look to get out. If you take a charge, beat them off and immediately retreat. The game plan is screwed.
https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2205/screwedsw6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
12. When you attack very large stacks like me, there will be another bastard waiting on his fat horse watching you with his army. Retreat after killing one general. Take the defeat instead of losing your entire army since you have no bolts left. You will lose often using this method but you will win the war. Sometimes the AI is excellent when it paces your entire army with horsemen looking to cut you off. If you press withdraw all of them will charge. Lose in this order - Cavalry, Standard/Catapult, Spears, General, Crossbows - if need be. If fighting half stacks with no generals and one full stack with general, never use bolts on the half stacks but you can beat them with a few good blasts and good use of your horsemen. Always know which Mongol unit belongs to which army.
https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/319/getthekhantw0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
13. I used the first general who fought the Mongols to trail the great horde, looking to cut off stragglers and attackign when I could get two stacks defending only. I usually kill one and knock half a stack off the other. The other two stacks manned a bridge, not that to force him to attack but to bottle him up against Edessa so I can continue to use another stack to swing heavy punches at him. In the end he panicked and two half stacks attacked my full stack adn got wiped out.
14. Through this method, which is perfectly conventional and honorable, I beat the Mongol army without having to use existing unconentional methods or seiges or lose too many troops. I only lost 2.5 stacks out of the 3 field armies but I had garrisons as back up, and I only took less than 20 years. They never had a city.
It is possible, just takes some understanding taht the strength of the Mongols is not in their shooters, but generals, generals bodyguard and heavy lancers. Euro power!
The only thing now to do is wave goodbye at the nice mongol chaps and thank them for their visit
https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3294/goodbyewc5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
a. They didn't manage to take one city/castle or even seige one.
b. I had only three full stacks running around in the open (and another two cities worth of garrisons that were not used) and the three defeated all ten stacks in two waves. No excellent generals or troops used at all, rather run of the mill actually.
c. I attacked more than I defended. I attacked them immediately when they spawned at Baghdad and fought them all the way to Aleppo.
d. I oftened attacked two full stacks and one half stack with just 1 full stack of mine.
e. What the tin says - no seiges, assassins, bridges or weird armies. Balanced armies beat them.
Pic of the last Khan killed within 20 years of coming:
https://img107.imageshack.us/img107/4467/killkhanbx1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
A)
Preparation to fight the Mongols as an European power:
1. To be a good Euro, you need to crusade. And to crusade, a no brainer would be to take Nicosia castle, since you could build in relative safety there. However, since the computer upgrades its castles far faster than you, only take the place around 60-90 turns or so when it has become a fortress. With 10 years effort, you could pumping out some good spearmen and hopefully, Templars there. Land some priests because I have seen multiple Orthodox priests there before. It is an excellent base to be the fastest crusader every time.
2. To be a game player who actually plays for fun and balance, you need to help the hapless Egypt and Turkey fight off the Mongols (Russia is too far off, and not in the area of crusades). So take Antioch (big money earner) and Aleppo, a second castle in that area. Try to do it via crusades so you have a bunch of crusader units fast that help keep Egypt and Turkey off your backs (to find an early ceasefire if at war, try to destroy any large stacks with utter presumptuous, a humiliated AI accepts faster it seems). Take both around turn 100 before the Mongols come as you don't really want to spend time squabbling with the original Muslims.
3. To fight the Mongols I used 3 stacks, each with: 6 Genoese crossbow militia, 6 spearmen (of any kind, not militia), one general, one catapult, one Standard of Milan, three heavy cavalry (Templars or men at arms) and two swordsmen (men at arms). Run of the mill, but I beat the Mongols in a 10-round slugout.
Units or thereabouts:
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/706/formationgi3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
B)
Conduct of campaign report
1. I heard stories about Mongols being complete destroyers, so I placed one stack on the ford right below Baghdad. Two others were near Aleppo and Antioch. However the first two stacks that appeared ignored me so I attacked them. The reason was that I did not want them to attack Egyptians and I wanted them to attack me on bridges etc, also I wanted to whittle down the horde.
2. To fight the Mongols, you could go all heavy cavalry or seige etc. But I wanted to go toe to toe. So I put all crossbows on the front row, backed by a single row of spearmen. On the left or right I would put all the heavy cavalry, to be anchored on any prominent hill for the reason that it is far faster to charge downhill changing direction than charge up. Anchoring the other end is a single catapult which I used to antagonise their horse archers also lob some speculative shots on their generals when possible or use as an arrow soak or force their formation to move. Two swordsmen nearby. General and Standard behind the general lines and that's it.
3. The Standard of Milan is useful, Great Cross also substitutable, but another general is also possible, for other factions. The enemy seems to have a great attraction for the Standard and it is excellent for blocking cavalry charges. I always wheel it past the crossbows before ordering the spearmen behind to charge.The most important is the crossbows of course, but mine is only militia to test my ideas and Pavise can probably do as well. Most euros have somethign like Pavise.
4. The crucial thing for a conventional army is to wheel and bound forward as a group. Group every single unit into one after placing them. Now, move forward running into limited advances, planning carefully which step to go next and watching the enemy carefully. Only ever move as a group because he will cut fragmetns off. If you fight one big or one half stack the half stack will slip behind you to cut off your escape route. Don't panic - no biggie. Once every crossbow is in position, click halt on each one to get them to fire immediately without waiting for the rest of the formation.
https://img47.imageshack.us/img47/3/lineuphf7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
5. Get the Mongols to go into a shooting match with you and not have all his lancers charge into your ranks which will decimate you as a organised force. There is a right distance you must keep and never go beyond that, but its hard to explain here. Always shoot at their horse and heavy horse archers first, crossbows are better than bows at this I think. I have seen an entire unit wiped out in three volleys when they pretend charge at me. Once a horse archer goes into that circle firing thing ignore it for the moment since it is nowwhere firing at full effectiveness.
6. The horse archers will pretend to charge at you or pretend to retreat to lure pieces out. DO NOT EVER ATTACK THEIR HORSE ARCHERS EXCEPT WITH BOLTS. Any wrong move on your part here, no matter how enticing it is to ride down their infantry with your heavy horses, and you will see the Khan crashing his mace into your general's face in a few minutes. Therefore, be bold, take crossbows off skirmish and stand their ground.
7. Crossbows will kill the most, they will outshoot the Mongols if you get your terrain right and do not take on all their shooters at once, but your spears at the most important. That's why if the enemy does charge, let your crossbows take the brunt then move forward and entangle them. Remember to use the Standard or another general etc.
8. Generally of course you prefer to fire downhill from on top a broad slope, but the Middle East to Antioch is full of that terrain. However, if the Khan's army is grouped right below a slope, do not appear merrily above the skyline and start shooting since their entire army will start firing. Let them have the wrongful notion they are trying to lure your army out when you're actually grimly killing their units by two or three. Always keep your distance.
https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3692/killingkz0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
9. Mongol lancers do not charge outright from a great distance away. The warning signs are when they sprint-stop, stroll-stop, moving nearer for the charge. Do not be afraid to move backwards if you need to and use the catapult to discourage him. If need to, sacrifice a horse.
10. Horses are absolutely needed to get their artillery, since you have none in my formation. Use one to lure adn the other to attack. Skirt their normal shooters every important.
11. Once all the archer horses and infantry are broken (less than 10 each) time to use the precious last of your bolts on the lancers. Pavise and Genoese are good at this, concentrate on the heavy lancers then light lancers and not the general. When it is time to strike, move the entire formation forward slowly, so as not to entangle any fleeing Mongol shooters, and pause when it is near for that great moment, when creaking and groaning the Standard is wheeled out in front of the formation. Immediately sound the charge hurling all your spears in a bow shape at the general, while your horses charge the broken lancers and your swordsmen flank all and take them from behind. Commit the General only when you see lancers breaking free and charging yoru crossbows, which happens with alarming regularity. KILL THE GENERAL, never let him escape. Never chase the remnants after they start to rout, immediately reorganise and look to get out. If you take a charge, beat them off and immediately retreat. The game plan is screwed.
https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2205/screwedsw6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
12. When you attack very large stacks like me, there will be another bastard waiting on his fat horse watching you with his army. Retreat after killing one general. Take the defeat instead of losing your entire army since you have no bolts left. You will lose often using this method but you will win the war. Sometimes the AI is excellent when it paces your entire army with horsemen looking to cut you off. If you press withdraw all of them will charge. Lose in this order - Cavalry, Standard/Catapult, Spears, General, Crossbows - if need be. If fighting half stacks with no generals and one full stack with general, never use bolts on the half stacks but you can beat them with a few good blasts and good use of your horsemen. Always know which Mongol unit belongs to which army.
https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/319/getthekhantw0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
13. I used the first general who fought the Mongols to trail the great horde, looking to cut off stragglers and attackign when I could get two stacks defending only. I usually kill one and knock half a stack off the other. The other two stacks manned a bridge, not that to force him to attack but to bottle him up against Edessa so I can continue to use another stack to swing heavy punches at him. In the end he panicked and two half stacks attacked my full stack adn got wiped out.
14. Through this method, which is perfectly conventional and honorable, I beat the Mongol army without having to use existing unconentional methods or seiges or lose too many troops. I only lost 2.5 stacks out of the 3 field armies but I had garrisons as back up, and I only took less than 20 years. They never had a city.
It is possible, just takes some understanding taht the strength of the Mongols is not in their shooters, but generals, generals bodyguard and heavy lancers. Euro power!
The only thing now to do is wave goodbye at the nice mongol chaps and thank them for their visit
https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3294/goodbyewc5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)