What to do with useless generals?

[Alcorr]

Exactly what the title says...I am having trouble deciding what to do with generals that have no purpose governing or fighting.

Every game I play I always get several generals that have something along the following lines:

Corrupt
Aloof
Ugly
Wildly Extravagant
Utterly Insane
Dangerously Mad
Disloyal

etc...

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hi Alcorr,
I suggest you send 'em on a one way cruise across the sea. Build yourself a cheap single unit of the cheapest and weakest boat type and send it out into pirate infested waters. The pirates attack, destroy the boat, it sinks and it takes the rubbish general with it :evilgrin:

Another method could be to send the general out to fight an uber army of rebels. Charge him into the strongest enemy unit, and watch him die as the rest of the enemy army surround him!

Good luck with destroying your generals! Cheers!

[napoleon526]

The reason that they're acquiring those characteristics is that you're keeping them in cities, where they're picking up bad habits (drinking, gambling, whoring, imbezzelment). I usually build a fort and keep all my generals besides those commanding armies and commanding border castles.

If you don't put your generals in cities, then they don't have the opportunity to become corrupt or extravagant. There's not much you can do about ugliness, though.

[Ars Moriendi]

1. Homeland maintenance : fight off the rebels, build watchtowers.

2. Frontline duty : Gen.bodyguards make excelent heavy cav. Just put them in an army with a good general with higher command rating, and use them as you would any other h.cav.

3. Commandos : suicidal missions deep in enemy territory ; raid & sack poorly defended inner cities, keeping thy enemies in the stone age. If the lunatic dies, he'll just make room for young upcomers.

4. Logistic manager : transporting troops from your developed castles to the borders of the empire is risky - they might turn rebels. Add a general in the stack to prevent it.

[Alcorr]

1. Homeland maintenance : fight off the rebels, build watchtowers.

2. Frontline duty : Gen.bodyguards make excelent heavy cav. Just put them in an army with a good general with higher command rating, and use them as you would any other h.cav.

3. Commandos : suicidal missions deep in enemy territory ; raid & sack poorly defended inner cities, keeping thy enemies in the stone age. If the lunatic dies, he'll just make room for young upcomers.

4. Logistic manager : transporting troops from your developed castles to the borders of the empire is risky - they might turn rebels. Add a general in the stack to prevent it.

Well I already do all of these things some of the time, just wondering if there was anything else.

Frontline duty I would rather have a unit of 40 man hvy cav rather than 20 man hvy cav with 2 hp each, maybe its just a personal preference.

Suicidal missions is what im doing now...mainly exploring and sending my useless gens across europe.

Transporting troops is something I rarely do with these gens...due to low loyalty...some have 0 or 1 its really bad...

[pevergreen]

The answer!

Download Medifix.

[Lorenzo_H]

"Ugly" can turn into "Scarred" which is good (+8 hitpoints in Battle and I think +1 dread) so don't worry about those Generals too much, just send them to the front line.

[sapi]

Lots of spare generals = no rebels in your territory :P

You might even pick up some useful traits :beam:

[Foz]

Frontline duty I would rather have a unit of 40 man hvy cav rather than 20 man hvy cav with 2 hp each, maybe its just a personal preference.
No way! Check it out:

1. Stats. Most bodyguard units (early) have pri attack 13/+8 charge, sec attack 14/+4 charge, and total defense of 16. Most knight units don't come close to touching these numbers.
2. Numbers. Often times general units end up with more than 20 members (don't ask how, but I've seen 23 and 27 at least), meaning they're better than even 40 equivalent troops (b/c they take 2 hits to kill so are essentially 2 soldiers each). You also get the ridiculous benefit of maintaining full combat effectiveness for considerably longer - each man can absorb one hit without ANYTHING happening to the unit's fighting strength. The same cannot be said of a normal cav unit, which begins to fight less capably as soon as 1 man takes a hit. This is especially important when you multiple charge, as you can usually get a second charge with almost the entire company out of a general unit b/c they just shrug off any hits they take as they withdraw.
3. Maneuverability. Due to the smaller unit size, the unit tends to stick together more, can get in harder-to-reach places, and is also considerably easier to withdraw than a similar 40-man cav unit. 40 man units tend to get twisted up in whatever you had them charge into, where the smaller general units do much better at breaking free quickly to charge again.
4. Experience. Due to having 2HP, each man in the unit typically gets far more combat experience than any rider in a 40-man unit does. This makes it much easier to level up the bodyguard unit in my experience.

[kublikhan3]

Give them to me. I would love to have another unit of self-healing, 2 hitpoint, charging machines. Half my generals end up cruely scarred anyway. And if they are disloyal, don't let them lead the army. Make them the patsy of one of your loyal generals.

[Zajuts149]

The reason that they're acquiring those characteristics is that you're keeping them in cities, where they're picking up bad habits (drinking, gambling, whoring, imbezzelment). I usually build a fort and keep all my generals besides those commanding armies and commanding border castles.

If you don't put your generals in cities, then they don't have the opportunity to become corrupt or extravagant. There's not much you can do about ugliness, though.

LOL!

My general is a drunk, yours is ugly. Mine can sober up :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Alcorr]

No way! Check it out:

1. Stats. Most bodyguard units (early) have pri attack 13/+8 charge, sec attack 14/+4 charge, and total defense of 16. Most knight units don't come close to touching these numbers.
2. Numbers. Often times general units end up with more than 20 members (don't ask how, but I've seen 23 and 27 at least), meaning they're better than even 40 equivalent troops (b/c they take 2 hits to kill so are essentially 2 soldiers each). You also get the ridiculous benefit of maintaining full combat effectiveness for considerably longer - each man can absorb one hit without ANYTHING happening to the unit's fighting strength. The same cannot be said of a normal cav unit, which begins to fight less capably as soon as 1 man takes a hit. This is especially important when you multiple charge, as you can usually get a second charge with almost the entire company out of a general unit b/c they just shrug off any hits they take as they withdraw.
3. Maneuverability. Due to the smaller unit size, the unit tends to stick together more, can get in harder-to-reach places, and is also considerably easier to withdraw than a similar 40-man cav unit. 40 man units tend to get twisted up in whatever you had them charge into, where the smaller general units do much better at breaking free quickly to charge again.
4. Experience. Due to having 2HP, each man in the unit typically gets far more combat experience than any rider in a 40-man unit does. This makes it much easier to level up the bodyguard unit in my experience.

I have considered these points before, and I still use these insane generals in battle, but I must say I would take a unit of gothic knights over a 20 man gen unit any day. 20 men seems to be my average as some are 16 and some are a good 24...

Those are all true points but im talking about late game where units like gothic knights are actually better in melee (maces) than the general units.

But more importantly, like 90% of damage done on melee is during the charge, a unit with half the men is going to do (in essence) somewhere around half the damage on the charge. Thus twice as many enemy survive...

[snorky]

i had an ugly king

[Garnier]

whenever I have generals I no longer want, I send them alone or with more generals I dont want to die in battle. Sometimes though they win, but thats good anyway.

[Foz]

I have considered these points before, and I still use these insane generals in battle, but I must say I would take a unit of gothic knights over a 20 man gen unit any day. 20 men seems to be my average as some are 16 and some are a good 24...
I have a unit of 33 right now, and almost never see less than 20. Fairly often I see higher though. Does anyone know what controls the size of the general's bodyguard unit?


Those are all true points but im talking about late game where units like gothic knights are actually better in melee (maces) than the general units.
"units like gothic knights..." There aren't any others like them, lol. No other cav unit in the game boasts as high a secondary attack w/ AP stat. The few that have AP mostly have considerably lower attacks, and the ones that don't typically have attacks no better than that of a general unit. Even not considering that, if you are allowing your heavy cavalry to become entangled in melee you are using them incorrectly, so this should not be a concern.


But more importantly, like 90% of damage done on melee is during the charge, a unit with half the men is going to do (in essence) somewhere around half the damage on the charge. Thus twice as many enemy survive...
One would be inclined to think this a valid point, and to some degree it may be. However, when using a larger group of cavalry, it is usual for many of them to miss the charge target - half the unit is in the second row and often ends up not charging into anything, and furthermore the flanks of the front row are often even ineffective as they are boxed out from actually contacting the target unit by the interior men of their own unit. Only about 1/4 of the unit (~10 men) is actually in a good position to connect with a charge, and that's assuming a frontal attack. In side charges, this is even less. The narrow nature of a general's unit gives it an advantage here as well, as the same 10 men in the middle are in great position to charge, it's just that they are higher quality troops now with bigger attack and charge bonuses than most cavalry. If more than 20 men at a time could be reasonably expected to connect with a given charge then your argument would be valid, but as they typically do not, it holds no water.

[todorp]

You must work hard on building of the character of your Generals:

1. Never keep them in cities

2. Leave one or two married to reproduce in a castles

3. Put all the rest in your offensive army to fight. They are wonderful because they self replentish ~:thumb:

4. If there is a crusade send half of them and they will become saints. You need the other half in your home land.

[Lord Fluffy]

My insane king has 62 bodyguards right now, his fat prince that had just died had 40. What unit sizes are you guys playing?

[dph948]

I'm pretty sure getting ancillaries adds to the bodyguard size.

[Gingivitis]

I think the "security" stat a general gets provides additional units, but that's just a guess from my observations. Maybe I'll test it when I get home from work.

[Marquis of Roland]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that you don't have to retrain your general units, as they automatically go back to full complement in a turn or two (nevermind, someone just did lol thats what I get for not reading thoroughly).

I keep my treasury under 50k at all times and I got minimal bad traits (compared to some people I've heard, sounds like their generals have every single bad trait in the game by being in a city for only 1 or 2 turns), the only one that is consistently popping up for me is "Wildly Extravagant". They usually have only 2 or 3 bad traits (and not the worst of those categories) and almost never more than 4. I have a general in every city. For promising field commanders I typically leave them in a settlement for a turn or 2 to pick up some positive traits, then send them off and they never see civilization again.

I think I'd rather take a general than a full heavy cav unit in my armies now, especially if I'm not Germany lol. The charges are so messed up in this game, I remember in RTW that if you charged with a longer line the guys on the extreme ends would actually turn after they pass the target and charge them in the back/flank. When I charge in this game, its really anyone's guess what'll happen next, I've seen weird things happen. Problem is I never have extra generals around.

Troop transport duty is a good idea.

If you want all your bad generals to die put them all in one army and send them up against Mongols or Timurids, at least you can enjoy the show of a suicidal charge, and hey, maybe you'll wipe a stack or so.

[LordKhaine]

There is no such thing as a useless family member. Throw them into the meat grinder of battle and you may be suprised what comes out. Before many of my "useless" family members have really turned around and become amazing fighters, often even as far as high star generals. You can always counter a bad trait with good ones, after all.

I've always viewed insanity ('http://www.zen17212.zen.co.uk/Pics/MTW2/insanity.jpg') as simply giving the person more.. character?

[Foz]

There is no such thing as a useless family member. Throw them into the meat grinder of battle and you may be suprised what comes out. Before many of my "useless" family members have really turned around and become amazing fighters, often even as far as high star generals. You can always counter a bad trait with good ones, after all.

I've always viewed insanity ('http://www.zen17212.zen.co.uk/Pics/MTW2/insanity.jpg') as simply giving the person more.. character?
Some inquisitor is gonna get him, lol.

More on topic, the debates of this thread have led me to try something: I ran duplicate tests except for one thing: In one I used a bodyguard unit, in the other I modified that unit to have only 1 HP but twice as many members. Results follow:

The first 2 sets are charges I controlled, against AI Dismounted Feudal Knights. 1st is with NE Early Bodyguard in default config:

enemy killed/bodyguard lost
58/4
58/1
58/2
59/3
59/3

13 total dead bodyguard

Same thing, but bodyguard having 1 HP but 40 men:

enemy killed/bodyguard lost
57/2
56/6
61/3
58/6
60/6

23 total dead bodyguard

The last 2 sets are AI NE Early Bodyguard vs. Armored Sgts controlled by me.

First w/ normal bodyguards:

bodyguard lost/enemy killed
11/73
13/73
11/74
8/73
3/73

46 total dead bodyguard

Now with bodyguard w/ 1 HP but 40 men:

bodyguard lost/enemy killed
15/69
25/72
16/67
19/73
27/75

102 total dead bodyguard
The end result is that they performed nearly identically in terms of percentage of unit lost by the end of combat. That is to say, in terms of losses (percentage wise) and kills, a unit of 2HP cavalry w/ 20 members is equivalent to a unit with identical stats but only 1HP and 40 members. As the bodyguard generally have better stats than normal 40-man cav units, they will typically outperform 40 member cavalry units save for the few who have competitive or even better stats.

There is one other factor I noticed in all the tests though... experience. By the end of combat, the standard 20-man general's bodyguard unit in all 10 runs I put it through always accumulated 1 bronze chevron. In the 10 runs involving the modified 40-man bodyguard unit, never once did it accumulate 1 bronze chevron by the end of combat. I've already speculated in another thread that experience is driven per-man, and this find would be in keeping with that. Due to the lower unit size, the 20-man bodyguard unit much more quickly hits its experience breakpoints. 1 bronze for instance seems to need 2.0x unit size in kills to achieve. For the 20-man unit, this is only 40 kills, which it does pretty much without fail upon a successful charge. It should be noted that they don't need 40 kills total though... they need an average 2 kills per man. If only 15 survive, then they need 30 combined kills to be 1-bronze. For a 40-man cav unit, though, they need ~80 kills, an unachievable number against a single unit. They COULD gain a single bronze chevron if enough no-kill members died, leaving 60+ kills between the remaining 30 or less members, but in practice it doesn't generally go this way.

For me at least, the much more rapid experience gain, coupled with the fact that they automatically regenerate, makes bodyguards clearly preferable to pretty much any other cavalry.

[Drunkin General]

Excellent posts Foz and I agree that the GB's are some of the best heavy cav around. Especially for factions that have to wait for a long time to get their true heavy cav ie Russia, Turks. One thing that I have noticed though is when you have more than 1 GB in an army that it can cause some weirdness with movement rates like lets say my main general has a bonus to movement, this applies to all units except the other GB's in the army.

edit : which might also affect the moral bonus

[Alcorr]

Some inquisitor is gonna get him, lol.

More on topic, the debates of this thread have led me to try something: I ran duplicate tests except for one thing: In one I used a bodyguard unit, in the other I modified that unit to have only 1 HP but twice as many members. Results follow:

The first 2 sets are charges I controlled, against AI Dismounted Feudal Knights. 1st is with NE Early Bodyguard in default config:

enemy killed/bodyguard lost
58/4
58/1
58/2
59/3
59/3

13 total dead bodyguard

Same thing, but bodyguard having 1 HP but 40 men:

enemy killed/bodyguard lost
57/2
56/6
61/3
58/6
60/6

23 total dead bodyguard

The last 2 sets are AI NE Early Bodyguard vs. Armored Sgts controlled by me.

First w/ normal bodyguards:

bodyguard lost/enemy killed
11/73
13/73
11/74
8/73
3/73

46 total dead bodyguard

Now with bodyguard w/ 1 HP but 40 men:

bodyguard lost/enemy killed
15/69
25/72
16/67
19/73
27/75

102 total dead bodyguard
The end result is that they performed nearly identically in terms of percentage of unit lost by the end of combat. That is to say, in terms of losses (percentage wise) and kills, a unit of 2HP cavalry w/ 20 members is equivalent to a unit with identical stats but only 1HP and 40 members. As the bodyguard generally have better stats than normal 40-man cav units, they will typically outperform 40 member cavalry units save for the few who have competitive or even better stats.

There is one other factor I noticed in all the tests though... experience. By the end of combat, the standard 20-man general's bodyguard unit in all 10 runs I put it through always accumulated 1 bronze chevron. In the 10 runs involving the modified 40-man bodyguard unit, never once did it accumulate 1 bronze chevron by the end of combat. I've already speculated in another thread that experience is driven per-man, and this find would be in keeping with that. Due to the lower unit size, the 20-man bodyguard unit much more quickly hits its experience breakpoints. 1 bronze for instance seems to need 2.0x unit size in kills to achieve. For the 20-man unit, this is only 40 kills, which it does pretty much without fail upon a successful charge. It should be noted that they don't need 40 kills total though... they need an average 2 kills per man. If only 15 survive, then they need 30 combined kills to be 1-bronze. For a 40-man cav unit, though, they need ~80 kills, an unachievable number against a single unit. They COULD gain a single bronze chevron if enough no-kill members died, leaving 60+ kills between the remaining 30 or less members, but in practice it doesn't generally go this way.

For me at least, the much more rapid experience gain, coupled with the fact that they automatically regenerate, makes bodyguards clearly preferable to pretty much any other cavalry.

Well you guys can say what you want, I always find 40 cav units of more use. Perhaps it is because the 20 man gen unit may be better for fighting, but 40 men is better for running down enemies which is all i use my cavalry for anyways. Seriously, the battle AI is so bady I don't think my hvy cavalry have actually ever killed any enemy that hasn't already been fleeing....


Only about 1/4 of the unit (~10 men) is actually in a good position to connect with a charge, and that's assuming a frontal attack. In side charges, this is even less. The narrow nature of a general's unit gives it an advantage here as well, as the same 10 men in the middle are in great position to charge, it's just that they are higher quality troops now with bigger attack and charge bonuses than most cavalry. If more than 20 men at a time could be reasonably expected to connect with a given charge then your argument would be valid, but as they typically do not, it holds no water.

10 men?!?! Thats simply not true. Not to mention normally when the units charge 4-5 cavalry will be lost on the charge even when not facing pike units. I always get at LEAST 20 to hit on target, often times more...

I always use my second and third ranks of cavalry in the unit to connect. Do you have the patch?

[Fookison]

Use the useless generals in an army to deal with those rebel armies that are always lurking along roadways in the shadows of your regions. That way, some of these generals do develop over time and eventually prove their worth. If not, they make great spearmen fodder..........

[-Silent-Pariya]

What i like to do is have an assortment of spies and genrals accross the board... ill look at enemy armies and rebel armies and find one with no cavalry in it.
I take 1 or 2 of my generals and kill the whole army whether it be 900 men or 100. All you do is charge... pull back before the last lines/other units start
getting hit points on ur men and charge again... make sure you always charge back out of archer range... reform neatly and recharge....keep doing this and if
your unit gets tired run him to the farthest corner and let him rest till the enemy reaches u again.

I enjoy having all my generals being 10 command n 10 dread with loads of character traits like conquering hero brutally scareed utterly couragies ect.

Also, you would be suprised how easily it is to turn a useless general into a good one with just a few heroic victories.

[Need_more_ammo]

I haven't had a worthless general yet, even the ones with bad traits, just don't let them sit in cities or lead important battles. Get them into fighting, escorting other generals, or prevent troops from turning rebels etc.

[LordKhaine]

Some inquisitor is gonna get him, lol.

He's not catholic! :dizzy2:

[Foz]

He's not catholic! :dizzy2:
Lol I didn't even look! In that case... perhaps his god will smite him for his wayward ways. One of those "act of God" things :smile:

[JCoyote]

No general is useless. Even the worst general allows you to control what is and isn't being constructed in a town. If he's bad enough he's detrimental to the public order, just have him sit next to the town so he can pop in, get some stuff done, then head out and fight rebels.

I usually have a handful of such "field governors" that only go to town when I need something done there.

[Ars Moriendi]

No general is useless. Even the worst general allows you to control what is and isn't being constructed in a town. If he's bad enough he's detrimental to the public order, just have him sit next to the town so he can pop in, get some stuff done, then head out and fight rebels.
I usually have a handful of such "field governors" that only go to town when I need something done there.

You don't need governors for that.
You can control every detail of building and recruiting without using any governors at all. It's possible to select what gets automanaged (taxes, building / recruiting) for each settlement.

[Foz]

You don't need governors for that.
You can control every detail of building and recruiting without using any governors at all. It's possible to select what gets automanaged (taxes, building / recruiting) for each settlement.
Only if you play with that particular non-default setting. Out of the box, the game makes you have generals in order to manage a settlement, and will automanage how it sees fit if you do not have governors to make those decisions.

[LordKhaine]

Only if you play with that particular non-default setting. Out of the box, the game makes you have generals in order to manage a settlement, and will automanage how it sees fit if you do not have governors to make those decisions.

Not entirely true. There is a tickbox for construction/recruitment that allows you to control them even if have no general present.

Taxes on the other hand.. you need a governor to fully control.