View Full Version : Observation - Scotts are weak... and here's why
I know that you can play Scotts (or any other faction) against the AI and win. But taking the human factor out of it, they are just terrible. (moderator edit)
All the Islamic factions have enough rebel lands between them to keep busy for a while. When they do meet, they're evenly matched.
Byzantines are rich as hell with good units.
Italian factions have similar good units coming out of their cities so they're evenly matched.
Russia isn't even touched in the beginning. When they do meet another faction, they're able to match (or better) the opposing units. Same for Hungary and Poland. That area is evenly matched.
Iberia (Spain and Portugal) are evenly matched.
France and HRE are evenly matched.
England has a powerful and unique line of archers.
So what does Scots have against their neighbor England? Nothing. They start out with one city, and outclassed in all of their units compared to England. Again, I know that if you play against AI, you can beat anything... but imagine if all the factions were played by human players. That's why I think Scotts are the weakest faction in the game.
I'm editing the thread title - let's try to avoid the word "suck" as an insult, please. It's pretty clear it started out as a sexual insult and so is not a suitable term for this board, although nowadays many people don't realise that.
diotavelli
02-16-2007, 12:29
Scotts? Scotts? Try going into any pub North of Hadrian's Wall and telling them you spell Scot with two 't's. They hate that just as much as being referred to as "the Scotch".
They didn't paint themselves blue and follow Mel Gibson to their deaths just to have some 21st century PC gamer misspell their nationality, you know.
Actually, they didn't paint themselves blue - anyone would go that colour if they lived on a mountain in the rain and wore a skirt with no underpants....
Revenant
02-16-2007, 12:54
Scotts? Scotts? Try going into any pub North of Hadrian's Wall and telling them you spell Scot with two 't's. They hate that just as much as being referred to as "the Scotch".
They didn't paint themselves blue and follow Mel Gibson to their deaths just to have some 21st century PC gamer misspell their nationality, you know.
Actually, they didn't paint themselves blue - anyone would go that colour if they lived on a mountain in the rain and wore a skirt with no underpants....
~:joker:
HoreTore
02-16-2007, 12:59
Well.... Anyway, I've never played with the scots. I do, however, watch the battle between england and scotland every game. and EVERY one I can remember, the scots have whopped them. Every time around gunpowdertime, the entire british isles are comåletely blue....
Ja'chyra
02-16-2007, 13:00
Actually, they didn't paint themselves blue - anyone would go that colour if they lived on a mountain in the rain and wore a skirt with no underpants....
Skirt??????
diotavelli
02-16-2007, 13:50
Skirt??????
Sorry! Did I say skirt? I meant frock.
Derventio
02-16-2007, 14:21
Can I suggest you travel to Scotland, repeat all your comments in Glasgow on a Friday night.
The Scots being a truly hospitable people will no doubt welcome you with a Glasgow kiss. 3 weeks in hospital will probably be enough time to recover. Then take a convelescence in the highlands, enjoy the glorious scenery, imbibe the wonderful liquid refreshment and ponder the error of your ways.
I'm English but truly love Scotland.
Ja'chyra
02-16-2007, 14:27
Sorry! Did I say skirt? I meant frock.
That's better
Back to topic guys:
Many people underestimate the Scots, understandably enough.
First, they will always get Dublin and Inverness first in the hands of a human, and can get York too if they want it.
Second, They can get DFK, Highland Nobles, Border Horse, and Noble Highland Archers from a 3rd level Castle, and from a third level city they can get Scots Pike militia, with Heavy Pike Militia on the way. If you use a Pike fix or your willing to put a lot of micromanagement into your pikes you will find them to be VERY effective. the reality is that the force I just described above can easily take almost any army in the game from any time period. HA ones being the only problematic ones.
With good management it's possible to get an army like this out at around turn 30-40. Thats long before most factions have got beyond the spear militia stage in my hands.
And THAT is the strength of the Scots, their ability to get one of the best late period armies in the game, but to do so in the early stages of the game. Only Gunpowder/HA missile units really present a threat to Heavy Pike Militia, their Armour and numbers protecting them from lesser units.
khaos83_2000
02-16-2007, 14:56
Well, i dun use archers with the scotts.
But their other units are great.
I use their low tier infantry castle units all the time. (the highlander nobles and the ax unit after peasant) I find them able to hold the lines and repel higher tier units.
And I finished the long campign and finish off the mongols and all before the timuids arrive using the scotts.
The archers are VERY good, they are effectivlly Highlanders, (thats the unit a castles above peasents), with a bow and slightly better stats, so they're well worth using IMHO.
ASPER THE GREAT
02-16-2007, 15:05
Playing as the Scot's, what you see is what you get :yes: . 1 city (Edinburgh) that is "Scotland", in the game (Inverness) is a rebel city, you ask "why is it not part of Scotland" because the "Scottish" (2 "T") clans waged war on each other for who has the right to rule :crown: Scotland & they just could never come together. It was war against "England" and yes the English army's were better equipped and could field many more troops then the Scot's, Welsh, & Irish. After many battles & political (shuck & jive) :juggle: through the years we have a "Happy United Kingdom" :laugh4: or so the world believes. :unitedkingdom: "British Policies Make The World England" :unitedkingdom: Brand new game straight out of the box play England take over the world, yea right after screwing around taking rebel cites then sending 2 full stacks up to Scotland easy picking's "NOT" they whooped my butt A/I style :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:!!!!!! That part of the world has the best ~:cheers: money can buy.
Scots are effectively a "corner faction". What you do get is a very nice initial army, and only one border to worry about. Mass your initial troops and send them south and you can be in London in just a few turns.
IsItStillThere
02-16-2007, 19:28
In the game I'm playing now, the AI Scots are whipping AI England. England only has two provinces, london and the one just north of london.
The Scots have all the rest of the british isles (Ireland too), and norway to boot!
They can do quite well, since England can get bogged down fighting for france.
I'm editing the thread title - let's try to avoid the word "suck" as an insult, please.
No insult intended. I have nothing against Scottish people in real life and I didn't realize "suck" had a sexual connotation.
"blowing the bagpipe" would've been much more obvious. :beam:
IrishArmenian
02-16-2007, 20:58
When playing as Alba, one cannot rely on one's units. Rather, one must build some forts with some highland rabble inside to divert all the English attacks into one pass, where one has already positioned a field army waiting to ambush. This works quite well for me and it has depleted the English army with few casualties on my part. That strategy works to get the Scottish economy working, and once that is in full swing, it is ver easy to pick up momentum, building very good infantry--granted the 2-hand fix has been downloaded.
I like the Border Horses, great calvary when used correctly. After a few upgrades, they can either out fight or out run anything the English have. They are the bane of the Longbowmen!
Derfasciti
02-16-2007, 22:14
I've always wanted to play as the Scots simply because I wanted to wage war with England. The problem is I just have a problem with continuing those campaigns because I just see Scotland conquering the whol Isle, let alone the world, as a tad too unrealistic.
Hosakawa Tito
02-16-2007, 22:19
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/khyber-1.jpg
Kilt check!
Marquis of Roland
02-16-2007, 22:35
As far as taking out the AI factor, Scots are indeed probably the weakest faction in the game. Their cavalry arm is limited, and they have no long range missile capability from their own unit roster. This means that their armies will be generally slow-moving on a battlefield and they won't be able to dictate the tempo of the battle and will have to react to the enemy instead of making the enemy react to their actions. In addition their armor is not the highest either (and the highlanders don't have shields I believe, correct me if I'm wrong), which makes them very vulnerable to missile-heavy armies like their neighbor England, or even worse, HA-heavy armies like Egypt or Mongols.
Which leads me to wonder: has anyone successfully taken out all the Mongols (12 stacks) with Scots?
I don't care if Scots suck in the game though, I love using Scots in custom battles (where I pit them against mainly infantry-heavy armies hehe), and I just like the way they look. I know there's all sorts of historical inaccuracies in Braveheart but damnit I like that movie and they just look cool:2thumbsup: . Scots vs. Aztecs was a fun one :laugh4:
Fookison
02-17-2007, 06:31
The Scot's are like any other faction. You need to play to their strengths. Take their Pikes and watch a cavalry army melt in your wake. Throw in some highland archers and away you go. We have had some great battles and campaigns as the Scots........"Where's the fight?":smash:
Rathelon
02-17-2007, 10:26
My current campaign is with Scotland. I crushed England early on, and France shortly thereafter. Then had a very long off-and-on war with Sicily (who had taken over all of Italy), and finally eliminated Sicily and Spain. Denmark decided to test me, so I've virtually crushed his entire empire now as well. I control all of the British Isles, France, Italy, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, and the northern half of Spain/Portugal. Just need about 2 more territories, and to sail an army to Jerusalem to secure the win.
Early on, the highland nobles and highland archers are good enough to take on whatever troops you're facing. Upgrade the armor on the nobles and they tear through enemy troops. Most of my infantry now are noble swordsmen, and I have Templar knights in Angers for cavalry (as well as feudal knights in my other fortresses). Noble highland archers still serve me fine, though I rely on archers less now since I have culverins and mortars with most of my armies.
derfinsterling
02-17-2007, 12:12
As the original poster said... If you *play* the Scots you can easily win the game. Beat the English and secure the Isles as a base of operations that is pretty much unmatched.
But, as an AI faction, they get shortwired. In my games, the Scots fared worse than the English, always being threatened by annihilation. Other factions, like Portugal or Denmark that start small as well, fare much, much better.
grapedog
02-17-2007, 17:31
I think part of the problem is that unless the AI changes the build, Edinburgh is a city, Iverness is a city, York is a city, Dublin is a city. Caernavorn(sp?) is the first castle that the Scot's can realistically take. I think thats why they tend to get shortchanged early...if they don't start grabbing cities, their cash production blows and they have a tough time keeping up with most other cultures, which is unfortunate. I'd love to see Scotland do well early and be around in the end game when I'm not playing them.
Fisherking
02-17-2007, 17:58
I think part of the problem is that unless the AI changes the build, Edinburgh is a city, Iverness is a city, York is a city, Dublin is a city. Caernavorn(sp?) is the first castle that the Scot's can realistically take. I think thats why they tend to get shortchanged early...if they don't start grabbing cities, their cash production blows and they have a tough time keeping up with most other cultures, which is unfortunate. I'd love to see Scotland do well early and be around in the end game when I'm not playing them.
Sorry! Inverness is a castle.........Take it on turn 2...check the unit guides
er...faction guides....
grapedog
02-17-2007, 18:57
i just took it like 2 days ago, i don't remember it being a castle. The Scots still have a very tough time making money in the early game.
khaos83_2000
02-17-2007, 19:33
kick the the English out of the island and $$$ pours in with all the trade rights you can get.
For my campiagn,
I kick the english out of the island in a few turns. I didnt land into europe.
Build up military and economy.
Make 3 stack and sail for Moors, Spain and Portugal. Didnt venture into the desert though...
Then build up again.
Then make another beach landing at the southen tip of Italy. On the way there, took the 2 isle. Push up till Milan.
Build up again.
Then from 3 fronts, push into the heart of Europe.
GG
Fookison
02-17-2007, 22:14
Like most I like to only rid the Brtish isles of the English and not be tempted into taking Caen. The English will not come back to attack the Island soon. Then build a good fleet of holks and an army to head over to Denmark. Take Scandanavia for some big $$$$ (Oslo and Stockhom) Then press south!!!! As for castles. What about Nottingham? This is where I stage my cavalry and other units required for the Danish attacks. Then focus on Arhus and Hamurg for mainland training. I use Arhus to build up the navy required to head to the new world. Hamburg for the army and voila!!!! Happy sailing.......:2thumbsup:
Discoman
02-17-2007, 23:36
In my Campaign as Venetia the Scots utterly destroyed the English, infact England no longer exists because the Scots took all of Ireland, Wales, and Britain. They even took Antwerp and Burges from the HRE. Which I took in return after they attacked me. In the AI department Scotland lacks, I had one, two star general with a very small yet able force, 5 stacks of Scottish cannons and pikemen later he was a 6 star and with a even smaller army. Honestly I keep beating the ai as they slowly charge with Pikemen that get shot up from crossbowmen and ribulets. Infact the AI was so bad I managed to have my general go behind their lines and take out all their artelliary. Which was half their army.
DukeKent
02-18-2007, 01:40
Looks like the Scots' are up next :smash: the limey dogs first. Then we shall see what looks most attractive. Vengence of my ancestors, something like that :laugh4:
Sheogorath
02-18-2007, 06:28
Awww, diddums get ums widdle fanny kicked?
Seriously, EVERY faction is weak if you dont use them right. The Scotts can OWN the English if used correctly, especially the AI English.
I almost always push the English off the islands very early in the game.
Like Ive said in the Scotts tactics topic:
Use your pikes to pin, then flank with your nobles. If you do this right, you will own every army that comes your way.
This is a problem with horse-archer based armies, but the Scotts are far enough away that they dont have to worry about that.
CountMRVHS
02-18-2007, 18:14
I'm trying H/VH Scots, no patch, with Carl's problem fixer. As usual in the British isles, I wish the AI factions were a bit more aggressive. It's around turn 50 and the English haven't even made an attempt on York or Caernarvon. I've been wanting to play a defensive game against the English, so I only have Edinburgh, Inverness, and Oslo. Turtling makes the Scots more interesting as they're quite poor; but still, that's no excuse for the English to leave their backdoor open. I'm curious about other people who claim they have to pull out all the stops to beat the English. How did the war start? What provinces do you own? It seems the English campaign AI is just too passive to be any kind of threat. I'll give it a few more decades, but...
no faction is weak in a good player's hand, scotland has her own strength and weakness. They have some excellent early infantry which will plow through all the spear militia/sergeant spearmen the AI throw at you early in game. A mediocre archer unit and the same knight all the other catholic gets at the beginning. If you play right u can build a stable economy base and conquer the rest of the world. With that being said scotland really dont have much good "elite" units later on. no offensive infantry, no "uber" cavalry, no HA, no long range missile troop or advance gunpowder units. Their best unit, the noble pikemen is only good at holding the other unit in place, and they tent to act more like swordsment than pikemen :sweatdrop: , a good calvary commander can easily flank them due to the fact most nations has better calvary than scotland; not to mention 2H offensive infantry just mow through the nobles with the 2H bug fix applied.
zstajerski
02-18-2007, 23:03
The scottish rule...
You have the best spears in the game plus fanatical infantry, and what consernes the cavalry:
every catholic faction can have hospitaler knights or any other religious knight order, and they all kick ass :smash:
And for eaven my surprise (since it is true that the english army is more well rounded and if you ask me "hardcore") in almoast every secund game i play (VH/VH) they drive the english away from the isles :laugh4:
edit:
not to mention the highland noble archers, they can stand their ground eaven against yeoman archers only with retinue longbowmen or Sherwood archers can you clearly defeat them...
All right, I'm an avid infantry fan, and thus love Scots.
First I'll address a point raised in a post just above this: If you apply a 2-Hander Fix you HAVE to make sure the Highland Noble are altered to fit the new 2-Hander balance, they where balanced to be competitive, (in relation to their price), with the bugged 2-handers and the shield bug in place. Fixing either of those requires a large power up of Highland Nobles to keep them in the same place in relation to other units in the other armies army. DEK will still win, but it will be a very close cut thing, AND the Highland Nobles are available a full 3 tiers earlier.
Onto The rest of it.
Another misconception is that the pikes are only good for pinning. Actually they are excellent fighters even without a Pike Fix if you put the micromanagement in. Do that and they will kill ANYTHING you put in front of them. The cheapest Scottish Pikes are Scots Pike Militia. They turn up a full 3 Tiers earlier than ordinary Pike Militia do in other armies and are identical in everything except name and models. Finally, Heavy Pike Militia and Noble Pikemen both have 8 defense vs. missiles, this is FAR more than any other pike, and partially eliminates the normal vulnerability of pikes to Missiles.
Highlanders are another excellent unit, effectively a slightly lower attack and much lower deference version of VHI. Not the bee's knees as it where, but still very impressive considering their tech level. Their sadly isn't a comparable unit in any other army. But they are loosely equivalent to some of the weaker 2-Handers that become available to some other factions at the 3rd or 4th tech level.
Next up is their archers. Are they especially good shooter? No. But thats because they aren't really archers at all, their basically a lower attack higher defense version of highlanders with the added advantage that they have a bow. Stop thinking of them as archers, and start thinking of them as defensive S&S infantry with AP and you are thinking of them in the right way.
Lastly, they actually have excellent heavy Cav for what they need. The DON'T NEED good Cav, they can get away with using their weaker Cav to pine the enemy in place and disrupt their charges whilst the Spear Militia/Highlanders move in. Border Horse are the best non-Muslim Light Cav and are excellent for attacking enemy archers and chasing down Cav that tries to run from your pinning Cav. If you have Light Cav as fast as Border Horse you simply don't need anything better than Mailed Knights 95% of the time.
edit:
not to mention the highland noble archers, they can stand their ground eaven against yeoman archers only with retinue longbowmen or Sherwood archers can you clearly defeat them...
Not to mention that they can outfight them in melee. In fact the only better composite Archer is the best russian one (Dismounted Dovor I think).
Forward Observer
02-19-2007, 00:19
It's a well known fact why the Scots wear kilts
Sheep can hear zippers:laugh4:
The Scots can be great if you use the AI stupidity and the English agressiveness to your advantage.
As far as troop use, use what Carl said^. I will give you tips based on my personal experiences.
They are going to send all of their troops to either the mainland, or to take the castle between you and them.
first turn, build a ship.
2nd turn, get on it, go south.
3rd turn, invade the wealy defended London from the south. Now you have them surrounded and cut off from the mainland.
After wiping them out, i usually try to re-establish relations with the pope, and go east above Denmark to take the rebels there.
In all of the games i have played, Milan gets ex communicated, use that to your advantage, and take the borders of France from the Milanese.
To get bonus money, declare a crusade on the milanese on a town with one of your armies within reach of it and take it. That should give you good enough standing with the Popeman.
Next, wait.
Eventually, France or HRE will attack you.
If France, then invade southern france from Milan, and once their troops are diverted their, come through the north from England and take Paris from behind, just try not to be excommunicated.
If HRE, build up your defense and let them assault you. Use troops from England and Norway to strike down through Denmark and Poland. Secure the Spanish and eastern borders and rebuild. Everything from Iverness, London, Paris, and Bolonge can be poorly defended as they are in the middle of your empire.
Lorenzo_H
02-19-2007, 10:45
Scotts? Scotts? Try going into any pub North of Hadrian's Wall and telling them you spell Scot with two 't's. They hate that just as much as being referred to as "the Scotch".
They didn't paint themselves blue and follow Mel Gibson to their deaths just to have some 21st century PC gamer misspell their nationality, you know.
Actually, they didn't paint themselves blue - anyone would go that colour if they lived on a mountain in the rain and wore a skirt with no underpants....
lol.
It's a well known fact why the Scots wear kilts
Actually a Scottish person once told me it was so they could hide (~:shock:). Whenever they saw what they were hunting they simply pulled their kilt above their heads and it wouldn't notice them~:wacko:.
Anyway, I believe the Scottish aren't purposely weak, they just are there to provide a challenge for the more experienced player.
DukeKent
03-08-2007, 18:53
From what I can tell the Scots do not get infantry gunpowder units, or Longbowmen in vanilla (although the French do?). Seems like the game designers forgot that the "English" nobility were not anglo's but Norman conquerors (or Vikings if you will). If memory serves me correctly the Longbow came originally from Wales anyway. So it should be who ever held wales got the longbowmen. Be that conqueror the Normans, or who ever. Sounds like a great modding opportunity to me. Stripping infantry gunpowder units from the Scots also blows. ?A little prejudice here on the game designers part? These serious deficiencies kept me from playing the Scots much sooner. :embarassed: Shame, shame :embarassed: Despite these questionable decisions, I am finally playing and enjoying the Scots despite the questionable limitations placed on the Scots. It took some modding to remove some of the more ridiculous limitations like not getting the admiralty buildings :thumbsdown: I could go on, but I think you get the point.
1 thing to add: yes you can beat the Mongols with Scots.
Hvy Pike Militia are pretty arrow resistant. Noble Highland archers Ok, same range as HA and ok in melee (as long as not charged). Border Horse fast.
It's not cheap and it's not pretty but....
Put your Pikes in a horseshoe - i.e. make sure you have several units at flank and 1 to the rear. Pile your archers in the middle (with culverin if you have it). General safely in the middle.
The swarm come in: All your Pikes go red under fire. But they won't run and take fewer casualties than you first think under the hail. Meanwhile the NHA are returning fire. If you can turn your artillery on the mongol foot archers all the better.
Now here's the good bit: As long as you can hold firm the Mongols will charge you. Their big nasty general: Bam!! Shish kebab. Their HA, their lancers - all will just disintegrate against your Pikes. Once they've been sliced to ribbons, now you can send your cav against the Foot archers.
You do take losses but hvy pike militia are dirt cheap and available in Large (not even huge) cities.
Obviously if you're at a river or bridge then you can win with almost no losses at all. I had an entire mongol elite army charge into oblivion and didn't even rotate the two pike units holding the bridge (in a V to allow the mongols in a little, making the killing ground even sweeter). I lost almost nobody.
Quickening
03-08-2007, 19:42
*Is racked by the stinging jokes of the org lot*
FREEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM..... *dies*
But seriously, I don't really find any faction excessively harder than the next. As shallow as it sounds; they're all pretty much the same to me unless you are talking about horse archer armies which I find impossible to use.
But Scotland has an easy starting place at the corner of the world which was even easier before the AI started attacking overseas with patch 1.1.
_Aetius_
03-08-2007, 19:42
The Scots when controlled by the AI tend to survive in my experience but hardly ever expand by more than 1 or 2 provinces. The reason being it's imperative that the Scots expand very quickly otherwise they will simply go bankrupt or the English will become to powerful.
My most recent game as the Scots though has been a triumph so far, I believe the Scots have a great starting position, Inverness, Dublin, York and even Canaevon (sp?) can be swiftly occupied. The key is to steamroll the English before they have the chance to build up advanced units in England itself, I was able to conquer all of the rebel territories in Britain, reducing the English to Nottingham and London, thus badly stunting their growth. The English made early attempts on Canaevon and York but failed.
With an advanced army I was able to defeat the spear dominated English armies, take Nottingham and move onto London before the English could build up large armies. I ended up losing 800 men storming London which had a large garrison, i'd moved so fast that I was unable to develop siege equipment so had to storm as small english armies where starting to unite around me.
Once London fell I was rather rich and the English immediately sued for peace which I accepted. The problem that arises then is that because I was in close contact with the continent which I did not want to get involved with, the council of nobles immediately gave me missions in France and was eventually pulled into a major war in Europe.
Overall i've found the Scots to be a good all round faction, battles can be quite expensive in terms of causalties, but they are still strong which has pleasantly suprised me.
My favourite faction is still Milan at the moment though.
The real issue in how strong a faction appears to be to YOU is your own play style. After messing about with the western factions, I am trying Turkey. Wow. I love horse archers. Yeah, the oncoming hordes have me a bit worried, but I have loads of time still (only turn 27). I thought heroic battles were rare in M2TW. Well, they WERE. Now they aren't. And I'm going against armies that use horse archers too, not the poor footsloggers from the west. My main maneuver armies are pure HA with a general or two. Once the morale is wavering on enemy units, the generals make sure they exit. The only limit to how large an army I can defeat is my arrow supply. I really hate charging turkomen into spears, even wavering ones.
But I agree that the Scots can be surprisingly strong. I haven't played them yet, but have run into more than one Scottish meatgrinder. Pre-longbows, English armies are asking for heavy losses in tackling a large Scottish army on their own terrain. Or a whippin. I outmaneuver them on the strategic level when playing England now. I prefer to avoid the early heavy losses. Even so, cleaning up the rebels can smart. Pays to cut off the supply of highlanders immediately.
And I notice them doing pretty well in most games when I'm not England. Haven't seen them hop to the continent yet, but they usually own more of the isles than England does. I've see pure blue at least once. More often it's only Nottingham and London red. I think the AI England looks to the continent more. Bad early strategy.
_Aetius_
03-08-2007, 20:30
I think the AI England looks to the continent more. Bad early strategy.
I guess thats abit realistic since the Normans valued their French territories more than there English, but really the bigger threat is on the continent and the biggest rewards for expansion to. So it's not that suprising really, I know it's more sensible to consolidate England by taking York, but in someways it can be better to break the power of the French and then mop up the isles later.
the AI Scots have fought their way all the way to Dijon in my Byz campaign, and have attacked me in Milan. Not as a result of anything I have done as I've mostly been busy on the other side of the world.
Anyway, I don't think there's any meaningful comparison between what the AI does with a faction and how easy it is for a player.
Every faction I have tried can put together a stack that can consistently whoop the AI in battles, including the Scots.
In my experience, the biggest determinant of how difficult a faction is starting position. Corner factions like the Scots have only one front to worry about. You can essentially defend yourself against England with the same army you are attacking them with. If you play Venice or the Byzantines, on the other hand, you are going to be attacked by everyone from all directions, and you will have to make a lot of difficult calls about how thin a force you can get away with.
Marius Dynamite
03-08-2007, 21:40
Well Im Scottish (Glaswegian to be precise, which is very hard to spell.) and I think it's only fair to say that Scotland are naturally in a difficult position, since England were historically stronger...
But then again, this is for one simple reason, we never let the Romans in and they did, right? :2thumbsup:
Anyways if all human players were playing then I think you must remember that France would probably be keen enough to ally with the Scots with the common goal being the destruction of England. I mean, France knows that it is surrounded with the only reliable ally being the Scots and the most definite enemy being the English. Effectively it would be half the power of France and all of Scotland against England, with England being in a good position but surrounded nonetheless.
Im on my first scotish campaign right now and think its a really good faction so far. The lack of gunpowder units is lame and their special units aren't that special, but whatever.
Marius Dynamite
03-08-2007, 21:48
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ICGjffAfh98
Slightly off topic but it does explain the diplomatic situation Scots find themselves in the world...
_Aetius_
03-08-2007, 22:32
In my experience, the biggest determinant of how difficult a faction is starting position. Corner factions like the Scots have only one front to worry about. You can essentially defend yourself against England with the same army you are attacking them with. If you play Venice or the Byzantines, on the other hand, you are going to be attacked by everyone from all directions, and you will have to make a lot of difficult calls about how thin a force you can get away with.
Yeah Byzantium etc have a rough time, it's not unusual for the Venetians, Hungarians, Turks and Egyptians to declare war on Byzantium early on and it can be hard to fight on all fronts at once. However the empire is vast after you expand abit so it isnt as bad as a really small faction like Milan.
Your right though the Scots really only have one frontier to defend, so their small size isnt as relevant.
Yeah Byzantium etc have a rough time, it's not unusual for the Venetians, Hungarians, Turks and Egyptians to declare war on Byzantium early on
You left off Sicily and Milan. Sicily was actually the first to attack - in turn 5. And for reasons I don't quite undertand, the Moors seemed to really want Iraklion so they attacked too. I think I had 8 enemies by turn 35 or 40.
Even the Pope was landing troops on me.
Eventually I got attacked by Russia, Poland, HRE, Portugal, and Scotland too. And of course the Mongols.
hellblazer
06-11-2007, 00:05
First I'll address a point raised in a post just above this: If you apply a 2-Hander Fix you HAVE to make sure the Highland Noble are altered to fit the new 2-Hander balance, they where balanced to be competitive, (in relation to their price), with the bugged 2-handers and the shield bug in place. Fixing either of those requires a large power up of Highland Nobles to keep them in the same place in relation to other units in the other armies army. DEK will still win, but it will be a very close cut thing, AND the Highland Nobles are available a full 3 tiers earlier..
What do you suggest their values be changed to for single player? I am new to the game. I think that an expertly trained greatsword weilder should beat a polearm weilder like the british dfk. Granted the brit has better armor so I guess it means they should be roughly equal.
PrestigeX
06-11-2007, 00:22
Definantly it depends on what type of a general you are. I can easily see how the scottish faction has an army that isn't the best rounded. but i found them to be very reliable, pike units are my favourite, and the border horse are very fast and decent light cav. What i do for field battle is recruit a bunch of peasant archers cuz they are cheap, but with 5 units of them, they are a pest. I deploy them just to shoot up the enemy while in loose formation, doesn't relaly matter if they are getting whooped ny enemy archers because the idea is to draw out the enemy closer to my own troops. Usually all u have to do is get the enemy all tied up with ur pikemen, and send the border horse or highlanders to flank.
pike master
06-11-2007, 03:11
i have no trouble winning with the scots.
your border horse can outrun most horse archers and nerf most cavalry 1on 1
pikes can be used in any manner of ways to give victory against melee units.
dismounted fuedal knights will make excellent heavy infantry
even though the noble archers dont have long range missiles their arrows have good damage points.
Kaiser_Johan
06-11-2007, 10:10
The egyptians/turks/russians are the weakest imo, and the Danish are the best (by far the best units).
I'm playing a documented Scottish Campaign even as we speak, so this will give people a pretty good idea of just how weak Scotland is a starting faction.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=85754
So what does Scots have against their neighbour England? Nothing. They start out with one city, and outclassed in all of their units compared to England. Again, I know that if you play against AI, you can beat anything... but imagine if all the factions were played by human players. That's why I think Scots are the weakest faction in the game.
These points are valid but they can also be considered strengths as well as weaknesses.
True Scotland only has one city at the start of the game, but at the same time it has almost unchallengeable access to Inverness and Dublin which means that provided the player gets his priorities right it should very quickly have three cities.
It also has quick access to York and Caenarvon which ought to be reasonably easy to capture unless the English make Scotland their main opening target.
The big bonus for Scotland in the opening game is that it’s only viable opposition are the English, and the English have the big problem of having to defend on two opposing fronts and so can’t effectively mass their forces against the Scots.
This issue would not disappear even if the factions were player controlled, and in fact the problems for the English player would be even worse than those suffered by the Scottish. Imagine playing England with a Scottish player waiting to pounce on York, a French player waiting to pounce on Caen and a Danish player poised to land a besieging army on Nottingham and reclaim Northumberland.
Personally, I’d rather be the Scottish player, the victory conditions are pretty straight forward, its geo-political situation is simple and all you need to do is stab the English in the back every-time the French distract them.
Can I suggest you travel to Scotland, repeat all your comments in Glasgow on a Friday night.
I have actually been to Scotland and Glasgow. We took a holiday break at Hill House in Helensborough. My impression of Scotland was quite dissapointing in some respects. The scenery was astounding, but rarely seemed to be appreciated or respected by the Scots themselves, I was amazed to have dinner one evening in a restaurant overlooking Loch Lomond only to find that the restaurant had no windows facing the Loch that you could see through, which I found bizarre. I was also dissapointed that despite spending a day in Glasgow, I only saw one Scot wearing a kilt the entire week, and never heard a single bagpipe. I also drove past Glen Coe without even realising it due to lack of signage and ended up eating in a restaurant on the slopes of Ben Nevis with a line of Leylandii Cypress blocking my view of the mountain. Weird or what.
I hated Glasgow btw: very scary place especially along the river front. I was glad to get away from there, and I'm used to working in some of the bad area's of London.
I concluded that Peterborough on a Saturday is more proud to be Scottish than Scotland, at least there you can see a Scot wearing a kilt and playing the pipes, even if he problably comes from Northampton.
crpcarrot
06-11-2007, 15:01
I've always wanted to play as the Scots simply because I wanted to wage war with England. The problem is I just have a problem with continuing those campaigns because I just see Scotland conquering the whol Isle, let alone the world, as a tad too unrealistic.
HAHA
r u serious??
how can u ever play any faction then cos the whole concept of the game is not to conform to history but to change it
I've always wanted to play as the Scots simply because I wanted to wage war with England. The problem is I just have a problem with continuing those campaigns because I just see Scotland conquering the whol Isle, let alone the world, as a tad too unrealistic.
I know what you mean but the thing to remember is that the Stuart dynasty had as much claim to the English Throne as it did to the Scottish and so there is nothing outlandish about the idea of a Scottish monarch ruling a United Kingdom. In fact it might have happened if a double agent had not persuaded the Scots that London was heavily defended.
Beyond that point I found it hard in my campaign to justify an invasion of mainland europe. Historically, the French have always been good allies to Scotland and so I kept that alliance solid in my campaign to provide some historical credibility.
That does rather limit Scotlands options, but I found that by concentrating on trade in Africa and keeping in with the Pope I didn't need to invade mainland europe to survive and its only recently TURN 122 that I have been forced by papal edict to capture Toulouse.
BAH!
I love Scots and Scotland,that is it :2thumbsup:
Anyway,I don't think that Scots are weak,I played with them and crushed all Britain and north-east of Europe..Yes,England have good archers,but Scots have perfect pikemen !
Kobal2fr
06-11-2007, 18:01
I know what you mean but the thing to remember is that the Stuart dynasty had as much claim to the English Throne as it did to the Scottish and so there is nothing outlandish about the idea of a Scottish monarch ruling a United Kingdom. In fact it might have happened if a double agent had not persuaded the Scots that London was heavily defended.
Beyond that point I found it hard in my campaign to justify an invasion of mainland europe. Historically, the French have always been good allies to Scotland and so I kept that alliance solid in my campaign to provide some historical credibility.
That does rather limit Scotlands options, but I found that by concentrating on trade in Africa and keeping in with the Pope I didn't need to invade mainland europe to survive and its only recently TURN 122 that I have been forced by papal edict to capture Toulouse.
True.
There is however (well, to me at least) a "realistic" concern about building highlander units all over the place. They're called Highlanders for a reason, and how many sheep shaggers can there be up there, total ? :laugh4:
Yeah, yeah, I know, I could make believe that Highlanders recruited in Acre or Halych are really strong local peasantfolk taught to fight the MacWallace way... but where's the fun in that :clown:
@OP : Scots may be weak, but they wha hae, too. Whatever that means.
John_Longarrow
06-11-2007, 18:49
Hmmm...
So when is someone going to post how Scotland is weak?
Turn 1 they have a better army than the English have on the isle. They are in a better position to take York. They can move in and secure Caernarvon without much of a problem, but they do need to hurry up and take it before England does.
In the field, Scotland can pit its archers against the English archers with surprisingly good results. For some reason Longbowmen go down quickly to Scot archers that decide to CHARGE.
England does have better cav, but thats cav that has to face off against pikes. The Scots use their cav to chase routers and clear out missile troops that are being a pain.
Scots get good swords quicker than the English.
Scotland starts with 1 province and 1 boarder at the beginning. England has 3 and 2, respectively. Scotland though has 1 more rebel province that they can easily take, so the difference in starting provinces isn't much of an issue.
There is one area that England really dominates the Scots in. English pesants are far superior to their Scottish counterparts! :cool:
Matt_Lane
06-11-2007, 19:51
Beyond that point I found it hard in my campaign to justify an invasion of mainland europe. Historically, the French have always been good allies to Scotland and so I kept that alliance solid in my campaign to provide some historical credibility.
I think the game provides a great opportunity historically for what could have been. Play fast and loose with the time line and you could side with France in a European campaign, invade Holland and crown yourself King then set up a successful South American colony and buy England.
There is however (well, to me at least) a "realistic" concern about building highlander units all over the place.
Agreed, as a house rule I only trained highlanders in Inverness, which is strictly correct but it meant that Edinburgh was left to construct lowlanders.
Once into England I tended to stick to spearmen and dismounted knights. I even avoided training highland archers becuase it did not seem appropriate.
They're called Highlanders for a reason, and how many sheep shaggers can there be up there, total ? :laugh4:
Actually Highland clans kept cattle not sheep, your getting mixed up with the Welsh.:laugh4:
There were about 75 recognised Highland Clans, but exact population figures were not available until 1755 , when it was assessed as just over 1.2 million. The size of a clan could vary enormously but even a generous estimates of 2,000 warriors per clan only produces 150,000 in total.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I could make believe that Highlanders recruited in Acre or Halych are really strong local peasantfolk taught to fight the MacWallace way... but where's the fun in that :clown:
This really highlights the problems arising with the lack of regional troop variations in the game. The only way for armies to partially reflect local ethnic groups is to stick to recruiting mercenaries.
Kobal2fr
06-11-2007, 21:03
Actually Highland clans kept cattle not sheep, your getting mixed up with the Welsh.
Bah ! Sheep, cows, poultry, it's all pre-processed food to me anyway :grin:
This really highlights the problems arising with the lack of regional troop variations in the game. The only way for armies to partially reflect local ethnic groups is to stick to recruiting mercenaries.
True, but then again this downplays cultural variations in the factions themselves - every Western army in the levant would then be made up of Turcopoles and generic spearmen/DFKs/Xbow militas :shame:
I must say faction specific units being available everywhere doesn't bother me all that much as a general rule, and it's pretty much already downplayed by the fact that your best and most developped training centers will be where you started, thus your high level faction specific units will come from there anyway... It's just Highlanders that make me tick, probably because their appearance itself is very marked, while say Viking Raiders are just generic white dudes with axes.
CMcMahon
06-12-2007, 03:16
Sorry, but if you're fast as the Scots, you can easily take every rebel region in the British Isles before England even goes for Caernahon (sp.), leaving them with just Nottingham and London, which can be very easily neutralized if you hit Nottingham first.
Depends how distracted England are from their first target of York. They seem to always mess up their first attempt to take the city, so provived you get in before the second and they can't mass the troops to take it off you its not so difficult. Personally I went for Inverness first and let the English have York, but I got to Caenarvon before they did.
Funnily enough I'm have a much harder time playing Turkish at the moment, mainly because of poor trade income.
Daveybaby
06-12-2007, 11:43
I found it worked pretty well to blitz york -> nottingham -> london, to force the english out of britain completely, then go back and mop up the other rebel provinces at my leisure.
I don't know....I thought the Blitzkrieg concept came along eight centuries after MTW2.:laugh4:
But yes I suppose it makes sense. The only possible interference would be from the Danes but they tend to be a bit slow off the mark.
John_Longarrow
06-12-2007, 16:50
Didz,
I normally take York with my local general and some hired mercs. Works very well. It lets me move the rest of my army down to Caernarvon for a T4 siege. For some reason by that time the English normally have a large stack of peasants heading that way that gets kinda bogged down if you sit in the castle.
Then when the English look like they are going to move on York I march an army near Nottingham. I do this until I've got Caernarvon working just well enough to keep my highlanders and Highland archers resupplied, then its bye bye England.
alex9337
06-12-2007, 19:12
In my current campaign as the Scots I control over 60 regions ( I have aready won the game, just going for total domination ) and have even kicked the Mongols behind several times.
The Scots are my favourite faction.
Marius Dynamite
06-12-2007, 20:23
If it was an all human controlled campaign then the chances are England would manage to defeat Scotland. However back before history began to be recorded humans have been making deal with other humans for neutral gain. Nowadays we call it diplomacy.
All Scotland would have to do is ask for help from the human player who controls France. If all players are smart enough then the French player will realise that he must defeat England before it captures all of britain and becomes stronger than France, who will likely have more than enough trouble with Germans, Danes, Spanish, Milanese..
The English, of course, could make deals with some of Frances other enemies but at worst France would then make deals with the enemies of the factions England make deals with.
France's problem comes when Scotland has conquered all of Britain and becomes a new England. I suppose this is where diplomacy would need to be used to its full. Each player would realise they have everything to lose if they fight each other and would instead settle on a tribute from Scotland to France and Scotland would instead build for an attack on the Danish who would probably be in a position to invade and take Britain for themselves.
Its times like this I would love to see a multiplayer campaign :'(. Think of the diplomacy which would be involved!
Heinrich VI
06-13-2007, 11:44
Its times like this I would love to see a multiplayer campaign :'(. Think of the diplomacy which would be involved!
so true! it brought back memories of epic moo2 and civ2mp games. in these games diplomacy is everything. the most time consuming elements were not huge 1000+ ship battles in moo2 but several players constantly bargaining over disputed border worlds and trying to make the best offer to secure a potential ally against their arch enemy who dared to steal a technology - oh the fun!
Kobal2fr
06-13-2007, 12:58
Yeah, well, there's this little board game called, quite accurately, "Diplomacy". In this game, players play nations with conflicting goals but also needing each other to defeat a third party. Say, in your example France + Scotland vs England.
The thing is, the game Diplomacy never was about diplomacy. It's about figuring when's the right time to stab your allies in the back big time for maximum personnal gain :grin:.
And about as much mental time is spent each turn computing one's own plans as is spent figuring "ok, but what if he doesn't do what he says he will ? What if they ally against me ? What if he moves this army there and then..."
And so you take preventive measures to ensure that your "ally", no matter wether you have perfectly compatible goals and so on, doesn't do something utterly stupid that incidentally stuffs you big time.
All that to say : I wouldn't bet against England just because two humans playing Scotland and France are allied :)
Heinrich VI
06-13-2007, 13:33
yeah diplomacy is great! turns could take quite a while because everybody had to talk to almost everyone in different rooms all over my flat. the amount of treachery always resulted in a great game hrhr!
moo2 and civ2mp tended to be quite similar to diplomacy in this regard. we used to play with up to 6 players at my place in one big room. the different alliances tended to leave for different rooms to held their secret confereces for world/galaxy domination. spying was prohibited though hehe.
i would love to play mtw2 this way....
LAN!LAN! oh if it only had a LAN mp campaign option...
YankeeDoodle14
06-14-2007, 05:39
I know that this thread is about the AI, but when human played that Scots can be very effective.
I once played a campaign where first I shipped all of my (Scottish) troops over to Denmark, conquered all of Northern Europe, the French coast, and then shipped men from France to Southern Britain. I then proceeded to take over England from the bottom up. :smash:
rebelscum
06-14-2007, 10:49
maybe the AI scots do have a good chance of beating the English as
A) England commits to war with France.
B) England has fewer allies.
C) scotland Allies with France/Danes.
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