Roman Recruitment

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I guess I'm back to reporting bugs here...

I installed 0.81, but kept a version of 0.80 so that I could continue my Roman campaign. I'm in the Marian Era and almost in the Imperial Era, so I thought I would check out recruitment changes. I renamed my .80 UDB and copied in the .81 EDB, then loaded my game.

First off, I like the new unit options. (Not new units, just in more places and some that you could only previously get via briding the enemy.)
Second, in the Marian Era there seems to be something off.
-I can recruit Cohorts and Anstisigati(sp) everywhere, and I mean everywhere. Is this a change because of complaints that people had to ship their Roman units everywhere? Because I thought it was decided that they still had to be Romans in the Roman army at the time so was restricted to Italia.
-If that was on purpose, or regardless, I can't recruit Vigiles everywhere. There are a couple places missing but for the most part recruitment stops at mid Turkey and Syria. If I can recruit Legionaries in Armenia, seems I should be able to recruit Vigiles. Why not give Vigiles a single entry (per tier) in the EDB with no resources required?

I'll report again when I finally get my faction leader to die. (I've given him the plague, twice.)

[cunctator]

Current recruitment was planned since the early days and at least in the post marian cohorts case worked so in 0.74.

After the marian reforms in the times of the great civil wars the romans begun to recruit legionaries in masses outside of Italy were at this time a large number of roman citizens was available. Although in times of emergency the every legionary has to be citizen rule could be handled very flexible. Caesar recruited a legion from gaul, Pompeius several from romans in the east and his governors from former colonists in spain.

In the augustan era legionary recruitment from the provinces was widespread and traditional Italy south of the Po become less and less important. As you can see in the list 125 of 207 agustan legionaries from italy are already from the former province Gallia cisalpina, 127 recruited from all kind of provinces. During the principate recruitment finally shifted to border regions of the empire.

The known homelands of 335 legionaries from the augustan era:
https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7671/sta60013tr3.th.jpg (https://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sta60013tr3.jpg)

Originally it was planned to have a type 2 government, a heavily romanized province as condition for legionary recruitment, but since building conditions are not longer possible in 1.5 we had to just limit the legionary cohorts to province were you can build a type2.

Vigiles are not professional soldiers just militias from local cities and equipped by them. Outside of the west with it's latin coloies and romanized regions roman style vigiles wouldn't be appropriate. In the east there should be low level greek style militias.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Ok, I don't like it though.

Legionaries from Gaul were probably just from the Narbo area, not newly conquered places. I can now recruit legionaries in areas that were conquered just five years prior...

I think it should still be a core area. I problem is that there is no way of knowing what each individual Roman expansion's core will be. Historically it would have been Italy, Greece, Spain, and Africa. But based on the common AI expansion, it would be Germania.

They still had to be Roman citizen right? And therefore colonists and the rare civilized converts?

I'm probably just angry because I played the whole Marian Era (well my version of it (200BC-140BC)) having to ship the guys everywhere. :shame:

I guess due to the restrictions of the game and not knowing where there are and aren't Roman citizens, there is no other way... But if that is the case, why not just give cohorts one entry in the EDB so that it will load unmeasurable faster, since anywhere could be a core territory depending on which way you expanded...

EDIT: I've got an idea. The cohorts are currently available at tier level three, anstiginati at level four. Maybe bump up the distant recruitment. Like outside of the western Mediterranean area you can't recruit legionaries at level three...

[cunctator]

They still had to be Roman citizen right? And therefore colonists and the rare civilized converts?


Generally yes but they are exceptions. Caesar's legio Alaudae, that later become Legio V for example was originally formed completly from non citizens.
Suet. Caesar 24 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html)


Encouraged by this, he added to the legions which he had received from the state others at his own cost, one actually composed of men of Transalpine Gaul and bearing a Gallic name too (for it was called Alauda), which he trained in the Roman tactics and equipped with Roman arms; and later on he gave every man of it citizenship.


As you said R:TWs recruitment system is by far to unflexible to really accurately simulate recruitment practises and social changes over 300 years and give the player all the possibilities of historic generals, especially since the course of history can be very different from what happened in RL. Another example would be the static mercenaries.

Orignally it was indeed planned to have marian legionnaries available at lower MIC levels in the homeland than in the provinces but with the new system that was sadly not longer possible too. IT would eather require a new MIC just for Italy and we already ran out of building complexes or building condionals that can cause CTDs.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Orignally it was indeed planned to have marian legionnaries available at lower MIC levels in the homeland than in the provinces but with the new system that was sadly not longer possible too. IT would eather require a new MIC just for Italy and we already ran out of building complexes or building condionals that can cause CTDs.

It would be quite easy to do this. You just go into the EDB and delete all the cohorts from the third level recruitment that have the hidden_resources of non Italy and leave the ones with Italy hidden_resources. They will still be there on the fourth level.

[cunctator]

One reason to delay the dynamic reforms and have a minimum year requiremnt was to have some time between conquets and the availability of legionaries outside of italy, but after the specific reforms happened that is of ourse not longer the case.

The outside territories far away from Rome and Italy were excluded from legionary recruitment becasue romans will probably only conquer them very late in the campaign, thus don't have time to properly romanize them, especially since these provinces are often steppe or desert and simply very far away from the heartland of roman civilazition. And with such an big empire they will probably have enough resources for more manpower near the theatre of war at this time.

[cunctator]

It would be quite easy to do this. You just go into the EDB and delete all the cohorts from the third level recruitment that have the hidden_resources of non Italy and leave the ones with Italy hidden_resources. They will still be there on the fourth level.

Right, that would be possible. Very good idea! Only problem is that it can't be done automatically as the other recruitment lines.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Right, that would be possible. Very good idea!
Cool! Thanks for your comments, and indeed all your work. Please don't take anything I've said as insultive, for I have not meant it that way. Since I have to wake up in five hours I'd better get to sleep. :dizzy2:

[Amenophis]

Having a small problem with Roman recruitment. Seems I can train Polybian units everywhere I am supposed to except for Rome. Have upgraded the barracks twice since the reforms and still can only train Camillian units. The city tab is also missing the "Polybian Military Era" card.

Another recruiting oddity. I can train Hastati, Triarii and Velites at Patavium but can't train Princepes.

Running .81 with BI.exe btw.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Well, I've had the Imperial Era long enough that I have seen some recruitment bugs and questions. First bugs.
-I cannot recruit any avxilia spearmen in Sidon (which also has no regionals).
-I cannot recruit any avxilia spearmen in Sinope. There are also no archers in Sinope, since there are in Trapezous and Cappadocia I was wonder in there should be archers avxilia in Sinope (or maybe not in Trapezous).
-I cannot recruit avilia spearmen in Kallatis (there are archers avxilia there, though).
-There are archers auxila in Naissos (western thrace), this seems out of place seeing as there are none in Dacia.

I like the devision of east-west avxilia. With eastern in asia minor and cyrene eastward and western in thrace and tripoli westward. But with the little difference of greece having eastern spearmen. Except Epirus has western spearmen... intensional?

I haven't gotten imperial legionaries yet, but the places that are lacking avxilia seem to still get legionaries in the next tier.

One thing I noticed was that the top level of Marian MIC could upgrade to the top level of the Augustan MIC. This was good for my homelands, but in many of the secondary core areas (NItaly and the nearby island) I only had L4 MICs so I had to tear them down and build all the way up to L4 Avgvstan MICs. Thankfully, I had purposely not build the highest possible in the majority of my empire. If more people someday get the the Imperial Era, this could cause a lot of confusion / annoyance.

[cunctator]

Another recruiting oddity. I can train Hastati, Triarii and Velites at Patavium but can't train Princepes.




-I cannot recruit any avxilia spearmen in Sidon (which also has no regionals).
-I cannot recruit any avxilia spearmen in Sinope.


Is fixed, hopefully already in the upcomming hotfix if the recruitment coders have had the time.



Having a small problem with Roman recruitment. Seems I can train Polybian units everywhere I am supposed to except for Rome. Have upgraded the barracks twice since the reforms and still can only train Camillian units. The city tab is also missing the "Polybian Military Era" card.


I could find no error in code. Has anybody else this problem? Or do you have renamed the city of Roma?




There are also no archers in Sinope, since there are in Trapezous and Cappadocia I was wonder in there should be archers avxilia in Sinope (or maybe not in Trapezous).


More likely Trapezous will be removed. Archers from Pontus weren't really common in roman armies, I think only mentioned once.



-There are archers auxila in Naissos (western thrace), this seems out of place seeing as there are none in Dacia.

There are many attested archer units in the imperial army of the principate from thrace but none from dacia, thus these provinces were not included in the eastern archer auxilia recruitment area.



-I cannot recruit avxlia spearmen in Kallatis (there are archers avxilia there, though).

I like the devision of east-west avxilia. With eastern in asia minor and cyrene eastward and western in thrace and tripoli westward. But with the little difference of greece having eastern spearmen. Except Epirus has western spearmen... intensional?


No.




One thing I noticed was that the top level of Marian MIC could upgrade to the top level of the Augustan MIC. This was good for my homelands, but in many of the secondary core areas (NItaly and the nearby island) I only had L4 MICs so I had to tear them down and build all the way up to L4 Avgvstan MICs. Thankfully, I had purposely not build the highest possible in the majority of my empire. If more people someday get the the Imperial Era, this could cause a lot of confusion / annoyance.

So you can't upgrade any other marian MIC to any augustan MIC than lvl 5?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There are many attested archer units in the imperial army of the principate from thrace but none from dacia, thus these provinces were not included in the eastern archer auxilia recruitment area.
Hmm, interesting. Seemed odd, Naissos was the only place that was neither eastern nor horse-archer areas.

So you can't upgrade any other marian MIC to any augustan MIC than lvl 5?
はい
I can go Marian1>Augustian2, M2>A3, M3>A4, M4>A5, and M5>A5. But in territories with type2 governments and maxed out MIC (L4MIC), I had to tear down my MIC and start again. (And type3 with L3MIC.) I can't really see any solultion to this except some sort of weird intertwinded building tree (that may not even be possible), that makes each MIC level upgrade to both the next level Avgvstian as well as the same level Avgvstian. I guess it is just an annoyance that I'll have to deal with.

[cunctator]

Oh good to hear. Augustan MIC 5 (which only give you the heaviest ballista and recruitable generals with my mod) should be available with type 2 governments.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I think I can only get L4 in type2's. Even with the 081...

[cunctator]

Yes, it's a bug. It will be fixed, hopefully it can still be included in the hotfix.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Ok, thanks for your time and answers. I might have something to whine about when I get legionaries, :juggle2: so I may report again then. I think that's all...

Oh yeah, kind of related: There is no unit card/pictue for the Preatorian Cavalry.

[Amenophis]

I could find no error in code. Has anybody else this problem? Or do you have renamed the city of Roma?



I did rename Roma to Rome. I guess this is what caused the problem? Better switch the name back before the Marian reforms, though it is kinda nice to have a place I can retrain my Camillan units.

[cunctator]

Yes, the script looks for a city named Roma and places a reform building there, if it does not already exist. If you rename cities the script can't recognize them anymore.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

If you rename 'Rome' to 'Roma', it will probably place the reform building at the end of the next turn.

[Kull]

Yes, it's a bug. It will be fixed, hopefully it can still be included in the hotfix.

Yep, we'll get it in. That was a nice catch, btw. We had a "logic hole" when the upgrade path was developed, in that we took pains to allow for upgrading the top tier MIC, but just never thought about what happens when MICs cap out below L5.

[sass]

Can you get romans strongest in any province? Historicly thay recurted legenarys all over the empire is this possible? Or was that later in the roman era?

And I use money cheats sometimes do i still have to distroy some barricks when im fully maxed out and upgraded before the reforms..?? Or are thay like all other factians and just build them and after the pop up thay just mysterisly apper in the recrutment screan?

I have not played them sence the new patch..thanks guys:duel:

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Yep, we'll get it in. That was a nice catch, btw. We had a "logic hole" when the upgrade path was developed, in that we took pains to allow for upgrading the top tier MIC, but just never thought about what happens when MICs cap out below L5.
So the only place where you can possibly max-out a MIC is a type3 or type4 government? And since I don't believe any 'Alliance' locations have any auxilia cavalry, there would only be Vigiles (if that) and there would be no need to max out type3 goverments locations to highest MIC (L3MIC). ( < Run-on sentence.) Maybe, don't allow L3MIC in type3 governments until the Imperial Era, is what I'm getting at.

Can you get romans strongest in any province? Historicly thay recurted legenarys all over the empire is this possible? Or was that later in the roman era?

And I use money cheats sometimes do i still have to distroy some barricks when im fully maxed out and upgraded before the reforms..?? Or are thay like all other factians and just build them and after the pop up thay just mysterisly apper in the recrutment screan?

I have not played them sence the new patch..thanks guys:duel:
During the Camilian, you'll be stuck with middle Italy. During the Polybian, Italy. But after the Marian reforms, you can recruit legionaries everywhere (something I would prefer a little more restriction to). In the Imperial Era, you can recruit legionaries and tons of auxilia all over the place. This is something I like and have no arguement with.

---

A question about the auxilia archers though. With the 080 build I have 242 men per unit (huge scale). This is huge compared to other archer groups, though I like it since they are also killing machines. Is it still this way in 081? If so, intentionally? (I could probably go with two units per legion now instead of four missile units.)

[sass]

Good..Thank you..After i get sick of the greeks ill go for the romans again..

Q. Can you keep the old units from the early game and at the same time get the new reform units? some of them are nice looking i love the samnites..i miss the old samnite med spearmen though not sure why that skin was replaced to the kinda duel looking one all white:inquisitive: the yellow and gold colors are my fav..i like the dark colors in this game and who said RTR had more eye candy:laugh4: I wish rodian slingers where in the game and as mercs all of the east like the baltric or whatever are on the west..i kinda wish there where more in north africa and europe..I just only wish the AI was more active in 0.81 as it was in 08, i play on veryhard easy..and the ai dose little on the map..justs sets around untill half the game is over then moves lol

Anyways keep up the good work..:egypt:

[Kull]

So the only place where you can possibly max-out a MIC is a type3 or type4 government? And since I don't believe any 'Alliance' locations have any auxilia cavalry, there would only be Vigiles (if that) and there would be no need to max out type3 goverments locations to highest MIC (L3MIC). ( < Run-on sentence.) Maybe, don't allow L3MIC in type3 governments until the Imperial Era, is what I'm getting at.

I'm totally confused. :dizzy2: But the key point is that it's fixed and the fix was simplicity itself.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I'm totally confused. :dizzy2: But the key point is that it's fixed and the fix was simplicity itself.
I usually do that, even when talking in person. What I meant was if you have a type1, you can max out Marian L5MIC - this can upgrade to Imperial L5MIC. If you have a type2, you can max out to Marian L4MIC - this will be upgradable to Imperial L5MIC. If you have a type3, you can max out to Marian L3MIC - this you have to tear down to build back up to Imperial L3MIC.

[cunctator]

No not anymore, all barracks can now be upragded horizontaly. So a Marian L3MIC can be upgraded to Imperial L3MIC to aviod this problem.

[cunctator]

Outside of the type 2 gov. areas you can't get vigiles or legionaries or artillery only some imperial auxilia (at least in theory). Auxiliary cavalry (Ala) in the most of the east and the steppe, eastern archer auxilia and eastern auxliary infantry in most non steppe or desert region in the east.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I just had an idea concerning my dislike of getting Marian legionaries everywhere. Maybe to simulate the need for Roman citizens, you could delare that the settlements owned at the time of the reform are the core of the republic. Then only those settlements can make legionaries, not future conquests. It would be easy to do. Either, have the script run only once, placing Marian Era buildings and the new MIC in areas that are owned at that time. New settlements can't get the new Era building and thus not the factional MIC. Or, place the Polybian Era building as a requirement for the Marian Era MIC. This would mean that you can only build them in regions that were held during both eras (autoplacement would have to be disabled). Just an idea, though if you are set on having them in all areas, I'll shut up.

[cunctator]

The problem is that the marian era factional MIC also recruits the new marian era auxilia units that shoud not be limited by the number of romans present, and we don't have space for yet another roman MIC complex

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Well, then make sure all Legionaries are restricted to L4MIC, then make L4MIC require the Polybian Era building...

[cunctator]

I've removed marian legionaries level 3 recruitment outside of homeland provinces in the next, hotfix comaptible version of my minimod.

Until the next full Eb version there is probably several months time. You have to talk to the building people and scripters to work out a feasible solution. Polybian and marian era reform buildings are both sepearte levels in one complex for example, I don't think you can have both in one settlement.

[Foot]

Until the next full Eb version there is probably several months time. You have to talk to the building people and scripters to work out a feasible solution. Polybian and marian era reform buildings are both sepearte levels in one complex for example, I don't think you can have both in one settlement.

In fact you can have both, due to the rather awesomely bad bit of scripting on CA's part. The spawn building command does not allow you upgrade a building to the next level, if the lower level is already in the same settlement, instead it spawns a completely new version of building complex, set to the correct level you want to be spawned. So, after completing all the reforms for EB, you will find that there will be four reform buildings in Rome, for example, one for each of the four levels.

Foot