Challenges of XL

[bamff]

Inspired by King Kurt's queries re: the Teutonic Order, and having read of a number of players singing the praises of the challenges afforded by Portugal, what are the more challenging of the "new" factions introduced in XL?

[Deus ret.]

Portugal, as you mentioned. Good strategic position but rather small and not too rich.

Serbia, although some people claim it's actually quite easy in High. In early it's nigh impossible because neither the Hungarians nor the Byz are particularly weak, to say the least.

Ireland! Poor lands with some unique and interesting units. Of course no uber cav to ram foes into the ground but still...

Armenia. My personal favourite of the small ones. They have good units (esp. Armenian infantry and those knights ...Naxarars?.... are also excellent), but they are in the unenviable position of being surrounded by larger powers. It's essential to establish a foothold in the beginning; this means battling the Turks, the Byz and probably the Crusaders, who often grow powerful after finishing Egypt. Oh, and did I mention other crusades coming your way? Or the threat of the Horde (it appeared largely in Georgia when I played the faction)? In any case I recommend them if you're in for a challenge and some turbulences.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Ireland and Armenia in Early (Ireland is only available in early) are tough to play with, due to their small size and strong neighbors. The Volga Bulgars have better chances of Expansion, but later have to face the full might of the Horde. Portugal and Serbia are manageable.
Actually, I have discovered Sweden and Poland to be relatively tough. The Polish can expand rapidly against the HRE and then take advantage of the war between the Cumans and the Hungarians, but then have to deal with really powerful enemies on all fronts - the Byzantines or the Fatimids in the South, the Danes in the North, the Kievans or Novgorodians in the East (their troop rosters are a bit overpowered in early) and the French in the West. Later of course the Horde comes.
Sweden is tough, because it is surrounded by hostile neighbors. The Danes have a better starting position, and the Lithuanians will go out of their way to sink every boat you put in the Baltic, even if they are your allies. Norway will resist until the end, often managing to get you excommunicated.

But finally, if you really want an impossibly difficult campaign, try the Volga Bulgars in High and see if you can survive past 1240. I do not think I have ever been able to.

[Martok]

In the Early period, the Armenians are definitely the hardest, with the Irish being a close second. Kavhan Isbul already laid out the reasons why as well or better than myself, so I'll not repeat him. ~:)

Norway's fun, but I find them to pretty much be a one-trick pony: Far and away the easiest thing to do is take out the Swedes right away, and preferably the Danes as well. Otherwise, you'll quickly go bankrupt trying to build ships and develop trade. Fortunately, blitzing Scandanavia isn't hard -- since you can churn out those wonderful +1 Vikings -- but it does make the Norwegians a bit one-dimensional.

Definitely my two favorites thus far are the Bohemians and Portuguese. They both start with only one province, and are in a precarious strategic position at the beginning. One must find a balance between boldness and caution when playing as either of these two factions. :yes:

[Eternity]

When I first started XL, I found the HRE to be quite challenging. I took Venice early in the game, which resulted in a war on all fronts early in the game. The campaign didn't stablize until I secured some fleets in the Mediterranean, but after that it was quite easy.

I also decided to give Volga Bulgars in High a try after reading a post by Kavhan Isbul about how they're the hardest faction, and boy was he right. Starting from 1205, you only get 25 years before the Mongol Hordes comes charging in, which means I had to meta-game and run far from those border lands, or else I'll be slaughtered. In my first try, when the Mongols finally came, they took Volga Bulgaria and Muscovy from me, and when I was stuck in Novgorod, the Teutonic Order came storming in with their 5 units of knights and finished me off. I had better luck on my second try, and was able to last well into the Late period, although I only had a handful of provinces, at which point I got bored and just left the campaign sitting at that point. But if you want a challenge, definitely try this faction.

[Don Esteban]

I'm playing bohemia right now and it's certainly very challenging - a mix of trying to grab territory while avoiding being steamrollered by more powerful neighbours.

[r johnson]

Serbia in Early period;
Positioned between the Byzantiun (how do you spell?) and Hungarian empire theres not far to expand. Though because of this it makes it more fun.

Personally I fount Ireland to be fairly easy. Expand the navy and attack Brittany - where the French can't defend easily - and you've got a good economic starting point, you could attack Wales if you so wished but it's again opinion.

[naut]

Bulgaria. I'm useless at playing as them to boot.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Bulgaria. I'm useless at playing as them to boot.

I have found Bulgaria to be of moderate difficulty in XL, especially in High when Constantinople is easy to be taken and its income ensures a bright future for any faction that gets to control it. Greece is also rebel, and Serbia is just a 1-province faction, likely to be your ally and get in war with the Hungarians. The only potentially difficult moment is the arrival of the Horde, but there are plenty of rivers on the way, and the Bulagrians have access to arbalesters and halbardiers (which IMO is not quite historically accurate, especially as far as arbalesters are concerned). Add to that Slav Javelinmen and you are invincible in bridge defense situations, then add the Boyars and the Bulgarian Heavy Infantry and you have a nice all-around roster with some extras such as Vlach Mercenary Cavalry and Bulgarian Cavalry (basically Byzantine Cavalry).

Now I never thought of getting Brittany with the Irish as initial target for expansion, but it is a pretty good idea actually.

[Innocentius]

Speaking a bit about Bulgaria, does anyone know just exactly how good Bulgarian Armoured Pikemen are? And how historically accurate they are? I have checked their stats and for what I can tell they're basically slightly lesser counterparts to Swiss Armoured Pikemen, but stats don't prove very much IMO, and I don't have any real battle experience of them.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Speaking a bit about Bulgaria, does anyone know just exactly how good Bulgarian Armoured Pikemen are? And how historically accurate they are? I have checked their stats and for what I can tell they're basically slightly lesser counterparts to Swiss Armoured Pikemen, but stats don't prove very much IMO, and I don't have any real battle experience of them.

Historically, they make as much sense as a fantsay unit of English Horse Archers with composite bows would - none at all. Viking Horde probably wanted to give it to the Bulgarians for balancing issues. I avoid building them, but consider this - the best spear unit the Bulgarians have apart from them is armored spearmen, which have trouble holding the line against Chivalric Knights and Mongol Heavies.

[Wasp]

I tried the Irish and the Scots first with XL, and I second (or third) the opinion that Ireland is hard. You will have a small budget to work with, so it is vital to grab some extra land early. The English can lose some easily if you're smart, and Wales should be relatively easy as well (you could also bribe the Longbowmen, gives you some really good units 100+ years before they arrive).

The Scots are a tad easier, since they can conquer Northumbria easily (in my games, the English usually run right away, even if the odds are slightly in their favor). I usually grab Wales with a bribe as well. From there, slowly expand to get all of Great Britain and Ireland, and then look either to Scandinavia (if you're quick enough, the Norwegians will only have one province, and should be quite an easy take) or the coast of France.

I'm currently enjoying a great Scottish campaign. I have Great Britain (but not Ireland), Brittany, Flanders and Friesland. Playing GA, of course.

[King of Bavaria]

I'm only playing Xl mod (when I'm not playing the viking scenario), I think it is generally more challenging, especially because of those aggressive one-province-starters.
The situation for the HRE is even bader then normal, I did never see them surviving as an empire for long. Bohemia seems to attack them always, one more enemy!
I've only tried the Scots as a new faction, and I'm enjoying my current early campaign with them.
Both times I started as the Scots in early, I had to wait until my ships produced enough trade to build a small army. Then I took over Scandinavia, kicking out Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
As the next step I just had to wait for the war between French and English, as the chance to take the whole Island, or as it's now called: "Greater Scotland"

Now I'm in e very nice situation: A couple of nice provinces, great trade potential, and nice upgraded troops (including huscarles) from sweden and just one border to defend!

Scots are nice to play!

I think armenia is very difficult to play, I never tried, but I did never see them surviving without re-entry.

[naut]

The Scots are good fun, I tend to take Pomerania/Prussia early on too.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I think I managed to start a successful campaign with the Volga Bulgars in High, Expert. Here is a screenshot in 1236:

https://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l9/kavhan/VolgaBulgaria1236.jpg?t=1173601806

It was easier than expected - I invaded Ryazan with pretty much all I had on the second turn (had to build watchtowers to see what is there) and it was easy - there are only HAs in Ryazan and a unit of archers - just ran them over with my BRC and 1 unit of Steppe Cavalry, did not lose a man. Next turn stormed the fort with few casualties. From the very beginning I started churning out Bashkorts because of the low cost and versatility, and I built an Inn in Volga Bulgaria. After training a few units of Cherniye Klobuki mercenaries finally showed up. I hired almost all of them and invaded Moscow, as I did have any time to waste. At the same time the Russians decided to invade Ryazan and for some reason caught half my army there with the Khan. They only left a unit of UM and a unit of crossbowmen in Moscow, making the battle too easy and allowing me to avoid the siege. The battle in Ryazan was tough, as they had two units of Boyars and some halbardiers, but I won, despite giving more casualties - it was something like 550 to 500, but the Bashkorts carried the day and the Russians were effectively blitzed.
Then I allied with the Novgorodians and as they transferred their troops to Smolensk (the AI sometimes really believes in alliances) I broke the alliance and invaded Novgorod. Very tough battle, but the Bashkorts came through again. A Druzhina infantry unit really gave me a hard time and I only managed to rout them once they got exhausted. The Novgorodians never counterattacked, so I stormed and took the fortress quickly and then I stopped, preparing for the Mongols, training Bashkorts and Kazanchis as crazy.
My plan was to put two units of Kazanchis in Volga Bulgaria together with a 3 star prince to boost them a little. Then I intended to hold out indeffinitely using the bridge between Volga Bulgaria and Moscow. I put two boats in the Baltic just in case and as it turned out, right in time. The Swedish attacked me and lost the naval battle, which caused the Russians to attack me in Ryazan breaking an alliance (we were allied by then, things change quickly). I decided to leave them Ryazan and make them defend it from the Horde, and it payed off. With the Swedish main army in Finland and their single boat gone, their homeland was an easy grab and I took it just to have a shelter in case the defense against the Horde went really bad.
The Horde appeared in 3 provinces, with only several stacks in Khazar and the other two provinces I guess were Georgia and Armenia, since I could not see them. That helped! The same turn the Novgorodians and the Swedish launched an allied invasion in Novgorod, which resulted in a great defeat for both of them, and especially for the Novgorodians, for whom it was the end as all their royalty was killed. I was able to win thanks to two 6 valor units of BRC (and the Bashkorts, again). The Horde invaded Volga Bulgaria and I simply withdrawed to the castle, as planned. Their first attempt to assault ended in a humiliating defeat thanks to the inadequateness of the AI, but at the end it managed to kill quite a few of my troops with massed missile fire. Then the AI assaulted one more time the next turn, even though the castle was about to fall anyway and I just autocalculated the battle, and this was the first battle I lost. But I finished off the Swedish and took Smolensk from the rebels.
Now it appears the Horde will go no further, and I am building a Jihad in Novgorod as I plan to retake my only homeland. The Danes will probably attack me in Sweden, I just wonder why they have not done it yet. I guess the Order which has been sitting quietly in Livonia, amassing Teutonic Knights, will also attempt an attack on Novgorod sooner or later - I have a slim hope they might choose to attack the Lithuanians instead. Thanks to conquest I am leading in GA points, and I actually think I have a chance this time - I just need to take care of my neighbors one by one. This is the first time I see the Horde appear in 3 provinces, neither of which included Volga Bulgaria. I was deffintely lucky the main impact was south. Still a long way to go.

[Digital]

Nice Influence there. I may try Volgar Bulgar when I finish the Cuman campaign. I find the range of soldier that the Cuman can build is quite limited. Another interesting game will be the Armenian.

[Tony Furze]

I ve just (re) started a game as Serbia on Normal / Early. Its highlighting the chess like nature of the whole game. With a small initial army Im having to choose units wisely, and be careful who I have to shuffle around to initiate an early expansion.

[Galagros]

I tried doing something different as Norway because it's too easy to take all of Scandinavia or all of the British Isles. I instead invaded Friesland and from there continued to pick away at the HRE. It wasn't easy because my army was tiny, but luckily most of the HRE's units are spearmen in the begining. This plan basically made me go bankrupt, which meant I had to sit around in 4-5 provinces until I made some money.

Eventually after 2-3 failed attacks on my part I lost 2 provinces and ended up defending for a long time. By the time I was strong enough to attack again without leaving myself undefended, the Castillian-Leonese had almost obliterated the French and were on my doorstep!

[_Aetius_]

I've been destroyed as Portugal before on XL, through no fault of my own really,the Almohads simply overpowered my army before I had a chance develop much at all.

I've also never mastered the Holy Roman Empire on XL, I believe the empire shares borders with 7 or 8 other factions on Early, Bohemia, Poland (not sure about Poland in XL havent played it in awhile), Hungary, Venice, France, Denmark, Croatia and Genoa. Whether its 7 or 8 it's an enormous task to be able to hold the empire together for any length of time. All it requires is for the usual war with France to get underway, the usual Danish raids into Saxony and for just 1 other faction (usually Hungary) to invade you in the east and there simply aren't enough armies to hold onto everything.

Often I find myself up against atleast 5 factions at once, civil war is inevitable in those circumstances, there just isnt a strong enough financial base to raise the necessary armies and develop the provinces with the mere basics such as watch towers and farming. I think the HRE wasn't given enough care when XL was developed as 3 new factions had been added which shared it's borders (counting the Venetians as Italians here) the HRE is in a dangerous position in vanilla, in XL it's almost impossible to avoid a 3 front war which you almost always lose. It's a situation where I win the battles, but still lose the war.

It's obviously possible to be a success with them, but they are a frickin nightmare to play as early on whatever happens.

I hate playing the really small factions in MTW, because I think it's boring how sometimes a small faction which has no place being a superpower owns half the map. It's silly seeing small factions rampage around the map, simply because it isnt realistic and their armies aren't really suited to being a huge empire.

[bamff]

So many options....I can't wait to wrap up my English campaign so that I can move on to the world of XL!

[King Kurt]

As an XL new boy, I have got to say that part of the fun is not only all the new factions to play, but the fact that you have to alter your style of play to reflect the changes that have occured in the mod. In vanilla MTW/VI I had developed a style of play which was a quick land grab at the begining of the campaign, then a small turtle while you built up your empire and in particular your trade empire. Then, when you had a cash reserve you embarked on a rapid expansion which normaly sparked a cash crisis due to your trade dropping off, but you overcame that by the addition of many new provinces. In XL, with trade being devalued, you have to take a more circumspect approach. In my first campaign I am adopting a small bite approach where you take a little, regroup then take a little more. Instead of a blitzing steamroller approach, you have to plan a bit more, constantly regrouping and repairing your forces. You also have to be a bit more careful in which province you go for - their financial output is much more important. So all in all, it has made it a good game even better and richer in its depth.

[Martok]

Yeah, when I first picked up XL I discovered that my beloved Egyptians could no longer be played in the same way as in the vanilla game. (My old tactic of bum-rushing the Turks out of Syria right away no longer worked so well!) One of the reasons XL is so enjoyable is that everyone's opening moves -- whether they're one of the new factions or one of the originals -- tends to be less predictable than before. :2thumbsup:

[Roark]

I've become officially addicted...

Going into battle with Hospitaller foot Knights was previously a very rare joy indeed. Now I can match them up against the best troops of 7 or 8 different factions at a moment's notice.

Peasant exclusion = good.

[General Dazza]

You're right Aetius about HRE as being difficult on XL, but I don't think it's too hard.

I'm playing my second XL HRE game on early, and have just started to get on top in about 1200, but it's taken a long while. My first game I was excommed and then invaded by just about everyone and their aunt Martha.

I think the main thing to do early is to build your forces while not being attacked. In this game Hungary attacked early, as did France and also Italy. I managed to take terrotories of france while ceding Austria and Bavaria (iirc) to Hungary. I managed to hold the lines there until I attacked Italy's provinces. I eventually pushed Italy off the continent only by wiping out the pope at the same time (every time I touched Italy he threatened excomm).

Now it's 1200ish, I've just killed off Hungary and England's King sits in Sweden. I've also just taken Serbia and Greece off the Byzzies, who were eventually beaten down by the eggies.

It's been a really tough game - but also fantastic.

If there's one thing to do as HRE it is NOT to be excommed. But XL is absolutely fantastic.

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, General Dazza! Glad you're enjoying the HRE in XL. ~:cheers:

[Deus ret.]

It's been a really tough game - but also fantastic.

If there's one thing to do as HRE it is NOT to be excommed. But XL is absolutely fantastic.

I agree, although I have to add that despite beating the faction in MedMod (somewhat more difficult than XL), for some reason I never managed to survive with the HRE in XL for more than around 20 years - admittedly I started in High but I thought it wouldn't make such a difference.

What were your strategies?

[General Dazza]

Can't find how to quote in this forum, but in response to What were your strategies?

The thing I learnt from my first aborted attempt was that you can't be too aggressive. So I basically didn't attack anyone until attacked myself, and tried to build up some decentish troops along the major borders.

When I was attacked, I'd only defend the province if I was very sure of winning. Otherwise I'd retreat to the fort/castle etc, and attack in more numbers next turn. When I realised that I was fighting a losing war against Hungary and their :wall: javelins/cavalry combo, I ceded Austria and the province to the north and tried to put them off further attacks by consolidating in strength in the next provinces.

I think you need luck too though - Denmark didn't attack with their vikings etc and neither did Poland.

Once I'd managed to develop a bit of a stalemate, I used the time to build up troop quality. I attacked Italy when my money was running out and needed more provinces to boost income. But I stopped when the pope threatened excomm. I also took advantage of the weird thing that if you're threatened with excomm with one enemy and obey, you'll usually be able to attack another threat-free.

I think France is the main opportunity, because they don't have the quality of troops as Italy/Hungary/Denmark iirc, and if you can get Flanders you can boost your income.

The thing that really did it for me though was when I finally got into a position (after many grinding battles and regular ceding of provinces) to finish of Italy, I killed the Pope too so I could remove the inevitable excomm quickly. I also got lucky there because Italy put 2500 troops in Provence and I managed to isolate it and defeat it.

Sorry for long post but I hope that helps - I guess to summarise I placed an importance in maintaining troop numbers, gradually wore down enemies and took advantage of lucky breaks.

[Martok]

I think you need luck too though
With the HRE, that often is the case. :yes: I don't play as the Germans that often, but almost every time I have, I've had to hold on for dear life the first 10-20 years and hope I don't get ganged up on by too many factions at once. Once my provinces are built up somewhat and I can churn out a decent number of troops, life starts to get easier for me.

I also agree the "French option" is generally the best one to take -- their lands are decent, and are often pre-occupied with the English. I discovered, however, that my *favorite* choice is to expand south over the Alps. There are of course enormous risks involved (attacking over mountains, the threat of excommunication, etc.), but the lands of northern Italy are wealthy enough that they often make up for those risks.

(That said, I don't really recommend it, unless you're sure you can pull it off. ~;) )


Can't find how to quote in this forum
On the bottom right of each post is a "QUOTE" tab. All you have to do is click on it. :beam:

[Derfasciti]

It seems that any Scandanavian county, but especially Norway can be somewhat difficult to play. Expansion into the rest of Scandanvia will be hard but early expansion is pretty necessarry as eventually your military will outweigh any possible income you can make from one or two provinces.

[Kavhan Isbul]

It seems that any Scandanavian county, but especially Norway can be somewhat difficult to play. Expansion into the rest of Scandanvia will be hard but early expansion is pretty necessarry as eventually your military will outweigh any possible income you can make from one or two provinces.

Unfortunately with Norway it is way too easy. The Swedish always start by building a boat, so you can quickly produce more troops than them, plus your heir matures a year earlier if I am not mistaken. Just invade, and they will vanish without a fight.

The Danes are pretty easy, only the Swedes are somewhat harder to play. The trick is to invade your Scandinavian neighbors, as it is next to impossible to establish a foothold on the Southern and Eastern shores of the Baltic.

[Martok]

It seems that any Scandanavian county, but especially Norway can be somewhat difficult to play. Expansion into the rest of Scandanvia will be hard but early expansion is pretty necessarry as eventually your military will outweigh any possible income you can make from one or two provinces.
Ironically, it is exactly for that reason I find the Scandanavian factions easy to play. If you're to survive *and* remain solvent (~;)), you have no choice but to expand immediately. The Norwegians are particularly easy, as you just move through the Scandavian provinces clockwise. After that, you have the choice between expanding southwards into the HRE or putting boats in the water (for trade and/or invasion of Britain). Either way, the strategy for the Scandanavian factions are almost always simple and straightforward.

[Derfasciti]

True, luckily I'm a noobie to XL and can make a mistake like that:laugh4:

[General Dazza]

With the HRE, that often is the case. :yes: I don't play as the Germans that often, but almost every time I have, I've had to hold on for dear life the first 10-20 years and hope I don't get ganged up on by too many factions at once. :

That's one of the things I like about HRE. You can't just build up your forces and then steamroll. You have to be respectful and a bit more circumspect. It's one of the few times I've felt I really needed to use diplomacy. Having said that, I haven't played that many campaigns yet - this is just my 3rd - and I've yet to play GA. So I hope to be in this position more often.


On the bottom right of each post is a "QUOTE" tab. All you have to do is click on it. :beam:

Got it! Thanks Martok! :2thumbsup:

[Vladimir]

If you're going to play HRE I suggest that you mod them a little and add a few buildings. If not then you're doomed to having hordes of urban militia armies roaming your empire. The German lands are very undeveloped and need some tweaking. A 90% probability of death when computer controlled should tell you all you need to know.

[bamff]

Okay, having made a start at an XL campaign, I now know what King Kurt and Martok are alluding to with regard to the economic factors.

Tech trees have changed, maps have changed, resource locations have changed, and suddenly the internal output of provinces is far more of an issue than their trade potential...all of which adds up to a requirement for quite a different approach to that needed to be successful in VI.

This would really put the pressure on some of the "one province" factions.

[General Dazza]

One of the best things in XL I find is the computer's improved army composition. I haven't seen an archer overloaded army yet, and the enemy regularly has a good mixture of units. All up it's a much more interesting game.

[Martok]

This would really put the pressure on some of the "one province" factions.
Actually, I generally find small factions to be a little easier, since the income disparity isn't quite as great. They also tend to start with more trade goods than in the vanilla game, which helps as well. Maybe I've just been lucky -- although the digital citizenry in my less fortunate Bohemian & Portuguese campaigns might dispute that (:blush:) -- but it seems like single-province factions generally do a little better in XL.

Of course, factions, like the Armenians and Irish still have problems surviving, largely due to their horrendous starting positions.


One of the best things in XL I find is the computer's improved army composition. I haven't seen an archer overloaded army yet, and the enemy regularly has a good mixture of units. All up it's a much more interesting game.
Yeah, that's one thing I like about XL as well. It's greatly helped by two things:

1.) No peasants. :2thumbsup:

2.) All factions start with better-developed infrastructure than in vanilla MTW. This generally seems to spur the AI to train the best units available to it. :yes:

[gunslinger]

I have found it nearly impossible to turtle in XL. No matter which faction I play, I can't get to a position where I can just leave invincible standing armies on my borders and tech up. I always need to be expanding and barely hanging on to my territory just to keep from going in the red financially. XL keeps me from playing too conservatively and "forces" me to have more fun!

[King Kurt]

My approach in XL - and I am a new boy! - has been a series of "mini turtles" where you take a few provinces, usually destroying a faction in the course of the war, then pause for a few years to regroup, repair a few units and build some new ones before you bite off another chunk - my longest period of inactivity was about 10 years. In vanilla I tended to build to critical mass then just roll over everybody - I don't think you can do that in XL. Bamff's point about single province factions is right to an extent in that I am sure the first few moves are critical, but many of your neighbours are similar size, so it is not like Aragon in vanilla where all your neighbours are bigger. My current campaign is as Teutonic Order - sorry about the delay in write-ups, but I have struggled to find the time!! - who are a 1 province faction. They are building nicely after 3 or 4 bites as detailed above.

[Galagros]

When playing as a one province faction I find that you really have to get a second province right away. If I still only have 1 territory, I find that someone invades me by the 3rd or 4th turn.

[Deus ret.]

When playing as a one province faction I find that you really have to get a second province right away. If I still only have 1 territory, I find that someone invades me by the 3rd or 4th turn.
Quite correct. This is particularly true for the Serbs and Armenia with whom my principal reason for failure was to turtle in the beginning and see how the surrounding conflicts develop. Well, the first conflict in the surroundings then was me being swallowed up by a larger neighbour....

I found Portugal and Ireland to be easier in that respect; the Irish are separated from any other province by the Irish sea and Portugal doesn't seem to be the first target of either Almos or Castilians. Didn't play any of them for more than 20 turns back then, though, so this assessment might be premature.

Edit: playing Armenia in High is quite different from its position in Early which is not enviable at all, whereas in High the region is more diverse and thus exploitable. At least that was the case in my Armenian campaign where I waited for the Crusaders, Mamluks, Turks and Byz to get into war among themselves and then picked my targets, using my small (due to financial troubles) but rather powerful army. This way I got hold of Antioch without offending the Crusader States with which I eventually divided up the area between Egypt and Constantinople. Despite the horde causing some disorder the situation remained stable for a pretty long time ere they decided to backstab me some time towards the 1290s, prompting me to throw them back to Cyrenaica where they rotted in the desert :laugh4:

[General Dazza]

My approach in XL - and I am a new boy! - has been a series of "mini turtles" where you take a few provinces, usually destroying a faction in the course of the war, then pause for a few years to regroup, repair a few units and build some new ones before you bite off another chunk - my longest period of inactivity was about 10 years.

I've found the same KK. I find that I need to stop and regroup - mind you I'm playing HRE so my forces are spread widely.

I don't know if this an XL thing, but compared to my previous Russian vanilla game, enemy factions will stand and fight more often. During that campaign I was disappointed when, after a long stand-off and troop 'cold war' with Hungary, when I invaded he refused to fight. Just kept running - even when he had numerical advantage. I grabbed about 6-7 provinces before they had a civil war (served them right for being cowards!).

But in this XL campaign the enemy fights more often. I'm not sure if it's a direct improvement, because I'm playing HRE and generally don't have massive troops numbers on any one border, or because the troop selection of the AI is better and therefore it calculates that it can win more battles....

[Maloncanth]

I'm gonna go give a quick try to the Armenians. I just gave the Irish a try and I REALLY can't imagine anything being harder than that. There's nothing to grab except Whales.

[King Kurt]

There's nothing to grab except Whales.
Whoooh there fella - you don't want Greenpeace chasing after you:laugh4:

[The Unknown Guy]

If you're going to play HRE I suggest that you mod them a little and add a few buildings. If not then you're doomed to having hordes of urban militia armies roaming your empire. The German lands are very undeveloped and need some tweaking. A 90% probability of death when computer controlled should tell you all you need to know.

I don´t know if this is so in XL, but in Vanilla and Pocket Mod games I usually see them browbeating France and England instead, right down to the Pyrenees.

[Maloncanth]

Hmm, I don't know if I can agree that Armenians are harder than the Irish. I just ran a bunch of quick turns on the Armenians on Expert in Early. Just pressing Autoresolve has had me basically destroy the Turks, I can't say they're that hard a side to play. Although you DO have to commit to attacking one or the other muslim side you border and not let up until you've really pounded them into the ground.

[Galagros]

I don't find the Irish to be overly difficult, at least not compared to the Armenians, but that could be my inability to fight well against Muslim armies...

[Maloncanth]

Well, I've tried some short games playing a few turns each time and both times as the Irish I simply get overwhelmed by the English. Whereas with the Armenians seem to do okay so long as they don't get overly attached to Lesser Armenia itself. It seems to me that Armenians have a very good chance of becoming settled if they knock out the Turks aggressively early and settle down in Rum/Armenia Proper and thereabouts to build up and eventually fight and beat the Eggies. T

hey are a very difficult faction if you insist on sticking around where they start though, in large part due to Egyptian naval superiority. I'm currently trying a very unorthodox strategy which involves a first turn gambit into Antioch, a second turn gambit that takes Tripoli, and trashing my own port in Lesser Armenia to discourage/trap an Eggy attack by sea. The Eggies have a lot of strategic depth though. I think for Armenia, attacking the Turks first is the best idea.

[Maloncanth]

At the risk of being excommunicated for thread necromancy, my recent tryst with the Hospitaller Knights has been quite fun and they're also a fairly challenging faction in late as their starting position is quite intimidating. I think if a player didn't go for Greece at the start, they'd be a really toughie.

Once you get established though, they become quite easy as your troops vastly outclass everything else in the region. There is just nothing that can stop Hospitaller knights of any kind without gross errors on the player's part.

[Vladimir]

There is just nothing that can stop Hospitaller knights of any kind without gross errors on the player's part.

Teutonic knights :2thumbsup:

[Maloncanth]

Teutonic knights :2thumbsup:

Yeah, the closest ones are just two thousand miles away in Livonia. :p

[Maloncanth]

Speaking of Volga Bulgars, when we're talking about the horde that kills you in High, are we talking about this mini-horde here?

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s98/Maloncanth/00000002.jpg

I was looking for a real challenge. This horde is a bit underwhelming to say the least. :laugh4:

[Martok]

That's certainly....odd. :inquisitive: Is that the only province in which they appeared?

[Vladimir]

Speaking of Volga Bulgars, when we're talking about the horde that kills you in High, are we talking about this mini-horde here?

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s98/Maloncanth/00000002.jpg

I was looking for a real challenge. This horde is a bit underwhelming to say the least. :laugh4:

AHAHAHAHAHA!!! :laugh4:

[Maloncanth]

That's certainly....odd. :inquisitive: Is that the only province in which they appeared?

Yes. :p

[Martok]

And you're playing XL, right? Did you do any modding on top of it?

[Maloncanth]

And you're playing XL, right? Did you do any modding on top of it?

Nope, it's just XL. I don't know anything about modding so I don't dare touch any files.

For the record, I played another Volga-Bulgars game and got a much larger horde so this may be an isolated incident. I can't really assess how large the horde is in that game either though. It looked like a fair number of stacks but it also said three provinces were attacked and Volga Bulgaria itself was not one of them. I was honestly expecting both times to just lose the homeland to the first wave. :inquisitive:

Anyhow the second game is probably a total a loss considering I'm at war with practically the whole Steppe so maybe I should count my blessings. :sweatdrop:

[General Dazza]

Looking for advice on who to play next in XL.

I'm just wrapping up my HRE campaign on expert/early. Only my 3rd campaign as I don't get that much time to play, so it takes a while. Prior to this I've played English and Russians.

I'd like to play a game on high so I can get further along the tech tree before game end. I've read this thread with interest but couldn't see much re who is tough on high.

I'd like a faction that is a real challenge, and preferrably closer to the east so I have a horde infestation to manage. Would be hapy with a one-province faction (nice change from HRE).

So far I'm thinking either Armenians, Serbs, or the Byzzies (are byzzies harder on high than early?).

Thankyou in advance to anyone for their thoughts :bow: .

[Maloncanth]

Well uh, try the Volga Bulgars. They can be a real riot if the horde comes in strength. :laugh4:

[General Dazza]

Well uh, try the Volga Bulgars. They can be a real riot if the horde comes in strength. :laugh4:

I like the sound of them, but I thought that it would be like playing my russian campaign again (albeit much harder). I was looking for a different style of campaign.

But they do sound like a challenge :smash: :laugh4:

Thanks Maloncanth! And here's to your 100th post!

[Vladimir]

Do Armenia. See if you can survive being squished between two major powers and a rising one.

[General Dazza]

Thanks for suggestions guys. It's either Armenia or hospitaller order (if that's the right term for them). I was reading Maloncanth's report on his campaign and it sounds good.

Gotta question re XL. I downloaded both the small version and large version prior to my current game. I thought I installed large version. When I started it I can see the new provinces (eg. Khazar and Lesser Khazar) on the map, and I can also see new factions. I also get the XL background.

But, I don't get any different music. Also, I read that XL gets rid of peasants, but I'm sure my enemies have had the odd peasant unit. Does this make sense? Should I definitely get the music, and should I not see a peasant unit anywhere at all?

[Maloncanth]

I've never noticed any peasants in XL and I don't think you should but if it's just the occasional sighting I don't think it's a big problem. I actually find the lack of peasantry rather annoying. While I admit having the AI spam them is much worse for the game, I kind of do miss them for my own garrison purposes and it's very weird using arbalesters and crossbows to do it when I lack slav warriors.

[macsen rufus]

I think there may be a few peasants on the map to begin with, but they're not trainable in XL after that.

[Vladimir]

Just train two units of urban militia. That's their job after all. Peasants till the fields and militia guards the castle. There may be a couple peasant units floating around when you begin, but you can't train them.

[Martok]

Gotta question re XL. I downloaded both the small version and large version prior to my current game. I thought I installed large version. When I started it I can see the new provinces (eg. Khazar and Lesser Khazar) on the map, and I can also see new factions. I also get the XL background.

But, I don't get any different music. Also, I read that XL gets rid of peasants, but I'm sure my enemies have had the odd peasant unit. Does this make sense? Should I definitely get the music, and should I not see a peasant unit anywhere at all?
To hear the new music, you must play as one of the new factions. You'll discover this yourself once you've begun your Hospitaller campaign. :yes:

As for the peasants, macsen rufus is correct: A number of provinces just happen to have peasant units as part of their initial garrison. I'm not sure if VikingHorde did so deliberately, or if he simply forgot to edit them out; but either way you won't see any more peasants besides the ones that are there at the beginning of the game.

[Vytautas Lietuva]

I hardly found the Irish hard at all, with their island location and all. In fact, I conquered England pretty quickly, took some Danish/North German provinces and annexed the Scandinavian area as well.

Gael Gaedhils really own :2thumbsup: Such a pity they are in such a tiny unit though. The gallowglasses' attack is more hyped up then it should be though, at least as I see it.

The Lithuanians are cool, I just wish those Lithuanian cavalry were beefed up a helluva lot more. I mean, they don't even have irrestible charge, and they are the 'royal' unit?:idea2: That really scares me. Lithuanian wariors are only good for forrest combat or under certain conditions, so I may have to work on my commanding skills.

XL rocks!

Yours,


Vytautas LT

[danfda]

The trick with the Volga-Bulgars, maloncanth and anyone else listening, is to spam kazanchi's and camp in the forest. :D Thats the easiest way to butcher the Mongols; in fact, you can darn near slaughter them that way. Have a spare unit in there (or two) to use as a lure, so you can get the Mongols to come into the trees and play with you, but after that...bam! :D

By the by, the Serbs are fun to play.

[doctrellor]

Yeah, I played the Volga Bulgars and my latest game were with the Aragorns...

needless to say, the Aragorns were in a much better situation by the 1230's than the Volgas...

I have yet to play the Irish/Scotts/Armenians, so I figure I should try with them

As far as the Serbs, I have seen the AI play them in several games, and they seem to take out the Hungarians/Venetians.. so yes, they seem to be fun indeed

[doctrellor]

Well, all this talk about Armenia, got me wanting to play a game...

Currently it is 1110...The first 2 turns I allied the Byz, and by turn 4 I allied the Eggys...So the Turks knew they were gonna be hard pressed...

I went West, then to Rum and then Armenia..The Eggys took Edessa & Mesopotamia...so the Turks are out...

Now my real problem.. I have 2 allies, with very good generals surrounding me.. and both are rich, and can grow fast

The only thing I have is my Heavy Cav which has won me several battles verses the turks, and the Armored Spearmen...so I am concentrating on defensive power...

I figure I'll go south, but I have a feeling the Eggys will just over-power me soon.. even with a 5-star King and 2 4-star princes...:(

[Roark]

Serbs dominate.

Shielded Bowmen are a great archer unit. Serbian Cavalry, though expensive, are fantastic all-rounders.

The only quandary I found with them was whether to use Voynuk Bladesmen or Latin Auxiliaries! Both are great at what they do.