Reemergence w/ 200% Loyalty

[Enigma13]

I always thought that a province had to drop below 120% loyalty for a reemergence of a defeated faction. Until last night.

To set the stage: I am playing a Danish campaign. It is 1314. I have about 30-40 provinces. Loyalty is either 200% or very close to it in all provinces. My leader has 6 influence and has been in power for close to 20 years. Last year my former allies the Sicilians decided to attack me in several provinces. Beat them back in 3 of 4 provinces. One was when I was outnumbered almost 3 to 1, so my general got the Skilled Last Stand virtue. Made my moves to lift the siege in Kiev and start massive military build up, checked all loyalty as usual before hitting start next year. Every province was still either at or around the 200% mark, including Portugal. Hit the button and wham, the Italians reappear in Portugal with 4 stacks made up of feudal knights, FMAA, arquebusiers, and Chiv. Sgts. Still showing 200% loyalty. The full stack I had in Portugal, plus a stack from Leon was able to make it a very short lived reemergence, but its occurrence at all was a big shock.

Anybody else ever had this happen?

[Caerfanan]

I always thought that a province had to drop below 120% loyalty for a reemergence of a defeated faction. Until last night.

To set the stage: I am playing a Danish campaign. It is 1314. I have about 30-40 provinces. Loyalty is either 200% or very close to it in all provinces. My leader has 6 influence and has been in power for close to 20 years. Last year my former allies the Sicilians decided to attack me in several provinces. Beat them back in 3 of 4 provinces. One was when I was outnumbered almost 3 to 1, so my general got the Skilled Last Stand virtue. Made my moves to lift the siege in Kiev and start massive military build up, checked all loyalty as usual before hitting start next year. Every province was still either at or around the 200% mark, including Portugal. Hit the button and wham, the Italians reappear in Portugal with 4 stacks made up of feudal knights, FMAA, arquebusiers, and Chiv. Sgts. Still showing 200% loyalty. The full stack I had in Portugal, plus a stack from Leon was able to make it a very short lived reemergence, but its occurrence at all was a big shock.

Anybody else ever had this happen?

Yup, I've seen reemergences in weird situations. But I can't say for sure one when I had checked the loyalties in each and every provinces though... Maybe your losing of that battle pulled a trigger...

[caravel]

It must be something to do with how the engine deals with the happiness of provinces. A severe drop must have occured (when you lost the battle) but once the end of turn had been completed and other modifiers applied, it would have been nullified. The faction reappearance code may have come into effect between those operations thus causing the reappearance to occur anyway. Also Portugal is an inherently disloyal province (a rebellious factor of 4 I think), so the invisible drop in loyalty may be something to do with the reappearance code not accounting for that correctly. I'm just speculating and surmising here of course. I have seen these kind of reappearances myself in the past, and it's very common to see reappearances in Portugal, especially with the Almohads, though I have seen the Italians reappear there in the last campaign I was playing. The Almohads in particular have a tendency to keep coming back there again and again. This is why I think it's got something to do with the 4 rebellious factor.

[Ironside]

Let me guess. You moved your king to attack a province. This causes your distance to your king to be at the maximum distance value (=Ireland without a port) when the comp calcs loyalty. Not noticable with a few provinces, but very dangerous in larger kingdoms.

A loyalty bug that's always nasty to find out by yourself.

[Enigma13]

Let me guess. You moved your king to attack a province. This causes your distance to your king to be at the maximum distance value (=Ireland without a port) when the comp calcs loyalty. Not noticable with a few provinces, but very dangerous in larger kingdoms.

A loyalty bug that's always nasty to find out by yourself.

That is a good guess, but the King did not move. He had been in Antioch for the previous 5-10 years. The Sicilians did attack him there, but he fought the attack back even though he was outnumbered. (He had a vastly superior army in terms of quality however).

My first thought was along the same lines though, that the war with the Sicilians had isolated my King from the rest of the Kingdom. Luckily, due to the fact that the Sicilians do not have deep water boats and that my Carracks and Cogs were able to win most sea battles against their galleys, the King was still in contact with Portugal. Though he did lose contact with the homeland (i.e. Denmark, Norway, Sweden).

I am tending to agree with an earlier suggestion that the loss in Kiev momentarily lowered loyalty, allowing the reemergence, then loyalty was restored by the end of the turn by the later victories.

Based on this same idea that the program computes loyalty for reemergence at multiple parts of the same turn, I have just come to another theory. It is likely that at certain points of the turn the King was isolated by the Sicilians declaration of War. However, the many sea victories solved that isolation by the end of the turn and thereby returned loyalty to 200 by the time I could check. Tie that in with the rebelliousness of Portugal and it might be the solution.

Truth be told, this unpredicted turn of events made the campaign much more enjoyable. For that short while I was quite stressed trying to determine how I was going to cover myself against the Sicilian attacks and this reemergence at the same time. Now, with this behind me it is time to start using some of my 1.8 million florins to bribe off any threats.

[Ironside]

Based on this same idea that the program computes loyalty for reemergence at multiple parts of the same turn, I have just come to another theory. It is likely that at certain points of the turn the King was isolated by the Sicilians declaration of War. However, the many sea victories solved that isolation by the end of the turn and thereby returned loyalty to 200 by the time I could check. Tie that in with the rebelliousness of Portugal and it might be the solution.

Well, the rebellion status of the province is always calculated on the loyalty of the turn before, so it's not uncommon to see: 200% loyalty, war, sealines broken --> the empire drops to red, sealines gets restored --> 200% loyalty again, but rebellions all over the map. Delayed effect, compared to the attacking king bug, were you never see the loyalty drop.

[Caerfanan]

Well, the rebellion status of the province is always calculated on the loyalty of the turn before, so it's not uncommon to see: 200% loyalty, war, sealines broken --> the empire drops to red, sealines gets restored --> 200% loyalty again, but rebellions all over the map. Delayed effect, compared to the attacking king bug, were you never see the loyalty drop.
Not exactly linked to reemergences, but I did have a (big) rebellion yesterday evening in a freshly conquered province (Cantware, Viking Campaign), while having a 130-140% loyalty. No naval route broken or king cut from empire...

Anyway, a big one, but full of peasants :whip: