Pikemen vs. Swordsmen - an analysis

[NefariousWolf]

After playing a good chunk of the way through a long Scottish campaign, I began to become intrigued with the mechanics of pikemen and how to use them, especially since much of their behavior and performance were baffling.

I set up a custom battle (VH) on a flat and mostly obstacle free plain between Scottish Heavy Pike Militia (exp3) and Armored Swordsmen (exp3) using vanilla M2TW.

I *always* used 4 deep rows of pikes. The swordsmen had 5 or 6 deep rows and charged head-on at me regardless of what I did.

I used 4 different strategies for meeting this threat.
1. Spear Wall - hold : My pikemen had spearwall and guard mode enabled and just sat 4 deep waiting for the attack.

2. Spear Wall - attack : Again spearwall and guard mode enabled and waited for the attack, but this time I single-clicked the swordsmen shortly after their charge (ie once the casualties from their charge registered on the unit card)

3. Spear Wall - advance : With spearwall and guard mode enabled, I formed 4 deep and then singleclicked on the enemy spearmen.

4. Infantry Charge : Disregarding pikes, i disabled spearwall and guard mode and just charged the enemy with swords. This case is our placebo as it does not include any pikes and allows us to gauge the effect adding pikes has to the battle.

I ran 10 tests for each. Results are given as (casualties sustained)/(casualties inflicted) and then V for victory (heh) or D for defeat

Spear Wall|-Spear Wall-|Spear Wall-|--Infantry
hold:----| attack: -| advance: | Charge
V(24/58); V(51/59); V(31/58); D(59/28);
V(16/59); V(25/52); V(32/52); D(63/27);
V(23/53); V(44/57); V(68/61); D(71/43);
V(27/58); V(30/55); V(73/61); D(66/52);
V(36/58); V(23/54); V(33/52); D(64/35);
V(55/60); V(27/58); D(74/47); D(62/34);
D(67/37); V(46/57); V(52/56); D(65/27);
D(63/42); V(30/52); V(54/59); D(60/35);
V(53/53); V(42/59); V(59/60); D(41/27);
V(32/38); V(36/56); D(71/35); D(65/36);
-------------------------------------------------------
An Infantry Charge clearly is the worst approach, but no surprise there. Spear Wall - hold or attack seem to be a bit better than Spear Wall advance. Though the test isn't really conclusive on Spear Wall - hold or attack, my gut feel is that attack will work better in general because it motivates those guys sitting at the ends of the line to move. I think it was stationary end guys who caused the two catastrophic defeats in Spear Wall - hold.

I didn't experiment with taking guard mode off, but I doubt that will help as guard mode only really comes into effect once the enemy flees. When ordered to attack a unit, the pikemen will attack and follow through regardless of guard mode. (right?)

What this means is that pikemen can hold up to superior swordsmen and almost always cause a stalemate or an outright victory, depending on how they are directed to conduct the attack and various random elements. I am not a history buff. However, this seems plausible to me and a good balance to the game. Pikemen must maintain a rigid formation or they go down like sheep, as we saw in the Infantry Charge. To balance that, they must be able to *always* win in melee when the circumstances are ideal for them, ie a solid formation and a head-on attack. Therefore, I'm happy with how they're currently balanced in this regard.

HOWEVER, the shield bug fix will dramatically change the outcome of these tests. Since the shield strength is currently being subtracted from the swordsmen, it is not hard to imagine what will happen when it's added as it should be. I ran a quick test of Spear Wall hold with the LTC mod which has the shield 'fix', and the pikemen were unceremoniously slaughtered. If CA is going to fix the shield bug, they're absolutely going to have to address pikemen as well (this may be why they are taking so long on the shield bug fix). *(Lusted, have you seen any problems with pikemen in LTC?)

The reason that the shield bug actually results in a balance between pikemen and swordsmen is that pikemen are horrendously bugged as well. I made several observations by watching the same battle play out 40 some odd different ways, some more or less startling than others.
1. Generals cause outliers in the statistics. Because they are so powerful in relation to the other characters, their position, which is mostly happenstance, can greatly influence the outcome. If anybody knows how to exclude the general from a test battle, I'd love to know how. (This doesn't have anything to do with pikemen, just an aside).

2. Pikemen don't always attack with their pikes when it seems like they should. The pikeman who actually gets a stab in with a pike is more the exception than the rule. Pikemen will sit, staring at an enemy engaged in a running animation who is stationary at the point of his pike (a la MC Hammer), and not attack him. This is annoying when it's only some of the pikemen. An extreme example which happened twice in 40 runs (that's 1 out of every 20 times) is when the swordsmen all get stuck like this. The pikemen hold the pikes without attacking and the swordsmen, though in the run animation, aren't moving beyond the tip of the pike, and the battle does not end. Literally. I've got a saved replay of this if anyone is curious.

3. Pikemen throw down their pikes too quickly. Everybody who uses pikes knows this. You see a whole row of pikemen one person removed from combat who could be poking about with sticks and instead are shuffling their sword from hand to hand waiting for their turn to die.

4. Pikes do not seem to reflect charge damage as they should. The way it should work is that 60 armored swordsmen barreling into 75 pointy sticks should result in many dead armored swordsmen. The actual result is that one or two swordsmen stumble and fall, and almost the entire front row of pikemen, whether actually attacked or not, perish beneath the strength of the charge. This seems like a pretty clear bug. Charging damage against spears should be relfected back on the chargers.

**************THE FINAL WORD********************
Pikemen are currently balanced. They are stationary or slow-moving defensive units which should be used to fend off attacks, not conduct attacks. Their flanks need to be protected by other melee units, their formation must be strictly kept, and they must not be exposed to missile fire. But then they can fight off almost anything that comes at them and for generally a fraction of the recruitment cost.

HOWEVER, with the impending shield bug fix (*hopefully* impending?), pikemen will be slaughtered wholesale unless their own bugs are corrected.
*************************************************

Questions and comments encouraged.

[Carl]

but I doubt that will help as guard mode only really comes into effect once the enemy flees. When ordered to attack a unit, the pikemen will attack and follow through regardless of guard mode. (right?)


Wrong, it has BIG effects on their killing power, the stuck thing you noticed never happens when they are out of guard mode. They also tend to cause more kils per second on average.

The problem is they tend to drop their pikes for swords even more easilly which makes the better kiling power of their pikes tottally redundent.

[guyfawkes5]

If anybody knows how to exclude the general from a test battle, I'd love to know how. (This doesn't have anything to do with pikemen, just an aside).
Try creating two generals bodyguards with the general in them and placing them far away from the battle. This would only work with human players though, as obviously the computer won't be so 'co-operative' in exluding his general from the battle.

[R'as al Ghul]

1. Generals cause outliers in the statistics. Because they are so powerful in relation to the other characters, their position, which is mostly happenstance, can greatly influence the outcome. If anybody knows how to exclude the general from a test battle, I'd love to know how. (This doesn't have anything to do with pikemen, just an aside).


I always buy several units of the same sort for each side when testing. Like 5 including the general. All of the same kind.
The game will set up two neat lines opposing each other with the general unit behind. The 4 units in the line will fight out the test battle while the general does nothing. As soon as he enters the melee, usually when one unit routs, I abort and take notes. If one general dies in the battle your results are skewed from there on.

[NefariousWolf]

Wrong, it has BIG effects on their killing power, the stuck thing you noticed never happens when they are out of guard mode. They also tend to cause more kils per second on average.

The problem is they tend to drop their pikes for swords even more easilly which makes the better kiling power of their pikes tottally redundent.

I'd love to see the statistics you used and the average you arrived at. Feel free to post.

As for the stuck thing, I found that only happens with Spear Wall - hold, not Spear Wall - attack, both of which use guard mode. Have you run 40 someodd identical battles between pike's with guard mode disabled calmly awaiting infantry to see if the stuck thing really doesn't happen? If you have, again, I'd love to see the statistics you ended up with.

[General Zhukov]

Pikemen are currently balanced. They are stationary or slow-moving defensive units which should be used to fend off attacks, not conduct attacks. Their flanks need to be protected by other melee units, their formation must be strictly kept, and they must not be exposed to missile fire. But then they can fight off almost anything that comes at them and for generally a fraction of the recruitment cost.

You'll get little sympathy for this reasonable conclusion around here. Setting aside the facts that pikes are dirt cheap, halt cavalry charges, and kill enemy infantry at a decent rate even with their sidearms, they don't poke enuff. ~:mecry:


HOWEVER, with the impending shield bug fix (*hopefully* impending?), pikemen will be slaughtered wholesale unless their own bugs are corrected.

That was my first impression after reading the preliminary fixlist: pikes will veer into the ditch without further tweaking.

[FactionHeir]

2. Pikemen don't always attack with their pikes when it seems like they should. The pikeman who actually gets a stab in with a pike is more the exception than the rule. Pikemen will sit, staring at an enemy engaged in a running animation who is stationary at the point of his pike (a la MC Hammer), and not attack him. This is annoying when it's only some of the pikemen. An extreme example which happened twice in 40 runs (that's 1 out of every 20 times) is when the swordsmen all get stuck like this. The pikemen hold the pikes without attacking and the swordsmen, though in the run animation, aren't moving beyond the tip of the pike, and the battle does not end. Literally. I've got a saved replay of this if anyone is curious.


Sad thing is, this not only happens to infantry charging the pikes but also to cavalry. Its really funny/sad to watch cavalry running on the spot against pikes and not taking casualties and constantly in charge mode.

[R'as al Ghul]

Funny how a few changes can give totally different results. I'm playing with Pikefix and shieldfix, among other things I've changed. And in my version, which should give similar results as Carl's collection of fixes, Pikes are über.
That's right, they destroy everything. That is, if guard mode is switched off.
Same goes for Halberd militia and in fact all units that can form spear walls and have very long pikes. If they're attacked from the front they'll hold for an almost infinite time. And not only do they hold, they kill.
The other day I was fighting near Jerusalem, attacked by the Egyptians. My army was depleted from too many battles and I had about 10-12 units. The Egyptians had a full stack of mixed troops, among them several Ghazis and lots of mounted troops. The terrain favoured me and I took position on a narrow slope with steep cliffs on either side. I had two units of fresh inexperienced Halberd Militia in the center of my line with two Armoured spears on each flank. Archers and General behind. The Egyptian charge was quite powerful, attacking along the line with all he had. And yet it was stopped dead in its tracks due to my Halberd Militias who didn't move an inch.
After a short melee the Egyptians reformed and charged again onto the line. It was futile.
And then I saw the Ai retreat in an orderly fashion for the first time in M2. They didn't rout, they retreated. I couldn't believe it but it seemed as if the AI had understood that it doesn't have a chance and that a retreat would be the best option. I'd love it if the Ai would make sensible strategic retreats like this more often.
BTW, My Halberd Militias killed about 180 foes each, losing perhaps 20 out of 150 themselves.

[Husar]

Well, Halberds are pretty good in vanilla already.
I'd like to see Pikemen being able to attack and poke more often, pikemen vs pikemen battles also shouldn't be decided with swords and they might want to lower thewir pikes while moving closer to an enemy unit, currently they keep their pikes in the air and move right into a unit, even RTW phalanxes could do better(thought in general, the M2TW animations are superior to those of RTW).
Well, since CA could fix such things in RTW, I am still hoping for a fix.:2thumbsup:

[Lorenzo_H]

Pikemen are a defensive unit. Swordsmen are an attacking unit. So far I haven't thought of it any other way.

[HoreTore]

And then I saw the Ai retreat in an orderly fashion for the first time in M2. They didn't rout, they retreated. I couldn't believe it but it seemed as if the AI had understood that it doesn't have a chance and that a retreat would be the best option. I'd love it if the Ai would make sensible strategic retreats like this more often.

I see this all the time when I'm playing with horse archer heavy armies. If the forces are about matched in power or the enemy is weaker, they'll usually retreat after they've lost about half their army to arrows and isolated light cav charges.

[Carl]

I'd love to see the statistics you used and the average you arrived at. Feel free to post.


I haven't got any written down, it's all based on observations from lots of use, although i could try and do some tests later.


Pikemen are a defensive unit. Swordsmen are an attacking unit. So far I haven't thought of it any other way.


This still remains true, but they are defensive because they move slowly and you have to concentrate on keeping your flanks/rear secured. It shouldn't be because they can't be ordered to move at all, that just lets the enemy shoot them to bits.


Funny how a few changes can give totally different results. I'm playing with Pike-fix and shield fix, among other things I've changed. And in my version, which should give similar results as Carl's collection of fixes, Pikes are über.
That's right, they destroy everything. That is, if guard mode is switched off.
Same goes for Halberd militia and in fact all units that can form spear walls and have very long pikes. If they're attacked from the front they'll hold for an almost infinite time. And not only do they hold, they kill.
The other day I was fighting near Jerusalem, attacked by the Egyptians. My army was depleted from too many battles and I had about 10-12 units. The Egyptians had a full stack of mixed troops, among them several Ghazis and lots of mounted troops. The terrain favoured me and I took position on a narrow slope with steep cliffs on either side. I had two units of fresh inexperienced Halberd Militia in the center of my line with two Armoured spears on each flank. Archers and General behind. The Egyptian charge was quite powerful, attacking along the line with all he had. And yet it was stopped dead in its tracks due to my Halberd Militias who didn't move an inch.
After a short melee the Egyptians reformed and charged again onto the line. It was futile.
And then I saw the Ai retreat in an orderly fashion for the first time in M2. They didn't rout, they retreated. I couldn't believe it but it seemed as if the AI had understood that it doesn't have a chance and that a retreat would be the best option. I'd love it if the Ai would make sensible strategic retreats like this more often.
BTW, My Halberd Militias killed about 180 foes each, losing perhaps 20 out of 150 themselves.


This is one of the reasons I reduced the attack of all Pikes by 2 points in V1.13. With working Pikes their attack animations are a bit too quick and they kill their opponents a bit too quickly.


You'll get little sympathy for this reasonable conclusion around here.

The problem is it isn't a reasonable conclusion at all. Pikes have the following disadvantages compared to Swordsmen in vanilla.

1. They are extremely slow moving, and because of how long it takes to go from out of spear wall whilst running to into spear wall and prepared to meet a Cav charge, it isn't really feasible to run with them out of spear-wall when they are fairly close to the enemy. My cut off point tends to be at about the same distance Longbows can begin firing on them. Because of this it's very easy for any other non-pike/halberd unit to try to run around the side/rear of the pikes and the slow movement means they will struggle to turn to meet this threat.

2. They are very vulnerable to missiles, they have a worse missile defense than almost every non-spear wall unit in the game. When coupled with their slow speed it's possible for even peasant archers to Wipe out half a unit of Pike Militia before melee starts.

3. They are extremely vulnerable to flank and rear attacks as they never get to use their pikes when attacked there. When coupled with their slow speed, this makes this weakness another major liability, just like their missile vulnerabilities.

4. In line with point 3, pike/halberds need considerable support to work as they need units to guard their flanks and attack the enemies missile units. none of these units are actually intended to beat the enemy army however, their purpose is simply to cover for the pikes vulnerabilities so they can get their job done. For this you needs Swords and, (if available), 2-handers on each flank, plus some spears and light/medium Cav to prevent the enemy going through or around flank guards with their Cav. They also need some light Cav to attack enemy missile units, and a reserve force of spears, swords, and, (if available), 2-handers behind the pikes to plug the hole that will appear if you have to wheel your center around to attack the enemy attacking the flanks. It can also plug holes elsewhere as needed and attack anything that does get round the rear of your army.

5. This brings us onto point 5. Typically the supporting army for a pike center will be outnumbered by the enemy units attacking it, (as a smart opponent will throw everything he can at those flanks in the hopes of collapsing them), and may even be of inferior quality to their opponents. They thus have Little chance of making their value back over the course of a battle. As a result the majority of the total value of the army actually has to be made back by the pikes alone, thats probably why they are so cheap, (although i still feel they are maybe a bit too cheap). Therefore only JUST beating a unit of swords isn't really anywhere near good enough. In reality they will probably have to see off 2 units of swords each in spite of having taken some missile fire, (they'll take some no matter how good the supporting army is), and still be in pretty good shape afterwords. On of the things with Pike you see is that the plan for them is pretty much fixed and theirs Little variance that can be added into it, how well the army does, and how big the win/loss is comes down to very small details in it, (such as when you commit what forces and exactly how well you manage to eliminate the enemy missiles, and how well you stop units running around your rear, e.t.c). With any normal army the plan can change and evolve mid battle and you can easily turn a battle around with some sudden repositioning and attacks.


Not so with a pike army. Win or lose you do so on how well you protect the pikes vulnerabilities, and by how quick you are at getting your pikes into the main enemy army, (weather you do this by forcing the enemy off your flanks into your center, or pinning them against your flanks and turning your center on them). Do these well and you'll come away with a crushing Victory. Do them poorly and it will be a Crushing defeat. Do some bits well and some bits badly and it will be a close victory/defeat.

Overall This is very much how it was in RTW with Phalanx units. the issue here is that they changed the spear-wall code between RTW and M2TW and that creates all the problems, (pikes that can't move and attack at the same time, pikes that switch to swords, and pikes that only fight in 2 ranks instead of 4). If they went back to the RTW code we might actually have working Pikes. As it stands, even in vanilla they are extremely weak as any decent unit can match them in melee and all are faster and typically have better missile defense as well as not requiring a fraction the support. Head on Pikes should be nearly unbeatable.

The issue ATM with the current temp workaround pike fix is that A) it cuts down on the flank/rear vulnerabilities a bit too much, and B) the speed at which they kill is too high, you can't use cheap units to tie them up for a while as you should be able to. You can't disrupt his attack timing with his pikes if his pikes can't be delayed.

[Lusted]

If they went back to the RTW code we might actually have working Pikes

I really hope CA don't, pikes in RTW were way too overpowered, even on the move if they were in phalanx formation they would massacre cav that charge into them - even with thier spears up! Or even if you charged them in the rear your cav would somehow take casualties because they were in phalanx formation.

I like the changes CA have made to pikes in M2Tw, all they need is to use thier pikes for longer in combat, and a slight boost to movement speed.

[Carl]

they would massacre Cav that charge into them - even with their spears up! Or even if you charged them in the rear your Cav would somehow take casualties because they were in phalanx formation.

I wasn't aware of these facts actually. I was talking My experience of them which was if they where fighting infantry (or Cav if stopped and braced), they would massacre anything that attacked them from the front. Which is as it should be. Thats the entire point and balancing crux of Pike units. They pay in missile vulnerabilities speed and flank/rear vulnerabilities for being virtually unstoppable head on.

I agree the 2 things you described shouldn't happen BTW.

[Lusted]

They pay in missile vulnerabilities speed and flank/rear vulnerabilities for being virtually unstoppable head on.

Ah, MOSTLY unstoppable head on, infantry with shields and swords could give pikemen a nice shock, as shown in history by the use of sword and buckler men. Cav should just stand no chance aginast pikes head on.

[FactionHeir]

Well and that units charging them from the front should not continue running on the spot against a pike but actually die from impaling themselves on the pike... especially cavalry - its simply ridiculous how they can keep charging on the spot without taking any casualties when pikes are in guard mode. Running into a pike without the pikeman stabbing is supposed to be lethal too.

Right now, you could think those pikes were just wooden staves that were not sharpened at all but had a blunt end...

[Carl]

Ah, MOSTLY unstoppable head on, infantry with shields and swords could give pikemen a nice shock, as shown in history by the use of sword and buckler men. Cav should just stand no chance aginast pikes head on.


I was talking in the game where having ANYTHING beat them head on would be IMBA.

Not that I think swords and sheilds really where a big threat to well trained Pikes, (see the other thread here I dealt with that point).

[econ21]

I really hope CA don't, pikes in RTW were way too overpowered, even on the move if they were in phalanx formation they would massacre cav that charge into them - even with thier spears up! Or even if you charged them in the rear your cav would somehow take casualties because they were in phalanx formation.

I don't recognise that. In my experience, RTW phalanxes did pretty badly against cav. I remember needing 3 Seleucid bronze shields to bring down one AI cataphract general - and losing about half my men. The problem of pikes switching to swords, and the general uberness of RTW cav (esp. the 2HP kind), meant my RTW phalanxes took excessive casualties holding off cav. Playing Alexander, I experienced the same thing - the phalanx suffered against barbarian generals' units.

RTW phalanxes were arguably overpowered against infantry. In the hands of the player, your solid wall of pike units could just mow down the AI with minimal loss. But in the AIs hands, pikes were awful. The AI just could not handle them - they were too slow and would meander around seeking best match ups, breaking the solid wall of units and exposing their flanks. Fighting them was just too easy.

I haven't experienced pikes much in M2TW, so I can't comment on them at the moment. For the SP game, my instinct would be to err on the side of the overpowering the phalanx - the human is going to murder the AI phalanxes through fire and flanking, so keeping them beefy is necessary to stop them being an embarassment. (The human will just have to show restraint when handling beefy phalanxes).

[Nelson]

My Rome experiences match Econ's. Pike were underpowered in Rome IMO. I saw cav penetrate their ranks far too often to ever call them OVER powered. Historically phalanxes could be defeated for sure but not easily. Despite the cost, Pyrrhus did give his name to victories, after all. We don’t call them Pyrrhic defeats. The Romans had a kind of tactical stalemate going on with the Greeks until they bumbled into a favorable situation at Cynoscephalae.

I see people saying that pikes were purely defensive, or should be. Not so! They could make devastating attacks. Just look at the Swiss who became famous for mass attacks in deep columns. They didn’t show up on the battlefield and just stand around waiting to be charged. They took it to the enemy.

I’m not sure what CA should do about these pike and shield issues, but if the outcome is to bear any relation to history, well trained pike formations should be hard hitting, dangerous and tough if you can’t get around on them.

[Lusted]

RTW phalanxes were arguably overpowered against infantry.

True, i suppose it was mostly against inf they were overpowered.

What i'd ideally like to see is a pike fomration that is almost impenetrable from the front, can be used to attack, and does the push of pike against othe rpike fomrations, doesn't switch to swords too soon, but is very vulnerable from the flanks/rear, and against missiles. And a bit difficult to manouver.

[FactionHeir]

RTW phalanxes were great IMO. Fairly well balanced except against chariots which insta died when touching the pikes and with cav charging into their rear taking heavy losses.

Remedy the rear charging issue and they are ready for implementation into M2TW I would think, because there are no chariots here.

[Carl]

What i'd ideally like to see is a pike fomration that is almost impenetrable from the front, can be used to attack, and does the push of pike against othe rpike fomrations, doesn't switch to swords too soon, but is very vulnerable from the flanks/rear, and against missiles. And a bit difficult to manouver

That pretty much matches my veiw too Lusted.

[Carl]

Just had some thoughts regarding the mechanics and how I think things could be fixed:

First I think I know why Pike Switch to swords so easily. It's the fixing of the RTW rear charge Cav Bug. The old reflect charge trick of pikes doesn't use any animations so theirs no override to stop it happening if the pike isn't actually facing the opponent. Coming into contact with the Pikemen must always trigger the reflection and the Pike extends this area of affect with regards to reflect charge and the pikemans own attack, (but not the enemies attacks back), rather a long way to the front. From the rear you actually have to end up ramming into the pikemen himself to have it happen but it still happens up till the point he draws his sword. however the issue here is pretty simple. In RTW you actually had to be taking a swing at him or about to take a swing at him before he'd drop his pike and pull his sword. As a result, the reflect charge would happen BEFORE he dropped his Pike, resulting in dead Cav.

Now assuming the above IS correct I think what they've done is change it so that he pulls his sword when the enemy gets withing a particular distance of him. As a result he drops his pike sooner, and a rear Cav charge will cause him to drop his pike BEFORE he gets hit by the Cav. Unfortunately since some men always make it past the pike points he drops it too soon against infantry.

Second, One of the big issues is the way the switchover code has everyone switch to swords as soon as one does, generally those that do make it in would be driven off if only those guys getting hacked at switched to swords.

Third the Pike spacing between men is FAR too high. The spacing used by the, (currently unimplemented), Shield_Wall formation would be much better as it increases the number of Pike points attacking each man, this is part of what makes Phalanx units so irresistible from the front in RTW, they get a lot of pike points directed at each enemy helping to prevent him reaching the formation proper.

Fourth, in RTW they fought in far more Ranks than currently, 2-3 ranks just isn't enough for effective Pikes. You need a lot more. As it stands, 4 can just about fight if you take guard mode off, (the 3rd and 4th llower thier pikes and attack after the enemy impact, but without a pike fix they switch to swords before this happens). With closer spacing 4 could comfortably fight.

Fifth, another possible temp fix might be to double the attack of all pikes so as to reduce the likelihood of any single attack failing to kill. That would make it much harder to penetrate the pike wall as the ones that do tend to be the ones that don't get killed by the pikes when they try to get in. If you can't give them more Pike points, make what they do have more effective to compensate. This would actually encourage the AI to recruit them too.

[Lusted]

One of the big issues is the way the switchover code has everyone switch to swords as soon as one does, generally those that do make it in would be driven off if only those guys getting hacked at switched to swords.

Really? I've only seen those in melee switch to swords.

[Carl]

For me and most people as soon as more than 1 or 2 switch to swords the entire lot drops pikes and the enemy runs in quick. you have to whatch the unit side on from maximum zoom so you can see how close the enemy is when the first pikemen switches, you'll notice that when the rest switch the enemy are much furthar away.

[NefariousWolf]

Great post on the 5 disadvantages of Pikes, Carl. Your post read almost like a manual on how pikes should behave and how to use them to effect. Which is why I'm curious as to why you disagree that they are balanced.

As you and Lusted agreed, and I whole-heartedly support, a good definition of balanced Pike is:


... a pike fomration that is almost impenetrable from the front, can be used to attack, and does the push of pike against other pike formations, doesn't switch to swords too soon, but is very vulnerable from the flanks/rear, and against missiles. And a bit difficult to manouver.

Your points of disadvantages is just an elaboration of this.
1. They have poor maneuverability.
2. They are extremely vulnerable to missiles.
3. They are extremely vulnerable to flank and rear attacks.

Points 4 and 5 then go on as to how to counter and/or cover these disadvantages. A couple thoughts about these....



Therefore only JUST beating a unit of swords isn't really anywhere near good enough. In reality they will probably have to see off 2 units of swords each in spite of having taken some missile fire, (they'll take some no matter how good the supporting army is), and still be in pretty good shape afterwords.


If you look at the statistics again, you'll see that they don't 'just' beat the Armored Swordsmen, they completely destroy the Armored Swordsmen and are many times left with a half-unit, a still functioning unit you can use in a reserve role.

It might be hard to tell from the statistics, and I really should have noted it for people who aren't as familiar wtih the units, but Heavy Militia Pikemen start with 75 soldiers as opposed to the Armored Swordsmen's 60. So, while 50 casualties on both sides looks like a draw, it still leaves the Pikemen with 15 more soldiers.

Also note that the Armored Swordsmen have much better stats and are much more expensive. They aren't just any swordsmen, they're the best the English have to offer (although not the best in the game, of course), whereas the Heavy Militia Pike are only the second best Pike units the Scotts have.



Overall This is very much how it was in RTW with Phalanx units. the issue here is that they changed the spear-wall code between RTW and M2TW and that creates all the problems, (pikes that can't move and attack at the same time, pikes that switch to swords, and pikes that only fight in 2 ranks instead of 4).

Pikes can move an attack, that's the Spear Wall - Advance column in the stats. They performed only slightly less well in an advancing attack than in a braced defense.



As it stands, even in vanilla they are extremely weak as any decent unit can match them in melee... Head on Pikes should be nearly unbeatable.

Again, that's not what my tests showed. They clobbered the swordsmen time after time and were, at least in the Spear Wall - attack, unbeatable. At least for the 10 tests. If I was really doing this right, I'd do 100. But then I'd never play the game....


The issue ATM with the current temp workaround pike fix is that A) it cuts down on the flank/rear vulnerabilities a bit too much, and B) the speed at which they kill is too high, you can't use cheap units to tie them up for a while as you should be able to. You can't disrupt his attack timing with his pikes if his pikes can't be delayed.

I absolutely agree. I think the pike workaround ruins the balance and ruins pikemen. However, if you just want to see people get mowed down by a bunch of pointy sticks and aren't really looking for a 'balance', I'm sure it's a lot of fun.


For me and most people as soon as more than 1 or 2 switch to swords the entire lot drops pikes and the enemy runs in quick

This is not what I observed. Throughout the many battles that I watched closely, every single time there were at least a handful of pikemen sticking to their pikes. If there weren't, then we would expect outcomes closer to the Infantry Charge stats.

However, I agree that Pikemen switch to fast. I'm almost certain that it's a distance function, however it seems to be omnidirectional when it should only apply to enemies in front of the pikeman.

Though I think this needs to be fixed, it needs to be fixed in conjunction with the shield bug fix. Fixing this but not the shield bug will make the Pikemen far too powerful as they are already balanced in relation to shieldless swordsmen.

[pike master]

i was under a manager one time when i worked as a meatcutter. and it had been a while since i had a raise so i ask him can i get a raise. he says ill put a word in for you to the supervisor.

well a few weeks go by and i dont hear anything so i ask him about the raise again. he tells me that the supervisor was thinking about or that he forgot to tell him.

this went on for about a month till i got the supervisor aside and confronted him myself and found out the guy never even told him i wanted a raise.

guess what i got my raise.

can yu guys take a hint.we got some wabbits to flush!

[hellenes]

My Rome experiences match Econ's. Pike were underpowered in Rome IMO. I saw cav penetrate their ranks far too often to ever call them OVER powered. Historically phalanxes could be defeated for sure but not easily. Despite the cost, Pyrrhus did give his name to victories, after all. We don’t call them Pyrrhic defeats. The Romans had a kind of tactical stalemate going on with the Greeks until they bumbled into a favorable situation at Cynoscephalae.

I see people saying that pikes were purely defensive, or should be. Not so! They could make devastating attacks. Just look at the Swiss who became famous for mass attacks in deep columns. They didn’t show up on the battlefield and just stand around waiting to be charged. They took it to the enemy.

I’m not sure what CA should do about these pike and shield issues, but if the outcome is to bear any relation to history, well trained pike formations should be hard hitting, dangerous and tough if you can’t get around on them.

Thats exactly the point...
The probel I see is that CA hasnt connected the experience level to the speed of how a pike unit forms or turns around...because more experienced and veteran pikemen could make some VERY complex manouvers like Alexanders Pezetairoi proved countless times...

[pike master]

in rome my legionares could own most phalanxes in a frontal engagement. its only when you went up against the elite units like the armored hoplites and spartans and silver shield pikemen that i would lose.

i think it was well balanced in rome.

[Whacker]

I also felt that pikes were distinctly underpowered in RTW. Cav tended to rip up anything (which I was perfectly ok with), but even the more basic infantry would give pikes a run for the money from the front. The 1.5 patch helped a little bit the "butt-spike" bug was/is exceedingly annoying. This is of course a bit different from the M2TW pikes. The (hopefully soon fixed) sword bug made them just about as useless... Of course, once you remove their swords, and stick them with pikes only, then holy crap! I didn't have them lose once to anything, not even full gold chevron DFKs.

As for legionaries, I think half of them owning just about anything was the double pilum toss before engaging. That almost always wiped out 1/4 if not more of whatever they were engaging.

[dopp]

I'm not exactly sure what's the issue here. Game balance that is built on buggy underperforming units is no balance at all, and any attempt to fix the bugs through modding will of course require a huge amount of tweaking.

Unless someone insists that pikemen are working as intended, some modification of their default behavior is in order, regardless of whether they are balanced or not. Balanced does NOT equal 'working properly'. Pikemen that use their pikes 10% of the time and still manage to annihilate equally buggy swordsmen with their pocketknives just proves that everything is messed up. I expect pikemen to use pikes; I mod the game to force them to use pikes. Naturally the balance is thrown out of whack, since it was based on buggy units to begin with. What else can you expect?

If people think that modded super pikemen are a greater sin than confused pikemen with inner swordsmen issues, then that's their problem. If you don't want to use the pike 'fix' I proposed then don't. My opinion is that the 'fix' opens up more possibilities than problems, because it cuts out the stuff we can't get at (the weapon switch and formation code) completely, leaving only the stuff we can tweak, such as the attack and defense values.

[pike master]

all i want to do myself is get someone to come out and tell us the very thing you just mentioned dopp.

ive been moaning about the pikes maybe more than anyone so maybe its just me on the .com and im not getting any response from ca staff period. its like they are afraid of what they are supposed to say becuase they know it will tee people off.

i bet they intended for those pikes to work that way. because since rome there have been two schools of people. the ones who thought phalanx units were cool and the ones who got mad because a novice player could take his spartans and mess up said persons uber legionares.

thats all it boils down too. there was too many times when i would play a mp game there would always be somone moaning about how the greeks were too strong.

if it were for single player i dont think they would have changed it personally. i tend to believe its because someone wanted it that way for mp.but im a novice when it comes to game politics.

@dopp

so you are saying that modders cannot access the deeper triggers that could have made the pikemen that way?

so who would these guys have been?

"QUOTE
The phalanx formation is so good though for the swiss! That's how they fought: in disciplined, compact, squares! I don't understand. We could make them expensive (very, and they should be available only as mercenaries) and they would be very accurate"

"Like I've already mentioned, it'll probably screw up the RPS values. The only real weakness that I see is a flanking attack, but that doesn't really fit into the RPS system. The AI won't think "Oh, we've got a phalanx here, let's do some flanking manouvres on them" so that's where we have our problem. All units, no matter their cost, should have some sort of weakness e.g late knights may be really strong, but they'll still be naturally worse off if they try and fight and type of spearmen.

Naturally swordsmen should beat them, but the RTW engine never incorporated this. Realistically they should charge the whole formation and try and break away the pikes, but instead they stand back a few metres, perfect targets for a phalanx.

We've got a new pike formation animation which looks like what you describe, so all you'll have to do is hit the guard button and it should act the way you want it"

do you think that was a discussion between devs or not?

[NefariousWolf]

[QUOTE=dopp]If people think that modded super pikemen are a greater sin than confused pikemen with inner swordsmen issues, then that's their problem...../QUOTE]

Calm yourself dopp... there's no sin in using super pikemen. And you're absolutely right that it does open up modding opportunities so that you can turn the pikemen into a perfectly balanced melee unit.

The reason I wouldn't use it is that you just end up with a melee unit that acts like any other melee unit instead of having the peculiarities of pikemen. Leaving the game vanilla leaves you with bugged but balanced pikemen. Just as you said, balanced does not equal working properly.

The big point here is that a shield bug fix has to be in conjunction with a pike fix. Unless I missed something. Lusted claims the pikes still perform in a 'balanced' way with the shield bug workaround in LTC, but I haven't been able to verify that.

Based on my results, I would expect increasing the defense of the Armored Swordsmen by 2x the shield value would cause the pikemen to get trounced, but maybe not. Hopefully, I'll get to run some tests this weekend.

[dopp]

@madcatmech: I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. Are you claiming that pikemen are working as intended with that quote? I think Carl made some good arguments for the weaknesses of pikes already, there are quite a few more than simply a weakness to flank charges (which is a massive weakness).

I never used a phalanx or pike unit in RTW. I played Romans, about the only faction that doesn't get either phalanxes or HA. Phalanxes were tough but hardly invincible. If M2TW tried to tone them down, they overdid it.

If there is a way to make pikemen hang on to their weapons longer that is less draconian than simply removing their swords, nobody has suggested it yet on these forums. So yes, we can't access the weaponswitching code AFAIK, we can only remove the option to switch weapons completely. I'm temporarily satisfied with the results. You may disagree.

@NefariousWolf: The 'peculiarities' of pikemen atm consist of switching over to swords a few seconds after impact, making them 'just another melee unit' anyway. What's your point? If they hold on to their weapons, then at least they fulfill the basic role of being strong (very strong) to the front but weak to the sides.

The shield bug fix is often packaged with the pike 'fix', among others. I don't see a problem there.

Ultimately, as I have said before, the primary motivation for removing their swords is not game balance, which can be readjusted later anyway, but visual effect. Regardless of how 'balanced' or 'buggy' they are, vanilla pikemen behave in a ridiculous fashion. Even if official word was given that pikemen were working as intended, pikemen still look and act really stupid. This is personal taste, but I think at least a few others would agree with me.

As for balance, pikemen are often the final tier melee infantry available to their faction. They should be more than just a cavalry roadblock. The swordsmen are not superior troops at all.

TBH, I'm not sure I follow your argument at all. You say that pikemen are bugged and only survive because other units are bugged as well. How then does it then follow that because everything is happily bugged together, the vanilla game is balanced and everyone should be satisfied?

[Lusted]

Based on my results, I would expect increasing the defense of the Armored Swordsmen by 2x the shield value would cause the pikemen to get trounced, but maybe not. Hopefully, I'll get to run some tests this weekend.

Erm, thats not the shield bug fix. The shield bug fix is half the shield value rounded up into armor, half the shield value rounded down into defense skill, and shield value set to 0/

[Carl]

If you look at the statistics again, you'll see that they don't 'just' beat the Armored Swordsmen, they completely destroy the Armored Swordsmen and are many times left with a half-unit, a still functioning unit you can use in a reserve role.

It might be hard to tell from the statistics, and I really should have noted it for people who aren't as familiar with the units, but Heavy Militia Pikemen start with 75 soldiers as opposed to the Armored Swordsmen's 60. So, while 50 casualties on both sides looks like a draw, it still leaves the Pikemen with 15 more soldiers.


Woops, sorry about that, I was making my statements on a combination of my own results and glancing across your figures, I hadn't picked up on you using a different unit size to me, (I use small, where Pikes have a max of 60 Men). 50 dead out of 60 is very high indeed.


Also note that the Armored Swordsmen have much better stats and are much more expensive. They aren't just any swordsmen, they're the best the English have to offer (although not the best in the game, of course), whereas the Heavy Militia Pike are only the second best Pike units the Scots have.

However this statement only justifies 2 of my points. First I've always said pikes are extremely under-priced considering the role they have to fulfill, In addition all their killing power is concentrated into their front arc, this isn't true of the swordsmen, Likewise they have significant maneuverer advantages and their missile resistance is better than all but the best Cav, they are also equivalent to all but a handful of other sword units in terms of capability. Overall they have significant advantages over pikes and thus, (even considering the price difference), the swords should still be significantly weaker as a UNIT. The swords have much diffused combat power and numerous other advantages that can result in a combat swinging their way that the pikes lack and the Pikemens only way of making this up is by being extremely proficient when they do manage to get the enemy in the best position. Considering the price differences and pike advantages/disadvantages, the pikes really should be able to beat the Swords with around a third the losses they actually suffer.

Worse still the Pikes in your test are the 4th best Pikes in the Game, a much fairer test would be the standard French Pikes, (Pikemen), these are Representative of the majority o pikes who have between 6-10 attack, and 1-6 defense. Heavy Pike Militia have much better defense and a fairly decent attack too. Only Portuguese Avertous, Landkshert Mercenary pikes, and Noble Pikemen are better.

In reality IMHO, even Pikemen/Highland Pikemen should be able to beat them with less than 50% losses, and Pike militia no more than 2/3 losses. I'd prefer lower figures still, but pikes would need a price hie then to compensate.


Great post on the 5 disadvantages of Pikes, Carl. Your post read almost like a manual on how pikes should behave and how to use them to effect. Which is why I'm curious as to why you disagree that they are balanced.


It comes down to my point about the non-pike elements making up quite a lot of the army, but not actually, (because the enemy will focus a lot of his forces on them to try and avoid the pikes), being responsible for most of the kills. 'd expect the non-pike forces to wipe out about 10% of the enemy melee force, plus whatever missiles the enemy has. Thats about 65-75% of the enemy army has to be beaten by the Pikes alone. However the Pikes will not be able to make up the majority of the Pike armies composition. The sheer numbers of support units will limit you to around 30-40% of your army as pikes. So 6-8 units of pikes have to beat 14-16 assorted units of 2-Handers/Spears/Swords/Cav in spite of probably having taken 10-15% losses themselves from the enemy missiles, whilst the enemy forces missile losses will probably be minimal due to the limited number of slots available for missile units after you have your pikes and supporting melee infantry/Cav.

That's the point most people fail to pick up on. Pike armies include a lot of support units, and these support units will typically be attacked on mass by most of the enemy army, and price restraints will often limit the quality, so your support units will always be outnumbered, and typically outgunned individually too. Under those circumstances units tend to die quickly and without causing significant losses. In particular, Light Cav, Missiles, and Spears are very poor against working shield units, and Working shield units live in mortal terror of enemy heavy Cav and 2-handers.

Typically the quantity, quality and types of enemy units focused on a pike formations flank guards give them Little chance of fighting back effectively. So the majority of the work has to fall to the pikes, who are typically significantly less numerous than the total enemy they must beat. Even fairly low level Pikes need to be able to handle multiple enemy units to a degree due to this issue. Although the extreme cheapness of low level pikes does give you a chance of Fielding a better set of flank guards who could actually match/exceed the enemy attacker in quality. however that doesn't change the fact that the enemy by and large doesn't need as many units of spears, swords or light Cav as a pike formation dose and can take advantage of the low numbers of heavy Cav and 2-hander in most pike armies to wreak havoc on them.


Pikes can move an attack, that's the Spear Wall - Advance column in the stats. They performed only slightly less well in an advancing attack than in a braced defense.


Those result are interesting, however i based my statement on the fact that when pikes switch to words they tend to be massacred in my experience, and if you order them to attack the walk into the enemy formation, try to lower their pikes then instantly switch to swords. That was the point that prompted this statement.


Again, that's not what my tests showed. They clobbered the swordsmen time after time and were, at least in the Spear Wall - attack, unbeatable. At least for the 10 tests. If I was really doing this right, I'd do 100. But then I'd never play the game....


Yes they won, but they took heavy losses doing it and if those had been working 2-handers, or 2 units at once (bot of which should be the norm for what pikes are facing), they are going to get soundly trounced. Even a few missile kills just prior to the melee with a unit of peasant archers would have messed things up totally against one unit of swords. never mind 2 units of fixed 2-handers.


I absolutely agree. I think the pike workaround ruins the balance and ruins pikemen. However, if you just want to see people get mowed down by a bunch of pointy sticks and aren't really looking for a 'balance', I'm sure it's a lot of fun.

I'd agree with your first point, but, (depending on circumstances), not your second. The Pike fix ruins the balance by reducing the flank/rear vulnerabilities, and by making the speed at which they kill the enemy too high. it's impossibbile to tie them down because they kill the enemy so quickly.

On the other hand I have almost no issues with pikes killing 10 of the enemy for every pikemen they lose (but ONLY so long as they are attacked head on). Thats the entire point of pikes. to be so destructive in terms of kill rates from the front thats it's simply not even remotely possible to launch a head on attack. you either have to shoot them down, or go around them. Thus in general i have no issues with seeing "people get mowed down by a bunch of pointy sticks". Thats what pikes are supposed to do head on, they just aren't supposed to do it very quickly, which is one of the current issues with the Pike Fix. It raise the rate at which pikes kill to insane levels.


This is not what I observed. Throughout the many battles that I watched closely, every single time there were at least a handful of pikemen sticking to their pikes. If there weren't, then we would expect outcomes closer to the Infantry Charge stats.

However, I agree that Pikemen switch to fast. I'm almost certain that it's a distance function, however it seems to be omnidirectional when it should only apply to enemies in front of the pikeman.

Though I think this needs to be fixed, it needs to be fixed in conjunction with the shield bug fix. Fixing this but not the shield bug will make the Pikemen far too powerful as they are already balanced in relation to shieldless swordsmen.

Different people seem to get different results with the switching, and considering some of the online issues that crop up for a few people I'm beginning to believe that some people have a slightly different game or something. It really depends on who you talk to as to what behavior is observed.

I agree that any changes need to be made in relation to working Shields though.

[pike master]

yeah after reading my part in the thread i can see how someone would be confused as to my stance so i will make it clear. i am totally teed off by the horrible performance of the pikemen in the game. i want better pike mechanics withoout a mod. and i want the visual animation bug fixed as well where the pikes look like the pikes arnt lowered when they near melee when in fact they are.

check this out.

"schiltrom formation- forms a spear/pike wielding unit into a circular formation,with all troops facing outwards. this is a useful defensive formation when outnumbered or surrounded."

man if i had read the strategy book and said wow if i buy this game i will get to put my pikes in schiltrom. cool! then i buy game and find out i cant.

that almost sounds like an issue you could bring them to @@@@@@ on for @@@@@@ advertisement.

what about this on page 55 concerning the spearwall

"spear wall formaiton-this ability allows a spear-wielding unit to form up a deadly wall of spikes that makes them extremely difficult to attack from the front. while in this formation , the unit cannot run and moves slowly."

notice the words extremely difficult. it seems that whoever took part in writing the book was under the illusion that CA was going to improve on pike performance and not decrease it.

not his fault by the way

the first description was on page 56 of the instuction manual.

i guess sometimes i get kinda cynical about my comments and they can be misunderstood. but theoretically all they would have to do is remove the new code for the pikemen and replace them with the old roman code. but im no software writer.

[NefariousWolf]

Erm, thats not the shield bug fix. The shield bug fix is half the shield value rounded up into armor, half the shield value rounded down into defense skill, and shield value set to 0/

It seems my terminology is getting a little lax, causing confusion. The shield bug 'workaround' is half the shield value rounded up into armor, half the shield value rounded down into defense skill and shield set to 0; and thanks for releasing a mod that includes that so the game is playable again.

The shield bug 'fix' makes shields work as originally intended, ie shield strength added to total defense (not 'defense skill') instead of subtracted. This results in the relative defense increase of 2x shield strength.



TBH, I'm not sure I follow your argument at all. You say that pikemen are bugged and only survive because other units are bugged as well. How then does it then follow that because everything is happily bugged together, the vanilla game is balanced and everyone should be satisfied?
It doesn't. Swordsmen and Pikemen are balanced relative to eachother, imo. Therefore a shield bug fix will unbalance them in relation to each other.

However, shiled-bearing units are not balanced with relation to pretty much anything else. Therefore we need a shield bug fix.

Therefore we need both a pike fix and a shield bug fix.

@Carl
Great post again Carl. I think we're mostly in agreement, maybe only slightly differing over whether pikes should only trounce swordsmen or *really* trounce swordsmen. I can't say I'm entirely decided on that point myself, so I'm hardly going to argue it.

We have very different approaches to using pikes though. I would never make an entire Pike army, the whole thing would be too cumbersome and immobile, as you have pointed out. Rather, I have 2 or 3 pike units which either form the center of my melee line of battle or act as a solid wall behind which my artillery can do it's business.

This later approach is my favorite. I've trounced the AI several times using a line of pikemen blocking the enemy from my siege equiptment and missiles with a handful of supporting units on either side to keep me from getting flanked, and it seems to work well. I have my doubts aobut how well that would work in MP though. Any thoughts?

@Lusted
I forgot to mention this earlier, but I thought it was really interesting. When I ran my one test of pikes for swords with the LTC mod, the swordsmen didn't just rush me like they would in vanilla. Instead they run up, run back, sit around and think about it for a while, and finally, after a few minutes, rush me. I could practically see their general trying to coax the reluctant swordsmen to charge the wall of pointy sticks; unsuccesfully at first and finally winning out and getting his charge. It's moments like that that make LTC great.

[Lusted]

I haven't actully seen that, but im glad your enjoying my mod. I'll be itnerested to see the results of your testing in LTc, see if increasing the pikemens mass has had any effect on them.

[Carl]

We have very different approaches to using pikes though. I would never make an entire Pike army, the whole thing would be too cumbersome and immobile, as you have pointed out. Rather, I have 2 or 3 pike units which either form the center of my melee line of battle or act as a solid wall behind which my artillery can do it's business.


Unless your using your Pikes as sacrificial units i doubt where using our pikes very differently at all.

Assuming for a moment they aren't sacrificial, you will even with 3 pikes STILL need units protecting their flanks. You will STILL need Cav to attack enemy archers and pin Cav trying to go around your flank guards. You'll also need spears to protect your flank guards from Cav and to attack pinned Cav. In fact I'd go so far as to say the differences in army composition if they are not sacrificial would be minimal in many respects. You typically (IMHO), need 2 units of swords (or 1 of swords and 1 of 2-handers if you can), on each flank along with a decent spear unit to back them up. you also need one light Cav and one spear to pin and attack enemy Cav, plus another light Cav per flank to attack enemy missile units. that leaves you with 8 slots to spend on some pikes plus whatever else you want. This army however can support anything from 1 pike to 8 pikes, and can even be used as the core of a non-pike army if you replace the pikes with heavy Cav and archers. It's one of the cornerstones of the army.

On the other hand if your not going to extra lengths (compared t what you'd do for a normal unit), to protect their flanks and prevent the enemy using them as pincushions, the chances are your using them sacrificially, either as something to slow the enemy down with, or as an arrow magnet to soak up damage. This is something I don't like to see and is one of the reasons I'd prefer to see more expensive pikes, currently their cheap price makes them excellent cannon fodder as you can lose the lot without it costing you much either in money or in the final victory calculation. If pikes where fairly expensive their is a good chance players would tend to try and keep them around longer and actually use them to fight with.

I'd also point out that the way i use pikes is precisely as a solid center, a center so solid no one is likely to ever attempt to attack it. to attempt a head on attack against pikes should be outright suicidal no matter what melee unit your using.

Far more likely the enemy will try to go around the pikes by attacking and attempting to bypass your flank guards, whilst sending something cheap and weak units to occupy your pikes. As a result you have to send the pikes out of the center toward the flanks to attack the units attacking the flank guards, they are very unlikely to attack your center head on and if you don't go after them they will demolish your flanks then your pikes.

Therefore I don't believe our way of using pikes does differ, your simply using less of them and more of the optional non-pike units. I still consider that type in theme with what I described earlier, it's just a variation, I actually used the 6-8 Pikes example as an optimistic estimate, 4-6 would be more common for most factions.

[pike master]

i dont see the problem with pike spam armies. the swiss used nearly all pike armies.

i hope a modder could answer this one cause it might actually get me to get into it.

can you replace the sword secondary weapon with a halberd?

[dopp]

No, we can't. That would require editing the models themselves. Giving them a secondary stat line of a halberd was something I tried, but they still pull out swords because that's what their model file appears to specify.

I still don't understand what the fuss is about, since both the shield fix and the pike 'fix' are compatible and are often packaged together in mods. Since they both fix something broken, I don't see why one should be omitted in favor of the other.

@Carl: Pike cost is horribly low even for vanilla M2TW. Considering that the other 'modern, cheap, mass-produced' unit (musketeers) is pretty expensive, pikes should have their recruit costs doubled or even tripled. Their upkeep is competitive with other units, while their infrastructure cost is significantly more expensive, being in most cases one or even two barracks levels higher than any other melee unit in the game. Only their base cost is abnormally low.

[Microwavegerbil]

To add my two cents, last night I downloaded Carl's problemfixer and tried out some pikes against several different types of swordsmen and cav. My result each and every time was that guard mode didn't seem to make a difference and clicking to attack right after the pikes absorb the charge resulted in a wholesale slaughter of anything the pikes were up against, even janissary heavy infantry, dismounted boyar sons, and the heaviest of heavy cavalry.

The charge is funky because noone dies in it, like reported earlier, people just get stuck eternally running on the pike. While doing my fights I noticed that without the order to attack the pikes just didn't do a whole lot of actual stabbing, but once ordered to attack after the enemy gets stuck on the spear wall while charging decimates everything. I love it, although pike prices need to be adjusted upwards.

[pike master]

@dopp since as you said they are both packaged together does that mean the shield fix mentioned would also tweak pikes?

maybe i misunderstood i just wanted to get that cleared up.

also i noticed that halberds and swordstaff when placed in guard mode with spearwall do quited a bit of leveling their weapons and thrusting instead of swinging. has there been any attempt at swapping those animations or is that inaccessible?

[NefariousWolf]

I still don't understand what the fuss is about, since both the shield fix and the pike 'fix' are compatible and are often packaged together in mods. Since they both fix something broken, I don't see why one should be omitted in favor of the other.


Again, there's a big difference between a 'fix' and a 'workaround'. What we have now is a shield workaround. It's just a temporary measure that approximates what the shield is supposed to do. It still doesn't make shields act like shields.

The same is true of the pike workaround, except that from what I've heard it creates a huge imbalance in which pikemen are nigh invincible. It removes their rear and flank vulnerabilites and allows them to engage with their pikes at absurdly close range. IMHO, it completely unbalances pikemen and turns them into just another melee unit, albeit a super-melee unit.

So, 'the fuss', or at least my fuss, is about CA fixing pikemen when they fix the shields. And by fix, I mean really fix, not just a workaround. Some things that need to be fixed:
1. More Poking
2. An anti-charge effect that reflects (more) damage against the charger
3. More poking
4. But not *always* poking
5. Faster deployment of pikes after completing a movement
6. Deployed pikes during an advance
7. More poking

So, those are all the fixes I can think of. Anybody have anything else to add to the list?

[Caliburn]

Just to comment on the historical side with my very humble historical knowledge...

Yes, it is quite sad that once the first line is engaged in melee, everyone pulls out the swords, while the men behind could still poke with their pikes. Also, it is impossible to make "blended" units with swordsmen in front (as with Doppelsöldner in the Landsknecht organisation, those of which are of course present as zweihanders and stuff) and the pikes just behind them. But then again, the game is based on moving the different elements as smaller units.

To comment on the discussion of swordsmen attacking pikemen head on, I read somewhere about a type of Spanish light swordsmen, who used swords and bucklers. Their tactic was to roll under the enemies' pikes and then hack away - takes quite a lot of skill, not to mention nerve, to do something like that. The other infantry charges such as zweihanders hacking the pike points aside - with skill, such precariously balanced weapons as pikes could be turned aside by a skilled hand, to form a clear path into the formation just for a few precious moments.

CA has always liked its Hollywood touches (the Kensai, Herwood Foresters, Arcani, Ridley Scott -onagers, Camel gunners...), so I just wonder, why those nifty buckler guys weren't introduced. Or not - too much animation for a trivial feature.

[NefariousWolf]

I finished up some tests in LTC. They're the exact same format as my earlier tests, but I only did 5 (10 is kinda overkill) and I only tested Spear Wall - hold and Spear Wall - advance. The only change in LTC that should effect this test is the incorporated shield bug workaround (feel free to jump on me if I'm wrong here)


Spear Wall - holdSpear Wall - advance
67/23 D72/11 D
63/20 D71/4 D
67/16 D74/8 D
71/26 D70/12 D
66/14 D71/9 D

What this shows is that once shields are fixed, pikemen will be at a huge disadvantage against swordsmen. If you think that balanced pikemen should be able to hold against swordsmen, then this proves that we need a pike fix as well as a shield bug fix.

(I've just about given up on making tables if this doesn't work.)

[FactionHeir]

I just did a few tests with French Lancers vs Scottish Noble Pikemen on VH, grassy plains.

What I wanted to test was whether pikes still kill cavalry charging their rear and from my observations, that actually still is the case.

When charging my lancers (always using double click btw) into the back of the noble pikes, they would always lose between 2-5 units right on impact when the pikes were moving (walking) away from them at the time of impact or bracing still towards the other side.

I guess thats still a bit of an improvement from RTW, but not optimal.
Also, the cav units just died on impacting the rear, not from getting hit by a stray pike (zommed in fairly close and had multiple observations on that)

OTOH, charging those lancers into the front pikes would result in 60-70% deaths of cavalry.

On a slightly related note, some units in custom games cannot be fully upgraded in terms of armor. How do I fix that? (i.e. lancers and gothics cannot at all and some other units only 1 or 2 of 3 levels listed in the EDU)

[Carl]

When charging my lancers (always using double click btw) into the back of the noble pikes, they would always lose between 2-5 units right on impact when the pikes were moving (walking) away from them at the time of impact or bracing still towards the other side.


This is about normal against ANY infantry unit from the rear.

here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1447939&postcount=165) is a link to a post outling how i think the formed charge mechanics and spearmen/pikemen interact based on what is known and observational evidance. In effect if the first hit a model suffers from a formed charge dosen't kill him then the cav man takes a hit in return, this would easilly account for the losses your seeing.

[dopp]

@FactionHeir: Only some units get 3 levels of armor (usually the ones with no armor to begin with). Lancers have max armor so they can't be upgraded at all.

Also, try ramming cavalry into pikemen engaged to the front. They have zero charge resistance to the rear then.

@Caliburn: Sword and Buckler men are in the Spanish/Portuguese lineup, recruitable from castles. Trying to use them in conjunction with pikemen (ie mixing them in among the unit), however, is awkward since the engine doesn't support mixed units too well. The best option with them is as flankers.

Historically, they were not a huge success anyway, being more of a 'secret weapon' to tip the balance in a close pike fight, rather than some sort of 'pike-counter' that could beat pikemen in a straight fight. In other words, they worked well when attacking enemy formations already engaged by their own pikemen, but got plowed over (as might be expected) when they tried to fight pikemen on their own. The Tercio gradually dispensed with their services (and halberdiers, who fulfilled a similar role) in favor of more pikemen.

[pike master]

one has to remember that sword and bucklers trained as specialists in the function of anti pike soldiers. the idea was that the sword and buckler men would be deployed in a crouched position protected inside the pike wall of the tercio formtion.

when the swiss type formation engaged the tercios it occupied their efforts with the badwar that the sword and buckler men could get inside and start their bloody work.

also the downfall of the swiss was their decreased use of halberdiers in their formations by that time. the pinnacle of the swiss was when they still depended on the halberdier in the middle of their formations with a outer rim of pikemen around the formation.

later on they turned to almost all pikes.without the tercios occupying the swiss pike the sword and bucklers wouldnt have a chance historically. and it was not a sure fire way to make the pike obsolete it just helped the spanish in a few battles.

[FactionHeir]

@FactionHeir: Only some units get 3 levels of armor (usually the ones with no armor to begin with). Lancers have max armor so they can't be upgraded at all.

Actually lancers, gothic knights and famiglia ducale all can be upgraded once (bronze) according to EDU but in custom games, you can only upgrade the famiglia ducale at all.
Similarly, mailed knights are listed for 2 upgrades in the EDU but can only be upgraded once in custom games, but twice in campaign games.

[dopp]

You is reading the armor upgrade entry wrong. Lancers have an entry of '6', meaning that they start with advanced plate (6) and cannot be further upgraded. The ducales have an entry of '5, 6', meaning that they start in full plate (5) with the option to upgrade to shiny advanced plate (6). To doublecheck, look at the armor upgrade model entry. Lancers have only one model listed, which is the one they start with. Ducales have two: the base level one and the shiny upgraded one. Therefore, the Ducales can be upgraded to shiny armor but the Lancers can't because they are already wearing the shiny armor in the first place.

Something else I've noticed is that HRE players have been robbed. Landsknecht pikemen are enabled in the units file for HRE, but there's no option to recruit them in the buildings file. I wonder if this has been reported or corrected already?

[R'as al Ghul]

Something else I've noticed is that HRE players have been robbed. Landsknecht pikemen are enabled in the units file for HRE, but there's no option to recruit them in the buildings file. I wonder if this has been reported or corrected already?

I've thought they are mercenary only?

[dopp]

No, apparently not. Ownership: Slave, HRE. Pure mercs (eg Swiss Pikemen) are slave-only.

Considering that HRE can recruit the excellent Reiter (another 'mercenary' unit) directly, it makes no sense that they can't hire Landsknechts. Landsknechts are pretty weak pikemen, however. Their attack and morale are above average, but they like their fancy clothes too much to wear any armor, and thus cannot be upgraded.

[Carl]

No, apparently not. Ownership: Slave, HRE. Pure mercs (eg Swiss Pikemen) are slave-only.

That means nothing, it's used for custom and the EDB file only, (if it's in the EDB file but not the ownership line it throws up an error in the log file).

They ARE mercanaries and are available in the following provinces to Catholic and Orthodox Factions from 1470 onwards:

Antwerp, Bruges, Stettin, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Magdeburg, Breslau, Innsbruck, Prague, Vienna, Nuremburg, Hohenstauffen, Cracow, Vilnius, Thorn, Halych, Riga.

I'm also pretty sure theirs a mercenary only entry in with a group of entries mixed into the artillery entries.

[pike master]

i changed the mercenary arrival dates and maximum numbers since i usually won the game before i got the chance to hire any mercenaries. i think i made the flemish pike available in 1200 and the swiss and landsneckts avalaible in 1250. and arqs available in 1250 because in default year i would already be able to recruit arqs so there wasnt a reason to hire any. and in the area where the flemish are i gave them a 10 max and in bern i gave the swiss a 10 max. i dont know what that will do to my game though when i download the new patch since it is in the vanilla version. i have the original files backed up though.

the neat thing is that the enemy ai will hire the swiss mercenaries so it makes it a challenge.

[Lusted]

No, apparently not. Ownership: Slave, HRE. Pure mercs (eg Swiss Pikemen) are slave-only.

If a merc unit has more than just slave on its ownership line it means it is available to that faction in custom battle in some era.

[dopp]

If so then Landsknechts are one of the few 'merc' units that have ownership tags other than slave.

[a_ver_est]

Just a curiosity, here (https://youtube.com/watch?v=je-c81wwrpA) you have a cut from the film "Capitan alatriste" of the battle of Rocroi. You can see a Tercio unit (with pikes, arquebusiers and sword man) fighting.

If you don't want to see the film end do not watch the link


I am not sure if the scene is historically accurate, comments are welcome.

[pike master]

why not watch the film end do they start kissing each other after the battle like the sacred band would have~:pat:

i take that back that was a good clip. i noticed that the pikes are represented as shorter than most people state so they can be manipulated a lot better. and the badwar was impressive but i was hoping that instead of pistoliers they might have sent in uber heavy cavalry so i could watch them get owned by lowly pikemen.

[a_ver_est]

why not watch the film end do they start kissing each other after the battle like the sacred band would have~:pat:


Some people would like to watch the whole movie before knowing how it ends.

[pike master]

chill dude

[Furious Mental]

Speaking of rolling under the pike hedge, I'd appreciate a spear wall formation that doesn't make pikemen useless when attacking or defending against an enemy unit lower down on a slope.

[anders]

Pikemen are a defensive unit. Swordsmen are an attacking unit. So far I haven't thought of it any other way.

some pike need to have offensive capabilities in the game, swiss pike used to charge.

[pike master]

in that movie clip you will see the pike army advancing on each other it was impressive

[Furious Mental]

I don't know about vanilla but if you take away their swords so that they just use their pikes, pikemen do grind down enemy units pretty effectively if you let the enemy charge you first and then take them out of guard mode.

[Carl]

I don't know about vanilla but if you take away their swords so that they just use their pikes, pikemen do grind down enemy units pretty effectively if you let the enemy charge you first and then take them out of guard mode.

They fail tottally in vanillia, the troubl is they are a bit quick at their meat grinding trick without Swords, I don't want the meat today, I want it at the start of next week :laugh4:.

[NefariousWolf]

I don't know about vanilla but if you take away their swords so that they just use their pikes, pikemen do grind down enemy units pretty effectively if you let the enemy charge you first and then take them out of guard mode.


We were talking about that earlier in the thread. If you take away the swords from pikemen, then they become way way way too powerful. They lose their vulnerabilities from flank and rear attacks and need not maintain a rigid formation. In essence, they are no longer pikemen. They become a super-human pokey mass of death dealing sticks, much to the detriment of game balance, but to the amusement of all.

[Furious Mental]

I don't see what the problem is. They don't seem overpowered when I use them. And pikemen are should be able to point their pikes at enemies attacking from any direction. That's the whole idea of a pike square.

[pike master]

its funny in the vanilla the ai seems to be awfully good at keeping its pikes in action. not quite sure what is going on there. but a push through with infantry and then an attack will decimate them.

that push through has got to be fixed. sheeesh!