Blacksmith realistic?

[fallen851]

There is something about blacksmith's giving "+1" to weapons and armor that is very odd to me, and I find it hard to believe they are realistic.

It really reminds me of playing an RTS game like Warcraft, and building a blacksmith so I could upgrade the axes of my Orcs to crush the human scum.

Obviously the troops begin with weapons, but is it is likely that having blacksmith in town would "upgrade" all their weapons, or make better weapons than those imported?

I don't know anything about ancient weapon making, just curious.

[Foot]

I believe that the consensus is to remove the blacksmith complex soon enough, for the very same reasons you raise above. However I believe that we will still be giving some small weapons and armour bonuses to the higher MIC levels for certain (if not all factions) to represent the military industry that those buildings represent.

Foot

[Kugutsu]

I think its to show that having decent weapons which dont bend or shatter when you use them increases the effectiveness of a unit. I imagine its something quite tricky to model, as weapon quality would have an effect - read Polybius' description of how the gaul's swords bent after a few blows and had to be straightened underfoot... Not the most useful habit in the middle of a battle...

Its certainly better than the triple upgrade you got in vanilla, where you could get 'gold' swords and shields which were just silly...

[Boyar Son]

You may not need gold type swords now but when the Germanians invade...you know, it'll be hard.

[Kugutsu]

Oh, I've met them...

They arent too tough individually, but theres so MANY of them...
I have figured out that they rout pretty easily if you hit them with heavy cavalry, then its just a case of slaughtering as many as possible. The gastiz are pretty tough cookies though. I tend to sort of destroy their armies around them, then try to separate them and pick them off a unit at a time.

[HFox]

Rather than armourer specifically......couldn't you show improvements in the supply base/chain providing the unit equipment.

So the blacksmith would become the military supply depot and have an area of influence. Obviously a blacksmith, fletcher, saddler, armourer would all be part of that supply depot. The more advanced the supply depot advances, the wider it can supply troops around the population centre and keep them supplied. If a unit is in an area of supply, its equipment isnt affected.

But as a unit travels away from the supply point, akin to the well fed/rationing changes in troops, the equipment of a unit degrades. This would also either entail periodic refitting of troops or positive effects as a unit returns into an area of supply.This could even lead to negative effects to armour/weapon maybe. your phalanx may be well trained but using foraged pitchforks it suffers a -3 affect to attack.

The supply of replacement equipment can then be dependent on distance from nearest city and also time from last period spent in a city. So a unit degrades over time and also relative to the level of armour. So a skirmisher unit, two javelins and a loin cloth, will not suffer any degradation of equipment, but a heavy infantry/cataphactoi unit would.

This could be mitigated by a trait of the generals, blacksmith, commisary officer, foragering officer, etc.

Also you could then have supply depots as another build option to watchtowers/camps. These extend the range of influnce of supply out from a town, cost to run and can also be looted by bandits and opponents and destroyed....

...hmm....maybe too complicated...best go to bed :)

[Foot]

Hfox you have a devious mind, but I suspect that is quite, quite, quite impossible.

Foot

[Spoofa]

that sounds outside of the RTW game engine =/ but a good idea none the less.

[fallen851]

Here is what I'm thinking, instead of a blacksmith giving better weapons, I think it should reduce unit cost due the fact the unit no longer has to use imported weapons.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

What's wrong about blacksmiths? I think the blacksmith represents the presence of some kind of better weapon- / armour-manufacturers in a settlement, who can provide better armour and weapons for your troops. Those who are trained there, are equipped with the better stuff, and those who come there, can be upgraded to have the better stuff. I don't think this is very unrealistic...

[Spoofa]

isnt a blacksmith more realistic though? specifically for the romans, since the reason you have to conquore those provinces for the polybian reforms is so you can be exposed to iberian blades and celtic mail, am i right? and if u conquore provinces that have had years of experience making such weapons and armor shouldnt they be able to make better equipment then say.... arpi? or some place where they have little experience in making chainmail? maybe they know specific "secrets" that would enable them to make the mail more effective. I dunno just throwing it out there.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Better blacksmiths are written into the descriptions of the MIC's themselves already if folks would take a look at them. It's natural that we just include the increases in the better MIC's instead of in a total complex - though we can include blacksmiths on the battlemap still with MIC buildings. I believe we have had someone working on setting this system up for a little while now, though it has not been implemented yet.

[Boyar Son]

Well you could implement bonus moral for blacksmith as a supply base (good idea HFox) among other things

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Better blacksmiths are written into the descriptions of the MIC's themselves already if folks would take a look at them. It's natural that we just include the increases in the better MIC's instead of in a total complex - though we can include blacksmiths on the battlemap still with MIC buildings. I believe we have had someone working on setting this system up for a little while now, though it has not been implemented yet.
Yeah, I've been wondering why there were blacksmiths as well as one level of MIC including "and Weaponsmiths".

[LordCurlyton]

I personally have no problems with the blacksmith but it is sort of odd to have two sets, as it were. Instead, maybe you could make the separate Blacksmith just give something like an increase in tradeable goods (to represent smiths not directly employed full time by the army) and then restrict blacksmiths to areas that were noted for exeptional craftsmanship? Just a thought...

[Domitius Ulpianus]

I really like the idea of integrating some bonuses into the upper MIC complexes...if I understood right. I'm not very fond of the blacksmith building...never was not even in vanilla.

[Foot]

I personally have no problems with the blacksmith but it is sort of odd to have two sets, as it were. Instead, maybe you could make the separate Blacksmith just give something like an increase in tradeable goods (to represent smiths not directly employed full time by the army) and then restrict blacksmiths to areas that were noted for exeptional craftsmanship? Just a thought...

Because we a really stuck for space, I think we've decided to use the blacksmith complex for some more uniques. We love uniques.

Foot

[blacksnail]

Here is what I'm thinking, instead of a blacksmith giving better weapons, I think it should reduce unit cost due the fact the unit no longer has to use imported weapons.
This is a cool idea but is unfortunately not possible with the RTW engine. The capability which provides cost reduction for units does not actually work. A shame, really.

[Caratacos]

This is a cool idea but is unfortunately not possible with the RTW engine. The capability which provides cost reduction for units does not actually work. A shame, really.

How about the armourer ancillary (a can't actually remember what he does). But could he be used to reduce the cost of recruitment? oc this would be attached to a general and not a settlement... so not quite the same thing.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

How about the armourer ancillary (a can't actually remember what he does).
I think he increases morale for all troops on the battlefeild at the moment.

But could he be used to reduce the cost of recruitment? oc this would be attached to a general and not a settlement... so not quite the same thing.
:thumbsup:

[Thaatu]

I have no problem with blacksmiths, but I won't miss them either. I'm pretty sure there are some more important buildings that haven't made it in game yet.

[Maeran]

isnt a blacksmith more realistic though? specifically for the romans, since the reason you have to conquore those provinces for the polybian reforms is so you can be exposed to iberian blades and celtic mail, am i right? and if u conquore provinces that have had years of experience making such weapons and armor shouldnt they be able to make better equipment then say.... arpi? or some place where they have little experience in making chainmail? maybe they know specific "secrets" that would enable them to make the mail more effective. I dunno just throwing it out there.

Perhaps this would work better if it was connected with specific resources (tin and iron, and possibly wood- for sheilds ships and shafts)? That way you have a more logical reason for arms manufacture would be better in one area than another.

Can blacksmiths, like mines and naval ports be limited to certain places?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Can blacksmiths, like mines and naval ports be limited to certain places?Yes, I beleive that any building can.

[user999]

"since the reason you have to conquore those provinces for the polybian reforms..."

Meh:dizzy2: ..which provinces for polybian? ive only just started the romani campaign

thanks

[Shifty_GMH]

Might as well throw in my 2 cents....

Having a weaponsmith/blacksmith already included in the MICs (as TA pointed out) and then having a separate structure seems a little redundant to me. I kind of like HFox's idea. I also like the idea that a blacksmith could still be built in regions that were historically known to produce weapons (sort of along the lines that Maeran suggested). By building one, that region could get a trade bonus. Just an idea.

[Shifty_GMH]

"since the reason you have to conquore those provinces for the polybian reforms..."

Meh:dizzy2: ..which provinces for polybian? ive only just started the romani campaign

thanks


The answer your looking for can be found in the FAQ or here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79770

[user999]

:oops: sorry
thanks

[blacksnail]

How about the armourer ancillary (a can't actually remember what he does). But could he be used to reduce the cost of recruitment? oc this would be attached to a general and not a settlement... so not quite the same thing.
Yeah, that's general-only and we could not really control when it appeared/whether or not a character could receive it as part of the limited number of slots.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

About MICs, in my Mak campaign there's no picture in the describing of the level 5 factional MIC.

[blacksnail]

About MICs, in my Mak campaign there's no picture in the describing of the level 5 factional MIC.
At the very bottom of the MIC description you should see a "beta error reporting" message. Could you either take a screenshot with that in the image, or just mention what it says here?

[Danest]

Here's how I see the blacksmiths as being potentially realistic (though I agree that they're a problematic building)... Let's imagine that Sweboz archers (I'm making up examples, I don't know if Sweboz archers exist) conquers a gallic town with a much more advanced metalwork facility than his little german village had. I can't help but think that the sweboz archer could take note that this gallic town produces a much higher quality of iron, and sharper arrowheads through its superior "blacksmith" building. He'd be able to replace his old crappy german iron arrowheads with the superior gallic arrowheads - this seems quite possible, I'd. This would be an entirely different act than recruiting the local archers from the MIC, who might very well be different from sweboz archers on issues other than just iron. Perhaps building a "blacksmith" building in the town represents that the town has men in it that have a higher understanding of metallugy (maybe they would require a mine to be in that town first, thereby limiting the number of these facilities?) I'm sure such places must have existed, that were entirely seperate from the kind of military training offered in that town (MIC/Barracks).