Campaign as Carthage

[HamilcarBarca]

Congratulations on v. .81 - its a much better game! I have just played as Carthage (I use the BI exe), I did work out how to recruit elephants :idea2: and the Lusotann not only moved, they became a major threat! Rome launched naval invasions of Corsica and Sardinia! All good.:laugh4:

Some questions though;

1. Is VH/H the best combination?
2. My economy seemed to just limp along... I was often in debt, struggled to keep armies in Spain (vs. Lustotann), Sicily (vs. persistent KH invasions) and Tripolitania (vs. Ptolemies) AND manage my cities to prevent economic collapse and civil revolt... how can I best manage my economy? Mines +1 at 32,000 mnai and 20-turns to build were only able to be built very rarely... should I build some rather than others? Are some mines more lucrative than others?
3. While the ptolemies and KH seemed to use "balanced" armies - with a good mix of units and battle tactics - the Lustotann and Romans seemed to just use stacks of cheap & weak units. Is a better (more affordable) game to use cheap armies myself? The "balanced field armies" that I like to build were just too expensive. I was never able to afford to build elephants or hire mercs!
4. Is it ever possible for Carthage to build Lusotann units in Iberia? The Lustotan preview suggested some of these guys were recruitable... but I was never able to.

My Carthaginian state was finally overwhelmed in 185 BC; the Ptolemies overran me in Africa, Sicily was conquered by KH, and those endless streams of Lusotann "cheap and weak" stacks finally got me when I was so deep in debt that I couldn't build troops...:sweatdrop:

H.

[Thaatu]

Hmm... I'm playing with Carthage at the moment (242BC), so here's my take.

1. VH/M is the best. Hard battle difficulty might make some units very unbalanced in AI control.

2. Some provinces have better mining resources, thus making their mines more effective. In Mastia, Siga and Karali income from the basic mines is 600 while in Gader and in the Mauritanian town (can't remember the name) it is 1200. So building mining complexes to the two latter ones is a priority. Also focusing on trade ports is essential at the beginning of the game.

3. Balanced armies can also be cheap. Some armies don't need elites. Don't "overstack" your armies, meaning don't make them full stacks just because.

4. I have no idea, I haven't expanded in Iberia.

Your closing statement kind of reminds me of the vanilla intro for Carthage... "Carthage, gone! Why would Baal send such a vision? He is not cruel." "...I will have no more false visions and... I think the children will be quiet tonight." Damn I love that intro.

[blacksnail]

Glad to hear you're having fun with the mod!


1. Is VH/H the best combination?
There's your problem! VH campaign/M battlemap is the recommendation. H gives a flat +3 attack and defense bonus to all enemy units; it does not make the AI any smarter. This makes cheap and weak units cheap and not so weak, which means the AI is more likely to spam them at you ceaselessly. The BI.exe may also affect this somewhat; I'm not sure how it affects unit priority.


2. My economy seemed to just limp along... I was often in debt, struggled to keep armies in Spain (vs. Lustotann), Sicily (vs. persistent KH invasions) and Tripolitania (vs. Ptolemies) AND manage my cities to prevent economic collapse and civil revolt... how can I best manage my economy? Mines +1 at 32,000 mnai and 20-turns to build were only able to be built very rarely... should I build some rather than others? Are some mines more lucrative than others?
Some mines are more lucrative, yes. Also, ensure you have trade rights with your neighbors. Farming and trading ports are your friends. Try to focus your expansion into Iberia first, keeping Romani and Ptolemies sated through diplomatic means. Give Romani 200 mnai tribute over 20 turns as a gift to help reduce the tensions of close borders. At all means avoid a war with the Ptolemies at first, even if it means ceding ground to them. Try to form an alliance with them at all possible to help discourage their advance - the Carthaginian/Romani/Ptolemaioi Tripartite Pact, or somesuch. Meanwhile, remake Iberia in your own image.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Diplomacy is your best friend...pick your fights...go after weak enemies, develop your economy and keep peace with the big boys....when you become yourself a big boy then you can go and pay them a visit at their cities ....a permanent one that is :beam:

If you start fighting everybody around you , specially too early your economy will colapse, because you will have to keep pumping armies out just to keep what you have.

Also, try to keep garrisons at a minimun. When you take a new city...kill everybody if you have to, in order to keep peace (specially when you have culture penalties).

Hope this helps.

[Sygrod]

I am playing the same campaign at M/M, since I do not have a handle on all the details yet. In my campaign, it is now 228BC, and I am only at war with Aedui and Lusotann, and with the Lusotann only because two northern Iberian towns I had taken defected. The war with Aedui is active with Aedui sending wave after wave of armies at my forts defending the river crossings in Lacetania and Celtiberia. The Lusotann are passive. No battle has been fought with them.

First thing I did was to build a mine. That stalled all other progress, but once the mine was built, I had cash flow. Since then I have concentrated on cash flow buildings first. I built the cheapest units I could and used these in conjunction with generals for the strong cavalry punch. Diplomats were sent all over the map to obtain trade agreements.

Here are your best units for the money spent:
1. Iberian skirmishers. This is a large unit. They are cheap and make better garrison than militia. Recruit in Mastia, which should be your primary recruitment town. I have about 40 of these and they pack a good punch. Two of these units throwing spears will route an enemy unit with two volleys each.
2. Balearic slingers. Small unit. Good for ranged mayhem. Recruit as mercs or in Bocchoris.
3. Heavy Libyan Spearmen. These can form your main line for enemy to smash against, while your missile troops whittle them down.
4. Either Numidian or Iberian skirmish cavalry. These are good units for the money. They down't have the staying power in melee like the heavy cavalry, but that is where your generals fit in.

Then recruit some heavy infantry as you can afford. Elite pikemen are good for defence, but lack speed for offence. Elephants are expensive and can not be trusted in a fight. If you keep a navy (recommended) then have at least one heavy. It will keep those pesky pirates in their place.

/Sygrod

[Empty]

Have just completed my Qart Hadasht campaign. Have been playing on VH/H just like You. As You will have to start from the beginning here is what I've been doing:
1. Get rid of that unnecessary ships. Their upkeep is significant and during first 10-20 turns every single mnai matters:yes: Leave one ship to connect Sicilia with Africa and one to connect Mastia and Ippone. And keep them in the docks.
2. Raise taxes wherever possible.
3. Spent 10000 mnai You have on economic buildings, do not hire new troops, but upgrade barracks in Gader so that they will afford You to recruit Cetrarii and skirm. cavalry.
4. Gather all available units in africa in one fist ( not including garrisons and send 3-4 units of Iberians to Ippone to protect it from possible attacks of Numidians) and transport them to Sicilia. Besiege Syracusae and wait 2 years, don't assault. When Hiero will sally defend and use elephants. Wisely used they can win You almost any battle. When victorious, massacre the population:skull: , this will give You 9000-10000 mnai. Do the same with Messana.
5. Leave small garrisons in Syracousai and Messana and transfer Iberian units back to Qart Hadasht, then to Ippone and then to Gader. By the time they arrive the barracks construction (point 3) should be finished so You will be able to retrain Your battered Iberian units.
6. By this time the Lusots should still be Your allies, but after conquering Sucum-Murgi they will surely hanker after Gader. Attack them with retrained Iberiansbefore they turn into a real threat for You. If they still have only one home province, don't attack their troops in the field. go to their capital using military access (You are allies, remember) and besiege it unexpectedly and meanly. Use the elephants to break the walls the SAME TURN untill they bring reinforcements. If You gain a success they will be banished.

Well, thats the most difficult part. After that You should work out Your own strategy:yes: . Some more advices: do not capture Rhegion until You are a big boy because You'll face both Romans and Epirots, don't try to conquer Celtiberia unless You have a strong army (Moskon), and the last one: allways remember that You are playing on VH/H level so don't hire cheap units, they are 100% useless on the battlefield.

[Fondor_Yards]

How are you poor? In my 247 campain VH/H I make well over 75,000 a turn, despite all my recruitment, building, and armies *I have 2 full stacks in italy, 1 in iberia, 2 full stack garrisons in iberia, 1 full stack garrison in sicily, 3/4 of a stack sitting in a fort at my eastern african boarder and very large garrisons in basicly all my towns but my cores to discourage attacks from the Romans/Iberians/Seleucids/Ptolemaics/Epirotes/Rebels. Also 2 small transport navies and 2 huge war navies, 1 at iberia and 1 around italy now.* Have you taken the rest of west africa? The trade between south iberia and west africa there is insane, it's better then west africa/sicily trade routes. Gader, without a governor to give a zillion bonuses, was bringing in 10,000 from trade, and almost or more from the 2 advanced mines there. That was more *trade wise* then Carthage itself was making, till my governor there got good. And not that I got a governor in Gader, it's probably going to be making even more now.

Currently at war with only Rome *have pushed them up into north italy, they probably won't last long*, but am about to take the rest of free Iberia *have keep the Lustianians as allies with steady 1000-3000 as turn since like turn 10*, and will probably attack them once I take the last 3 free towns. I only have the med coast of iberia to this point.


Answer to number 4, yes you can in Sucum-Murgi and Oxtraca.

[Fondor_Yards]

Answer to number 4, yes you can in Sucum-Murgi and Oxtraca.

Just took those towns in my Carthage campain, and it seems you CAN'T recruit their units there.

[HamilcarBarca]

How are you poor? In my 247 campain VH/H I make well over 75,000 a turn, despite all my recruitment, building, and armies *I have 2 full stacks in italy, 1 in iberia, 2 full stack garrisons in iberia, 1 full stack garrison in sicily, 3/4 of a stack sitting in a fort at my eastern african boarder and very large garrisons in basicly all my towns but my cores to discourage attacks from the Romans/Iberians/Seleucids/Ptolemaics/Epirotes/Rebels. Also 2 small transport navies and 2 huge war navies, 1 at iberia and 1 around italy now.* Have you taken the rest of west africa? The trade between south iberia and west africa there is insane, it's better then west africa/sicily trade routes. Gader, without a governor to give a zillion bonuses, was bringing in 10,000 from trade, and almost or more from the 2 advanced mines there. That was more *trade wise* then Carthage itself was making, till my governor there got good. And not that I got a governor in Gader, it's probably going to be making even more now.

That's remarkable! :wall: I didn't conquer north africa (only Siga - not Tingis or Cirta) so maybe that is the trouble?

I did keep 3 navies in being - 2 penteres and 1 penekonter - so that's roughly 7000 mnai per turn. But no elephants :no:

But that doesn't account for your surpluses and my deficits! Maybe the BI exe calculates income or changes trade in some way?

I will now start a new campaign on H/M (still using BI exe) and see what that does. This time I will overrun all north africe west of Carthage.

H.

[Fondor_Yards]

That's remarkable! :wall: I didn't conquer north africa (only Siga - not Tingis or Cirta) so maybe that is the trouble?

I did keep 3 navies in being - 2 penteres and 1 penekonter - so that's roughly 7000 mnai per turn. But no elephants :no:

But that doesn't account for your surpluses and my deficits! Maybe the BI exe calculates income or changes trade in some way?

I will now start a new campaign on H/M (still using BI exe) and see what that does. This time I will overrun all north africe west of Carthage.

H.

Yea that area is litteraly a gold mine *ever provience there has at least 1 mine, 2 of them have 2 iirc*.

[HamilcarBarca]

I saw a mention in these threads to a "Punic War Script". Is this something that can be used by Carthage too, or is it only for Rome?

As far as I can see, Carthage can take Syracuse and Messana without offending any major power.

H.

[Numahr]

I saw a mention in these threads to a "Punic War Script". Is this something that can be used by Carthage too, or is it only for Rome?

As far as I can see, Carthage can take Syracuse and Messana without offending any major power.

H.
There is no such script. But be sure that, if you play on VH, the power holding Reghio (most probably the Romanii or the Epeirots) will feel provocated nonetheless and may well attack you before long.

In my own campaign, I conquered Messana when the Epeirots, very powerful then, conquered Reghio. The Carthaginian Senate wanted to secure Sicily from a possible return of Pyrrhus. After a couple of turns, the Epeirots attacked me at Messana. They had been weakened by Rome by then, and quick operations resulted in Hamalcar Barca seizing Reghio. But then Rome, now almost alone in Italy, having expelled the Epeirots, felt provocated and sent a powerful legion to expell me. Thus started the first "Punic" war...

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

@OP

What you say about the income is really strange. I don't know it's because I try to use cheap and small garrisons and 3 max field armies (spain, sicily, leptis) but I never had any money problems with Carthage. In fact, there were too much money around. I was getting 25k mnai per turn. I decided to make an army with elite units only just to cut down on that. Total upkeep was 12000 mnai!



There is no such script

Yes, there is. It is for the Romani though. If you move an army near Messene you will get an advisor warning saying that the Qarthadastim consider it a casus belli if a Roman army stays near Messene. If you still stay near it, in the next turn, war is declared.

[Numahr]

My point was: there is no script for someone declaring war on Carthage when Carthage conquers Messana; but, as my experience illustrates, the neighbor will probably declare war of its own.

But yes, there is a script that makes Carthage declare war on Roma if Roma sieges Messana.

[dutch81]

I thought there was a script ... at least when I was Rome it gave me a warning and when I besieged them anyway I was suddenly at war with my ally. I have not played Carthage yet but I look at them alot and they seem the wealthiest in my game by say turn 20 and skyrocket from there ... after turn 20 or so they have over 100,000 ... I am in 260 BC or so and now they 750,000 or so ... there is no one even close to the kind of money they are raking in yet they have not expanded gretaly according to the charts at least which is where I am getting all this info as I have no spies in africa.

In my last Rome game I actually bought their city from them on Sicily before taking the rest of the island and that got rid of the message and left me free to take the whole island. A few turn later they still had a big army there however and canceled our alliance ... fearing an attack I attacked them first killing that army and landing a legion on Corsica and Sardinia. So far despite all the money they seem to have I have not encountered a very strong army or large navy yet. I am sailing my legions around in transports only ... granted it is close to my friendly shores.

But my financial situation although not dire is not as wonderfull as theirs appears to be, so I have not been able to build a large navy. But as long as I do these short hops I don't know if I even need one.