The extent of baktrian homelands

[Kongeslask]

Something I found puzzling: The Indus valley is three provinces in the southeast corner of the map. In the two interior ones Baktria can construct type I government, which I take to represent the fact that those land were central to the historical Indo-Greek kingdom that was an offshoot of Baktria. However, the coastal one only allows type II or lesser. What is the reason for this? Was this region historically less firmly controlled by the hellenic political entities than the areas immediately to the north?

[keravnos]

Something I found puzzling: The Indus valley is three provinces in the southeast corner of the map. In the two interior ones Baktria can construct type I government, which I take to represent the fact that those land were central to the historical Indo-Greek kingdom that was an offshoot of Baktria. However, the coastal one only allows type II or lesser. What is the reason for this? Was this region historically less firmly controlled by the hellenic political entities than the areas immediately to the north?

Going by evidence on the ground and whatever historical accounts exist, yes. For example, evidence exists that Between 180 and 170 IndoGreeks reached and conquered Palibothra/Pataliputra (Patna today)* which was the capital of the former Maurya empire. They stayed there for about a decade. During that time the Baktrian Kingdom's king was a brother of Demetrious who conquered India (the one with the elephant head). As Usurper Eukratides rose to the throne in Baktria in about 175 BC, (ending the Euthedemid dynasty), and went for the Indian branch of the Euthedemid dynasty, as if it remained in power, people were certain to doubt his legitimacy. Some years laters the IndoGreeks had to vacate some of their domains, to counter this threat. (what happens later is another story :eyebrows: ) This must have been the case with the coastal domains.** Some Indian sailors attempted to reach Ptolemaic egypt at that time, supposedly under IG influence. One made it, and created the "blueprint" for the voyage between India and Egypt in 4 stages, accounting for the monsoons and dry/wet seasons of India. He was marooned in Ptolemaic Egypt about 150 BC and Ptolemaic authorities imprisoned him. So, despite the occasional traveller, the Periplous trade from India to Egypt didn't really flourish until the time Octavian rose to power, by which time there were no IndoGreek kingdoms. Thus the area was deffinitely IndoGreek, but not as vital to the Kingdom as Oppiane or Taxila.

Indo-Greek Empire (180 BCE-10 CE):

http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/7/2/11/t_IndoGreekMam_4a44655.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img02&img=/7/2/11/f_IndoGreekMam_4a44655.jpg)



* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pataliputra

** IndoGreeks must not have lost coastal India or must have reclaimed it by the time of Menandros the Great, since it was from there tha the 30.000 IndoGreek Bhikkus (Buddhist monks) left on their journey from Alexandria in Arachosia to establish the Great Stuppah of Tapourbane (Sri Lanka) in Anuradhapura around 130 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ruvanvelisaya_Dagoba.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuradhapura
(Also created there an emporion, a tradecity within a city, the easternmost hellenic colony. The traders of that emporion=tradecity reached as far as the Golden Coast that Ptolemy describes -Present day Malaysia, possibly Indonesia and even went so far as Oc eo, a port of a long lost Hindu empire, located in present day Vietnam, where Greek trades were found.)

Some more on GrecoBuddhism that the Baktrians were instrumental in creating...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
its art,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art
and some remains of a Greco-Buddhist stupa in eastern Afghanistan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakhil-i-Ghoundi_stupa

[Kongeslask]

It wasn't necessary to elaborate on Greco-Buddhism, I knew that already, and it has little to do with the question. But since you brought it up, I would like to mention that the highest level of stupa does not have a proper illustration on the building card (it seems to be a vanilla Roman barrack instead). Also, a historical question: I was wondering if there is any direct historical evidence of buddhism having a strong enough presence in Baktria/Sogdiana at the beginning of the campaign to justify such buildings there? I get the impression from the little I have read on the subject that buddhism was mostly restricted to indian territories, in EB only the Indus valley, and that "greco-buddhism" only properly came into being with the establishment of the before-mentioned Indo-Greek kingdom.

In short, what evidence is there of buddhist stupas being established in Baktria and Sogdiana in the 270s BC?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

But since you brought it up, I would like to mention that the highest level of stupa does not have a proper illustration on the building card (it seems to be a vanilla Roman barrack instead).
...TA says...

Highest level stupa just isn't finished yet. Sorry.

[keravnos]

It wasn't necessary to elaborate on Greco-Buddhism, I knew that already, and it has little to do with the question. But since you brought it up, I would like to mention that the highest level of stupa does not have a proper illustration on the building card (it seems to be a vanilla Roman barrack instead). Also, a historical question: I was wondering if there is any direct historical evidence of buddhism having a strong enough presence in Baktria/Sogdiana at the beginning of the campaign to justify such buildings there? I get the impression from the little I have read on the subject that buddhism was mostly restricted to indian territories, in EB only the Indus valley, and that "greco-buddhism" only properly came into being with the establishment of the before-mentioned Indo-Greek kingdom.

In short, what evidence is there of buddhist stupas being established in Baktria and Sogdiana in the 270s BC?

Well, you are right. I needn't elaborate on Greco Buddhism, just that for 30.000 monks to get from Alexandria in Arachosia to Taporbane (Sri Lanka) they would need a port facility, of their own state or face problems (most of the other Indian continent was Hindu and rather hateful of both Greeks and Buddhists). So they needed a port. They had one, and quite big at that. Which proves that there was IG presence there, just merely not enough so to justify it as a "heart of empire" place that "Baktrian Homeland" should be at.

So far as Bouddhism, it is gameplay reasons mostly, If we didn't have Buddha in from the beginning I think we couldn't have it at all, RTW limits, I THINK. and also to signify if anything how close interwoven Baktrian Kingdom and Buddhism became. Now Bouddha's texts say of some Baktrian traders who became pupils and preached Bouddhism in Bactra region in the 300 BCE, while Asoka in the 250's sent Bouddhist preachers there, mostly Baktrian regionals. There WAS Buddhism there as much as the other religions. How much Buddhism ther is is up to you. What YOU choose to build there is your own choice, and accordingly you get certain ancilliaries, benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ButkaraStupa.jpg

in...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butkara_Stupa

[Thaatu]

Damn these faction specific threads. Now I have an itch to play a Baktrian campaign, though I'm in the middle of a Carthaginian one.

[keravnos]

Damn these faction specific threads. Now I have an itch to play a Baktrian campaign, though I'm in the middle of a Carthaginian one.

If I were you, I would continue with the Karthadastim. Baktria isn't going anywhere, don't worry!

[Fondor_Yards]

If I were you, I would continue with the Karthadastim. Baktria isn't going anywhere, don't worry!

Don't listen to him! If you don't hurry, the Saka are going to come and take them away as a campain choice!