sword and buckler vs Dismounted Chivalric Knights

[a_ver_est]

Playing as Spain I don't know whats the point to use sword and buckler units.

They are cheaper than Dismounted Chivalric Knights but they require buldings that usually aren't build in thre province that you capture, so they are dificult to retrain, also their stats seems to be worse. So ... :inquisitive:

Do you think that sword and buckler are better or not ? Do you use it ?

[Omisan]

Playing as Spain I don't know whats the point to use sword and buckler units.

They are cheaper than Dismounted Chivalric Knights but they require buldings that usually aren't build in thre province that you capture, so they are dificult to retrain, also their stats seems to be worse. So ... :inquisitive:

Do you think that sword and buckler are better or not ? Do you use it ?

I use them because they are available in a lot of cities I captured where I can't get dismounted knights or better units. I mix them along with spearman milita.

I don't know how good they really are, but they look great with upgraded armor. :sweatdrop:

[Dutch_guy]

They may be inferior to DCK, but they're a lot more fun to use in my opinion.

That may have something to do with their appearance, like Omisan wisely put forward, there's no denying that.

:balloon2:

[Omisan]

They should move faster than dismounted knights though. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that all footmen and horsemen have the same speed in M2:TW. Shouldn't the armor level affect speed?

There's no way a guy in a full plate armor should run as fast as the one in leather or quilted armor. They should get tired much faster too.

[NefariousWolf]

All footmen and horsemen definately do not have the same speed. I just had a rather humiliating experience with my heavy cavalry being run into the ground by some Byzantine missle cavalry.

Footmen also have variable speeds. Archers, for instance, usually can get enough of a lead on melee footmen to turn around and volley every now and again (if they're careful).

Don't know what the relative speed is of Sword & Buckler men though.

[Omisan]

All footmen and horsemen definately do not have the same speed. I just had a rather humiliating experience with my heavy cavalry being run into the ground by some Byzantine missle cavalry.

Footmen also have variable speeds. Archers, for instance, usually can get enough of a lead on melee footmen to turn around and volley every now and again (if they're careful).

Don't know what the relative speed is of Sword & Buckler men though.

It's barely noticeable then because I have yet to see light infantry catch routing heavy infantry.

[Lorenzo_H]

I love Sword and Bucklet men! One of my fav units they look cool. Not bad stats as well. Their morale is superior to dismounted chivalric knights, as is their upkeep. Worth it for sure.

[NefariousWolf]

I just ran some quick tests so we can put this subject to rest. Both tests were conducted as custom battles on a grassy plain. I lined up all my units on one side of the map and had them run to the other to see who would be fastest.

Test 1: dismounted units
Units: Spanish Sword and Buckler Men, Dismounted Feudal Knights, Militia Spearmen, Peasant Archers
Outcome: Sword and Buckler Men, DFK, and Spearmen all stayed right with eachother. Peasant Archers pulled ahead quite significantly.

Test 2: mounted units
Units: Byzantine Latinkon, Cumon HA, Skythikon, Kataphractoi, Alan Light Cavalry
Outcome: Cumon Horse Archers, Skythikon, and Alan Light Cavalry all took a huge but equal lead beyond Latinkon and Kataphractoi. Latinkon took a significant lead beyond Kataphractoi, who puttered way behind the pack.

So......
Dismounted melee units all have the same speed, but dismounted archers are faster.
Cavalry can have variable speeds, but horse archers and light cavalry are definately among the fastest.

Unless anybody has more extensive testing to show otherwise....

[Lorenzo_H]

Well you could run another test, but this time testing the combat abilities of the Sword and Buckler Men vs Dismounted Chivalric Knights. You don't only have to make them fight each other, you could test their reaction to cavalry, ranged etc. I'll let you do it mate I'm far too busy :laugh4:.

[pevergreen]

There is a very good speed test somewhere in the Citadel....cant remember where.

[econ21]

The FAQ summarises the horse speeds, based on forum tests. Unfortunately, it does not have the link to the original thread.

No one has yet tested or listed infantry speeds.

[HKDDJulker]

i found sword and buckler men to be more effective than DCK in my campaign as spain. they are cheaper, and because of their higher morale, stuck around longer in combat, and got much higher kill:death ratios than i've ever seen a dismounted knight of any sort achieve.
I would recommend them over DK in general.

[gardibolt]

It's barely noticeable then because I have yet to see light infantry catch routing heavy infantry.

It's tough for light cavalry to catch routing heavy infantry a lot of the time. Those boys can move.