Patch 2 release date

[Whacker]

Directly from totalwarblog.com:

Hi guys,

As promised, here is an update regarding Update 2. It is due to go into final testing at SEGA on 16th March. All going well, we then hope to have it ready for release approximately a week later. Because of the new tools included in the update (such as the cinematic editor and battle editor), the update size will be about 650 megs. This also means that we required additional time to set up sufficient mirror sites to cope with demand for the update. The team would like to thank you again for your patience, and I will bring you any further news as I receive it.

Best regards,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

http://www.totalwarblog.com/

Looks like we still have awhile to wait here.

[R'as al Ghul]

650 megs

:stunned: Dude.....

[Odin]

Directly from totalwarblog.com:

Hi guys,

As promised, here is an update regarding Update 2. It is due to go into final testing at SEGA on 16th March. All going well, we then hope to have it ready for release approximately a week later. Because of the new tools included in the update (such as the cinematic editor and battle editor), the update size will be about 650 megs. This also means that we required additional time to set up sufficient mirror sites to cope with demand for the update. The team would like to thank you again for your patience, and I will bring you any further news as I receive it.

Best regards,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

http://www.totalwarblog.com/

Looks like we still have awhile to wait here.

Good news. Yeah that is a while to wait but better to have something a little firm then ambaquity.

[Lusted]

Yeah its a big patch. Most of that is probably due to the new launcher included in it.

[Carl]

Launcher???

Or have you got to keep stum about that?

[Lusted]

It's a new version of the launcher when you put the dvd into the drive. Im not sure how much has been said in public about it though.

[craziii]

meh, they should include a version with the fix only, I don't really care for the editors. the editors should be separate and ppl who wants it can get it.

[ergothead]

I'm pretty disappointed about this timetable that's been given. If previous info has been true, and the patch was in "lockdown" mode last week, so to begin "final testing" on the 16th is either wrong, or the process is pretty messed up. Also, setting up mirror sites can be done by one individual in a matter of hours, so is not a valid reason for further delay.

I appreciate a company that makes sure it gets something right, but there does need to be some sense of urgency get the patch out. Considering that some fundamental, gamebreaking bugs were not addressed in the first patch, this seems a complete 180. Perhaps they need a much larger pool of testers, or maybe they should work an occasional weekend (like the rest of the IT world), to fix a product that has been fundatmentally broken since it's release. I generally don't complain, and this is the first complaint I've made about anything in the TW line, but I'd really like to play the game that I spent $60 on again.

[Lusted]

The editors aren't making the patch big, i know for certain the battle editor is just a few fixes for it as its already in 1.0 and 1.1, 1.2 will probably make it avilable form the options menu without having to edit the .cfg file. If the cinematic editor is like the movie cam from RTw that won't be that big either.

[ergothead]

meh, they should include a version with the fix only, I don't really care for the editors. the editors should be separate and ppl who wants it can get it.

Excellent point!

[Lusted]

If previous info has been true, and the patch was in "lockdown" mode last week, so to begin "final testing" on the 16th is either wrong, or the process is pretty messed up.

That would be my info, and no it was not wrong:


To clarify, the Update is currently being tested internally at CA Oz, and will then go for final testing at SEGA on the 16th.

Just Caliban did not make it clear that it was in testing at CA Oz, instead of the final testing done by SEGA.

[R'as al Ghul]

I would expect the cinematic editor to be quite big, but 650 MB?
I suspect that the update contains plenty of new/fixed animations.

[Philbert]

Didn't they ever hear of peer2peer downloading? That is how World of Warcraft distributes its patches, and they are always massive.
It would save CA a ton in traffic.

[Lusted]

I suspect that the update contains plenty of new/fixed animations.

True it does have the fixed 2 handed axe animations.

[Carl]

I'm pretty disappointed about this timetable that's been given. If previous info has been true, and the patch was in "lockdown" mode last week, so to begin "final testing" on the 16th is either wrong, or the process is pretty messed up.

Not really, if they found a bug with whatever they've done they'd have to fix it and send it off for final testing again. Final Testing mearly means they've got a final big test in which they don't expect any genuine major issues. That dosen't mean none will turn up, they just don't expect any to show up.


I appreciate a company that makes sure it gets something right, but there does need to be some sense of urgency get the patch out. Considering that some fundamental, gamebreaking bugs were not addressed in the first patch, this seems a complete 180. Perhaps they need a much larger pool of testers, or maybe they should work an occasional weekend (like the rest of the IT world), to fix a product that has been fundatmentally broken since it's release. I generally don't complain, and this is the first complaint I've made about anything in the TW line, but I'd really like to play the game that I spent $60 on again.

The problem is that it take a lot of time to fix many of these bugs. In particualr it takes a lot of careful tme and effeort to produce non-lifelike animations. to completly re-do the axe animation with no bugs in a lifelike way would take ages even for somone expirianced with easy to use tools. They also appear to have begun work, (probably before they where aware of the sheild bug), on a number of things like the hotseat campaign, and the AI, fixing that lot would also take time. Add on the sheild bug and it's hardly suprising they over-ran, even if it's easy to fix the amount of balance changes required isn't quick to do. In fact i'd say an extra month isn't too shabby at all when you get down to it.

[ergothead]

That would be my info, and no it was not wrong:



Just Caliban did not make it clear that it was in testing at CA Oz, instead of the final testing done by SEGA.

Then it's a messed up process. Sounds like politics more than any other reason to me. Politics suck to begin with, but they should never get in the way of timely releasing a quality product in a timely fashion. Still, it's not nearly as bad as what EA or Microsoft do to their gaming partners.

[FactionHeir]

650 megs packed that is eh? So how much is that after extraction and installation?!

(I really think those games are getting too large. I only have a 40 gig HDD of which 36 are taken - almost a third of that due to M2TW)

[ergothead]

Not really, if they found a bug with whatever they've done they'd have to fix it and send it off for final testing again. Final Testing mearly means they've got a final big test in which they don't expect any genuine major issues. That dosen't mean none will turn up, they just don't expect any to show up.



The problem is that it take a lot of time to fix many of these bugs. In particualr it takes a lot of careful tme and effeort to produce non-lifelike animations. to completly re-do the axe animation with no bugs in a lifelike way would take ages even for somone expirianced with easy to use tools. They also appear to have begun work, (probably before they where aware of the sheild bug), on a number of things like the hotseat campaign, and the AI, fixing that lot would also take time. Add on the sheild bug and it's hardly suprising they over-ran, even if it's easy to fix the amount of balance changes required isn't quick to do. In fact i'd say an extra month isn't too shabby at all when you get down to it.

I have an excellent grasp of the process of software development, so I really don't need a watered down explanation of it. If there is a major problem with the release, it is taken out of final testing, and must be addressed before final testing begins. Over-running is fine, but's that's not what we have here.

If you read carefully, you'll see that the problem here is TWO versions of final testing; one by the people who make the product, and another politically motivated test by the dominant company. I am fine with time taking longer, but as I said, there needs to be some urgency to get it out, and also a stream-lined process. We can't blame CA for this one, but it is disappointing that Sega would let politics get in the way of a timely release.

[Carl]

Ahh, Lusted wrote his reply after I started mine so i've only just spotteded it. ignore my point. Allthougfh as a clarification for in future, taking it out of final testing because they found somthing was specifficlly what I was suggesting might have happened. i.e. they put it in, found somthing, took it out, where now correcting it, and where then going to put it back in on the 16th.

Obviously as Lustd has shown that veiw was wrong, but I hope that clarifies what i was saying.

What I suspect is going on here is not politics at all but a case of CA lacking the facilities and people to test the game to SEGA's satisfaction, so CA tests for major bugs with their limited staff, then it gets passed to SEGA so they can give it a really thourgh test with a lot more people and find any minor bugs.

[ergothead]

Ahh, Lusted wrote his reply after I started mine so i've only just spotteded it. ignore my point. Allthougfh as a clarification for in future, taking it out of final testing because they found somthing was specifficlly what I was suggesting might have happened. i.e. they put it in, found somthing, took it out, where now correcting it, and where then going to put it back in on the 16th.

Obviously as Lustd has shown that veiw was wrong, but I hope that clarifies what i was saying.

What I suspect is going on here is not politics at all but a case of CA lacking the facilities and people to test the game to SEGA's satisfaction, so CA tests for major bugs with their limited staff, then it gets passed to SEGA so they can give it a really thourgh test with a lot more people and find any minor bugs.

Unless SEGA has a massive group of beta testers, they're not likely to find anything that slipped through the cracks for CA, since their test is estimated to take less than half of the time. If you've worked close to developers, or any IT group that is using partners, you'd know there is an extraordinary amount of politics around everything. Trust me, this one is almost definately politically motivated.

[Lusted]

What I suspect is going on here is not politics at all but a case of CA lacking the facilities and people to test the game to SEGA's satisfaction, so CA tests for major bugs with their limited staff, then it gets passed to SEGA so they can give it a really thourgh test with a lot more people and find any minor bugs.

That is what happens, CA only have a few devs working on the patch so they can't do the amount of testing needed for the patch, so they test for the major bugs, then send it off to SEGA for final testing by SEGAs testers.


Unless SEGA has a massive group of beta testers

A few devs at CA, compared to a good few at SEGA(i saw at least 30 at SEGA HQ Europe in one of the testing rooms when i was there at the Gold Code day, though obviously not all are working on one game)

[ergothead]

I am completely stunned that they don't have free beta-testers from the community. I've actually never heard of a gaming company using just it's developers to test a product. That explains much.

[Lusted]

I've actually never heard of a gaming company using just it's developers to test a product.

They're not, they use the devs to do the initial testing as they make the game, then it goes off to SEGA's testers for full testing.

[Odin]

Unless SEGA has a massive group of beta testers, they're not likely to find anything that slipped through the cracks for CA, since their test is estimated to take less than half of the time. If you've worked close to developers, or any IT group that is using partners, you'd know there is an extraordinary amount of politics around everything. Trust me, this one is almost definately politically motivated.

I have been the accountant for a company that had a large IT development division back in the .com days. We did partner with Cisco to get our product on thier routers.

Long story short, i can confirm this posts theme based on my own expirence.

Sad? yeah.... Reality? Yeah. So if you are familiar with the processes involved then this delayed release schedule shouldnt be any surprise at all, the fact that there is a concrete date suggests to me that CA is letting the gamers know they are done, its on sega now.

[econ21]

If you read carefully, you'll see that the problem here is TWO versions of final testing; one by the people who make the product, and another politically motivated test by the dominant company.

What do you mean by "politically motivated"? I genuinely have not got a clue what motives you are referring to. :shrug:

Anyway, I thought it was standard practice for the publisher to test something submitted by the designer? They are at more of a distance from it, so may be able to see things more objectively. It sounds like they have more resources. And in the end, it's they who have ultimate responsibility for the product, so they need to be satisfied.

I am pretty sure it's what's happened with all other TW games.

[Odin]

What do you mean by "politically motivated"? I genuinely have not got a clue what motives you are referring to. :shrug:

Anyway, I thought it was standard practice for the publisher to test something submitted by the designer? They are at more of a distance from it, so may be able to see things more objectively. It sounds like they have more resources. And in the end, it's they who have ultimate responsibility for the product, so they need to be satisfied.

I am pretty sure it's what's happened with all other TW games.

Yes its pretty much what happens with all games/software with developers and 2nd party publishers. Some call it politics, others call it standard business practice....

[ergothead]

What do you mean by "politically motivated"? I genuinely have not got a clue what motives you are referring to. :shrug:

Anyway, I thought it was standard practice for the publisher to test something submitted by the designer? They are at more of a distance from it, so may be able to see things more objectively. It sounds like they have more resources. And in the end, it's they who have ultimate responsibility for the product, so they need to be satisfied.

I am pretty sure it's what's happened with all other TW games.

Trust me on this one, econ, you are much better off knowing nothing of politics in a work environment if you don't absolutely have to.

[Bongaroo]

::whoops, active thread. this is a response to ergo::

I've heard of and seen plenty. Free beta testers usually cost more to organize than they are worth. Testing for bugs isn't all that exciting and glamorous as I'm sure your aware; I'm sure the cost/benefit and time to finish is better this way.

[FactionHeir]

I doubt they are actually testing for bugs rather than test for whether their fixes work.

Fixes that work will probably make it onto the final list and those that don't will be omitted but the code still implemented as it probably takes too much time to find which bits of code were useless.

They won't spend time finding new bugs as otherwise they might as well patch everything on the ORG buglist and other buglists and this is only one of many patches to come

[Odin]

I've heard of and seen plenty. Free beta testers usually cost more to organize than they are worth. Testing for bugs isn't all that exciting and glamorous as I'm sure your aware; I'm sure the cost/benefit and time to finish is better this way.

As aggrivating as I am about having to wait, i would much rather wait a few weeks more and get a patch that works right and fixes things. I have had to many expirences with games when a company releases a patch and it ends up screwing something else up *cough* paradox *cough*.

[ergothead]

Yes its pretty much what happens with all games/software with developers and 2nd party publishers. Some call it politics, others call it standard business practice....

Actually, it happens in all work environments, some much more than others, and is magnified several times in IT and software development. It's not standard business practice because it often gets in the way of doing things properly. Unless you've been exposed to this, it's really hard to grasp how destructive it is.

[Bongaroo]

LOL, I'm sure "real" world IT is bad but I get to deal with state employee IT almost everyday. Now those guys really live in their own little kingdoms and god forbid you show more technical knowledge.

[ergothead]

::whoops, active thread. this is a response to ergo::

I've heard of and seen plenty. Free beta testers usually cost more to organize than they are worth. Testing for bugs isn't all that exciting and glamorous as I'm sure your aware; I'm sure the cost/benefit and time to finish is better this way.

You don't need a large pool. Honestly, just from these forums alone, they could draw 10 to 15 great testers that would diligently accept the assignment, and require little direction. But you are right, it is neither glamorous or exciting, but with a small solid group, who get thier names in the credits for payment, it would be easy to organise, costless to implement and would put out a better product and in a much quicker time frame. All you need to do is do it right by having a solid, streamlined, repeatable process.

[Odin]

Actually, it happens in all work environments, some much more than others, and is magnified several times in IT and software development. It's not standard business practice because it often gets in the way of doing things properly. Unless you've been exposed to this, it's really hard to grasp how destructive it is.

I have been exposed to it, as a business practice and as politics. like I said in a previous post i worked for a software dev company that was producing software to run on cisco servers. Cisco wouldnt endorse a release of the product until they got to look at it and test it themselves. In my expirence with that company that was standard business practice.

I dont see any evidence here that this isnt the case with sega and CA, perhaps i am being to optomistic, but what would be the political motivation for a delayed time line of release of a patch anyway?

Based on my expirence if patches work well, its a postive PR gain for the developer and the the producers of a game.

[Callahan9119]

i am content to wait if it means this will be a good patch. i'll happily wait an extra few weeks, rather than grumble to myself for the next 5 months about something they missed

i wish they would have waited an extra 6 months to release the game, i continue to lament that my beloved glorious achievments were left out of this version of mtw :thumbsdown:

[Erik Bloodaxe]

You don't need a large pool. Honestly, just from these forums alone, they could draw 10 to 15 great testers that would diligently accept the assignment, and require little direction. But you are right, it is neither glamorous or exciting, but with a small solid group, who get thier names in the credits for payment, it would be easy to organise, costless to implement and would put out a better product and in a much quicker time frame. All you need to do is do it right by having a solid, streamlined, repeatable process.

Sounds like a great idea! but I doubt it will happend:(

[ergothead]

I'd like to clarify something. My original post that said this particular thing was politics is wrong. I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

On a side note, CA isn't buidling an app to run on SEGA's switches. The are a development company that simply isn't big enough to have the funds to put out a game of this magnitute themselves... or at least recover if the game failed. This has to be thought of in a different context... more like the relationship between Independent film companies and the large film companies that sponser a movie release for them.

[Lusted]

I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Yeah they use SEGAs once things have gone through inhouse testing. SEGA own CA remember, they don't just publish the games.

[a_ver_est]

I hope the big size of the patch means a lot of bugs fixed.

Anyway now I am sure which I going to have time enought to finish my current long campaing without rushing. :laugh4:

[ergothead]

They actually own CA? Is it more like a subsidiary, or like a segment of the same company?

[JCoyote]

I would agree, they could probably find a couple dozen dedicated beta testers among the forums.

If I could get credit somehow, or at least use it on a resume, I'd definitely do it. Fill out plenty of checksheets, write up short reports and everything. In some ways I already feel like I've been a beta tester on M2TW anyway.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Sega has a large game testing pool. It makes sense that final broader testing would be done by them. What the poster said they saw in Europe is probably the tip of the iceberg, they probably have a lot in Japan.

BTW, anyone with a slower connection needs to pick up a download manager like Gozilla or Gigaget... it'll save you hours, if not days worth of pain on the upcoming download.

[Lusted]

They actually own CA? Is it more like a subsidiary, or like a segment of the same company?

More like a subsidiary i think given the fact that CA still seems to be a seperate company almost, but owned and have thier games published by SEGA.

[Quickening]

So, the 23rd of March for release. Bit annoying but oh well.

[ergothead]

More like a subsidiary i think given the fact that CA still seems to be a seperate company almost, but owned and have thier games published by SEGA.

I don't know much about SEGA, but I hope the dev's at CA have a great relationship with them. It sounds like it could be a complete nightmare. :whip:

[Lusted]

Well CA seem to like the relationship, or at least from what they've said. SEGA seem to be listening to them a bit more than thier old publishers Activision did.

[Callahan9119]

no way that they would open up that can of worms, unless it was a game that relies on subscriptions per month to pay the bills you wont see it happen from a company like sega, even if Ca was open to it, which i dont think they would be.

i remember playing dark age of camelot for a long time with the token community team leads who made reports and suggestions regarding class and game balance, they were never really listened to

blizzard on the other hand has some good class "overlords" who are owned by the company, yet they are under the iron fist of the angry 7 million strong mob

community members dont have to toe a company line besides maybe a "nda", so i doubt they want people bringing up too many things the company doesnt want to be brought up or dealt with at the time...and i dont think the community while active, is powerful enuff to make sega decide to do any testing outside of its own house

plus they are pretty hush hush about letting things out, any info from the site seems like it is squeezed out of them by force, and only then with great suffering do they let it go

you'll eat your green beans and like it :gathering:

[ergothead]

I appreciate all the info and the clarification. It seems my initial perception of the "lockdown" was flawed because I really didn't understand the relationshiop between CA and SEGA.

I'm not a huge fan of the process and business model SEGA is using to do this, I much prefer to see a team of testers working directly with devs on these types of projects. Just because I don't like the model, doesn't mean it won't work, but SEGA's team that is working with CA better be very good, and work well with them or success won't be likely. This patch is a huge test, and if not successful, I think the particular business model and process would hold much of the blame. If it is a good patch, then my hat is off to the CA dev's, simply because this model really seems to put huge pressure on them.

[ergothead]

you'll eat your green beans and like it :gathering:

Now THAT is funny.

[Yun Dog]

the patch get here when it gets here

[HoreTore]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

My guess at why it's taking longer than promised, is that they have found a new bug. I've been in the same situation myself(online game), so let's not stress them more than necessary.. I'm pretty sure they're stressed enough as it is already...

[Quickening]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

My guess at why it's taking longer than promised, is that they have found a new bug. I've been in the same situation myself(online game), so let's not stress them more than necessary.. I'm pretty sure they're stressed enough as it is already...

I was under the impression that the new launcher is just so that you can actually start the game from it which you can't do now.

[Lusted]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

It's not as far as i aware, they're just building more features into it.

[Aquitaine]

>> I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Oh please. Outside of the MMO market, where patches can just be tested on a 'testing' server, I can't think of many dev hosues that use the public to beta test anything. Paradox, maybe, but even then it's just a small handful to complement the developers.

Using the public for stuff like this means you need an infrastructure to handle massive amounts of input (most of which will be worthless, since the number of people even on this forum who know both how to accurately test and properly report things can probably be counted on two hands) and you risk leaks of beta patches getting to the community, people installing them and hosing their computers, and then blaming CA.

Even if ten different devs were testing the patch at CA, one of the reasons you have a publisher is because they have a QA department (something most developers do not). It's not just a matter of noticing things like animation and shield bugs, which the community is very good at catching -- it's a matter of testing everyone on a zillion combinations of hardware, which means you need a lab and bunch of testers willing to do really boring stuff over and over and over again on different machines.

If the entire basis of your argument is 'their business model is flawed because I won't have the patch when I want it' then you might want to look at your motivation for your criticism. If the patch wasn't tested and broke something new, or else didn't properly fix something and created new problems for modders, you can expect that they'd hear about it on these forums. It's not like they're capriciously holding it back. They get to release x number of patches and it's a considerable undertaking to do so -- they don't want to release it and then a week later go 'oh, wait, actually download this too.'

If relying on the public was such a great business idea, it would be done much more often than it is. The fact is that most (but certainly not all) of the public doesn't know how to properly do QA work even if they are great at catching certain types of problems, and that using the public introduces significant risks as well. They have a process that they think works, or at least it's the best deal they could cut with Sega. Seems to be an improvement over what they had with Activision, anyway.

[Lorenzo_H]

This is good news.

[derfinsterling]

I'm confused on why it is supposed to be bad that Sega tests whatever CA hands over.
Developers aren't good testers. Better to have a dedicated team to test a piece of software than just the guys who wrote it in the first place.
I work at an Austrian IT provider and we have one department that does the development (and basic tests), then, when the devs say they're all done, they hand it over to the test department who test the crap out of the software.

Then, when the testers say they're run and "all"* bugs have been ironed out, we hand the thing over to our customers and *demand* that they test the software again.
That's pretty much for legal purposes. If a piece of software goes live and then crashes, we at least share the liability together with our client because he didn't properly check the application before giving the green light.

And there a still a few bugs that pop up in the real world. Sure, it's frustrating, but that's pretty much the way it is. Sadly, software isn't finished, it's released.







* "all" meaning whatever percentage of bugs fixed was originally set as the goal with the customer.

[econ21]

I was under the impression that the new launcher is just so that you can actually start the game from it which you can't do now.

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was afraid I was going mad. Or that my computer just hated me.

[ergothead]

>> I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Oh please. Outside of the MMO market, where patches can just be tested on a 'testing' server, I can't think of many dev hosues that use the public to beta test anything. Paradox, maybe, but even then it's just a small handful to complement the developers.

Using the public for stuff like this means you need an infrastructure to handle massive amounts of input (most of which will be worthless, since the number of people even on this forum who know both how to accurately test and properly report things can probably be counted on two hands) and you risk leaks of beta patches getting to the community, people installing them and hosing their computers, and then blaming CA.

Even if ten different devs were testing the patch at CA, one of the reasons you have a publisher is because they have a QA department (something most developers do not). It's not just a matter of noticing things like animation and shield bugs, which the community is very good at catching -- it's a matter of testing everyone on a zillion combinations of hardware, which means you need a lab and bunch of testers willing to do really boring stuff over and over and over again on different machines.

If the entire basis of your argument is 'their business model is flawed because I won't have the patch when I want it' then you might want to look at your motivation for your criticism. If the patch wasn't tested and broke something new, or else didn't properly fix something and created new problems for modders, you can expect that they'd hear about it on these forums. It's not like they're capriciously holding it back. They get to release x number of patches and it's a considerable undertaking to do so -- they don't want to release it and then a week later go 'oh, wait, actually download this too.'

If relying on the public was such a great business idea, it would be done much more often than it is. The fact is that most (but certainly not all) of the public doesn't know how to properly do QA work even if they are great at catching certain types of problems, and that using the public introduces significant risks as well. They have a process that they think works, or at least it's the best deal they could cut with Sega. Seems to be an improvement over what they had with Activision, anyway.

Before you make such a lengthy reply, you should read all that was written. I did not realize the exact relationship between CA and SEGA, it's a unique relatioinship between gaming partners that I have not seen before. This means that CA relies on SEGA for the larger scale testing. The process they are using puts a huge burden on the devs, and quite frankly, makes the process of making solid patches very difficult to pull off. If this next patch is a failure, as I said before, blame the process, not the devs.

Also, I was not talking about allowing a crapload of random public peeps for the beta test, but a handful of very good, carefully chose ones. This isn't just in the MMO market either, it is becoming very prevalent in FPS games, and has been prevalent in RTS games for a long time. Heck, even EA has started doing it. Sure, some leaks will happen sometimes. but consider that against a much better product released a lot sooner and it's a no-brainer.

Please, make sure you read all the content before replying, I'm not to fond of repeating myself in the same thread.

[Jambo]

It is news and that is a good thing, but I'm not sure it is good news! ;)

My original, albeit pessimistic, bet on when patch 2 would arrive was guessed at 20th March. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be sadly close to correct.

Nevermind, back into lurking and obscurity for a minimum 3 weeks.

[Bijo]

[...] the update size will be about 650 megs. [...]
:jawdrop: Over 600 M-*******-B?!?! It better be good.

[Doug-Thompson]

After owning this game for weeks and never even noticing the shield bug on my own, I'm not going to be very quick to criticise anybody for missing anything.

[Kraggenmor]

Or that my computer just hated me.

Computers hate us all.

The revolution is near.

:hide:

[Quickening]

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was afraid I was going mad. Or that my computer just hated me.

To be honest I took a leap of faith there and hoped it wasn't just me :laugh4:

[Carl]

Here's a question:

When's the fuller fix list due?

[pike master]

march 16th and patch is out a week after.

man what a turn around after sega got involved.:yes:

[Lusted]

man what a turn around after sega got involved.

Erm, it was already in internal testing BEFORE SEGA got involved.

[Dan.o6]

Nice patch size, shame about the February release. Guess I'll keep playing WoW until it comes out.

[Gingivitis]

Looks like I can continue my current game with a clear conscience knowing I won't be starting another one for a few weeks at least.

[alpaca]

Well the relationship between SEGA and CA is more like a subsidiary if you ask me. SEGA pays for CA employees though, and they pretty much tell them what to do, I guess (for example what to work on, like patches, tools or an expansion).
So, it's only natural they want to test the product before it's released, and professional testers have a lot of merits (such as they know pretty well what to look for and are not too closely-connected to the game, which can often be an advantage).

And I guess it was pushed back because some issues with new features or fixes cropped up.

[econ21]

And I guess it was pushed back because some issues with new features or fixes cropped up.

I suspect the discovery of the shield bug came after the patch was fairly advanced - it did not make the initial fix list, for example - and threw the original timetable into disarray. Rebalancing in the wake of that bug was probably quite an undertaking.

[Aquitaine]

> I did not realize the exact relationship between CA and SEGA, it's a unique relatioinship between gaming partners that I have not seen before. This means that CA relies on SEGA for the larger scale testing. The process they are using puts a huge burden on the devs, and quite frankly, makes the process of making solid patches very difficult to pull off. If this next patch is a failure, as I said before, blame the process, not the devs.

Most development hosues rely on their publisher for large scale testing. Only dev houses big enough to self-publish have their own QA people and labs.

[Foz]

If relying on the public was such a great business idea, it would be done much more often than it is. The fact is that most (but certainly not all) of the public doesn't know how to properly do QA work even if they are great at catching certain types of problems, and that using the public introduces significant risks as well. They have a process that they think works, or at least it's the best deal they could cut with Sega. Seems to be an improvement over what they had with Activision, anyway.
Amen, especially about the public. The fact is the public largely do not make good testers - they give good feedback about what they like or do not like, but in the end they have no idea how to test effectively. They start playing the game, and look for anything to go wrong. That's bad testing. To test effectively, you wrack your brain actively for every single thing that could possibly break the game, and then you proceed to do it. This usually includes vast lists of test cases: things to do, and observe the result. A professor of mine gave a great example of the idea of testing: every time he'd get a program to test that had any data entry box, he'd mess around with it a lot, enter weird symbols, give decimal numbers where integers were expected, etc, but in the end, he'd do something entirely ridiculous to it. He'd paste in a several hundred page document to see what happened, even for a single-digit number field. That test broke more programs for him than anything else he ever did. And that's good testing - cruel, calculated, merciless attempts to break that piece of software in half.

The other thing is that a lot of good testing requires programming background. There's an awful lot of stuff that you should test, but will miss if you don't totally understand how software is written and how it functions on a computer. Having the general public test things is like asking someone who knows nothing about car engines to see if the new engine you just assembled is working right. He can tell you if it starts up or not, and if it makes the car move. But if you've got a bad spark plug, or left some of the oil out, or any number of less obvious things, he'll never know, because he doesn't know exactly how the engine fits together or works in the first place. Anyone can see the big picture, but it takes a specialist to know everything to check and how to best go about doing so.

Coincidentally that's probably why you rarely see big public involvement in tests: people that are actually qualified to do real testing typically get paid to do so, because their work is more useful than what 1,000 random joes could do in the same amount of testing time each.


Developers aren't good testers.
It's not even that, so much as they aren't good testers of what they have developed. It's very difficult to spot your own errors sometimes - often they came up because of some faulty logic or assumptions you have, in which case looking at it further typically will not reveal anything to you - you'll keep thinking exactly how you did when you wrote it, never seeing the problem. For some there is also a certain amount of pride at code they've written, which further hinders their ability to test it - they have trouble finding fault with their own work, and thus are less motivated to attack it as good testing requires. Many developers would be more than adequate testers of other people's software, but it would probably be a bad business model to make different teams test each other's stuff - it distracts from their own projects too much. Far easier and likely more efficient just to have dedicated testers, which is probably why it turns out that way always.

[pat the magnificent]

great, now I'll probably go find a new game to play and completely loss interest in M2TW for a few months.

I was expecting it to be released in like... a couple days. This patch better be absolutely f**king amazing. Otherwise... well I just can't say... I just can't say.

If there's one damned bug, I'm not going to buy any new CA games... I'm just going to steal them off the internet.



march 23rd... just... wow...

[Barry Fitzgerald]

So they only just discovered the shield bug? Cmon give me a break! We were talking about that a week after the game hit the shelves!

Still life goes on.......;-)

[adembroski]

Didn't they ever hear of peer2peer downloading? That is how World of Warcraft distributes its patches, and they are always massive.
It would save CA a ton in traffic.

And it's the most unreliable, slow, irritating system I've ever come across, please don't put ideas in their heads.

[stealingjoy]

If there's one damned bug, I'm not going to buy any new CA games... I'm just going to steal them off the internet[/I]

Wow, what a noble stand. Why don't you take a stand by actually not playing the game at all if you're so pissed?

[Whacker]

Amen, especially about the public. The fact is the public largely do not make good testers - they give good feedback about what they like or do not like, but in the end they have no idea how to test effectively.
If you're talking about app testing as a job in a methodical manner, then yes I'd absolutely agree the public at large is ill-suited for this. If you mean in general for spotting errors or bugs, the userbase is arguably the best group for spotting any bugs big or small.


They start playing the game, and look for anything to go wrong. That's bad testing. To test effectively, you wrack your brain actively for every single thing that could possibly break the game, and then you proceed to do it. This usually includes vast lists of test cases: things to do, and observe the result. A professor of mine gave a great example of the idea of testing: every time he'd get a program to test that had any data entry box, he'd mess around with it a lot, enter weird symbols, give decimal numbers where integers were expected, etc, but in the end, he'd do something entirely ridiculous to it. He'd paste in a several hundred page document to see what happened, even for a single-digit number field. That test broke more programs for him than anything else he ever did. And that's good testing - cruel, calculated, merciless attempts to break that piece of software in half.
Very true, any dev test group worth half a git always uses testcases, AND they work very closely in conjunction with the devs to create these. That's not to say that there isn't random playtesting just looking for things, but by and large you run testcases based off of coded routines to verify correct functionality. Further, Puzz had a good point in a post he made awhile back. Some of the bugs (such as the shield bug) that have cropped up most likely would have been caught by the devs themselves if they would have done something very close to what you stated above, which is run their own debugging tests looking for something to throw an error. Good testing is done both by the devs and verified by the app testing team.


The other thing is that a lot of good testing requires programming background. There's an awful lot of stuff that you should test, but will miss if you don't totally understand how software is written and how it functions on a computer. Having the general public test things is like asking someone who knows nothing about car engines to see if the new engine you just assembled is working right. He can tell you if it starts up or not, and if it makes the car move. But if you've got a bad spark plug, or left some of the oil out, or any number of less obvious things, he'll never know, because he doesn't know exactly how the engine fits together or works in the first place. Anyone can see the big picture, but it takes a specialist to know everything to check and how to best go about doing so.
This is anecdotal, but I'll put it here anyway. I have two good friends who work as beta testers for major PC game publishers. Both know how to code well and are good at what they do. Oddly enough, when I asked them about this in the past, both in formed me that some of the best testers they knew actually had very little techincal background. Kinda funny how you'd expect the opposite no? The best explanation they could come up with was that it had to do with... ego, for lack of a better term. For example, someone who's running tests and knows how to code may eventually start to think they know how the code looks that's driving the particular part of the app they're testing. In other words, you start to make assumptions, and you start to gloss over things that a non-technical person normally wouldn't, and you unconciously eliminate scenarios that you otherwise wouldn't have. Of course this isn't to say that the technical testers aren't damn good, it's just that more often than naught the really obscure bugs are caught by the far less techincally inclinded folks.


Coincidentally that's probably why you rarely see big public involvement in tests: people that are actually qualified to do real testing typically get paid to do so, because their work is more useful than what 1,000 random joes could do in the same amount of testing time each.
Apparently the main qualifications that it takes to be a tester for these publishers is to be very analytical and methodical, and be able to clearly articulate and document the bugs and the exact steps taken to reproduce them. Technical background is a plus but not required.


It's not even that, so much as they aren't good testers of what they have developed. It's very difficult to spot your own errors sometimes - often they came up because of some faulty logic or assumptions you have, in which case looking at it further typically will not reveal anything to you - you'll keep thinking exactly how you did when you wrote it, never seeing the problem. For some there is also a certain amount of pride at code they've written, which further hinders their ability to test it - they have trouble finding fault with their own work, and thus are less motivated to attack it as good testing requires. Many developers would be more than adequate testers of other people's software, but it would probably be a bad business model to make different teams test each other's stuff - it distracts from their own projects too much. Far easier and likely more efficient just to have dedicated testers, which is probably why it turns out that way always.
Hoo boy, I've been very guilty of that in the past when I was doing dev work. :grin: You do get "attached" to your code and your app, and familiarity can be very dangerous as you go through the dev cycle.

[Whacker]

Wow, what a noble stand. Why don't you take a stand by actually not playing the game at all if you're so pissed?

While his statement could have been worded better and less caustic, this is also uncalled for. There are a good number of gamers who are ... less than pleased with the current state of the game.

[pat the magnificent]

Wow, what a noble stand. Why don't you take a stand by actually not playing the game at all if you're so pissed?
like whacker said, the point i'm trying to make it is this. PC gamers have a choice. Pay for games and support the companies they love, or don't.

I've long since stopped caring about the ethical issues of stealing copyrighted material on the internet. For me, I buy games that are worth supporting. I thought M2 was such a game, but I only have so much patience. It's about 5 months since I got the game and it STILL doesn't work right. Right now I'm thinking, "Man... did I even pay for this?"

And if this ginormous and horribly delayed patch doesn't it all better, then CA will have found it's way on to my s**t list.

I don't care if offend anyone's gentle sensibilities, I'm just telling you how I feel and how it is. Is it unethical? Probably, but I just don't care anymore.

[stealingjoy]

It's funny, usually people steal stuff because they want it. You make it sound like the game is crap but you have no problem playing it, heh.

And if this game is really in such a terrible state, why play it all? There's so many games out there, can you not find one that is worth playing and paying for?

I'm willing to bet that this magical standard of quality keeps getting raised higher and higher until you pay for no games but still continue playing them... it's a nice way of tricking yourself into thinking not buying is making some kind of point.

[pike master]

sometimes people have to just suck up their pride and admit they were wrong in how they were treating the community and how they bungled things up.

i ve been wrong before in my life. its embarrasing but youll get over it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

It's funny, usually people steal stuff because they want it. You make it sound like the game is crap but you have no problem playing it, heh.

And if this game is really in such a terrible state, why play it all? There's so many games out there, can you not find one that is worth playing and paying for?

I'm willing to bet that this magical standard of quality keeps getting raised higher and higher until you pay for no games but still continue playing them... it's a nice way of tricking yourself into thinking not buying is making some kind of point.

Umm, I think you missed the point on all accounts.

Firstly many of us have been anticipating MTW2 for over 2 years and own no other games other than total war games. I certainly did not expect anything of this standard. In its current state the enjoyment is often severley interrupted, but we all hope that the patch will correct this.

There is no magical standard of quality. There is no grey area. It works as it should or it doesn't. Yes there are many games out there and my guess is you own quite a few, and with bugs equal or worse than MTW2 I bet. Buying a computer game is not like buying an electrical appliance. No department store would sell you kettle now for example and in 6 months time expect you to call in and pick up the electrical cable and element for it. But this is exactly what comp games developers expect you to do with their products. Theres absolutely nothing to stop them and repetitively buying sub standard or faulty games only encourages them to release more.

His point is that if they can operate at such a shameful level then why shouldn't he.

[stealingjoy]

And my point is, why play it at all if it's so bad?

Listen, I can completely understand getting a pirated version first and testing it out, then deciding whether you want to buy it or not. That just makes sense since you can't return opened software usually. However, if you're actually going to PLAY it but not pay for it, then you're just a hypocrite, because it's obviously good enough to spend your time playing.

If it's good enough to play then it's good enough to pay.

[sapi]

And the talk of piracy stops now :focus:

I don't care what your reasons are - there is no justification for stealing someone else's property, and doing so will not be discussed here.

[pat the magnificent]

And the talk of piracy stops now :focus:

I don't care what your reasons are - there is no justification for stealing someone else's property, and doing so will not be discussed here.
i didn't advocate it. i'm simply stating thats its a fact they have to deal with.

not talking about piracy doesn't make it not happen. and trying to silence conversion topics you don't approve of make you kind of an asshole.

you want to ban me, go ahead. i don't want to have anything to do with a community that won't let me speak freely.

[sapi]

It's not about denial or about free speech but about morals and the law. Firstly, no matter what your opinions are, it's just wrong to take someone's work without paying for it. Secondly, these discussions inevitably lead to links being posted, which opens up a whole new kettle of fish.

This is illegal for a reason, and you certainly can't go against the law on these forums.

[econ21]

So they only just discovered the shield bug? Cmon give me a break! We were talking about that a week after the game hit the shelves!

The game came out on 10th November. AFAIK, the shield bug was only hypothesised two months later: Foz started a thread on it on 10th January; CA staff first said they would look into it on 15th January. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

[econ21]

:hijacked: I'm closing this thread as it spiralling off topic into discussion of piracy, which is against forum rules.