V1.21 Rebuild-ProblemFixer BETA testing thread [Archive] - Page 2

vonsch

03-17-2007, 19:56

Well WAS planning on turning Antioch into a second Jerusalem, (the AI will get it eventually, don't worry, it just takes a couple of Jihads to do it), and upgrading Acre to a Citadel out the gate. that will REALLY slow a Human down without hitting the AI too hard as Fortress/Citadels include Ballista Towers out the gate, plus Citadel walls are twice as tough as before, (although all other walls have dropped 30-50% in terms of durability since last time). So a Player would have a proverbial Nightmare getting that even WITH a weak Garrison.

Bad idea. Gives the player a fast track to top units after one jihad. I'd beeline. Be smart for Catholic players to ask for a crusade on it to, and flat move to Holy Land. I think it should be a castle. Or a large town.

Beef up Antioch, but not with extreme experience units. It's not the first crusade target programmed into the script.

As far as the bandits go, be conservative ~;). If they are 50 now, try 60 next time. Not 90! They are better than the default settinig, which is high, but I think still a bit low. And use a separate number for pirates (don't lockstep the two). I think it can go up more than bandits. Sea voyages need more risk since they benfit the player more. AI is pretty good at pirate patrol too, from what I've seen.

Ship upkeep still has issues. 50 for dhow is fine, but 10 for war galley is odd... is that a typo for 100? Heh, the baghlah has the wrong unit graphic. Is that a CA bug? It's a peasant instead of a ship. ~;)

Moors are interesting in that their starting units are pretty trashy. But they get nicer ones later. But the starting ones are also pretty cheap, so they can just spam them and overwhelm with numbers. I take out Portugal first turn (which is why I say Lisbon is a deathtrap!) Then Spain before turn 12 or so. I just ignore the rebels until those miserable infidels (even if they are People of the Book) are made dhimmi. I do try to grab the Pyrannees regions fast to keep the Frogs (unclean beasts!) out. Then I backfill. Sicily has been the only issue since they go for Tunis (in prior versions). Sometimes they will turn up (or PS or Milan will) at Valencia, but they rarely are much threat to take THAT one.

I've never yet played far enough to get to Urban Militia or Camel Gunners though. The fun stuff! And I agree that they aren't poor. Cordoba is rich on its own. Granada isn't. But Marrakesh and Algiers are both pretty good. And Toledo and Lisbon are quite nice added into that mix. Never gotten the sub-Sahara online so haven't seen how well they do (aside from the merchant income). Suspect they are good due to the trade goods, but more so later when the Atlantic is open for trade routes.

Don't cut castle income. You'll hurt the AI more. Players are better at swapping cities for castles and vice versa. I rarely have more than 1 castle per 6 settlements. Only VERY early. At the moment I have one castle and 11 cities. But some of those cities are being forced grown to citidel size. ~;) In fact, I'm tempted to play with making Nottingham a city with England. It's pretty rich.

Also, the castles are only really good trade if they are on a coast and can build the higher ports. They lose out on the doubling that the market line (and merchant guilds) give cities. If you think a castle pays in trade, try replacing it with a huge city and the full complement of trade support.

And another point on that issue, that market line (and the guilds) not only boost the city they are in, but all the markets connecting to them. So castles, which can't get those, are pulling down overall trade too. The penalty is much higher than immediately obvious.

Now, what I don't understand is why castles get the two high-end shipyards. Those should be in cities. That would also curb castle trade a bit. And boost cities even more. Shipyards have always been city things, not castle. They need large labor forces, which castles lack. I suspect it was to spread around the buildings. Moving them to the cities would also put them with the admiralties, wouldn't it? Makes sense to me.

Carl

03-17-2007, 20:23

I'll answer you in a second Vonsch. Give me a moment.

HolyCow for some reason sent his thoughts via PM so I'll quote them here:

I played Byz and Eng last night till ~turn 15.

1. no starting cash really slowed beginning expansion. If people notice though, this should be OK, since most factions are surrounded by rebels so, it's a small gamble to take almost all units to assault one rebel settlement on turn 1 or 2.

1.a the rebels have a lot more units, and diff units from vanilla. this is interesting and good but the units weren't hard to defeat - I think the general unit is a lot stronger than before. My general was the only cavalry unit I had and it proved critical to victory. both Eng/Byz general killed ~200-285 and earned 3 silver chevrons on turn 1.

1.b love the way archers fire, especially treb archers. it seems arrows fly faster and flatter trajectory. it feels more accurate? if that can be said. honestly who among us can say what a mass of arrows flying at you looks like? I wasn't able to eyeball the arrows, but it looks like no more high angled shots.

1.c byz spears held their own against militia spear and routed their opponents losing 5-10 men each. still can't stand spear animation where it looks like spearman is trying to punch opponent w/ back end of spear, is there a way to change that?

1.d peasants are much weaker v/ vanilla and routed each/every time.

2. enemy merchants are easier to acquire

3. pirate ships easier to sink

4. merchants fly across map, whereas generals and units can't make it across one province/turn.

5. every province has roads, not sure if good/bad at this point.

6. spy/merch/diplomat skill points harder to earn

7. easer to acquire general ancillaries, more diverse ancillaries, and saw a few unique? named? ancillaries.

that's all I have at this point. will try France/HRE later.

is there a way to adapt/integrate this into big map or what do I need to change? thanks much.

I'll number my replies according to the way you've numbered yours.

1a. I think thats down to the fact that Generals bodyguard are as good as Knightly Orders in melee plus they haven't taken a Morale hit so they are significantly less effected by the fact that Spear now frighten mounted units. Most mounted units are only 2-4 morale vs. spears early on so they break pretty easy. Gen Bodyguard are at 9. I guess in hindsight I should have dropped them from 11 to 8 like I did every other high morale unit.

1b. As far as I know i haven't touched archers, but I'll check to be sure.

1c. Can't do anything about the animation, but thanks for the info. Considering how well they do, do you think Byzantine Spears are available too early?

1d. Yep, they have lowered Morale and the Shield Bug has been fixed and most peasants have had a stats hit on top.

2. They shouldn't be and aren't for me. But that may just be the faction your playing.

3. :yes: I weakened them slightly as they where very OTT.

4. Intentional change, cuts the micromanagement on agents. generals are kept slow because the player could exploit the movement in ways the AI would not and can't be re-programed to do.

5. Thats to help speed the AI up, the player tends to build them pretty quick anyway so it barely effects him but it really slows the A down, especially in reb territory.

6. & 7. The traits and Ancillaries where modified by Simone else before I added my ow tweaks so the harder to get skill points are someone else's doing, (hadn't noticed myself TBH). The historical figures are my doing, they existed before but could only be got inside VERY narrow time periods. I'd removed that limitation so you can get them any time, this does get strange with William Wallace being able to turn up turn 3 if the situation is right, but it's better than before where many where very hard to get and had very minimal effects.

I'm afraid theirs no easy way to integrate them as things like starting buildings, Who owns what starting Province, and Starting Reb Garrisons are dealt with in the same files you'd have to modify to add extra regions. You could just install the Big Map mod to the ProblemFixer Folder but it would undo several changes.

Bad idea. Gives the player a fast track to top units after one jihad. I'd beeline. Be smart for Catholic players to ask for a crusade on it to, and flat move to Holy Land. I think it should be a castle. Or a large town.

Good point, hadn't thought of that.

Beef up Antioch, but not with extreme experience units. It's not the first crusade target programmed into the script.

Good idea, I'll do something similar to Jerusalem, but only 3 Silver chevrons and no Armour/weapons. Thats be OK you think?

As far as the bandits go, be conservative . If they are 50 now, try 60 next time. Not 90!

I know better than to do that. i once set it to 100% by accident and couldn't move for super sized reb stacks, and 2-3 per province too:faint:

They are better than the default setting, which is high, but I think still a bit low. And use a separate number for pirates (don't lockstep the two). I think it can go up more than bandits. Sea voyages need more risk since they benefit the player more. AI is pretty good at pirate patrol too, from what I've seen.

Ship upkeep still has issues. 50 for dhow is fine, but 10 for war galley is odd... is that a typo for 100?

:yes:, a typo.

Heh, the baghlah has the wrong unit graphic. Is that a CA bug? It's a peasant instead of a ship.

I think i introduced that, not sure how though...

vonsch

03-17-2007, 21:08

Heh, ok, let me be clear. I think Jerusalem should be tougher than Antioch. Jerusalem is a bit extreme right now. Maybe 6 experience (instead of 9) and no weapons/armor.

Antioch I think would be fine with just the full complement of units, no upgrades. I think the player (AI doesn't seem to go after it aggressively anyway early) should be forced to work a bit harder for Antioch than any of the other HL cities except Jerusalem. But it's not the first crusade target, so don't make it nuts. It's not trivial now, but it's a lot more valuable (and larger) than the others. It is a full city when taken early even, and it has great trade goods, and it's very strategic and defensible. That river loop is nice, 2 bridges, plus you can strategically drop a fort or two and encourage them to use those bridges. One south at the notch in coast, other just south of the river blocking the road east and the north-south valley. If you hold Antioch, you have 5 cities in two-move range.

In comparison, Adana and Aleppo are weenies in population and economy. Acre is decent, but far south to be strategic. Damascus is decent too, and Edessa, but neither gets a port, and both, like Acre, are on the spokes, not the hub of the strategic wheel. Antioch is more important to conquering and holding the HL than Jerusalem. The latter is just THE major target due to crusades and victory conditions. Jerusalem is the hub to 3 cities, 2 less than Antioch.

Aleppo is also strategic in that sense, though not all that valuable as an economic seed. No port, less trade. But a nice hub too. Not as easily defended.

But it won't matter that much to the smart player. Target Antioch with a decent jihad or crusade (2+ stacks) then use the significant leftovers on the rest.

Speaking of which, it's turn 29 and my jihad button lit up. And I can afford a few more stacks to throw at Jerusalem. But I should bring in the God Squad. Lots of heretics there. But a hard place to govern. I'll wait and see if that crusade comes too.

Carl

03-17-2007, 21:20

Moors are interesting in that their starting units are pretty trashy. But they get nicer ones later. But the starting ones are also pretty cheap, so they can just spam them and overwhelm with numbers. I take out Portugal first turn (which is why I say Lisbon is a deathtrap!) Then Spain before turn 12 or so. I just ignore the rebels until those miserable infidels (even if they are People of the Book) are made dhimmi. I do try to grab the Pyrannees regions fast to keep the Frogs (unclean beasts!) out. Then I backfill. Sicily has been the only issue since they go for Tunis (in prior versions). Sometimes they will turn up (or PS or Milan will) at Valencia, but they rarely are much threat to take THAT one.

I've never yet played far enough to get to Urban Militia or Camel Gunners though. The fun stuff! And I agree that they aren't poor. Cordoba is rich on its own. Granada isn't. But Marrakesh and Algiers are both pretty good. And Toledo and Lisbon are quite nice added into that mix. Never gotten the sub-Sahara online so haven't seen how well they do (aside from the merchant income). Suspect they are good due to the trade goods, but more so later when the Atlantic is open for trade routes.

Well their tech trees taken a major re-arrange too, (just like everyone else's), so I'd like the opinion of someones who's previously played them when you've got time.

Don't cut castle income. You'll hurt the AI more. Players are better at swapping cities for castles and vice versa. I rarely have more than 1 castle per 6 settlements. Only VERY early. At the moment I have one castle and 11 cities. But some of those cities are being forced grown to citadel size. In fact, I'm tempted to play with making Nottingham a city with England. It's pretty rich.

Also, the castles are only really good trade if they are on a coast and can build the higher ports. They lose out on the doubling that the market line (and merchant guilds) give cities. If you think a castle pays in trade, try replacing it with a huge city and the full complement of trade support.

I didn't mean to imply that castles are as good as cities, just they bring in too much IMHO as when both the Moorish starting castle got their ports up the same turn my income jumped almost 3K. Thats too much. What I was thinking was to cut the trade bonuses of Ports for castles, and replace the non-working trade fleet bonus on wharfs with extra trade bonuses.

It would still probably help the human too much more than the AI though~:(.

And another point on that issue, that market line (and the guilds) not only boost the city they are in, but all the markets connecting to them. So castles, which can't get those, are pulling down overall trade too. The penalty is much higher than immediately obvious.

I didn't know that.

Now, what I don't understand is why castles get the two high-end shipyards. Those should be in cities. That would also curb castle trade a bit. And boost cities even more. Shipyards have always been city things, not castle. They need large labor forces, which castles lack. I suspect it was to spread around the buildings. Moving them to the cities would also put them with the admiralties, wouldn't it? Makes sense to me.

Cities get them too, i think it's just because they want navies t be producible anywhere.

Random Idea:

I consider conversion ab bit easy and too penalty free, whilst you may lose investment on any building, you gain so much income it barely matters plus the income from here on in is more important, (as what you've lost is already gone and your strategy is actually revolving around the lower income and Treasury total that this losses have caused).

Why not increase the conversion time and cost. currently a conversion from castle to city can be mad back in 2 turn. If it was 20 turns to make it back and much longer doing the conversion it would be a much less attractive option, and much more difficult to do early on, it would also slow the player some more without ever effecting the AI.

vonsch

03-17-2007, 21:46

Those Moorish African ports have pretty good resources, I think. Most ports aren't that great.

Heh, I was looking at the building browser and it doesn't show the top end shipyards for cities, just castles. Don't have a city quite there to test with, though Antioch getting close.

With regards to long delays to convert:

It's EASY to convert a castle into a city in reality. It's the opposite that's hard. You just let the castle grow outside its walls, and the market forces are doing that anyway unless they are actively counteracted by government decree and enforcement. Often shanty cities were put to the torch to clean them out as they posed a risk to the castle if they were near the walls. (sort of like cleaning up slums to protect property values today!)

So making that conversion hard/very long would bother me.

What I do with flip-flopping cities I have not seen about as a regular economic tactic. I mean flipping a castle to a city to grow it, then back to make it a big production center. For one thing, it's of use only in special circumstances (like the Holy Land buildup against hordes). Generally the front is moving fast enough that you produce in captured castles along the way and convert them to cities as your front gets too far ahead and you capture new castles.

And its risky in that I cut my production rate way back in the process. I run skinny on castles early. If I'm attacked and need more castle units now, I'd have to try to grab one because I couldn't get one up and running fast enough. Or delay a lot with horse archers and militia units from cities.

Castles are better defensively, especially with your towers. So converting to cities is risky if they are in key spots where they can be attacked.

I don't like gimping a player choice by brute force because the AI is dumb.

That said, a modest increase would be another thing. As usual you are WAY out there. Maybe double the turns to convert. The player is still going to do it. The player loses nothing by converting a castle he doesn't want as a castle. No income is lost from the castle. Units can still be produced. Just can't build any other buildings, but wouldn't want to anyway as they end up lost (aside from the basic tier 1 set). And the reward in increased income is large.

The downside is that cities are not as easy to defend, but that matters only to the most defensive players. Most AI attacks come at the "line" regions anyway. And those will have armies supporting them.

But I don't think it's a major balance issue. It's actually slowing ME down in the early part of the game. I could be producing units faster. I am sacrificing that rate now for more stability later when I will need it.

You could make cities LESS defensible, but we're right back at the balance thing. Then the player takes AI cities easier and cripples their economies.

Oh, and another downside to cities... cities are FAR more prone to revolt with a little help from our "friends."

Carl

03-17-2007, 23:43

Those Moorish African ports have pretty good resources, I think. Most ports aren't that great.

The problem was Valencia, Granada and the other castle where all only about 500 florins behind Corbora. Which was actually about 300 florins behind Marrakesh.

Heh, I was looking at the building browser and it doesn't show the top end shipyards for cities, just castles. Don't have a city quite there to test with, though Antioch getting close.

You shouldn't be able to see 3rd level ones in either cities or castles till gunpowder is discovered, and the 4th till the world is round event has come and gone.

What I do with flip-flopping cities I have not seen about as a regular economic tactic. I mean flipping a castle to a city to grow it, then back to make it a big production center. For one thing, it's of use only in special circumstances (like the Holy Land buildup against hordes). Generally the front is moving fast enough that you produce in captured castles along the way and convert them to cities as your front gets too far ahead and you capture new castles.

And its risky in that I cut my production rate way back in the process. I run skinny on castles early. If I'm attacked and need more castle units now, I'd have to try to grab one because I couldn't get one up and running fast enough. Or delay a lot with horse archers and militia units from cities.

Castles are better defensively, especially with your towers. So converting to cities is risky if they are in key spots where they can be attacked.

I don't like gimping a player choice by brute force because the AI is dumb.

The strategy you describe doesn't bother me, it's risky as you point out. What i'm complaining about is the strategy, (especially early on as it's a good way round the zero starting money), of switching front-line towns to castles and interior castles to towns/cities.

Their are 3 reasons it bothers me i it's current state:

1. it's an automatic thing, theirs no real penalty to doing so so the player always will. This typically allows his economy to outstrip the AI's and makes his production much closer to the front making replacments easier to get.

2. I've been led to believe that CA does it's balancing by simply letting the AI control all factions and watching the results. That means the income from many castle regions has been balanced on the idea that they will NOT become cities, that means by switching certain castles to cities you are gaining income that CA never expected you to have from those regions.

3. They have included a cost and time to convert cities/castles to castles/cities. If it wasn't intended to be penalty they'd have made it free and instant in effect (i.e. no need to end turn).

Point 2 bothers me the least, although if you follow that line of reasoning to it's conclusion you could argue that switching should be outright removed as CA never balanced the game around it's effects. Personally I like the switching mechanic and think it should stay. It's a nice strategic option.

Point 1 bothers me a bit as it really helps some factions out of the zero starting money as they can convert badly placed initial castles to towns. Italians can get away with just cities for the first half of the game nearly.

Point 3 is the big one for me however, right now the supposed "penalty" isn't their. as a result it's not a strategic option at all, it's just a pure player advantage. if converting an interior castle actually required serious thought, (i.e. is the extra income compared to the monetary cost of doing so really worth it), or vice versa with border towns to castles, (is it better to switch, or should I leave it as is as i'm going to expand soon and will then want to switch it back).

Right now it's a total no brainier to switch an interior castle to a city, and nearly always a no brainier to switch a frontier city to a castle if the city isn't too big to do so.

By making it more expensive to do I make sure people can't get round low starting money with it, (not enough money to afford to do it early on), and also make sure people actually consider weather a province should be a city or castle more carefully, not switching just because the merits of defense vs. income favor one or the other. It become hopefully a more considered decision.

Ohh, and watch out for the AI once it starts invading you, the money script means it really hits hard, you'll need those buffed wall defenses I can tell you.

vonsch

03-18-2007, 00:05

Well, there's no answer to dumb AI. Forcing players to play dumb isn't fun for the players. CA needs to work on the core AI and expose more for modders. Economic decisions, like whether to convert, just aren't processed well, if at all. Ditto for deep raids, amphibious invasions, and bypassing strongpoints. As long as the AI's view of strategy is brute force, we'll have these problems with players easily outperforming it.

To up difficulty, "give it more stuff." I hate that mentality.

But I'm less and less sure that the economy is really a castle versus city thing as much as it's touted. As you point out, castles do fairly well (though not explosively well) with trade. And you can dump in the farms without worrying about revolts. The large problem is poor management.

If castles really defend better, you need less field army, no? especially with larger free garrisons. So, if you prefer, make it more expensive in time and florins to convert. Some still will, others will adapt in other ways.

I think the scaled tax penalty is a missing brake at the moment. Put that back and take another look at growth. Or just uptweak conversion costs by a small factor in both cost and time (double both). Then see how it affects the growth of cities and castles, it will show in player expansion performance over 50 turns.

If cities (and castles) are growing slower, taxes and trade will be less. Tech will be lower.

AD reduces this a LOT. But it adds a lot more regions, so the time scale fits the geographic scale better. All build times are increase, as are costs. And growth rates are lower. Deciding which building to build next is not a trivial process. After 30 turns, you may have built 3 buildings in one city. But it feels like a whole new strategic game. (if the turn updates didn't take as long as waiting for a seige to time out...)

Anyway, decided to postpone tackling Jerusalem to hit Rhodes, which is still rebel. Almost there and see Venice had the same idea. It brought 2 units though. I brought a whole stack. I'll wait for it to fail. Unless I cross the Black Sea, or head north from Tbilisi, I'm left with Jerusalem, and islands or coastal regions. Maybe I should go take Valencia. ~;)

I refuse to break an alliance though. So will be waiting on Byz or Egypt... or the horde.

holycow

03-18-2007, 02:07

hey carl, sorry for the pm, but just looking at all these posts makes my head swim. i don't know how you have time to read all this and still mod & play.

anyways,

1. re generals, I didn't charge spears head on. i let the rebels comitt to my spearwall - ran general to enemy rear and demolished crossbow & archers - then as missile units routed, flanked spear units w/general - then chased routed units to town center. but it was a surprise to get 3 Ag chevrons and did get brave lvl 1 trait.

2. re byz spears, it might possibly be too early, but still unsure as zero starting $$. By turn 10 i was able to build and recruit as normal. Before that, didn't build anything but $$ generating building and didn't recruit a single unit. and only took one settlement by that time. w/out starting $$, definitely made me turtle until i could recruit units reliably. so if anyone else turtles, they would have to depend on byz spears. I'll have to play a little more and see how or if overpowering byz spears might be.

3. re merchants, almost immediately, Venetian, Hungarian, HRE, Milan, merchants showed up outside Constantinople, and later on Egpytian. most of these were lvls 3-4 and my merchant was lvl 3. so acquired them w/ anywhere from 13-27%, and the byz merch acquired 5 of those merchants before it backfired. my merch did not advance lvls through those 5 acquisitions.

have you tried playing on different computers? i ask cause i play on both desktop and a laptop depending on who is the house is doing what and i get a different experiences from each. and i noticed this from other games as well, not just tw series. but logically this shouldn't happen, right?

Carl

03-18-2007, 02:33

hey Carl, sorry for the pm, but just looking at all these posts makes my head swim. i don't know how you have time to read all this and still mod & play.

I don't play much LOL. Do more testing, reading, and replying than playing TBH. Just been playing some moor Moors though:smash:.

1. re generals, I didn't charge spears head on. i let the rebels comitt to my spearwall - ran general to enemy rear and demolished crossbow & archers - then as missile units routed, flanked spear units w/general - then chased routed units to town center. but it was a surprise to get 3 Ag chevrons and did get brave lvl 1 trait.

What I meant is you'll have got most of the experience running down routers, it's now much easier to make people run, so you'll they'll be more routers.

2. re byz spears, it might possibly be too early, but still unsure as zero starting $$. By turn 10 i was able to build and recruit as normal. Before that, didn't build anything but $$ generating building and didn't recruit a single unit. and only took one settlement by that time. w/out starting $$, definitely made me turtle until i could recruit units reliably. so if anyone else turtles, they would have to depend on byz spears. I'll have to play a little more and see how or if overpowering byz spears might be.

OK.

3. re merchants, almost immediately, Venetian, Hungarian, HRE, Milan, merchants showed up outside Constantinople, and later on Egyptian. most of these were levels 3-4 and my merchant was lvl 3. so acquired them w/ anywhere from 13-27%, and the byz merch acquired 5 of those merchants before it backfired. my merch did not advance lvls through those 5 acquisitions.

Acquisitions give the GoodMerchant line a boost, but the starting Byzantine Merchant is already at the max for this so you need to start picking up monopolist line if you want skill increases.

Well, there's no answer to dumb AI. Forcing players to play dumb isn't fun for the players. CA needs to work on the core AI and expose more for modders. Economic decisions, like whether to convert, just aren't processed well, if at all. Ditto for deep raids, amphibious invasions, and bypassing strong-points. As long as the AI's view of strategy is brute force, we'll have these problems with players easily outperforming it.

To up difficulty, "give it more stuff." I hate that mentality.

Whilst i understand (and even to a degree share), the sentiments, no AI is ever going to be good enough that we DON'T need to use the "give it more" mentality. In fact thats exactly what where doing with the money script. Although the stacks breaking against Corbara haven't been that powerful TBH, just repetitive in that the AI is hitting me with a new one as soon as it can get it trained, and since Recruitment slots are a bigger limitation than money when you only have 3 provinces the Spanish just don't let up. on the other hand the recruitment slots limit how far we can go with the give it more stuff, and by about turn 80 the AI income should reduce the money script to a band aid rather than a major source of income.

But I'm less and less sure that the economy is really a castle versus city thing as much as it's touted. As you point out, castles do fairly well (though not explosively well) with trade. And you can dump in the farms without worrying about revolts. The large problem is poor management.

I agree, thats one of many things i'm trying to correct TBH. CA goes on about the distinction, and for those factions with really good late castle units and for inland castles without a port it's true. The castles are a major source of good units and when they don't have a port they don't tend to make too much money compared to cities. But give them a port and they skyrocket. If we cut castle income though we risk hurting the AI.

The other problem is that things like where the AI attacks ARE controllable, but the AI is only capable of looking at the local provinces bordering it. you can't make it look at a distant province and see if it's well defended, plus once the AI sets out on an attack it won't stop, it will launch it even if the defenses increase 10 fold in the time it takes to get their. The AI basic Hard-code is VERY simplistic. It would probably work fine with a risk style map but is useless with something so dynamic.

I think the scaled tax penalty is a missing brake at the moment. Put that back and take another look at growth. Or just up-tweak conversion costs by a small factor in both cost and time (double both). Then see how it affects the growth of cities and castles, it will show in player expansion performance over 50 turns.

If cities (and castles) are growing slower, taxes and trade will be less. Tech will be lower.

AD reduces this a LOT. But it adds a lot more regions, so the time scale fits the geographic scale better. All build times are increase, as are costs. And growth rates are lower. Deciding which building to build next is not a trivial process. After 30 turns, you may have built 3 buildings in one city. But it feels like a whole new strategic game. (if the turn updates didn't take as long as waiting for a siege to time out...)

I think the Taxes IS having an effect, but it's also I think mostly to do with ports. Without ports castles work as advertised economically. Give them a port though and they end up coming worryingly close to a city in terms of income. it gets less as the city size gets larger and the wharf/market series builds up but still...

Anyway, decided to postpone tackling Jerusalem to hit Rhodes, which is still rebel. Almost there and see Venice had the same idea. It brought 2 units though. I brought a whole stack. I'll wait for it to fail. Unless I cross the Black Sea, or head north from Tbilisi, I'm left with Jerusalem, and islands or coastal regions. Maybe I should go take Valencia.

I refuse to break an alliance though. So will be waiting on Byz or Egypt... or the horde.

You got your war/islands yet then?

vonsch

03-18-2007, 04:14

Byz declared turn 34. I'm about to play out the seige of Iconium defensively. Don't think it's an issue. I passed on attacking the stack with my HA to see how the defenses do. The HA intercepted another, though, and I saw reinforcements for that one just before this seige popped, so my HA may be pressed too ~;).

Venice still beseiging Rhodes. Brought in a general, but Rhodes has about 6-8 units and Venice has two plus the general. Unless more turn up...

My stack is sitting there waiting its turn.

Well, siege defense was easy.

Diplomacy seems to work. PS declared on Byz instantly. I was at perfect with the Pope. Next turn Poland and Venice declared. Of course, Poland may be due to that crusade inbound still.

I see Venetian reinforcement in a fleet off Rhodes, enough to do the job. But the garrison sallies next turn. Not sure those reinforcements will be in time. But I have a better use for my stack there. Byz stripped Smyrna and Nicaea ~;). Oops, they left Nicosia without a real garrison too. One unit. So landings near Smyrna and on Cyprus. That will hit them in the purse, and cut reinforcements, and secure the eastern Med for trading. If Venice plays nice.

I have nearly two stacks facing my HA stack-3. And for once they deployed them in an interesting fashion, all the HA and archers are in the stack sitting next to mine, with the infantry in the reinforcing one. Means I take losses, then the spears show up when I'm out of ammo. Not good. Hmm, do I have a handy night-fighter? Heh, yep, the Sultan, and he's almost 60 anyway. Darn can't reach the infantry stack though.

Egypt has a half stack at Jerusalem. Good luck, allies!

I hate night battles... so much confusion! ~;) 5:4 odds. But loads of archers on their side too. Ouchie.

Bloody. And the Sultan died. But he was old. Best to go in battle. At least the heir picked up night fighter in that battle. Bought the Egyptians up to amiable to try to avoid a two-front war at least until I control the straights. Now I see if I over citified. Only one castle to crank out replacement for HA force. But a couple cities can build saracens. And button is up on jihad. But that second stack will probably hit my HA. If so, I may only pull out a close defeat as I'm at about half strength. Filled up some gaps with mercs though. It's almost 100% infantry and very few archers, so if my ammo doesn't run out, it will be ugly for them. Don't see any other stacks in Turkey. Maybe they will strip Constantinople for me.

Oh, that infantry stack is all militia except one Byz Infantry. No problem. No general either. They are going in the bag if they come on! Surround them, shoot them up until they rout or I run out of ammo, then mass charge. Usually instant mass rout at that point. Hope my heir gets a few replacements for his guard before the battle though. He's down to 9.

Only second turn of war and I only attacked once, and on my own land. Still at perfect rep. But I landed two armies on Byz lands, so may start seeing a slide.

Heh, like everyone has a seige engineer. Architects are not popping now though. May not be staying in cities during building completion as much as I was with England. More cities means more shuffling. And in the field and in sieges more too.

Heh, infantry army turned tail and hustled off towards Smyrna. But I have a ballista. ~;) They won't be in time. Oh, there's the Pole crusade! Near Smyrna too. Bandits popping now. Does being at war trigger more? Second in two turns.

10:1 odds at Smyrna. My kind of siege. That's my second castle, and nice and near the front. nice of them, a Knight's Stables for replacement HA up to Sipahi and a range for Turkish Archers. But no love on the barracks. Tier 1. No econ upgrade besides the port. Next turn Cyprus will be mine too.

HA army hitting that infantry stack. Don't want it getting away to pose trouble elsewhere. Good slaughter!
Darn, let 61 get away. Well, my guys were tired.

Looks like Venice failed to get reinforcements onto Rhodes on time. Heh, and now they are back with a FULL stack. This time they will take it.

I have one full stack of Byz in Nicaea, decent garrisons (half stack) in Nicaea and Cons, and a lot of riff raff loose. My HA army cleaning up gradually. The full stack is mostly infantry. Arrow fodder. Next turn is 40 and I think it's time for a jihad on Cons. Then I'll use that region as my barrier and start cleaning up the Byz since they refuse to love me. No drop in rep so far. Mostly attacking on my land still. My sieges went fast, one lasted 1 turn, other was instant. Three spies working now too. Working on their skill and watching rep. Not a twitch.

The Polish crusade is just sitting in Smyrna province. Since they are allies, no issue for me, but wondering why they do that. Jerusalem is sitting there rebel.

Byz stack is after Smyrna. Time to stop that nonsense. Must be mostly militia again, 5:3 odds and my units are smaller, mostly Turcomen. More good slaughter. They had no cav or archers. Now they have nothing. I see there's no garrison (1-3 units) in Corinth and Thessalonica. This war will end inside 10 turns.

Oh, heretics seem scarce. Don't know if I've seen any this game. I saw 2 regions with over 10%, but cleaned them up fast. Most are under 4% now.

I predict Venice will reach for the knife next. Dubious rep and relationship omly reasonable, which it's been. Should be better since I'm attacking our mutual enemy. Egypt is amiable and very trustworthy. Probably safe there for now.

Heh, Byz bribed my -2 influence diplomat. Good riddance! I wish we could fire those.

Turn 43 I backdoored Corinth. So Byz has a production problem. Byz has taken Iraklion from Venice though. I beat down 3 of their small fleets (including one with an army aboard ~;) ) near there. Still no twitch on rep: Imaculate. Do we know for sure being at war drops global rep? Also spying pretty steadily with my 3 spies.

Haven't lost a battle yet. Does that affect rep? (Been lucky with my small navy.) Okay, lost one now. No twitch on rep (massive naval engagement with PS as allies. About 7 stacks.)

Thanks, Byz! My most advanced castle instantly.

Carl

03-18-2007, 13:24

Lots of information their. I'll pick out a few bits.

Did you encounter Byzantine spears at all? If you did what did you make of them as the opponent?

Heh, like everyone has a seige engineer. Architects are not popping now though. May not be staying in cities during building completion as much as I was with England. More cities means more shuffling. And in the field and in sieges more too.

I couldn't find the trigger that was causing it. I'll look some more though.

Looks like Venice failed to get reinforcements onto Rhodes on time. Heh, and now they are back with a FULL stack. This time they will take it.

Keep an eye on Byzantium, they may try to grab it.

Oh, heretics seem scarce. Don't know if I've seen any this game. I saw 2 regions with over 10%, but cleaned them up fast. Most are under 4% now.

Interesting.

Turn 43 I backdoored Corinth. So Byz has a production problem. Byz has taken Iraklion from Venice though. I beat down 3 of their small fleets (including one with an army aboard ) near there. Still no twitch on rep: Imaculate. Do we know for sure being at war drops global rep? Also spying pretty steadily with my 3 spies.

Yeah, watch out that they don't come back at you from their.

The Polish crusade is just sitting in Smyrna province. Since they are allies, no issue for me, but wondering why they do that. Jerusalem is sitting there rebel.

It's an annoying thing they do. Try gifting them military access.

Do we know for sure being at war drops global rep? Also spying pretty steadily with my 3 spies.

Yep, can confirm from moors campaign, trouble is that with 13 alliances you'd need to be at war with 3 people to see a drop.

Alright, try to give you a description of my moors campaign to date.

Turn 1 started moving my spare general and stack near Tunis to Granada, kept going, about the time I got their a general came of age and the Sultan died of old age so I used the non-faction Heir as the chiv on the other guy would have a rep effect.

Was about turn 10 at this point and I spent the next 10 turns building troops and moving to attack Valencia. Was a mixture of Desert Archers, Arab Cav, Merc Spears, and Merc Xbows. got beaten back 300:80 (that 300 odd and 80 odd BTW). I rebuilt my stack with more units from Grenada and went and grabbed it for good with about 200 dead to their 500.

At this point I converted Granada to a city and was starting to build a mixed stack of Tuareg Camel Spears and Desert Cav. Spain then attacked me. Beat the off, so Portugal Attacked me. beat them off. Then Portugal again, beat them and got all their family in one battle plus a big Spanish reinforcement army but lost my commanding general when the enemy Cav got into the city. Fortunately their infantry was dead by this point, (they waited till all their infantry had died assaulting the walls before taking advantage of the open gate with their Cav). So they got a mass of spear/town militia in the rear and Tuareg Camel Spears, (a gift for mission completion), and my general in the front.

Spanish reinforcement stack just sat their and I lured them into my towers range one at a time where they where torn to bits.

I'd started a Jihad at Toledo by this point and disbanded the Cav stack I as working on as it wasn't any good for sieges and the upkeep was killing me when I needed infantry in Cordoba. Valencia has been besieged a few times but I've sent them packing every time so...

Grabbed Toledo and now have an explorers guild mission on Lisbon.

Bob the Insane

03-18-2007, 13:50

Carl

03-18-2007, 13:55

INteresting little tit-bit as the Scotish.... I havd run a Diplomate around europe making alliances anf ended up with an immaculate reputation and a perfect relationship. Well England (my ally with a good relationship?) blockaded Edinburgh...

This is despite it still bordering rebel lands in Farance and the French having parked an army stack on their lands for ages...

They clearly see you as an easier target that the rebs.

Well the result of them blockading Edinburge was that the Pope excommunicated them and then delared war!! Cool...

However their relationship with the pope inexplicably improved and I found myself mo longer at war with them??

The first bits nice, the second bit is weird, best I can geuss is their diplomat found the popes and asked and got reconcilliation and an aliance. If that happened then it automaticlly ends any wars the Papal States allies have with the target. In fact if they allied with any of your allies and you are Trustwory rep and oustanding relations it will end the war for you.

Alright, A quick update on things.

First a map of the World as it was at 1136 with me as moors I quit 4 turns later as I was getting too bogged down.

https://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=summer1134moorsux9.jpg

It's interesting to note that once France grabs something, (it started with Bordeaux), it tends to explode. It even wiped out Milan:laugh4:. and up to a few turns ago all the English owned stuff bar cean belonged t France too. I got Portugal as noted earlier. Spain just Bribed Valencia Away from me BTW.

I'm now going to implement a bunch of changes and start a new campaign as someone else. Probs either Byzantium or Venice as I want to leave the whole western Europe area to it's own devices and i'm still not confident enough with Muslims/HA cultures to start Egypt/Turks/Russia/Hungary/Poland.

Keep letting me know how your getting on guys. Vonsch sounds like it's about to get really interesting and i'm sure others are in interesting positions too.

vonsch

03-18-2007, 18:03

Okay, a note from just before I went to bed.

Turn 34 I was at Amiable with Egypt. They were Very Trustworthy and I was Imaculate. They blockaded Acre with Jerusalem still reb.

That seems wrong. A relationship that strong should have to decay below amiable before they attack, IMO. I think the trigger mentioned in the thread I read (when a setting or two is changed off vanilla) was below amiable and below very trustworthy on their end and mine.

But then I was tired and mis clicked and decided to reload (bad misclick). So am back at turn 33. I'll experiment with some things to see if Egypt's behavior is constant. Mind you, I'm rated as THE power in game, and I'm not exactly weak on that border. But Egypt has a stack in Jerusalem, I have about a half-stack in Acre. I was surprised they would attack.

I don't have a diplomat close to that crusade stack, but if I can make one in the area I'll try gifing Poland military rights and see if that kicks it into motion. Hadn't occurred to me that being allied might make them leery of moving on, especially since they're already in my land. They have a fleet right there too.

I'll look for the trigger on that siege engineer too. It's silly. Most of my generals have siege engineers now.

Don't forget to tweak spy count. 1 per building level should be reasonable.

I don't know how the alliance affect on rep will play out. That will take deeper testing. I suspect alliances will break up as wars get going though, and later as the player starts expanding. That should help trigger more player wars. If not, the positive nudge of alliances should be decreased by half or so. It's not hard to get 10+ alliances in 20 turns before the rebs are thinned out. It's easier as a Catholic if the Pope dies. Just use the election screen to ally with all the other Catholics.

Hmm, I only see triggers based on the siegeworks line, and that's NOT what's triggering them for me. And it's a low odds trigger for being in the city with the siege buildings. I'm getting them in cities, and only castles get that line now too. Odd. You could try taking out triggers 1 and 2 and just leaving in the one based on being there when the building is built. Change 3 to cat level if so. Don't see mention of anything in error logs either.

Seems much harder to get admiral stars. That a change? The Ai gets them easily though, it appears.

This is interesting. PS has a lot of fleets, mostly 2 ship fleets. Byz has 2-3 ship fleets. PS is shadowing Byz everywhere but rarely attacks them (they remain at war too). But this helps me a lot because I can sail up a fleet and the PS is pulled in as allies. So between us we win every engagement. Never won so many naval battles before! Still lots of Byz fleets though. I'm cleaning out their upkeep roster for them. Hopefully their production capacity is trimmed back to keep it from becoming a problem on land though. A bit intimidate by the two Nicaea stacks. No room for maneuver there so need to plan on pulling all of them, and they are effectively pinning my main HA army bacause if I move off the path to my cities, they ARE a threat there. Think I'm better taking on Iraklion or Thesalonica first at this rate. Soon as I can survive a fleet transport to either. Council says Iraklion too. Would help cut their ship production. Iraklion is making ships it appears. Darned siege gear really slows down fleets (and probably should).

Oh, I positioned single ship fleets just off my southern ports and Egypt hasn't moved. There's something juicy about blockade targets it seems, that overrides diplomacy logic. That's silly. If the AI is going to war, it should open with a REAL attack and get something from the surprise.

Interesting. I gave the Poles military access and they boarded their ship next turn. Let's see if they hit Jerusalem. At least they will stir up the Eggies.

Finally got the Byz to move out of their protective huddle at Nicaea. They moved a full stack and a piece of another together towards Smyrna. But my HA leader is a night fighter. Small stack screening dies first. Then the bigger one. This should open things up for a move on Constantinople and/or Nicaea. The Thesalonica stack moved over to Durazzo. Suspect Byz may be eyeing PS. My invasion force for Crete is aboard ship, but it's 2 turns there, so trying to clear out the Byz fleets and arrange a screen for the transport. PS everywhere, which helps. Eliminating that port and shipyard as Byz will really help the naval war. Gives me safe ports to sally from to sink theirs. But they might switch from building fleets to garrison units, in which case I might not have enough to handle them, though I'm packing extra and a ballista to make it a fast attack. But that also slows the fleet. Choices...

Meanwhile, Egypt getting addressive. Landed a short stack on Cyprus (should be safe, building a couple more garrison units). Another short stack is between Acre and Antioch in the valley off the road. A full stack is in the desert to east of Jerusalem threatening Damascus or points east. I expect war with them anytime, though relations remain amiable and they are very trustworthy. Building another HA army to handle them until Byz is slapped down firmly.

Had hereticism in Edessa leap to almost 20%. And one of my priests there (my theo guild is Baghdad) go whacko. I burnt him immediately, so not sure how much of the 20% was his preaching. I haven't been overrun with heretics, and considering I had things pretty controlled, it's an interesting twist. As long as it's not going to happen every 5 turns or less.

More rebels popping too, but not huge numbers. A general with 3-4 HA/cav handle them well. They've been mostly in the Antioch to Baghdad highway.

Carl

03-18-2007, 20:54

That seems wrong. A relationship that strong should have to decay below amiable before they attack, IMO. I think the trigger mentioned in the thread I read (when a setting or two is changed off vanilla) was below amiable and below very trustworthy on their end and mine.

Actually that wasn't very strong at all.

Just let me clarify. ignoring bad rep/relations the scale that diplomatic relations are measured on ranges from 0.0 to 1.0 for both rep and faction standing

Reasonable Faction Standing is anything between 0.0 and less than 0.2.

Amiable ranges from 0.2 to just less than 0.4.

Good ranges from 0.4 to just below 0.6.

Very Good ranges from 0.6 to just below 0.8

Outstanding ranges from 0.8 to just below 1.0 and perfect is 1.0

your standing needs to be equal or greater than 0.6.

Amiable simply isn't very good, it's the way factions look at one another when they consider them a possible permanent Friend, but not yet a full, (but untrusted), Friend.

Rep is simpler, but you need Trustworthy or above now.

I'll look for the trigger on that siege engineer too. It's silly. Most of my generals have siege engineers now.

AND

Hmm, I only see triggers based on the siege-works line, and that's NOT what's triggering them for me. And it's a low odds trigger for being in the city with the siege buildings. I'm getting them in cities, and only castles get that line now too. Odd. You could try taking out triggers 1 and 2 and just leaving in the one based on being there when the building is built. Change 3 to cat level if so. Don't see mention of anything in error logs either.

I've figured it out after staring non-stop at things for a while. What it is is that with the Siege equipment buildings gone the condition relating to these buildings for governors in cities is invalid and is ignored, so they are getting a chance every turn as the only requirement to trigger a character getting it anymore is ending the turn in a city. and their are 3 city triggers so it's a near certainty you'll get it.

I don't know how the alliance affect on rep will play out. That will take deeper testing. I suspect alliances will break up as wars get going though, and later as the player starts expanding. That should help trigger more player wars. If not, the positive nudge of alliances should be decreased by half or so. It's not hard to get 10+ alliances in 20 turns before the rebs are thinned out. It's easier as a Catholic if the Pope dies. Just use the election screen to ally with all the other Catholics.

I'm beginning to agree, plus I think the war based rep hit is too large for the AI as the AI then never gets a good alliance and spends far too long backstabbing each other and not long enough dealing with the player.

Seems much harder to get admiral stars. That a change? The AI gets them easily though, it appears.

If the combined forces, (yours and allies), attacking the enemy fleet exceeds a certain percentage in the strength calculator you can't pick up a star as your considered to be too strong.

A bit intimidate by the two Nicaea stacks. No room for maneuver there so need to plan on pulling all of them, and they are effectively pinning my main HA army because if I move off the path to my cities, they ARE a threat there. Think I'm better taking on Iraklion or Thesalonica first at this rate. Soon as I can survive a fleet transport to either. Council says Iraklion too. Would help cut their ship production. Iraklion is making ships it appears. Darned siege gear really slows down fleets (and probably should).

LOL, whats in those stacks? And what did you make of Byzantine spears as the opponent?

vonsch

03-18-2007, 21:29

I thought Amiable was above good/very good. You sure those ranges are right? I THINK that's what I've observed with Papal bribing, but by no means sure. That would explain it. The rep is good enough, but the "liking" isn't. Which isn't surprising as Egypt is a programmed conflict too. I just expected to see some decay in the relationship due to that.

Aha! Brilliant on the siege engineers. Good catch! Slippery logic.

As far as the war/rep logic goes, I don't think a state of war should decay rep. On the other hand, invading, even invading an enemy you're at war with, should. A transgression trigger tied to territorial transgressions and taking settlements would do that, right? Have the former be a smaller hit though. The AI does that a lot. Is there one for besieging? If so, that would be middlin bad. But taking settlements should apply a decent drop. Expansionism should be worrying, even if the perp didn't start the war. Don't think there's a way to check for "just wars." (Outside the whole crusade mechanic, at least.)

Having lots of alliances should help: being a team player, consensus, etc. But it shouldn't override expansionist behavior. So the player might get some "free" expansion if careful and allied up well, but it won't last. Or it would have to be paced carefully.

If the combined forces, (yours and allies), attacking the enemy fleet exceeds a certain percentage in the strength calculator you can't pick up a star as your considered to be too strong.

Suspect that was it. Suddenly picking up some stars. I've cleared out a lot and am getting more solo now. Mostly the leftovers. ~;)

LOL, whats in those stacks? And what did you make of Byzantine spears as the opponent?

Byz spears are just arrow fodder too. But they are better offensively at tackling cities and if you try to melee them. I am seeing some, but mostly melee. Are they a castle unit? If so, I created some supply issues for Byz. ~;)

The stacks are some spears, some militia, some archers, some Byz cav, decent mix for AI. The pure spears/militia, without archer or cav support, are simply dead. But they'd have little chance against Smyrna at this point. It has about 3/4 stack, Saracens as hole-blockers, some milita spears as fodder, Turk archers, and a ghazi or two and a muta... along with a general. Played out on the battlescreen I would expect to do just fine. With some losses. The Iconium defense convinced me of that. But it's even "cheaper" to have my HA take them down in the field. And it builds experience where I want it.

As far as my intimidation, it's strategic more than tactical. I can beat them, but if I get chewed up in the process (as is likely with two stacks in a place with limited room to retreat, should I feel the need) it might let another stack wreak some havoc while I am arranging replacements, a 4-5 turn project at the moment. So I aim to preserve my force as a high priority as in a holding action it can do a lot of damage and retreat with few casualties, and do it over and over. If I have to "win," it can get expensive.

But they came out. So they will die. And that will leave each of those two cities with a half-stack garrison, so jihad and sieges will follow. I'll bottle up both same turn if I can. Only reinforcement can come from the west then, and that should be too long since they mostly are in Durrazo at the moment. May be some floating around in fleets somewhere still though.

If I can land on Iraklion at the same time...

Well, Egypt would be smart not to provoke me.

Heh, money getting tight too. Still building mostly everywhere. But my force ration is growing rapidly so my surplus after ongoing costs is slipping as the cost of each building goes up. Am starting to prioritize. Some cities hitting the growth barrier too. Jihad would help, just don't want to risk desertions. The risk of dumping high experience HA into a crusader army is if they have to react to reinforcements they move off the siege and can see desertions. Unless they can hit and return in the same turn, at least.

WhEN do the hordes turn up with your timer settings? Is it getting close? I', not ready for them, that's for sure. But your walls will help there.

Wow, that was an odd battle. Nasty terrain for attack, loads of clilffs, hard to know where to deploy since it was dark. But the enemy ran while I was trying to figure out how to get to them. No losses either side. So the short stack is now making a full stack with the garrison of Nicaea. And I am about to meet the loose full stack. Slightly better terrain, I hope. Yep, lost 21 men, killed or captured 623 of 846.

Heh, the remnants retreated to a second short stack I had out between Smyrna and Nicaea, so I get another bite. Bloody. That was their faction leader in a single unit reinforcement. And I had a 0 star general and 4 inexperienced HA. Won, but left with fragments of 4 units and no general. But wiped out that stack of theirs. And my main army is intact.

A side expedition from Treb took Caffa with a town militia force (about 13-14 of them).

Carl

03-18-2007, 22:18

Why do the hordes turn up with your timer settings? Is it getting close? I', not ready for them, that's for sure. But your walls will help there.

The warning should hit somwhere between 1144 and 1152.

I'll answer the rest in a moment but I figured you'd want the info fast on this one.

I thought Amiable was above good/very good. You sure those ranges are right? I THINK that's what I've observed with Papal bribing, but by no means sure. That would explain it. The rep is good enough, but the "liking" isn't. Which isn't surprising as Egypt is a programmed conflict too. I just expected to see some decay in the relationship due to that.

Theirs no programmed decay that know of, you just start with worse relations. trouble is since I have to delay AI attacks on the player by an extra 20 turns it often takes the bite out of this as you have time to build up. I have cut the power of bribes so as to make pope bribery harder, and that should help as even a generous diplomatic offer includes a rep boosting bribe effect.

Aha! Brilliant on the siege engineers. Good catch! Slippery logic.

Thanks, took enough spotting LOL.

As far as the war/rep logic goes, I don't think a state of war should decay rep. On the other hand, invading, even invading an enemy you're at war with, should. A transgression trigger tied to territorial transgressions and taking settlements would do that, right? Have the former be a smaller hit though. The AI does that a lot. Is there one for besieging? If so, that would be middling bad. But taking settlements should apply a decent drop. Expansionism should be worrying, even if the perp didn't start the war. Don't think there's a way to check for "just wars." (Outside the whole crusade mechanic, at least.)

I've already cut the war trigger and heavily toned down the alliance trigger so that 10 alliances will still take a good 250 turns to hit immaculate from mixed. The rest of the things you describe are already their.

Byz spears are just arrow fodder too. But they are better offensively at tackling cities and if you try to melee them. I am seeing some, but mostly melee. Are they a castle unit? If so, I created some supply issues for Byz.

:yes: their a castle unit available from the second level barracks. I asked mainly because they are pretty well armored as things stand so they won't fall over in a hurry to HA attacks, I wanted to check that they weren't overpoweringly good in that respect. I wanted them to be tougher than usual, but not overpowering. Mainly because I want to see Byzantine as a mixed army of HA/Heavy Cav/Light Cav/Foot Archers/Melee Infantry, as apposed to concentrating on one thing. Thats pretty much how they where working to begin with with the exception that the foot units didn't really work due to the lack of a good foot spear unit.

The stacks are some spears, some militia, some archers, some Byz Cav, decent mix for AI. The pure spears/militia, without archer or Cav support, are simply dead. But they'd have little chance against Smyrna at this point. It has about 3/4 stack, Saracens as hole-blockers, some militia spears as fodder, Turk archers, and a ghazi or two and a muta... along with a general. Played out on the battlescreen I would expect to do just fine. With some losses. The Iconium defense convinced me of that. But it's even "cheaper" to have my HA take them down in the field. And it builds experience where I want it.

As far as my intimidation, it's strategic more than tactical. I can beat them, but if I get chewed up in the process (as is likely with two stacks in a place with limited room to retreat, should I feel the need) it might let another stack wreak some havoc while I am arranging replacements, a 4-5 turn project at the moment. So I aim to preserve my force as a high priority as in a holding action it can do a lot of damage and retreat with few casualties, and do it over and over. If I have to "win," it can get expensive.

But they came out. So they will die. And that will leave each of those two cities with a half-stack garrison, so jihad and sieges will follow. I'll bottle up both same turn if I can. Only reinforcement can come from the west then, and that should be too long since they mostly are in Durrazo at the moment. May be some floating around in fleets somewhere still though.

If I can land on Iraklion at the same time...

Well, Egypt would be smart not to provoke me.

OK, what turn are you at now then?

Heh, money getting tight too. Still building mostly everywhere. But my force ration is growing rapidly so my surplus after ongoing costs is slipping as the cost of each building goes up. Am starting to prioritize. Some cities hitting the growth barrier too. Jihad would help, just don't want to risk desertions. The risk of dumping high experience HA into a crusader army is if they have to react to reinforcements they move off the siege and can see desertions. Unless they can hit and return in the same turn, at least.

Glad to hear your finally being slowed down. Take it from your comments that Egypt finally got Jerusalem.

Wow, that was an odd battle. Nasty terrain for attack, loads of clilffs, hard to know where to deploy since it was dark. But the enemy ran while I was trying to figure out how to get to them. No losses either side. So the short stack is now making a full stack with the garrison of Nicaea. And I am about to meet the loose full stack. Slightly better terrain, I hope. Yep, lost 21 men, killed or captured 623 of 846.

Heh, the remnants retreated to a second short stack I had out between Smyrna and Nicaea, so I get another bite. Bloody. That was their faction leader in a single unit reinforcement. And I had a 0 star general and 4 inexperienced HA. Won, but left with fragments of 4 units and no general. But wiped out that stack of theirs. And my main army is intact.

A side expedition from Treb took Caffa with a town militia force (about 13-14 of them).

Wheres caffa??? I don't recognize the name, sorry...

vonsch

03-18-2007, 22:23

The warning should hit somwhere between 1144 and 1152.

I'll anwser the rst in a moment but I figured you'd want the info fast on this one.

Well, don't have any control over it, just curious. Haven't met them to date, so if I hang in here it will be my first meeting.

My invasion of Crete is at sea. 3 small fleets with it to try to slip it through. Only one Byz fleet in sight though, at Crete.

Poles still sitting there in their crusade fleet. err, no they aren't, it's empty. Oh, there they are, moving towards Jerusalem on foot again.

Turn 47: Pre Iraklion Invasion.
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/718/0001xd4.th.jpg (https://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0001xd4.jpg)

Whew! That was closer than I like. Landed at Iraklion, garrison was down to one unit. I had ballista so I stormed it. Pulled reinforcements off a fleet there! (Didn't know about that, cute trick, I'll USE it!) Ended up 2:1 odds. Beat them. Got lucky. They retreated to their ship so now I try to sink that viper.

Heh, Egypt just attacked one of my troop waystation forts. So it's war there too. PS declared on them instantly.

And I agree that a lessening of bribe effects is good, with the current system of alliances. Just don't overdo it. I'm not rolling in bribe money as it is. One thing missing, I'd say, is something to decrease Muslim faction rep with the Pope. Apparently, we don't take the hits the Catholics do for our actions, as long as we don't attack crusades, at least.

Wheres caffa??? I don't recognize the name, sorry...

Um, blanking on the modern name... Penninsula in the Black Sea... let me find my atlas. Sevastopol. Oh, those slaves in Caffa are nice income that's fairly close too. For Turkey, at least.

OK, what turn are you at now then?
Turn 48. Year 1127.

On the Byz Spears, as long as it's not an army of 50% plus Byz Spears my HA chew them up fine. But they are tougher. The key is to bag them: set up so you're shooting into them from both flanks and rear, while giving them something to chase around. Get them to shaken fast, and then have something with some charge oomph smack into their backsides. They rout. Then they die. My generals usually run over and through them from the flanks or rear. As long as they keep moving, they do fine. Bog down more than an instant and they get hurt. Badly.

Egypt is bypassing Jerusalem. It's still rebel. I kind of like it that way. ~;) At least as long as it draws crusades away from me, and keeps Egypt busy.

Darned Poles can't make up their minds, now they are back aboard their ship!

Heh, a Sicilian fleet was next to a Byz one. The Byz one had the Crete reinforcements on it, so I attacked it. The Sicilians declared on Byz and joined in. We're building to world war! So... since Sicily is helping... sink the other two fleets at Crete too. ~;) I am learning to love allies. Have to use them shamelessly while they are playing nice, since it won't last.

Jihad time. Sideswiping Nicaea on the way to Cons.

Oh, Egypt did take a rep hit for that backstab. Probably not enough, cosidering. Went from VT down to Reliable. Breaking an alliance with an attack should really dump rep.

AI navies in my area are making serious use of fleets to move troops. But they aren't good at protecting them. Two Egyptian fleets sunk with about 15 units total. That will help. Another Byz one hit, but it's lost in the fog. Meanwhile, my invasion fleet headed for Thesalonica got pushed back. Won first engagement, but got hit again, so is back in port for repairs. AI not smart, but it's not doing badly with its fleets on the whole. Environment is just nasty for my enemies with allies all over too. Actually, the big difference is the AI doesn't run for port for repairs if damaged. That means they end up dead versus delayed, which costs them good admirals and good experienced crews.

Nicaea fell to a quick siege turn 49. Overwhelming force. Object not immovable. I had a fleet right there to transfer armies across the strait. So with two in place at the walls, I moved my HA stack to the NW side... and ran into an ambush party in the trees. Heh. Problem. For Byz. It was ALL infantry. Bagged them with 16 losses. 496 of 496 killed or captured. Now moving last army into place and then will do another quick siege. Siege engines move slowly, but they sure help with lightning attacks.

This will leave only Durrazo to Byz, unless the scooped up another to the north. Meanwhile, nearly have a full stack to go at Egypt with. But they have a lot of Mumlaks salting their stacks, so going to be bloody. I lack archers in my southern cities (no militia archers, at least so far), so need to rectify that to toughen up their defenses to attacks. And I'll put together a nice little "storm the sands" force to swoop south from Crete into the Egyptian rear. Gaza should be easy too. That will kill off their forward base.

Racing the horde clock.

30:7 odds against Constantinople. Onward to Thesalonica!

Result of a half stack of Byz Spear & Byz Infantry ambush of a full stack of Turks HA:
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8482/0003br7.th.jpg (https://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0003br7.jpg)

That's a bag pulled closed over them. There was one more solo guy running off west, but he didn't make it. You can see my ammo supply is pretty low. A full stack is too many. 3/4 is iffy.

Carl

03-19-2007, 01:11

30:7 odds against Constantinople. Onward to Thesalonica!

:laugh4:

I am watching you, just letting the info flow in for the moment, it's as fascinating listening to you play as it is discussing potential issues:smash:.

I take it your enjoying yourself a lot then?

How's it compare in terms of fun and challenge to Vanilla/V1.13?

I WILL go into some of the points you've raised a bit later though.

vonsch

03-19-2007, 01:21

Okay, I admit it, I'm having fun.

The first 30 turns are a bit slow, but I can't say I mind be allowed to execute a plan for a bit. After that the scrambling and the plan B and plan C and plan Z activity kick in.

And alliances mean something, but they don't mean I can relax. Venice or Hungary (and maybe Russia) have to be eyeing me now. Russia was at Caffa the turn after I got there. They left when I won the siege. But I see the border of Tbilisi is blue now too. We'll see who gets the Mongols, me or them.

You can see what I know of the map on that last screenie. Egypt has points south. If I grab Alexandria and Cairo, and hit Gaza from the front. They are finished. They can't work with just Jedda and Dongola. If they own anything farther west, same issue. Too great a distance. They will fall apart.

Constantinople jumps me ahead to Jan Archers. Those I will make and mostly ship east. I'll keep a few in the key garrisons on my west borders, especially Constantinople where they are free garrison units. But I'll leave one HA army there to play defense. Will ship the other HA off to control Egypts penetrations, unless some pressing need arises. Can always use fresh-built for Egypt as the Egyptians are mostly raw troops too.

Turns take a while with all these battles.

Turn 50: Egypt backed off their little siege. I had a half stack of HA 2 spaces from them. Probably hit at least one micro stack next turn. They are roaming around Damascus area. The half stack that was besieging my little movement fort (unit of 9 ghazi in it) ran back south in the valley. It's one step from Jerusalem region. Pushed around an Egyptian fleet with another small army in it. Couldn't hit it twice to kill it though.

Poles west of Rhodes finally, sailing again. They sure are unsure of their plan.

Byz half-stacks retreating towards Thesalonica now. Durazzo crammed full. Thes has 5 units. Can't get my siege gear there fast. Still a couple Byz fleets in the area. One down, with 3 byz inf aboard. Pushed around more Egyptian fleets too. My best admiral is 3 star now, and his 3 war galleys are 2-3 silver chevrons.

One thing the player could use in information: what troops can be used as free garrison in castles, any?

My Thesalonica invasion force is poised 2 moves out again. It's on 2 fleets that the good admiral is escorting. It has ballistas and about a stack total, so if I can catch the garrison low, I can take it in one turn. My spies will signal me offshore if they see troops move out. I may try to bait with a small HA force without a general. Set it just away from the city and see if they will come out to try to crush it. Then land behind them. Probably won't work, but fun to try. This is assuming more Byz fleets don't appear and manage to stymie the plan. Two PS fleets close too, that will help.

Seeing AI HB guilds now. In castles, of course. Gaza and Corinth had them. I have had one at Caearea a while too. Hoping for a master there soon. Egypt has a Swordmaker somewhere too. Probably Cairo. TG at Nicaea, which I may keep. Hmm, Byz has Thieves' MG. Don't really want it there. Better place for Merchant Guild. Interesting, no brothel/inn stuff there. So they got it from the "all" bonus, I guess. That's a lot of spies and assassins. Haven't seen many though. I took EG at Antioch, which wasn't bright, really. But have picked up some ancilliaries. I wish forced march worked right. Merchant guild at Iconium. Offers I didn't want elsewhere so far.

Turn 51: Egypt besieges Damascus. They may have enough force to take it, except they won't get the chance. Portugal is now a Moor vassal. Haven't seen any wars there. Almost a full stack in sight off Baghdad, out of the desert sandstorms. Walls will have to do the job there. No archers. Saracens, about 8, as garrison.

Baghdad under seige. Damascus siege lifted. Just watched a half stack of Byz turn reb near Thesalonica. Picking off loose stacks of Eggies. One Byz field army tried to seal border with a fort. My HA stack has that under siege. Hoping to pull more garrison out, but that reb stack may do the trick too. The invasion is just off Thesalonica waiting. Cleaned out more stray Byz and Eggies fleets now. Eastern Med opening up to trade again.

Bongaroo

03-19-2007, 05:18

Playing as the byzantines. M/M. Tried to rush early on but really couldn't afford to expand quickly. After spending the time to set up a decent economy I've grabbed the available rebel regions. Venice broke an alliance and we've been at war ever since. A jihad was called on Constantinople but I haven't seen a turkish army and the egyptians and moors sued for a ceasefire at reasonable terms. The hungarians have become a lasting ally but otherwise we're on our own. The danes recently allied with hungry, perhaps they will ally with me as well.

https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/speedy420/byz2.jpg

https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/speedy420/byz1.jpg

The turks and venice have allied against me. After some bloody beatings they have somewhat backed off, perhaps rebuilding to attack again. I've been eating up their navies as well. The turks have only engaged in naval warfare and have yet to march on nicea or smyrna.

So far a blast. Can't wait for the mongels to show up and open up another front for the turks so I can grab some real estate.

vonsch

03-19-2007, 07:39

Looks like it has you working hard, Bob.

I watched Kagemusha, then went to settle the siege of Baghdad. No problem when I played it on the battlescreen. Odds were 5:4 against me on the power meter. Oddly, Egypt won first autoresolve I tried. It was no contest on the battle screen. Only issue is waiting out the stupid timer. There were like 40 enemies alive after I repulsed them at the walls and gate (no siege weapons, just 2 rams, one set of ladders and a tower.) Wall arrows managed to burn nothing. I had no archers. Their force was peasant and militia class except for some cav including mamluk archers. The saracen spears ate them up instantly. But the routed remnants rallied just a bit outside and for some reason the towers stopped firing. But the units on the walls were stuck in combat mode. So I brought them down and put them back into formation and they rested a bit. After I decided the timer was going to take forever and I might completely miss the Mongol invasion, I ran three Saracen units out, charged the riffraff, and routed them and popped the win screen.

I made a screenie of the aftermath of the party for kicks. The screenshot is just before I sent the Saracens out.

https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5521/0006ti9.th.jpg (https://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0006ti9.jpg)

Baghdad : Aftermath of the party to welcome Egypt to Mesopotamia.

https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2802/0004aq9.th.jpg (https://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0004aq9.jpg)
Damascus's revenge, or Infantry's Worst Nightmare.
(Daddy, tell me about the time you bagged those Egyptians!)

Turn 53: Crusade failed. And I have a stack of Poles that decided to take it out on me. Dumb Pollacks. Go home! They just became the bad boy diplomatically. PS declared on them and Denmark and Venice canceled their alliances.

Iconium just picked up the master merchant guild. Damascus under siege again. Pesky Eggies. Single unit stack! Maybe I'll let them storm it. They deserve the whipping.

Oh, Byz sued for peace. I spit in their general direction. Not at least until I take Thesalonica. Can't leave Corith out there that way. Like to plain eliminate them. They have too many horse archers. ~;)

Antioch can make Janissary Archers now, so those can spike the Mongols, I hope. Love their dual-duty with the spikes and the bows and still good melee. I'll back them with the saracen spears for now. Need to get Baghdad pumped to make them too. It's getting close. Probably should send a high chiv general to babysit that. Tbilisi will switch to a fort, I decided. Give me a local supply of dismounted sipahi lancers (if I can get the buildings up) and some other fun stuff. Maybe some siege gear would be nice at some river crossings. Not crazy about siege gear in field battles on the whole. But with a good slope, and a limited area to aim into, should work.

<sigh> Darned Poles. Nothing near Caesarea to take them out. If they head for Adana they can probably take it. Caesarea and Iconium should be okay, and Antioch. Some of the others are iffy too. It's a full stack with crusader units. Distractions from getting down to Byz! Or putting down Byz.

I really strongly dislike all horse archers... that are not mine!

Man, these Poles are dumb. So the commander heads off solo towards Antioch, and the stack heads west. meanwhile, Egypt keeps besieging Damascus with microstacks. Grr. Death by a thousand grains of sand, I think they call it. Sicced 4 HA units and a general on the Pole idiot. One Polecushion coming up! He did start charging one sipahi, then the noose closed and he just stood there. So die all who betray the Sultan!

https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/651/0009sc7.th.jpg (https://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0009sc7.jpg)
Last Stand of One Really Dumb Pollack

I think chivalry is a little TOO worthless for city management now. What is it, 0.5 growth per 5 points? What was it before? Can we strike a happy medium? I don't have so many generals that I can do more than a few cities full time managed anyway. And only a third or so tend to have high chivalry since I don't stuff jihads with generals that won't make the target on the last turn.

The fool Pole stack is running in circles. Looks like it's trying to find a way home. Maybe it will run into the Mongols.

Grr, those sneaky Byzzies. They got PS to agree to a truce, which mandated one from me too. Well, it won't last.

Turn 55: Jerusalem still neutral. Poles begged for peace. I billed them. Oops, France gone. Wonder who did that. Baghdad just hit large city. That will help if the hordes come my way. Tibilis is a fortress in 2 turns. Then I have to build ranges. I suspect Jan Archers and Ottoman Infantry will make up the bulk of my horde garrisons. With a few Saracens or Dismounted Sipahi Lancers. Those first two are great. Shoot up the incoming, shove away the ladder and tower parties, shoot rest of arrows, then go fight in the streets, if needed. Not to mention those loverly horse-impaling stakes!

Treasury stable again. Those Byz cities help. Now to take Egypt's on long-term loan. Moving some siege gear into range. The Egyptian navy is mostly under control. Not that they don't slip one through now and then. One landed an invasion on Cyprus...again. Don't think it's much threat. Will try to sneak some archer out though.

Put Corith to work cranking out all the naffatuns it can make. Shipping those east mostly. A couple per eastern city as boiling oil imitations. They are cheap upkeep at 50 each. Decent melee too, but small units. Edessa and Tbilisi will be able to make them soon too. A couple in every city then. Supposed to be great at general extermination too. We Turks don't need no stinking assassins. Turks do get some units with high coolness factor. Moors do too.

Byz loaded a half stack on a flimsy ship. I bet it heads for Smyrna or Iraklion. Meanwhile, Eggies besieged Damascus (again, chased off the 3 idiots... again) and Nicosia. Cleaning out some of their riffraff and about one turn from hitting Gaza if they strip the garrison again. They are WAY more annoying than the Byzzies.

For the moment, we have egg-free turkey. Their Nicosia siege was a flop. Ram burned, mostly cav, ladders pushed back with 7 losses on my side. And I had NO archers. They were so ashamed they suicided. And the last two stacks of Eggies stood too close together and I pulled them both into one battle. Swarmed them with a full stack of HA. Wasn't pretty, but it was effective. The last few were seen heading east into a sandstorm.

Carl

03-19-2007, 13:37

Better start on those damm replies:laugh4:.

Well, don't have any control over it, just curious. Haven't met them to date, so if I hang in here it will be my first meeting.

I figured you might be closer to the actual event than you where so I figured it would be important if it was about to drop on you.

And I agree that a lessening of bribe effects is good, with the current system of alliances. Just don't overdo it. I'm not rolling in bribe money as it is. One thing missing, I'd say, is something to decrease Muslim faction rep with the Pope. Apparently, we don't take the hits the Catholics do for our actions, as long as we don't attack crusades, at least.

I'd agree about the papal rep hit. That and whilst the bribe power HAS dropped it's not too far, you just need to work harder. I can still get very good relations up, it just takes more time and effort, thus limiting the number of people you can get to trusted with.

On the Byz Spears, as long as it's not an army of 50% plus Byz Spears my HA chew them up fine. But they are tougher. The key is to bag them: set up so you're shooting into them from both flanks and rear, while giving them something to chase around. Get them to shaken fast, and then have something with some charge oomph smack into their backsides. They rout. Then they die. My generals usually run over and through them from the flanks or rear. As long as they keep moving, they do fine. Bog down more than an instant and they get hurt. Badly.

Thats about what I hoped to hear, a tough nut to crack for HA, but not totally invincible to attack by them. Just requires a lot more hard work to pull off.

Heh, a Sicilian fleet was next to a Byz one. The Byz one had the Crete reinforcements on it, so I attacked it. The Sicilians declared on Byz and joined in. We're building to world war! So... since Sicily is helping... sink the other two fleets at Crete too. I am learning to love allies. Have to use them shamelessly while they are playing nice, since it won't last.

Yeah, good allies are really useful.

I notice you found out one of the aspects when Byzantium got that truce with PS.

With Trusted Alliances, if you go to war, your allies will join in by default, it happens automatically. Likewise, if you have 2 trusted allies, they won't EVER attack each other, (same goes for trusted allies vs. your vassals), even if they are not themselves allied and they hate each others guts. They respect and like you too much to do it.

However this has downsides as it means you can get dragged into your allies wars and they can get truces which end yours, it isn't a free boat ride~;p.

Oh, Egypt did take a rep hit for that back-stab. Probably not enough, considering. Went from VT down to Reliable. Breaking an alliance with an attack should really dump rep.

It actually hits them with a -0.5 rep penalty, do it 4 times and you can go from immaculate down the despicable (thats the worst possible I think). It's just they had very good rep to begin with, so it hurt them less than it might appear to have done.

AI navies in my area are making serious use of fleets to move troops. But they aren't good at protecting them. Two Egyptian fleets sunk with about 15 units total. That will help. Another Byz one hit, but it's lost in the fog. Meanwhile, my invasion fleet headed for Thesalonica got pushed back. Won first engagement, but got hit again, so is back in port for repairs. AI not smart, but it's not doing badly with its fleets on the whole. Environment is just nasty for my enemies with allies all over too. Actually, the big difference is the AI doesn't run for port for repairs if damaged. That means they end up dead versus delayed, which costs them good admirals and good experienced crews.

:yes:, that and the fact that any admiral that is at sea at the end of the turn becomes a ranked one due to the hidden movement enhancing trait, so he can never be combined with an existing fleet. that limits the size of individual AI fleets. But Egypt and Byzantium and Papal States are all set to love sea invasions now when before they weren't. Help them if they get surrounded as they can g by sea to fresh targets. It also accounts for the big PS navy you've noticed.

AI navies in my area are making serious use of fleets to move troops. But they aren't good at protecting them. Two Egyptian fleets sunk with about 15 units total. That will help. Another Byz one hit, but it's lost in the fog. Meanwhile, my invasion fleet headed for Thesalonica got pushed back. Won first engagement, but got hit again, so is back in port for repairs. AI not smart, but it's not doing badly with its fleets on the whole. Environment is just nasty for my enemies with allies all over too. Actually, the big difference is the AI doesn't run for port for repairs if damaged. That means they end up dead versus delayed, which costs them good admirals and good experienced crews.

Thanks, that confirms what I hoped to see, HA whilst very powerful, can't beat everything in sight with few losses.

Okay, I admit it, I'm having fun.

Glad to hear it, whats it like compared to vanilla in that respect then?

The first 30 turns are a bit slow, but I can't say I mind be allowed to execute a plan for a bit. After that the scrambling and the plan B and plan C and plan Z activity kick in.

Yeah, I know what you mean. TBH I think the AI does a better job vs. rebels than in vanilla, but it still needs a fair bit of time to get going.

And alliances mean something, but they don't mean I can relax. Venice or Hungary (and maybe Russia) have to be eying me now. Russia was at Caffa the turn after I got there. They left when I won the siege. But I see the border of Tbilisi is blue now too. We'll see who gets the Mongols, me or them.

Which is what we want. The player should never have it easy, but they shouldn't be punished for carefully cultivating a good alliance.

Seeing AI HB guilds now. In castles, of course. Gaza and Corinth had them. I have had one at Caearea a while too. Hoping for a master there soon. Egypt has a Swordmaker somewhere too. Probably Cairo. TG at Nicaea, which I may keep. Hmm, Byz has Thieves' MG. Don't really want it there. Better place for Merchant Guild. Interesting, no brothel/inn stuff there. So they got it from the "all" bonus, I guess. That's a lot of spies and assassins. Haven't seen many though. I took EG at Antioch, which wasn't bright, really. But have picked up some ancilliaries. I wish forced march worked right. Merchant guild at Iconium. Offers I didn't want elsewhere so far.

Sounds like your getting plenty of offers and interesting ones at that.

Playing as the Byzantines. M/M. Tried to rush early on but really couldn't afford to expand quickly. After spending the time to set up a decent economy I've grabbed the available rebel regions. Venice broke an alliance and we've been at war ever since. A jihad was called on Constantinople but I haven't seen a Turkish army and the Egyptians and moors sued for a ceasefire at reasonable terms. The Hungarians have become a lasting ally but otherwise we're on our own. The Danes recently allied with hungry, perhaps they will ally with me as well.

If you go ask the Danes they should ally with you no problems. Keep your Relations with both at Outstanding, (helps in case your standing takes a hit), and Rep at Trustworthy or above and you should have no issues with them backstabbing.

Be aware the Jihad is still on and those Jihad stack will still attack eventually, Truce or not.

The turks and Venice have allied against me. After some bloody beatings they have somewhat backed off, perhaps rebuilding to attack again. I've been eating up their navies as well. The turks have only engaged in naval warfare and have yet to march on nicea or Smyrna.

So far a blast. Can't wait for the Mongols to show up and open up another front for the turks so I can grab some real estate.

Sounds like it:smash:.

watched Kagemusha, then went to settle the siege of Baghdad. No problem when I played it on the battlescreen. Odds were 5:4 against me on the power meter. Oddly, Egypt won first autoresolve I tried. It was no contest on the battle screen. Only issue is waiting out the stupid timer. There were like 40 enemies alive after I repulsed them at the walls and gate (no siege weapons, just 2 rams, one set of ladders and a tower.) Wall arrows managed to burn nothing. I had no archers. Their force was peasant and militia class except for some cav including mamluk archers. The saracen spears ate them up instantly. But the routed remnants rallied just a bit outside and for some reason the towers stopped firing. But the units on the walls were stuck in combat mode. So I brought them down and put them back into formation and they rested a bit. After I decided the timer was going to take forever and I might completely miss the Mongol invasion, I ran three Saracen units out, charged the riffraff, and routed them and popped the win screen.

I made a screener of the aftermath of the party for kicks. The screenshot is just before I sent the Saracens out.

Trouble with the AI is it never bring enough infantry or builds enough on the spot siege gear. Give it a few catapults and it does fin. But without them it has issues.

I really strongly dislike all horse archers... that are not mine!

:laugh4:

I think chivalry is a little TOO worthless for city management now. What is it, 0.5 growth per 5 points? What was it before? Can we strike a happy medium? I don't have so many generals that I can do more than a few cities full time managed anyway. And only a third or so tend to have high chivalry since I don't stuff jihads with generals that won't make the target on the last turn.

Your probably right, it was the way it was stacking with other stuff that was so OTT, that and some of the growth promoting traits are easier to pick up these days so thats pushing growth pretty hard too and I suspect that not all of it was down to Chiv.

Treasury stable again. Those Byz cities help. Now to take Egypt's on long-term loan. Moving some siege gear into range. The Egyptian navy is mostly under control. Not that they don't slip one through now and then. One landed an invasion on Cyprus...again. Don't think it's much threat. Will try to sneak some archer out though.

Yeah, the Byzantine cities are serious money earners once they get a port or two up.

I won't reply to any of the update stuff as whilst it's useful info (tell me what you can and can't do as Turks and how difficult it is), it's not easy to reply to as theirs only so many comments you can make~;p, however it's still extremly useful IMHO.

vonsch

03-19-2007, 17:00

I won't reply to any of the update stuff as whilst it's useful info (tell me what you can and can't do as Turks and how difficult it is), it's not easy to reply to as theirs only so many comments you can make

I figured that I wouldn't know what you might find useful, so I'd just do some stream-of-consciousess reations and comments. Some triggers questions from you, so I know it's working to a degree.

But it's helping me refine my view of how the AI factions operate too. Writing about it means I think about it more.

Back to it once I do a few other things. I want to see the horde, then I may move to another faction. Unless you have another update coming before long.

Carl

03-19-2007, 18:54

I figured that I wouldn't know what you might find useful, so I'd just do some stream-of-consciousness reations and comments. Some triggers questions from you, so I know it's working to a degree.

But it's helping me refine my view of how the AI factions operate too. Writing about it means I think about it more.

Back to it once I do a few other things. I want to see the horde, then I may move to another faction. Unless you have another update coming before long.

TBH it's all useful, i'm getting the impression for example that the AI is now throwing plenty of decent sized stacks around and is also not throwing so many poor stacks that couldn't hurt you a you.

It's also helping me understand how the AI factions are working too TBH, The AI file isn't like the EDU file for me. When I look at the EDU I just see end effects rather than numbers. The A files is a bit harder to read like that.

I'm looking forward to the Horde as it will really test my new defenses against lots of AI troops, the Mongols actually tend to besiege with 2-3 stacks if they have them to spare from what i hear.

Next update shouldn't be for a few days easy, maybe longer depending on things.

vonsch

03-19-2007, 19:03

Mongols will be interesting. Plan to let them besiege cities and castles to see how they do on the battle screen. They will have good leadership, so shouldn't rout so easily. But I am trying to build smart garrisons too. Question will be how much they attrit the garrison with early stacks, I suspect. Thinking about:

3-4 blocking types, spears mostly, for plugging gaps. 4 archer units, with at least 2 of those Janissaries for the stakes. 1-2 nafflatun. 8-10 total unless that proves badly insufficient. Hoping to have the 8-10 farthest east with those before too much longer. Can make all units now, just not in the right places. But Tbilisi isn't far off the coast of the Black Sea. And Baghdad is coming up to speed on the city-produced stuff too.

I may even try just Janissary archers as garrison once I get a feel for things. Those stakes are helpful against charges.

Of course, since I'm preparing, they will probably hit Russia.

After the forced peace with Byz, they came begging trade rights too. I don't expect the peace to last, but am playing it straight to see what happens next. Constantinople and Corinth are sturdy. I expect any move to be seaborne since the islands and a couple interior coastal cities look easier. I still have the Thesalonica invasion force off its shores, and a full stack of HA hiding at the border.

PS is consistently the richest faction. Doesn't that make it a tempting target?

Turn 59: Gaza falls to a lightning amphibious assault. Eggies standing around Jerusalem again. Alexandria is vulnerable. Cairo has a decent garrison (10 units of decent stuff). Takes two turns to ship catapult to Alexandria from Gaza though. And need more units to garrison a city like that (as opposed to a castle). But suspect I just emascualted Egyptian production. (no more Mamluk archers for you!)

Starting to lose my first generation generals to old age (not counting my starting Sultan, that is, he was the real first generation.) That means I need a jihad to chiv up some younglings. Probably Cairo first. Then once Egypt put down (south), Jerusalem.

Carl

03-19-2007, 19:26

PS is consistently the richest faction. Doesn't that make it a tempting target?

Their m,oney script gives them double what everyone else has as they have a very high upkeep starting army.

vonsch

03-19-2007, 19:47

Their m,oney script gives them double what everyone else has as they have a very high upkeep starting army.

Do they need the extra, with all the income from player bribes?

Heh, turn 60, Egypt sued for peace. So I threw out an offer:

Ceasefire for maps, 500 for 20 turns and Jedda. They bit. And I then gave them trade rights (nice me... I benefit too!) But they still hate me. Curious how long it will last. But I don't mind the time to prepare for Mongols... and Jerusalem is just sitting there.

Carl

03-19-2007, 20:25

Yeah, the base upkeep from starting forces exceeds 10K, I don't know the full amount, but it's about that, and it's not a big force TBH, just very elite. The problem is unless the player gives them a lot of good cities their 2 cities are only worth a littile over 10K fully upgraded anyway, with building added on it becomes very dicey for the Papal States money wise. Especially once a big navy or any extra foot forces. Lastly the amount of money makes the Papal States harder to bribe later on as the income finmially starts getting close to the expenditure.

Bongaroo

03-19-2007, 21:07

dang turks are bribing all my diplomats! Didn't know you could do that. So I spent a turn buying them and few others back! Really was about to hurt me since they were preventing me from slipping hungry some cash to keep them a good ally.

vonsch

03-19-2007, 21:08

Ok, makes sense on PS. They don't seem to be grabbing a lot of regions past Florence. The special nature of PS makes me not want to see them try for global conquest via thier own military.

Yeah, graph shows them a flat line since about turn 10 on territory.

A note, still have 10 alliances active. Still Immaculate. Except for PS (which is perfect), all other relationships are Reasonable. Don't seem to get many points for attacking mutual enemies. Probably should consider something along those lines. Might help AI some too. Not a rep change, but a relationship one with the affected party(s).

Looks like France got gang-banged. I can see Scotland grabbed something from England from the chart, but nothing clear on France. Looks like Spain, Milan, HRE, and Denmark all ganged up. Toulouse is neutral, but probably went that way when someone took out the French royal family in one turn. Or someones.

At turn 60 I hold 22 regions. Jerusalem would put me past 50% and give me both objectives. But the Mongols will be coming soon.

dang turks are bribing all my diplomats! Didn't know you could do that. So I spent a turn buying them and few others back! Really was about to hurt me since they were preventing me from slipping hungry some cash to keep them a good ally.

High skill dips are much harder to bribe. I tend to have few, but get them to 4-5 pretty fast. I love when they bribe my junky ones. Good riddance.

Carl

03-19-2007, 21:41

It's also worth noting that the NatrualDiplomat trait line gives a reduced bribe cost as increased bribe chances don't lower the cost at all.

If they have a Diplomat with 3 Natural Skill you'd be looking at under 5K for most Settlements, but you can double that if they only have 2 Natural Skill and treble it if they only have 1 (the minimum for new Diplomats).

vonsch

03-19-2007, 22:41

Ok, now to rotate my old garrisons to Acre and Gaza to use as storm troops for Jerusalem. Assuming I'm left in peace a bit. Egypt still moving pieces of stacks around my new regions. Byz pulled its force back off Rhodes. It's sitting aboard ship in the Aegean.

My garrison costs will go up mostly because the units aren't going to be free upkeep on the whole. But I think I can afford it. And as time goes forward more will become free as the cities tech up to where they can build them too.

As much as I hate it, personally, I like it from a game challenge sense that they are using navies that way. They aren't SMART about it, but they are more interesting than the usual stuff. Does Denmark do that? And Portugal? I know you curbed Sicily a little (or was it Milan?)

I may have to play with a different style army, once I get my garrisons set up. Infantry based, Ottomans and Jannisaries, with more siege engine support. Try those against the HA factions. Maybe I can hold out for gunpowder too!

Hmm, wonder how many stacks it will take to get Jerusalem to reasonable odds. Three isn't hard. Plus I can throw in an HA army to support it. Need some young generals to get the chivalry boost. Guess I should start stocking some units farther away so they can hire jihad units on the way.

There we go, master theo guild offer in Baghdad finally. Wonder what happens when I capture Jerusalem.

May I suggest increasing the Thieves' Guild threshholds by 50 each? May need 100, but 50 is a good start. That guild pops very often, even with the reduced spies. I mean pops as an offering to ME. That's not counting how ubiquitous they are with AI factions.

It's 1144 and there's a new threat. I'm almost ready, I think. I hope. I need to take out Jerusalem fast, and get that jihad done so I can have another "loaded" in case I need to retake some cities out east. ~;)

Eek, Moors and Eggies joined jihad, and Egypt already has a full stack almost there too. But I have it under seige now with three full stacks. Worried they could "steal" it from me though.

Well, this should be interesting. I have 3:2 odds on Jerusalem and they sallied on me! I still have 2 more full stacks, plus some, on the way. Was just trying to keep them locked up. Probably get junk troops first too. Not my HA. Well, I did want to burn up some old garrison troops! This should do that.

holycow

03-20-2007, 02:04

Hey Carl,

1. province to right of constatntinople can't build forts/towers, is this correctable?

2. and in response to your questions "are byz spears too early" - yes. but i'm playing m/m so not sure if that is reason. What are byz spears supposed to counter aside from obvious cav? the surrounding factions don't have access to a similar stat unit for a while at least i don't think. i was thinking that byz might need byz spears early due to its exposed position and crusading armies marching through it at any time. at this time, turks, hungary, venice are recruiting basic units - p archer, town militia, spear militia, javelinemen

3. the rebel units in settlements while more numerous, are not difficult to defeat, they're routing easily.

4. getting adopt a general window beginning every turn, is this right? so annoying. oh, i don't like to adopt.

5. seems that other factions having a hard time against rebel settlements. by turn 25 English, France, Danes, Rus, Turks, Milan, Venice are still w/ original states. Scots took Caerarvon and are marching towards Danes, Spain took Zaragosa, Hungary took Sofia, Venice tried for the one left of Thessalonicabut were defeated. so at this time, it's looking real easy for bzycause no one else is really expanding much.

6. gaggle of princesses around Hamburg

7. lots of rebel ships from black sea, or is that due to all the rebel settlements there

8. lots more ships from all factions, they seem to congregate around constantinople and corinth.

9. many noble&diplomat missions that reward 4 byz spears, had a stack in only a few turns.

10. no access in desert areas, where is the gold?

11. are the resources tweaked? i haven't compared, but it seems earning a lot more from merchant/resources.

vonsch

03-20-2007, 02:40

Reactions on battle of Jerusalem on the battle screen because at 3:2 I have small chance with autoresolve. Tried an autoresolve for a test and it was ugly. Might manage a win if I save/restored a bunch. But that one was a crishing defeat.

Some screenies to follow.

#1 issue. Massive battle, 1000s on each side with many reinforcements on mine. VERY laggy. And a whole lot of forced computer control. I don't have much performance issue in my usualy field battles, even with 2 stacks on each side. I suspect the computer control is the issue.

Towers most dangerous due to this. Couldn't even tell they were firing due to the lag. Realized I was in range by the casualties I was taking, not anything else.

The troops are no big issue if they are silly and sally. That big exp helps them more inside in the streets. Give me room and I can still rout them (even with poor reinforcement actions). Won on a total rout, not capturing the square. They pursued out of range of the towers when they beat up on my low defense jihad units (got unlucky on which stack I got control of... if it had been the HA it would have been complete slaughter of the defenders). I think that experience makes them overconfident about sallying ~;).

Now that I've played one, I'd pull back farther still so there's room to flank. And so the AI reinforcements MIGHT avoid the tower fire more. But I suspect those coming from other sides skirt the walls stupidly and get shot up. That's the issue with the large activation area. Did you tweak that back some? With a sally the back and sides should not be activated, just the front if the defenders are near enough to the walls.

edits to follow with screenshots.

https://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8020/0012re4.th.jpg (https://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0012re4.jpg)
This was the stack I controlled. Rest ended up AI because things were so laggy and they were so far off, if I was given control I just grouped the units with others on those sides and gave AI control.

https://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8711/0013xs9.th.jpg (https://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0013xs9.jpg)
Stack 2 in play (pure AI control)

https://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5290/0014xa8.th.jpg (https://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0014xa8.jpg)
Stack 3 (I think, but it may not have gotten in. Other two stacks were 1 unit each.)

https://img469.imageshack.us/img469/750/0010xl5.th.jpg (https://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0010xl5.jpg)
Near the surrender. Most of those are reinforcements.

https://img469.imageshack.us/img469/4640/0011rn1.th.jpg (https://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0011rn1.jpg)
The results.

I had 6 stacks (though 3 were placeholders so the Eggies couldn't slip in), but it only actually admitted 5. I think 2 didn't show in the results because they either never got in, or they were disallowed before it actually started, not sure. My big (the stack to SE is the rest of it coming from Gaza after replacements) HA stack didn't get in at all. Probably a good thing. Would have put the general in serious risk skirting the walls. My starting general tried to flank to disrupt their archers and he went from full to 6 before he got into contact. After that he watched from the rear.

If I had known I was going to end up without my HA stack I might have withdrawn. Didn't think I had enough. Figured it would be iffy anyway. Another 2 stacks were incoming (you can see one north, I think, and there's a ship 2 moves out to west). The fort just SW is all units for the siege that just got off the boat. So it would have been almost 6 stacks. But I wanted overkill for an autoresolve. ~;)

That Pole stack has finally wandered back north into Hungary. It's turn 67 and the East is green. Waiting for the Byzzies or Eggies to attack me. Byz is in a war with most of the world (6 countries), so not apt to get lucky there. Eggies are fighting the Moors.

Byz has a stack and a half sitting on my border though. I can see about 2 stacks of Hungarians north at Sophia. Durrazo is stripped. But I said I wouldn't pick fights.

So, how can I sucker them into attacking? ~;) Hmm. maybe some BAD diplomacy. Where's my rotten diplomat?

Turn 68: Crusade on Antioch. Good, was getting bored. Now everyone will hate me! ~;) At least everyone who crusades. No Mongols in sight so far. Probably should build more spy buildings somewhere so I can send one north.

Looking at overall rankings, unusual: 2nd is Milan, 3rd Denmark, 4th Spain, 5th Scotland!

Bucharest is still neutral. Garrison is mostly 3 experience. Sophia is a Hungarian fortress building DCKs. It has a siegeworks, but not seeing any siege engines.

Turn 69: Mongols arrive somewhere. Great, 3 crusader armies on the way too, Spain, Denmark, Milan. Well, I asked for some action! Hehe, so the Pope declares war on all of them. He wuvs me. Poland too. Sinking lots of stray enemy fleets now. Target rich environment for one turn.

https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2140/0021aa3.th.jpg (https://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0021aa3.jpg)
First Mongols east of Yerevan. It would be there. It's the one city in the east that grows slowest, and still hasn't reached stone walls! So... castle it is.

By the way, can have a master and HQ guild, if you capture one.

Turn 70: Poland wants a ceasefire already. Sank 3 of thier fleets immediately last turn. Gave it to them for 1000 per turn for 10 turns and trading rights again. They'll probably crusade anyway. Both my FL and FH are about to croak from old age too, which may leave me with a new one with no authority. When it rains it pours.

PS took Bologna and is besieging Milan. Zagreb is rebel. Looks like Spain has Cordoba and Pamplona, probably Toulouse too, though that might be Milan.

Turn 71: Now Milan wants a ceasefire too. Not gonna get any money from them though, they are bankrupt. Regions all too far away. They seem to own most of what would be France. Was hoping for an island, or something south. No deal. 3 full Mongol stacks east of Tbilisi now too. Semi ready (I think).

https://img490.imageshack.us/img490/6755/0024kl3.th.jpg (https://img490.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0024kl3.jpg)
Turn 72: Mongol scouts moved back to main force after almost reaching Yerevan. It just converted to a castle. Tbilisi is a fortress. Mosul just finished its stone wall and Baghdad has large stone walls. Still need to get those naffatuns, but they have archers (JA and OI) and Saracens to block gaps. Baghdad has ballista towers too. Let's see if the Mongols decide the steppes are more attractive. I'm sure they are better suited to horse archers than these mountains. ~;) Found that out fighting rebels. Only naval action at the moment, but Hungary just besieged Thesalonica after whupping a Byz militia army. For some reason they lack good troops... can't imagine why.

Darned Egypt has a full stack just hovering at Gaza. Attack me! Come on, you know you want to! It's all mercs they hired for the jihad. Another full stack at the border west. I have one waiting on a ship at port there, with a ballista. If they attack, Alexandria falls.

Come on! Someone attack one of my cities! I want to test these defenses! Wimps!

Hungary getting dangerous. Took Zagreb. That will boost its economy. Though not as much as it would or me since it's a castle.

Turn 73: Spain begs for peace. Sheesh, what wimps! More tribute. Newer maps. Now Denmark wants peace. They are all very poor or worse. Totally invested in armies, I'm sure. Yet my power is Supreme. Mwahahahaha. Letting them finance my defense against their crusades. ~;)

Ooo, PS betrayed me. Was down to amiable. Got tired of paying them for boredom. HRE must have joined the crusade too, war. Venice broke alliance with me too. Getting hotter in this seat. But means I can start going after some of them. Rhodes, methinks. Wow, my relationship with PS went to terrible. I did nothing. Wonder what's up. Not that I mind as things stand. Aha, PS is crusading against me. Scum! Time to go on a "sink all the white ships spree!" Lots of good experience for my crews and admirals.

Mongols haven't declared war on me yet. The three full stacks are at Tbilisi. Scouts MIA. Don't seem to have gone north.

Turn 74:

PS is up to rank #4. I think you've given it too much power. It should get pushed around by the Catholic factions. It's taken Milan and Genoa now, so it controls all of northern Italy except Venice. That's 4 large cities and a huge (Rome). No wonder it's rich. It doesn't build fast, but it's political edge with being able to excommunicate its enemies, makes it pretty powerful.

See 4 Mongol stacks again. Looks like the two part stacks merged. And one was probably hidden in the trees. One were towards Treb, the others are back between Tbilisi and Yerevan.

Venice landed on Iraklion. No attack yet. Tempting. We're neutral since they cancelled the alliance. Looks like 6 peasant units ~;). Four at least.

HRE crusade arrives in Constantinople next turn. Don't see PS one yet. Was at venice.

Looks like the Cairo to Jedda sea trade does work. Just haven't seen any from Donogla to date.

Carl

03-20-2007, 14:39

Alright, lots to answer for:smash:.

1. province to right of Constantinople can't build forts/towers, is this correctable?

Not really, you can build them in some places mostly near the Turkish Border, but that whole province is a pain round the town itself.

2. and in response to your questions "are byz spears too early" - yes. but i'm playing m/m so not sure if that is reason. What are byz spears supposed to counter aside from obvious Cav? the surrounding factions don't have access to a similar stat unit for a while at least i don't think. i was thinking that byz might need byz spears early due to its exposed position and crusading armies marching through it at any time. at this time, turks, Hungary, Venice are recruiting basic units - p archer, town militia, spear militia, javelinemen

Just t deal with the last complaint first, Venice and most western factions are able to build Sergeant spearmen off the bat and Armored Sergeants within 3 turns, Italian Spear Militia are also very similar.

On the other hand they are still very early for such a powerful unit, so In was afraid they'd be too early. TBH the real issue is that Byzantium lacks any kind of decent foot based counter to enemy heavy Cav, (which is what Armored Sergeants are), this heavily reduces the effectiveness of their foot troops, making them very dependent on their HA and especially their Vardorti, it also renders a vast number of unique Byzantine units (including Dismounted Lancers, Byzantine Spearmen, Dismounted Latikon, Byzantine Infantry, and their signature unit Vargarian Guard pointless). Add to that the melee ability of Vardorti and most of the Byzantine Heavy Cav becomes of questionable use too.

The basic Idea was to give them something similar to Armored sergeants so they could resist heavy Cav and make it a bit more missile resistant to help against the HA/Heavy Cav mix's of the east.

In effect it's job is to make as difficult as possible the enemy mounted units jobs.

I can swap them with Dismounted Byzantine Lancers if that will help out.

3. the rebel units in settlements while more numerous, are not difficult to defeat, they're routing easily.

You'll find much the same can be said for your own troops, Morale is now lower and as a result a big Morale shock could easily rout a couple of your units and if your general isn't around to steady the line or dies at that moment your entire army could chain rout on the spot.

I'd also hope your not finding yourself able to use the same forces you did before to beat the rebels, or if you are thats it's a much bigger challenge. How are you fighting your battles and what rebels have you taken as any kind of castle should give you issues. Palisade walls never do as much damage though by comparison as the towers are too spread out. So they should be easier.

4. getting adopt a general window beginning every turn, is this right? so annoying. oh, i don't like to adopt.

Thats just the way Byzantium works, get enough kids and it'll go away.

5. seems that other factions having a hard time against rebel settlements. by turn 25 English, France, Danes, Rus, Turks, Milan, Venice are still w/ original states. Scots took Caerarvon and are marching towards Danes, Spain took Zaragoza, Hungary took Sofia, Venice tried for the one left of Thessalonicabut were defeated. so at this time, it's looking real easy for because no one else is really expanding much.

They're going very slow. France, Sicily, England and Portugal Normally freeze, but the Danes are normally big expanders to say nothing of Milan and Venice and Rus. Venice does normally get the province it failed on first try though so that doesn't help them.

If you grabbed Trebizond from the before the Turks they do tend to freeze up on you for a while, they seem to come unstuck sometimes though too.

What difficulty are you playing at?

6. gaggle of princesses around Hamburg

Pretty common, the Danes have 2 ready to come of age at the start plus 1 in the Field and the English, Spanish, and Milan Princesses tend to drift their too.

7. lots of rebel ships from black sea, or is that due to all the rebel settlements there

I'm not sure TBH, I would guess so though.

9. many noble&diplomat missions that reward 4 byz spears, had a stack in only a few turns.

That IS an issue.

10. no access in desert areas, where is the gold?

It hasn't moved, and Timbuktu should still be the same as it always was.

11. are the resources tweaked? i haven't compared, but it seems earning a lot more from merchant/resources.

:yes:, 5 times higher income now, but much lower acquisition chances.

Thnx Vonsch. Sounds like everything just went up in the air on you and your trying to catch it all coming down.

What DID you make of the Towers at Jerusalem, where they tough, or pretty poor?

PS took Bologna and is besieging Milan. Zagreb is rebel. Looks like Spain has Cordoba and Pamplona, probably Toulouse too, though that might be Milan.

The PS has a VERY Strong starting army, (it's normally 1st for the first 15 turns or so), to help make it a tough nut for Byzantium or HRE to crack, (both need Rome as part of their victory conditions), Right now it's nowhere near the challenge Jerusalem is as you haven't got Mongols, Tirmurds, and pretty much every other single faction trying to grab it off you. However this means if the PS gets in a war it has a very strong army to attack the enemy with and it takes a bit of wearing down.

PS is up to rank #4. I think you've given it too much power. It should get pushed around by the Catholic factions. It's taken Milan and Genoa now, so it controls all of northern Italy except Venice.

Thats normal, the PS will treat anyone it's at war with the same as every other country. When it's not at war the catholics can push it round. but get into a war wit it and it will push you around. It's got a good starting army so it has few issues with giving Milan a clout round the head initially and Rome, Milan and Genoa are all big pop cities with lots of income when fully developed.

That means the papal sates is usually in the top 5 for military, population, and wealth if it grabs Genoa and Milan.

however it will only grab territory if it ends up at war. Most Catholics won't deliberately start a war due to it's big military strength.

vonsch

03-20-2007, 17:19

What DID you make of the Towers at Jerusalem, where they tough, or pretty poor?

I would guess that at least half my casualities were from the towers.

The PS has a VERY Strong starting army, (it's normally 1st for the first 15 turns or so), to help make it a tough nut for Byzantium or HRE to crack, (both need Rome as part of their victory conditions), Right now it's nowhere near the challenge Jerusalem is as you haven't got Mongols, Tirmurds, and pretty much every other single faction trying to grab it off you. However this means if the PS gets in a war it has a very strong army to attack the enemy with and it takes a bit of wearing down.

I understand. But I think that this is a problem when combined with the diplomacy system. PS is getting into LOTS of wars due to alliances with the player. As a result, it's expansive. It's stepping outside its intended role, which is as spoiler and wild for the Catholic player, and becoming a threat in itself. The Catholic player can easily end up in the position of having to attack the Pope to meet victory conditions. That's my concern. It's not a problem for non-Catholics. We just crush him. He's just a silly guy in a big hat.

Carl

03-20-2007, 19:04

I would guess that at least half my causalities were from the towers.

Balanced?

Regarding your activation point. The range was cut by a third but it's fairly common for the AI to send a unit to activate the towers once you drift into range.

I understand. But I think that this is a problem when combined with the diplomacy system. PS is getting into LOTS of wars due to alliances with the player. As a result, it's expansive. It's stepping outside its intended role, which is as spoiler and wild for the Catholic player, and becoming a threat in itself. The Catholic player can easily end up in the position of having to attack the Pope to meet victory conditions. That's my concern. It's not a problem for non-Catholics. We just crush him. He's just a silly guy in a big hat.

Whilst i don't want the catholics to have to attack the pope to win, (except HRE who has no choice), at the same time I like to see him punish wayward catholics. I think you got that bit though.

The easiest solution would be to limit his trusted alliances only to not attacking Vassals of his good allies.

vonsch

03-20-2007, 19:49

Balanced?

I don't think so. But my reasons are probably not what you would expect.

I do think the effects on the battle screen feel a bit more realistic. Sieged definitely were not bloody enough when compared to history. I also preferred the MTW (or was is STW?) losses to both sides while in the siege state. That would discourage waiting out the siege and forcing a sally more.

The reasons I don't think it's balanced relate to the overall strategic situation. Having the results of playing out the battle versus autoresolving so different means the player gets to make a choice that the AI doesn't. And any player with an iota of sense will work that. (And we'll rationalize it!)

For example, aside from testing, I will never play out storming a stone wall or higher on the battle screen. Why? The wall/tower fire results in considerably more losses to me than the autoresolve. And my chances of success are lower, except in VERY limited situations (like where my spies open the gates, and I have fast cav, AND the garrison is very few units). But I can force the AI to play my way when the roles are reversed. Thus I expect the Mongols to be at a disadvantage if I hide behind my walls. (As they should be, admittedly... so not entirely a bad thing there.)

But on defense I will always play out the battle tactically if I have wooden walls or better. I'm a better general than the AI (like that's hard!)

So the player gains more advantage than the AI does.

I LIKE the feel. If I didn't suffer so much of a performance hit in large siege battles, I might play out more for the heck of it. I do, so that's another disincentive. Walls and their defenses become real obstacles. And I don't mind the logistics of having to plan large attacks. The AI is wierd about what it pulls into a storming from player stacks around the city, so that's also a bit of an issue. But that doesn't affect autoresolve as much, because the walls aren't fully factored in; I don't need as much mass to tackle the tough ones.

I do need to play out more to see how that activation range is working though. The AI didn't hold back as far as I could tell. Everything came out at me. So there was nothign inside to activate, which means the activation was coming from outside. But I can't tell if those reinforcements were getting hit (they were under AI control) before they got the the front side. It's possible that they were not. The front side was reasonable (ouch!) though it doesn't make a lot of sense for the units outside to be controlling the walls... but then the walls really should have there own organic defenses, I'd say... or the unit should have to be ON the wall and the AI smart enough to keep them there until things get really grave. But that's wishing for things we can't control well.

As far as the Pope situation goes... part of the issue is the Muslim/Orthodox/PS interactions. IMO there should be a decay of these relations (the normalization thing) every turn. That would have made the problem less obvious, at least. The Muslim decay should be 2x the Orthodox, and the "normal" state should be a bit higher for Orthodox too. While they were not catholic, they were mostly seen as "Christian," just misguided. Muslims were infidels, followers of a false prophet. Enemies of the true faith. It should be mighty unusual for the Pope to side with Muslims over Christians. Only in cases where the Christians were excommed or way up on the Papal *%#& list.

If the player is Christian (and to a lesser degree Orthodox), the problem isn't as egregious. The Pope can take the player's side if the player has pumped the relationship to very high. And the increase in bribing cost will help some too.

But I'd still go for trimming the Pope's temporal power a bit somehow. I think he's better off without the drive to a large navy. That way expansion is limited to gifting of regions or direct invasions. He could still dominate Italy (which did happen on occasion), but not so easily invade farther afield (which I haven't seen in my game, but which I have seen in an earlier one when he invaded Valencia).

I do like the change to navies to encourage more smaller fleets rather than monster ones. Took getting used to, but once I did I decided it works well. We end up with more, but better, small fleets. Favors the player a little for the usual reasons, but also spreads a wider AI faction net of fleets which increases the risk of SOME contact with player invasions. And I love the added twist of more alliance action on the seas that has resulted. The player has to be careful (several of my losses were due to not paying attention, or not seeing due to FOW, to enemy-allied fleets), but can also use it to advantage.

And how are we gonna fix Sicily? I think Tunis has to be nerfed back to wimp levels. It's not IMO a major player target unless the player is local to it. So Sicily can grab it early, and race the player if the player is Milan, Venice, or the Moors. Not many other strategic situations (that I've seen so far) encourage or allow the player to zip to Tunis early.

France and England need Rennes nerfed back. The first to get there may dominate the other, but at least one is in play of the two.

Portugal... I think it's a lost case as an AI faction except in rare situations. It's not an easy faction for the player. It's considerably more challenging than Spain or the Moors. Leave it hard for the player, and a rare surprise as AI. But do split the royals between the two regions. At least then it's not such an easy first 5 turn takedown.

Scotland and Russia are big success stories, I think.

Milan seems ok even with the de-emphasis on invasions. It has France and HRE to pick on. Not sure about Venice. Zagreb may need a dial-back too. Maybe try 1/3 less garrison. The player is going to grab that one if Hungary, no matter what the garrison. But Venice is alive and kicking in my game. It did grab Rhodes.

holycow

03-20-2007, 19:57

in reply,

that province Nicaea? seems to suck up movement points as well, why do some provinces have this issue?

I had thought that byz spears might be foil to mailed knights, but even tmilitias can stand up to them - they'll get chewed up though.

peasants and tmilitas are routing a lot more readily, but I had a byz spear get grounded down to 1 guy and he still on the field.

playing at m/m and i think a reason why so easy at this point is that rebel settlements are lower city/castle. i didn't assault walls, but beseiged them until final turn and they rushed out to attack. that is an easy battle. read comment below re first castle assault, i didn't have time to wait as turk declared war and moving w/a stack on Nicaea and needed to hurry up and either abandon seige or assault castle directly.

there were ~ 8 princess around hamburg, rus, spain, france, german, portugal, hung, and eventually eng & milan. - must be those danish guys:laugh4:

in the beginning when you send out your diplomat for trade i got a diplomat mission almost beginning every turn as the diplomat approached each new faction's city. so especially around milan, venice, florence, - all within 1 turn travel from each other, so in 4 turns had 16 byz spears in constantinople. downside - it made a dent in $$flow real fast.

the towers are alot more effective, love it!! always thought the towers in vanilla and prev TW were too puny, ineffective. found out the hard way and the previous rebel settlements have been palisades or the beginning castle, so that's why it was so easy to take them. Finally attacked a castle - the province to the right of Treb ?Tblisi? i had a full stack of 4 treb arch, 4 tmilitias, 2 spear militia, rest byz spears. built 3 rams, 4 ladders, 3 towers, the rebel castle had 2 turk arch & 2 spear militia,

i spread out my seige equip around the castle and tried to run them up all at the same time - my entire attack force, except for 1 ladder and 1 tower got demolished 1/2 way to the wall from the archers and towers. even the surviving ladder and tower had only 1/2 their number when the equip reached the wall. it seemed that the defending ai was running the defenders from wall to wall whereever an equip was approaching and not destroyed - alright!!, if that was a mod- 2 thumbs up!! definitly will have to bring catapults next time, got to take out those towers next time.

vonsch

03-20-2007, 20:44

Turn 76: Okay, Mongols are just milling about still. Ugh, mad Crown Prince. Need to find him a battle to get killed in. FH died of old age. Sultan is close too. Was hoping to let him die in battle against this crusade.

About to take out the HRE crusade. Smacked it back into Thesalonica last turn. So now I'm hated by all Catholics. Oh well. The honeymoon is over. Still immaculate though. I am allowed to defend myself from a rep standpoint. That's good.

My skill 10 merchant is gobbling up everything under 5 skill around Constantinople. And more keep coming as a result. The Ai never learns. ~;)

Hungarians coming back for second try at Thesalonica. They SHOULD succeed.

Thinking about taking Rhodes from Venice. Curious about the hit to my rep if I do. They are neutral. And they still have a stack of peasants sitting on Crete that I would like to remove.

Turn 77: Three crusades in or near Constantinople. None look very impressive.

HRE engaged at the walls of Constantinople, but in a night attack with HA, so not pulling the garrison. Have to keep it semi-fair. Heh, had to wait for a more moonlit night there, first was just too dark.

The HRE crusade is no more. Two escaped. Released 9 prisoners. Crusader junk units just stand zero chance against horse archers.

Dane crusade is better. A couple merc spears and some heavy infantry types. The cav is light too, so that means I get run around more. But it's 2/3 stack, and the units are not up to strength.

If PS is same as when I saw it in Venice, it's junk units too.

Wish the Mongols would attack. Wonder if I get a rep hit for attacking them. Are they like rebels?

Note for next game:

What's the fix for siege engineers? I'll put it into my file for now. And if anything else easy that you want pre-tested, can add those too. My Turks are pretty solidly set at the moment, so may cut loose and see if I can hit a victory today.

vonsch

03-20-2007, 20:50

that province Nicaea? seems to suck up movement points as well, why do some provinces have this issue?

Rivers? Ridges? Does it have paved roads? You can't move through it in anything like a straight line.

in the beginning when you send out your diplomat for trade i got a diplomat mission almost beginning every turn as the diplomat approached each new faction's city. so especially around milan, venice, florence, - all within 1 turn travel from each other, so in 4 turns had 16 byz spears in constantinople. downside - it made a dent in $$flow real fast.

Those missions are pretty normal game behavior, it's nothing Carl has changed. I get my princesses and diplomats out early, both to get trade rights with everyone (and alliances) and to take advantage of those missions. I think having a diplomat close to a new faction triggers it once your last mission is done.

i spread out my seige equip around the castle and tried to run them up all at the same time - my entire attack force, except for 1 ladder and 1 tower got demolished 1/2 way to the wall from the archers and towers. even the surviving ladder and tower had only 1/2 their number when the equip reached the wall. it seemed that the defending ai was running the defenders from wall to wall whereever an equip was approaching and not destroyed - alright!!, if that was a mod- 2 thumbs up!! definitly will have to bring catapults next time, got to take out those towers next time.

Yep. I agree the seiges feel more real. Also, it pays to focus on one wall to avoid letting more towers shoot you up, have to move fast and overwhelm one segment... assuming the garrison is beatable that way. Those towers HURT.

Carl

03-20-2007, 21:14

What's the fix for siege engineers? I'll put it into my file for now. And if anything else easy that you want pre-tested, can add those too. My Turks are pretty solidly set at the moment, so may cut loose and see if I can hit a victory today.

Find the set of 4 triggers for it. They each have a different building listed as the condition. Remove those triggers that do no use C_catapult_range or C_Siege_Works as a Trigger.

the towers are a lot more effective, love it!! always thought the towers in vanilla and prev TW were too puny, ineffective. found out the hard way and the previous rebel settlements have been palisades or the beginning castle, so that's why it was so easy to take them. Finally attacked a castle - the province to the right of Treb ?Tblisi? i had a full stack of 4 treb arch, 4 tmilitias, 2 spear militia, rest byz spears. built 3 rams, 4 ladders, 3 towers, the rebel castle had 2 turk arch & 2 spear militia,

i spread out my seige equip around the castle and tried to run them up all at the same time - my entire attack force, except for 1 ladder and 1 tower got demolished 1/2 way to the wall from the archers and towers. even the surviving ladder and tower had only 1/2 their number when the equip reached the wall. it seemed that the defending ai was running the defenders from wall to wall wherever an equip was approaching and not destroyed - alright!!, if that was a mod- 2 thumbs up!! definitely will have to bring catapults next time, got to take out those towers next time.

Glad you liked em, I'm surprised by just how many people like the new Towers, I expected them to be my biggest sticking point.

Yep. I agree the sieges feel more real. Also, it pays to focus on one wall to avoid letting more towers shoot you up, have to move fast and overwhelm one segment... assuming the garrison is beatable that way

Definitely concentrate on one area, the fewer the towers that can fire at you the better and have as much siege gear as you can actually man, and build spare ladders if possible beyond that in case all your towers and rams go up.

Those towers HURT.

:evillaugh4:

Thinking about taking Rhodes from Venice. Curious about the hit to my rep if I do. They are neutral. And they still have a stack of peasants sitting on Crete that I would like to remove.

You'll take small hit for starting a war, trespassing on their territory and for grabbing and besieges a settlement, but I think that if Venice has a low enough rep it will not be as bad, i'm not sure.

As far as the Pope situation goes... part of the issue is the Muslim/Orthodox/PS interactions. IMO there should be a decay of these relations (the normalization thing) every turn. That would have made the problem less obvious, at least. The Muslim decay should be 2x the Orthodox, and the "normal" state should be a bit higher for Orthodox too. While they were not catholic, they were mostly seen as "Christian," just misguided. Muslims were infidels, followers of a false prophet. Enemies of the true faith. It should be mighty unusual for the Pope to side with Muslims over Christians. Only in cases where the Christians were excommed or way up on the Papal *%#& list.

If the player is Christian (and to a lesser degree Orthodox), the problem isn't as egregious. The Pope can take the player's side if the player has pumped the relationship to very high. And the increase in bribing cost will help some too.

But I'd still go for trimming the Pope's temporal power a bit somehow. I think he's better off without the drive to a large navy. That way expansion is limited to gifting of regions or direct invasions. He could still dominate Italy (which did happen on occasion), but not so easily invade farther afield (which I haven't seen in my game, but which I have seen in an earlier one when he invaded Valencia).

Agree with the lot, When I said bad boy catholics i meant Excommed ones and those that attack the Papal_States directly. i went for the navel invasions option so they could more easily join crusades and cause trouble for other factions, plus I hoped they'd attack the offshore islands early on, give the PS a bit more muscle and avoid a big money script. Didn't work though.

And how are we gonna fix Sicily? I think Tunis has to be nerfed back to wimp levels. It's not IMO a major player target unless the player is local to it. So Sicily can grab it early, and race the player if the player is Milan, Venice, or the Moors. Not many other strategic situations (that I've seen so far) encourage or allow the player to zip to Tunis early.

France and England need Rennes nerfed back. The first to get there may dominate the other, but at least one is in play of the two.

Portugal... I think it's a lost case as an AI faction except in rare situations. It's not an easy faction for the player. It's considerably more challenging than Spain or the Moors. Leave it hard for the player, and a rare surprise as AI. But do split the royals between the two regions. At least then it's not such an easy first 5 turn takedown.

Scotland and Russia are big success stories, I think.

Milan seems OK even with the de-emphasis on invasions. It has France and HRE to pick on. Not sure about Venice. Zagreb may need a dial-back too. Maybe try 1/3 less garrison. The player is going to grab that one if Hungary, no matter what the garrison. But Venice is alive and kicking in my game. It did grab Rhodes.

I agree Venice is awkward and I've dialed down a number of Garrison already although it isn't encouraging France to move for some reason. not sure why yet. AM working on it.

I don't think so. But my reasons are probably not what you would expect.

I do think the effects on the battle screen feel a bit more realistic. Sieged definitely were not bloody enough when compared to history. I also preferred the MTW (or was is STW?) losses to both sides while in the siege state. That would discourage waiting out the siege and forcing a sally more.

The reasons I don't think it's balanced relate to the overall strategic situation. Having the results of playing out the battle versus autoresolving so different means the player gets to make a choice that the AI doesn't. And any player with an iota of sense will work that. (And we'll rationalize it!)

For example, aside from testing, I will never play out storming a stone wall or higher on the battle screen. Why? The wall/tower fire results in considerably more losses to me than the autoresolve. And my chances of success are lower, except in VERY limited situations (like where my spies open the gates, and I have fast cav, AND the garrison is very few units). But I can force the AI to play my way when the roles are reversed. Thus I expect the Mongols to be at a disadvantage if I hide behind my walls. (As they should be, admittedly... so not entirely a bad thing there.)

But on defense I will always play out the battle tactically if I have wooden walls or better. I'm a better general than the AI (like that's hard!)

So the player gains more advantage than the AI does.

I LIKE the feel. If I didn't suffer so much of a performance hit in large siege battles, I might play out more for the heck of it. I do, so that's another disincentive. Walls and their defenses become real obstacles. And I don't mind the logistics of having to plan large attacks. The AI is wierd about what it pulls into a storming from player stacks around the city, so that's also a bit of an issue. But that doesn't affect autoresolve as much, because the walls aren't fully factored in; I don't need as much mass to tackle the tough ones.

I can understand the feeling, I'd love it if CA would fix the damm bug as it would make this so easy. If the defenses worked in auto then I'd bet the default rebel garrisons would be enough TBH. On the other hand cutting the tower really removes one of the big obstacles to blitzin and brings back the silly 2 ladders and a ram situations. Right now if you auto-resolve you might lose less but it will still cost. Before it was stupidlly easy to tackle settelments auto-resolve couldn't and it was largely down to the ease with which you can get seige gear to the walls. Once the gates down and towers/ladfders are pouring men onto the walls you can ushually win.

vonsch

03-20-2007, 21:44

Carl

03-20-2007, 21:52

There is a difference in casualties between autoresolve and battle screen storming. The towers guarantee high losses in the latter. In the former I find I can storm with minimal losses if I overwhelme the garrison at least 5:2. I mean losses in the low 2-digit numbers.

I now that, what I was pointing out was that in those situation where auto-resolve won't do it their where times (if the odds where really close), where a player on the battle map could win where auto-resolve couldn't You did exactly that with Jerusalem in fact although with great difficulty and mostly by staying out of tower range as much as possible. With the old towers it was worse as just a ram and a couple of ladders could punch the enemy back to the square.

On the other Hand I agree with the new towers, unless you have overwhelming numbers superiority your going to be unable t win and even then it's going to be mass losses.

I DO understand what your saying, but am lothe to change back because A) I expect CA to fix it weather this patch or next patch, B) it prevents the silly I ram and two ladders trick, and C) a number of players almost always insist on the batlemap, many of those are blitzer as in vanilla it tends to be better to fight a battle out, even a siege as you can then decide to sacrifice your weakest cannon fodder.

In fact in that respect it slows blitzer more than us auto-resolving slower expanders.

vonsch

03-20-2007, 22:36

Took Rhodes while still remaining at Immaculate rep. But Hungary did cancel my alliance with them. They were allied with Venice.

Hungary and Venice have Byz on the ropes. If Byz can retake Durazzo (Venitian, atm), which it can if it tries, I will take Thesalonica if I can beat Hungary and try to make a vassal of Byz. Last Hungarian stack beaten off again. A loose Byz stack lifted the siege. That stack is near Durazzo now.

Meanwhile, the Mongols roam. They are heading west across Turkey, nearing Caesarea now. I have an HA stack shadowing them, but they are all night fighters, so can't catch one stack solo to attack. But probably better to leave them neutral until they pick a fight. Less devastation.

I'm picking fights with neutrals now. Alexandria is next. Think I will try to make a vassal of Egypt too. Assuming Tunis holds against the Moors.

If the Mongols are just going to wander, I may as well push for my region count. Corinth is a decent jumpoff point to invade Italy.

As far as your reply on the towers issue goes, yeah, a patch to fix autoresolve of sieges to take into account the walls would make a huge difference. Maybe too huge. Then I might want the walls dialed back a bit. ~;) Or maybe I'd learn to storm better.

I think that, and your walls, would make "turtling" not only viable, but possibly necessary.

Hmm, took Alexandria same turn (1 unit garrison). Still Immaculate. Was neutral to Egypt. Is this right? I only have 3 allies at this point. Not getting much positive help there. I am at war with 3 also. So, that's 2 invasions, 3 battles, and 2 settlement grabs.

Heh, lets see if I can defend it. The stack I took it with is ex-jihadis with a few archers (2 turk & 2 peasant) and some milita spears. I see two full Egyptian armies and the garrison at Cairo isn't bad. Should stir things up.

Turn 80 : HRE gone. Wonder who did that. Egypt went for Gaza (good luck). It's got 20 units in there at the moment, plus it's a citadel. Let them focus there. I'll try to backdoor Cairo from Alexandria. They are stripping garrison units. The Eggies don't have any siege engines along, just rams and the usual. Dream on, Pharoah!

I let the two crusades through the straits to see how they fare against Antioch. And to keep the "neutral" status for the moment. I see a Milanese one inbound now too. The PS one is pretty decent. Some Papal Guards, pavise xbows, Italian militia, Frankish knights, crusader sergeants and a cross. But it's one stack. If they wait for all three to arrive, it might be interesting. The Danish one isn't much so far. Might hire more though. Ooo, Spanish full stack too. Hmm, maybe I should thin them out. Heh, Spanish King and two other generals too. Time to do some culling.

Mongols moving south to Edessa now.

Turn 81; Hah! First time for gunpowder for me. Meanwhile, Egypt bringing up second full stack to tackle Gaza. Heh, I can build cannon towers. But not in time to test on the Eggies. So, Cairo fell to another lightning thrust. But they have 3.5 stacks in sight in the area, so should be some nice siege action. Or they'll sue for peace.

Hmm, maybe the rep drop is at the start of the next turn. Down to Very Trustworthy now. But I also called a jihad on Byz, and am about to take Thes. Byz is no more. And their armies are rebels blocking the pass to Durazzo for now. Flank protection.

Mongols bypassed Edessa, Aleppo next on their line of march. Be funny if they go into it with the crusaders at Antioch.

Turn 82: Mongols declared war, but between Aleppo and Antioch. Not besieging or attacking.

And Cairo under siege now too. Egypt seems reluctant to storm. So... I'll besiege Dongola with half HA stack and see what they do.

Spanish and Milanese crusades stalled at straights. I'm blocking the passage. They could hire ships... Or attack Constantinople! Meanwhile, PS and Danes sitting outside Antioch. No siege, no declarations. I'm still at Very Trustworthy. Okay, 1:2 odds on Milanese crusade. It's my 62 year old Sultan, so he can afford to shoot them up and withdraw. Yep, they were heavy on knights, so ran out of arrows fast. Lost one unit. Got trapped by about 3 crusader knights. Killed the general though. But I lost 135 to their 395.

Turn 83: Heh, Milan wants peace. Hmm. That crusade army eliminated. My rep is immaculate again. I guess agreeing to peace may be what's keeping my rep high. I would expect killing off Byz to be a fairly large hit though. Now Hungary wants war. Lots of heretics and witches turning up. Must be the season.

Definitely a party at Antioch. Mongols and two crusader armies, but no one attacking so far. If they ally, it's trouble.

Sent my home HA army to lift siege of Gaza since Eggies looked like they were willing to starve me out. And want those forces free for Antioch. Messy but effective. Wiped out that Eggies army. Gaza is secure for the moment.

Put Dongola under siege to try to pull off the Cairo army so my main HA force can head north again.

Down to Trustworthy rep. ~;) They can trust me! As long as they are allied to me. Not my fault they break alliances.

Turn 84: Worked! Cairo siege lifted. Not that they can help Dongola in time. That will leave the Eggies with Triploi, unless they've gone farther into Moorland.

Sultan finally died. Darn, he was 10 stars... 10 everything. His last battle was the disruption of the Milanese crusade. New Sultan is mad. Maybe he will die at Dongola. 5:2 odds, autoresolve clear victory.

Hey, looks like Dongola port IS working. I wonder why I got zero sea trade last game there. I held all 3 ports in Red Sea then too.

Naval action has cooled a lot.

Still no action at Antioch. I'm putting together a force to throw at them from outside. JA, OI, some siege gear, dismounted sipahi lancers and some naffatun. If they get rolled over, no big deal. Just looking to thin out the party there. None of them allied, at least.

holycow

03-21-2007, 03:20

Questions: What is the ram & 2 ladder trick?

Just to weigh in w/ my 2 bits re seige & autoresolve:

This is just a game and the whole point is to have fun or to play in a fashion that is fun to you. So if you like or need to autoresolve wether to get around fps drop issue or strategic or whatever, then do so. However, in my opinion, the whole point of the TW series, is to take the units out onto the map, field or city, and put them through their paces. Otherwise, to autroresolve, I might as well be playing Civilization. Which honestly, wish someone would combine these 2 games. What I really like about TW is the moddability, if you don't like it - change it or install some mod that is to your preference. Sorry bout the rant, and back to the what vonsch was saying, I disagree that people will prefer autoresolve due to higher causaties. I think the towers/walls are just about right, and if anything I think seiges should be a heck of a lot harder and casualties much higher for the attacker. It kinda sucked to see my 4 town militias get pin cushioned down to 5 guys - and they didn't even make it to the wall, but it was great for total gameplay, tactical and strategic. Ceasar fought off ~300,000, who did not have seige equipmetn, with only 40,000 because he was behind defensive palisade and traps. If I had my way or if it were at all possible, I'd also add caltrops, stakes, traps, moats, and other obstacles to impede attackers - for a fee of course. Make these a buildable defensive improvement, like the ballista/cannon tower.

My issues w/ this game in its vanilla, not this mod, is that past a certain point, I would say past 15-20 settlements, it was just too easy and boring to keep recruiting hordes of units and blitz through settlements. I think making cities/castles much harder to take, a much more interesting game. And some people might turtle, but it then opens up the game to other strategies, cause you can only turtle for so long before it becomes boring.

vonsch

03-21-2007, 07:32

I was getting worried that the AI wasn't going to build siege gear at all. But the Eggies just brought a cat to Cairo. And I saw them with some outside Dongola earlier, now that I think about it.

Been using some myself in field battles. I prefer Janissary Archers. ~;)

The Naffatuns a quite good too. I toasted a general with one.

Lots of big battles for now. Egyptians not beaten down yet. They still had some armies in Tripoli that I'm wearing down. About to see Hungary and Venice invade Greece, I think. Killed off the crusade. Mongols still roaming, leaving devastation in their wake now. While fending off all these siege attempts, trying to put together a couple HA armies to tag team the Mongols. And an invasion force to throw at some Venetian rear area cities to curb their attacks.

Saw corsica still rebel. Wouldn't mind grabbing that as a forward base to hit Italy. But better to grab a developed city and castle. Replacements.

At war with 7 factions at the moment. But some are remote and not really fighting. Leftovers from crushing the crusade.

Heh, the Mongols finally got aggressive, after my crusade crushing force was battered (but fortunately standing on a bridge). Two heroic victories in a row, but not sure how many more I can survive. The stakes are lifesavers even if I can't place them in the road.

Wow, they backed off. Two full stacks left. And I would have killed at least one more if they'd come on, though my defenders might have all died.

I think I overprepared for the Mongols. They are afraid of my walls. Smart barbarians! They do have nice horse archers though. Very nice.

Carl

03-21-2007, 13:15

vonsch

03-21-2007, 17:51

Hey guys. Sorry for not doing much replying yesterday. I've got a bad cold and sore throat ATM so I wasn't feeling up to replying much and was in bed a good 2 hours early anyway.

I may be like this for a few days so if i seem to have disappeared, hang in their, i'm just taking time of I'll~:(.

First, I'm glad to hear that your enjoying yourself enough to go all the way to Gunpowder. Do you like the recruitment changes a lot now you had chance to experience them for a while?

Second, I'm pretty sure Rep hit effects don't kick in till the end of the turn.

Third, I'd say i'm not giving the AI enough siege equipment, they don't build any nearly now so it sounds like a slight increase in availability might be in order. Your thoughts?

Fourth, damm Mongols, they do that sometimes, get just stuck their not attacking. It's annoying to hear about TBH. I'll see if i can't figure out whats causing it, or otherwise try to correct it.

Fifth, sounds lie your encountering a lot more big armies than you used to, what do you make of that?

Ick, cold. Get well. I dodged it this winter. (knocks on wood)

1) I think the changes overall are good.

2) I think you'[re right on the rep hit. Seems to kick in the next turn and doesn't change during the turn, unlike replationship changes from interactions in diplomacy. But I think things tend a little too positive at the moment. The bribing changes aren't the issue. I only really bribed PS much. I think tweaking the PS effect back might be all that's needed, not general brinbes. Not enough gold to keep everyone bribed. But non-Catholics do need some sort of faster decay with the Pope since they dodge the Catholic-on-Catholic effects and mission effects.

3) I'm seeing more now, but the first 70 turns or so I saw little. I'm at turn 90. What might work is adding them back into cities later in the tree. You can do more than one per tier if needed. I see Venice with about 5 near Durazzo now. They are gonna need them to have any chance on my walls. Even then hurting my towers much will be hard. But apt to start seeing some bombards and mortars. Try allowing the building one tier later that vanilla in the city and maybe bunch up the ballista and cat that tier. We can slip them another if we see the old behavior.

4) Mongols went a long time without declaring war at all. Maybe they need to enter the game in a state of war. That gives the player, at least, incentive to attack them. And it's probably necessary to get the AI to also. But it may be intended so they tend to penetrate a ways before starting to attack to mix up their effects from game to game. It's probably not a problem.

I am mostly annoyed that they won't attack my cities and storm so I can see the walls in action against them. Not that I have much doubt of the effects after seeing the two bridge battles last night. I was outnumbered 2:1 in numbers, and their quality troops were better. My general was as good, or better, in those, but chivalrous, not dreadful. That was impressive. Especially the second. Their routing troops totally swarmed my guys who just stood in their neat lines fighting and shooting. Those Janissary Archers are tough! I suspect the naffatuns were the source of most of the routing. The Mongols were compressed at the bridgehead by stakes, couldn't move to either side, and the dismounted lancers (one depleted unit!) were holding them bottled on the road. The archers had a cipped C around that up the slope a little in two tiers, but the naffatuns were right behind the lancers tossing molotovs over their heads. The 2 trebs and cat farther back the road didn't hurt either, but their accuracy isn't what it should be yet. It was delightfully ugly. :smash:

It's nice I can build lancers in castles, but I prefer Saracens. Cheaper man for man and larger units, which helps a lot in their blocking role. Easier to replace too. But having the lancers to hand in castles gives castles a good blocker. JA are better than OI by far too. OI are also okay as castle garrisons. Castles are important for naffatuns and cav. Maybe HJI once I get the chance to build the building. 10k is steep. Budget a bit tight with all these large anti-Mongol garrisons. Maybe I can cut them back after seeing them perform.

5) As for the big armies, never played this late before. ~;) I did see big armies before, but overall the composition of them is a bit better now. Eggies are throwing stacks at me with a few cav, some jav and archers, and infantry. Balanced armies are harder. I take more losses. Can't get away with overrunning the missiles to force them to keep skirmishing and not use the missiles (with my HA army, that is). And if I respond with infantry-based armies, I take more casualties too. Slowmovers always lose more.

My HA get really chewed up my Mongols with my hit & run tactics. All that massed missile fire on their side too hurts, but the light lancers are the nasties. They are FAST. But I'm preserving my units and their experience is getting up close to the Mongols. I have some into gold chevrons, and a full stack (at least) into the silver range spread among my three stacks. But one is in Greece, one in Egypt and only one in the Holy Land chasing Mongols.

I think the BIG change is the early diplomatic behavior. I was doing well early and getting swarmed by factions close to me because diplomacy is so nuts. That is annoying and frustrating. I could have all alliances and good relationships and they'd declare just because. And they were all unallied with each other. Now I can manage relationships early so I get a chance to expand a bit and turtle a bit, with a war here, a war there, off and on, until a crusade pulls them onto me or I start wrecking my rep by expanding. Once I do, I'm in a decent position to fight back.

It wasn't so much that I had no chance to beat them as I plain didn't want to deal with it at that stage. I had similar issues with Civ until I learned to manage diplomacy and killing off the nasties early in that. Some civs just must die. That's probably part of it here too. After playing quite a lot, and studying up, I know more what to expect from the factions based on which I'm playing. So I know what's coming and how to prevent some of it. For example, I know Byz is gonna attack Turkey, and Egypt too, though a bit later. So I know to build up facing Byz early, and Egypt a bit later, to discourage, or counter, that. But the diplomacy changes help hold them off a bit better, and prevent the early piling on from others from the healousy triggers. In fact, since I have allies everywhere, the additional declarations against the aggressors help buy time and earlier peace (if I want it or not!). So, I can control the pace a BIT better.

But in the long run the player has to expand and that's gonna kill alliances with him, and the tall poppy syndrome will kick in. That's fine.

6) Oh, you didn't ask 6. But it occurred to me. Not sure we need the slow tempo. But I should play another faction before being too dogmatic. The timing of events is fine. I was ready for the Mongols, but not so ready I was waiting. I didn't have all my cities with their planned garrisons, but I was close enough. That tells me the original turns per year should work. We are slowed down some, but for the blitzer in vanilla there's too much time anyway.

I'm at 28 regions with invasions working for two more. Distances are an issue since I'm heading for rear areas. Main issue now is finishing off the Mongols. Once that's done and I can look west, should roll up what I need pretty fast. The large number of battles in that crusade and Mongol invasion combined made play a lot slower. Autoresolve is not an option for those. Odds were 2:1 at best, and 1:2 more common. That PS crusade was a bear too. Beat it with a slightly depleted infantry-based army, but was a fight. The remnants were what then got attacked by the Mongols twice at the Antioch bridge.

Oh, more Mongols. Didn't know they came in waves this far apart. Maybe now I'll get some wall action. The battered first wave has turned back to Antioch. Maybe they'll tackle the bridge again. My army there is back up to full. That would be nice.

Heh, 4 HA against 2 rebel foot archers (turk or bulgarian or something) and 1 rebel spears. Raw that's 160 versus 200. Wiped them out with 0 losses. Have to go loose, Bag them close to keep them skirmishing all the time after charging in full speed. They even had the high ground at the start. If they'd turned off skirmish they would have at least hurt me a decent amount. Silly AI. Not something we can mod, again. Have to have the AI look at what is approaching and then decide what to do. Pays to stand and fight HA, but not regular cav. But then doesn't exactly pay to flee regular cav in this situation either.

Eggies still pestering me in Egypt. Their FH and FL are in same stack headed in. Maybe I can wipe them out. They can't have many generals now. My invasion fleet is assembled and about to sail. It needs to pass Alexandria to load a couple more units then it's heading to Tripoli. From there it will base to hit Corsica. Then look for targets of opportunity. The Grecian fleet is also loading. It's gonna take out Ragusa and just level the place. That will remove Venice's castle troop production, though won't hurt them as much as some factions. I'll start the conversion to a city then pull out if they start attacking. I just want them crippled since I have Hungary on my borders too. After that I'll invade Hungary from the south. Sophia and Bran at the major targets for the same reason. Both are fortresses. I'll probably level Bran first. Then double back.

Too bad the AI can't act in similar fashion. Though the Mongols sort of act that way, it's random, I suspect. And I didn't leave any cities as inviting as the AI does in its rear areas.

Turn 92: Incoming Venetian and Hungarian stacks. And Cairo under siege again. Heh. Darned Eggies. My invasion needs 6 turns to get to Tripoli. Shipping catapults takes a while. The Ragusa one is about 3 turns out. Mongols going in circles again. Trying to finish replenishing my HA army for another bite of them, while tempting them with my JA army at every bridge. Wish they'd besiege. Can sucker them into wall tower range then. I don't dare take them on in the field with that army though. It needs some sort of restricted terrain, and the desert around Edessa is not that.

Turn 93: Eggies tried to storm Cairo. Huge stone walls and ballista towers and a full garrison with 4 JA, 1 OI, 1 turk archers, 1 peasant archers and lots of infantry. I think the Eggies were actually outnumbered. Two JA put spikes in the gatehouse exit. But the Eggies never came close to getting there. The ram burned fast. The tower made it to the wall, then burned. I only had the OI and TA using fire arrows. Rest were shooting to kill. Mostly drop shots though, walls were crammed. The Eggies had 4 more rams but they never tried. Not that they had any hope. They pulled back out of range and sat. And sat. And sat. I wish the AI would just retreat and get it over.

Some shots of repulsing their storm attempt.

https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3480/0028gw7.th.jpg (https://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0028gw7.jpg)
Fireworks as the ram is lit up.

https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9894/0033hk1.th.jpg (https://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0033hk1.jpg)
Two incoming LAWS, err, flaming ballista missiles. Hard to catch those.

https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/184/0034yr4.th.jpg (https://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0034yr4.jpg)
And one tower flambe.

That was it for excitement.

Heh, I lost 1 man. Must have been friendly fire. Yeah, that was a dumb siege. I had 1050 men, they had 743. And I bet my power value was way higher too. Cost them 485 men dead.

For the record, my archers killed 201. So the towers got 284, and they mostly shot at the siege gear.

The real threat in a siege is running out of arrows defending. That's where the attacker sends in the first army, does what it can to disable towers, knock down walls, etc, then pulls that out for reinforcements to assault. The second wave might meet no arrow fire from archers. But towers would still be shooting.

I can see this being an issue if the Mongols try seriously to attack. But rams won't do it. I don't know what Timmie elephants can do, but they might pose a bigger threat.

Get well.

Carl

03-21-2007, 22:18

Get well.

Thnx~:). while i'm a long way off 100% I AM dosed up ATM LOL, so I can at least string 2 thoughts together. Last night I was having trouble with half a thought :laugh4:.

1. Thats what i thought, I just know you where fairly unsure of it at first, so I wondered what you thought now we'd tweaked a few things and you'd had some prolonged experience using it.

2. I'll get to work on it

3. TBH i feel the recruit rates are too low anyway, i was a bit draconian again as it takes 20 turns to go from an empty pool to a full one right now and a full pool is only 2 strong. S some improvement in recruitment rate is probably mandatory for fast replacments. But if I give them access in too many places they could start spamming it again. My favorite solution is to raise replenish rate so it takes 3 turns to get the pool up to 1, but limit the pool size to 1 so that if they go through a period where they aren't recruiting any they can't suddenly spam a ton of it. I aren't sure weather putting it back in cities would d the same though. I don't think it would as the recruitment rate would probably still be too low. But what do you think?

I do like the idea of Bunching up Catapults and Ballista though. Right now Catapults need fortresses which are a bit much TBH.

I'll edit in the rest as I go. I'm taking my time~;p.

4. What I meant is that a number of players from vanilla have reported that the Mongols/Tirmurds commonly either go ultra aggressive and dangerous, throwing serious spanners in the works. Or, (as here), they go very passive, and never attack much, and if they do it tends to be a very weak attack. I'd kinda like to see the very aggressive type more as it helps slow a player down more. I don't know if I can start them in a war situation, I'll find out.

5. Nice to hear, you seeing more late units too? Also glad you like the diplomacy changes, they really change the nature and texture of the game for me, it feels almost like a different game at times. With the removal of the War trigger and a VERY heavily toned down alliance trigger you'll see good rep stick around a bit longer, but it's harder to get in the first place. Overall I'd like it to be possible, (with a lot of difficulty and effort involved), for a player to literally buy his way to victory by making lots of strong alliances and keeping them, then buying territory they capture of others off them. SO apart from the Rebels/Mongols/Timurids/Naval Invasions from his allies enemies, he might never have to fight a single battle. The later should be very difficult of course, but it would add an interesting extra twist and be very useful in some ways to fighting players for gaining small-scale footholds in distant lands without having to send massive numbers of stacks over to establish an initial empire their.

For what it's worth my longest campaign has bee in my BETA's of this mod too.

6. Hmmm, interesting point, TBH I expected the player to be slowed down more so I gave more time. I'd still like to see how some of the western/Italian factions do, but you could easily be right.

7. Regarding the Lancers vs. Saracen militia and OI vs. JA stuff in your point 4 reply. The JA vs. OI doesn't worry me so much because of both the differences in when they become available, and also the fact that by the time JA come along, cities are genuinely starting to take more of the military burden. Castles remain important for both their unique late units and greater individual production abilities, but they are not quite the be-all and end-all of a powerful military that they once where.

Saracen militia vs. Dismounted Sipahi Lancers is another matter. First because the Militia are available a good bit earlier on than when cities become important, and because Lancers are latter to begin with by a fairly significant margin, a Similar comment applies between Dismounted Arab Cav and Saracen Militia.

Thats not to say that Dismounted Lancers don't have advantages. They have a slightly higher attack and defense as well as more Armour upgrades. They also have a higher charge. Charging Dismounted Lancers with max Armour upgrades have +2 defense and +3 attack over Saracen Militia. This makes them better at receiving Cav charges and fighting other infantry. They are also Hardy and have slightly above average mass so that they are even more resistant to Cav charges. They also have a higher Morale which means they hold longer.

Unfortunately most of these advantages are negated by the smaller unit size, the ability of heavy Cav to punch through 2 deep formations and lap round 3 deep formations of Dismounted Lancers actually makes them less effective vs. Cav.

Theirs also the issue that Saracen Militia have some distinct advantages over their non-Turk/Egypt equivalents.

The main advantage is the free upkeep and the 40 Florins lower price. Admittedly their equivalents turn up at the top barracks at the Stone Castle, which are rather earlier than Cities, but it still limits their early use a Little. Despite that i'm of the opinion they are too cheap considering they are a free upkeep city unit.

Based SOLELY on the issues vs. Cav I would say raising the unit size of all 48 man spear units to 60 would be a good place to start. he second thing I would do is raise Saracen Militia rice slightly to take into account their free upkeep status and the fact that they are so good.

That SHOULD in theory kill the issue, leaving Lancers as the Superior unit overall, but still leaving Saracen Militia as a decent unit worth recruiting alongside the Lancers.

8. Regarding Turkomen's, (I'll use TUK for short), Vs. Sipahi's Vs. THA.

First, for the sake of completeness I'll point out the advantages Sipahi's do have over TUK, (I'll deal with THA in a moment). First being mounted on a Heavy Horse still makes them faster than most Heavy Cav, whilst also increasing their mass when compared to a pony, thus giving a much higher charge impact. The increased melee attack and (especially), charge scores only increase this, making them able to charge units that TUK would struggle heavily with. They also have much better basic defense, especially Armour, (5 points higher), and they have a third again as much in missile attack. They also have much higher Morale too, and better training (that means better formation keeping and fighting ability).

On the other hand they are very expensive, are slower, and tire faster.

None of those are insurmountable issues, and considering that their Lancer versions are hardy, i see no reason for the mounted versions not to be. The real killer though is the Armour upgrades as these cuts the defense difference to a mere 1 point. If Sipahis where genuinely tougher than TUK they would have a place as a tougher, more destructive, but slower HA. The most obvious thing to do would be to swap the Defense skill (9), and Armour, (6), scores around, increasing the Armour difference after all upgrades to a more useful 4 points. Best yet, it's done without raising overall defense, and thus causing Sipahi's to encroach into the Sipahi Lancers Role.

The THA vs. TUK situation is pretty bad if you ask me. One of the really big issues here is that TUK are effectively THA with better defense and slightly better melee. Since we don't want identical units and don't want to encroach on Sipahi's role we can't really make THA better in melee than TUK. Overall I also like the way TUK are layed out, they look like a kind of general purpose HA. Master of no one category, but capable of all. They aren't the best armored, or the best ranged attack, or the best melee. They're just a kind of OK at all. It also doesn't help that THA are really a touch too expensive to begin with when compared to TUK.

So how about somehow increasing the missile abilities of THA, turn them into a kind of glass cannon, easy to hurt if you can hit them, but very powerful if used with due care and attention. The best way I can think of to give them Very Hardy and either AP or 160 range on their missile attacks. I prefer AP as it leaves them vulnerable to early archers whilst giving them a power boost as pure missile HA.

Thoughts again?

vonsch

03-21-2007, 22:50

3. TBH i feel the recruit rates are too low anyway, i was a bit draconian again as it takes 20 turns to go from an empty pool to a full one right now and a full pool is only 2 strong. S some improvement in recruitment rate is probably mandatory for fast replacments. But if I give them access in too many places they could start spamming it again. My favorite solution is to raise replenish rate so it takes 3 turns to get the pool up to 1, but limit the pool size to 1 so that if they go through a period where they aren't recruiting any they can't suddenly spam a ton of it. I aren't sure weather putting it back in cities would d the same though. I don't think it would as the recruitment rate would probably still be too low. But what do you think?

I think that might be the way to go. Limit the pool sharply, but allow them to build them in cities too. That way they can maybe deal with these towers before cannons. They are horrible at using them in field battles though. I still think bumping them back one tier (from vanilla, in cities) might be a good idea though. They don't NEED them very early.

Another point. Merchant Guilds build merchant cav/sipahis, etc. Merchant cav is rated has "heavy cav" according to the game! :laugh4: Sipahis are med cav, I'd say, as are merchant cav. After playing this far into Turkey, the Turkomen are far more useful and lighter, than Sipahis, which are a bit more expensive. But I use my HA as HA, not med cav. For that there are lancers. I've been building Sipahi because I can't make enough Turkomen! I am taking more casualties than I can replace fighting the Mongols (told ya they are the equalizer!)

THA are junky after about 50 turns. Can't give them enough armor to survive incoming missiles reasonably. They take massive losses. In the early going they fill a hole, but not for long. I think they top at padded (or leather). Turkomen get light mail, which does reasonably well against arrows. Sipahi get heavy mail, but no stamina. And stamina and speed are almost more important than missile skill. Heavy mail is... heavy, I guess. Sipahis are also med speed, the others are fast (thus racetrack!)

Anyway, thinking about those unused racetracks again. And bullrings. I think giving bullrings jinettes and racetracks turkomen (for turkey) and maybe even switching to turkomen for the merchant guild would make HA prevalent, but they would be high end pure light HA, not the bigger med ones (like Mamluks). The AI is gonna go more towards infantry for Turks, I suspect. JA and OI and JHI just rate higher, and the AI will used them better. But at the early stages it should use more HA as a result. It does build racetracks. I don't because they do zero that I need (or want). I'd prefer to have a reason to build them. Ditto for bullrings.

I'm also thinking being able to build jinettes (a few) in cities might help Portugal a bit, and will boost Spain a bit. Egypt is a problem sinice Mamluks ARE high end med HA. Maybe let them and the Moors do desert cav instead in racetracks. Could let Egypt do Mamluks in merchant guilds though. I guess it would have to be Arab Cav for the Moors. The differences will give each Islamic faction a bit more flavor too.

Turn 94: Whupped Mongol army in a heads up fight that time in the open. My HA are getting experienced. Lost 55 and killed 493. Beat them to a ridge. High ground makes a huge difference in HA battles (as in most!)

Stole Ragusa from Venice. Hit it with 3/4 stack. They had 1 general and 2 units defending. That should really annoy them. Durrazo is a large town, so it can't build much worth building. Hmm, guess I can keep this fortress.

Hungary keeps sending 1/3 to 1/2 stacks towards Constantinople. I keep crushing them with HA army. Odd. They have two fulls stacks at Sophia. Heh, that general is 22 and "Quite Mad." But he's also got 7 stars before battle-specific additions.

Turn 95: Venice pushes on to Corinth. Besieges my fort guarding the pass into the ismuth. Heh, it's there to delay, nothing more. Noth that I need the delay. Be interesting to see if they dare storm Corinth. It's a citadel and it has a real garrison.

Scot dip just turned up at Raguse. Looks like they own the Isles. England alive on the continent.

Another big fight with a Mongol stack. Hit & run this time, lots of heavy horse archers, those outclass mine too much. Did some damage and pulled out. Lost 202, killed 327. How many waves are there? That's wave one, down to about 3/4 of one stack now. 4 more wave two stacks roaming the mountains.

Aha, wave two has some siege gear. Maybe now they will tackle my walls.

My rep is down to dubious. I assume the lack of alliances to counter the wars is behind the slide. Not attacking out of my own lands most of the time. Only when actually taking a settlement. I wonder if the hordes are treated like rebels for diplomacy. They probably should be.

Turn 96: Heh, Venice besieging Corinth. Slipped past fort after one turn.

Based SOLELY on the issues vs. Cav I would say raising the unit size of all 48 man spear units to 60 would be a good place to start. he second thing I would do is raise Saracen Militia rice slightly to take into account their free upkeep status and the fact that they are so good.

I agree. I'll still prefer Saracens for cities for obvious reasons, but might switch to using lancers in field armies. Castles build more faster. But the free upkeep in cities lets me keep a pool to pull from for quick replacements too.

4. What I meant is that a number of players from vanilla have reported that the Mongols/Tirmurds commonly either go ultra aggressive and dangerous, throwing serious spanners in the works. Or, (as here), they go very passive, and never attack much, and if they do it tends to be a very weak attack. I'd kinda like to see the very aggressive type more as it helps slow a player down more. I don't know if I can start them in a war situation, I'll find out.

This may relate to them not having siege gear in those first stacks. Maybe they should have siege gear in them.

First, for the sake of completeness I'll point out the advantages Sipahi's do have over TUK, (I'll deal with THA in a moment). First being mounted on a Heavy Horse still makes them faster than most Heavy Cav, whilst also increasing their mass when compared to a pony, thus giving a much higher charge impact. The increased melee attack and (especially), charge scores only increase this, making them able to charge units that TUK would struggle heavily with. They also have much better basic defense, especially Armour, (5 points higher), and they have a third again as much in missile attack. They also have much higher Morale too, and better training (that means better formation keeping and fighting ability).

On the other hand they are very expensive, are slower, and tire faster.

Heh. This is me, others may disagree. Everything you say is true, but I use sipahi as horse archers, not med cav. So the things I care about are missile skill (they are better here, but it doesn't matter much in play), stamina (this matters!) and speed (huge). My sipahi get exp slower and take as many losses as my Turcomen, the way that I use them. If I charged them, that wouldn't hold. But against Mongols (and Tims, I'm sure), charging = suicide. We're more equal at bowshot range, at least with a human general and concentrating fire on one flank, etc. Most of my losses tend to come from when I get trapped and charged. Almost all that I inflict are by missile fire.

Formation-keeping matters zero to me. My HA tend to live in loose. And the increased experience the Turkomen have over the Sipahis makes up a lot of those stat differences too. One reason I think that sipahi underperform their stats is stamina. The way they are forced to move in HA battles they get tired, which negates their skill advantage. And they can't outrun light lancers.

But, as armor improves and time goes on, the missile value decreases relatively. That later units have MUCH higher values. HA are still useful for morale effects and formation disruption though, even late. And they can probably still serve to hit & run, though with much higher losses.

If I want to slug it out, that's when it's time for Janissaries!

Is the shield fix playing into this? Maybe we should wait for 1.2 before messing with stats. And even distribution of different types of HA. But my argument for bullrings and horseraces still stands!

I made some Sipahi Lancers and tried them on the Eggies. Ended up with 3 or 4 routing. They hit hard, but you have to micromanage them carefully. They can't live in melee range of decent infantry. That makes sense, but makes them less useful to me. I'm already micro managing HA! They will probably work better as the light cav in infantry-based armies. Guess an all cav army needs heavies more, for smashing lines to send the foot archers home early. Those are the chief enemy of HA.

If the charge issues are improved and the various combat bugs cleaned up in 1.2, this may change. It's just hard to get off a decent charge with 15 HA units milling about. ~;) Besides the usual problems!

https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8135/0037se8.th.jpg (https://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0037se8.jpg)
Looks like this at first:

https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3258/0038ur1.th.jpg (https://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0038ur1.jpg)
Then a bit later:

Hmm, AP would be interesting for THA. It would bring them back into use later. They would be nice against the armored foot junk. But very vulnerable to missiles of any sort. That would make them tempting to keep. Heh, they would also be good against generals and heavy cav... but they are VERY vulnerable to those too. Crunch!

I dunno, I fear AP would overpower them. They are very early for that sort of power. But then Jinettes and desert cav are that way. Those javs sting. They don't get the ammo. Maybe THA should get 2/3 the ammo that the other HA do to compensate for that AP. Use them wisely, they can't hang in the fight in any sense! Maybe even half. More than the jav cav, but less than normal HA. More towards the jav end. That makes them specialty, not really general purpose. They can chase routers, but that's it, and the risk to that is they run into a unit that routed earlier that has since rallied. Ouch.

Turn 97: Venice storms Corinth. They did have a catapult. Never used it though. But I was impressed that they came with tower, ladders and ram, and when the first ladder group routed, they tried another (which routed). And when the first ram burned, they tried a second. But all to no avail. It was a silly attempt in that they were outnumbered, outclassed and out. But I killed lots. :smash:

Naffatun rule over the gatehouse. A zero exp unit just massacred the armored sergeants standing in ranks waiting for the ram to work. Watched them wipe out two units mostly on their own. 20 guys with buckets! They only got 1 chevron, but bet they are close to a second. And they had zero losses. (Only two total losses.)

Heh, Eggies are back at Cairo. They want their city back, I guess. Ho hum. Like they have a chance, not even a full stack.

Tripoli has a large garrison at the moment though. My single stack won't have a chance.

Time to pay the Pope a visit. Paybacks for all his "friendship." I should jihad on Rome, but don't have the generals for that. But Florence and Genoa are sitting with one unit garrisons. I'll rip a hole in his finances. Heh, it's about 10 turns sail with siege gear though. Circumstance may change.

Turn 98: Besieged Bucharest. Bran is wide open too. They only think they're hungry now. Hangarian army at Ragusa. Full stack. Bet it's besieged next turn. That has potential to be a real fight.

Turn 99: Cairo stormed. 2:1 odds against them. Desperation. Heh, 2 towers and 5 rams. Maybe they learned something, though definitely not enough. Darn, no naffatun in Cairo. Forgot to ship some in. That's no fun! Neither tower nor ram burned. But mass slaughter at the gate. Both their generals dead, that's FL and FH. Charging 4 stacked rows of stakes might be a bad idea. Then the ghazis chased them out and ran them off towards the desert. The towers didn't do much this siege, odd. Checked after, nothing needing repairs.

Bucharest fell at a cost of 6 of my men's lives. And Bran fell immediately at a cost of zero lives. Spy opened the gates ~;). Full stack of HA charged in. Budapest has a general and one unit as garrison too. Silly AI.

"Heh, why am I untrustworthly? They declared war on ME. I'm just responding."
(Thanks to the Turk Ministry of Propaganda for that quote.)

I was wrong about Hungary besieging Ragusa. Venice did. With three whole units. The garrison put an end to that nonsense. Hungary has a 2 star, 6 DCKs, 2 spear militia, 1 Bosnian archer, 5 magyar cav (HA), 2 town militia, 1 slav levy and 1 merc xbow. They are a little beat up, but not bad. The garrison is 1 ballista (pretty worthless for this), 3 turk archers, 2 OI, 5 saracens, 4 ghazis. The DCKs are the only reason I think it might be a fight.

I have 3 allies and am at war with 8, including the Mongols (but not the rebels). I hold 31 regions. Mongols still wandering the mountains, 6 stacks, but two are not full.

Turn 100: Okay, NOW Hungary is besieging Ragusa. Just got MG HQ in Iconium. Russia declared war on Milan. Interesting. Heh, PS wants me to pay for peace. They must have spies watching my docks. No way, Jose! Moors called Jihad on Marrakesh, darn. Have to wait to call one on Rome now.

Hmm. Mongols 2 turns from Trebizond, And that garrison isn't big. If they get serious they can take it, I suspect. It will cost them. They look depleted, though. I wonder if they take attrition damage if they don't settle. The 40 units are at 21 men now. Hitting them again. Okay, they were beat up, but now those are obliterated. Lost 17, killed 380. 120 got away. Fast runners.

Shipping garrisons around madly, trying to keep up with my advances. May have to sack some to trim populations back. But they're infidels, so no problem.

Have a fleet sitting at Genoa with a stack aboard. Waiting for a second ship with more to grab a second city before the Pope figures out I'm there. He has lots of stacks around, but no garrisons except in Rome. Bologna is one unit, Genoa, Florence is three, Milan is one. Wish I had more handy forces. ~;)

Turn 101: Hungary storming Ragusa. Odd are 1:1. Probably okay. We'll see. Two towers, two ladders, many rams. Have to study this fortress. Need to know where to fall back to just in case. Okay, ballista goes back in the fort. Can't really do much with it anyway. OI and Ghazis on the walls fighting DCKs.
OI routed theirs fast. Burned only one tower. Heavy fighting, but not too bad. 135 lost to their 531. Again, towers didn't seem to do that much. I couldn't hear them after the first tower burned. Or see them shooting.

That's one fewer stack that Hungary has. I see two more full ones around Sophia. Playing tag with one that wants to besiege Bucharest. Won't let it cross the bridges. My HA army is faster.

Spain and Milan went to war. That should help my allies, the Moors. Full Spanish garrison in Marrakesh. If they vacate, I will join the jihad.

Turn 102: Genoa is mine (destroys thieves guild and coaching house). Hmm, garrison at Florence got beefed, and they ambushed my spy. Scum! Pope has good spies. All of the garrisons are larger, except Genoa.

Looks like Hungary stripped Sofia to send a stack at Constantinople. Silly AI. (sneaks a cat into the trees close to Sofia to wait for a strike team) So many targets, so few garrison troops!

Just figured out I can transfer admirals to new ships. Not the experienced crews though. But it's something. Just build a new ship (better type, I mean) into the fleet, then disband the old ships. Admiral stays with the fleet which is now the new ship.

Turn 103: Russian sneak attack on my border for in Crimea. Gonna lose my 8 good men! 3 half stacks converging there. Interesting. Full PS stack besieging Genoa, with a second in support. Gonna be a big fight! Landed at Ajaccio. It's rebel and heretical. It will give me a closer base that's semi safe for the conquest of Italy.

Turn 104: Danes wanted peace without charging me. Deal! And trade rights. Hungary wants to fight me at a bridge. Okaaaay. 1:1 odds, it says. Bet it's a lot worse than that. But it's my HA army, so nothing to block with. But it's a turkey shoot... err, I mean Turkey is shooting! They managed the crossing, not that it mattered. I lost 9 to their 815 :smash: . I love bridge battles.

Ambushed a Mongol stack. 2:1 odds. That was wild. I've never managed an ambush before that way before. First for me. Lost 77 still, they are nasty things. But that stack is down to peanuts. 443 of 533 killed. Heh, they changed course. Aw, the Mongols hate me now. Like they didn't before.

Ajaccio is Turk. Looks like the Moors took it and lost it to a revolt. Has a masjid and caravan stop. But very undeveloped.

Heh, the Pope left the door to Florence open again. My spy got in and opened the gates. 10:1 odds. Sweet. No losses. Big siege storming coming at Genoa though. No siege gear, but lots of rams and two towers. Hope I get lucky with burning them. Garrison isn't what I'd like. Only one militia spears to block, but 4 OI helps, and 3 ghazis, 2 muttas and 2 naffs. It's huge walls with ballista.

34 regions if I can hold these two. I see 4 full PS stacks in one move's range, two on Genoa. I have another army coming a couple turns out. Running it up to take Bologna from behind. Right now the His Hatness is there with two units.

That would leave Rome and Milan. Or do they go rebel if the Pope dies? (crosses fingers) :smash:

Bombard with small HA escort just outside Budapest. HA army in range to support a quick storm. Gotta sack it to trim the pop down. No garrison close. That will be next turn unless the Hungarians have a stack closer than I can see.
Poles have a stack right there. May have a new enemy.

I hate the way retreating units can cross impassable terrain. They should not be allowed to retreat if they have no where to go. Be nice if that's patched in 1.2.

Turn 105: Genoa is stormed. 9:20 odds. Looks like only one stack. I have a decent shot. Let's see. Oh, second stack was standing behind, not beside. Not in city ZOC. Whew.

Oops. CTD. Think last save is right before turn end.

Interesting, PS using pure towers and sending up all their units. Massive wall fight. Neither tower burned again. 2 OI shooting fire at them, plus the ballista towers. Why do MINE always burn? ~;)

Ah, both towers crumbled finally. Heh, gates wide open. Spy opened them. Silly AI. Heh, now general rode up to the gate, took a few molotovs and fled. He came back alone. He's bar-be-que. Those naffs are wicked.

Final result, lost 111, killed or captured 890. My OI are a bit battered and lost a naff unit that got caught in the wall fight. Would not withdraw. Need to get this city cranking out some JA for the walls. After I root out that spy. Pope is rich but refuses to pay ransom. That's mercy for you.

Florence besieged now. Hot and heavy!

Budapest fell.

The Russians snuck a second ladder onto the wall away from where I was looking. Almost managed to get in. But we beat them back. More heavy wall fighting.

Venetians ready to tackle Ragusa again. Good luck, guys.

1:2 odds against me at Florence, they storm the walls. No ballista towers. But huge walls. More spies. Sheesh. Means scrambling to run to place.

Tower burned that time. That leaves rams. Wow, they are actually coming in the open gates. Saracens got there after the first spears had captured the gate. But beat them back. Heroic victory that time.

Ragusa and Florence back under siege again. PS has at least 5 full stacks, so gonna see a few turns of this, I suspect.

I think the plain walls without towers are more powerful still. That tower burned fast, and the walls killed about 800 to 200 the garrison killed. Something not right. The walls with ballista towers don't do as well in burning siege gear or killing troops. They seem to stall out. If they keep firing, they do fine.

Genoa besieged again, and missed killing that spy. These spies must be 10s. Mine are about 5.

Carl

03-22-2007, 17:24

How many waves are there? That's wave one, down to about 3/4 of one stack now. 4 more wave two stacks roaming the mountains.

3.

Theirs only 2 waves of Tirmurds though.

I agree. I'll still prefer Saracens for cities for obvious reasons, but might switch to using lancers in field armies. Castles build more faster. But the free upkeep in cities lets me keep a pool to pull from for quick replacements too.

This is pretty much what I'd like to see. The Pro castle unit remains the preference for Field armies, but the Militia are preferred Garrison troops, but can also be used to take the place of the castle unit if supplies of the castle version are running short. In effect the Militia isn't cheap garbage, it's just outclassed by it's pro equivalent.

This may relate to them not having siege gear in those first stacks. Maybe they should have siege gear in them.

Perhaps, although the Script marks the first wave as a scouting force! TBH though I think a few Anti-Personnel Ballista/Rocket Launchers and some more anti-wall siege gear in the later waves, (and maybe an extra stack to make up for the lost non-siege units when we add extra siege stuff in), would help a lot. Also I think rearranging unit distribution so as to put a better balance of units in each stack would help too. Right now the units are very poorly distributed.

Heh. This is me, others may disagree. Everything you say is true, but I use Sipahi as horse archers, not med Cav. So the things I care about are missile skill (they are better here, but it doesn't matter much in play), stamina (this matters!) and speed (huge). My Sipahi get exp slower and take as many losses as my TUK, the way that I use them. If I charged them, that wouldn't hold. But against Mongols (and Tims, I'm sure), charging = suicide. We're more equal at bowshot range, at least with a human general and concentrating fire on one flank, etc. Most of my losses tend to come from when I get trapped and charged. Almost all that I inflict are by missile fire.

Formation-keeping matters zero to me. My HA tend to live in loose. And the increased experience the Turkomen have over the Sipahis makes up a lot of those stat differences too. One reason I think that Sipahi under-perform their stats is stamina. The way they are forced to move in HA battles they get tired, which negates their skill advantage. And they can't outrun light lancers.

But, as armor improves and time goes on, the missile value decreases relatively. That later units have MUCH higher values. HA are still useful for morale effects and formation disruption though, even late. And they can probably still serve to hit & run, though with much higher losses.

I guess I'd better be a bit clearer this time. I only mentioned the extra Melee abilities because it would be unfair to ignore them. However, I DO agree with your assessment of them vs. Lancers and TUK. I just felt it would be unfair to not point out their pros vs. TUK.

Their are a few points I guess I'd better go over that have stood out from the files since last time, plus I'd like to re-cover the old Armour bit, just to help drive the point home.

1. strangely enough both Mongol Light Lancers, (MLL), and Sipahis have the same mount type, so should in theory be equally fast, so at a guess I'd say it's got to be the fact that MLL have Hardy, so giving Sipahis their well deserved Hardy trait will probably kill that, and a quick check through other units revealed only one unit with a faster mount type than Sipahis that was actually good enough to be able to beat them in melee IMHO. The formation keeping benefits DO apply to loose formation as well and in theory the unit should shoot in unison better and react to orders/units coming into skirmish range quicker as ell as faster turns. Unfortunately most of the formation stuff is killed by the changes I made to make path finding generally better.

2. another issue with Sipahis is the way their role, (IMHO), changes over time. Early on when the best anti-Cav units are Militia Spearmen and Sergent Spearmen they are the primary melee Cav, their bow being a secondary consideration. They are not at this point HA in any true sense since the majority of units they face at this stage (enemy light Cav, militia archers, town militia, peasants, e.t.c.), will simply disintegrate under a formed charge from them. Their bow is primarily useful in those rare situations where you face an army made up mostly of militia spears.

Later on however you start to see the better quality spears and the early Sword & Shield units. Both are able to resist the initial charge and do considerable damage afterwords with few losses. In addition the Sipahi Lancers turn up and further marginalize the Sipahis role. However at this point, in THEORY, (see point 3 for why reality and theory don't match), Sipahis much greater durability and TUK's lack thereof would push Sipahis into the Primary HA role. Previously their extra defense wasn't really important and their extra missile attack not sufficient justification, especially considering their speed disadvantage compared to many light Cav.

3. Armour. i know I mentioned this before, but it's effect on the value of Sipahis when compared to TUK are huge. It's my opinion that the person who wrote the entries for TUK and Sipahis, (THA where bad from day one), expected the Armour upgrade system to work as the UI says it does, namely +1 per upgrade. The fact that it doesn't has thrown a serious spanner in the works. To help illustrate the point i'm going list the expected Armour values (with Shield Fix applied), and the actual Armour values, (with shield fix applied), after all Armour upgrades possible have been applied.

p.s. I'll go into the effects of the shield fix and them working again in a moment.

First the expected Values:

THA=1

TUK=3

Sipahis=7

Now the Actual Values:

THA=4

TUK=6

Sipahis=8

I think you've probably spotted the issue already, but for those others reading this who haven't I'll explain it.

In simple terms THA have more defense vs. missile in the actual game than the designer expected TUK to have! vonsch has already said that THA even with their 4 actual defense vs. missile are too vulnerable to missile to form the main part of HA forces, especially once larger quantities of TUK become available and the Mongols show up. Thus had things worked as intended, Sipahi's would have become the Turks primary HA simply through being the only unit tough enough to survive the FA and enemy HA present in the mid section of the game. Whilst the much less durable TUK would have been relegated to a support role for the Sipahis.

Theirs no way to Nerf the missile defense down to nearer the intended value without nerfing the already marginalized THA into oblivion, and without also making TUK probably too weak early on too. That was the primary idea behind playing with the way Armour is distributed so as to give Sipahis back their missile durability advantage, and thus granting them back their main benefit, leaving them genuinely useful again.

Is the shield fix playing into this? Maybe we should wait for 1.2 before messing with stats. And even distribution of different types of HA. But my argument for bullrings and horseraces still stands!

Sipahis and TUK have a 3 point shield in vanilla. his means that they both have (with the shield fix in place), 1 point more defense to the right and rear than they should, 0.5 points less defense to the front, (Shields no longer provide their full value to the front, it was a mistake in the code for this thats created the shield bug), and 2 points less defense to the left than they should have. It's this last point that would have helped TUK if Armour upgrades had worked as the designer of the TUK expected as it would have given them 5 defense to the left, (and i suspect he expected it to apply to the front too, I doubt he knew about the reduced frontal shield affect).

I agree your guild point still stands LOL. I was just too tired to finish my reply last night. Give me a bit to deal with your THA reply and I'll sort a reply to it out.

I made some Sipahi Lancers and tried them on the Eggies. Ended up with 3 or 4 routing. They hit hard, but you have to micromanage them carefully. They can't live in melee range of decent infantry. That makes sense, but makes them less useful to me. I'm already micro managing HA! They will probably work better as the light Cav in infantry-based armies. Guess an all Cav army needs heavies more, for smashing lines to send the foot archers home early. Those are the chief enemy of HA.

What you've described is the case with all Cav. Even Gothic Knights after the Shield fix. Almost any unit in the game will beat Gothic Knights in general melee. What makes and breaks all Cav is their charge. If they can wipe out half or more of the enemy unit they will typically outnumber the enemy infantry, at which point they have the numbers to win the fight. Add the morale penalties from fighting a losing fight and the morale shock associated with the formed charge and most units will route at this point. However if the unit charged is not cut down below half strength or if it has significant advantages over the Cav in melee, (AP or an attack bonus vs. Cav), then it Will probably hold after the charge and wipe the Cav out in the subsequent general melee. As a rule of thumb, if the enemy hasn't broken within 10-15 seconds of contact, then you need to pull your melee Cav out or they will get ripped to pieces.

Hmm, AP would be interesting for THA. It would bring them back into use later. They would be nice against the armored foot junk. But very vulnerable to missiles of any sort. That would make them tempting to keep. Heh, they would also be good against generals and heavy cav... but they are VERY vulnerable to those too. Crunch!

I dunno, I fear AP would overpower them. They are very early for that sort of power. But then Jienites and desert Cav are that way. Those javs sting. They don't get the ammo. Maybe THA should get 2/3 the ammo that the other HA do to compensate for that AP. Use them wisely, they can't hang in the fight in any sense! Maybe even half. More than the jav Cav, but less than normal HA. More towards the jav end. That makes them specialty, not really general purpose. They can chase routers, but that's it, and the risk to that is they run into a unit that routed earlier that has since rallied. Ouch.

Whilst i agree that a reduced ammo capacity would be a good idea, I would point out a few things:

1. Javelins are thrown Weapons, this makes them both more accurate and harder hitting, (for a given attack value), than AP arrows.

2. Most Jav Cav have more Armour than THA, so are much less vulnerable to missile than THA.

3. THA only have 6 attack, Jienites and, (I think), desert Cav have 8 missile attack. So even without point 1 they are weaker per shot.

I've cut them to 15 ammo though. Do you think that's enough?

Why do MINE always burn?

The AI gets advantages to it's ignition chance from what people have determined, although no ones found any moddable entries regarding it.

I think the plain walls without towers are more powerful still. That tower burned fast, and the walls killed about 800 to 200 the garrison killed. Something not right. The walls with Ballista towers don't do as well in burning siege gear or killing troops. They seem to stall out. If they keep firing, they do fine.

hmmm, not good. It's probably down to the reduce activation radius, their are probably towers in range that are not activate, I cut the Ballista Tower Fire rate because of this at one point, they where just TOO good. It's also worth mentioning that they have much greater range than arrow towers, but since the AI is never smart enough to deploy his siege gear out of range of arrow towers you never see the benefits of the Towers in this regard. Specifically that they out-range all non-gunpowder artillery.

I'd also say that ordinary arrow towers burn siege gear (especially towers), too easily. That helps make sieges overly easy. Whilst small amounts of siege gear should not be effective IMHO, even large amounts seem to struggle.

Lastly, thanks for all the reports on your movements, and battles, i Haven't quoted any, but it's still been very useful, it's just hard to comment on at times as it's usefulness comes more from the overall picture i can get and how it reinforces and backs up other statements.

vonsch

03-22-2007, 18:03

Perhaps, although the Script marks the first wave as a scouting force! TBH though I think a few Anti-Personnel Ballista/Rocket Launchers and some more anti-wall siege gear in the later waves, (and maybe an extra stack to make up for the lost non-siege units when we add extra siege stuff in), would help a lot. Also I think rearranging unit distribution so as to put a better balance of units in each stack would help too. Right now the units are very poorly distributed.

Not sure how I feel about "balanced" stacks for them. Pure cav stacks mixed with balanced ones might pose greater problems for the player. As they come now, they move slowly. I'd make the scouting force, the first wave, pure cav. It would move and hit fast when they player is apt to be most vulnerable. Give that one more spies too. Maybe one per stack. It might pull the gate opening trick on a poorly garrisoned city and just sweep in.

But later it's gonna take balance to take any cities. One or two pure cav stacks in the later waves would still create more issues than all balance though. Strategic speed makes a huge difference, as you can see by how I'm walking all over the AI at the strategic level. Partly that's poor "thinking" for the AI, but part of it is I just move faster. It's letting me pick my fights with the Mongols too. My pure cav army is more than twice as fast (with my bonuses to speed). Even my bridge force is faster.

These PS sieges are harder and more interesting with the spies at work. And they seem to be operating a little differently tactically too. More emphasis on speed. ~;)

BTW, sacking is viable at this stage. I'm getting 5k or more per sack of these large cities. That's okay in my book. I don't really need the income now. I do it mostly for the population control (and it's barely enough... maybe). I just don't want the larger hit in dread for exterminating. Florence is rioting and Genoa is close due to the spies and the hit for being besieged. Florence is at 22K and Genoa at 28k after being sacked. Probably should have just exterminated the infidels and moved in good Muslims.

PS is pressing me hard, even though their strategy of one stack per city is poor. Much harder than anyone else has. If they threw three stacks, or even four (which they had to start easily) at me at once in one city, they'd crush me. Even so, they might get lucky with these spy tricks. Their PG are tough and if one gets on the ground inside, it's gonna get ugly fast.

Bongaroo

03-22-2007, 18:54

The mongels arrived in my campaign and gunpowder is now available. I'm a little confused about the army barracks for the byzantines, does it do anything? Is it needed for anything special? Also its name is army_barracks, that a bug?

I've started raking in 8 or 9k a turn no sweat and I'm running out of things to spend it on. I thought venice had gone into hibernation but they apparently took advantage of the peace between Hungry and I by grabbing Sofia from Hungry. I've killed off the jihad armies that were camped on Constantinoble so now I'll be shifting some elite forces towards venice to put them down and help out Hungry who have steadily eaten away at Poland with help from Russia our northernmost ally. Oddly the alliance between Russia and Hungry has just fallen apart but I have perfect relations with both. They are both very low on the Reputation scale so maybe thats why. A lot of nations are low on the Reputation scale, Egypt is an exception.

About 10-15 turns ago the Byz-Ven War had somewhat cooled and the turks had been stepping up operations in the east so I shifted a large force to the turkish front. The mongels were sowing confusion further east and the Turks were on the full defensive. I hade assembled about 3 stacks of troops to push in on Iconium. About a 12-14 units of assorted HA's and 2 or 3 heavy's including the general. 1 full stack of infantry and 3 or 4 siege catapults landed on the coast to join another near full stack of infantry that had moved in from Smyrna and Nicea. The all-cav army pushed into the passes east of Iconium while the infantry armies moved in to siege the 3/4 stack housed in the walls.

Was a fairly interesting opening to an invasion IMHO. Was fun to organize since my strong navy is in control of local waters and makes ferrying troops easy and safe. Iconium fell and was occupied. It is under control easily freeing a stack and a half to continue onwards with the catapults. Adanna had already been mine a while so the Turk-Byzantium Wars are probably coming to a close with the mongels assisting in the killing blows to the Turks. They are now limited to the inland cities that aren't very productive and Trebizond is a castle that is next on my target list.

Although its been fun till now, I am swinging into a dislike for this campaign. Gunpowder's arrival isn't exciting for the Byzantine's and my armies are sweeping everything aside backed up by my impressive economy and navy.

Although I felt on edge fighting Venice for a bit they never really hit me hard enough to hurt me. I was short on cash but won some impressive victories to completely change the tide of battle. Although they allied with the Turks who went to war with me, they never both attacked at the same time so I wasn't really pressured by a multi-front war.

I just can't decide who to play next. Maybe the spainards on H/VH or the Danes or HRE.

Carl

03-22-2007, 20:51

The Mongols arrived in my campaign and gunpowder is now available. I'm a little confused about the army barracks for the Byzantines, does it do anything? Is it needed for anything special? Also its name is army_barracks, that a bug?

It increases the max pool size and replenish rate of Vargarian Guard. Byzantium doesn't get it in Vanilla so the name is a text bug I've got to try to remember to track down at some point.

Although its been fun till now, I am swinging into a dislike for this campaign. Gunpowder's arrival isn't exciting for the Byzantines and my armies are sweeping everything aside backed up by my impressive economy and navy.

Although I felt on edge fighting Venice for a bit they never really hit me hard enough to hurt me. I was short on cash but won some impressive victories to completely change the tide of battle. Although they allied with the Turks who went to war with me, they never both attacked at the same time so I wasn't really pressured by a multi-front war.

Sounds like you had an easier time than Vonsch, but then you do have a better starting economy and better overall navy. The AI is a bit silly I agree, it's odd that those Jihad's wouldn't hit Constantinople though. I also suspect the early availability of a Byzantine Spear level unit contributed to the easiness of the early stages too. If you'd needed the next level barracks to get them I suspect you would have had a harder time early on which would have helped tremendously to increase the challenge.

Not sure how I feel about "balanced" stacks for them. Pure Cav stacks mixed with balanced ones might pose greater problems for the player. As they come now, they move slowly. I'd make the scouting force, the first wave, pure Cav. It would move and hit fast when they player is apt to be most vulnerable. Give that one more spies too. Maybe one per stack. It might pull the gate opening trick on a poorly garrisoned city and just sweep in.

But later it's gonna take balance to take any cities. One or two pure Cav stacks in the later waves would still create more issues than all balance though. Strategic speed makes a huge difference, as you can see by how I'm walking all over the AI at the strategic level. Partly that's poor "thinking" for the AI, but part of it is I just move faster. It's letting me pick my fights with the Mongols too. My pure Cav army is more than twice as fast (with my bonuses to speed). Even my bridge force is faster.

All good points. Although what I was more getting at was the way you get one stack composed mostly of Mongol Heavy Horse Archers and Heavy Lancers, and then another of Ordinary Mongol Horse Archers and Light Lancers. Having a mixture of Light and Heavy Lancers and Archers would be much more dangerous and interesting I would think.

BTW, sacking is viable at this stage. I'm getting 5k or more per sack of these large cities. That's Okay in my book. I don't really need the income now. I do it mostly for the population control (and it's barely enough... maybe). I just don't want the larger hit in dread for exterminating. Florence is rioting and Genoa is close due to the spies and the hit for being besieged. Florence is at 22K and Genoa at 28k after being sacked. Probably should have just exterminated the infidels and moved in good Muslims.

Thats OK though as at this stage the money can't fuel a blitz like it could early on, besides you'd be seeing more like 30-40K normally at this point.

PS is pressing me hard, even though their strategy of one stack per city is poor. Much harder than anyone else has. If they threw three stacks, or even four (which they had to start easily) at me at once in one city, they'd crush me. Even so, they might get lucky with these spy tricks. Their PG are tough and if one gets on the ground inside, it's gonna get ugly fast.

TBH the PS would probably be hurting you even more if PG weren't it's only good siege unit. Th trouble is that their best Sword & Shield unit (DFK), is seriously sub par, as are their Pavise Crossbows, (due to the fact that the Crossbows are very vulnerable to Cav charges due to the Skirmish mode bug, and the fact that they can't compare with JA/Longbows/OI/e.t.c. in terms of melee). This isn't helped by their lack of decent non-guild Cav. hey in effect rely very heavily on PG and Swiss Guard to give them their power and SG aren't that good in sieges.

p.s. I've added to my post previous to this one, that post 305 for reference. Just in case you missed it.

Anyway, thinking about those unused racetracks again. And bullrings. I think giving bullrings jinettes and racetracks TUK (for turkey) and maybe even switching to TUK for the merchant guild would make HA prevalent, but they would be high end pure light HA, not the bigger med ones (like Mamluk's). The AI is gonna go more towards infantry for Turks, I suspect. JA and OI and JHI just rate higher, and the AI will used them better. But at the early stages it should use more HA as a result. It does build racetracks. I don't because they do zero that I need (or want). I'd prefer to have a reason to build them. Ditto for bullrings.

I'm also thinking being able to build jinettes (a few) in cities might help Portugal a bit, and will boost Spain a bit. Egypt is a problem since Mamluk's ARE high end med HA. Maybe let them and the Moors do desert Cav instead in racetracks. Could let Egypt do Mamluk's in merchant guilds though. I guess it would have to be Arab Cav for the Moors. The differences will give each Islamic faction a bit more flavor too.

AND

Another point. Merchant Guilds build merchant Cav/Sipahis, etc. Merchant Cav is rated has "heavy Cav" according to the game! Sipahis are med Cav, I'd say, as are merchant Cav. After playing this far into Turkey, the Turkomen are far more useful and lighter, than Sipahis, which are a bit more expensive. But I use my HA as HA, not med Cav. For that there are lancers. I've been building Sipahi because I can't make enough Turkomen! I am taking more casualties than I can replace fighting the Mongols (told ya they are the equalizer!)

Hmmm, a lot to think about here. Your right in that right now the Racetracks are of Little use, yes the happiness bonus is brilliant, but the cost is often prohibitive and they don't give any other major benefits. On the other hand, I don't really want any units turning up before the Large_City level, (when gunpowder units/pikes/halberds show up), that are major parts of the Field armies of the period in which they will mostly turn up in. I could in theory limit the pool size to a low value, but then that defeats the entire point of putting them their as the size is so low that you can't get a useful number of units from the cities. On the other hand if I have a useful sized pool so you can recruit a useful number from your various cities I defeat the point of the City/Castle split by taking all the production load for these units off castles, and if i limit them to mostly out of date units i get the double issue that A) the resultant troops are only good for Garrison duty, (which defeats the idea of making some units more common/helping Portugal), and B) HA don't make good Garrison units anyway.

On the other hand i could probably solve the Bullring/Portugal/Spain issue by putting Merchant Cav their, all Merchant Cav are are wealthy middle classes who can afford the equipment of a full knight but don't have the training to match. So theirs no reason to just limit them to Guilds. They have the added advantage of being weaker than proper heavy Cav and slower than light Cav, but still being better than any city unit you'll get for a bit.

That just leaves racetracks and the eastern factions to sot out. Their more problematic as they have nothing thats really the equivalent. Sipahis for example are similar in terms of melee attack/defense to militia Cav, but have much better Morale and training plus a missile attack, (which on a mounted unit is worth more than the melee capabilities alone), Arab Cav aren't much better with a half again as much melee punch and better Morale and Training again. Where in a catch 22 situation. We want more HA early, but I'd rather not see cities as a big source of them, I don't really have issues adding TUK/Desert Cav (Moors)/Arab Cav (Egypt) to the second level racetrack as by then Sipahi's, (once we fix em), and Grenadine Jienites will have taken over for Turks/Moors, whilst Mamluk's/Royal Mamluk's will have taken over the Cav role for Egypt. THA might work for Turks on 1st level Racetracks, but it's dicey with their low defense and (if we do go AP on them), good missile power, they could be no use at all, or too much.

Any ideas?

vonsch

03-22-2007, 21:59

Poland just attacked me at Budapest. I'm the bad guy now.

Stormed at Genoa. 9:20 odds. Maybe the gates will be closed, let's see. I have spies in both cities now. Did see a spy and an assassin booted out. Didn't manage to catch either though. Darn, gates open again! Scum!

One tower burning. Looks like they are gonna push for the wall this time, if the other tower doesn't burn. Yep, wall fight, but they are ignoring the gate.

Sent my general out to attack them from behind at the base of the tower. Worked nicely. Another heroic victory. They are wearing down my garrison though. But they pay 10:1. One Turk is worth ten of this infidel scum! Of course, the losses don't help with maintaining order.

I keep getting offered 50+ year-old suitors. Why bother? They die too fast.

Oops, PS pulled a stack from Rome to throw at me just as the next wave of forces arrived. This time I exterminate. 23k skulls piled outside the gates. Chops the tax revenues, but I'm well in the black now.

The HA army holding Budapest sallied into the faces of the Poles. Garrison troops almost there. Should be able to start building this turn too, with the siege lifted. That was bloody. They had siege gear aimed my way and I was a bit compressed getting out. They had a full stack besieging and two half stacks supporting close by. But my general is a night attacker, so he's taking each out one at a time.

Next army is in a little bowl, how nice for me. And one more army to go to clean up this little Polish expedition. Hope it's not all Polish Nobles. They are a pain. They chase my HA all over. There was one on their right wing. I sent three divisions to take him out in about three volleys. Heh, that commander is quite mad, but he's also stellar now.

I feel better about upgrading to lanternas. The base stats of those is three better than my most experienced war galley which is at one gold chevron. Plus they have larger crews.

The AI seems to stop building ships once the seas are cleared. Or maybe it's because they are prioritizing land units since they are in wars. Hurts them in that they aren't contesting my sea movements though, and the Med is the spoke on the world's wheel, pretty much.

Another silly Venetian siege. 2:1 odds in my favor. Let them wear themselves down at Ragusa. As soon as I deal with this infidel false prophet, I'll be poised to tackle Venice. Sicily is hanging in there as ally. Maybe I should make nice. Plenty rich now, can afford large bribes. But I won't pay Spain for a ceasefire. They aren't in a position to attack me at the moment anyway.

Don't really want to go after Poland, too much long overland travel. And it's COLD up there.

Let's see, 2 towers, 3 manned rams and 2 ladders. Good, they'll all be fat targets. Ghazis are very nice at wall defense and crashing gate masses. And cheap, I keep all my jihad units for garrisons. Muttas are ok, just more brittle. That AP the ghazis have are great at bashing these armored storm troopers. Anyway, that one repulsed easily, but they really lacked a reasonable force. They did bash gate, but two units lasted about 10 seconds running into 3 saracens and 2 ghazi on the flanks. Neither tower dropped a ramp. One burned, other was destroyed. Ladders repulsed easily by ghazi. Ho hum.

Have to run out timer. One unit ran all the way around the back and is just sitting out there. A couple fragments hiding in the woods too. 20:1 kill ratio that time. A lot of militia. Venice hurting for production.

That spy in Genoa still hiding out. Bringing up more spies from Nicaea. As I can train them.

Hungary attacking garrison troops trying to get to Bucharest on coast of Black Sea. Infantry battle, though they have a general. Lots of blood in the snow.

And the storm hits Florence again, 1:2 odds. Darned spies! Looks like a tower assault though. Nothing coming up the middle so far. One tower burning, but those troops heading to other tower, not gate. Heh, it kinda of funny to watch the garrison scramble into place. lost 25, killed 885. Let's see how many the arrow towers killed. Garrison killed 137, 44 more prisoners. Rest were towers. Ah! Got both spies. Much better.

57 year-old suitor this time.

I see 3 PS stacks left, looks like they want Rome back worst.

I've cut them to 15 ammo though. Do you think that's enough?

If you're giving them AP, probably so. What's normal for HA, 30?

The AI gets advantages to it's ignition chance from what people have determined, although no ones found any moddable entries regarding it.

Yeah, I figured this was the case. That was rhetorical. Another "hidden" advantage to try to compensate for bad tactics.

Lastly, thanks for all the reports on your movements, and battles, i Haven't quoted any, but it's still been very useful, it's just hard to comment on at times as it's usefulness comes more from the overall picture i can get and how it reinforces and backs up other statements.

Yep. Trying to understand better myself how the AI reacts on both scales. I'm more impressed with the tactical. It's pulling some tricks in sieges that would work if it understood the force ratios needed to make a siege work better. One of the last couple it managed to sneak a ladder crew to my right around a corner and actually get onto the wall. Never noticed until the battle was over. My archers shot across the corner and killed them as they came off the ladder. I wondered what that unit was shooting at way over there! There were a lot of trees on that side, so suspect they were hidden.

My economy is rolling now. 125k in treasury and building expensive stuff everywhere. My income is 150k and my fixed expenses are almost exactly half of that. So I have 75k per turn to build with, bribe (which I haven't been doing) and save. Running large garrisons (12-15 units) and have 3 HA armies (with some replacements pre-built) and still have a couple foot armies around (my bridge ambush army is waiting at a river crossing for the Mongols again). I have about 7-8 3 ship fleets. Don't really need more as I own the Med aside from the Moors. Not seeing any Sicilian ships. Did you somehow make them totally ignore ships? They still hold Palermo and Naples, nothing more. Portugal is hanging in there with Lisbon.

https://img382.imageshack.us/img382/6655/10005wg5.th.jpg (https://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10005wg5.jpg)
Power curve and treasury for reference

It's turn 109. Let's check the standings. Heh, my power curve is smooth. Pretty interesting. Never had one like this before. I triple the nearest competition. Milan is 2. Then Denmark, Spain and Poland. My military is more than quadruple the second place Danes (in that category). Looks like Milan has 10-11 territories. They lost their homeland and moved west and north. Those next 4 are all grouped at 8-12 regions.

I'd say I turned the corner on the treasury about turn 100. It was shortly after I got aggressive. The additional cities covered the carrying costs of my field armies better. I haven't really increased those proportionately.

And a note on the power curve: Early on a couple factions were above me. They died. HRE and Byz that I can recall. HRE I had no hand in the destruction of.

Some screenies I've saved:

https://img240.imageshack.us/img240/4681/0042xz0.th.jpg (https://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0042xz0.jpg)
Naffatuns in action. That's 3 bottles. That mess is all of their making. They are right above the gatehouse.

https://img240.imageshack.us/img240/8312/0047ep4.th.jpg (https://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0047ep4.jpg)
Trail of Fears. That's right after I ambushed them. The one to SW is the remnant. The rest went north instead of trying east. You can see all the stacks are depleted. That's mostly NOT my doing. There's some sort of attrition happening. It's even across units like with a siege defense.

https://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7277/0048gn5.th.jpg (https://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0048gn5.jpg)
HA army "holding" a bridgehead. It gets a bit disorganized, but all the Hungarians routed after a minute or so of concentrated arrow fire. I just charge at them, and then skirmish back naturally. Once you click the ground at the bridgehead as a movement target, the HA keep trying to get there, and skirmishing back. Keeps the enemy very unsettled and unformed.

Carl

03-23-2007, 00:20

If you're giving them AP, probably so. What's normal for HA, 30?

25 mostly, varies for some though.

Yeah, I figured this was the case. That was rhetorical. Another "hidden" advantage to try to compensate for bad tactics.

Sorry, didn't realize you where being rhetorical.

Yep. Trying to understand better myself how the AI reacts on both scales. I'm more impressed with the tactical. It's pulling some tricks in sieges that would work if it understood the force ratios needed to make a siege work better. One of the last couple it managed to sneak a ladder crew to my right around a corner and actually get onto the wall. Never noticed until the battle was over. My archers shot across the corner and killed them as they came off the ladder. I wondered what that unit was shooting at way over there! There were a lot of trees on that side, so suspect they were hidden.

The problem is that the strength calculator rates Spears very highly.

DFK are worth 1632, whilst Armored Sergeants are worth 1320. DFK are thus only rated 23% better than Armored Sergeants, but the DFK would beat the Armored Sergeants 2:1 easily. DCK are even worse. Similar issues happen with JHI for example. They are worth 1536, making them worth less than DFK in spite of them being able to take any non-mounted/FA unit in the game. Cav are even Worse. Sipahi Lancers are only worth 1184, (or maybe 832 if it only include primary attack, but it's probs adds all attack values together so it's more likely to be 1184), and their charge is definitely strong enough to frighten any 2-hander, (including JHI). Pikes are the worst though. Simple Pike Militia are worth just 360, and even the best (noble Pikemen), are worth a meager 1020. It's really stupid like that.

I've added and update to my last post BTW.

vonsch

03-23-2007, 02:53

That just leaves racetracks and the eastern factions to sot out. Their more problematic as they have nothing thats really the equivalent. Sipahis for example are similar in terms of melee attack/defense to militia Cav, but have much better Morale and training plus a missile attack, (which on a mounted unit is worth more than the melee capabilities alone), Arab Cav aren't much better with a half again as much melee punch and better Morale and Training again. Where in a catch 22 situation. We want more HA early, but I'd rather not see cities as a big source of them, I don't really have issues adding TUK/Desert Cav (Moors)/Arab Cav (Egypt) to the second level racetrack as by then Sipahi's, (once we fix em), and Grenadine Jienites will have taken over for Turks/Moors, whilst Mamluk's/Royal Mamluk's will have taken over the Cav role for Egypt. THA might work for Turks on 1st level Racetracks, but it's dicey with their low defense and (if we do go AP on them), good missile power, they could be no use at all, or too much.

Any ideas?

How about make the pool for those buildings 1. That way they aren't a source in the army sense, but they are a replacement source. And I'm saying make them lower end, but not THA level. Turkomen, desert cav, etc. Arab cav is ok for Moors, I think, since they are lightweight in general. But desert cav there too is fine. Just having handy replacements would help Portugal. As it stands, Lisbon needs replacements shipped in from Pamplona unless they wipe out Spain.

Give a reasonable replacemant rate, but keep the cap at 1. Maybe 1 per 2 turns. It's more to "top off" units than actually build them. This will give them a bit more of a role early. I think the merchant guild pool is too large anyway. The same theory applies there. It's garrison horse. Not a lot is needed, but need replacements if it gets battered a bit.

The merchant cav idea isn't bad, either, but it gets away from the idea of these factions. Merchants were not all that important in Iberia. The whole merchant class was wiped out in 1492 when the Moors and Jews were expelled. (Reading The History of Medieval Spain again... but covering Visigoth era now.) Jinettes actually probably come from Visigothic horse warriors. They used "darts" and preferred to fight horsed.

I'm just playing on in my game, but sort of thrashing now. Not resolving any conflicts. The Mongols are still avoiding fights (unless I flat out attack them). Fending off lots of sieges on several fronts. But starting to build up a couple of stacks to finish Egypt and PS. Probably Venice after that. Then Hungary. HA are holding off Hungary and Poland for now. Russia threw one stack at Caffa, but hasn't come back for more.

I'm ready for a new game. But haven't even tried cannons yet, nor guns. Have made some handgunners at Genoa. Don't really know how to use them. Need to search for some info, I guess. If it's besieged again, I can see if they work from walls.

I do want to do a couple of adjustments before starting a new game, if the patch is gonna be another week (which I suspect). Have to remember what. I think I like the agent speed okay now. Since the AI gets the speed too, it's fair. And the AI does seem to use it. A few more spies and assassins would be good, but not sure one per level is right. Maybe 1 at the first level, another spy at level 3, another assassin at level 4. And if anyone goes to level 5, one more of each. That's potentially 3 per city built up to that level, but generally speaking will mean 2 of each. So that doubles the pool until very late.

The AI is flat annoying in its use of them. But they are handy, and you need them to counter the AI (which outnumbers the player until very late). Keeps them from being too dominant, but allows effective focussed campaigns.

Is ship speed gated by the units they are transporting? I need to play with that, I guess. I'd like to see double the speed. That cuts both ways. The AI will be able to hit the player's fleets from way out in the FOW. But also allows faster movement. Waiting the 7-15 turns to make long moves, like crusades, is boring.

Hope you're licking that cold. :yes:

vonsch

03-23-2007, 05:12

Okay, tried the lancers again, and really needed them. Routed one of three off the map, but they did serious disruption. I was besieging Sofia with my HA stack just to tie it up until the actual siege train arrived. They sallied on me. Good stack. With the towers compressing the room I had, was dangerous. But set up in a corner on a hill, took HA off skirmish, and shot them up. Then the lancers went into wedge and ripped through the spears and pavises nicely. Did a couple of passes and they were all routed. My general threw in a couple straight charges too, but he was just icing.

They do require micromanagement, but they can be effective. They also take serious losses, but more than carry their weight. Qualified as a heroic victory, so it was stacked against me (and that's not counting those towers on a citadel!) I took probably half of my losses just getting set up since those towers were plugging away at me while I scrambled.

So, of course, I walked into the citadel after that. Always nice. That leaves Iasi and Zagreb. Think I'll see if I can force the Hungarians to become vassals.

Still beating back PS. But their stack count is dropping and mine is increasing there. Still chasing the Mongols in circles.

I may start buying lands. Up to a quarter mil now.

Heh, pulled 3 part stacks of Mongols that time. Hairy. Lost 250, but they lost 700. My general lost his whole bodyguard. Ransom amount is 20088. New record. Caught the Khan himself. They ransomed him, wow! Time for replacements again. That was a lot of losses for me. Had one unit rout, but it rallied. These guys are getting tough! I really should have these two generals going for dread. Seems in character fighting Mongols to a standstill.

Sicily decided they want Ajaccio. They may get it, but it will cost them Palermo, I think. Italy is getting pretty black from all the devastation.

Ajaccio held with some reinforcements. Zagreb fell to another seaborne invasion. Budapest and Ragusa are serially sieged. Rome was last turn, but PS is a bit short of troops. I see one full stack left and it hasn't moved from in front of Rome where it's sat since I took Rome. Bologne is begging capture, but don't have the troops quite ready since I can't strip garrisons. Milan, where the Pope is sitting, has a light garrison too. Just a matter of troops again. Same for Venice, though it's about 1/3 stack. Venice keeps sending the garrison to Ragusa.

Palermo will be mine in two turns, I think. Three fleets converging. Not much garrison though, just my cat is on one fleet, troops on anther, and a third is coming to run off the Sicilian fleet.

Preparing a massaive move into Iasi to see if Hungary begs peace and will become a vassal. If not, I'll just take it. That will leave Durazzo and Napoli behind my lines. Russia tried Tbilisi a couple turns ago. Not even close.

And the Mongols still roam. Almost ready to take another bite of them. HA army heading back to Yerevan to pick up a couple units that got replacements there, then angling NW to pick a fight. The chickens won't attack my infantry army that I leave on river crossings and bridges going. "Nyah, nyah, you Mongols are little boy bullies, afraid of a standup fight!" They are south of Trebizond, and maybe heading towards Tbilisi. Wish they'd go annoy the Russians. I bet they could wreak some havoc to the NW.

Have some gunners waiting a chance to try them in Italy. Genoa hasn't been besieged in a while, so no chance to see how they work on the walls.

This time Venice using one and a half stacks to tackle Ragusa, it appears. Assuming I'm reading the ZOC right.

Another battle with Mongols, two part stacks but I got 2:1 odds. They are pretty battered. Night battle or it would have been 1:1 odds with three part stacks. One more set of replacements and if no third wave turns up, the Mongols have fizzled. They never sieged a city. There's one stack with about 350 left, the other 3 are about 50 each.

The Poles actually just bypassed Budapest to try to hit Zagreb. Nice move. But it met my HA army before it got there.

Carl

03-23-2007, 13:08

The AI seems to stop building ships once the seas are cleared. Or maybe it's because they are prioritizing land units since they are in wars. Hurts them in that they aren't contesting my sea movements though, and the Med is the spoke on the world's wheel, pretty much.

I noticed a similar thing, the trouble is that ships have a very high price for their strength value so they aren't high on the AI's recruitment list, i'm gonna try changing that by lowering base prices and fiddling with upkeep/pool size/replenish rates till we hit a happy medium.

How about make the pool for those buildings 1. That way they aren't a source in the army sense, but they are a replacement source. And I'm saying make them lower end, but not THA level. Turkomen, desert Cav, etc. Arab Cav is OK for Moors, I think, since they are lightweight in general. But desert Cav there too is fine. Just having handy replacements would help Portugal. As it stands, Lisbon needs replacements shipped in from Pamplona unless they wipe out Spain.

Give a reasonable replacement rate, but keep the cap at 1. Maybe 1 per 2 turns. It's more to "top off" units than actually build them. This will give them a bit more of a role early. I think the merchant guild pool is too large anyway. The same theory applies there. It's garrison horse. Not a lot is needed, but need replacements if it gets battered a bit.

Ahh, right, that helps, you just want something that gives them a way of replacing losses on the fly, your castle remain the main source of output, but the cities can retrain/replace the odd loss here and there, a definite boost to the AI I'd say. I was thinking you anted a bit more than that with cities taking over some of the main production burden instead.

The merchant Cav idea isn't bad, either, but it gets away from the idea of these factions. Merchants were not all that important in Iberia. The whole merchant class was wiped out in 1492 when the Moors and Jews were expelled. (Reading The History of Medieval Spain again... but covering Visigoth era now.) Jinettes actually probably come from Visigothic horse warriors. They used "darts" and preferred to fight horsed.

Remember, Merchant Cav simply represents anyone with the money to buy the same equipment as a knight, but who is not actually part of the knight class, (i.e. the nobility), so their would be more than merchants and bankers involved in it. A Plaza De Torro would probably only be present in the wealthy cities so it's not as if their aren't likely to be plenty of individuals that fit the job description.

On the other hand a small Jienites pool for replenish purposes on top isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm just playing on in my game, but sort of thrashing now. Not resolving any conflicts. The Mongols are still avoiding fights (unless I flat out attack them). Fending off lots of sieges on several fronts. But starting to build up a couple of stacks to finish Egypt and PS. Probably Venice after that. Then Hungary. HA are holding off Hungary and Poland for now. Russia threw one stack at Caffa, but hasn't come back for more.

I'm ready for a new game. But haven't even tried cannons yet, nor guns. Have made some hand-gunners at Genoa. Don't really know how to use them. Need to search for some info, I guess. If it's besieged again, I can see if they work from walls.

Hand-gunners are pretty poor TBH, their fairly similar to Javelin infantry but with a shorter range and they can't fire over other peoples heads. The wall bug hits all Gunpowder troops though. Janissary Musketeers are best for Turks if you can get them.

I shouldn't be too much longer on the next version. Probably a day or two more as I need to check a few things.

I do want to do a couple of adjustments before starting a new game, if the patch is gonna be another week (which I suspect). Have to remember what. I think I like the agent speed Okay now. Since the AI gets the speed too, it's fair. And the AI does seem to use it. A few more spies and assassins would be good, but not sure one per level is right. Maybe 1 at the first level, another spy at level 3, another assassin at level 4. And if anyone goes to level 5, one more of each. That's potentially 3 per city built up to that level, but generally speaking will mean 2 of each. So that doubles the pool until very late.

Thats fairly similar to what I was trying out myself prior to getting cold LOL.

Is ship speed gated by the units they are transporting? I need to play with that, I guess. I'd like to see double the speed. That cuts both ways. The AI will be able to hit the player's fleets from way out in the FOW. But also allows faster movement. Waiting the 7-15 turns to make long moves, like crusades, is boring.

I think so and i'm not sure why. Wit increased agent speeds it doesn't effect the shipping of agents, but thats about it.

Okay, tried the lancers again, and really needed them. Routed one of three off the map, but they did serious disruption. I was besieging Sofia with my HA stack just to tie it up until the actual siege train arrived. They sallied on me. Good stack. With the towers compressing the room I had, was dangerous. But set up in a corner on a hill, took HA off skirmish, and shot them up. Then the lancers went into wedge and ripped through the spears and pavises nicely. Did a couple of passes and they were all routed. My general threw in a couple straight charges too, but he was just icing.

They do require micromanagement, but they can be effective. They also take serious losses, but more than carry their weight. Qualified as a heroic victory, so it was stacked against me (and that's not counting those towers on a citadel!) I took probably half of my losses just getting set up since those towers were plugging away at me while I scrambled.

Glad you found a use for them. Cav dos require a lot of care and attention in use post shield fix, but if used right is probably one of the most destructive options available to you.

Another battle with Mongols, two part stacks but I got 2:1 odds. They are pretty battered. Night battle or it would have been 1:1 odds with three part stacks. One more set of replacements and if no third wave turns up, the Mongols have fizzled. They never sieged a city. There's one stack with about 350 left, the other 3 are about 50 each.

The Third wave turns up 30-40 years after the second, and the second 20-30 years after the 1st. I've played with stack compositions as we talked about for the next version so you should find them an even tougher challenge.

Hope you're licking that cold.:yes:

I'm getting their, headaches are gone and medicine is keeping the worst of the cough, blocked nose and sore throat's at bay. Thanks for asking~:).

vonsch

03-23-2007, 18:29

On the bandit issue I brought up earlier. I am seeing bandits, but not a lot. And pirates are rare after the initial bunch. But I like it that they are not constant issues, bandits especially. So it's definitely a balancing act. Bandits are nice for training generals and troups while turtling, but they impede a push to expand considerably, if they are common. They affect the AI and player about equally, I'd say. The AI is pretty good about killing them if they are not way out of the way.

Pirates, on the other hand, are a greater impediment for the player than the AI. That's due to the player using naval transport strategically more. Pirates are also crusade killers/botherers if they move by ship. I think double the current pirates, at least, would be good. But bandits may just need a very slick tweak up.

I think messing with the stats on ships, including the price, may be risky. We might end up with the siege engine situation except with more sleets than land units. But the answer there might be limiting ship production more too. Since ports are valuable for economic reasons, players will always have lots of ports. It will make building a fleet of 3-4 a 3-4 turn operation, instead of 2 turns. That's fine. Do like I suggested with the racetracks and bullrings, make the pool 1 but allow it to replenish fast in this case. Let 1 per turn happen steadily.

Ships are a larger building enterprise than recruiting, equipping and training a unit so it should feel right too. You will have to back off the current admiral thing though. Otherwise the AI will have mostly 1 ship fleets, and the player will have fleets of several, so it may need more thought. I like the admiral thing.

vonsch

03-23-2007, 21:00

Milan is annoying me. Three assassins camped outside Genoa and they just brought in two stacks to besiege it, though that will probably be next turn. And their fleets woke up and are all over (though they will run out soon). I may have to take Marseille for paybacks. It looks ripe.

I'm at 40 regions, with two armies outside Iasi. Another is aboard ship to invade Kiev (Polish). The Poles are still pressuring Budapest and Zagreb from Vienna, but if they keep it up much longer, that will drop troop levels there and let me take it. Vienna still after Ragusa. Stack and a half besieging but no storm yet. It has 8 more turns. If they haven't stormed in 4, I'll send in HA to break up that party. Preparing to move on Naples to secure southern Italy. That will let me free up some garrison troops to pressure Milan and Venice in the north. And taking those will get me to 25, I suspect, unless there are some suprises.

Hoping to try hand gunners in the storming of Genoa. I'll set them up as flankers at the gate and let the invaders in a bit. I can put stakes there to break them up, and back my spears away a bit. Hand Gunners are as good as JA at melee, so no real risk to me, If it works, should be instant routs. Not that that's much different from normal! The naffatun usually have their morale beaten down by the time they enter the gate... if they even dare. Half the time they peek in, see the spears waiting, and rout.

I have a 10-skill spy in there now, so hopefully no more gate tricks.

Heh, Mongols retreating before my attacks. They usually don't do that. 2:1 odds, then 4:1 if I night attack. I think I'll night attack. Fewer losses. Maybe I can finish them. Only pull the front part stack. Have killed off a lot of their generals. Then should have the movement points to hit the next stack and pull in the tiny 3rd stack. Hmm, full moon please! There we go. Bit foggy though.

Very foggy. Darn, 3 got away in the fog! General got away. Should have continued the battle to finish him. I can see him way off where he retreated with 2 in his unit. It was a massive downhill charge into the bowl. They were all cav that time. Killed off the foot in other battles.

Took me three tries to force battle with the last two stacks there (not counting the retreated remnants). 400 left in these two stacks. 5:4 ratio. Probably heavy lancers and heavy archers too, their more survivable troops. Ugh, terrains against me, uphill this time. Uphill into the mists. THat leaves three generals and one unit, in three widely scattered stacks. Bandits!

One more wave, you say? At least now I'll have a stack that can go toe-to-toe with one of theirs, I think. All silver and gold HA. General is 51 though, hope they hurry!

Oh, in the far off cities racetracks begin to have use. Can pay for order, and at this stage I can afford to. And running low on things to build too.

I offered Hungary 300000 to become my vassal, no luck. So two stacks will try to convince them. Oops, big stack retreated. Oh well, I tried diplomacy. That leaves Iasi open to storming. 15:2 odds. I think I might pull it off.

On to Kiev and the Poles!

Milan or PS or someone is bribing my stacks of buildup outside more Italian cities. So... I'll just put them into fleets. Assuming they last the turn after being built!

I offered the Pope Rome and 300000 to become my vassal, still very demanding of me. He has not yet heard demanding! ~;) I think he wants to follow in John the Baptist's shoes.

Genoa has cannon towers. I am hoping to see them in action (assuming they work!) There we go, Genoa is besieged by the Milanese. They brought no siege train though. Even with 1.5 stacks, not likely to succeed with towers and rams.

Aha, here's the third wave of Mongols. Four full strength stacks. Maybe I can get these HA all to 3 golds. Let's see how they like boom-o-phants. Just found two merc units for hire.

Kiev is Turk. That's #42. Interesting, Venice backed off of Ragusa. For once they had a chance with 1.5 stacks.

Heh, paying England to attack Milan's rear. Let's see if they do it. They were are war anyway, 500 a turn will help their recruiting though.

Venitians are strange. They lifted siege, walked one turn towards Zagreb, then came back and besieged it again. Oops, heh, Russia married their general away or something, siege lifted, Russian general standing there.

The Sultan has lost patience with these infidels. He's executing all prisoners.

chickenhawk

03-23-2007, 21:01

Carl I have actually gotten some playing done the last day or two and will write some today or tomorrow but there is one issue that I want to get out there.

The AI is killing itself on sieges. It miscalculates the forces needed with the new walls and just destroys itself assaulting them. I am playing as the english on VH/VH. Three separate stacks of enemies, 1 rench and two Milanese have completely smashed themselves against Caen's and Angers' walls. They attack with one ram, one tower and one ladder. The ram and the tower burn. The AI then tries to feed all of its troops up one ladder in the face of the tower fire and good heavy infantry. I am getting kill ratios of 1500 to 10, literally. Is there any way to teach it when to quit?

Carl

03-23-2007, 23:17

The AI is killing itself on sieges. It miscalculates the forces needed with the new walls and just destroys itself assaulting them. I am playing as the english on VH/VH. Three separate stacks of enemies, 1 rench and two Milanese have completely smashed themselves against Caen's and Angers' walls. They attack with one ram, one tower and one ladder. The ram and the tower burn. The AI then tries to feed all of its troops up one ladder in the face of the tower fire and good heavy infantry. I am getting kill ratios of 1500 to 10, literally. Is there any way to teach it when to quit?

I haven't really looked too hard at the battle AI, I may be able to help the AI though in other ways. Give me a few minutes to reply to vonsch and then I'll outline some ideas of mine.

Hoping to try hand gunners in the storming of Genoa. I'll set them up as flankers at the gate and let the invaders in a bit. I can put stakes there to break them up, and back my spears away a bit. Hand Gunners are as good as JA at melee, so no real risk to me, If it works, should be instant routs. Not that that's much different from normal! The naffatun usually have their morale beaten down by the time they enter the gate... if they even dare. Half the time they peek in, see the spears waiting, and rout.

Should work if they get that far. The Combined Morale Penalties of both Flanking Fire and Gunpowder weapons plus the mass losses should see them really suffer.

However, since you have cannon towers their going to need a good solid 2 stacks to get through the gates. Those towers really ARE nasty, try t get some cheap peasants in so that you activate as many as possible, if you can go all the way from the front gate round to both side gates with them all activated. Some of those on the side walls can reach too.

One more wave, you say? At least now I'll have a stack that can go toe-to-toe with one of theirs, I think. All silver and gold HA. General is 51 though, hope they hurry!

They've had big buffs for next time in terms of composition, force balance and the change of all 48 man spear units to 60 has buffed their dismounted Lancers. I've also toyed with their Heavy Lancers/Khan's Guard stats to differentiate the two as they where identical previously. In particular the 2 full invasions make use only of Heavy Dismounted Archers, Dismounted Light Lancers, Dismounted Heavy Lancers, Mongol Heavy Horse Archers, Light Lancers, Heavy Lancers, and Khan's Guard. The mixed stacks, (that aren't Pure Cav), also include more/better Anti-Personnel Artillery, alongside the existing anti-building artillery. Each wave has an extra 5th pure infantry Siege stack that is composed of considerable quantities of High Quality anti-personnel and anti-wall artillery. The mounted Components from the mixed stacks are replaced by Dismounted Lancers, both types), and some extra siege gear. I've also changed Dismounted Light Lancers from full Spears to Light Spears, this makes them less effective vs. Cav, but means they suffer non of the infantry penalties of full spears, thus giving them a Sword and Shield equivalent unit, great for assaulting walls.

In other words expect some much more serious challenges next time around LOL:laugh4:.

Alright, time to cover the siege point a bit more. I think part of the issue is that the AI fro all reports isn't recruiting as many Sword and Shield Units as it does spear units, this leaves the AI very weak in sieges as Spears are several times worse off.

Whilst looking at the situation, one point stood out to me. Both Spears and Sword and Shield units represent your main battle line units who are part counter to a specific unit type, and part general purpose Infantry. Spears counter Cav. Swords Counter Spears, 2-Handers Counter Sword. Right now the Spears are beating equal price Cav about 2-1 and can hold their own with Cav Upton about 1.5 times the spear units own value. Swords on the other hand are often equal, or more expensive than the spears they counter, and as a result are only slightly better than Spears overall in the recruitment importance calculator.

Now i'm not suggesting we alter the Sword prices so drastically as to put spears at 1.5 times the price of Swordsmen. But a slight lowering of Sword prices, (I'd say somwhere around 15-25% off), would encourage the AI to recruit more of them without leaving spears too under recruited. Better yet, by doing this it raises the overall capability in sieges. It does also raise the power value of a given size army, but I can just raise the minimum needed for an attack and the AI will then be sending similar sized stacks of better quality troops at you. If Raised the power level required now the AI would spend forever building p before attacking. Money script or not.

The other issue is AM their are a number of units in the Swords category at least that are for their price much more attractive to the AI in spite of their weaker abilities, my reduction in the avalibility of these units doubtless helps, but still...

vonsch

03-23-2007, 23:44

Ok, here come the Milanese at Genoa. Says I have 2:1, but troops are equal, so my quality must be better again. Mainly want to see what the cannon towers do, if anything. Okay, this is getting annoying, with a 10 skill spy in the city protecting it I can't keep their spy(s) from opening my gates. That's just wrong. I have home field advantage. I have a general with good stats, and 3/4 stack of good troops. That should not be a spy-friendly situation. But this is 4 times in a row, I think. WITH my good spy there. Cities need to be a bit harsher on spies. In both directions. I also find it too easy to get into a city safely.

Wow. Cannon towers are deadly. Killed one tower, but killed about 4 units of troops too. The second tower made it to the wall. But gonna be short on troops to storm it. Lost 18 men, mostly to the cannon towers shooting onto the top of the wall! But they killed more of the enemy there than mine.

Yes, it's going to take a significant siege train to deal with those. Good thing the enemy doesn't have any cannon towers so far that I've seen.

Playing Atilla at the bridge in a blizzard. One Sipahi HA against a whole stack of Poles. Leading them in a merry chase while using up my ammo. Time to clear out, Knights Hospitalier catching up. Only 5:1 kills due to that charge that caught my Sipahi cornered. I should have checked which way was out earlier. That's a fairly serious stack. Hehe, it got cocky though, came around and attacked my main HA army on the other bridge, and that is a full stack and has a 1/3 stack more reinforcing it. This time the odds are my way, and I have a bridge. Let the slaughter commence!

Total and complete slaughter. :smash: Screenshots can't do it justice. I need to learn to make movies of these. I love the yo-yo motion of the HA as they charge in, spin and swirl back out as they skirmish away. Who needs Cantabrian circle? It's beautiful death in motion. Reminds me of the swirl of blood going down a drain...

I think I've been fighting Mongols too much.

Aw, Atilla the Saint, my governor of Constantinople, died. I loved that name. ~;) He was a good governor too.

Darn it! Those Milanese spies are good. About 6 fleets turned up off Corsica to impede the invasion fleet. But my admiral is better, he knows when to sail around. Can't drop invasion in place this turn though. May end up driven off. Drove off the largest threats. The invasion fleet can probably stand off the others.

Landed at Napoli, but not enough mps to do immediate siege. Wait... may be a way. Nope. Siege train slowed it down too much.

Milan hired a bunch of mercs and looks ready to besiege Genoa again. Now I have an 8-skill spy in with the 10-skill one. Hmm, maybe one more 10 skill to try really hard to root them out. Screw it, make it 3 10-skill and 1 8-skill spies. Let's really test it.

Heh, these phants are phantasic at killing off these loose Mongol generals.

Sheesh, another dumb Ai trick. I have Napoli under siege and they have a full stack, decent one, next to it. So they moved it off to kill a small rebel stack! Now they will end up rebels themselves.

Mongols are still wall shy. They need to go north. They'll get no joy from my cities. I am building a second HA army to deal with them, but will see if I can't herd them north first.

Got A spy at Genoa.

Elephants aren't mountain goats like Mongol generals. This one is way up where the elephants refuse to go. Have to get lucky with some arrows. Got him. Cost me in friendly fire though.

Marseilles is Turk. Exterminated the infidels. Saves on garrison troops. Naples is Turk. That's 44. Sicily taken out.

holycow

03-24-2007, 00:27

Ive been thinking re the towers and their effectivness? or over-effectiveness as some would suggest, to give them some balance how about giving towers a limit on ammunition if possible?

Carl

03-24-2007, 00:40

Ive been thinking re the towers and their effectivness? or over-effectiveness as some would suggest, to give them some balance how about giving towers a limit on ammunition if possible?

Can't be done, according to their stat line they only have 10 ammo now anyway LOL. Good idea though~:).

holycow

03-24-2007, 00:52

10!? they must be magic arrows.

vonsch

03-24-2007, 00:56

Hmm, Venetian cats hit wall segment a bit, down to 60%, then stopped. Two towers, ram and ladders charged. Would have been better to make a breach first. Hard to believe it ran out of ammo. None of it reached the walls that time. Ballista towers did the job with a lot of archer support.

I'm wondering if the limited ammo (the 10 that you mention) isn't working right for the advanced towers. The arrow towers may be unlimited, but the others seem to stop.

Hmm, this time they haven't. Odd.

Okay, turn 125 I grabbed Vienna with two stacks for the "victory."

Milan is building ships, so the logic isn't totally off. I think they have to upgrade to bigger port before the power-ratio is right to build them. I see carracks in Milan's port that weren't built last turn. (And just cleared the old ships out of the western Med.)

Time for food. Then I decide whether to tweak before I start another, or wait for 1.23. I guess I could play RTW a bit. Or AD.

holycow

03-24-2007, 01:25

what's in v1.23? honestly i've stopped playing till the 2nd patch comes out and see what it does to vanilla. right now just tinkering around w/files.

hey carl, from last week as byzantines, the byz spears were not getting the experience bonus from castle barrack? honestly this bug is what made me quit playing vanilla, started searching for mods that fixed the experience flaw from guilds.

Carl

03-24-2007, 15:35

Just thought i'd give you guys an update, i've just got Ballista Towers and the Papal Standing changes to do and i think V1.23 will be done. SO somtime later today with any luck.

vonsch

03-24-2007, 16:20

Cool. No rush. I haven't decided what faction to try.

You have a list of changes you've made?

Carl

03-24-2007, 19:36

Alright I'll try to give a comprehensive list but it's hard as V1.23 has included more taking compare to the previous version than any version since V1.20.

. Altered Faction Standing so that non-catholics suffer a steady deterioration in standing with the pope.

. Altered Ballista and Arrow Towers so as to make Ballista Towers Genuinely more powerful, and also so as to reduce the degree to which arrow towers destroy all incoming siege equipment.

. Altered recruitment rates and availability of ships and siege gear so as to encourage more of it.

. Played with tech trees, adding and removing various units from various buildings.

. Altered Mongol and Timurid Invasions so as to increase difficulty. Also tweaked a number of Mongol/Timurid units so as to provide a better level of balance, prevent duplication, and to increase the challenge.

. A number of other units have also had their stats or abilities tweaked to make them once more useful when compared to other equivalents.

. Some re-distribution of regions has taken place to aid the AI. However this is still WIP and some further re-distribution has yet to take place.

. The power of a number of garrisons has either been increased or decreased so as to increase challenge to the player whilst hopefully encourage previously passive factions to attack.

. Castle vs. City Income adjusted and the Tax effects on growth have been tweaked. Based on experiences Castle MAY now require some growth tweaking due to the Tax Growth tweak.

. Sword and Shield Units have received a price reduction to encourage their use by the AI factions.

I'm sure I've missed a couple, but thats all I can think of of the top of my head.

vonsch

03-24-2007, 20:03

I'm not sure the castle income versus city needed tweaking. In the early stages they are closer, but mid to late they diverge rapidly. My cities were pulling is 4 to 5 times what my same level castles were. The difference in trade is rather large, and city populations grow faster which boosts tax income (and the tax slider will move for cities). If you think there's too much money, specifically in the player's hands, cut the merchant income in half. The income there was huge. And it was not necessary. I was dumping cash into silly bribes by the end (bribing rebels just to avoid the need to battle them, since I was fighting 5-10 battles per turn).

Did you adjust spies? (and assassins, though I didn't build a single one)

What did you do with growth versus taxes? I thought the straightline 0.5% drop per level of tax in vanilla is fine. Just be sure castles grow with it set on normal until they are large enough to make last tier. You could boost the governor bonus for chivalry back up a hair to allow them to play a role, without being overpowering. It looks like it was 0.5 growth per 4-5 levels of chivalry in 1.22. I'd say make it 0.5 per 3 levels. So a 9-10 chiv general adds 1.5% growth. Running with taxes at normal, that would net to 1% growth with a good governor (before other effects).

Siege engineer and architect (latter may not need any) adjusted?

Bandit/pirate rates?

Those are the additional thoughts that occur to me, based on previous discussion.

Carl

03-24-2007, 20:23

Did you adjust spies? (and assassins, though I didn't build a single one)

:yes:

I'm not sure the castle income versus city needed tweaking. In the early stages they are closer, but mid to late they diverge rapidly. My cities were pulling is 4 to 5 times what my same level castles were. The difference in trade is rather large, and city populations grow faster which boosts tax income (and the tax slider will move for cities). If you think there's too much money, specifically in the player's hands, cut the merchant income in half. The income there was huge. And it was not necessary. I was dumping cash into silly bribes by the end (bribing rebels just to avoid the need to battle them, since I was fighting 5-10 battles per turn).

It wasn't player income, it was more the fact that I had cities with Merchants wharfs that where only manging 30% or so more income than a castle. Now maybe I just had some rich castles, i'm not sure. But whilst it's true that late on the cities out-perform the castles. It's early on where the difference actually matters as later cities are starting to take more of the military burden. Hence the period in which Castle vs. City income is important is actually the period during which they are very close to one-another. Later on I don't mind castles taking some of the economic Burden as Cities take Some of the Military Burden.

TBH a lot of it is down to Farms, you tend to put them up sooner in castles and they account for a lot of castle income.

What did you do with growth versus taxes? I thought the straight-line 0.5% drop per level of tax in vanilla is fine. Just be sure castles grow with it set on normal until they are large enough to make last tier. You could boost the governor bonus for chivalry back up a hair to allow them to play a role, without being overpowering. It looks like it was 0.5 growth per 4-5 levels of chivalry in 1.22. I'd say make it 0.5 per 3 levels. So a 9-10 chiv general adds 1.5% growth. Running with taxes at normal, that would net to 1% growth with a good governor (before other effects).

I've actually increased it compared to Vanilla as it makes he decision to use Very High Tax rates quite a considered one. It shouldn't hurt the AI too much I don't think as the AI tends to prioritize farms. What it does mean is that Castle average growth rate has dropped 0.5%. Add to that the farming changes, (I'm already thinking I was over Draconian before you mention it, it seemed a good idea at the time, but now...), and low fertility regions may give issues, I haven't seen any yet, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

If it does let me know.

Bandit/pirate rates?

Increased:yes:

Siege engineer and architect (latter may not need any) adjusted?

:yes:

Carl

03-24-2007, 22:41

How's it going vonsch? Any obvious thoughts?

vonsch

03-24-2007, 23:02

Those look reasonable on the surface. Have to test the economic changes by playing them a while to see.

I'm thinking of trying the Moors or the Russians. Either should have some poor regions in their early mix, I think.

Oh. didn't notice the PM. ~;)

Carl

03-24-2007, 23:28

Oh. didn't notice the PM.

Ahh, right. Don't worry about it. Should have said somwhere.

Up to you which you do, but I'd definitely appreciate your opinion of the Moors at some point as I'd like to hear what the play differences are for you. You've played them before and have an idea how they should feel.

But I'd be just as interested in Russia to see how that plays out vs. Poland and Hungary, they tend to expand west and south a lot so Russia theoretically has a good run at things.

Either way it would be interesting.

Right, just so everyone knows.

V1.23 has now been sent out, therefore all discussion unless stated otherwise in the relevant post/s will be with regards V1.23.

vonsch

03-24-2007, 23:34

Okay, got it installed. Moors it is. That will let me see how the relationship with Pope works now. Also can look at the building changes.

H/H as usual.

Heh, that 0 balance at the start rules out my turn 4 knockout or Portugal, i think. And since they are bankrupt too, at this stage, I can't sucker them into paying for maps or trade rights. Had to swap them TR for their maps. May be able to sell them maps in a turn or two for some cash, but should be too late to grab mercs and storm Lisbon. You did split the royals, right? So that wouldn't be a knockout anyway, just a crippling blow.

By turn 2-3 when my dip gets to Toledo the Spanish should have some cash.

Sending everything to Cordoba on turn 1. But will take some turns to arrive. My spy will need another turn to see what's what in Portugal.

Did you slow down agents. Or are the distances in North Africa skewing my perception?

Merchants Guild has no units now? I see the increased trade goods line doubled.

Growth rates look workable, at first glance. Can't see governor effects yet as none of mine have the stats.

I think no farms at all for castles is overdoing it. You could just slip them back a tier or two. In effect that means they have to have more population before they can have the same level of farms as a city. That's justified by the increased support for the castle infrastructure itself, but food has to come from somewhere relatively local. But this interacts with your growth rate change. A flatter line there would be required. (As usual, I think you overdo things first time.) 4 chivalry gets me 1.5% additional growth. Kinda large. At low tax with that governor and a bit of trade (no farms yet) Cordoba is growing at 4%. At VH still growing at 1%. I don't think that governor is good enough to see that performance. I still think around 0.5% for 3 chivalry is about right.

FYI, I'm running my cities on Low tax to pump them. Inhibits building a little bit now, but I think I'll make it back on the compounding.

My plan is to secure Hispania to the Pyrenees, then clean up the sub-Sahara and see what's still rebel at that point. Island hopping is possible. And Sicily will be an early enemy there, I suspect. We'll see if it moves into North Africa by then. I'd guess turn 30 before I'm thinking of moving east. Converted Algiers to a city. It's too far from everything to be a useful castle. There's a small risk in that cities are a bit less defensible. Probably not an issue before turn 20.

Being obtuse. No one is allowed to marry. Gonna try with just man-of-the-hour and adoptions.

Turn 5: Lisbon falls (spy opened the gates). Silly Ai moved all but the general out again. Had that small stack at the bridge, but an attack shifted it back leaving the road to Lisbon open. There's a half stack in the region, split in two pieces, but that won't be enough to retake Lisbon. And reinforcements are a long way off.

Now I clean up these armies on MY land, so no more rep hit for the moment. No alliances. Spain might have, but I didn't want it as impediment. France would not since I am at war now.

Carl

03-25-2007, 00:22

Merchants Guild has no units now? I see the increased trade goods line doubled.

I wasn't happy with the power of them compared to the Mechant cav the non-easternm types get so gave them and Scotland, (who have lost Merchant cav too), double bounuses.

Did you slow down agents. Or are the distances in North Africa skewing my perception?

I think it's distances and the whole area is some kind of difficult terrain too.

I think no farms at all for castles is overdoing it. You could just slip them back a tier or two. In effect that means they have to have more population before they can have the same level of farms as a city. That's justified by the increased support for the castle infrastructure itself, but food has to come from somewhere relatively local. But this interacts with your growth rate change. A flatter line there would be required. (As usual, I think you overdo things first time.)

I did say I thought i'd been a bit draconian a minute ago. Bear in mind low tax rates gives you the Bad Taxmen line of traits though, thats a pretty bad set of traits to get. It also badly cuts your income early on. You can ge round it if you have enough cities though. Leave one on low and the rest on High, (very high dosen't allow you to pick up Strat Chivalry points), but theirs not many that that strategy is viabile for early on.

vonsch

03-25-2007, 00:52

Did you boost desert cav's stats? Or have I just learned to use them better? (More like I use HA.) I just crushed that first army with 3 DC, 1 AC and a general. The AC took some losses (and the general may have, but those are freebies), but I still have all the DC, and they did enough of the work to get 1 exp each. The opposition was 1 mailed knights, 2 peasant xbow, 1 peasant archers, and 1 militia spears.

But the terrain was fairly level and open, so cav was in its element. I got them maneuvered them into shift while I was out of range, then charged to keep all the missiles skirmishing. The AC losses came when they got stuck into the mess, as usual. The DC used up their javs mostly on the MK, then charged the missile troops from all sides, who routed (or were routed).

I just don't recall the 8-8-3-8. All those eights look unfamiliar.

Oops, silly AI. Spain's large stack just outside Toledo rebelled. The King, as usual, is sitting in the castle. Why does the AI do that? There's room in the castle for them all.

No! You may NOT marry! Take all the concubines you like, but this is a meritocracy! Only the best will rise to rule!

Did you just give PS Florence, or has it already grabbed it at turn 7?

Carl

03-25-2007, 01:00

Did you boost desert cav's stats?

Not that I know of, but I'll check the backups I have and see if they match.

Did you just give PS Florence, or has it already grabbed it at turn 7?

It normally grabs it turn 2 or 3.

EDIT: Desert Cav are definitely untouched bar the Shield Fix and Morale Changes, I just checked.

vonsch

03-25-2007, 01:25

EDIT: Desert Cav are definetlly untouched bar the Sheild Fix and Morale Changes, I just checked.

Okay, thanks for checking. Must be my tactics have improved in that long Turk game. I'm starving out this fort with the remaining Portuguese southern army, and the remnants of the last battle, so I can hit them with cav in the open again. the fort's 3 turn wait makes that painless, only 1 turn more than storming, usually, and a lot fewer casualties.

t normally grabs it turn 2 or 3.

That does keep the Milanese riff-raff out of it.

The Spanish pulled everything to deal with that rebel stack. They have a decent stack at Toledo as a result. And 2 1/3 stacks of rebels spawned in Cordoba and Portugal same turn. Keeping an eye on the rate.

Sheesh, that reinforcement mission is SO bugged. This time I had one spears at Marrakesh, mission said "at least four more units." I built two spears last turn. This turn mission completed. That's two new units, and three units total there, so in no way do I have any combination of 4 for the logic (I was thinking it might be 4 total present, but no...)

Turn 10 global status:

Territories taken:

-1: Portugal
0: France, HRE, Spain, Venice, Sicily, Milan, England, Turkey,
1: Moors, Scotland, Byz, Egypt, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, PS
2: Russia!

I seem to be ranked 3rd overall. That may mean trouble.

I'm still cleaning up Portuguese remnants and rebels. I expect to jihad on Spain in about 2-3 turn. May be able to finish them if they haven't taken any more regions. I can jihad on Leon and take Toledo on the way.

That was very odd. I starved out the Portuguese fort. They never sallied. And the rebel stack near them has poofed, but it may be hiding in trees somewhere.

Looks like it's gonna be harder to use hudna on the Pope. Not much twitch in relations with my normal early slush fund. It isn't good for that long anyway, due to those nasty crusades.

Turn 15: Pulled a fast one on Spain. Called jihad on turn 13. On turn 14 one general who was in northern Portugal with the cleanup army joined, hired jihadis and moved north into Galicia to approach Leon from the west. Two more generals started recruiting. Turn 14 Leon was under seige. Spain had about 4-5 unit inside with the FH. Two 2/3 stack armies were sitting between Toledo and Zaragoza, pobably aimed at the latter. The other two generals and their armies moved north towards Leon, ending up west of Toledo. My spy was in the castle there. Turn 15 the two followup armies went dead east and besieged Toledo and the spy opened the gates! So it fell before the two armies could react. They can't reach Leon in one move. One of the two armies is garrisoning Toledo, the other part way along the N-S road to Galicia to come in the back door and support the seige. I'm hoping one of the two Spainish stacks moves, at least, so they aren't supporting each other when it comes time to clean up rebels.

Two pirate fleets turned up off the straits too. No more bandits so far. They feel a bit more common than last time.

The Spanish armies just stood there, so I went ahead and stormed Leon on turn 16. Spain is no more. Need to finish Portugal and clean up these rebel cities and the bandits, then I turtle and send south to pick up those two regions. I've avoided building military buildings mostly. The armorer line is the exception since it is handy to preserve troops. But now I'll upgrade Toledo to build DA for garrisons (along with militia crossbows). Then I'll probably pump Granada to become my long term troop production, along with Pamplona. Neither has many land trade routes so aren't great as trade cities. Toledo is. So's Zaragoza, though it would be nice to have a fort there to block the French and Milanese.

Oops, need to kill off some of these merc units, or disband them. Running in the red. And found that other bunch of bandits when they ambused a unit heading to Toledo for replacements.

Turn 20: Zaragoza besieged. After that it's Portugal, but they have a solid stack so need more troops.
They are blockading two of my ports. That's part of my red ink problem too.

Turn 20 update:

-2: Spain (gone)
-1: Portugal
0: France, HRE, Venice, Sicily, Milan, England,
1: Egypt, Denmark, PS
2: Scotland, Byz, Russia, Turkey, Poland, Hungary
3: Moors

I have a suspicion that Florence is causing a problem in northern Italy. All those PS forces may be helping to freeze Milan, Sicily, HRE and Venice. Let's see if any of them kick loose. Milan, at least, usually does, at France's expense.

I've slipped to tied for 5th overall. That's the negative treasury talking. I'm tied for 2nd in military though, and none of the top five are my neighbors, so may not be attacked for a while.

I need to kill off the Portuguese so I can make some alliances. I'm rated as reliable. I have a lot of trade rights, and haven't attacked anyone I allied with (but did have trade rights with Spain and Portugal, and the Spanish DOW came under the cover of jihad, so that may protect my rep) a bit. My dip just hit Turkey, so he'll hang around that area hoping to form alliances with my Islamic brothers. Then I'll try for Russia. They are far away and not apt to end up in conflict with me... and they don't crusade. And I'll try to get France to sign too. Make them break an alliance to come south.

Okay, Zaragoza is mine. And in the black, barely, after the mission payment. The income there will help. It was still a pallisade, fortunately. Though didn't help my upkeep costs problem! Full garrison in Pamplona. Need to sucker them out. Maybe they will come fight a small (but chosen) force on a bridge. Even if I lose, if I can inflict heavy losses... heh, I think Valencia can wait a bit. Not much risk PS or Sicily will steal it. I think I can wait 10 years or so for El Cid to die of old age. ~;)

As my dip passes Antioch I see Turkey besiege it. And get booted into the river. Holy Land all rebel at turn 25. My relations with the Pope are up to so-so, so the 100 per turn is having a slow effect. But FAR less. I'd be at perfect by now in 1.22.

Well, that was a bust. Tried to take out this rebel stack left by the Spanish conquest, but it's inaccessible in the battle screen. Have to get a bigger force and force a retreat. Ooo, suckered the Portuguese into a bridge attack! They stripped the garrison. Heh, they got 1:1 odds. And it's a bridge force I didn't think they would dare attack, a full stack. I was planning to assault their stack beside the castle to pull the garrison, this is much nicer. Great bridge too! Nice slope down to it so I can tier my archers and crossbows (all 9 of them!)

Well, that should do it for Portugal. Heroic battle at the bridge. Maybe 200 escaped of 1400. And Pamplona now besieged. Garrison much smaller, but still significant. But 1.5 stacks should do. Portugal is gone on turn 27. Pope not happy: relationship is now poor. That leave Valencia and that one rebel stack and then it's time to consolidate, build towers, build up the economy and a navy, and send these hardened desert cav into the desert.

Oh, I'm #3 overall at turn 30 and both Turkey and Egypt consider talks of alliances "very demanding." I am no longer at war. I am Trustworthy. What's up? That's a significant change.

Well, so much for THAT expedition. Earthquake in Marrakesh took out general and more than half the cav. And killed the spy and two merchants too.

At turn 37 Tunis has not been attacked, and that garrison is not very intimidating. Something is screwy with Sicily still.

Starved the garrison of Valencia into sallying on turn 39. That secures Iberia. Still working on second expedition south. My replacements had to come from Pamplona. French are just building up a stack at Toulouse. No conquests. Nor for England. Venice grabbed something, maybe from Byz, which lost one after gaining more. Denmark took another. Egypt is a flat line after Jedda. Pokand is rolling, up to 7. Hungary is at four, took nothing in last 25 turns. PS static after Florence. Milan is flat, oddly.

Population of Valencia was over 8k, but it's a wooden castle. That right? Not many alliances at all so far.

Carl

03-25-2007, 13:06

I have a suspicion that Florence is causing a problem in northern Italy. All those PS forces may be helping to freeze Milan, Sicily, HRE and Venice. Let's see if any of them kick loose. Milan, at least, usually does, at France's expense.

It does tend to kick loose, but at the same time it's my experience that Milan takes Dijon and Burn most games in vanilla too, so I wouldn't say it's at Frances expense. However your probably partially right about Florance not helping. One of the issues with it is that the Italian Factions seem to ignore the off-shore islands a lot. If Venice/Sicily would go that way then things might work out better, I also think Zagreb needs another look at, I weakened it but it still seems to take an age to fall.

Oh, I'm #3 overall at turn 30 and both Turkey and Egypt consider talks of alliances "very demanding." I am no longer at war. I am Trustworthy. What's up? That's a significant change.

I'm not sure. Whats your faction standing with them?

Well, so much for THAT expedition. Earthquake in Marrakesh took out general and more than half the Cav. And killed the spy and two merchants too.

:laugh4:

Egypt is a flat line after Jedda.

I'd bet they're heading for Tripoli.

Population of Valencia was over 8k, but it's a wooden castle. That right? Not many alliances at all so far.

Probs El Cid's Chiv thats doing it. I put it back to the default as you said it was too low at the old value. Old value was 0.5% growth per 2.5 points of chiv. Default is 0.5% per 1 points.

Not sure what up with Alliances, try bribing your standing up a few notches with Map info, (you get the boost even if they refuse it), and try again.

At turn 37 Tunis has not been attacked, and that garrison is not very intimidating. Something is screwy with Sicily still.

Damm, I wish i could figure out what the issue was. It's like they have zero aggressiveness in them. They've got a decent navy and often have a fair sized stack of troops at their capital, theirs no reason they should think they could' take Tunis. Do you think you could ship a spy across at some point and look at their stack? Their might be some clues their.

Carl

03-25-2007, 15:44

https://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5258/egyptv123t32yr2.th.jpg (https://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=egyptv123t32yr2.jpg)

Here's the world At Turn 32 M/M. I'm playing Egypt. Going for the African area and avoiding the holy lands as they are a mess with the crusades and Turks their. going to come into Europe via the Straits of Gilbitar.

vonsch

03-25-2007, 15:58

The chivalry/growth rate sort of works with the other growth rate adjustments, I think. Growth tends to be slow unless (1) taxes are low or (2) there's a governor with at least 4 chivalry to boost it. The pure dread players will have a hard time seeing growth. With a big chiv general, you can pump one pretty fast, then shift him to another though. 7-8% per turn is possible. But I don't have enough generals to do that and sustain expansion at the same time. I think it works out fairly well. Makes high level farms worthwhile. But need to see it farther into the game to be sure it doesn't bog down before huge cities and citadels.

Castles really earn a lot less with tweaks to both farm income and trade income. Overall not a problem, but you really don't want many castles.

I don't have spare spies to run around! So no report from Sicily for now. The Inn line is too risky to build in many places with growth as it is. Can't safely drop good generals in those cities.

My relationship with most factions is Reasonable. My rep is Immaculate. All done with no wars for a while and trade rights everywhere. And I did not have the money to bribe for a long time, but set up a 100 per turn gift for Milan to see what happens to relationship. I'm Amiable with Egypt though, and still Very Demanding when I mention alliances.

France has a 3/4 stack of sergeant spearmen and mailed knights, and one of spear militia, peasant archers, peasants and MKs sitting outside Toulouse. If it made a full stack, it could probably take Bordeaux. But just sitting there for 10 plus turns.

And Cagliari is 100% heretic. I can see a couple there from my fleet, and since no one had captured it or tried converting it, they have taken over. I'm staying out of that den of evil. Until I have 5 7+ piety imams to send.

Carl

03-25-2007, 16:02

I'm Amiable with Egypt though, and still Very Demanding when I mention alliances.

Amibile is actually negetive relationship, so it would be considered demanding. Amibile is roughly equal to -0.2 on the rep scale and it only goes down to -1.0. Resonable is 0.0.

My relationship with most factions is Reasonable. My rep is Immaculate.

What turn are you on and whats the regions situation as that sounds awfully high to me. you'd need to have occupyed a lot of settelments and released a lot of prisinors to get that.

vonsch

03-25-2007, 16:22

Turn 52. And have been mostly trying to ransom prisoners. That means they mostly go executed (but don't think that's a rep hit under those circumstances).

I had a dip in Russia, so I called on them. Rasonable/Immaculate. I gave them maps, but the option poofed after one attempt. They accepted. I made them a gift of 500 too. Then I hit alliance. Started at Demanding. I added a payment of 5000 and was at Very Generous (first time I've seen that with so little cash). But they still rejected it. And they stop talking when I try 10000. This is a 6 skill dip too, not a junky one.

Carl

03-25-2007, 16:34

I had a dip in Russia, so I called on them. Rasonable/Immaculate. I gave them maps, but the option poofed after one attempt. They accepted. I made them a gift of 500 too. Then I hit alliance. Started at Demanding. I added a payment of 5000 and was at Very Generous (first time I've seen that with so little cash). But they still rejected it. And they stop talking when I try 10000. This is a 6 skill dip too, not a junky one.

I'll look into this. And if they refuse once they'll allways refuse after that, it's a known bug that I belive is going to be fixed in the patch. I haven't a clue whats causing it, but i'll ask about.

Carl

03-25-2007, 16:55

Still looking for anwser, but just found this post:

I'm currently having a look at the files and want to modify the way diplomacy works: Mainly the cost of ceasefires, why alliances go from very generous to very demanding after about 30 turns of play (although reputation is same or better) and why demanding protectorates has a seemingly random behavior.

vonsch

03-25-2007, 16:58

Yeah, except they were very demanding on turn 5 or so too in this case. I didn't try with Portugal or Spain, but I was into France/Milan/HRE pretty fast, and I know I tried with at least the last two there. That should have been about turn 4-5. My first dip beelines for the Pope with brief stops to get trade rights in passing.

Carl

03-25-2007, 17:39

It sounds like somthings changed to make them demanding from turn 1 is al, now I wish i knew what was causing it~:(.

I've put a post in that thread asking for help on the issue.

vonsch

03-25-2007, 17:59

Looking at Sicily from a fleet. Palermo has a one unit garrison. Naples has a 3 unit garrison. I can seel a near full stack in a fort on the Roman border. Don't see any more. I could do a 2-turn knockout of Sicily easily. Just took Tunis and have a full stack there. Tripoli is still rebel too, so Egypt not doing much.

Trying to figure out if I have a hidden heretic. Some of my regions in northern Iberia have high heresy. Don't see any cause. Not really high, just mid 20s or so, enough to be a threat to new imams and to spawn heretics.

Found a French heretic in Bordeaux that may be the cause. He was skill 5 too. Chasing a skill 1 one that came up from Africa and is moving fast. Spartacus.

Just met Scotland. Got TR and swapped maps. Tried alliance, very demanding. Tried with 10000 gift, Very Generous. Declined.

Can see into the Sicilian part stack outside Palermo. It's pavise xbow and DBL. Not chopped liver. 7 units total though, a ways from a full stack. Bet it could have taken Tunis though. I'll run a dip over to see how poor they may be in a couple turns.

Carl

03-25-2007, 18:02

See if you can find out if they have a lot of Norman nights will you. they aren't worth a lot in the strength calculator so it might explain their terrible performance. Thats what's happened in my campaign.

vonsch

03-25-2007, 18:38

Rennes is still rebel too. It's a bit beat upon. Bordeaux still rebel also. I'm resisting taking it for the moment.

British garrison at Caen is pretty small and undamaged. 2 levy spears, 1 militia spear, 2 mK and one hobby, plus general. It's still a castle but has the pop for a fortress. All tier 1 buildings. Looks like they've only built up to a blacksmith. Nothing else. Nottingham is a castle still too. Wonder if England is broke. Yes, bankrupt. Something wrong in its economy.

Very Demanding alliance again. And they need the ally! They took 8000 and 200 per turn for 20 turns though. Odd. Maybe the cash will start something.

Carl

03-25-2007, 18:41

British garrison at Caen is pretty small and undamaged. 2 levy spears, 1 militia spear, 2 mK and one hobby, plus general. It's still a castle but has the pop for a fortress. All tier 1 buildings. Looks like they've only built up to a blacksmith. Nothing else. Nottingham is a castle still too. Wonder if England is broke. Yes, bankrupt. Something wrong in its economy.

Thanks for the heads up. That is weird, wonder how they managed to go bankrupt?

vonsch

03-25-2007, 19:02

No English navy in sight either. That was my first thought since upkeep on navies is back above zero (or was it 10).

Sicily is very poor also. But Palermo has upgraded. It has a cat maker, blacksmith, marksman's range, armoury. (can't see what the last is yet) Pop growth is negative though. But it's a citadel, so doesn't need more pop. Two Sicilian fleets with 5 ships total in sight of Palermo.

Took Tripoli but the heresy is at 55% and can't keep it out of rebelion even with a full garrison. So.l.. I'll take it again shortly. This time some rebels will die. And the Imams are on the way. Ooo, wait, Tunis has the plague, maybe the Wrath of God will convert the heretics! Heh, Tripoli was my 13th region. Naturally.

I suspect the castle income change hit England hard. It starts with one city and two castles.

Carl

03-25-2007, 19:25

I suspect the castle income change hit England hard. It starts with one city and two castles.

Good point, and whilst they aren't the only faction in this position, it does hit them harder than almost anyone else. Hungary is probably the only faction hit by this like England is. Everyone else has plenty of cities to make up for it.

Carl

03-25-2007, 21:56

Just had a random thought. i think i know why HRE and France struggle a lot to get going.

Upkeep on generals.

The bodyguard is costing 250 a turn and the general himself another 200, so between the 2 and the fact that France/HRE have 8+ starting generals, (including those that are about to come of age), they're loosing almost 4K a turn on them. Thats a good 40% of the money script just on generals.

It could certainly account for the a lot of the reason why France and HRE are always so cash strapped in spite of their money income, and if it was changed it wouldn't affect most other factions too much as they don't have as many generals early on.

What do you think though, am I miles off or on target?

vonsch

03-25-2007, 22:14

It's worth trying. The AI is pretty awful at economic development.

I'm done with the Moors, I think. I'm concerned that the AI is so passive now. I was attacked one time by Portugal (a surprise since I was on a bridge with a significant army), and that was the sum total of the AI attacks. Partly it's due to not sharing borders (except with the comatose French), I know. So maybe I'll try something with more borders and see what happens.

In the past the Iberian factions have always at trouble with the French (and Milanese too), so it's odd. The current game isn't very challenging as I know I'm in a position to explode economically, and after another 20 turns or so of just building up, I could roll over the rest aside from Jerusalem.

Part of the passivity is the persistence of the rebel territories, I'm betting. That Bordeaux and Rennes are still rebel (and I just saw the Danes take Bruges on turn 50 or so) are helping paralyse France. But Milan is a mystery. Poor it is not.

The bandits seems about right to my taste now. The pirates still feel a bit uncommon. I suspect putting up watchtowers may affect their spawn, but no hard data. It just seems that when I get around to eliminating the FOW around my shores the pirates stop spawning. But they do seem to come in waves. I kill off the current bandits and pirates (or the AI factions do) and there's a while before more spawn, maybe 10 turns. That's ok with me. Too many too often is annoying.

Tried to post a screenshot of status but Imageshack appears down. Will post it when it comes up.

https://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3166/10011om2.th.jpg (https://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10011om2.jpg)

vonsch

03-26-2007, 01:16

Okay, started with Russia. Turn 2 I got an alliance with Poland of all things. Was a Generous offer without any sweeteners. So maybe the window is just shortened before the known bug kicks in.

Russia is POOR. The net income after maint is about 150. And Smolensk and Riga are castles. And neither has a stable for Kazaks. I think Smolensk, at least, needs a tier 1 stable. Or Helsinki, but that's a worthless castle. Better to let that start as a very small town so it takes a while to grow up. Say a pop of 300 to start. Either that or give it a stable so it has some use (but that would mean upgrading it to wooden castle too, I prefer making it a tiny town.)

After taking Smolensk, net income jumps to 1000 or so. So it's not too hopeless. The main issue is that starting stable to me. Kazaks were EVERYWHERE before. They are about like THA in stats. The better HA come down the line a long way at Dvor Cav. Boyar Sons are javcav.

Btw, Dismounted Boyar Sons and Dismounted Druzhina are identical as far as I can tell. Boring.

Carl

03-26-2007, 01:19

I'm done with the Moors, I think. I'm concerned that the AI is so passive now. I was attacked one time by Portugal (a surprise since I was on a bridge with a significant army), and that was the sum total of the AI attacks. Partly it's due to not sharing borders (except with the comatose French), I know. So maybe I'll try something with more borders and see what happens.

Good idea TBH, with 2 of your major enemies mostly passive we can't really make a sound judgment on the Moors. What did the tech tree feel like though. Where their any glaring issues for you?

Russia might be an idea, you did say you wantd to try it and it takes a while to ge the stepees from what i gather and both Denmark and Poland should be bothering you so you should be just fine.

EDIT: :laugh4: pre-empted me.

Allthough if you have another faction in mind then fair enough.

I think Smolensk, at least, needs a tier 1 stable. Or Helsinki, but that's a worthless castle. Better to let that start as a very small town so it takes a while to grow up. Say a pop of 300 to start. Either that or give it a stable so it has some use (but that would mean upgrading it to wooden castle too, I prefer making it a tiny town.)

Good point, i'm not sure why I didn't do that i the first place. Probably meant to and forgot.

After taking Smolensk, net income jumps to 1000 or so. So it's not too hopeless. The main issue is that starting stable to me. Kazaks were EVERYWHERE before. They are about like THA in stats. The better HA come down the line a long way at Dvor Cav. Boyar Sons are javcav.

Thanks for the warning.

Btw, Dismounted Boyar Sons and Dismounted Druzhina are identical as far as I can tell. Boring.

It's the same in vanillia, i'm not yet sure what i'm going to do when it comes to difirentiation. I'll let you know when I make up my Mind, but ideas are welcome.

vonsch

03-26-2007, 01:32

Boyar's Sons use javalins when mounted. My first thought is obvious. Give them a couple javs dismoounted too. Let them use them sort of like the Roman infantry. No idea how they actually fought, but CA takes license with this stuff anyway.

Otherwise make one AP the other not and adjust the prices to reflect that. One can be for putting down the peasants, the other for crunching knights. ~;)

Heh, I wonder if giving Smolensk a stable will cripple Russia again. Those undervalued HAs...

Heh, darned council gave me units for taking Smolensk. I'd rather have 2500! Who wants more spear militia! Oh well, at least I'm not paying upkeep on them at the moment.

I'm gonna screw with strategy again. Going to go west, not east, aside frm Smolensk. Means Danes and Poles before too long. But Poles usually come up the Baltic anyway, so we'll see if they attack me. I'll head to Scandinavia as fast as I can. Danes will probably come after me there. That will be tough. They have the spear killers. And not sure how open it will be for cav over there.

These Western garrisons are HA fodder if I force them to sally. Heh, I think. Not sure what the motte & bailey shoots. Woodsmen on the walls would be ugly though.

Okay, Hungary took an alliance too. I suspect it's something due to the Muslim change. If that's it, it's actually okay with me. We'll see if this keeps up. Need to see if Catholic factions get Very Generous early on with offers too. Yep, looks like that's behind it. Alliance offer to Byz is VG.

I should probably go high dread just to see what that does to my growth. If it kills it, the penalties are too draconian. If it just slows it down a lot, that's fine.

Sheesh, turn 5 and there are Danes at Riga. Not that there are ENOUGH Danes at Riga.

Carl

03-26-2007, 01:40

Boyar's Sons use javelins when mounted. My first thought is obvious. Give them a couple javs dismounted too. Let them use them sort of like the Roman infantry. No idea how they actually fought, but CA takes license with this stuff anyway.

Nice idea, but we can't edit the animations so it'll look weird. Somebody's already done it and got that result. I was thinking something similar to what you suggested as a second option, but making one unit a 60 strong high attack low defense unit, and the other a 48 man AP unit with medium defense and attack. The destructive power would therefore depend highly on the circumstances. the large attack unit with a large size would be a brilliant killer of 2-handers and spears, whilst the AP unit would give you a 2-hander equivalent.

vonsch

03-26-2007, 02:07

Does Russia get interesting gunpowder units later? Thier roster strikes me as very sparse. Not many foot missle units. No sword and shield or real knight class. Nothing terribly unusual and little variety.

Barely able to build anything still at turn 7. Mostly clearing land as I get 600 accumulated. And converted Helsinki so I can grow it into my theological guild city. Mercenaries are out of the question.

Sheesh, Danes brought in a whole army to tackle Riga. I'm still trying to get there. This is going to mean war. That's what I get for listening to the council! Well, with any luck the garrison will do some serious chopping of the Danes down to size.

Ugh, I think I'm tired, just married off my princess without noticing. I needed her! I thought it was an adoption.

Now that I can see the Danish stack, I don't think they can take that garrison. 4 peasant archers, two militia spears, 1 merc spear, 1 Viking raiders, and a general against 3 woodsmen, 3 spear militia, 3 crossbow militia and 3 peasants. Should be a good fight though.

Heh, I was right, they failed. I have 2:1 odds against this sally at Vilnius, then I move to Riga. Need to preserve my force so hope my Kazaks are up to it. At least my general is decent. He needs more dread though!

Turn 10, Vilnius is mine. Netting 1100 per turn now. I executed the council. They kept giving me more troops and no money to support them. Spy got the gates at Riga, so I stormed them.

Everything out here is castles. And it costs 800 to convert them. Poles moving around Thorn and Breslau. I want Thorn. Good spot to defend, lots of bridges. Should work as a breakwater for invasions and makes a good forward spot to make troops.

Poles and HRE both after Breslau. Thorn sitting there still, hustling down...

If I set taxes higher than normal in the towns, growth goes negative. This is without a governor and any farms, just basic towns.

Bloody storming, but it let me grab Thorn. Now to try to settle in a bit.

Okay, it's turn 14, building a stable finally. Can't go crazy building, but netting about 4k per turn now. And will have some sea trade soon.

Um, Lad'ya is 500 upkeep? I think not! And holk is still 10, at least for Russia. Gun holk is 175 and Carrack 250. Suspect you missed something.

Carl

03-26-2007, 10:45

Um, Lad'ya is 500 upkeep? I think not! And holk is still 10, at least for Russia. Gun holk is 175 and Carrack 250. Suspect you missed something.

Sounds like I deleted a comma or something.

Does Russia get interesting gunpowder units later? Their roster strikes me as very sparse. Not many foot missile units. No sword and shield or real knight class. Nothing terribly unusual and little variety.

Yeah they get a few nice ones including Cossack Musketeers, the best in the game, and equal to Janissary Musketeers. But it is a bit of a sparse unit roster I admit.

Part of the issue is that at least one of their units, (Wagon Forts), was never finished, although it does have in game entries. I suspect their are other unfinished units lying around too that haven't had bits a pieces left in the files.

Everything out here is castles. And it costs 800 to convert them. Poles moving around Thorn and Breslau. I want Thorn. Good spot to defend, lots of bridges. Should work as a breakwater for invasions and makes a good forward spot to make troops.

I'll convert a few to walls, otherwise it will hurt the AI badly.

If I set taxes higher than normal in the towns, growth goes negative. This is without a governor and any farms, just basic towns.

The basic farming rate out their mustn't be very high. Could you look in the settlements detail scroll and tell me what it says in their, i'm betting their all 1.5% growth rates which is a base farming rate of 3. most regions have at least 5 and a few have 7-8 with a couple having 10.

Sheesh, Danes brought in a whole army to tackle Riga. I'm still trying to get there. This is going to mean war. That's what I get for listening to the council! Well, with any luck the garrison will do some serious chopping of the Danes down to size.

The Danes always seem to make a grab for that, it's their damm programmed navel invasions that do it. trouble is if we disable that they'll probably bother HRE/Poland too much and won't threaten Britain.

Turn 10, Vilnius is mine. Netting 1100 per turn now. I executed the council. They kept giving me more troops and no money to support them. Spy got the gates at Riga, so I stormed them.

Sounds like leaving Russia with a few K starting money would help out here?

Let me know how you get on with the Mongols if you get that far BTW.

vonsch

03-26-2007, 19:37

Not sure what number you want on the farming. Here are the grain icons for these places:

Vilnius (town now): 2, cleared land, 1% growth on normal taxes with 1 trade icon too
Smolensk (town now): 2, ditto, 0.5% growth, no trade icon
Novgorod (city): 2, comm farms, 1%, 1 trade
Helsinki (town now): 2, cleared land, 0.5%, no trade icon
Riga (town now): 2, cleared land, 1%, 1 trade icon
Thorn (castle): 2, no farming, 0.5%, no trade

Each trade icon is 0.5% growth, and the cities will have more of those in the long run, but not the early stages. Both cleared land and communal farms result in one icon (combined). So communal farms add nothing to growth, at least obviously. They may in some other fashion, but it's not apparent at this stage. They add to income from farming though, and may affect the harvest quality. (something that needs testing, I suspect)

I see no difference at this stage in castle versus town growth, which isn't what I think you want. I think towns should grow at least a little faster as they are organic in nature, and not AS "planned." The latter almost always lags over market-driven growth. The way castles grow is from influxes of outside resources. Town create their own.

So I'd say town may need boosting somehow, but not sure how the mechanics works. There is a hidden (from the player) modifier for fertility? I thought it was the grain icon, but that doesn't seem true based on the above. Most of the cities in Iberia have two also, as I recall, and they do a bit better. Or maybe they have better trade and that's the issue. I know I could run taxes higher without killing growth.

I think the growth rate for castles is fine, since taxes are forced to normal. The way to make a castle grow faster is boost trade icons as much as possible, and import a good governor. Or "grow" it as a city first, then convert all that local wealth and productivity into a castle by fiat. This is only useful early to the player, as later we want castles closer to the front and growing them isn't necessary when you can just capture one. Also, large cities with stone walls can't be converted. So they pretty much have to be grown under player control. In other words, I don't see this as a balance issue in the larger sense, just an operational/strategic choice for the player in the startup, just like choosing to place a high chivalry governor in a castle rather than a city.

Need to run some errands (mowed lawn already!) and then I'll come back to it.

The ship maintenance issue artificially slowed my attempt at grabbing Sweden. Waiting for holks as I can't afford the lad'ya maintenance! I'll check then if it's still rebel. Meanwhile, going to shift back east and try to take Kiev to seal off parts east from "allies." Need to get my dip down to Hungary too, and get them to ally for now. And HRE. That should give me some breathing room. I could grab for more Baltic cities, but that would extend me more than I like away from my center. And Thorn is a great border while I try to create an economy of sorts. What normally gets thrown at Riga and Vilnius will all hit there. Kiev is another matter, but it's already larger and I should be able to pump it to stone walls to secure it. Then I'll grab for Caffa too, and have a line against the central European powers. I can mess with taking the steppes later, and just build them organically, expecting to lose them to Mongols if they come north. I don't need to beat the Mongols to win. But it will be interesting to see how stone walls with reasonable organic defense (raised locally) do against them. Assuming I can grow them enough for the walls.

I think Vilnius should be a town, and Helsinki a tiny village. Smolensk is still Russia's first "castle." Riga can go either way. Kiev is a town, leave it that. The steppes should be mainly towns. Those were not castles traditionally. No economy to support that. I don't know how fortified the coastal cities were. But I know they were very important economically before long. That would argue for making them all towns. A motte & bailey doesn't much slow taking them over a pallisade (if at all). But keep in mind the AI needs for some castles, and split them 2:1 town to castle, I'd say. Or no worse than 1:1.

Oh, is the tax penalty one fixed rate for all levels? Or can it scale? I'd say +2%, 0, -0.5%, -2% would be interesting. Very high taxes should really hurt growth. People will resist moving in, even though they weren't given a lot of choice often, and those who can will leave for less taxes environments. And low taxes has the downside of both low income, and hurting governors, but it makes sense that the less controlled environment would result is faster growth. That would mean high taxes would still mostly allow SOME growth with the current fertility.

It's okay if Russia is a higher difficulty faction for players though. It seems to be doing fine as an AI faction now.

Oh, maybe part of the issue is simply that these towns start smaller than the main European ones too. Bootstrapping some trade and farming does nudge them into slight growth with high taxes. But Russia doesn't have much budget for that at first.

Carl

03-26-2007, 20:15

vonsch

03-26-2007, 20:29

Byz gets a lot of guaranteed enemies though, so it probably needs that. And Constantinople is on a lot of victory condition lists. If it's an easy faction to play as a result, no biggie. Nice to have a range. What's not good is if it either always gets taken out by AI factions or always rolls over everyone. I have seen more of the former. Never seen it become a big threat except under player control. I think your changes have helped it be more viable.

As to the Danes, yeah, I forgot they have those from the start. That's probably part of why they do so well now. Maybe you should actually tone down their money script a little! They seem to get the low countries and become a juggernaut. I see a lot of stacks of Danes about already. Fewer Poles and very few HRE.

Carl

03-26-2007, 20:38

As to the Danes, yeah, I forgot they have those from the start. That's probably part of why they do so well now. Maybe you should actually tone down their money script a little! They seem to get the low countries and become a juggernaut. I see a lot of stacks of Danes about already. Fewer Poles and very few HRE.

Thats weird as in my game they are stalled with only Hamburg in their hands. They have 3-4 full stacks wondering round, but are doing nothing.

Byz gets a lot of guaranteed enemies though, so it probably needs that. And Constantinople is on a lot of victory condition lists. If it's an easy faction to play as a result, no biggie. Nice to have a range. What's not good is if it either always gets taken out by AI factions or always rolls over everyone. I have seen more of the former. Never seen it become a big threat except under player control. I think your changes have helped it be more viable.

The problem is the AI seems to limit itself to so many units per province or so much upkeeps wort of units per province so that helps hold them back. but as a player I could afford to build and maintain 2-3 full stacks of very high quality castle units early on. Using auto-resolve I could probably blitz my way through most of Italy within 10 turns of that and then do the same to Iberia and Britain. I've also got enough money that all my allies are getting 1K a turn off me and i'm STILL making nearly 10K free at turn 30 odd. My allies are:

Russia, Egypt, Hungary, Poland, HRE, France, and Turks. All are Bribed to perfect rep before turn 30 and I had Very Reliable rep, that means if i'm careful about where and when I expand I can probably ensure they NEVER attack me.

Thats the real issue, with so much money and with trusted alliances in the game it's fairly likely that a player could avoid any conflicts he doesn't want, and finish any he does within a matter of a few turns.

vonsch

03-26-2007, 21:15

I've never played Byz. Do their cities start developed? If so, that's a money sink that's missing. Take away most of the trade buildings if they start with them. Or give the player a negative balance to start. ~;)

Russia's economy is very tight at first. Really can't build more than a build a turn anywhere, at most, at the start. But conquest helps expand the tax base and garrison units are upkeep free in cities (and don't need much early, as distance is your best defense, but that's where kazaks are important too). So I think the 0 starting cash is okay. Just don't want to see growth of cities bog down without a governor. It's okay if growth is SLOW without one. But should always be positive a hair (0.5%), even with high taxes. But it may be there now. What I wasn't considering is how slow I'm building trade buildings. Can't afford to build them faster.

Oh, and Russian generals are not a chivalrous bunch on the whole.

Heh, council keeps wanting me to reinforce regions. No thanks.

Personally, I like the economic dilemma though. Deciding what to build where is not a casual thing for Russia. Putting a grain exchange in Helsinki versus Vilnius can make significant difference in immediate income. The latter has more land borders and thus more trade to boost. And building ports waits until there are more friendly ports to trade with. Trade with cities without ports is pretty low. And need to get those trading rights going too.

But building farms to the max they can support is first priority. That means both growth boost and income... and the income boost compounds. Though, that first trade building does help growth too...

For reference, at turn 20 I'm running 5000 in upkeep and salaries. My total income is 9000. That's 4000 net. Still building mostly 600-800 cost buildings though. But they take 2 turns or less to complete and I have 6 regions. Novgorad is in the 1600-2400 series now mostly. And to expand, I need units, which means more upkeep. And I need priests. And another spy and dip would be good too. Merchants will break the logjam though, as soon as these grain exchanges come online. Until then it's avoid wars!

Heh, Kiev has a large (in numbers, at least) garrison. But it's a wooden wall. So gonna try to tempt them into sallying right away, and whittle them down with my Tzar if he doesn't die of old age on me. If it's mostly archers, should have a chance with Kazaks and him to make a significant dent. Then I can storm in a couple of turns. That's my plan...

I have a merchant there and no seeing any Poles so far. But am still about 3 turns out.

Heh, "tell me, do you always disappoint the ladies?" Getting a bit personal there! That was the Milanese princess.

Carl

03-26-2007, 21:52

I've never played Byz. Do their cities start developed? If so, that's a money sink that's missing. Take away most of the trade buildings if they start with them. Or give the player a negative balance to start.

Not really, only Constantinople has a port or market, ad only the first levels, the real issue is that even at ow level taxes they make enough from all their provinces early on to afford to build port in all their coastal territories that have them. With 4 Silk, 3 Marble, 1 Sulfur, 2 timber, and 1 Dye and 1 Wine to trade right of the bat and 4 port they can go from a decent Tax income to massive trade income inside the first 5 turns. Eventually Egypt will eclipse them on trade but they have it good to start with. And if you convert Smyrna, and Nicosia to towns and force grow them on low taxes you get another Marble and 2 more ports, and most of these ports can trade with each other if needs be. In addition, farms can double their basic farming income too, and with a decent number of provinces under their control it's not a low-level of income either. Give me 10 mins and I'll re-start a campaign and tell you exactly what the income/outgoings are at turn 1.

Personally, I like the economic dilemma though.

Agreed, it adds a lot of challenge, Byzantine is already boring me by turn 40 because I can build whatever I want and it doesn't matter.

vonsch

03-26-2007, 22:08

I've been playing at my Celt campaign in RTW/BI a little off and ofn and one of the things that makes it so different is the economic puzzle. It's really hard to stay out of the red until you learn the importance of running lean and being vicious about destroying buildings in captured cities. There I exterminate population (since I am not a horde and can't sack) and then retrain what units I can, then the next turn I destroy everything I can (except maybe advanced ports that I can't build) and move out and let the rebels have it. That's allowed me to fund development of the Isles and build up a decent treasury to actually start conquest in Iberia soon. I even had the forces to take on the Romano-British emergence head-to-head. But I'll do the same thing in Iberia for a few decades the beat the populations way down to prevent early unrest. And to clear out cultural penalties from too many advanced Roman-style buildings.

Once I start rolling in conquest in M2TW I tend to destroy buildings some too. Not trade buildings though. Mostly it happens when I convert captured castles. I destroy all the military stuff first (still not sure if those are automatically 'salvaged' when converting... another thing that needs testing). But I also will take out some I just don't use. And a lot of thieves guilds. ~;)

I think removing unrest as a real penalty has hurt the late game of M2TW. Having cities on the edge of, or in, rebellion gives the player more to worry about when expanding fast. And distance plays a larger role then. I haven't found much issue in running very large cities... except very early when there are major religious conflicts and my budget is tight.

If it's something you can control, a higher unrest threshhold in all cities and castles would not be a bad thing. But keep in mind it interacts with the tax penalties, and don't go wild. Another way to do something similar would be boosting the distance penalty a bit, if that's moddable. But that hurts the N Europeans disproportionately due to crusades and Holy Land victory conditions.

Carl

03-26-2007, 22:13

Got those Figures. Heres the Financial Summary for turn 1:

https://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1325/byzantineturn1incomefc2.th.jpg (https://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=byzantineturn1incomefc2.jpg)

Constantinople 1958 Normal Taxes
Nicaea 1311 High Taxes
Corinth (Castle) 1036
Thessalonica 1450 High taxes
Nicosia (Castle) 824

With Ports added to Nicaea, Corinth, and Thessalonica No Trade rights. Took 2 Turns from game start as I used Add Money command. I had 17K in the bank at this point.

Constantinople 2105 Normal Taxes
Nicaea 1742 High Taxes
Corinth (Castle) 1127
Thessalonica 1892 High taxes
Nicosia (Castle) 864

And the Financial Summary for then:

https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1821/byzantineturn3incomewittj6.th.jpg (https://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=byzantineturn3incomewittj6.jpg)

I think removing unrest as a real penalty has hurt the late game of M2TW. Having cities on the edge of, or in, rebellion gives the player more to worry about when expanding fast. And distance plays a larger role then. I haven't found much issue in running very large cities... except very early when there are major religious conflicts and my budget is tight.

If it's something you can control, a higher unrest threshold in all cities and castles would not be a bad thing. But keep in mind it interacts with the tax penalties, and don't go wild. Another way to do something similar would be boosting the distance penalty a bit, if that's moddable. But that hurts the N Europeans disproportionately due to crusades and Holy Land victory conditions.

I don't think I can control the rebellion point, but I can make various unrest penalties larger, which should help matters.

Heh, "tell me, do you always disappoint the ladies?" Getting a bit personal there! That was the Milanese princess.

:laugh4: Haven't heard that one before:smash:.

vonsch

03-26-2007, 22:18

Yeah, that's pretty good income for that early. That's just a rich area, as is Italy. I'm not sure you should do much though. It's okay for it to be an easy faction for the player. The only reason to change it is if you think it's behind the problems with Venice and Sicily. But I doubt that it is. It seems fairly balance with Turkey now. And Hungary is always gonna be a hard faction, since it's surrounded and poor. (Unlike Milan and Venice, which are, or should be, rich!)

One way to increase the difficulty of Byz is to improve Sicily and Venice.

Hmm, I need Halych. The e-w roads run through there along what should be my border. ~;) Wonder if Poland will sell it (not that I can afford it at the moment!)

Darn, one move from Kiev the Grand Duke croaked. Gonna have to do it the hard way. Hungary is picking fights. First Byz, now the Turks. Interesting. Only turn 24 too. Must have soaked up the local rebs fast. At least they should be anxious for an alliance... and distracted. My dip is a long way off. These princesses keep waylaying him. Or something. Since they are from far off places, makes sense to catch them all at Hamburg.

Heh, 3 kazaks and a low level general provoked a sally at Kiev. Now to shoot them up a bit. Big stack arrives next turn, though I guess it's possible I won't need them. It gives me 2:3 odds, so if they chase me far enough I could possible get in if the gates are still open. My spy had them open. Lots of militia archers. If I can keep them moving, they can't shoot. And my kazaks can take out the spears if ammo holds.

Heh, gates wouldn't open. The archers all died rather than go through the gate. Hadn't seen that before. My general went from no experience to one gold chevron. Most of my casualties (general down to 7 from 21, and lost about 1 unit of kazaks spread among the three) were the darned towers when they got close enough to activate them from outside. Routing units! Seems wrong. But nothing you can do about that, I suspect. But I can walk in pretty much with the big stack almost there. And it can move on, see if Iasi is still rebel. It's all spear and archer militia and the FL. Only other thing I can make so far is kazaks, which I will now start doing steadily since they will be recruited with max armor (saves on retraining costs).

They keep coming out in bedraggled clumps. If I can rout them all at once... down to 4 in general's unit, got too close chasing routers again. But charges from all sides with kazaks rout them nicely. Even completely exhausted, as they are. Don't think they get any stamina.

That's the first time I've done this as a deliberate ploy. It's very eastern. Sucker them out thinking they have superior force, shoot them to shreads, then starve the remnants, or just ride in, depending on the outcome.

Heh, at that state where they come to the gate, step out, see me a mile off and rout back in. Time ran out. Draw. I killed 322 and captured another 452. With 141 men. Lost 50. Still never been paid a ransom by rebels, and that was 2019 I could use. The garrison is down to 95 MS and 49 MA, and the main force has arrived. Kiev is mine as soon as the rams and ladders are built.

Carl

03-27-2007, 00:55

Hungary is picking fights. First Byz, now the Turks. Interesting. Only turn 24 too.

Strange, must be navel somehow as the AI code specificlly prevents AI attacks on each other prior to turn 30. They are simply incapable of launching such attacks. Before I quite my Byzantine game. France did finally take Rennes about Turn 34 with the General's upkeep change.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 01:59

Oh, good about France. Did you decrease the upkeep? Or the generals? I guess the generals would reappear pretty fast though.

Hungary starts with landlocked regions, so they must have grabbed Iasi or Bucharest pretty fast, or Sophia. Then build a port, and ships... and blockade. Possible. Haven't seen it before.

Turn 28, 13k at start of turn. Very thin military. I rank 8th overall, I think. 7 regions, doing okay on that one. And as region count goes, the steppes should be mine until the Mongols come. That's 5 more when I get round to it. Darn, Hungarians have Iasi. The Thorn-Halych-Iasi line is nice defensively because the roads run nicely among them. Once the real wars start, those will be my first targets.

But for now, Go east, young man! I just had a son mature, Ivan. He's a natural 5 star general. Gotta get him some dread and see if he can become Ivan the Terrible. He's lazy though. Born night fighter too. I think I'll send him east. The long marches will do him good. Logistics can counter lazy.

It's interesting. Turn 31. Treasury up to 18k. The main reason it's climbing is that I can't build because growth is slow. But a couple of towns will hit city size soon, and it also means I can hire more troops and move east. And maybe talk Hungary into selling me Iasi. I'd love a second castle production center there. Not that 18k is a large treasury, just that it's growing. And I've hired 10 kazaks in that time too.

Oh, it just occurred to me that buth Byz and Russia lack an easy mechanic for gaining piety. No jihad nor crusade. That won't help them with managing growth (mostly a Russian issue though). Not that they were much good at it historically.

Milan just made France a vassal. ~;) (turn 37) Russia is ranked 4th overall. Largest in territory. Loads of alliances. Hungary broke off when I tried to buy Iasi, but they came around and are allies again. I haven't tried to buy Iasi again. Probably need more treasury.

Carl

03-27-2007, 12:24

Hungary starts with landlocked regions, so they must have grabbed Iasi or Bucharest pretty fast, or Sophia. Then build a port, and ships... and blockade. Possible. Haven't seen it before.

They always get Sofia in my campaigns, even as Byzantine I can't get enough troops together to get it before they do!

Oh, good about France. Did you decrease the upkeep? Or the generals? I guess the generals would reappear pretty fast though.

I cut the Upkeep for the bodyguards to zero. I'm going to do the same to the wage cost of the generals themselves.

Probably need more treasury.

If they're below a certain number of regions they simply won't give one up unless you offer them plenty of money and another region to replace their lost one.

I just tried starting a campaign as Milan with altered Unrest values. Within 5 turns most of France and HRE had gone rebel.

So A) I don't think we can really increase the unrest too much, (despite it feeling quite good as a player), as it hurts the AI too much, and B) i'm now convinced the issue with France/HRE is that they have such high unrest even with default penalties that they can't make any real money and as a result thats whats slowing them down. the effects of the upkeep changes with regards gens only seem to confirm this.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 17:03

Do HRE and France have something that boosts their unrest? Or is it regional? Sounds like whatever is boosting it needs to be toned down.

Or give them a perpetual money script. The cash alone can't keep AI factions alive, they need production sites too, so the player can still beat them (and the other AI factions can too, it seems). But maybe you can keep them in the game better, at least. Doesn't mean they will get aggressive enough to do well though.

Hungary always getting Sophia is not a bad thing, I think. It's making them a threat. And it's not crippling Byz that I can see.

Maybe the York garrison should go back to vanilla so England gets it. That might bootstrap England better. Scotland is just doing too well by comparison.

Carl

03-27-2007, 20:36

Maybe the York garrison should go back to vanilla so England gets it. That might bootstrap England better. Scotland is just doing too well by comparison.

Bad idea, as if England Gets York it also gets Canveron by default, and even with a heavily reduced Garrison, Dublin takes a bit to fall, it's tough in vanilla anyway and in fact is only a couple of units above vanilla now.

Much better would be to further de-buff the powerful Canveron Garrison.

England's real issue is the way the English Channel splits it's forces in 2. Half of them are across the channel at the start of the game and that really slows England down on the isles. if I moved a Significant chunk of them over into London I think England would do better.

That and Scotland has much higher quality starting forces, as a result it's in a much better position to grab York regardless of the Garrison.

York needs to be made a town, as does Dublin i think.

Hungary always getting Sophia is not a bad thing, I think. It's making them a threat. And it's not crippling Byz that I can see.

I'd agree.

Or give them a perpetual money script. The cash alone can't keep AI factions alive, they need production sites too, so the player can still beat them (and the other AI factions can too, it seems). But maybe you can keep them in the game better, at least. Doesn't mean they will get aggressive enough to do well though.

I'd rather not go the infinite money route, but they are definitely in a much better position IMHO with generals costing nothing in upkeep for their bodyguards or in wages for the guy himself. HRE is doing great in fact. France is a bit more so-so but I think it's getting their, it's just slower than the rest. Portugal even made an attack on Bordeaux that succeeded before turn 20. My guess is the troops per province limit is upkeep based which means that the 900 less upkeep on 2 generals is allowing them to Field a slightly larger force and thats helping them out considerably.

Do HRE and France have something that boosts their unrest? Or is it regional? Sounds like whatever is boosting it needs to be toned down.

It's a case of poor trade (so they don't seem to be wiling to keep as many troops as someone with good trade), lots of regions (so lots of garrisons), and lots of targets they send stacks after. In effect they never have enough troops for all their attacks whilst leaving a good enough Garrison to keep unrest down. Add to that a lack of Pop boom happiness factors and trade happiness factors because of lower trade and poor basic fertility and you have issues.

Just had a random idea. Cutting all Cav from starting forces for all factions would cut upkeep tremendously. that would especially help HRE/France as they have a lot of Cav in their forces, and at nearly double the upkeep of most other foot troops of that time period and a fraction of the strength calculator and Garrison value of said troops it's killing some factions. probs the same for Portugal too thinking about it.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 20:58

England's real issue is the way the English Channel splits it's forces in 2. Half of them are across the channel at the start of the game and that really slows England down on the isles. if I moved a Significant chunk of them over into London I think England would do better.

That and Scotland has much higher quality starting forces, as a result it's in a much better position to grab York regardless of the Garrison.

York needs to be made a town, as does Dublin i think.

I agree on the last point, definitely.

And as to the first, well, you see how I play England. So it would help ME about 2 turns, but would probably make the AI a LOT more competitive. It has Caen to build more units with on the continent once it's stabilized on the main Isle, at least... or lost to the Scots. Leave Caen with a basic garrison, Robert and a couple militia and maybe a peasant archer, just enough to hold off a light Frog swarm. It's a castle, it has organic defenses. move the cav and rest to Nottingham. That gives the English the strike force to hit York and compete. If they lose out at York, maybe they can take Caernavon. Debuffing that garrison a bit wouldn't hurt. Leave Dublin at current levels so neither has an easy shot. Scotland has the advantage of a land bridge there, but they seem to often attack that before York (or used to). If Scotland takes Dublin and England York/Caernavon, it should be interesting. Or Scotland Dublin and York. England gets, at a minimum, an income boost from Caen.

And the changes won't make it THAT much easier for the player as England.

Just had a random idea. Cutting all Cav from starting forces for all factions would cut upkeep tremendously. that would especially help HRE/France as they have a lot of Cav in their forces, and at nearly double the upkeep of most other foot troops of that time period and a fraction of the strength calculator and Garrison value of said troops it's killing some factions. probs the same for Portugal too thinking about it.

This worries me with Muslim and HA factions. They already are hurt there with the wall removals. I understand the idea, but if we do that, need to find a way to let the cav dependent (and this includes France) more easily adjust to cav armies when they can afford it. It's a lot less fun for the player to have to wait for the sort of force he's supposed to start with. Like longbows for England, etc. I know not having kazaks easily is affecting my enjoyment of Russian. It was turn 30 before I could sensibly start building them. I had 3-4 to start. Take those away and I may as well play... Denmark.

Carl

03-27-2007, 21:18

I agree on the last point, definitely.

And as to the first, well, you see how I play England. So it would help ME about 2 turns, but would probably make the AI a LOT more competitive. It has Caen to build more units with on the continent once it's stabilized on the main Isle, at least... or lost to the Scots. Leave Caen with a basic garrison, Robert and a couple militia and maybe a peasant archer, just enough to hold off a light Frog swarm. It's a castle, it has organic defenses. move the Cav and rest to Nottingham. That gives the English the strike force to hit York and compete. If they lose out at York, maybe they can take Caernavon. Debuffing that garrison a bit wouldn't hurt. Leave Dublin at current levels so neither has an easy shot. Scotland has the advantage of a land bridge there, but they seem to often attack that before York (or used to). If Scotland takes Dublin and England York/Caernavon, it should be interesting. Or Scotland Dublin and York. England gets, at a minimum, an income boost from Caen.

And the changes won't make it THAT much easier for the player as England.

Glad they all sound good to you.

This worries me with Muslim and HA factions. They already are hurt there with the wall removals. I understand the idea, but if we do that, need to find a way to let the Cav dependent (and this includes France) more easily adjust to Cav armies when they can afford it. It's a lot less fun for the player to have to wait for the sort of force he's supposed to start with. Like longbows for England, etc. I know not having kazaks easily is affecting my enjoyment of Russian. It was turn 30 before I could sensibly start building them. I had 3-4 to start. Take those away and I may as well play... Denmark.

TBH I think only Russia has serious issues here, as everyone else can make enough money and has enough starting castles to make fairly large amounts of Cav when they want to (it's also worth bearing in mind that Cav, (and especially HA), are VERY poor on the strength calculator and in Auto-Resolve), so it's probably better if the AI uses as Little as possible most of the time. Don't worry though, I am going to keep an eye on things. I've buffed basic farming rate growth though now, (I found a few castles that wouldn't' grow to Fortress or above size, re-introducing farms might cure this but I think it's still best to buff basics a bit), so you should get more income as Russia as you should be able to either grow faster or tax higher whilst still growing. It will still probably take a few turns to get going, but it Will be better than before.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 21:38

At turn 37 I can see Turkey has been beating on Sarkel (north of Tbilisi) and they have another small force there (no way that will succeed). It's good that they are expansionist in this direction too. But gonna have to take it first. My Ivan the Terrible (to be) force is north of there and will come south once it takes Ryazan to seal off the Turks in the south. Then he can swing up to Bulgar and Moscow which he bypassed to the south. The new Grand Duke is stuck at Caffa a couple of more turns, but has a decent militia force there if needed. He's still pacifying and building towers. Once the church and town watch are up he will be able to spring most of his army free. Gotta get a God Squad down there soon. Pagan outpost, prone to heresy to.

Helsinki still waiting to grow to large town size (1724 pop now). Sent a new governor there, but he has one chivalry so far so he's no help. I have to boost taxes to normal to avoid getting him bad traits, which counteracts his one chivalry. But he should pick up another point fast for the lowish taxes. Riga and Vilnius are actually a little ahead of Helsinki, which I start with. Riga is due to having a governor a while with 3 chivalry now. 2.5% growth. Helsinki was running at 2% with low taxes, and 1.5% with this governor (until he sproings the new trait.) Vilnius is running at 2.5% with low taxes. Ah, Helsinki is getting less road trade since it only has one land connection, so no trade icon for 0.5% boost. Riga is lacking that also, but the decent governor is boosting it 1%, which exactly counteracts running it governorless with low taxes. But in the long run a governor pays: more taxes and he gets good traits to lower building costs, increase trade, tax and farm revenue, and his charisma will rise if takes stay normal, which means the growth rate increases. The order bonus helps too.

Heh, one problem Ivan ran into: no infantry for hire in the merc pool out east. Was hoping to hire some ram pushers on the spot. I can starve them out, or use a spy though.

A thought: any way to restrict the biographer to FL and FH? It just wastes a slot on most generals as it boosts authority. Alternatively, make it nudge up something else in addition to authority. Maybe morale in leading troops? Or popularity in governing? The latter is probably more appropriate. Soldiers would probably see it as sissy.

Okay, not that's weird. Miroslav, who just got to Novgorod, picked up the Iron Fisted trait. Taxes are at normal, order is at 205%! If anything you'd think he'd get a negative order trait for running things so loosely. (Not that I'm saying he should, just that it would make more sense... I don't think there should be negative penalties for normal taxation, aside from revenue loss.) So now he's back to dinging growth. I don't know what the trigger for that one is though. It's probably a totally random trigger.

Carl

03-27-2007, 23:30

Spotted you teasing people in the patch thread lol~:P:laugh4:.

I'll look up the trigger for that trait as it's an interesting one. As a side note you can pick up strat Chiv at any tax level except very high if you have a green face happiness. On the flip side if your population is blue faced then any tax level except low will give you Strat Dread. Although if you have to set the tax rate to low and the pop is still blue or worse then you won't pick up bad taxman.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 23:47

I'm running all green. ~;) Gotta pump growth, so everything is set at normal unless there's no governor, then it's set at low. And still running positive cash flow now that my city count is up and I'm running a lean military (while I can!) Hungary is visiting near Kiev with a general and a short stack. I THINK they are heading east, but considering we are allied, and at perfect relations, and they have no military access, I'm a wee bit surprised. Don't think that short stack can take the small Kiev garrison and willing to let them try if they like. I have reinforcements 3 turns away or so in Caffa and Smolensk. And if they want to start a war, I do want Iasi...

My rep is up to very reliable. Definitely not moving as fast as 1.22. I have 10 alliances at present. It feels much better. Was just too easy before.

Ryazan is about to sortie or surrender. Either way they will fall. That's Ivan and his terrible kazaks. I had a marriage that dropped a new general in Caffa, so the Grand Duke rode east to take Sarkel. The Turks, as predicted, failed. They had a bit more support that may have tried to help too, but no sign of them now. The garrison is more experienced, but has a few less men. Be a challenge for the GD solo, but he can hire a few mercs if he feels the need. He has seven mostly virgin militia units against the garrison's eight with mostly 3 chevrons. And it does have a motte and bailey's defenses. In the open it would be easy, with his heavy cav taking out the archers right away. Tougher inside walls.

Poland is bankrupt. Stettin is still rebel, so gonna see if I can't grab it. Maybe Poland will swap Halych for it. I prefer the shorter line with better communications, though I'm sure Stettin is a better deal economically. No wars with factions for me yet, but they have been doing some fighting. No one eliminated yet.

Oh, Miroslav picked up "noble in rule" next turn, as I expected, so he's back to 1 chivalry. Should be 2 now though... Have to find some rebels for him to beat up on and capture and release a bunch.

Yep, Hungary attacked Kiev. Okay, time to find something to attack Iasi while he's besieging Kiev. Heh, GD hired all the mercs he could and stormed Sarkel so he can head back west. Expensive, but effective. I think I will make all these castles so they have a chance against the Turks and Mongols. They won't grow as towns very fast anyway, and too far to tie up a general. Let's see if they have any growth rate at all. Ugh, 0.5% at Sarkel, and it's below 1400. One grain icon. But the steppes are not known for fertility. May have to pump a high chiv general (somehow) and let him ride the route. We need to be able to disband inits for population ~;). Resettling serfs was something the Russians certainly did. As was giving the retiring vets land. Too bad they took out that mechanic.

Hmm, maybe each castle level should get a nudge in growth rate. Can one be attached to the walls? Or maybe a building, a conscription center? Or have you adjusted to handle this already?

Wow, Kiev is stormed first chance, and they have a 1:3 ration. Must have some good troops in that small stack. May lose it. Or may get lucky and burn the single ram. Ohoh, they have DCKs, general, axmen and spear militia. DCKs are the trouble. And no luck on ram and it's drizzling. Oh, wait, got the ram! ~:) After it started ramming. Wood walls let you keep shooting at it, unlike stone walls. Whew.

Byz declared on Hungary. They honored the alliance. We Orthies have to stick together! Not that I can trust those despicable southerners. And they are already at war with the Turks and Venetians. My relations with Hungary are still perfect. Seems odd, but it's really a measure of what they think of me, not what I think of THEM. Apparently they think I am easy ~;). They may besiege it again this turn. I bet the force ratio is still in their favor. But the GD and 2 kazaks and some rent-a-cav are arriving this turn and they have only the general ahorse and no missile troops. They will get plinked to death or into ignomious retreat! And I really don't mind a bit if those expensive merc troops end up dead.

Hmm, I've barely gotten kazaks and I'll be able to build Cossacks soon. I still say Kazaks need to come sooner. Can't you use them as the militia unit for castles instead of the militia archers and spearmen? Somehow? If it means building a more expensive stable earlier, and then skipping a stable tier, that's okay. That would mean allowing building the basic stable at motte & bailey, but nothing at wooden castle. Rest as is, except you could yank the basic barracks and have them be truly a cav/HA culture at the frontier. Leave all the eastern regions castles, except Moscow then. Change Vilnius, Riga and Helsinki to towns. This way western expansion will delay HAs, eastern will see them earlier (which models history and fits the terrain... they NEED mobility in the east... well, everywhere, but more so there.)

Sheesh, it takes decades just to get watchtowers to cover the east! Not to mention dealing with the bandits. Going broke again, even with some expansion. Partly due to retaining castles on the frontiers since I need the walls to help my puny military. Held off several sieges. Took Stettin and promptly had a full stack of rebel militia class besiege it. Heroic victory. Motte & bailey, my wooden castle was one turn from being done. Then Denmark decides to blockade. I took Iasi from the Hungarians and am waiting for them to sue for peace. I could take Bran too, but I'm pretty extended. Still haven't taken Moscow, but working on that while Ivan is towerbuilding all over the eastern steppes. I can see why some argue to just let the Turks have them!

Is there anything we can touch to change the whole ceasefire request is very demanding thing? Or is this in the code? It's annoying. An example: Hungary attacked me at Kiev. I beat them soundly, then they besieged again. I beat them, then obliterated them halfway to the border. Then I took Iasi. I obliterated an attempt to retake Iasi. I could easily take Bran and Bucharest as all the Hungarian forces are off threatening Byz. But I don't really want to. I can't afford to deal with more border. But so far they haven't sent a dip my way, and ceasefire offers from the player are ALWAYS very demanding. Silly. Ideally the code should look at the strategic situation and a battle history and decide who's "winning." My offer of ceasefire should be at least generous, if not very generous! But that part is beyond reach, I bet. I'd settle for basic ceasefire offers always being balanced.

I think the conversion rate for heretics is still too high. I don't mean the spawn rates, that's okay. I mean the rate they change good believers into heretics. They seem to be about 3x as powerful as regular priests for every point of piety, and they also move faster. I had one leading 3 of my priests on a 5 turn chase, and now the involved regions all have 20+% heresy, despite the three priests having more piety among them. Let's see, right now it's 31, 25, and 41 a turn after his bonfire. And all those provinces have tier 2 churches too. The priests were at 5, 4 and 1 piety. He was a 5 piety heretic. That's more than 3x as powerful. More like 5x.

It will take at least 10 years to clean this up, probably 20. And more will spawn in the meanwhile since the levels are high.

Carl

03-28-2007, 15:25

Is there anything we can touch to change the whole ceasefire request is very demanding thing? Or is this in the code? It's annoying. An example: Hungary attacked me at Kiev. I beat them soundly, then they besieged again. I beat them, then obliterated them halfway to the border. Then I took Iasi. I obliterated an attempt to retake Iasi. I could easily take Bran and Bucharest as all the Hungarian forces are off threatening Byz. But I don't really want to. I can't afford to deal with more border. But so far they haven't sent a dip my way, and ceasefire offers from the player are ALWAYS very demanding. Silly. Ideally the code should look at the strategic situation and a battle history and decide who's "winning." My offer of ceasefire should be at least generous, if not very generous! But that part is beyond reach, I bet. I'd settle for basic ceasefire offers always being balanced.

I've asked about it but haven't got any replies back yet. As an idea, get an alliance with as many of Hungary's enemies as you can, it considers the power of all your alliances bordering it in the ceasefire accept thing. So if you and Byz are allied it would make you appear much stronger.

I think the conversion rate for heretics is still too high. I don't mean the spawn rates, that's Okay. I mean the rate they change good believers into heretics. They seem to be about 3x as powerful as regular priests for every point of piety, and they also move faster. I had one leading 3 of my priests on a 5 turn chase, and now the involved regions all have 20+% heresy, despite the three priests having more piety among them. Let's see, right now it's 31, 25, and 41 a turn after his bonfire. And all those provinces have tier 2 churches too. The priests were at 5, 4 and 1 piety. He was a 5 piety heretic. That's more than 3x as powerful. More like 5x.

I'll tweak it and lower Heretic speed too.

Playing as england ATM, turn 48 and diplomacy is all over the place. got Canveron, but Scots got York. I got Dublin by sea though, and Rennes. France then broke their alliance with me, (also got Hungary, Poland, HRE, Turks, Russia, and Papal States as allies), was a double marriage alliance too. got a man of the hour early on vs. Rebels, is proving very useful. Got ceasefire and re-established my alliance with France. Cost me Rennes to get, then crusaded against excommed Milan, but thats was canceled next turn due to pope death. Still at war though, and grabbed Dijon, gave t to France for military access and got into a war with Portugal by being close enough to help France in a siege. going for Bern right now so I can replenish losses and Scots just hit Nottingham. stopped their as i got a CTD in the Siege at Nottingham.

vonsch

03-28-2007, 17:44

So if you and Byz are allied it would make you appear much stronger.

We are.

And on the heresy issue, heresy is also more resistant to conversion than regular infidels. So the problem compounds. I dumped about 10 priests into Helsinki with 39 piety combined. One turn saw 6% convert of the 31% there.

The growth rates of the cities is too slow. I can see it being slower than central Europe (or Western), but it's just too much more so. Helsinki hit 3024 on turn 61. Growth rate is at 3% and it will go to 3.5% with the next tier farm being built now. There's nothing more to build except the brothel which for strategic reasons I can't build there... except in this case I may have to. I can't built my target theologians guild until pop hits 6000, and that will be 30 turns or so more. So it will hit city size around turn 100. Vilnius is the same but a little ahead. Riga is 0.5% better due to the sea trade. Novgorod is growing at 3% with a 3 chivalry governor living there and normal taxes. So at low it would be lower without the governor. It's at 10707 pop. Smolensk is at 5388 and 2%. All not mentioned are running at low taxes. This makes staying alive very hairy, especially with (1) the LONG borders and (2) the huge interior to police and maintain. I still have 3 generals tied up doing bandit hunting and tower building, and the latter will take at least to turn 100. Kiev is at 1.5% growth with a 5 chivalry governor, but is building trade buildings still and tier 3 farms... and it's running at high taxes. Just took Moscow. 3787 pop, 0.5% growth, but it's still building wooden walls, so only has cleared land. I expect that to settle at 2% also at low taxes. It has no sea trade for that line of buildings. Caffa is 3660 and 4% at normal, but it has a 4 chivalry general (and had the GD there for a few turns at about 8-9 chivalry). It's still building tier 2 farms. That's also at normal taxes. Along with the sea trade, it appears to be more fertile. (And I thought it wasn't in the Turk game compared to the other cities south of there.) Oh, just took Stockholm too. It had a palisade still. I;s at 1395 population, and 1.5% growth with no governor. Can't do any building until it hits 2000. That's another 25 turns or so off. I sent a chiv governor to boost that to 3.5%, but he's 46. It MAY hit 2000 before he dies.

Everything else is castle and sort of needs to be for strategic reasons. The three easternmost regions are: Bulgar, Ryasan and Sarkel. All three of those are infertile also, though. They are running at 1%, 1% and 1.5% respectively, the last is the sea trade. Thorn is my main production center and strategic defensively. Stettin is my leading frontier and under siege as I write by Denmark.

Meanwhile I'm seeing DCK-class stuff attacking and I can build fortress-level units (and city level, for that matter) in one region (each). And I'm looking at 20+ turns to expand that. And most walls are wooden, but that's less of an issue since I've held the key defensive cities as castles (not much choice).

This would be fine if the neighbors weren't so far ahead on the curve. A backwards Russia was historical for much of the time. We could retain the backwardness, but Russia needs something to compensate. Traditionally that was bulk of cheap units they could throw away (thus kazaks everywhere). An alternative to that would be to give Russia a (cheap!) building for cities (especially) and maybe castles too that expands the free upkeep by a couple of units. That would help Russia maintain slightly larger garrisons at no cost. This will not help a lot at the frontier, but it will create more of a defense in depth as if a frontier castle falls, the cities behind won't be as vulnerable as most rear cities... in the garrison size sense. They will lack walls to compare though. I'm not sure this would make a significant difference, but it would help.

But the growth adjustments we already discussed may be what's needed.

I can see a stack with 7 DCKs just outside the border at Stettin sitting in a fort. If Denmark had sent that at Stettin, it would be lost. HRE, my ally, is pressuring them, and that's probably what's saving me there. I'm hitting Scandinavia to cut down the Danes a bit. Poland seems neutralized. HRE is doing okay this game, I suspect because my aggressiveness at NW expansion kept Poland from growing easily. Hungary is still doing okay considering I prevented NE expansion there. Interestingly, England has York and Caernavon, and Bruges. Antwerp is still rebel, it appears. Denmark got distracted. The Poles and Danes are allied. Last I heard France was fighting Portugal, probably over Bordeaux. Don't have much knowledge of anything SW of Paris. Milan is at war with Portugal, Sicily and HRE. Yeah, interesting alliance blocs formed.

And Hungary has been throwing DCKs at Iasi too.

My rep, btw, is Immaculate. My relationship with Hungary was perfect when they backstabbed my, but my rep wasn't that high then, and theirs was low. It's gonna be hard to get a solid alliance with anyone as long as their reps are so bad. Only real chance will be with landlocked, "protected" neighbors. If they have borders with other factions, or navies, they are gonna pick silly fights and ruin their reps. But the system is still a lot better than vanilla.

Carl

03-28-2007, 18:09

A lot of points.

Meanwhile I'm seeing DCK-class stuff attacking and I can build fortress-level units (and city level, for that matter) in one region (each). And I'm looking at 20+ turns to expand that. And most walls are wooden, but that's less of an issue since I've held the key defensive cities as castles (not much choice).

Bear in mind that Hungary's DCK are the eastern type and are significantly worse stat wise than the western types that France and Co get. (They are actually worse overall than DFK too). They are available at the same time as DFK, (Fortress barracks), I also think the pop is pretty high on Hungary's starting castle which helps explain why you see so many. They get to fortress VERY fast.

On the other hand, i agree that the growth rates are too low.

My rep, btw, is Immaculate. My relationship with Hungary was perfect when they back-stabbed my, but my rep wasn't that high then, and theirs was low. It's gonna be hard to get a solid alliance with anyone as long as their reps are so bad. Only real chance will be with landlocked, "protected" neighbors. If they have borders with other factions, or navies, they are gonna pick silly fights and ruin their reps. But the system is still a lot better than vanilla.

Their rep doesn't matter for trusted alliances. What they do is check if your a trusted ally of them or the target of a potential attack, and if they are they won't attack it, same when it's 2 AI factions. Does matter a bit for AI vs. AI alliances, but I can just buff the artificial Rep boost AI factions get to fix that.

I also slightly upped the requirement on rep for trusted alliances in V1.22. I'll drop it again as it's too high IMHO for V1.23 where good rep is hard to come by.

Turn 52 now as england and have taken Bern and got Stauffuan off Milan for a ceasefire. (Papal_States has Genoa and Venice was too cut off for my liking to demand that). If you want I'll send you the saved game so you can look at it?

vonsch

03-28-2007, 18:37

Sounds like you're doing pretty well with England at that stage.

I am #1 overall (despite my complaints!) but feel like its very fragile. The only thing keeping me from being swarmed is the other wars my neighbors are fighting. In that sense alliances are paying off as at least one of those was triggered when I was attacked (Hungary). And I think my relations are improving with my allies as I attack mututal enemies (is that the case?) I saw my relations with HRE increase one turn with no direct assistance via diplomat. That might have been coincidental, though, and driven by a rep-based mechanic.

Carl

03-28-2007, 19:30

If your allied with someone their is a steady increase in relation with said ally. it isn't very big, so you still need to bribe to get enough relations for a trusted alliance before turn 30 rolls round, but it is useful for keeping them up.

Sounds like you're doing pretty well with England at that stage.

So-so actually, first because the only non-isles grabs I've made have been Rennes, Dijon, stauffin, and Bern and Rennes and Dijon are in French hands now as part of treaty agreements. Also i'm nearly bankrupt as all the possible trading partners I have, (Denmark and Scotland mainly), are at war with me so my income is really low, i'm fighting for money and Milan has at least 4 full stacks of troops, many with plenty of high quality stuff in them. I only have 2 decent stacks out that way and can't afford more ATM
I've saved the game separate and started a new campaign as Scotland, so i can go back to england at will, but seeing how Scotland pressed me i was interested in seeing what i could do as them.

And I think my relations are improving with my allies as I attack mutual enemies (is that the case?)

Their are no triggers, but i think any time the enemy makes a transgression against you which hits rep you get a rep boost equivalent to their hit. Just a guess though as their no obvious triggers causing it but my rep skyrockets when i get into wars, and am attacked a lot.

Carl

03-29-2007, 01:03

Bit of good news. As Scotland i started with the proposed starting changes regards Cav. EVERYONE did MUCH better. France and HRE where still slow, but better by a long way. Hungary went utterly crazy, as did Turks, Egypt. Even Russia did better. Sicily was still passive and HRE/France need a bit more speeding up, but they made a lot more attempts and had a lot more stacks running round.

vonsch

03-29-2007, 02:52

That is indeed encouraging.

I haven't played many more turns, but saw the Mongol announcement. And I'm no where near ready to deal with THEM, of course. But no sign of them in the steppes so far. But the warning was last turn, I think.

Still chasing heretics around. I think they teleport ~;).

vonsch

03-29-2007, 03:38

Well, Hungary never sued for peace, so now Bran is mine. So I can make almost every castle-based unit there, at least. ~;) It's nicely built up. Even had the SM HQ. And Bucharest is next. Then we see if they get smart. Sophia is theirs and a fortress with a big garrison, so they aren't a pushover, but they will be hurting for money soon, I suspect. Budapest is wide open too.

Meanwhile, moving on Oslo on the other end of the world. So far the Danes are frozen in fear of twitching with HRE and me sitting on their border. But Scandinavia was undergarrisoned. Nothing else looks too skimpy though. Taking Oslo should knock them back to 2 regions, I think. Unless they've picked up Antwerp. Still looks rebel to me though (old maps). HRE may prove to be my big threat if the Mongols enter to south. Otherwise... serious problems in the east. No way I will be able to upgrade to fortress there for about 100 turns (need to double pop, and growth is 1%). And that means it's peasant archers and spear militia, with woodsmen support, in castles. Maybe some Boyar Sons if I get time and feel inclined. At least they can do some damage.

But Dismounted Dvor in the west, which would be really nice out there, but takes about 15 turns to get them out there! Spearman would be handy too. And Dismounted Boyar Sons and Druzhina for the walls, though against Mongols Dvor may be better. Anything climbing the walls isn't apt to have a lot of armor, I'd guess.

Oh well, I'm dreaming again...

Carl

03-29-2007, 16:19

Just thought I'd update you on my Scots campaign, Russia is currently beating on both Poland and Hungary whilst I try to take on Denmark and Milan who have been going after HRE like crazy.

Not having much success though, just lost one of my 3 main armies to them, took out the first army and should have Had the first reinforcement army cold but for some unfathomable reason my Highland nobles stopped charging at the last minute whilst i wasn't looking and it walked right past them, leaving them left out of the battle and dooming my main forces, losing my general to a mistake didn't help. I killed as many of them as they did of me but still lost my entire force to a chain rout. Trouble was I thought their third reinforcement army was pretty small for some reason and I didn't pay it proper attention, by the time i did half my force was out of position and the other half was mauled and scattered so they defeated me in detail. Had i been able to get my lines formed up and stop the firs reinforcement army as intended I'd have had them probably.

Fortunately the game CTD right after battle end so I'll get another shot when i go back.

Got Burgess and Antwerp, pushed england off the isles and grabbed Caen before giving to the French. Pope is so-so with me. Mongols showed up last turn too. First time I've seen them myself, (I've had the warning before but not the actual invasion). Seem to be missing a stack and both stacks seemed to be under-strength when they arrived. Good otherwise. Near Yerevan.

vonsch

03-29-2007, 17:53

Heh, for once a CTD at a convenient time!

Is this 1.23000x you're playing?

Carl

03-29-2007, 18:05

Heh, for once a CTD at a convenient time!

Sort of, except it keeps happening on the same turn, even if i go back to an earlier save. So I'd like you to play past the Mongols arriving ASAP as i'm thinking i messed something up in their script and it's that thats causing crashes.

Is this 1.23000x you're playing?

Roughly V1.235 , it's had a few modifications made compared to 1.23 but i'm not yet ready to call it 1.24 and send it out.

saurial

03-29-2007, 18:44

Hi Carl,

I've been using the PURE version of PF since I got M2TW and have been extremely pleased with it. I'm excited by the work going on with the Rebuild and I'd like to help out with Beta testing if thats possible.

Thanks,
S

Carl

03-29-2007, 19:00

OK, give me a minute and i'll PM you a link to the download.

vonsch

03-29-2007, 21:19

Sort of, except it keeps happening on the same turn, even if i go back to an earlier save. So I'd like you to play past the Mongols arriving ASAP as i'm thinking i messed something up in their script and it's that thats causing crashes.

Okay, just for you. ~;) Not really playing, but can hit turn end a few times.

There, they've arrived, shipping a spy out since I don't see them in the steppes.

Of course, when I go back to my save and really play, I'm sure they WILL arrive in the steppes.

Yep, CTD. Think it was 2nd turn after the arrival notice.

Guess that game is FUBARed. Just as well.

Carl

03-29-2007, 21:32

Thanks for that vonsch. i think i know whats wrong but i'll have to check it.

Carl

03-30-2007, 01:10

Alright, this could take a while i'm afraid, I've just finished getting to the Mongols with the changes and it's still kicking up errors, testing is slow or I'd have got this sooner. If you can, manually extract the V1.22 BETA somwhere other than the M2TW folder and grab the Campaign Script file from it (Data/World/Maps/Campaign/Imperial_Campaign), and paste it over the top of the current one. You miss out on Mongols being tougher, but it should cure the crashing issues.

I've just checked the system logs and found a clue. Unusual as CTD errors normally leave no clues in the log. theirs a misnamed unit (Mongol Dismounted Archers, when it should be Dismounted Archers). I think the Error is the Mongol AI looking for that missing stack that isn't created. Don't quote me though. Try the above temp fix and I'll get on a full fix tomorrow as it's too late for more testing now.

Carl

03-30-2007, 16:25

Right, fixed the issue with the first wave, but a missnaming has shown up in the third wave, so i'll need about an hour and a half to fix and run the tests, even with hotseat mode it takes a good hour and a half+ to test. However i'm nearly on top of it so I should have a fix inside the next few hours.

Rozanov

03-30-2007, 17:16

OK

a friend has DL'd v1.23 for me (he has broadband so it takes about 10 minutes - takes me more like 4 hours)

Is it worth trying out v1.23 if you're going to release v1.24 soon?

also are there any playable factions that people haven't tested yet you'd like me to look at?

cheers

R

vonsch

03-30-2007, 19:03

The problem with 1.23 is it CTDs shortly after the Mongols appear. But up until then it's fine (aside from already noted balance things Carl has adjusted).

Maybe Carl can get you the Mongol-crash fix as a separate download. I suspect that's a single text file.

Carl

03-30-2007, 20:24

Maybe Carl can get you the Mongol-crash fix as a separate download. I suspect that's a single text file.

Correct, it's an error in the Campaign Script file. V1.24 will be at least a couple more days as I need to do more editing and probably will be busy Sunday, and don't think I can get it all done by the end of tomorrow and checked for bugs.

EDIT:Just to clarify, i'm going to leave everyone playing the V1.23 BETA with the fix below added on over the top for now. In 3-4 days I'll release 1.24, I should have it nearly ready sometime tomorrow, so it will probably Monday I send it out.

Regarding test factions..

Could I convince you Vonsch to try out a Catholic Faction. Either HRE or France for preference, but Portugal/Spain need testing.

Rozanov, could I give you Denmark or Poland to test?

Anyway, got the file, it's self extracting, just download then double left click the RAR file and it will self extract to the default ProblemFixer Directory from the V1.23 auto-extractor/installer and will then prompt you to overwrite a file (say yes). That should sort the issue.

Link here (http://files.filefront.com//;7081513;;/).

P.s. it's not very big, so you can download it pretty quick, even with dial-up.

Carl

03-30-2007, 21:54

You got the Fix yet Vonsch?

vonsch

03-30-2007, 23:04

I got it, but haven't tried it yet.

Carl

03-30-2007, 23:36

Thats fine, just saw you online earlier and wantd to check you'd got it, (you normally say, so i wasn't sure if you'd seen it). It isn't save game compatiable though.

vonsch

04-01-2007, 05:21

Okay, I installed the fix and am trying France.

Turn 4: Excommunicated. ~;)

With no cash flow and too many units, France HAS to go to war. My problem is I chose to do it on two fronts and didn't have anything to bribe the Pope with. I booted the Limeys off the continent by taking Caen and (hopefully) crippled Milan by taking Genoa. The latter got me excommed. I wonder if I can survive that... need to see where the Pope is.

My cities and castles are completely empty. ~;) That's the problem with the existing logic of kill rebels first. The AI SHOULD be doing to me right back. Portugal and HRE have a great opportunity, but they will be beating on large rebel garrisons. If Milan dares come for Genoa, I think I can take Milan too. But will take luck there.

Turn 5 England begged a ceasefire and paid 700 for 4 turns for it. That part went well.

But don't think playing on excommed is what I want to do, though could probably manage. So I'll start again, this time with a bit more of a plan.

I think France is fine for the player though. All those starting units allow hitting reb cities one at a time easily. I just don't like letting Milan expand because I know what happens if they do.

vonsch

04-01-2007, 06:23

Ok, playing it your intended way this time, sort of. Set up trade rights and map swap with England, no more. Still need to give them the boot early. Got alliance with Portugal to keep them off my back a while. Aiming for same with Spain, that may take hooking up the prince with a dark-eyed Spanish temptest. Meanwhile, sent everything north to take some rebel cities to boost the economy while Milan and England beat themselves silly on rebel walls.

Deal with them once I have some cash flow. Pfft, Milan came begging trade rights and maps, so I weasled them into an alliance for 100 for 5 turns. They paid me, that is. I know they will break it. Or I may. But I can use that to start getting the Pope on my side.

For reference, takes 5 turns to consolidate troops in the north or south. That's for a player. The AI probably never even tries. Starting to build some militia garrisons in the north, and a bit in the south, but all allies there with rebel cities to play with. Gonna hit Rennes, then Bordeaux, if the plan works. Then head east north of the Alps to clean up those. Then turtle until Milan comes to play.

Spain agreed to an alliance without needing to marry off the prince.

Everything consolidated is over a stack and a half. Though most is militia, there are also 5 generals in there. Plenty to tackle most targets. As long as you are confident you've gotten your back covered with alliances.

Why DOES this French girl called herself "Madame?" She's single or she wouldn't be here.

England approaching Bruges with a stack of 4 whole peasants. No wonder it doesn't do well. ~;) Oh, it brought in a half stack from Caen or England by sea now too. Not enough to have a chance, but more reasonable. Should have sent that to Rennes. Might have gotten it.

Looking at units, don't see any reason to build Noble Knights. More upkeep for zero visible advantage. Unless there's a significant morale boost I can't see. Take away the impetuousness and they would be more tempting. Not really in character, but... Or give one better melee performance and the other better charge. That would be in keeping with their dismounted performance.

Ship upkeep wrong here too.

Okay, his Hatness wuvs me. For the moment. 6 alliances. Skipped England since one way or another gonna deal them off the continent. English went home. They got to Flanders and found out the locals speak French. We offered them some snails... Selling snails really helps the economy.

Turn 9: England has half stacks everywhere except in Caen. So Caen is now French and the English are on MY land. So I can attack them ~;) and they get in trouble with the Pope if they attack me! And he wuvs me best! (for the moment)

Turn 10: Top 3 overall all grouped so tight can't see who's first. One is France. 8 regions (+3). Next best is 6: HRE (flatline) and Byz (+1). Rennes will be French next turn too. Spy didn't get the gate this time. He had a hot streak of 3 for 3 going, so I'm a bit ahead of what should be normal (for a wimp siege autoresolver... though wooden walls aren't a big deal really, just lazy).

England is dead, though still "alive." Scotland has taken 3 regions because England moved everything south into my teeth. That leaves them one to fight over before they start fighting each other. Since I grabbed the lowlands, HRE, Poland and Denmark will be breathing down each others' necks too. Or mine... but two are allies and Poland isn't in reach quite yet.

Heh, I just noticed I did France by the ABC system: Antwerp, Bruges, Caen.

Oh, England did offer a ceasefire, but they wouldn't agree to my entirely reasonable terms of 500 a turn for 10 turns. I suspect that exceeded their budget. My bad. Not a peep from the Pope this time. But really only the siege of Caen itself (and the DOW) were inflammatory. After that it was all "self-defense." Killed off the two roving half-stacks in two turns. Amazing with 5 generals can do with a few militia units in support.... ~;) Especially when one is dear Loooie, the dreadful.

Hmm, I wonder if there's a nice easy crusade here somewhere. If I send Constance to the Holy Land and see if she can't seduce a Turk or Egyptian general... then hire 7 merc units there. Wait, this is your mod. No way I can take Jerusalem like that! Maybe Acre, or Antioch even. Not Jerusalem. She is up to 8 charm, so she might manage her part.

Darn, Milan beat me to Dijon. If they press on, they may get Metz too. I may have to go to war with them over this. I guess early is better. It's their first conquest, but their military is already a near match for France's. But their generals are not. Guess I'd better park one in Marseilles to start pumping it to a stone wall. Milan always comes there first.

Heh, England is "well off" now and still won't pay for a cease fire. Darn, I could use some of that gold!

Oops, HRE may get Metz. Near full militia stack almost there. Better them than Milan. Keep both in the mix and matched!

11 alliances, turn 18 and my rep is still dubious. But I have been at war, and I did start it. Better than the earlier versions.

My income at turn 20 is easily twice what Russia's was. Can manage a one-stack conquest run more easily with France too. Distances a bit shorter.

HRE has a 2/3 stack of mostly militia at Metz and it's not attacking it. Milan tried with a 1/3 stack. Odd behavior.

Give thought to making Explorers Guild castle also. Since castles get the big shipyards too, might make sense. Exploring was a military function to some degree with some of the cultures (Iberia especially). Be harder to get one in a castle though.

Pope called crusade on Jerusalem. Is that hardcoded, or modable? It's too early for the AI. Needs a 15-20 turn delay. I think I'kk see if Constance can't recruit someone. She happens to have just arrived at Gaza (and signed the last set of trade agreements... got England back at peace now too). Hmm, maybe she's not allowed to marry Muslims (she was gonna make them convert!) Forgot about that possibility.

Hmm, looks like Milan is moving on Boulogne. Full stack outside it. No siege yet. HRE is putting together more units to tackle Metz, it appears. Yep, HRE is on Metz with more than one stack. And appears that Milan may prefer Bern to Boulogne. Holding it will be a challenge. At least two stacks incoming, it appears, though they may do the shuffle a while.

Denmark went crusading, so we have first AI war: Byz-Denmark. Turn 29. Milan doing the stack shuffle. HRE got Metz. Makes them a little more viable.

Carl

04-01-2007, 20:55

Just to clear something up. You can grab Orthodox generals and get marriage alliances with them via princesses but not Muslim generals.

Regarding France. Your comments have grabbed my attention as they seem to imply a similar experience the the HRE campaign I started (cut short after I accidentally deleted the save). I found that all my starting castle where under-developed, as where many cities and as a result it was several turns before could develop my military and pull together a decent force. i managed to Get Stetinn/Hamburg/Madengurg. But only Hamburg was the right level of castle for the population, (the rest where ready for an upgrade), and it still needed the relevant military buildings to go up. Similar issues dogged the starting castles, they where both ready for upgrade and in fact needed to be upgraded before I got access to even the most basic castle military units. Goes double for archery ranges and stables where I was 2 levels off the first really decent medium Cav/Archer unit.

In effect because of my attacks northward I was forced to rely (like the AI), on locally produced units for my southern expansion. With Bologna cut off and Vienna underdeveloped, (needs a wooden wall building off the bat before I can get anywhere), and both southern castles equally underdeveloped i was left with Little production capacity for at least the first 10-15 turns and it was past turn 20 before I got a significant force together by which point only Metz was free.

For the AI this combination is disturbs as it is incapable of concentrating distant forces to take the Northern rebels on before Denmark and Poland hit them, whilst at the same time, it lacks the well developed castles and other military in the south to tackle Bern or Metz before Milan, and even if it had them, it would still only have limited expansion opportunities in that direction. In reality it needs to expand more in a northerly and easterly direction, thus helping to put pressure on Denmark and Poland who tend to explode.

In addition it lacks powerful town/city based units as other factions have and as a result suffers considerably in military terms as the AI tends to build large quantities of Spear and Town militia before it gets access to the truly powerful units that would give it true military power.

I suspect France has similar issues in that Dijon and Boruluex are normally taken by Milan/Spain/Portugal and with no northerly castles it rarely does well in the lowlands area The lack of links between it's southern areas and northern areas also fails to help matter as a chunk of it's empire is cut off and unable to supply reinforcements to the northern attacks. In effect all the forces in it's southernmost two territories end up going to waste doing nothing and tying down part of the military budget the AI assigns itself.

Your thoughts on the above?

Pope called crusade on Jerusalem. Is that hard-coded, or mod-able? It's too early for the AI.

Good idea, i think it's part of the campaign script but I'll have to check.

vonsch

04-01-2007, 21:59

Make Rheims a castle and Angers a town. That gives England a shot at Rennes still, but makes France's NE frontier a bit beefier. And give Rheims some tier 1 buildings, or pick one, stable or barracks. That will let it build units faster up near the lowlands and Metz/Dijon. HRE probably needs something similar. I don't know that well, but I see no issue with giving wooden walls to cities where appropriate. Bordeaux could be a town too, makes it a little easier for AI to take and player is probably gonna convert it anyway (so makes sense that whichever faction captures it gets an income producer).

Hmm, or alternatively Rhiems castle, leave Angers as is, make Bordeaux a town. Gives France a "central" castle in a not-great trade location, and makes Bordeaux and Rennes potential good income cities, while converting Rheims, in a bad trade location a strategic castle. But let each castle produce something useful right off. Not all three lines of units, but at least one. For France I'd do 2:1 cav:inf. Maybe Rheims infantry, the other two remain cav.

Maybe reverse that with HRE, so more inf than cav... or whatever seems right for them (as I said, haven't ever played HRE at all). But keep their castle count down to 2. Is Nuremburg a castle or town? Shoot, HRE's only decent trade city is Bologne and it's under pressure from turn 1. No wonder HRE has trouble.

France feels easy compared to Turkey/Moors/Russia. But it normally is, so that's okay.

Carl

04-01-2007, 22:56

but I see no issue with giving wooden walls to cities where appropriate.

Well apart from Vienna they have wooden walls everywhere the issue is that HRE (and a few others but HRE especially), don't have any decent city units, (i.e. something that isn't garrison fodder), until the barracks available after building Large Stone walls (12,000 population). So they are a LONG way away from an kind of major city military, they are also limited in that their best missile unit prior to Fortress level is Peasant Crossbows, (lower missile attack and significantly lower melee attack values, plus much lower overall defense, both melee and missile than any type of Longbow, Norse Archer, Highland Archer or Pavise Crossbow), which means they have terrible missile abilities, and Whilst Armored Sergent's aren't bad melee units, they also aren't anything special. That leaves only their Cav which needs the last level of stone castle stables just to get something decent, AND are heavily underestimated by both the recruitment and strength calculator AI's resulting in the AI not recruiting much and treating any armies with it present as weak.

France has similar issues here as well, they are totally reliant on Castle units, and mostly pretty poor or average units, (bar their Cav which the AI undervalues), which helps cripple them as an AI faction. In fact thinking about it, with the exception of Poland all the factions that do well ATM either are left undisturbed, (Russia for example, but also Egypt), or have a focus on something OTHER than Cav/HA.

The best thing IMHO would be to make sure all settlements, (both castles and cities/towns), have the best wall levels available, (for their starting population sizes), and take it from their. Right now the simple need to spend 10-15 turns building stuff just to get access to Armored Sargent's and peasant crossbows is hurting things badly. I also think giving HRE Madenburg and France something from somwhere would help enormously as it would give France one less rebel territory to worry about, one more production center and giving HRE Madenburg would really concentrate Poland's efforts on Stein which would slow down Denmark, and it might encourage eastern expansion by Poland, thus slowing down Russia. It would also give HRE a source of useful assault troops in the northern areas where most of the rebel territory that HRE can get to before others is situated (theirs a good few territories in that area, Antwerp, Steinn, Prague, another north of Prague, and it give access to a number of important Polish and danish territories.)

Bongaroo

04-01-2007, 23:06

Spain H/H. So far everything is very interesting and fun. I like that Spain starts with 2 princesses. One princess isn't in the tree though, odd. Got a crusade off on Cordoba and thats about all thats happened. Marriage alliance with france. Princesses used to grab 2 young generals from France.

Jinettes are fun but have they been weakened at all? I seem to remember them causing more kills before.

The moors and pontrugal just allied but portugal still hasn't done anything worse than march around my lands in the north a bit. I'm thinking of grabbing granada next to kick the Moors out and lure portugal into war with me so I can beat up on them too.

Spain is tough for me lacking in early infantry. I'm trying to get a shock stack of cavalry together and have a seige/militia stack follow. The two spainish rebel provinces are still rebel and have some full ciities, very uninviting looking.

Rozanov

04-02-2007, 14:42

OK not online at weekends so missed request to test Poles and Danes.

(on v1.23)

Played both Russia and Hungary up to the Mongol CTD.

Not keen on starting with no money but it soon built up - having just played a russian campaign (not to completion) I see Russia has Helsinki instead - which i took in the first couple of turns anyway, but not Smolensk. hmmm.

Managed to grab about the same amount as previously, so game doesn't play too dramatically differently.

Defending settlements / castles too easy - ballistas need slowing down - they fire far too quickly - can easily kill 2-300 people in the time it takes 4 units of archers to kill 60 -70.

Playing as Russia I got attacked by denmark (I had Thorn castle IIRC - very easy to defend!) they had dismounted chivalric knights - which struck me as a bit QUICK! My Russians had yet to build any foot soldiers with those new fangled things - swords. Needless to say the towers of Thorn plus 6 units of peasant archers and some militia spears did the trick and I won very easily.

Playing as Hungary - had a problem with Zagreb - never went beyond a village, even though the population kept increasing. Only when i converted to a castle did it grow - and as soon as it did the venetians bribed it - never had a settlement bribed before, and I've been playing since M2:TW came out. Got backstabbed by Venice and Byzantium, but that's to be expected I suppose.

Had a nasty surprise when I went to jerusalem with a full-stack army on crusade. - I was first there and had to deal with the 3 silver chevron defence garrison. We got destroyed.

Noticed afterwards HRE and another faction had crusading armies there - but they were just standing next to jerusalem and not siegeing it.:wall:

-----------------

will DL patch for 1.23 once I've finished DL'ing the new JRE update and have a go at Poland and Denmark (Denmark I know (in game) quite well so should be able to spot any serious issues.)

Carl

04-02-2007, 15:18

Jinettes are fun but have they been weakened at all? I seem to remember them causing more kills before.

Nothing Directly that I know of, but the Shield fix has an indirect effect as it increases the units missile defense to the right and rear whilst reducing it to the front and left, so that could heavily throw things out of whack. The AI also tends to get Blacksmiths and the like up faster.

Not keen on starting with no money but it soon built up - having just played a Russian campaign (not to completion) I see Russia has Helsinki instead - which i took in the first couple of turns anyway, but not Smolensk. hmmm.

Thats mainly for the Russians as an AI faction as when used by the AI their survival tends to be totally dependent on weather they take Helenski before turn 10 or not. If they do they do fine, otherwise they stall and never get anywhere. The general idea though is to try to slow the player down overall, (hence low starting money), early on whilst speeding the AI up early on. In effect ensuring that the AI factions have time to expand outwards and become major headaches for the player to deal with. Rather than the wet paper towel pushovers they mostly resemble in vanilla.

Defending settlements / castles too easy - ballistas need slowing down - they fire far too quickly - can easily kill 2-300 people in the time it takes 4 units of archers to kill 60 -70.

Thats deliberate as they need to be better than the arrow towers that come before them. Arrow towers are about the same overall as a good unit of AP Archers, (like Longbows, but their are also a few others around too), Ballista Towers are the same plus some extra range and a bit more overall power. Peasant Archers/Archer militia are very weak level archers and shouldn't really be compared to the towers in terms of killing power. A good AP archer unit can outperform them by significant margins, since said units have half again the attack the target has half the defense value it does against Peasant Archers.

For reference the wall arrow towers have 12 attack, AP, approximately 4 times the accuracy of a longbow, and fire an average of exactly 400 shots per minute. Your average Longbow has 8 attack, AP, a quarter the accuracy, but has a fire rate of over 600 shots per minute, (not 100% on exact fire rate for archers as reload times are not as exactly known as for arrow towers). This is on small unit sizes with the arrow towers from a stone Castle, they get slightly faster firing as you go up the levels. The attack value is also somewhat spurious as values over 10 produce no kill rate increases for Longbows, Longbows also get more accurate the closer the target is. Overall I'd give the Longbows a slight advantage, but only a slight one, and mostly down to the fact that at shorter ranges the fire rate and accuracy is high enough to make the better attack and slightly higher accuracy of the towers less of an issue.

Playing as Russia I got attacked by Denmark (I had Thorn castle IIRC - very easy to defend!) they had dismounted chivalric knights - which struck me as a bit QUICK! My Russians had yet to build any foot soldiers with those new fangled things - swords. Needless to say the towers of Thorn plus 6 units of peasant archers and some militia spears did the trick and I won very easily.

The easy siege defenses are a known problem that i'm working on. Part of the issue is the fact that the AI STILL isn't building enough catapults/trebuchates which are almost mandatory for attacks on the higher levels of walls. This is also a deliberate choice so as to make blitzing harder, (you need siege gear which slows your army down, and even then the losses you will suffer will force you to spend time retraining and replacing which will slow you even more).

It's just that right now the AI isn't using enough siege gear and a s a result it's attacks are somewhat half hearted considering the new defenses, the AI simply fails to take them into account in the strength calculator.

Playing as Hungary - had a problem with Zagreb - never went beyond a village, even though the population kept increasing. Only when i converted to a castle did it grow - and as soon as it did the Venetians bribed it - never had a settlement bribed before, and I've been playing since M2:TW came out. Got backstabbed by Venice and Byzantium, but that's to be expected I suppose.

The Growth situation is a know issue and will be corrected come V1.24.

Had a nasty surprise when I went to jerusalem with a full-stack army on crusade. - I was first there and had to deal with the 3 silver chevron defence garrison. We got destroyed.

:laugh4:, yes it is rather a shocking surprise isn't it~;p.

Noticed afterwords HRE and another faction had crusading armies there - but they were just standing next to Jerusalem and not sieging it.

It's VERY annoying, I wish I knew why they did that.

will DL patch for 1.23 once I've finished DL'ing the new JRE update and have a go at Poland and Denmark (Denmark I know (in game) quite well so should be able to spot any serious issues.)

Ok, and thanks for the data, don't worry about not seeing what I wanted testing as you've still given me a lot of data to work with thats useful to me.

Bob the Insane

04-02-2007, 18:11

Finally got bored of Stalker and after watchng Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut (which I can really, really recomend if you like the film) i got the old MTW2 bug...

So updated to 1.23 and put the 1.23 fix on and started a Polish Campaign...

Despite having 0 money to start you have so few troops that setting Krakow to Very High Taxes gives you 500-ish a turn before you build any impovements so you can start, slowly as long as you are not foolish with your starting troops. You can abuse the AI a little by putting a stack near the rebel settlement you want to take and the Noble Council should promptly give you a mission to take it will a nice payout. I took by means of a long siege Berslow (spelling?), Thorn and Prague...

For both Thorn and Prague the garrsion sallied out. In Thorn it was primarily my Polish Nobles the insigated a large rout by use of missiles and then charges to the flanks. The battle for Prague was on a larger scale with a lot more spear militia on my side to hold the line, but basically the same tactics overall of flanking with the generals and Polish Nobles and routing the defending force... The Spear militia performed well.

A Crusade has been called and a large Danish Crusade army just passed through my lands so after taking Prague I have joined the call and sent my own including two generals (one is the heir).

With three castles and two cities finances are going well, I am allied to most of my neighbours (HRE, Hungary, Denmark, Sicily and the Pope) including by marrage to Russia. I have trade agreements with Venice, Milan and France.

I have not yet reached the magic 30 turns yet so things are pretty peiceful so far..

Additionally, I might have missed it, but castles no longer seem to be able to build farms??

vonsch

04-02-2007, 19:13

Yep, no farms for castles. And they also had their trade profits dropped. Carl is trying to differentiate between castles as productions centers and cities as economic centers more.

My only issue with it is the AI is too dumb to switch castles to cities. ~;)

My castles tend to develop faster (once I have cash flow) because there isn't much choice but to build unit production stuff in them. But I have even fewer than I tend to in vanilla too. I mostly use one main production castle, and captured ones for replacements until they are no longer forward.

Bob the Insane

04-02-2007, 19:47

I guess the only issue is that castle growth can be frightening slow without some farms... To be honest that is the reason I build farms in castles, not for income, but population growth...

Having said that though, in the Feudal world was that not the whole point of castles and knights but to secure all the farmland to feed the population and economy of the kingdom (and provide relatively easy access to self sufficient military forces)?

I would argue that farming should be available to either castles or cities but trade upgrades be limited strictly to cities (I guess that is the way it is aready however). But then again the whole point of this is to prompt the AI into intelligent decsions so I suppose anything goes...

vonsch

04-02-2007, 20:01

As things stand you have two alternate methods of growing castles (fairly) fast.

(1) Post a high chivalry governor there a while. They can really rachet up growth.

(2) Convert it to a city, grow it but don't build stone walls. Convert it back to a castle.

Carl doesn't like the second because the AI is too dumb to do it though. ~;)

I find myself mainly doing (1) these days, and using captured castles (which are often nicely built up for me). It's pretty easy to get a 5+ chivalry general and they improve if you put them to work as governor.

But I use big governors to pump cities fast too. Along with farms and trade and normal taxes. Once I get them grown to huge, I stall out growth as much as I can and move the governor away.

The nice thing about governors is they can be turned on or off, unlike farms.

Carl

04-02-2007, 20:42

I guess the only issue is that castle growth can be frightening slow without some farms...

Don't worry, basic castle growth rate will be upped for 1.24, as I agree in the case of some castles, even with trade the growth can be static without a good Governor, which the AI isn't quite up to using.

My only issue with it is the AI is too dumb to switch castles to cities.

I'm trying to make as many of the best trade spots cities whilst keeping a good selection of castle around so the AI has a castle nearby often whilst still having lots of high trade areas. I'm also planning on including a number of trade bonuses for castle linked directly to Gunpowder and "the World is Round" events so that as the game progresses and the best levels of city units become available, (reducing but not eliminating castles as the main production centerers), the castles start to take more of the economic strain.

I have not yet reached the magic 30 turns yet so things are pretty peaceful so far..

Only so far~;p. What are the other local factions doing like then, any good or are they slow for you?

Carl

04-03-2007, 00:10

A quick update on V1.24. It's nearly their ATM, I've just got a few more tweaks to make. The Descr_Strat file changes took a while as it's VERY easy to make an error in their so it's taken forever to dig them all out. i've just got a couple of new traits to add and some last tweaks to reputation and I'll be ready to release it so it's going to get delayed 24 hours till tomorrow, sorry about this guys, just took a LOT longer to do some changes than I thought it would.

Bob the Insane

04-03-2007, 01:16

Only so far~;p. What are the other local factions doing like then, any good or are they slow for you?

Well Hungary beat me to Iasi, and the HRE got to Prague first but could not deal with the garrison. The HRE have taken Magdeburg. Hungray have taken Zagreb, Sofia and Isai...

The Russians have taken Helsinki and Denmark have Hamburg and a large stack heading to Stettin (they start with Stockholm and Oslo now right?)...

It is 1111 and no-one is at war yet or allied to anyone but me... In addition to myself (the Polish) Denmark and Venice have crusade armies on the way to the holy land...

Carl

04-03-2007, 12:58

It is 1111 and no-one is at war yet or allied to anyone but me...

It usually takes about 5 turns after turn 30 before everyone starts waring in earnest. You should see the odd one before that, but nothing major until about 5 turns as those initial wars cause initial alliances which cause more initial wars which cause more alliances and thus more wars, and so on and so on.

Since the patch is now confirmed for this Thursday i'm going to put V1.24 on hold until that comes out as it would be pointless to release v.124 tonight and then have to release v1.25 a few days later. Exact release date of V1.24 will depend on what time the actual patch is released. if it's 1:00 AM on Thursday morning then I could have it by Friday night. If it's midnight Thursday Night then it's more likely to be Saturday night as i'm going to need at least 24 hours to check out all their changes and work from their.

Bob the Insane

04-03-2007, 15:16

Well, it is now in the late 1120's and the world has certainly gotten a lot more interesting for the Polish.

The HRE appears to have been quite upset over my annexing of Prague and after many terratorial violations and the assassination of one of our Cardinals they finally besieged Prague. On doing so the Hungarians canceled their alliance with us and the Pope (with whom I have Perfect relations) has done nothing. Fortunately we had been looking to the future and possible conquests to the east and with the bulk of our forces and royal family away on crusade we have been building a new and better army. Spearmen, Lithuanian Archers, Polish Nobles and those unpronoucable mounted crossbowmen (plus some catapults, but we soon left those behind). This army was almost finished and had been collecting in a fort outside Krakow.

With the King trapped but the siege of Prague (with 4 units of Spear Militia) and his two sons in the Holyland on Crusade, it is up to his son in-law who had been charged with the care of Krakow to take command of the army and move to relieve Krakow. On reviewing the strategic situation and noting further HRE stacks moving towards other settlements and to reinforce the siege of Prague our new general decided speed was of essence and leaving the bulk of the army to complete the build up, he took 2 units of Polish knights and 4 units of the Crossbow cavalry and rode hard to the rescue of his father-in-law and lord, the King... Long story to short, the relief when well with the besieging for attacked simultaniously by missile cavalry to the rear and Spear Miltia the the King to the front. The HRE force was cut down to a man and survivors out to the sword when their Emperor refused to pay ransom. Relief was short lived though as this was just the start of things, not the end. Soon Krakow itself plus some other settlements had small stacks besieging them. Small, but still too strong for the local garrisons.

Our general above has remained in command of the cavalry force tasked with relieving sieges and driving off the HRE stacks. The noble council has revealed that in it's highly aggresive strategy the HRE has left Vienna critically under-defended and has offered a reward for taking this city. The money is greatly needed, as is a new source of income, plus cutting that income off from the HRE. So the King himself has taken the bulk of our infantry and catapults and has started moving south.

The loss of income from Krakow is very bad news as it puts our finances in the red and stops the rebuilding of our forces until Krakow is relieved. To make matters worse the Hungarians, allied to the HRE, have taken advantage of the situation and have attacked a border fort guarding the main bridge north of Iasi. Finally the HRE have allied themselves with the Milan.

I do not seem to have gained any advantage so far from my alliances with Denmark, Sicily or the Pope. I allied with Venice in order to deny this to the HRE and balance their alliance with Milan, but this may prove a problem later as Venice are presently at war with my other allies the Byzantians. The war ceased for just one year after my new alliance with Venice before the fighting started again. Finally in response to the lack of action from Rome and to support my crusaders' efforts I have entered into alliances with both the Turks (ending their war with Byzantian) and with the Egyptians. Our crusaders have done well and have taken Acre and are now besieging Jerusalim with a danish crusading army stood by close enough to assist.

So overall, our missile cavalry has given us an open field advantage over the HRE's spearman, but finding the money to develop the infrastructure for them and to hire them has slowed me down. Note sure why the HRE and Hungarians are so openely aggressive to us..

Carl

04-03-2007, 15:28

Just a quick note for you regarding alliances.

You need relations with the other faction to be Very Good or above, and you need just slightly better than Reliable Reputation, (Very Reliable is certain to be enough), for it to be a trusted alliance. If it's not trusted it won't help you any more than in vanilla. If it is trusted then they ill declare war on anyone who declares war on you, but be aware that this doesn't work if you are already at war with the target when the alliance becomes trusted.

To get your rep up release prisoners and occupy settlements plus by back your own prisoners. Never ransom or especially execute prisoners and don't exterminate/sack.

Top get relations up constantly gift them map info and military access onto your lands. Even if they refuse it pushes relations up. Based on the pope thing I'd say your reputation isn't high enough.

Otherwise, thanks for the info. Would you say money has been a major issue for you then, or is it simply a little difficult but not nasty money wise? Not sure why all the small stacks though...

Bob the Insane

04-03-2007, 15:52

Top get relations up constantly gift them map info and military access onto your lands. Even if they refuse it pushes relations up. Based on the pope thing I'd say your reputation isn't high enough.

Just just can't seem to get passed Mixed with the Poles... Need that cash too much...

Otherwise, thanks for the info. Would you say money has been a major issue for you then, or is it simply a little difficult but not nasty money wise? Not sure why all the small stacks though...

I am definately hobbled by my cash flow, it was fine at first, but even with one army on crusade once I started building up the second army and I got past my second level structures, and the buildings start to get expensive, my cash flow started to dwindle. The war with the HRE, my major trading partner is another problem. However the situation is far from lost, even if I continue into negative figures, I have forces in the field, I am besieging one city and shortly about to attack another. I think I am going to have to stop pussyfooting around with the chivalrous path thing and go all Dread and lay a big can of whoop-ass down on the HRE and show these Western Europeans that then aren't so very Holy... If they are willing to betray me they deserve it...

So overall I think cash is just right, to much more and my early missile cavalry could have been causing havock all over the place.

However I am having problems growing my cities, even with a decent governor and all the buildings constructed, Krakow has not yet grown to the next level.

From a deplomacy perspective, the HRE were deceitful and had a priority of "war" before they betrayed us. So even if our relationship hand been Very Good and we had been Trustworthy would they have honoured the alliance?

The HRE stacks are like 6 units, mostly Spears with a archer unit. Some of the newer ones have mounted sergeants to. They are easily more powerful than my garrisons...

vonsch

04-03-2007, 16:17

With the walls the way they are, the small stacks are only a problem if they don't assault. They can starve you out if they keep besieging (which is cool). That and they cause income loss, which can hurt.

Taking the war to the enemy is definitely the way to go if your economy is dicey. Hit deep. If you can't afford to garrison the conquest, just sacrifice rep and exterminate and destroy all the buildings, then abandon it. ~;) But be prepared to make more enemies that way! Selling off the buildings after occupying should also work, and may leave a really ungovernable city behind too. Just don't destroy churches! If you have LOTS of alliances and few wars, you can earn back the rep loss pretty fast anyway. Mine is running at Immaculate in my last France test at about turn 45. Minor stuff like a little spying doesn't hurt it with 10 allies. The Ai factions are fighting, but I'm keeping my act very chivalrous and am only at war with the Moors, thanks to Spain. A little incident with a ship in a Moorish zoc. As soon as Spain pulled me into war with the Moors, they signed a ceasefire too! But no problem, I'll just take Tunis. The Moors are jihading on Bagdad so they have distractions.

With Carl's mod you pretty much have to use merchants for the income boost (which is not small). I get as many as I can to a good area. The problem with them being taken over is less as the odds of success are a bit lower. But getting them some early experience doesn't hurt. I do that by hitting lots of less good trade spots on the way to my actual target. Not even using the fort thing these days. I still lose one occasionally, but the payback on them is much faster. It's pretty easy to earn back the 550 in less than 10 turns with some knowledge of what's good for the faction you're playing. For Russia I head for slaves. That's a good compromise of quick payback and reachability. The slave trader ancilliary is nice if you can get it too. Don't know what's good trade goods for Poland though. Constantinople and N. Italy are pretty vicious for merchants still, so I'd only send experienced merchants there (and check out the locals first). If you can nab some low skill merchants enroute, you can boost skills even more/faster.

In my game I hold Bern and Milan Dijon. HRE holds Metz. So Bern is cut off. I can't move in or out without committing a transgression against one or the other. For about 5 turns HRE had a part stack parked next to Bern. I kept building junk units to fill up the castle as I was working on buildings. They finally pulled their units out. But both their rep and Milan's are trashed from transgressing in that region ~;). I am just waiting for Milan to get pushy. Genoa is wide open and I have a ballista with its name incribed. I will soon do the same for Milan itself, since Bern makes a lovely perch to swoop down on Milan from! As soon as Tunis falls, I'll move the ballista and a short assault stack to Corsica where it's a quick hop over to Genoa. That way I can land and assault in one turn. But Milan has stopped poking around (for now.) France's military is rated #1. And Milan is besieging Venice. Don't think they can take it, so I'll let them batter themselves against the canal. If they do, Genoa must fall. Can't let them build momentum.

But don't know how much more I'll play this version with 1.2 close. Be nice to lose SOME bugs.

Oh, don't ally with Islamic factions, btw. Bad juju for rep. They are evil! Makes all good Christian factions suspicious. With Othodox isn't so bad. That might be hurting you. Having a lot of alliances really helps too, but after turn 30 they are harder to get, especially once you are at war.

Rozanov

04-03-2007, 16:37

OK.

downloaded the fix for the patch and installed - no probs.

It doesn't work on saved games - I presume loading the saved game overwrites what the patch does? (or in other words I loaded an autosave of the game just prior to the Mongol CTD and the game still crashed at the end of the turn.)

SO I started a Danish campaign from scratch.

Oh we get Oslo and Stockholm - not sure if the human needs them (but maybe that's to force the AI to take Hamburg?)

Jack up the taxes, clump forces together and its off to Hamburg, which we besiege and wait until the AI sallies out at half strength where we defeat it.

Rinse and repeat for Stettin, Thorn, Antwerp, Bruges and Riga in that order. Preferably waiting a wee while to see if the nobles will give us some dosh for doing so. A couple of merchants north of Arhus, a couple of priests to convert the heathen. Princess goes on long trip westward to get trade, map and alliances with England, Scotland, France, Spain, Portugal, Moors, Sicily, Pope (oh yes an alliance with the Pope!), Venice. (Milan gets to me first!) Diplomat heads east to does necessary deals with Poles, Russians, Hungarians etc etc. (ends up outside jerusalem.) neat everyone onside.

Crusades. Aha the fun begins. First Crusade - build army - mix of spears, archers and mercs, head off to the balkans, get ship, board ship, sail ship to coast of Holy land, disembark. march army to Jerusalem. Damn- we're first (again!) so have to face the mighty 3 gold chevron army. Quivering in my boots I am approached by human being (3rd class) Baldrick who tells me of his CUNNING PLAN.

Next turn the AI garrison sallies forth (as expected) (pre-battle screen suggests it's 2:1 on winning). I deliberately don't build siege equipment so re-ordering the line-up is a bit easier. Infantry to front, archers to rear, cavalry to flanks, his nibs hiding behind everyone else.

The AI attacks, my infantry slug it out, the archers fire at the AI archers, my cavalry destroy the AI cavalry (crusader knights - very handy), then they take out the AI archers, apart from "Baldrick's surprise" - a complete unit of cavalry charges round the flanks of the AI army and into the undefended gateway of jerusalem and captures the central plaza unopposed. The remaining bits of cavalry run down any routing AI infantry,the Danish infantry hold firm long enough for the 3 minutes to come up.

Victory - giving the Jerusalem garrison such overpowered units has failed to stop me.

Sadly I lost Jerusalem a couple of turns later - no priests, no time to build a chapel, and the army is given The Order of the Boot. So I disband some merc units, sail back to Rhodes and capture that.

Second Crusade I use a fresh army from Denmark, recruit a priest or two on Rhodes and sail them over beforehand, and recruit another army using one of my generals on Rhodes so I end at Jerusalem with 2 full-stack crusader armies AND a full-stack Hungarian army (allies!!) Three powerful armies surround Jerusalem. The garrison is a hodge podge of mediocre units. "Nothing can stop us now!" The AI doesn't sally forth so I go on the attack. Surely three full-stack armies can take Jerusalem by assault.

Er, no. I had forgotten about the uber archer towers, manned by anachronistic machine gunners. Not to mention the daft rule whereby towers can continue firing even after you've captured the wall, if there's a defending unit somewhere in the vicinity. Net result all my infantry got mown down on the walls before causing hardly any casualties. The cavalry stood around outside waiting in vain for a gate to be opened and the Hungarians, wisely stood their ground.

So I loaded the autosave and then continued by playing the waiting game. Which netted me the city in due course. And which I duly got ejected from soon after.

I then took Acre, easily, from the rebels, and sent the remnants of the two armies to take Antioch, which fell and promptly got up again. At which point I cut my losses (the treaury was 15,000 in the red - no money made from sacking doesn't help (:furious3:)) sacked all my mercs and built up Acre.

Round about 1150 I got a message saying there was trouble brewing in the east (Mongols) but even by 1170 they had yet to put in an appearance.

Game came to an unexpected halt when I was defending Thorn - pretty much untakeable by assault now, due to the overpowerful archer towers - who needs to upgrade to ballistas!!). The Russian infantry having been destroyed by the tower archers and the cavalry having turned and fled, my general saddled up and set off to run down some routers. At which point the game crashed - and it being half five in the morning I decided to call it a night.

So - archers towers need toning right down, we need more money from sacking. Alliances seem to work OK - Russians have no penalty from attacking Catholics after all (and vice versa.). Extended movement for agents is good (and ships)

I'd probably have done a lot better, not to have relied on mercs for crusading - but my castles and settlements were so slow to build decent units I had no option.

Oh and Stockholm suffered from Zagreb Syndrome. The village grew but I never had the choice of putting a pallisade round it - but it was happy if I converted it to a castle, and then it grew properly. (You can then convert it back to a town.)

Carl

04-03-2007, 17:43

Game came to an unexpected halt when I was defending Thorn - pretty much untakeable by assault now, due to the overpowerful archer towers - who needs to upgrade to ballistas!!). The Russian infantry having been destroyed by the tower archers and the cavalry having turned and fled, my general saddled up and set off to run down some routers. At which point the game crashed - and it being half five in the morning I decided to call it a night.

I've seen this myself, i'm not sure whats causing it, it's rare but seems to specifically effect castles of various kinds. I'm not sure why though, it always seems to happen when the enemy turns to flee and you click continue the battle.

Er, no. I had forgotten about the uber archer towers, manned by anachronistic machine gunners. Not to mention the daft rule whereby towers can continue firing even after you've captured the wall, if there's a defending unit somewhere in the vicinity. Net result all my infantry got mown down on the walls before causing hardly any casualties. The cavalry stood around outside waiting in vain for a gate to be opened and the Hungarians, wisely stood their ground.

EDIT: See Bob the Insanes post directly below this one, It gives a MUCH better anwser than the one I had in here beforhand.

...we need more money from sacking.

I'm going to add a hidden trait so the more sacking and exterminating you do the more money you get in future with that particular general. That DOES mean you'll need t do some sacking and exterminating at the really low level to begin with, but over time you'll build him up and start getting major income again. On the flip side it kills your rep which is going to really hurt alliances.

In effect you'll either have to chose a chivalrous strategy in which you get Little money from sacking, but good economic growth and strong alliances, or a dreadful one in which you get lots of money from sacking but poor economic growth and poor alliances.

Oh we get Oslo and Stockholm - not sure if the human needs them (but maybe that's to force the AI to take Hamburg?)

Nobody but the Danes ever grabs them and if they don't start with them they spend 30+ turns grabbing them after getting hamburg, rather than expanding onto the mainland.

Round about 1150 I got a message saying there was trouble brewing in the east (Mongols) but even by 1170 they had yet to put in an appearance.

Thats weird, has anyone else playing with the fix got to the Mongols to show up yet?

It doesn't work on saved games - I presume loading the saved game overwrites what the patch does? (or in other words I loaded an autosave of the game just prior to the Mongol CTD and the game still crashed at the end of the turn.)

The game only loads the fixed file when it starts the campaign, their no way to make it save game compatible.

But don't know how much more I'll play this version with 1.2 close. Be nice to lose SOME bugs.

Could you at least get the Mongols to show up for you please. They do for me but I want to check with Rozanov's experience.

Just just can't seem to get passed Mixed with the Poles... Need that cash too much...

Reputation isn't' effected by cash or bribes. All you can do is occupy a lot, sign lots of trade agreements and alliances and try not to step onto neutral territory too much as that hits rep hard.

I am definitely hobbled by my cash flow, it was fine at first, but even with one army on crusade once I started building up the second army and I got past my second level structures, and the buildings start to get expensive, my cash flow started to dwindle. The war with the HRE, my major trading partner is another problem. However the situation is far from lost, even if I continue into negative figures, I have forces in the field, I am besieging one city and shortly about to attack another. I think I am going to have to stop pussyfooting around with the chivalrous path thing and go all Dread and lay a big can of whoop-ass down on the HRE and show these Western Europeans that then aren't so very Holy... If they are willing to betray me they deserve it...

That probably explains why the poles do so well as an AI faction. The money script cuts their money issues down a fair bit.

However I am having problems growing my cities, even with a decent governor and all the buildings constructed, Krakow has not yet grown to the next level.

Growth is getting changed don't worry.

Oh and Stockholm suffered from Zagreb Syndrome. The village grew but I never had the choice of putting a palisade round it - but it was happy if I converted it to a castle, and then it grew properly. (You can then convert it back to a town.)

My fault, the settlement level is lower than the level of walls in the Descr_Strat file. I've already fixed it. Hope they hurry up with the patch and release it Thursday morning, as a few changes I've got ready for V1.24 will really help the AI I think and fix a number of minor bugs that crept into V1.23

Bob the Insane

04-03-2007, 17:50

That sounds pretty cool...

I am not sure about toning the towers down, but I agree about them stopping firing when you capture them, that would be nice...

However I quite like the volumn of fire from them. The point is that:

A. to assault a settlement without some form of catapult(s) to take out the towers is going to by massively expensive in man power.

B. defended your settlements against the AI when it is not got catapults is possible even for small garrisons.

However when the AI does have catapult is very predicatable what it will do, namely destroy the gate towers and then the towers either side of that and if there is ammo left start knocking holes in the walls.

Carl's challenge is ensuring the AI builds and brings an appropriate amount of catapults to a siege.

Carl

04-03-2007, 17:56

I am not sure about toning the towers down, but I agree about them stopping firing when you capture them, that would be nice...

I've tried re-implementing the RTW method but it won't have it i'm afraid. Believe me I preferred that way myself.

Carl's challenge is ensuring the AI builds and brings an appropriate amount of catapults to a siege.

:yes: a very major problem thats driving me slightly mad LOL:laugh4:.

Thanks for a MUCH clearer explanation than the one I gave in my last post.

vonsch

04-03-2007, 20:33

Hmm, vanilla bug? Suddenly my merchants trained in Antwerp (with merchant guild) aren't getting the boost I'd been seeing. Or is that just a random thing and my luck was bad this turn? Had one born at 1 skill, the other at 2. Turn before they were 3 and 4 respectively. I was thinking there would be a guild-trained trait, but maybe that's not a merchant thing. One just has "Good with Money" and the other has that and "Legal Nouse" (Town Hall in place too.)

Still 22 turns from 1150 and Mongol notice. Aside from taking Tunis from the Moors and beating up on their fleets, just keeping my head pulled in. Milan decided it wants to fight Venice and HRE (and the Moors!) at the same time. It has a crusade stack parked at Venice. I guess it's hoping Venice will get excommed, but more likely that Milan will at this rate. HRE is in the Pope's good graces too, for once. I'm a bit surprised that Milan hasn't dropped more in the Pope's estimation. Heh, maybe I should dump that alliance so they don't get the boost from being friends with me.

Did it, dropped me from Immaculate to Very Trustworthy. But I was allied with HRE and Venice too, can't have that! Now I can be a good ally to the others. That still leaves me with 12 alliances. Heh, here comes Milan, stacks inbound to Rheim and Bern it appears. Ouch, someone just assassinated Henry, who was being groomed to be the next great population boom-maker. Philippe finally died, so no more 10 chivalry governor. Louis just isn't cut out for that role. ~;) He is at 1 chivalry now, but not gonna hit 10 this century, if ever. Bloody past.

Heh, I think Milan overreached. They failed at Venice and Bologne, and while they were doing that, Venice grabbed Milan. The Milanese stacks are shrinking. They shuffled back away from me. Spain in grinding down the Moors in Iberia. Only Granada to go. Portugal is stuck with their starting two regions still. That division kills them.

May be wrong about Louis. As King he's picking up chivalry fast. Probably too fast. I think that can use some toning down. Not sure how you're triggering it, but he went from 1 to 5 chivalry in about 3 turns. Meanwhile HRE, has decided to start a war over Antwerp. At least they picked a good target. Not that they have the chance of a snowflake in hell. The standing garrison is double what they are using, and it has stone walls. The garrison is joking about how they'll taste with butter since they look like snails in their funny helmets from above, and they move like snails, and they are dumber than snails. Escargot home! Silly Huns. Ooo, Portugal wants to play too. Silly boys. And to think I was gonna take Granada and give it to them. They, um, blockaded a port (what else?) Heh, PS declared on both. I predict the PS will own Bologne inside 10 turns. Oh! That was fast, HRE and Portugal both Excommed too. I think I'll start with... Pamplona! Nice developed Fortress. (Toulouse just started building citadel this turn too, had FH there boosting growth.)

Heh, just saw the Danes try Jerusalem and get bounced. Oops, Spain talked Portugal out of their folly, for now (enforced truce with me, darn.) But HRE is still begging to lose a city. Stauffen has one whole unit in residence and it's close to Bern ~;). Well, okay, it's a fortress. Bah, the Germans sicced a heretic on Bern! Lutheran scum! Since Portugal went to ceasefire, I guess this stack aboard ship will have to take Algiers from the Moors. They must have Tripoli too. I see a half stack moving up to Tunis from there. Too late.

HRE besieging Rheims now too. While fighting with the Danes. They are frisky. Must be stored up resentment at the greatness of Fwance! Heh, Milan wants 24k a turn for two turns or they attack. Bring it on! They can join the crew of infidels! With Portugal! Back blockading Bordeaux again. Darn, spies (two of them!) missed the gates at Stauffen. Next turn unless HRE finds some reinforcements fast. Darn, Moors have a stack just outside Algiers. No cheap steal there ~;). Let's see if it moves... hmm, baiting might work. Let's see: Antwerp and Rheims besieged, and I'm besieging Stauffen and trying to block potential reinforcements with a sacrifice spear militia. Meanwhile, stack moving north to Rheims to lift that siege if they don't assault. And the same for Antwerp. Scouting Pamplona and building a stack at Toulouse. Looks like general and two small units in Pamplona. But it's several moves for siege gear. Be hard to pull off without it being reinforced. Can't get to it by sea yet. Need to deal with Portuguese navy first and it's large. The stack of HRE at Rheims is actually fairly tough. But no siege gear and too much horse. Be a tough field battle, but it's only got one zwaeihander for tackling walls and it's a stone wall. 4 militia xbows and 2 peasant archers too. Nothing really good to deal with the DIK and ZH though. If they get on top of the wall. But crossbows can deal with them from other walls, I hope. Oh, cat coming up in one more turn too. Hmm. And my relief force is two turns out. Interesting.

Staufen is mine. HRE still besieging Antwerp and Rheims. No assaults. Milan down to Dijon and Genoa and Genoa has a 1 general garrison again, despite about 3 Milanese stacks around. Silly bug. Hope that one is fixed. Makes this a little TOO easy. Very tempting. Fleet closing on it ~;). It would effectively kill Milan, even if I just take it and destroy all the buildings and let it revolt. Suspect I can hold it though. Nice walls.

HRE has not brought reinforcements to Rheims siege, so think it will hold fine. I distracted them with my move on Staufen. Heh. They should have been there and assaulted last turn. One stack may be in the trees somewhere though. Aha, here we go, assault on Antwerp, 1:1 odds. No chance. Thought they would try to starve me out. Took them 3 turns to assault. Maybe they were gonna reinforce, but plans changed. No sweat. Heroic victory. Yeah. Sure. ~;) Lots of archers and crossbows, and nice little arrow towers. Tower burned, ram burned, ladders repulsed by one town militia unit. But only a merc xbow came up them.

Okay, now they want to die at Rheims too. This time at least a couple decent units, if they use them right. 8:7 odds my favor though. Too much cav in there for them. They needed those reinforcements and that cat to have a chance. 2 towers, 2 ladders and ram. Mx handled the ladders with no problem. Armored sergeants on those. One town has DIKs. Other is AS again. Towers dealt with. Big gate brawl, but not a problem. Lost some spears from the gate fighting, but not a whole unit's worth. They just didn't achieve critical mass.

Another stack forming to come to Antwerp already. They are slow learners. Oh, and here comes Milan to Marseille. Goodie. Portugal moving on Bordeaux with a shortish stack too. PS at war with Milan now too. And Milan is, of course, excommed.

My only complaint with the silly Fwench is no decent melee unit yet. But the plain crossbows aren't bad in a wallholding role. Now that I can make them. Aha, voulges on the way in the large cities (like Antwerp). But a ways off still, especially if I'm fending off sieges. Both of those cities are great because the ones right behind them can swap garrisons and repair them while the frontline city is under attack again too. Marseille, in contrast, is hung out there. Bern and Staufen are well placed to support each other too. Keeping both castles until things calm down though. Nice forward build centers.

Well, that was very nice. My first real set piece battle with Fwance. 6 Armored Spears line, 4 xbows tucked just in front, off skirmish. 3 peasant archers behind shooting fire. 2 mailed knights and 1 mounted sergeant on each wing, general behind the line. Milan got rolled. The cav did most of the killing, but the line accepted the charge and did a perfect anvil. I could get used to this. Let this be known as the Battle of Dijon! Milanese made mustard! Nice to eliminate that salient into my nice neat front. Besieging the remnants now. That leaves Genoa. Two turns if no one beats me there. Fleet still more than one move out. Darned ballista!

Heh, Milan backed off Marseille and Portugal backed off Bordeaux. My move on Pamplona got spotted. That Portuguese force moved back into Plamplona. And the Milanese headed to Dijon. Too late. And Genoa now has a large garrison for some reason. ~;) Last stand for Milan. They still have two full stacks over near Florence though. Heh, now they want a ceasefire. I guess I can do that. ~;) Since Milan is garrisoned now. Oh, well, they aren't willing to pay indemnity, so I guess no peace. So they came back to Marseille! Silly dogs.

With Master Merchant Guild I get "Financial Training" on merchant. Maybe I was just confused on what level that appeared.

More seige defenses, more battles... nothing exciting. Trying to get to the Mongol warning. Heh, Portugal has a half stack afleet. Not sure where they were planning on invading, but I'm hounding them now. They are making Portuguese knights and pavise crossbow, so time to get rid of Pamplona. Wow, took four fleet actions to sink that fleet (and army!)

Moors assaulting Tunis. Oops, they brought two cats. But I had some mounted sergeants. No more cats. Both towers burning nicely too. Ladders abandoned. Ram burnt. Wow, on a roll. Oops, another units grabbed ladders. Not that that will help much. Yep, all routing. If I hadn't had cav that time, the cats might have made a difference. But I've learned.

Field battle with Portugal. Should be a real battle. They didn't like me nearing Pamplona and came out to meet me. Crossbows routed the jinetes. Shook them up a bit, their formation just went to pieces. But they have reinforcements incoming and I don't. And I like my position, so not moving. They keep moving to flank my right and I keep pivoting. So far. Too much and I open my left to the incoming. Interesting maneuvering on AI part though. Weird, they set their pavise xbows in enfilade to me. Bloody, but whipped first wave. Waiting for second to arrive. First had 2 Portuguese knights and 2 D Knights of some sort. Plus the usual, 1 jinettes, 3 pavise, some spears. The second bunch is smaller, and doesn't seem to want to come fight. Hmm, they are fiddling around at the entry point, not approaching. So just resting my troops. Time is on my side. And it's gonna run out for them. Yep. Oh, it was 3 DFKs, 3 pavise, 2 PK and 1 jinettes. I had 2 PA, 2 PX, 1 X, 5 AS, 2 MK and general. They had quality but didn't execute well. My right wing got beat up though. 3 DFKs is hard on spears. Had to chase off the knights before I could charge the rear. Then they all routed nicely. Now to besiege it and cut off reinforcements until I can get some up.

Metz is mine. Staufen still besieged. HRE not assaulting. Will lift that next. They are on bridge, so need to go way around. Pamplona fell. Tricky spy got the gates for me, not that it mattered, ballista arrived too. Oh, that did in Portugal. Someone snuck Lisbon out from under me.

And here comes Milan again, at Marseille. They will run out of stacks sooner or later. But they have a darned spy inside, have my own one turn out but they can't get it now.

Oops, there's Mongol notice. Turn is 65.

Hmm, why is military academy city-only if it gives a bonus to cav? Can only build merchant and gendarmes in cities. Or is it universal? If it's not, it really should be a castle building. It's useless in cities. Well, except for Crusader guilds. Forgot those. So not useless, just a bit... off point.

Are Scots Guards gone from France? Don't see them in any building.

https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/908/100013uo3.th.jpg (https://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=100013uo3.jpg)

The End of Portugal: Waiting for the Second Wave

If I could totally eliminate that HUD, that would be a very nice scenic shot.

Let me try to just fast forward a bit, see if Mongols turn up. all these sieges and battles sure slow me down. ~;) Grr, Milan storming Marseille. Can't autoresolve and expect to win that one. Odds in their favor, it thinks. Tough wall fight, but only because of that spy! Everyone gets to the fight winded! (I do miss naffas...) That was another heroic. Heroic race from one end of the city to the other, I guess.

Oh well, dealt with Portugal and now Spain wants in. And it's excommed, of course. Moors are coming back, with more siege gear, so they at least seem to know what it's for. And I am training more horsies, if they're gonna play this way.

Wow, Byz is rolling, up to 12 regions. Denmark is third, but slipped back one from its high of 9. Poland and Spain have 7, but Spain will soon have 5, I think. Or 4. Too easy to hit them from the sea. ~;) Turn 67. Early for Mongols yet. Milan back AGAIN. But it's a half stack and mostly Carroccio standards now. Spain besieging Pamplona. But I'm about to hit Valencia and Lisbon to distract them a bit. Nuremburg is Fwench. HRE forgot to garrison it. It's infested with heretics! No wonder!

Ok, got the Mongol video. Don't know where they are though. Turn 69.

Just noticed Knights Hospitalier don't have shield fix in. But moot in another day.

Bob the Insane

04-04-2007, 12:32

If I could totally eliminate that HUD, that would be a very nice scenic shot.

Apologes if I am saying somthing obvious but you can control the visibility of the 3 UI elements in the minimal UI with the F5, F6 and F7 keys...

Carl

04-04-2007, 13:02

vonsch

04-04-2007, 15:20

Apologes if I am saying somthing obvious but you can control the visibility of the 3 UI elements in the minimal UI with the F5, F6 and F7 keys...

No need to apologise! I didn't know about those ~;)

Watch out for the Carroccio Standards, they have Lock Morale and papal Guard type stats. SO they'll fight as well as papal Guard and will not rout under ANY circumstances.

Yes, nasty, but until the patch they can't assault cities. They just stand there. Missiles wear them down nicely. Never ever get in range with cav unless they are pinned. Even then it can smart.

Ok, Mongol advance guard entering on the southern shore of the Caspian. It's only 1.25 stacks though.

Wow, England has pushed the Scots back some. Scots only have Dublin and their two starting cities now. England the rest. Correction, Dublin is rebel. Original garrison. Me beating up on England early, and throwing them off the continent, helped them focus ~;). Fwance, acting its proper historical role, just centuries early. Just in test mode, but Moors brought two stacks with siege gear to Tunis this time. Almost two whole stacks. Much better. On autoresolve I suspect they can take it. But it's a fortress and the garrison is proper, so if I fight it, they will lose.

Russia hasn't done a lot this game. Poland's fault, probably. Poland has Kiev, which I suspect they grabbed early. That really hurts Russia. And Riga is Dane, though Russia besieging it now. Turks are in trouble. Byz pressuring Yerevan. Tbilisi is farthest north Turks went. Moors grabbed Baghdad on jihad. Heh, but lost it to a rebellion, it seems. Egypt has made NO ground in the Holy Land. Hungary hanging in there. Byz and them have swapped a couple of cities. Byz has Sophia, Hungary has Thess. The only real superpower is Fwance. Spain now has the Iberian penninsula except Pamplona. It's trying to move north. Bad idea. It will lose LIsbon and Valencia as soon as I play again. Fleets ready to land stacks at each, and 1-2 unit garrisons. Cordoba vulnerable too, once Lisbon is taken. And Toledo, if I can get there fast enough. Granada is too. Still one part Moor stack around though. Oh, Triploi still rebel. Guess that Moor stack aborted an attempt to come back to beat up on me. Egypt has a part stack there. That's a BAD Egyptian move. Maybe they are fixating west this game. It take like 20 turns to walk there. Oh, they managed Aleppo. Somehow. They have Dongola and Jedda. Byz has Antioch and Damascus. Bypassed central Turkey. Probably landed from Nicosia. They took Iconium from Turks though. Turks took Adana, Edessa and Treb.

There are more Mongols. 3 full stacks just east of Yerevan now, other side of mountains from advance party. That's turn 71. Maybe the farther north they enter, the earier they appear? And farther south is later?

If the patch teaches the AI to garrison better (use all free slots!) this will be a much more challenging game for me, I suspect. As a long-time student of B Liddell Hart, I can't resist the indirect approach. ~;)

Carl

04-04-2007, 15:40

Me eithier for that matter...

p.s. thier IS a bug in merchant guilds BTW. the basic Merchant Guild gives no increase. Thats allready been fixed for 1.24.

vonsch

04-04-2007, 15:58

Me eithier for that matter...

p.s. thier IS a bug in merchant guilds BTW. the basic Merchant Guild gives no increase. Thats allready been fixed for 1.24.

Oh, good. Found a couple more then!

Now back to getting my head beat in with EB. ~;)

Rozanov

04-04-2007, 16:57

Had another long sesh last night as Poland (I play at night coz electricity is cheaper for me then)

I've not played Poland before so don't know how different it is from vanilla.

basically knowing how the problemFixer makes assaulting settlements and castles a near impossibility, I just go up to them, don't bother with siege equipement and wait for them to come out and fight. Which they do and then I beat them. Dull.

As for the AI bringing along enough siege equipment - someone seems to have forgotten to tell them, as all the castle defences I played (in this campaign) (up to 1170) the AI has never brought up any thing except infantry and cavalry and then built siege equipment on-site. The infantry then gets slaughtered, the cavalry run away.

For me the extreme rate of fire of towers makes the game unplayable, it restricts the human players choice of how they are going to play the game.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the radius of influence for defending units has increased as well. In eastern castles (the first level of stone castles) I can put 1 unit of peasants 1/3 way between the gateway and the plaza and they can happily keep 6 towers firing until the enemy can somehow neutralise the unit. (Added bonus - move back to the plaza and see all the towers behind it become active!) Realistically archer towers should have 1 bowman firing at a steady rate from each arrow slit. This would force the defender to either have men on walls or a stronger ground level defence.

Managed another couple of crusades. Pulled off the "baldrick's surprise" manouver the second time, much closer run thing - the defending general nearly got back to the central plaza before the 3 minutes were up.

But the army was so severely mauled it lost control of jerusalem before it could rebuild etc.

The second crusade was a success though - led by the same general (by now KING!) who had got stuck in a mountain pass in northern Italy - trapped by HRE and venetian armies (luckily both allies!) so it was an easy matter to get him to jerusalem - once he'd recruited enough troops for the crusade and this time not only the assault succeed (the rebel garrison having been reduced by unsuccesssful Egyptian attacks) but there was enough troops left to hang on, build churches, priests etc. King (by 1170) now has max loyalty, dread, command and piety and an awesome retinue. I hate to think what's going to happen when he dies.

Mongols have been reported (apparently at war with the Turks) but I sent a diplomat to mosul and baghdad to check out their progress and found no sign of them - mind you diplomats do a have limited LoS. Not around Antioch either as I have 2 merchants there - very profitable.

Elsewhere well, I'm at war with Russia (but have taken Helsinki and Novgorad from them - well if you will start wars with people), The Danes have been held in check and I've taken Stockholm - still a village in 1150 (but I've noticed your comments above); and now I have Milan trying to taken Magdeburg from me.

All in all I have Krackow, Halych, Stettin, Riga, Vilnius, Thorn, Breslau, Magdeburg, Stockholm, Helsinki, Novgorad and Jerusalem (apologies for any spelling errors) So not going too badly. The Hungarians - allies - have kept themselves out of my lands pretty much; HRE have been destroyed (not by me - we were allies); I have an alliance with the Pope - does help if the Pope is Polish half the time, the other factions don't seem to be building many priests! (noticed this in previous campaign too.) Ventians / Hungarians and the Byzzies are having their usual bun fight in the Balkans - also noticed a huge rebel army outside Sofia and soon after got a request to blockade the port (so either the rebel army took Sofia or one of my enemies did.)

Also noticed the Inquisitors are pretty rubbish - have they been nerfed? Or do they take time to build up their "strength"?

------------------

Will give this a rest now - I have to wait for someone to send me the big 1.2 patch (I don't have broadband), try that out and then get back to you, once I've played that a while, and you've seen what needs fixing in it!

Bob the Insane

04-04-2007, 17:30

Well life for the Polish under the Player's control is certainly a little harder...

It is around 1150 (the Mongols turned up in 1148!)...

We have taken Vienna from the HRE and Budapest from the Hungarians...

Fortunately after my capture of Vienna the Pope finally intervened to stop the fighting and the HRE stacks skulked off back to there own lands. The Hungarians have besieged Krakow so they are now formally on my list. They have discovered thet sending units of heavy knights into our open lands simply makes them fodder for the Polish nobles...

I did see something really interesting, I have a large stack approaching Budapest which had a half stack of defenders plus a full stack stood outside. I was trying to bait this full stack into attacking me when a venetian (my allies) diplomat wandered to the full stack, did a little dance and it simply disappeared! Bribed, great... :2thumbsup:

The battle for Jerusalim was great, even though I lost, and a testimate that the the AI can take a settlement on the battlemap if it has some artillery. A large Egyptian army turned up with a couple of Balista units...

Unlike what I stated before, they did not attack the towers, but rather they attacked the walls either side of the towers first. They knocked a hole in one side and got the other down to 60% before the missiles ran out...

They had one tower, one set of ladders and two rams (the rams where never used). The tower caught alight as it docked against the wall. I posted one unit of Spear Militia above the spot where the ladder was used and with the aid of the towers either side easily defended their section of wall. But even with the towers still working the breach by the gate made all the difference. They got troops in and my mix of Spear Militia, Town Militia and peasants (plus a general) where not really up to holding the line. Don't get me wrong, they fought well and long, and the towers took a devestating toll on the attackers, but once engaged with my troops there was a lot of friendly fire from the towers too... In the end I have a couple of depleted peasant units and a couple of other guys trying to hold the square. All that was left of the attackers were a few Marmaluk horse archers adn their general. Their general had long since lost the rest of his guards but was always in the thick of the battle and must have killed 10's of men (if not more) by himself... Once the fighting in the square was done and the enemy general dragged down and butchered, all I had left were the two peasant units containing two men each... But the battle did not finish, the enemy balista crews where still out there and not moving. I tried tempting them closer to the walls but then my remaining four guys spontaniously routed and the battle, and the city, was lost...

Part of the reason for this loss was that the orginal crusader army was away taking Demascus at the time. I took it but could not hold it (so i gave it to my closest ally, the Danes :laugh4: ), and asked the Pope for another crusade to Jerusalim. This was granted and it is under siege by good Polish christians again...

Finally the Russian have attacked us, from nowhere... The Dread path thing really is full of fighting... They started with a blockade, but a large army has also turned up on our borders... We shall see how they deal with polish nobles and spearmen...

Interesting to see two persepctives on the same faction... I really do not know what I did to provoke the HRE into attacking me, but the loss of the trade income and the need to maintain a defensive force (plus the crusade) has robbed me of the ability to expand east...

Carl

04-04-2007, 20:33

Unlike what I stated before, they did not attack the towers, but rather they attacked the walls either side of the towers first. They knocked a hole in one side and got the other down to 60% before the missiles ran out...

Thats weird as Ballista shouldn't even be able to damage towers strictly speaking.

They had one tower, one set of ladders and two rams (the rams where never used). The tower caught alight as it docked against the wall. I posted one unit of Spear Militia above the spot where the ladder was used and with the aid of the towers either side easily defended their section of wall. But even with the towers still working the breach by the gate made all the difference. They got troops in and my mix of Spear Militia, Town Militia and peasants (plus a general) where not really up to holding the line. Don't get me wrong, they fought well and long, and the towers took a devastating toll on the attackers, but once engaged with my troops there was a lot of friendly fire from the towers too... In the end I have a couple of depleted peasant units and a couple of other guys trying to hold the square. All that was left of the attackers were a few Marmaluk horse archers adn their general. Their general had long since lost the rest of his guards but was always in the thick of the battle and must have killed 10's of men (if not more) by himself... Once the fighting in the square was done and the enemy general dragged down and butchered, all I had left were the two peasant units containing two men each... But the battle did not finish, the enemy Ballista crews where still out there and not moving. I tried tempting them closer to the walls but then my remaining four guys spontaneously routed and the battle, and the city, was lost...

Thats the kind of siege battles I wanted to see. Vastly outnumbered and outclassed forces holding the enemy to a Pyhrric Victory.

Well life for the Polish under the Player's control is certainly a little harder...

Good to hear, can you spot any obvious ways to make it harder off the top of your head, (apart from the obvious better AI opponents)?

As for the AI bringing along enough siege equipment - someone seems to have forgotten to tell them, as all the castle defenses I played (in this campaign) (up to 1170) the AI has never brought up any thing except infantry and cavalry and then built siege equipment on-site. The infantry then gets slaughtered, the cavalry run away.

I know, thats why I've mentioned it's a problem ATM. The AI isn't using ANYWHERE near enough siege equipment ATM and it's really hurting their performance IMHO. It's an issue i'm working on but we have to be careful that we don't have the AI building stacks entirely of artillery, (which it will if you give it enough artillery to recruit).

For me the extreme rate of fire of towers makes the game unplayable, it restricts the human players choice of how they are going to play the game.

It's SUPPOSED to restrict your choices. I'm trying to put a complete stop to the vanilla situation where you could build a ram and a couple of ladders and take an entire settlement with no more than a couple of hundred losses even if the AI Garrison was as strong as your force. Frankly you SHOULD need to outnumber the enemy Garrison 3 and 4 to one with similar quality troops if your going to attempt to assault over the walls, rather than knock them down. Historically speaking even besieging forces 10 times the size of the defending force suffered horrendous losses taking a fortified position. Rebuild ProblemFixers Fortifications are quite mild by comparison to the real thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the radius of influence for defending units has increased as well. In eastern castles (the first level of stone castles) I can put 1 unit of peasants 1/3 way between the gateway and the plaza and they can happily keep 6 towers firing until the enemy can somehow neutralize the unit. (Added bonus - move back to the plaza and see all the towers behind it become active!)

It's because of stupid AI again~:(, they don't spread their forces out on the walls enough and as a result a lot of the towers that should be firing in vanilla don't have anyone near them to activate them. To try and cure this i increased the activation radius, although 6 towers sounds excessive to me, It shouldn't be more than 2 in that situation as the activation radius is a Little over the distance between 2 towers.

Realistically archer towers should have 1 bowman firing at a steady rate from each arrow slit. This would force the defender to either have men on walls or a stronger ground level defense.

The problem with those statements is that realistically speaking, (even taking into account the smaller number of men per unit when compared to reality, and thus the smaller size of the fortifications when compared to the real thing), not only should you armies be bigger, (even on huge unit sizes it's impossibbile to defend more than half the walls in most forms of settlement), in terms of numbers of units. The walls are currently too big for the unit scales.

In addition the towers are a fraction the size they should be when compared to the walls, and both the walls and towers should have dozens of extra arrow slits in them per section of wall/per tower.

Lastly, Historically speaking having less men available WAS NOT a disadvantage for the defender, (at least not compared to in an open Field battle or what you are suggesting). The entire POINT of my changes is that having more men as the attacker IS NOT an automatic victory or even a near automatic victory. Sieges where historically meat grinders that cost the lives of 1000's.

Thats precisely what Rebuild ProblemFixer is trying to achieve. i'm not necessarily doing it JUST for the historical accuracy, thats just an extra reason. The big point is that it makes it impossibbile to quickly and easily take settlements. Even if you have vastly overwhelming forces with lots of siege gear, (4-5 towers and 4-5 ladders plus 2-3 rams are advised per army attacking if you don't bring anything to knock down the walls), you can and will suffer 100's, (even 1000's, at higher wall levels), in dead.

To explain how all the above interfaces with your statement. My point is that YES the arrow towers do fire unrealistically high numbers of arrows from each slot. but thats because each slot is having to fire arrows for all the dozens of arrow slots that aren't present on the walls, they are also having to make up for all the missing units that should be present defending the walls and the total uselessness of most crossbow and Gunpowder units when on walls.

Managed another couple of crusades. Pulled off the "baldrick's surprise" maneuver the second time, much closer run thing - the defending general nearly got back to the central plaza before the 3 minutes were up.

But the army was so severely mauled it lost control of Jerusalem before it could rebuild etc.

The second crusade was a success though - led by the same general (by now KING!) who had got stuck in a mountain pass in northern Italy - trapped by HRE and venetian armies (luckily both allies!) so it was an easy matter to get him to Jerusalem - once he'd recruited enough troops for the crusade and this time not only the assault succeed (the rebel garrison having been reduced by unsuccessful Egyptian attacks) but there was enough troops left to hang on, build churches, priests etc. King (by 1170) now has max loyalty, dread, command and piety and an awesome retinue. I hate to think what's going to happen when he dies.

I find it's best to send the priests ahead of the Crusade and convert everyone first, otherwise holding the holy land is outright impossibbile.

OK, Mongol advance guard entering on the southern shore of the Caspian. It's only 1.25 stacks though.

That always spawns their regardless and actually spawns at the same time as you get the warning about the Mongols being sighted, (i.e. the one you get BEFORE the video warning turns up, hope I've been clear enough?).

There are more Mongols. 3 full stacks just east of Yerevan now, other side of mountains from advance party. That's turn 71. Maybe the farther north they enter, the earlier they appear? And farther south is later?

Nahh, thats the invasion the Video talks about.

Wow, England has pushed the Scots back some. Scots only have Dublin and their two starting cities now. England the rest. Correction, Dublin is rebel. Original garrison. Me beating up on England early, and throwing them off the continent, helped them focus .

Sadly that almost always happen in my experience as soon as turn 30 goes past. The Scots just can't seem to beat the English in an actual fight. Not sure why though.

If the patch teaches the AI to garrison better (use all free slots!) this will be a much more challenging game for me, I suspect. As a long-time student of B Liddell Hart, I can't resist the indirect approach.

The sooner they fix that and other hard-coded AI decisions the better.

To give you an idea of how good REAL defenses where, the walls of Pontfract Castle, (I live near the ruins), where, (including the earth berm they where built on), 1 MILE from top to bottom. That was so High that the mortars of the Parliamentarian Forces in the English Civil War COULD NOT fire their projectiles high enough to get over the walls. If you where to walk around the outer walls all the way you would have walked a distance of 15 miles. The walls where so think than even Cannon could not bring them down and the castle was besieged constantly for nearly the entirety of the Civil War, surrendering only when the rest of the Royalist forces did. AT which point the Parliamentarian Leader (forget his name i'm afraid), had the castle totally demolished with gunpowder. Today only a few stones and some of the earthworks remain.

To put the height into perspective. The walls where, (approximately), 1.5 times as high as the Twin Towers when they where standing or TWICE the height of the Empire State Building.

Bob the Insane

04-04-2007, 21:24

You mean this castle??

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/Pontefract_Castle.JPG

A mile high?? Are you sure...

Carl

04-04-2007, 22:57

A mile high?? Are you sure...

Thats what the Historians at the last Fair, (they have a fair every few years/every year their that is about the old castle) I went to their said and the same info was on a TV documentary a few weeks later.

Remember, it's earthworks+walls for the full mile. the walls themselves where probably only a fraction of that height, (they must have been pretty thick to withstand cannon fire and if they where thick they where probably tall though, so probably taller than your average wall). I can't tell you how authentic that picture is BTW as naturally the castle is no longer standing~:(.

EDIT: the Wikipedia entry is very incomplete. Their isn't enough stone left of it to build a small house, the Fair is traditionally held next to the ruins that are left. Calling it dilapidated is like saying the Richstag was merely scorched by fire when Hitler had it burnt to the ground.

The only part worth mentioning is whats left of the Dungeons.

Here's an Aeriel Pic of all thats left of Pontefract Castle:

here (http://www.multimap.com/map/photo.cgi?client=public&X=446000&Y=422500&width=700&height=400&gride=446000&gridn=422750&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=&pc=&zm=0&scale=5000&multimap.x=375&multimap.y=302)

The Clearing in the Upper Center surrounded by trees.

Rozanov

04-05-2007, 12:54

Re: castles.

Pontefract is pretty much an exception in terms of its height.

In both my test campaigns I was defending / attacking level 1 stone castle, with a single tier of defences, 12th century pre-gunpowder.

So they're not mega citadels.

I've been through some of my collection of castle guide books (I've been visiting them (castles not the guide books) in England and wales since i was nipper - (ie many years)) and I can assure you most castles similar in design to level 1 stone castles would not have a vast number of arrow slots in either the towers or the walls. Given the level 1 walls are only a 2 stories high and the towers 3 (unimproved) you simply won't have space to put more than a couple of arrow slots in the walls and a couple in the towers - walls would have no more than 1 slot per 10 feet (3m).

Ok about needing to have the rate of fire upped to compensate for lack of firing positions in vanilla, I suppose it depends on whether you see the towers and walls as being the garrison, with anything extra as a supplement or whether the visible user controlled troops are the garrison with the walls and towers as a supplement. (I tend to the latter, the Problemfixer to the former?)

(Re the activating 6 towers thing - it's partly down to the excellent design of the approach to Thorn and similar castles - there are the gate towers, the towers next to them then a right-angle then another tower then a right angle to the rest of the (short) wall to another tower. You really don't want to make frontal assault on it - and with a unit of spears on the walls on either side of the gate towers you can zip around to stop anyone coming over the walls.)

As for the design philosophy of problemFixer I'm not sure how far down the road one should go in forcing gameplay in a particular direction. If people want to blitz, then that's their problem. If they can't adapt their game style to make for a longer, more absorbing game then they have an issue that needs addressing, not the game. For me, and despite the various bugs etc, the balance is fine for my style of play - after 4 campaigns I finally completed one within the time frame (and that took about three weeks playing for a couple of hours a day). If people say it's too easy they should change how they play the game. (well that's my 'umble opinion anyway! :))

Oh well let's see if the patch is out and I can tell a mate of mine to start downloading it.

(ER ... not so fast - the 1.2 patch has a couple of nasties in it, so looks like next week at the earliest.)

Carl

04-05-2007, 15:40

Re: castles.

Pontefract is pretty much an exception in terms of its height.

Oh I know that, (sorry should have been clear on that point), It would easily be a Citadel in game, I believe it was the largest castle ever built in england and one of the largest castles ever built anywhere in the world, (don't quote me on those last two, though as my memory is hazy on those).

I've been through some of my collection of castle guide books (I've been visiting them (castles not the guide books) in England and wales since i was nipper - (I.e. many years)) and I can assure you most castles similar in design to level 1 stone castles would not have a vast number of arrow slots in either the towers or the walls. Given the level 1 walls are only a 2 stories high and the towers 3 (unimproved) you simply won't have space to put more than a couple of arrow slots in the walls and a couple in the towers - walls would have no more than 1 slot per 10 feet (3m).

Ohh I know that, I've been to Norwich castle as well which is mostly intact, (I believe only the Curtain wall is missing), and thats much smaller. My point was that Real defenses of Castle where MUCH taller than the one in game which are frankly barely 10 stories high at the most on the largest sizes. But more to the point, even defenses as small as the ones in the game wold have had arrow slits in the walls and the towers (in comparison to the wall size), are far too small. The Towers would easily have been several stories higher than the walls and rather wider to boot, (real castle towers aren't the ultra thin ultra tall things fairy tales make out after all, their virtually miniature keeps in most cases). Overall I'd expect a minimum of 4 arrow slits per tower, per level, per side. And at least 2-3 levels on the tower plus at least another 6 arrow slits per level on the walls and at least 2 levels their. Thats 8-12 tower slots and 12 wall slots. so 20-24 slots in the space CA has put 2 in reality.

Even at one arrow every 4 seconds that gives the 20 arrow slots a fire rate of around 300 arrows a minute, which is not that much below what I've actually given them.

OK about needing to have the rate of fire upped to compensate for lack of firing positions in vanilla, I suppose it depends on whether you see the towers and walls as being the garrison, with anything extra as a supplement or whether the visible user controlled troops are the garrison with the walls and towers as a supplement. (I tend to the latter, the Problemfixer to the former?)

I'm somwhere between the 2, much like M2TW/RTW are in general. Namely their is a Kind of fixed Garrison that is invisible and is just used for manning towers. But their is also the visible Garrison which works in tandem with the invisible component and which is still a very important part of matters. I've merely raised the power of the towers to a more sensible level. Given the option I'd just reprogram the engine to give extra free units on top of the actual troops present for siege battles and make you have to put units actually in the towers to man them. Sadly this isn't something i can do as that would require a MAJOR re-write of the engine, which requires access to the source code and knowledge of a form of programming I know nothing about.

As for the design philosophy of ProblemFixer I'm not sure how far down the road one should go in forcing game-play in a particular direction. If people want to blitz, then that's their problem. If they can't adapt their game style to make for a longer, more absorbing game then they have an issue that needs addressing, not the game. For me, and despite the various bugs etc, the balance is fine for my style of play - after 4 campaigns I finally completed one within the time frame (and that took about three weeks playing for a couple of hours a day). If people say it's too easy they should change how they play the game. (well that's my 'umble opinion anyway! :))

I'm doing it mainly because the various blitzers out their don't WANT to blitz, but at the same time the kind of play-style that makes the game a challenge and isn't blitzing is actually quite boring for them and they don't enjoy simply sitting their giving the AI chance to build up when they could have ripped it to pieces 5 times over. What i'm trying to do is make sustained blitzes and early blitz's against the rebels very difficult for the player to pull off. The only way to do this easily is to make attacks on provinces very expensive for the player to pull off. Whilst a better AI and better garrisons can most definitely help this, the much stronger towers really ensure it. The Historical realism of it is simply a nice bonus which also means I don't feel like i'm being a-historical about it.

On the flip side i'm not totally against reducing the fire rate, (stone walls and stone castles are proving a Little hard on the AI, I just need to see how they do once they get good quantities of Siege artillery available before I decide how to lower it), I'm just pointing out that in general I WANT siege assaults to be very costly on the attacker. Stone castle and Ordinary Stone Walls SHOULD be possible to take without siege artillery, but it should still cost well over half a stack, and close to a full stack in dead doing it. As Bob the Insane has pointed out with his battle, artillery makes a VERY big difference to the effectiveness of the AI. Trying to claim the walls is a very bloody affair and as a result the AI often does badly at it due to it's lack of sufficient numbers, (something i'm trying to cure). However, when given a way to fight it out on the ground with significant numbers of men, it can actually make significant headway.

It's also worth noting that the Siege AI is going to be heavily re-written in the patch and I expect that to make sieges MUCH more difficult for the player as the AI won't just stand their and be slaughtered as it was. hell, given enough siege towers/ladders I've seen the AI give me quite major challenges in Custom Battles. It just doesn't build enough siege equipment on site ATM.

vonsch

04-05-2007, 16:32

So, Carl...

Since patch is delayed (again)...? ~;)

Heh, don't let me stampede you. I'm playing EB for the first time. Nice work there.

Carl

04-05-2007, 16:57

I'll probably get V1.24 out sometime tonight. i'm just doing my own quality assurance ATM.

Carl

04-05-2007, 23:40

Just a quick update. Good job I did my own QA, I've found a Little bug in the traits, nothing major but it's taking some tracking down i'm afraid, so it looks like the release is going to be delayed by 24 hours or so.

Sorry about this.

(The irony ehh:smash:).

vonsch

04-06-2007, 01:24

Heh, no sweat. I'm beating my head against the steppes as the Saka. They make your Russians look rich.

Bongaroo

04-06-2007, 05:18

I think something with the mongels is causing a ctd. not sure if you knew about this one. Its not on the first wave as they arrived a few turns ago. Any chance of getting a tiny fix for this like the last one? Spainish campaign is really taking off but there are a lot of interesting things happening. Crusade to jerusalem, milan forcing a few big countries into vasslage and a byzantine empire that is sprawling. Really shaping up.

thanks again for all the hard work, really enjoying the playtesting.

Rozanov

04-06-2007, 15:35

Carl wrote:

Ohh I know that, I've been to Norwich castle as well which is mostly intact, (I believe only the Curtain wall is missing), and thats much smaller. My point was that Real defenses of Castle where MUCH taller than the one in game which are frankly barely 10 stories high at the most on the largest sizes. But more to the point, even defenses as small as the ones in the game wold have had arrow slits in the walls and the towers (in comparison to the wall size), are far too small. The Towers would easily have been several stories higher than the walls and rather wider to boot, (real castle towers aren't the ultra thin ultra tall things fairy tales make out after all, their virtually miniature keeps in most cases). Overall I'd expect a minimum of 4 arrow slits per tower, per level, per side. And at least 2-3 levels on the tower plus at least another 6 arrow slits per level on the walls and at least 2 levels their. Thats 8-12 tower slots and 12 wall slots. so 20-24 slots in the space CA has put 2 in reality.

I suppose the problem here is that there were such a wide variety of castle designs adopted through europe (and I know nothing about north africa or the middle east) that it is difficult to know exactly what castle the game should use as its template.

The basic way the game works (if I'm correct) is that for every level of increase in castle development you get an extra story of wall defences. Thus for a level 1 stone castle you get 1 level, up to the level 3 where you get 3 stories plus towers (and you can add another level on top of the towers for ballistas or cannon.) Given the way the game works that's about as good as we can expect, it's a workable rule, and not to distant from much castle design (which changed over the course of the 11th-14th centuries.)

That's for the curtain wall where we can do the fighting. The larger towers (keeps) we can't fight in but are taller still.

10 stories seems a tad much for most medieval buildings, especially defensive structures - if by that you mean so many floors inside the building. Height can, of course be added to by building on an artificial mound (motte) or high rocky outcrop. I doubt there are any medieval keeps with more than 5 floors internally.

Arrow slits - well I was in Carmarthen yesterday and had a look at the castle there (or what's left of it) - the main gatehouse facing into the town had 0 arrow slits visible but a tower facing over the river had about 6 (total) on three levels. Rarely do you get more than 2 arrow slits facing in any particular direction on any particular direction. (nb we're talking mid-range curtain walls here.) (nb The designers obviously didn't expect trouble from the townsfolk, only outsiders coming up the river.)

My figure of 1 arrow slit per 10 feet came from the plan of Manorbier castle where there is a "fighting gallery" so equipped. It is the wall with the most arrow slits. Point to remember about castle walls - they have 2 functions: physical barrier and fighting platform. If you put too many arrow slits in you weaken the physical structure, pretty important when people are firing large boulders at you.

Again with the stories - if you look at even great castles as Caernarvon the main wall has three (tall) stories with towers another story up with tiny towers on them up another. Most towers would not be more than 2 stories higher than the curtain wall, unless they were serving as accomodation quarters or part of a highly defended gateway. I'd agree they were not flimsy fairy tale towers, but neither were they all massive mini-keeps (but a lot depends on which castle you are assuming as your template.)

So I don't find the number of arrow slots on the CA castles to be too few - and remember, the field of fire from them was highly restricted so you could only fire if there was something directly in your line of sight. Also it would be unusual for every arrow slot to have someone behind them or that they could find a target all the time.

Bob the Insane

04-06-2007, 18:28

Lets get away from the realsim of castle towers and walls for a moment and look at concepts...

For a settlement defended by a reasonable number of militia units (say 5 or 6 Militia Spears) and attacked by a larger force that is equiped only with the siege equipment built on site (rams, ladders and towers). Who effective should the castle defenses be?

In vanilla a single unit with ladders will make it pretty safely to the walls and get up and fight. Your only problem as the attacker is keeping the morale up enough that they keep on fighting. The towers will cause casaulties but hardly in sufficient number to impact the attacking force (unless they hang around under the towers for a long time as the AI does at present). So the only real effect towers provide in vanilla is a constant morale hit for units under fire and some defence against rams and towers. But the loophole is a high morale and good combat unit (footknight) with ladders is nearly unstoppable unless you have equivilent units on the walls defending.

The whole point of the changes are to try and make life a little more difficult for the rusher than simply building a bunch of ladders and maybe a ram to overcome every settlements in the early game...

The (possibly unrealistic) fire rate of fire from the towers prevents this and forces a (overall more overall realistic?) senario of having to starve out defenders in a siege until you develop the technologies for catapults and such, unless you are willing to sacrific a large number of troops to assault the fortifications.

That last paragraph is what is trying to be achieved... Would you agree with that as a concept?

Carl

04-06-2007, 21:26

Hey, thanks for that explanation Bob. you've explained the essence of the vanilla siege issues much better than i did. I can usually explain the issue in very simplistic terms, but it takes a few runs at it to get all the details painted out.

The Realism issue was just a side debate. Me saying that it's also not necessarily historical the level of losses you suffer in vanilla to the towers.

And I agree with the last Paragraph fully.

In fact I'll quote it to remind everyone:

The (possibly unrealistic) fire rate of fire from the towers prevents this and forces a (overall more overall realistic?) scenario of having to starve out defenders in a siege until you develop the technologies for catapults and such, unless you are willing to sacrifice a large number of troops to assault the fortifications.

On the other hand I've been busy on a Spanish test campaign today and went after Valencia, (El Cid had died of old age by this point). and I suffered some worryingly high losses considering the level of settlement.

The defenders where:

4 Jinetes
3 Mailed Knights
6 Spear militia
6 Javlinmen

All with 1 Experience.

I had:

8 Sword & Buckler Men
3 Trebuchets
1 Dismounted Chivalric Knight
3 Pavise Crossbowmen
1 General

I knocked 4 holes in the walls with the trebs and tried to knock the towers down without success, (the Trebs kept missing as the towers are so small. Something I intend to fix).

I then charged in with the foot units, and attacked the massed rebel forces.

Now during the charge, and subsequent melee that sent them running for the town square I probably lost about 2 units worth of Sword & Buckler Men and a half a units worth of Crossbows.

A this point I got Charged by the mailed Knights and pounded by the Jinetes, the Mailed Knights also just managed to activate the gate towers. as a Result my losses instantly doubled and in taking the square I lost some more including most of the Dismounted Chivalric Knights.

After healing & merging I was left with:

4 Sword & Buckler Men
3 Trebuchets
0.25 Dismounted Chivalric Knights
2 Pavise Crossbowmen
1 General

Don't get me wrong, at least half my dead for the melee units where from being pounded by Javelins and charged by Cav. But at the same time, my Sword & Buckler Men where each around twice as good as any of the melee units, (except the Cav), that the enemy had and I killed a fair few of both the Cav and infantry with the Trebs Missed shots and collapsing walls.

My point? I'm worried that the towers even with a decent amount of siege gear available are a bit on the powerful side. My primary worry is the way in which even high quality units attacking a breached wall are being badly ripped up by low level towers.

On the other hand I also don't think their totally overpowered. Just allowing trebs to hit wooden towers will really help make siege assaults easier, and taking the two gate towers out would have made my losses much lower in that attack.

Currently however, my aim of a significantly superior force, (either in numbers or quality), being able to take the lower levels of walls with sufficient ladders/siege Towers isn't going to work. With the slow down Ladders/Towers cause and the losses incurred on the walls it would be nearly impossibbile for any force to take any settlement without artillery ATM.

That wasn't my intention. My intention was to make walls a very dangerous opponents, (for the reasons bob the Insane outlined), which make any siege require large quantities of troops, (more total power than the defender by a fair way in effect), and plenty of siege gear, and even, (in the case of larger walls), artillery if you wish to take the settlement in an actual assault.

BUT, Stone Walls and below where intended to be tackle-able with sufficient a sufficient overall power advantage over the enemy WITHOUT needing artillery, it was just meant to be very costly to pull it off.

Thus I suspect a slowdown in fire rate IS in order, but I'll wait a while to decide exactly how much of a slowdown is required.

@Bangaroo: Right, i' looking for it now. I haven't seen it in my Hotseat test campaigns so i'm going to have to use a normal campaign to find it. This is taking some time. I'm up to turn 64 with my Spanish campaign and the second wave won't show up for a minimum of 20 turns after the first, so where looking at turn 100+.

However, doing this is going to delay the release of V1.24 still furthar. My apologies

Can anyone else confirm this bug in the meantime please? If you get it could you copy your error log up as well please. Specifically the last 50 lines or so.

Bongaroo

04-07-2007, 01:18

00:34:05.796 [system.io] [warning] open: data/terrain/aerial_map/tree_models/textures/conifer_01.TGA.dds is missing
00:34:05.812 [system.io] [warning] open: data/terrain/aerial_map/tree_models/textures/conifer_winter.TGA.dds is missing
00:34:05.859 [system.io] [warning] open: ProblemFixer/data/world/maps/base/water_surface.tga.dds is missing
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus3>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus3>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus3>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:31.203 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <nicolau_copernicus3>
: <prior_build> is unavailable from event <CharacterTurnEnd>
when testing <SettlementBuildingFinished> condition
00:34:32.578 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <0117_Update_Religion>
: <target_religion> is unavailable from event <FactionTurnStart>
00:34:32.578 [game.script] [error] Trigger processing error in <0118_Update_Religion>
: <target_religion> is unavailable from event <FactionTurnStart>
00:34:34.734 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/001.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.734 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/001.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.734 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/001.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.734 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/001.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.734 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/062.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/062.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/062.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/062.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/075.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/075.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/075.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/075.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/008.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/008.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/008.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/008.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/024.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/024.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/024.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.750 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/024.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/000.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/000.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/000.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/000.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/049.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/049.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/049.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/049.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/052.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/052.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/052.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/052.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/034.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/034.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/034.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/034.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/017.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/017.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/017.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/017.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/044.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/044.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/044.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/civilians/044.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/058.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/058.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/058.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/058.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/079.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/079.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/079.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.828 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/rogues/079.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/090.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/090.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/090.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/090.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/066.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/066.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/066.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/066.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/065.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/065.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/065.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/princesses/065.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/055.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/055.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/055.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/055.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/077.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/077.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/077.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/merchants/077.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/027.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/027.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/027.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.843 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/eastern_european/portraits/portraits/young/priests/027.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.890 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/middle_eastern/portraits/portraits/young/heretics/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.890 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/middle_eastern/portraits/portraits/young/heretics/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.890 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/middle_eastern/portraits/portraits/young/heretics/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.890 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/middle_eastern/portraits/portraits/young/heretics/085.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.890 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/middle_eastern/portraits/portraits/young/heretics/064.tga, using the default culture path if it exists
00:34:34.890 [data.missing] [warning] Cannot find the portrait path: data/ui/middle_eastern/portraits/portraits/young/heretics/064.tga, using the default culture path if it exists

Carl

04-07-2007, 01:35

Think you could go back furthar? Each of the "<nicolau_copernicus3>" entries happens once a turn, (i'm not even sure what it refers to TBH), you need to go back 4 or 5 turns preffrablly.

Thanks.

Bob the Insane

04-07-2007, 01:56

Thus I suspect a slowdown in fire rate IS in order, but I'll wait a while to decide exactly how much of a slowdown is required.

That could well be the case, especially to give the AI move of a chance... Balancing must be so much fun... :2thumbsup:

I do wonder what effect the correct implimentation of shields after the patch will have...

vonsch

04-07-2007, 04:56

That could well be the case, especially to give the AI move of a chance... Balancing must be so much fun... :2thumbsup:

I do wonder what effect the correct implimentation of shields after the patch will have...

And why are you assuming the implementation will be correct, hmmm? ~;)

History argues against it!

Carl

04-07-2007, 13:09

Balancing must be so much fun... :2thumbsup:

:laugh4:, you said it.

I'll get back to my Spanish campaign, the main Mongol attack showed up 2 turns ago so I've got between 18 and 38 turns to wait for the next wave.

I'm also trying to get hold of the files from the unofficial 1.2 patch, but from a few titbit's people have posted it looks like i'm going to have a LOT of work to do.

vonsch

04-07-2007, 16:35

I'm also trying to get hold of the files from the unofficial 1.2 patch, but from a few titbit's people have posted it looks like i'm going to have a LOT of work to do.

I suspected that might be the case. There were a lot of fixed (mentioned in general) in that list. So I'm sure they skew balance and lots of other things more than insignificantly.

Carl

04-07-2007, 16:45

Soooo true vonsch. Saw gunpowder at turn 81, (a first for me~:)), am now at turn 90 and the first Mongol wave is gone. they settled down then the settlement revolted so they lost all but a single stack of troops really annoying, i'm gonna have to include a few trick to stop that i think.

todorp

04-07-2007, 23:00

Great mod Carl, I can play the vanila MTW2 only with your ProblemFixer.:applause:

Bob the Insane

04-07-2007, 23:30

Dismounted Polish Nobles have identical stats to the standard Spearmen available to the Polish.. Is that correct?

Carl

04-08-2007, 00:00

Bob the Insane

04-08-2007, 04:13

Nearly correct. They have a smaller anti-Cav bonus and light spears instead of ordinary spears, (so they are better vs. infantry). Lastly they have +1 Armour over the standard Spearmen to begin with, but 1 less Armour upgrade so it's the same after all upgrades.

I'll look into making the difference larger BTW.

I was a little surprised when I saw it because they are the second level infantry after spearmen ( and they appear no better) and because their stats when so different to their mounted version...

I am at 1204 and the world is an interesting place... We hold a large empire in northeast europe stretching into the steps. The Russians hold the steps, the Truks hold the land to the east of the Black Sea, South of them and stretching into Asia Minor is the Mongal empire. The Byz hold their traditional lands plus much of what was Venetian lands. The Pope hold most of Northern Itally inculding Venice. The Danes hold their homlands plus all of what was the HRE. The Hungarians hold a few provinces to the west of the Black Sea. French lands are divided between Frence, Spain and the English. Spain also hold most of Iberia including the former Portugese lands. The Moors hold all of North Africa and Bagdad. The Scotish hold all of Britain and Ireland. The Middle east is divided between us (the Polish), the French and the Mongels. Egypt holds it's traditional lands and Arabia...

I have been at constant war with the Hungarians (and have recently had the resources free to actually go on the offecsive against them). I have been fights the Russians for a while too and have force them back with many battlesto their starting lands and further east... I was vassels of the Byz for a long time, but for now I am a vassel of the Danes.

We hold Jerusalim and Acre in the Middle East and have been fighting the Egyptains for a long time to keep them. We assisted the Frenach in taking Damascus and the Mongels hold Antioch (I am allied to both the French and Mongels). This has taken some pressure off me.

I plan to secure myself against the Hungarians and the Russians before seeking independance again.

The Polish Royal line is a mess and the present Polish King is utterly insane...

I have also noticed that Bombard are fighteningly accurate. Where they always like that or have you altered them?

saurial

04-08-2007, 05:39

Hello,

Sorry I haven't had a chance to post yet Carl -- been quite busy with work recently and just today got the chance to dig into PF a bit. Anyway, started a campaign as Portugal (short victory conditions) on VH/VH. A couple initial observations / questions.

- The zero starting cash is interesting. My understand was that it (along with the large garrisons) was meant to slow blitzing, but in the case of Portugal (income starts in the red even with max taxes), it has almost the opposite effect. You have lots of troops and little money -- you have to throw them at something immediately. The rebel garrisons are certainly buffed however, though that may have two unintended side effects:
a) The rebel AI seems much more prone to sallying (because its generally better than my initial forces in the strength calculator). This actually tends to speed up initial territory acquisition, as the player can often beat the sallying rebels (player has a general to help with morale and has calvary for formed charges in the open plains in front of the walls). Consequently, I found myself getting towns on the turn I siege them, without having to contend with the towers or starve the AI out. On the first turn, for instance, I sieged Zarazoga and the AI immediately sallied, leading to a heroic victory for me (700 killed, 90 dead). Maybe giving each rebel town a rebel general would help?
b) Because of those big rebel garrisons, the other factions are much more tempting targets for early warfare. While its not great for diplomacy, I'd rather hit Cordoba and fight 2 units than Zarazoga and fight 12. Is there any way to encourage the AI to garrison better?

- Did you change the mechanism for unit experience? After my first battle my general and 2 units of Jinetes were at 3 bronze chevrons each with only light casualties (both Jinete units were around 35/40 men left). Seems a bit excessive, I'll keep an eye out to see if it recurs.

- Diplomat/princess movement speed is wonderful.

- Spy/merchant speed seems excessive -- spies can now scope out 1-2 provinces in a single turn, and merchant "knockoffs" are now much more common (I use the ter, "knockoff" to describe the situation where a merchant is ordered to move onto a resource that is covered by fog of war at the beginning of the turn. If the merchant can reach the resource in the turn and it is occupied by an enemy merchant, the merchant "knocks off" his enemy and gets the resource without having to attempt an acquisition).

Anyway, having lots of fun -- great work!!! I'll keep you posted.

saurial

04-08-2007, 17:52

Bit of an update...

Its around turn 12 and I've taken Cordoba, Granada, Zarazoga, Bordeaux (which is really the outer limits of the territory I want for now -- I'll backfill in the middle by taking out Spain and then plan on taking North Africa and the Americas for my future expansion (leaving Europe largely alone).

I'm making a profit of about ~3000 florins a turn. Converted Pamplona into a large town, everything else is what is was to start. I've built up all the farm upgrades in each of my cities, which has helped out with income but my growth is still horrible -- I'm leaving everything on medium taxes to keep growth positive (h/vh taxes sends almost all my cities into the red).

I'm at war with the Moors and allied with every other faction except Russia (who I haven't found yet). Reputation is mixed, relations with most factions is amiable after alliance+trade+maps for cash.

Spain is _dead_, though they are unaware of it. They really ought to be attacking my very lightly held interior cities, but its before turn 30 and they aren't budging. They are now surrounded by my empire, and they have full stacks sitting in their sitting provinces, but they don't really have any way to move. Another 20 turns, they'll attack me, get excommunicated, and then I'll control Iberia.

Thanks again for the wonderful mod :).

S

Carl

04-08-2007, 18:03

Alright, I'll try to make some comments.

I was a little surprised when I saw it because they are the second level infantry after spearmen ( and they appear no better) and because their stats when so different to their mounted version...

WOW, hadn't realized they where so far up the tech tree. Good catch, thanks.

I am at 1204 and the world is an interesting place... We hold a large empire in northeast Europe stretching into the steps. The Russians hold the steps, the Truks hold the land to the east of the Black Sea, South of them and stretching into Asia Minor is the Mongol empire. The Byz hold their traditional lands plus much of what was Venetian lands. The Pope hold most of Northern Italy including Venice. The Danes hold their homelands plus all of what was the HRE. The Hungarians hold a few provinces to the west of the Black Sea. French lands are divided between France, Spain and the English. Spain also hold most of Iberia including the former Portuguese lands. The Moors hold all of North Africa and Baghdad. The Scottish hold all of Britain and Ireland. The Middle east is divided between us (the Polish), the French and the Mongols. Egypt holds it's traditional lands and Arabia...

Thanks for that, useful info. Denmark is honestly turning into something of a problem, as is the AI Poland ATM. Gonna have to look into them as they seem to rip HRE and Hungary and Russia to pieces between them and from that point onward's they are nearly unstoppable for the other AI factions.

I have been at constant war with the Hungarians (and have recently had the resources free to actually go on the offensive against them). I have been fights the Russians for a while too and have force them back with many battles to their starting lands and further east... I was vassals of the Byz for a long time, but for now I am a vassal of the Danes.

We hold Jerusalem and Acre in the Middle East and have been fighting the Egyptians for a long time to keep them. We assisted the French in taking Damascus and the Mongols hold Antioch (I am allied to both the French and Mongols). This has taken some pressure off me.

I plan to secure myself against the Hungarians and the Russians before seeking Independence again.

Hmm, interesting tactic, becoming a vassal. How tough have you found the Hungarian Forces to deal with then? And if they've been easy, how much of that is down to the towers on cities/castles?

I.e. is Hungary a Major threat against you when you get to Field battles?

I have also noticed that Bombard are frighteningly accurate. Where they always like that or have you altered them?

Yes, Flaming ammo has very high accuracy, same with exploding cannon shot. Bombards ARE quite low anti-infantry damage compared to Cannon/Culverin/Basilisk's though, so these are definitely the more anti-personnel pieces. Whilst Bombards remain the better anti-building artillery.

Sorry I haven't had a chance to post yet Carl -- been quite busy with work recently and just today got the chance to dig into PF a bit. Anyway, started a campaign as Portugal (short victory conditions) on VH/VH. A couple initial observations / questions.

Thats Okay, you've got involved and thats the main thing.

- The zero starting cash is interesting. My understand was that it (along with the large garrisons) was meant to slow blitzing, but in the case of Portugal (income starts in the red even with max taxes), it has almost the opposite effect. You have lots of troops and little money -- you have to throw them at something immediately. The rebel garrisons are certainly buffed however, though that may have two unintended side effects:

I noticed myself recently and have tweaked Portugal's income accordingly.

a) The rebel AI seems much more prone to sallying (because its generally better than my initial forces in the strength calculator). This actually tends to speed up initial territory acquisition, as the player can often beat the sallying rebels (player has a general to help with morale and has calvary for formed charges in the open plains in front of the walls). Consequently, I found myself getting towns on the turn I siege them, without having to contend with the towers or starve the AI out. On the first turn, for instance, I sieged Zaragoza and the AI immediately sallied, leading to a heroic victory for me (700 killed, 90 dead). Maybe giving each rebel town a rebel general would help?

Perhaps, fortunately the upcoming patch is supposed to make sallies by the AI much harder to kill. That may help and I may be able to do the odd thing to help. A general for each settlement might help, but it's a lot of extra work to add in as each general on the map needs a different name and you have a limited choice of possible names.

b) Because of those big rebel garrisons, the other factions are much more tempting targets for early warfare. While its not great for diplomacy, I'd rather hit Cordoba and fight 2 units than Zaragoza and fight 12. Is there any way to encourage the AI to garrison better?

True, but this is more a British Isles/Iberian issue. Most places the other factions are far enough away that the rebels are worth grabbing first instead. Also the patch is supposed to improve garrisoning behavior.

- Did you change the mechanism for unit experience? After my first battle my general and 2 units of Jinetes were at 3 bronze chevrons each with only light casualties (both Jinete units were around 35/40 men left). Seems a bit excessive, I'll keep an eye out to see if it recurs.

That bit isn't moddable, I suspect you just got lucky or something. But let me know if it happens again.

- Diplomat/princess movement speed is wonderful.

Thanks.

- Spy/merchant speed seems excessive -- spies can now scope out 1-2 provinces in a single turn, and merchant "knockoffs" are now much more common (I use the ter, "knockoff" to describe the situation where a merchant is ordered to move onto a resource that is covered by fog of war at the beginning of the turn. If the merchant can reach the resource in the turn and it is occupied by an enemy merchant, the merchant "knocks off" his enemy and gets the resource without having to attempt an acquisition).

The Merchant "knockoff" thing you mention is something new to me, wasn't aware that was possible. For spies it doesn't bother me overly as their main job is to open gates and check the composition of armies/settlement garrisons. Something they can only do once a turn anyway. Thus i'm more interested in them being able to rapidly reach their target than how much actual running around they do. But if someone else has something to say on the matter, please let me know, I may well have missed some important point.

Anyway, having lots of fun -- great work!!! I'll keep you posted.

Glad your enjoying it.

I've seen all 3 waves of Mongols and no CTD. But something from Bangaroos first post stands out at me all of a sudden.

Its not on the first wave as they arrived a few turns ago.

AT first i thought you meant that the First wave had come and gone and the second wave was their/nearly their. But this sounds more like it was a very short time since the first wave.

Thats the actual CTD error that the Hotfix I sent out fixes. Be aware that the Hotfix is NOT save game compatible, the campaign script is only looked up at the start of a campaign, so if it's faulty then as the CTD causing one was then the fault will continue to exist in the save game data no matter how much you change the script file.

So to me it sounds like you applied the fix and missed my comment about it not being save game compatible. No offence BTW.

saurial

04-08-2007, 18:19

Just to clarify on the "knockoffs", it can occur in vanilla as well (but is much more difficult). This is exactly what needs to happen.

1) There is a resource that you have previously uncovered but no longer have line of sight to (you can see it on the map but its grayed out).

2) You have a merchant that can reach that resource in a single turn from his current position, even though it is currently under fog of war.

3) You click for the merchant to move onto the resource directly. He walks over to the resource, and it is revealed (along with the fact that there is a merchant on it).

4) However, the merchant will still walk onto the resource and displace the hostile merchant one square away. This is the same behavior always seen with agents because they don't assert a zone of control (you see this when you walk your diplomats past other diplomats, for instance). It just has an unintended effect in this case because its easier to defend against an acquistion than make one.

So... as you can imagine, this situation is just much more common in PF because merchants can more easily outrun their LOS in a single tun.

Hope this helps clarify.

Thanks,
S

vonsch

04-08-2007, 18:21

For spies it doesn't bother me overly as their main job is to open gates and check the composition of armies/settlement garrisons. Something they can only do once a turn anyway. Thus i'm more interested in them being able to rapidly reach their target than how much actual running around they do. But if someone else has something to say on the matter, please let me know, I may well have missed some important point.

Um, first, I like the spy speed. ~;)

But, what you say isn't entirely true. The scouting function of spies, the revealing the contents of a stack, is not dependent on an action. If you move adjacent to a stack you will be able to see all the units and their stats. So you can do that as many times as you have mps. This includes garrisons. Try it.

But the active "spying" that uses an action you can only do once. That's really only useful for seeing the family members' details. When you enter a town, you get that info also... and the placement of the spy inside (2 for the price of one!)

But to "train up" a spy you have to do the active spying. That both increases the field of view for that spy, and the chance of success on active missions. The FOV increases the range at which you reveal all units in a stack to examination also, I believe. (I haven't tested that empirically, but from my general play experience it seems to work that way.)

So the extra speed makes them really good scouts, but only a bit better as spies. But, frankly, with the number limits on spies and the counterincentives to spamming the tavern/brothel/inn lines, I use mostly towers for scouting. Except when specifically attacking outside my borders some distance.

So I don't find it unbalancing. It's more of a plus on the convenience end for the player that offsets the anti-agent spam of limiting the number to the number of building levels built. Instead of spamming 5 spies myself for advance intel, I can work with just one. Saves on lost agents too. I tend to tie up a lot of spies trying to prevent open gates ~;). But maybe that's because I have been dealing with those Italian scoundrels most recently.

As I said, I like the spy movement. (also nice to be able to scout the Holy Land from far away without waiting literally decades... or Mongol hunt)

saurial

04-08-2007, 18:46

Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the disadvantage to spamming the brothel/inn line? I almost always end up doing it for the happiness bonuses in huge cities.

Carl

04-08-2007, 20:16

Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the disadvantage to spamming the brothel/inn line? I almost always end up doing it for the happiness bonuses in huge cities.

If you have a general in a settlement along with the Brothel line of buildings you have a chance of picking up a long list of various negative traits, the cumulative effects of which eventually cause said Governor to become so bad that the settlement makes less money, has a lower public order, and has a lower growth rate than if the Governor was not present.

In addition. Happiness causes population growth so Brothels do nothing to help Public Order in Huge Cities in the long run.

Bob the Insane

04-08-2007, 23:47

Hmm, interesting tactic, becoming a vassal. How tough have you found the Hungarian Forces to deal with then? And if they've been easy, how much of that is down to the towers on cities/castles?

I.e. is Hungary a Major threat against you when you get to Field battles?

.

It is not really a tactic I choose, it was a case of being at war with everyone around me. I had refused the offer from the Byz a few times but there came a point where I was being attacked by the HRE, Hungarians and Russians and the the Byz besieged Budapest with a large stack and then offered to make me a Vassel with their Princess I just thought, sure, I can use the peace on one border to knock out my other foes and then finally turn on the Byz. The fact that I was at war on all frnts was not just a problem because of all the constant fighting, but I was not trading with anyone and that was hugely impacting my revenue and thus ability to field forces. What was nice was vassalage with the Byz also got me peace with the HRE and Russians (I was alrady allied to the Danes). Which led to trading with them (execpt theRussians attacked me again shortly, which ended their alliance with the Byz. As the Hungarians and the Russians are both basically east of me I then moved to a one front war (forgetting about the middle east). That was basically the end of things for many years (while I made inroads against the Russians) until the Danes backstabbed me with the huge stack besieging Prague so i accepted their offer of vasselship figuring it would get me out from under with the Byz. So basically I am pretty secure to the west and south and all my enemies are to the east.

As for fighting the Hungarians.. They spam out knights, both foot and mounted alot. In field battles the Hnugarians are good on foot, their knights and Croat Axemen make short work of other infantry. But Polands strength is in Polish Nobles and the mounted corssbowmen. These cut knights to peices without taking hardly any casulaties. The Hungarians have made weak attempts at Budapest quite often and the Militia defenders and towers have always stopped them. The rate of fire from towers makes using ladders while the two towers at ether end of a wall section at operational a suicidal venture. I have found that even if a ram does make it to the gate the towers decimate the unit operating the ram. I did lose some ealry battles against them with footsoldiers, but nother will my missile cavarly. They are hobbled in that they now have only 4 provinces and they are all castles (and they have been like this for many turns which is why they have been more a nuisence than a threat and that made them lower proirity then the russians.). If it was not for the money script they would be utterly broke. However digging them out of those castles is going to be "fun"...

I think my next campaign will be as the Hungaries to get a taste for the difference...

Bongaroo

04-09-2007, 01:15

OHHHHHHHHH!!!! D'OH! Totally missed the non-save game compatability. Starting a new campaign now. I think I'm going with the Polish, they look to be in a tough starting spot.

Carl

04-09-2007, 01:23

OHHHHHHHHH!!!! D'OH! Totally missed the non-save game compatibility. Starting a new campaign now. I think I'm going with the Polish, they look to be in a tough starting spot.

:smash:, don't worry about it, the post in question got buried under loads of others very quickly, not your fault, I should have checked that first.

It is not really a tactic I choose, it was a case of being at war with everyone around me. I had refused the offer from the Byz a few times but there came a point where I was being attacked by the HRE, Hungarians and Russians and the the Byz besieged Budapest with a large stack and then offered to make me a Vassal with their Princess I just thought, sure, I can use the peace on one border to knock out my other foes and then finally turn on the Byz. The fact that I was at war on all fronts was not just a problem because of all the constant fighting, but I was not trading with anyone and that was hugely impacting my revenue and thus ability to field forces. What was nice was vassalage with the Byz also got me peace with the HRE and Russians (I was already allied to the Danes). Which led to trading with them (except the Russians attacked me again shortly, which ended their alliance with the Byz. As the Hungarians and the Russians are both basically east of me I then moved to a one front war (forgetting about the middle east). That was basically the end of things for many years (while I made inroads against the Russians) until the Danes back-stabbed me with the huge stack besieging Prague so i accepted their offer of vasselship figuring it would get me out from under with the Byz. So basically I am pretty secure to the west and south and all my enemies are to the east.

Ahh, I've just heard of some people deliberately doing, that was all, and thought maybe you where the same. know what you mean about trade BTW.

As for fighting the Hungarians.. They spam out knights, both foot and mounted a lot. In field battles the Hungarians are good on foot, their knights and Croat Axeman make short work of other infantry.

so if forced to fight them with infantry based forces you think they could give you problems?

I think my next campaign will be as the Hungary's to get a taste for the difference...

I'll look forward to it.

1.24 is coming along nicely. i fixed the Bug but I've spent the last couple of days putting together a 1.2 patch compatible version, (this is currently labeled V1.25), from the files from the unofficial version. However a few balance issues have turned up in 1.24, so it's delayed again, (I've been tweaking a number of building effects and it resulted in too much income, so i needed to cut that down and went a bit far the first time round). They're nearly fixed, so if no news shows tomorrow about the patch I'll probably release it then.

saurial

04-09-2007, 03:56

An update on the Portugal campaign...

Turn 50 or so...

The world is at peace, oddly enough. Not total peace, but I think the Byzantines are fighting Venice, and thats it. AI has expanded superbly, with Byz holding 9 provinces, HRE 8, Denmark 7, and Venice 6. But it looks like the "trusted alliances" are freezing things up -- lots of factions have Immaculate reputations and there are several AI-AI alliances (HRE, Venice, and Milan are in an alliance love triangle). They are also all allied with me. If thats not it, I'm not sure what else explains it.

Spain grabbed Valencia before I could -- I was impressed. They're bisecting Portugal (3 territories above, 4 below). However, they don't have any land routes to other factions and don't seem to think of using ships... they just have a few full stacks sitting in their territories. Can they be encouraged to try out naval warfare?

Growth may need a little upward tweak -- my major focus on the moment is crusading generals against Moorish cities in order to raise chivalry and then redeploying them to castles/cities for governing (done it twice now with 4 generals total). Even with the level 3 farm upgrades + grain exchange, I get no more than 2% growth from my cities (on normal taxes). Needless to say, taxes are normal across the empire.

Merchant earnings may need to get turned down -- even with just iron in Iberia, a merchant more than pays for itself in 3 turns (getting 200-250 from iron). With the increased speed, Timbuktu is also a little too accessible, and the thousands in income there are as large as my entire tax base.

Still having fun -- its nice not to be the top dog. Maybe I'll attack someone and see if that shakes everyone up a bit.

Thanks,
S

Carl

04-09-2007, 23:14

Heads up guys, i'm uploading V1.24 to FileFront now.

Carl

04-10-2007, 00:16

Alright, the Links are out for V1.24 now.

The main comments are that i need an opinion on the economic situation ATM. As noted earlier I've tweaked the various building to pieces and the amount of money from individual sources a lot too. However the economic balance may easily be off. It seems to be OK ATM to me, but I need a second opinion.

I also need opinions on growth and I've moved a few units around in tech trees and played with stats a Little in a couple of places.

I've tweaked the AI again too, but the economic changes seem to have undone some of the good work for some reason, not sure why.

I've also added numerous extra merchant recourses and slightly reduced merchant income.

Recruitment slots have also been tweaked, in particular he highest levels of Barracks, (city AND Castle), Stables, and Archery Ranges, as well as some guilds give bonus recruitment slots. In addition I've tweaked Italian Spear Militia and put cities and above back to three recruitment slots. It was the ISM that made me drop them to 2 in the first place, with ISM being identical nearly to Armored Sergent's it was practically pointless building Armored Sergent's for the Italian factions, as a result the original change to recruitment slots was meant to make ISM less attractive due to being harder to replace. Now that they are slightly weaker though this no longer applies and I can safely put the slots back in.

Don't worry ISM are still VERY good Militia units, they just aren't as good as they used to be.

Other things have doubtless been tweaked that I've forgotten or that aren't o the list.

Anyway i need opinions and thoughts as usual.

Any chance of convincing you to try Byzantine for me vonsch? Get your opinion on them, and see how they feel to you compared to me?

Shahed

04-10-2007, 00:19

Are you still looking for testers ?

Carl

04-10-2007, 00:32

Yeah, as many as possible. If you want to volunteer~:).....

saurial

04-10-2007, 03:01

Hey Carl,

Started a new campaign as Portugal on 1.24. A small bug for you: Lisbon can now build mines (previously not possible) which provides an income of 0 florins per turn. Other than that, growth in Iberia still feels very slow, but I'll play some more first before really commenting.

Thanks,
S

vonsch

04-10-2007, 03:12

I hate purple! ~;)

I have no idea how to do Byz as usual. So I'll flounder about. Soon.

Got the file.

Hmm, maybe I'll take the Holy Land first. That might be interesting. But I better check those garrisons first. Otherwise I can swing north and take out the western part of the Turks to give me some lebensraum... like all Anatolia! I can let the Catholics have at each other a while. The east is richer anyway.

Starting with a large city is mighty nice.

I know what you're aiming for with the siege buildings everywhere, but you DO realize what we players will do with it, right? (goes back to selling off most of the siege buildings for some turn 1 cash)

Thessalonika can build mines for +0 income too. And Nicosia. Iconium mines produce zero too. I think we have a wee problem here.

Turks building Sipahis already, nasty buggers. Have to deal with them! I really really hate horse archers, have I mentioned that? Dang things are better than my ByzzyCav!

You didn't tell us the ballistas don't work as siege gear anymore. That's a pretty big change.

ByzCav seem to have REALLY flimsy morale. Can't fight them like Turks or Russians at all.

Heretics are still grossly powerful. A 1 skill heretic took Cyprus from 2-3 heresy to 18 in a turn.

Rozanov

04-10-2007, 08:52

Downloading v1.24 now.

(will probably take several hours at the speed my modem / connection run at.)

Does it install over previous problemfixers or should we do a complete clean re-install in case there was left-overs from previous installations?

Been playing a few hours of Milan and Egypt on vanilla just to get a feel for them. so may try one of those when DL has completed.

Carl

04-10-2007, 10:04

No need for a complete re-install. As long as you select the overwrite existing files option when it shows up you'll be fine.

Give me a bit on the other comments as i'm going to be going out soon.

Thessalonika can build mines for +0 income too. And Nicosia. Iconium mines produce zero too. I think we have a wee problem here.

I added several resources to the list of those required to build mines. However i was unable to find a way to actually make the resource in question mineable. I left it in however as the 1.2 Patch DOES include a way to set resources to minable/not minable.

You didn't tell us the ballistas don't work as siege gear anymore. That's a pretty big change.

Sorry, my fault their. it was a change that should have been in from day one and it was comments by you about using them in sieges that clued me to my modification not having Taken. It doesn't really make sense that Ballista can bring down most types of wall when you think about it. The Projectiles just aren't powerful enough. Similar changes have taken place with ribualts and Rockets.

Turks building Sipahis already, nasty buggers. Have to deal with them! I really really hate horse archers, have I mentioned that? Dang things are better than my ByzzyCav!

:smash:, now do you see why I went on about Sipahis being so good before~;p?

Your right though, they have a higher missile defense, better missile and melee abilities and better morale than your Byzantine Cav.

ByzCav seem to have REALLY flimsy morale. Can't fight them like Turks or Russians at all.

Thats weird as Byzantine Cav are effectively Turkomans with higher Discipline, (less likely to break when they suffer a Morale shock), better training, (makes the better in melee), and they have the same basic defense before any Armour upgrades as Turkomans do after all their upgrades.

Otherwise Byzantine Cav and Turkomans are Identical. They even have the same morale values.

What sort of armies are you normally facing then ATM? It could be that the forces your facing are the cause of the issue, not the Byzantine Cav.

Also Bear in mind that Byzantine, (IMHO), is a mixed Infantry/Heavy Cav/HA force, and needs to use all 3 in combination for the best results. This didn't work too well in vanilla as the capabilities of Byzantine FA and S & S units was overshadowed by a lack of a decent spear unit, (making all that infantry very vulnerable to Cav), and by the fact that Vardariotai are so insanely powerful.

I hope to alter Vardariotai stats eventually but right now I've limited them to a very small number available only from the top level stables. The have the missile power per shot of Jinetes, the range, speed, and ammunition capacity of Byzantine Cav, and the defense and melee abilities of Sipahi Lancers. As more than one person put it, in vanilla the basic Byzantine strategy is: Spam Vardariotai = Win.

However with the changes made to Byzantine Spear and the stats and availability of Byzantine Infantry you now have access to good Spears and (even at an early stage), a weak, if Okay, S & S unit. Thus I'd hope the best Byzantine strategy would be a combined arms one. Utilizing all aspect of the unit roster in conjunction so as to give a mixed army that is extremely powerful and versatile.

Of course, other strategies, should be possible, and are, i'm just pointing out that mixed strategies will probably have more success as Byzantines due to the fact that it's taking advantage of a good overall unit roster that does not, (compared to the surrounding factions), excel in any one area.

Starting with a large city is mighty nice.

:yes: especially since it lets you build Vargarian Guard from day one, although you need a Huge City to get them in large quantities.

I know what you're aiming for with the siege buildings everywhere, but you DO realize what we players will do with it, right? (goes back to selling off most of the siege buildings for some turn 1 cash)

I'll look into doing something about this, either by making the siege stuff un-demolish-able, or by scripting the building of Siege buildings in, (if thats possible). I honestly never thought of this s in the case of the smaller factions you don't have enough territories to get away with this really. At least not if you want to be able to build siege gear.

Heretics are still grossly powerful. A 1 skill heretic took Cyprus from 2-3 heresy to 18 in a turn.

I did tone them down, take it it's not enough? Do bear in mind that they are much slower though than before now and your priests should have no issues catching them.

Other than that, growth in Iberia still feels very slow, but I'll play some more first before really commenting.

Build stuff, with the improved trade income and overall farm effects they make growth increase much faster now.

Ohh, and make getting Valencia a Priority one. It's a decent sized city now and has a Knights of Santiago minor Chapter house. With Unhorsed Knights, (nearly identical to Conquistadors, but with better Armour but lower defense skill), now recruitable, (Representing Dismounted Order Knights), at all Order Knight Chapter Houses. They are both a serious threat to you if the Spanish gets them, and a powerful resource on your side if you can get them. Of course it DOES have a decent garrission with a good comander so don't rush headlong into it.

Bongaroo

04-10-2007, 15:20

Is v1.24 past save-game compatable? Just wondering as my Polish H/H game is really a lot of fun right now but it took a while to build up and would be a little boring to restart. Any other factions/units you'd like to be playtested that hasn't been getting much attention?

Carl

04-10-2007, 15:24

Parts of it are save game compatible, but the Descr_Strat Changes and changes to the Traits and Ancillaries are not. Neither are the Settlement mechanics or a couple of other file changes.

It's up to you weather to restart or not.

Several factions seem to have got very Little attention IMHO, but the two that jump out are HRE and Sicily.

Rozanov

04-10-2007, 15:29

Oh dear

looks like it'll be a while before i can join in the fun on v1.24

I use free download manager but can only grab 2 hours worth of stuff before my ISP times me out.

Got nearly half before i ran out of time. Went back to resume and was then told server does not support resume.

Great.

Will have to ask someone to get it for me.

vonsch

04-10-2007, 15:51

Thats weird as Byzantine Cav are effectively Turkomans with higher Discipline, (less likely to break when they suffer a Morale shock), better training, (makes the better in melee), and they have the same basic defense before any Armour upgrades as Turkomans do after all their upgrades.

Otherwise Byzantine Cav and Turkomans are Identical. They even have the same morale values.

What sort of armies are you normally facing then ATM? It could be that the forces your facing are the cause of the issue, not the Byzantine Cav.

Also Bear in mind that Byzantine, (IMHO), is a mixed Infantry/Heavy Cav/HA force, and needs to use all 3 in combination for the best results. This didn't work too well in vanilla as the capabilities of Byzantine FA and S & S units was overshadowed by a lack of a decent spear unit, (making all that infantry very vulnerable to Cav), and by the fact that Vardariotai are so insanely powerful.

I hope to alter Vardariotai stats eventually but right now I've limited them to a very small number available only from the top level stables. The have the missile power per shot of Jinetes, the range, speed, and ammunition capacity of Byzantine Cav, and the defense and melee abilities of Sipahi Lancers. As more than one person put it, in vanilla the basic Byzantine strategy is: Spam Vardariotai = Win.

However with the changes made to Byzantine Spear and the stats and availability of Byzantine Infantry you now have access to good Spears and (even at an early stage), a weak, if Okay, S & S unit. Thus I'd hope the best Byzantine strategy would be a combined arms one. Utilizing all aspect of the unit roster in conjunction so as to give a mixed army that is extremely powerful and versatile.

Of course, other strategies, should be possible, and are, i'm just pointing out that mixed strategies will probably have more success as Byzantines due to the fact that it's taking advantage of a good overall unit roster that does not, (compared to the surrounding factions), excel in any one area.

I'm not far enough along to be composing armies yet. This was a pickup bandit-killer group I threw at a stakc of 2 archer militia and one byz spears (sheesh, I can't make them yet and the bandits have them!) Two of the three routed (though only one didn't rally) when I did my usual "fake charge the archers" routine. The archers were shooting fire, but still. Never seen that with Turks. But it's possible it's my EB experience skewing things here. I had them with no general (which I do more with EB since they don't rebel so easily). It's possible I just haven't done that with general-less Turks to see if the same thing happens.

Oh, the BC also do not get any stamina (like the Sipahi) so they are not equal to Turcoman. I have to start taking battles slower and walk them to the fight, not run them. That too probably played in. The rebs were up a slope a bit, so the horses were probably a bit tired when they got there. It was a shocker. Been playing Saka with EB, a pure nomad steppe culture. Their HA are very nice, very fast and high stamina. Spoiled ~;).

I took Iconium and went to bed. That was a full stack of mostly militia with four familiy members, 2 BC and 2-3 BI. I probably could have taken Antioch with it with autosiege, but decided to just crunch the wooden walls at Iconium and try to stop the Turks from building lots of Sipahis on my doorstep. Those are too much of a pain to fight later. Antioch would have been a little iffy anyway, since I still had so much militia in my stack.

Carl

04-10-2007, 16:25

I'm not far enough along to be composing armies yet. This was a pickup bandit-killer group I threw at a stack of 2 archer militia and one byz spears (sheesh, I can't make them yet and the bandits have them!) Two of the three routed (though only one didn't rally) when I did my usual "fake charge the archers" routine. The archers were shooting fire, but still. Never seen that with Turks. But it's possible it's my EB experience skewing things here. I had them with no general (which I do more with EB since they don't rebel so easily). It's possible I just haven't done that with general-less Turks to see if the same thing happens.

Sounds like a combination of factors to me.

First you didn't have a general which leaves you working with just the basic Morale of 3.

Second you where being hit with fire arrows which have noticeable Morale effect, (DUH!).

Third I suspect you where in proximity to the Byzantine Spears, they like all spears inflict a -2 morale penalty.

The Spears inflict a morale penalty on mounted units, (-2), so that would cut the Byzantine Cav from 3 to 1 morale and at this point the Morale hits from the Fire Arrows/Tiredness/Outnumbered/Excessive Losses, (if appropriate), would have kicked in and even a single morale hit would have broken them.

With even a 1 Command General you would have had +1 Morale and I doubt you'd have suffered as badly. With a 2 command general you'd have been perfectly fine i expect.

Oh, the BC also do not get any stamina (like the Sipahi) so they are not equal to Turcoman. I have to start taking battles slower and walk them to the fight, not run them. That too probably played in. The rebs were up a slope a bit, so the horses were probably a bit tired when they got there.

Hadn't noticed this bit. Woops.

p.s. Sipahi's do have stamina now remember~;p.

I took Iconium and went to bed. That was a full stack of mostly militia with four family members, 2 BC and 2-3 BI. I probably could have taken Antioch with it with autosiege, but decided to just crunch the wooden walls at Iconium and try to stop the Turks from building lots of Sipahis on my doorstep. Those are too much of a pain to fight later. Antioch would have been a little iffy anyway, since I still had so much militia in my stack.

Not a bad tactic, but the Sipahis are coming from the castles so unless you intend to wipe the turks out your still going to have issues with them. And even then the Egyptians could well spoil your game with Mamluk's. Or was wiping out the turks what you meant?

What do you make of the Byzantine Infantry then? Any good, too weak...too strong?
Also, what do you make of the Economic situation ATM, (bearing in mind how rich Byzantium normally is anyway).

Looking forward to the rest of the campaign report~:).

Will have to ask someone to get it for me.

Sorry about that.

Many thanks for all the testing and hard work everyone, it is much appreciated.

vonsch

04-10-2007, 16:36

Ah, I didn't realize proximity caused the morale effect with spears/cav. I thought you had to be attacking them (which I was not... yet). So that was probably the last nail in the rout-coffin. Was that penalty the same when I was playing Turks two revs back?

I'm gonna just take Caesarea for now, I think... err, and Treb, have an invasion heading there. I'll let the Turks have the east (nice of me!) They get to deal with the Mongols first ~;) I figure Caesarea is their most developed castle, so the biggest threat. Once I have my core in place, Sipahis are much less of an issue. Horses can't fight on walls and don't do so well in streets either. And unless Egypt has changed, they don't build that many Mumlaks and it takes a while to get them. And they well be on a reservation by then. Like Jedda. (Why do you think I want to dominate the sea? Gonna deliver a stack or two to their doorstep by ship!)

Aside from allying with all the Catholics, gonna see how long I can just ignore them. I expect Venice will pick the first fight. They won't like me holding islands that they want. But maybe they will get tangled up with Hungary over Zagreb or something first.

But I'm only about turn 10. And haven't actually fought a serious battle where BI played a significant role. Have to adjust back to combined arms from pure cav thinking.

You overcompensate on castle growth rates? Getting 3.5 at Corinth with no governor. That seems high to me. Cities not near that. Castles CAN grow slower since they don't need as much population to top out. Less than half what cities do. They're forced to normal taxes too, so you can set it to what you want from a balance standpoint easily. The only wildcard will be the governor.

Well, that was the AI being silly. I moved my full stack next to the army outside Caesarea (lots of Sipahi) since I couldn't get around it (river and ridge) planning to provoke it, or attack it next turn. So what does AI do? Moves it off east towards those cities, leaving FL and 2 units inside the castle. Easy siege. (And not a thing you can do about that stupid behavior, I fear!) Spy got the gates ~;) Heh, now those Turk units up and went bandit on them too. Darn. I preferred them as Turks! They might attack the walls and save me some trouble. Eek, wrong, faction destroyed! Um... Are they short on family members? I only killed two that I know of. Oh, they have a VERY old Sultan at the start? Maybe he died and I killed off his replacement and the last of the others? Wasn't trying to do that.

Oh well. Bandits can also serve as Mongol fodder!

Carl

04-10-2007, 16:43

Ah, I didn't realize proximity caused the morale effect with spears/Cav. I thought you had to be attacking them (which I was not... yet). So that was probably the last nail in the rout-coffin. Was that penalty the same when I was playing Turks two revs back?

I presume it's area of affect as it's the same effect as what is used for Camels vs. Horses, and yeah it was the same when you played Turks. it's been in since the first release.

I'm gonna just take Caesarea for now, I think... err, and Treb, have an invasion heading there. I'll let the Turks have the east (nice of me!) They get to deal with the Mongols first I figure Caesarea is their most developed castle, so the biggest threat. Once I have my core in place, Sipahis are much less of an issue. Horses can't fight on walls and don't do so well in streets either. And unless Egypt has changed, they don't build that many Mamluk's and it takes a while to get them. And they well be on a reservation by then. Like Jedda. (Why do you think I want to dominate the sea? Gonna deliver a stack or two to their doorstep by ship!)

:laugh4:, not a bad idea. I've altered the base stables levels that are available so Egypt can now build Mamluk's from Gaza from turn 1 though so it could be you'll face a few.

Aside from allying with all the Catholics, gonna see how long I can just ignore them. I expect Venice will pick the first fight. They won't like me holding islands that they want. But maybe they will get tangled up with Hungary over Zagreb or something first.

That area of the world is an AI mess ATM, at least one of the factions out of Hungary, Venice, HRE, and Byzantine freezes up when under AI control. It's going to get interesting though I bet.

Hope this campaign keeps your interest till the Mongols arrive as I want to see what you make of them now LOL.

But I'm only about turn 10. And haven't actually fought a serious battle where BI played a significant role. Have to adjust back to combined arms from pure cav thinking.

Right, fair enough.

vonsch

04-10-2007, 17:14

(slipped an update into the last post after you replied)

Building lots of BI at Corinth to use against rebel cities. They look really cost-effective for sieges. I might even try storming stone walls myself (rather than autosiege). (Ew!)

But I should start putting up towers and clearing out some bandits too. Starting to see some devastation. Byz sure has a lot of money ~;)

France has Bruges already at turn 15. That's new.

Turn 20 World Sitrep:

https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2248/0000vg1.jpg

Btw, Rhodes and Caffa will be Byz on turn 21.

Hmm, is that Sicily on Sardinia? Hard to tell from that little map.

Carl

04-10-2007, 17:57

France has Bruges already at turn 15. That's new.

Not exactly, they start with it, (cuts the rebel strength bordering both them AND england that way which should help both).

The patch might fix the stupid behavior you noticed s it makes the AI do it's defense allocation FIRST. What will have happened is that the AI will have assigned that stack to an attacking force before getting to the defense decisions.

Or at leas thats my guess anyway.

They look really cost-effective for sieges. I might even try storming stone walls myself (rather than autosiege). (Ew!)

Should be intresting LOL:laugh4:.

vonsch

04-10-2007, 18:29

Not exactly, they start with it, (cuts the rebel strength bordering both them AND england that way which should help both).

Um, it's new this patch. Last patch I (as France) had to besiege it.

Carl

04-10-2007, 19:03

Um, it's new this patch. Last patch I (as France) had to besiege it.

Yeah, i added it in this time round along with Arguin and Timbuktu for the Moors and Calgari for Sicily, (doesn't seem to have done any good though:wall:) Also Magdeburg for HRE.

The none movers on your map are:

Sicily, France, Moors, Spain, Portugal, Milan, and Venice.

Thats actually a bit slow as normally 3 out of Milan, Venice, Moors, Spain, and France get moving. Portugal is a bit hit and miss and Sicily refuses to move for love nor money, (literally sometimes LOL).

vonsch

04-10-2007, 19:22

Okay, Byz isn't feeling too rich. I can't keep up with the building by a long shot. Having to be selective. I am running much larger armies than I usually do since it's a conquest rich environment. I have about three full stacks, but broken into about 6 at the moment, hunting bandits and getting replacements for a push towards the Holy Land cities now.

I have Caffa and most of Anatolia, and Rhodes. Adana is still rebel. Think I'll hit Antioch first though. Makes more sense to have its economy online first. Left Treb as a castle, thinking of the Mongols. I might convert it if I push on to Tbilisi. Rhodes and Smyrna being converted. Corinth and Caesarea are my production, at least for a while. Corinth is a nice centralish port for coastal Med work. Caesarea central to Anatolia. I'll probably leave one coastal Holy Land castle too.

Venice not doing much at Durazzo so far. Sofia still rebel. Don't want to take those as I know it will trigger war with the Catholics fairly fast. Rather focus east and south first.

Okay, that time ByzCav performed better. Had a general along. And walked them a lot further before starting the normal HA shuffle-run stuff. But I think with Byz they will not be a primary but a support unit. Good flankers and chasers. With the bonus of lashing the enemy with arrow fire while doing it.

Bongaroo

04-10-2007, 19:33

I had started a danish campaign and was having a blast till a minute ago. I finally got my economy up and running and grabbed Stettin and Hamburg. I sent my Prince on the crusade for Jerusalem. He just "got caught up in an act of God". He wasn't on a ship so he didn't get sunk, his army is sitting there next to Constantinople. Did he get assassinated? I'm going to start a Sicilian Campaign because I'm too pissed off to keep playing the danes and HRE is too big to start for my tastes.

Carl

04-10-2007, 19:54

I sent my Prince on the crusade for Jerusalem. He just "got caught up in an act of God".

Either some form of natural Disaster, or possibly an assassination, although typically it says natural causes in that case.

Okay, that time ByzCav performed better. Had a general along. And walked them a lot further before starting the normal HA shuffle-run stuff. But I think with Byz they will not be a primary but a support unit. Good flankers and chasers. With the bonus of lashing the enemy with arrow fire while doing it.

Thanks for the opinion. Did you get to use Byzantine Infantry then this time? Or you still working on it.

Okay, Byz isn't feeling too rich. I can't keep up with the building by a long shot. Having to be selective. I am running much larger armies than I usually do since it's a conquest rich environment. I have about three full stacks, but broken into about 6 at the moment, hunting bandits and getting replacements for a push towards the Holy Land cities now.

I have Caffa and most of Anatolia, and Rhodes. Adana is still rebel. Think I'll hit Antioch first though. Makes more sense to have its economy online first. Left Treb as a castle, thinking of the Mongols. I might convert it if I push on to Tbilisi. Rhodes and Smyrna being converted. Corinth and Caesarea are my production, at least for a while. Corinth is a nice centralish port for coastal Med work. Caesarea central to Anatolia. I'll probably leave one coastal Holy Land castle too.

I'd say convert Damascus as it's pretty much the center of the holy land and doesn't cost anything much in trade like Acre would.

Venice not doing much at Durazzo so far. Sofia still rebel. Don't want to take those as I know it will trigger war with the Catholics fairly fast. Rather focus east and south first.

Damm, I thought I had them fixed too:gah:.

vonsch

04-10-2007, 20:23

I'm guessing Venice has bad timing. They softened it up and Hungary came along and swept up the scraps. That would explain why Sophia is still neutral when Hungary seems to get that one first. Or maybe Byz softens THAT up for Hungary normally. ~;)

No BI battles yet, just normal autoresolve stuff. Cav is much better for hunting down bandits that like hiding in the boonies. And HA are best.

Though the ideal is knocking them across the border so they are someone else's problem ~;)

There's something up with Trebizond. It's a castle with 6375 pop and I get no option to upgrade it. It's a Middle Eastern style castle culturally on the town buildings list, but on the strategic map it's a Byz Wooden Castle. It's what was there when I captured it. I repaired it, no more.

At turn 29, on the other hand, I can already turn Caesarea into a Citadel. That seems a bit early.

Turn 30 World Sitrep:

https://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2387/0002ol6.jpg

I'm seeing a lot of military engineers again. It may be due to all the seige factories. Can we lower the odds on getting those by about 75%?

Wow, turn 38, HRE makes Poland a vassal.

Does the discipline make kataphractoi better than latinkon? They get 2 less charge bonus but one more defense. Not a lot of differentiation, but not a lot of cost difference.

Turn 40 World Sitrep:

https://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5763/0004oj3.jpg

Portugal and Milan woke up. Spain and France are snoring so loud I can hear them in Damascus. This time the jihad was on Jerusalem, so I'm waiting for the Egyptians to give up. Meanwhile, backfilling the interior regions back to Adana. The probably hit Edessa. Not sure about more. Am taking Tbilisi and Yerevan though. They have small garrisons. Baghdad and that other one probably do also though. I suspect Spain and the Moor are breaking like waves on Valencia. But then Portugal is at war with the Moors too.

And I'm building my first real army, rather than a mob for throwing at walls. The mobs are pure BI now though. Cheap, effective. I aim to try my army on the Mongols if no one else begs the privilege of being test dummy (Hungary? Venice? Anyone?)

Byz feels, well, easy. Very. Compared to the Turks, or even the Egyptians. Byz doesn't have the huge distance to get started that Egypt does. Turkey too, though to a lesser degree. And the sea works more for Byz.

The bandit spawn rate feels about right for my tastes now. They infrequent, but around enough to be midly annoying... and good practice for young generals.

I think the growth rate for castles is considerably too high now though. Cities seems not too bad.

Trebizond is definitely broken. I converted it to a city, can't expand in as a city either. That's gonna mess up this game since it's pretty indefensible as a level 2 town or a wooden castle. Is it something that a fix will work with a save? Or will it need a complete restart?

Turn 50 World Sitrep:

https://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3478/0005rz9.jpg

Bongaroo

04-11-2007, 06:15

A bit into the campaign, H/H

https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/speedy420/sicily1.jpg

Just took Jerusalem on the first try with the crusade. Was a Heroic Victory and pretty fun to play I might add.

https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/speedy420/sicily2.jpg

https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/speedy420/sicily3.jpg

Is Palmero suppoused to have 2 seige works allowing it to have 2 of each siege weapon in the recruitment slots? Pretty cool as it helped a lot.

Bob the Insane

04-11-2007, 12:44

Well I started as Hungary this time, no fancy pictures though... :laugh4:

It has been pretty straight forward so far and I have not reached the magic 30 turns... I am trying to be the good guys this time releasing prisoners, paying ransom (a couple of badly judged auto resolves vs. the rebels) and occupying settlements. I have alliances with most Christian factions and Russia, and trade agreements with everyone one else. I have made an effort to improve my relations with Venice, HRE and Poland to Good or better. I am going for trusted alliances with these guys to see what effect it has but I suspect that may not fly with Venice as the have parked a full sack of troops in a fort just outside my terrirtory being looking directly at Zagrab and I bet they are just waiting for turn 31...

I have taken Iasi, Sofia, Zagrab and Bucharest, I have been growning my settlements and building watch towers to keep an eye on things. I think Durzzo (spelling?) is still rebel but everywhere else I am hemmed in by HRE, Venice, Byz and Poland (even to my east)...

So far my staples of battle have been Militia Spearmen, Archers (peasant and those two Bosinian Archer units), merc Slavs, merc Bulgarian Brigands and my generals for cavalry. While HA are available and I have made good use of the 4 units of Hungarians nobles the council gave me, I have not felt the need to build more at this point. A least not of the grunt work of sieges. Plus getting my kingdom started and ready to go for the 31st turn has been pretty expensive.

Carl

04-11-2007, 14:04

Trebizond is definitely broken. I converted it to a city, can't expand in as a city either. That's gonna mess up this game since it's pretty indefensible as a level 2 town or a wooden castle. Is it something that a fix will work with a save? Or will it need a complete restart?

here's the offending piece of code:

settlement castle
{
level town
region Trebizond_Province

year_founded 0
population 3100
plan_set default_set
faction_creator byzantium
building
{
type core_castle_building castle
}
building
{
type castle_barracks garrison_quarters
}
building
{
type equestrian knights_stables
}
building
{
type missiles bowyer
}
building
{
type hinterland_castle_roads c_roads
}
building
{
type castle_siege c_catapult_range
}
}

The bolded piece of code should have read "large_town". In effect the settlement size does not match the size of the population and, (more importantly), the level of walls present. It's too small.

I'm afraid it won't be save game compatible, but if you guys want to keep going that's fine.

Is Palmero supposed to have 2 siege works allowing it to have 2 of each siege weapon in the recruitment slots? Pretty cool as it helped a lot.

It's an error, another one in the Descr_Strat file i'm afraid.

I have made an effort to improve my relations with Venice, HRE and Poland to Good or better.

It's Very Good for Trusted alliances BTW.

So far my staples of battle have been Militia Spearmen, Archers (peasant and those two Bosnian Archer units), merc Slavs, merc Bulgarian Brigands and my generals for cavalry. While HA are available and I have made good use of the 4 units of Hungarians nobles the council gave me, I have not felt the need to build more at this point. A least not of the grunt work of sieges. Plus getting my kingdom started and ready to go for the 31st turn has been pretty expensive.

Thanks for that, looking forward to the post turn 30 reports too. Should get lively. The Stack sitting on your border in a fort is actually a defensive stack BTW. It's trying to make sure you don't think of invading THEM.

Byz feels, well, easy. Very. Compared to the Turks, or even the Egyptians. Byz doesn't have the huge distance to get started that Egypt does. Turkey too, though to a lesser degree. And the sea works more for Byz.

I know what you mean, for me the previous phenomenon of swimming in money only helped exacerbate the issue. Any ideas what we could do to make it tougher on the player without borking up the AI?

Portugal and Milan woke up. Spain and France are snoring so loud I can hear them in Damascus. This time the jihad was on Jerusalem, so I'm waiting for the Egyptians to give up. Meanwhile, backfilling the interior regions back to Adana. The probably hit Edessa. Not sure about more. Am taking Tbilisi and Yerevan though. They have small garrisons. Baghdad and that other one probably do also though.

Strange as Milan is one of the few factions that almost never stalls, and Portugal if it's going to wake up normally does it before then.

I suspect Spain and the Moor are breaking like waves on Valencia. But then Portugal is at war with the Moors too.

Actually Spain normally goes after Zaragoza, usually gets it on the second attempt.

As for the Moors, it's probably being at war with Portugal thats doing it, they'll be putting a LOT of forces into defending their borders with obvious results.

I think the growth rate for castles is considerably too high now though. Cities seems not too bad.

I'll look into it, the problem is that previously their where a number of castles, (Gaza being the first one I noticed, but also a number of the ones around Russian/Poland/Hungary/moors), that either only grew at 0.5%, or which would not grow at all, unless a Governor was used, that was an issue for AI and player alike.

That means I've got to be careful not to lower it too much.

I'm seeing a lot of military engineers again. It may be due to all the siege factories. Can we lower the odds on getting those by about 75%?

I'll look into it.

Does the discipline make Kataphraktoi better than Latinkon? They get 2 less charge bonus but one more defense. Not a lot of differentiation, but not a lot of cost difference.

The Kataphraktoi also have AP on their secondary attacks.

Latinkon are MUCH better chargers, but the Kataphraktoi are better in general melee. SO the Kataphraktoi are best used against enemy Cav whilst the Latinkon are better used for attacking infantry.

I'll have a fixed Descr_Strat file out in about 30 mins or so.