300 Seen it!

[Tyfus]

So now that it's out and I've seen it, I can ask for people's opinions on the movie. I went to the midnight showing and I enjoyed it immensly. It's completely stylistic, and historically incorrect as we all knew it would be, but it was ridiculously badass anyway! I won't give anything away incase you haven't seen it yet and don't want to know but I give it a really good two thumbs up for getting you psyched about Greeks and Sparta in general and making me want to start a whole new KH game so I can kick some moth@6-Fu@&!%# ass with them.

Post your opinions about the movie, I thought starting a new thread would be good as the other recent one is already really long.~:cheers:

[Brightblade]

Sigh. My computer better get out of the shop soon.. my KH campaign of doom awaits.. But wait, TA said there may be Greek reforms too in the future... arggggg the suspense kills me.

[EoE]

It has not premiered in Denmark yet, but the industry people I know who've been to previews are totally psyched about it. For me this could very well be THE movie of 2007.

rgds/EoE

[PseRamesses]

So now that it's out and I've seen it, I can ask for people's opinions on the movie. I went to the midnight showing and I enjoyed it immensly. It's completely stylistic, and historically incorrect as we all knew it would be, but it was ridiculously badass anyway! I won't give anything away incase you haven't seen it yet and don't want to know but I give it a really good two thumbs up for getting you psyched about Greeks and Sparta in general and making me want to start a whole new KH game so I can kick some moth@6-Fu@&!%# ass with them.

Post your opinions about the movie, I thought starting a new thread would be good as the other recent one is already really long.~:cheers:
Any links Tyfus?

[Kushan]

I havent seen it yet. Hoping to maybe see it tomorrow or tuesday.

Kushan

[Tretii]

Didn't see it and have no desire to see it either.

[keravnos]

Λ

Do yourself a favour. Go see it and judge for yourselves. I have declared that I loved it before seeing it. What I saw was the illustrated book, the comic "300" if you will, brought to life, and now, I am a believer.

Words aren't enough to convey the power of moving picture, nor some hyperboles and excesses should allow anyone of all of those who enjoy the ancient world to not see this movie. It hasn't got grand cities, its bloody, gory, moody, dealing with ugly monsters, the worse of which is the one whose name means "nightmare" in Greek, Ephialtes.

If you are going to blame and discard "300" as a film, let noone of you ever watch Olivier's Henry V where he stood on a dreamy castle saying "we few we happy few". It is that simple. Millers' clear cut images translated into a clear cut film. I had originally thought that it was a ploy to get more people interested in the military, now I think..."Where do I sign?"

As the saying goes history became story, story became legend, legend became comic and comic has now turned into one of the greatest films this year. Blame Sparta for all its forthcommings, which it had, portray it as a slaveowning state which made Pre civil war plantation look like Disneyland, which it did, but you cannot deny its glory.

To all naysayers, I will only ask this, what do you think in our lives will stand the test of time for people who love history like some of us to remember it 2500 years later? If you have an answer don't go see the 300.

[Brightblade]

Indeed.. one of my favourite lines from Troy... 'They'll be speaking about this war for a thousand years... your name shall last through the ages..'

Inspiring ideals, really... 'Let it be remembered, that here, the few stood against the many'. I won't forget.

[Constantine the Great]

I haven't seen it yet, but I want to. I just wish they'd made it more historically accurate.

[Gaias]

Would you say watch the teaser and theatrical traliers 50 to 60 times in the last 2 months as excessive? I don't want to see this movie... I NEED to see this movie! Must wait 2 more days before I can... :skull:

[Goatbuster3000]

^ Oh my god, that sucks. I'm going in 2 1/2 hours
:beam:

[NeoSpartan]

I know it is not historical HOWEVER, the IDEALS and VALUES that are represented in this movie are historical.:2thumbsup:
So:
I am gonna see that movie TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!! :knight:







(tonight I go clubbing:yes: :bling:)

[Eberhard]

Going to see it tonight with a bunch of friends. Don't care if people are against it due to unhistorical details.. the ACTION is going to kick ass nonetheless. It's just a good way to spend a friday night, in my opinion.

[Rilder]

I'mma wait till its rentable, no way I'mma spend what it costs these days to go out to see a movie, I'l wait till its 5 bucks for a a few days rental, so if I like it I can watch it again. Besides Silent Hunter 4 is comming out in week or so and entertainment from games out last movies... :2thumbsup:

[Xtiaan72]

This seems like a movie that needs to be seen on the big screen at least once. Pony up Rilder! :yes:

[Olaf The Great]

This is SPPPPAAAAAAARRRRRRTTTAAAA!!!!!!!
...

But it wasn't as great as you made it out to be...In my opinion.

[CrownOfSwords]

Seen it, hate the difference from Gates of Fire. But its' bada$$$$ometer is very high up there with gladiator on my charts

[Dooz]

Aw man... probably one of the worst movies I've seen in a while. I'm not judging based on historical accuracy, obviously, or faithfulness to the comic as I've never read or seen it.

Just purely as a movie, it was terrible, every bit of it. Only a few of the action scenes were mildy entertaining, but even those got old after the 3rd battle with the same choreography and directing. Way too over the top, the acting, the over-dramatic musical close ups, everything.

I really wanted to like this movie, really I did. Even a positive outlook going in didn't help though. I walked out of the movie in a bad mood ultimately. I would not recommend it to anyone who is sensitive about movies. I would assume however, big fans of the comic or over-the-top action movies that are light on content might enjoy it.

Oh and I especially hated the King's wife. Feminism jammed down your throat, choking the man out of you, just like she choked the man out of Leonidas.

Gladiator was an infinitely better film in my opinion.

[Tiberius Nero]

I will watch it for the record, as I have done with more than half of the movies I have watched so far. Truly worthy films are few, but all of them, especially the bad ones tell much about our times. And this is what 300 does, it says an awful lot about today's world and next to nothing about the time and place it is set in.

[antisocialmunky]

It was pretty, not that violent and had alot of boobies and pretty words but not a whole lot of substance.

BTW - What the hell was up with that goat/person thing in Xerxes' Harem?

[Xtiaan72]

After reading Wonderland's comments I'm thinking about waiting for video. He is decribing the kind of movie I really don't like.

It amazes me how really bad movies can get decent reviews


Remember when all the reviews said that the last Star Wars movie was actually worth seeing? Of course I WANTED to believe them. Who doesn't want to see a good Star Wars movie? So I gulliby went to the movie with all the other sheep and again it's a total turd. Except, the third time I felt physically ill after the film because I should have known better. Damn you George Lucas, You made me sick and you still got my money!

[spirit_of_rob]

mite go if i bored and want to destroy an afternoon lol

[Zastrow]

300 was an incredible film, people who dislike it are missing the point of the film. I've heard people say its promotes Homosexuality cause of all the Spartans in cod pieces, I've heard it called racist as all the Spartans are WASPs versus a bunch of evil asian barbarians, and now feminimistic. Give me a break people. Go watch it and enjoy its amazing visuals and action, its based off the comic book. Its like Sin City, don't go watch it to get a realistic movie about city crime, go watch it to see an extremely entertaining movie with amazing visuals.

And anybody who doesn't have their chest tighten up during some of the action scenes isn't alive. :2thumbsup:

[Mr Jones]

i do believe that the only one of those things brought up was that someone said they didn't like the wife because they seemed to make her an overly feministic character. nobody has even mentioned anything about it being racist or promoting homosexuality. you said that anyone who doesn't enjoy it is missing the point and that it is all about the visuals, but the sole critic clearly stated that he didn't enjoy it because he found the action scenes wanting. sorry, not trying to start an argument, that last post just didn't seem to fit to me.

[edyzmedieval]

That was the most high-testosterone action movie I have ever seen.

[Xtiaan72]

Well, When 300 hundred buffed up guys are running around swinging swords with oil rubbed all over them, Some people might consider that homo-erotic.


It's like that scene from airplane:

" Hey Billy.....Do ever watch gladiator movies?"

[Suraknar]

Well,

~possibile Spoilers~

I am very Historically inclined, and because I am I recognise the importance of Art in our History.

I was not expecting another version of 60's movie "The 300 Spartans", which fueled my own immagination when I was a kid.

So I went to see an Artistic Perspective of the Historical Events and that is exactly what this is.

I really liked the movie, and how it interprets Historical events, I had heard it had some "fantasy" elements in to it and the degree of it is what worried me, but after watching it I find that any fantasy elements are superbly blended in and not exagerated.

This is like watching a Legend unfold before your eyes rather than visualising a historical Book describing the events.

Two Thumbs up!

So when you do watch it dont judge it from a modern point of view. As what you see could have very well been in the minds of the people back then. From one side Spartans were perceived as they are portrayed in this move on the other Persians were also perceived as they are shown.

Folcloric perception is what this movie is all about, and folcloric perception of the "then" people on top of it.

You will not hear Greek historical phrases, "Itan I epitas" or the famous "Molon Lave", yet they are there translated in english, you will not see Themistocles of the Athenians, not even the Second King of Sparta, yet the spirit of Spartans deeply rooted in to Spartan Tradition is there.

Spartans were a warrior culture, the "Macho" Elite of Greece in terms of Land Warfare, and all that is in that movie interpreted by the the rendering of spartans, tough, hard and muscular.

Yes by todays standards, some people say "homo-erotism", ...and? ...so? ...it is about greece in he 5th century BC, anyone knowing Greek History would know that in the Then Greek Culture, almost all ancient Greeks were Bi-sexual by todays standards, all more credit to the movie I say, these were pre-christian times, the concepts of love and Sex and mariage had very different meanings back then.

All the better, it may even prouve educational to some, who may come out of the theater with the thirst of wanting to find out more, with the thirst to learn the History behind this famous battle and the events sourounding that period, and in the proces learn more about their own selves.

I really appreciated this adaptation from an artistic and a conceptual point of view.

So watch it, and dont get boggled up by its form rather accept it as is, an artist's interpretation of events that did mark our history.

And above all enjoy its entetaining value, it is a movie not a documentary :)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I saw it this afternoon. Have no idea what it has to do with EB at this point now also. It's just uber-violent fantasy stuff in a black/white world. Personally I was disgusted with almost every bit of it.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

I saw it on IMAX tonite. I liked it....I guess I knew what to expect from a movie based on a comic. I really liked the aesthetic aspect of it. The fact it was filmed in my hometown (Montreal) was a plus! :director:

One think I agree with Tele tough. Not much in common between EB and 300...other than the fact some of us like both:laugh4:

[KarstenChu]

What is all this talk about homoeroticism...there wasn't even any in the movie?

I saw the movie and thoroughly enjoyed it. Naturally, I first approached the movie from a historical perspective which led to several disappointments. Then after the movie was over my friend made a point that its narrated by the surviving Spartan and then I decided to view the movie from the mind of a Spartan child listening to the tale and imagining the story as it was portrayed on screen. I found that this was a very satisfying way of interpreting the dreamlike imagery and style, especially the color scheme. I also believe that approaching the movie this way helps people to deal with the supposed "racist" shadow it casts on the Persians. Remember : history always changes to suit the needs of the audience and to portray the Persians as literal monsters would have served the needs of the narrator of the story quite nicely.

In my opinion, the best part of the movie was Leonidas. When I look at action movies, I judge almost the entire movie by who the star is. I ask myself "is he a pop culture whore" and I check for gelled/spiked hair and whatnot. When I saw Leonidas, I fell in love. Look at that magnificent beard, that fantastic fantastic beard. *swoon* But during the last scene with him alive, when the camera is rotating about his head, the actor looks like he's straight off of a coin from antiquity. Priceless.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's easy to hate disfigured, hideous, deformed, mutant, tyrranical enemies. It's also very easy to create them, and even more easy to make the audience understand who they are when you just make them all black or brown or mutant. I find little worth in any story that can't take the time to make a believeable bad guy. The opinion might not be popular, but I think it belittles the real actions of the Spartans. The situation they were placed in was much more complex than the one presented here and they still made their decisions and fought for what they believed in and I respect them more for choosing wisely and making the sacrifice they did than I would for choosing to defend themselves against a dark (literally) mutant ninja empire. Every enemy is not the same, but movies like this would have people think so. Anyway, a real movie today about Thermopylae would have been so much cooler in my opinion.

[Eduorius]

I totally agree with you buddy.

I can only hope that in 2008 Vin Diesel respects a bit more history and portraits a acceptable Hannibal.

[antisocialmunky]

Agreed. I much rather see a more historically accurate version of Thermopylae buttered up with alot of the mythos surrounding it such as the Spartans and Thebans fighting with their teeth and nails or the rumored attempt to assassinate Xerxes after the first day or the feinted retreat of the spartan phalanx or atleast the prophecy of the oracle for the sacrefice of the Spartan King and 300 men.

I mean, seeing uber 300 stylized guys fighting for glory and some farflung idea of freedom is kinda cool. Seeing 300 people and 700 volunteers sacrifice themselves for all of Greece.. for people that they have fought and never united with in the way they were now... to stand against an inplacable enemy as numerous as the stars in the heavens that they know they have no chance of defeating. That would be amazing.

[keravnos]

I don't think there is anyone alive who wouldn't like to see a movie called "Gates of Fire". Unfortunately for some reason, this wonderful would have been got sidetracked. Who knows? Maybe the success of "300" will force its creation.

Remember, it is an imperfect world. We have to get what we can and hope for the best:no:

[Dooz]

I do believe there is more to a movie than visuals... much, much more. In fact, visuals are a small part of the equation in a great movie. Of course for this movie, the visuals are the main draw and that's all anyone who likes it will talk about, as that's all there really is to talk about, considering its shortcomings contentwise.

One of the guys who I saw it with liked it and the reasons he gave just made me mad more than anything else. Basically the fact that "it's an underdog movie", "he's fighting for his country, freedom, etc." There's cliche, and then there's cliche. This movie was both. Basically what TA said.

'Course it all comes down to preference, as with everything else. So if you like it then good, you don't feel like you wasted your money.

[Xtiaan72]

https://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/LadyJ028/VinDiesal.jpg
Vin Diesal: HANNIBAL!!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2005/05/04/images/orlando_bloom_kingdom_of_heaven_interview_top.jpg
Orlando Bloom: Scipio Africanus!!!!


Vin Diesal as Hannibal......Awesome!!! Can't wait... It will be the greatest thing since The Rock as The Scorpion King.. And who can really fault that Oscar winning performance. Surely it won't live up to Tom Cruise as the last living samurai warrior though. Because noone could top that man...No one. Still it will be pretty good. A non-stop thrill ride of explosiveness. I hear that the elephants have rocket launchers on them....Sorry, Greek Fire launchers. And then there is this totally amazing part where Hannibal and Scipio Africanus ( Orlando Bloom in his most powerful sword wielding performance to date) wrestle to the death in the middle of the battlefield while both armies just stand around and watch! Not historical but its for the kids man...For the kids. Orlando really bulked up for this role too. I mean he's huge. And those two guys wrestling in loinclothes...It's really powerful film making. But I won't give away the end cause I don't want to ...You know. That would be a spoiler. But trust me it'sgreat and you won't believe who comes out on top. It's a really zinger of twist a that noone will anticipate!

Feel the heat folks. This is hot. Can't you feel how big this is going to be. 'The 300' came out with that war crazed rhino. BOOM! Right back at them with elephants with Greek Fire Launchers. Genius.....Genius.

And Vin is directing... People! Vin is directing. So Francis Ford Coppola watch out!

[Revenant]

"Vin Diesal as Hannibal......"

OMG, this dumb muscular man, previously acting in the worst action films I ever saw, like XXX (what was incidentally filmed in my country) and "Riddick chronicles" now acting as the master strategist Hannibal...

this cannot be,... please, not :thumbsdown:

[Tiberius Nero]

Umm tell me you are joking about Orlando Bloom playing Scipio. Please?

[Domitius Ulpianus]

It's easy to hate disfigured, hideous, deformed, mutant, tyrranical enemies. It's also very easy to create them, and even more easy to make the audience understand who they are when you just make them all black or brown or mutant. I find little worth in any story that can't take the time to make a believeable bad guy. The opinion might not be popular, but I think it belittles the real actions of the Spartans. The situation they were placed in was much more complex than the one presented here and they still made their decisions and fought for what they believed in and I respect them more for choosing wisely and making the sacrifice they did than I would for choosing to defend themselves against a dark (literally) mutant ninja empire. Every enemy is not the same, but movies like this would have people think so. Anyway, a real movie today about Thermopylae would have been so much cooler in my opinion.


Tele, I'm not going to start another "war of words"...because the point is if you didn't like the movie not even the ghost of Leonidas himself could make you change your opiniona about it. hehe...BUT I am pretty sure a lot of people willl comment this movie with me and that will mean 2 things: 1) it will give me the chance to inform them (with the limitation of my own knowledge) what we "really" know about how things happened. 2) we would have all remembered great warriors and cultures from antiquity....that alone in my book is priceless.

Now, a movie...any movie...is not great because it is historically correct. It's good or bad if the essential ingredients of any movie are there: Direction, actors, edition, Screenplay, Sound, Cinematography etc. Now if on top of that the movie tells "the truth"...whatever that is for you or me...well then we have a document for all eternity.

Now here is my question for you: is there such a movie? has any movie told the story as it is?...and to begin with...do we know the "truth" about anything?

But again, I understand and respect your opinion very much. Just wanted to put my 2 cents on the table.

[Tiberius Nero]

Well, even if we don't know the Truth, we can still make a well founded educated guess that Xerxes most probably wasn't the avatar of Beelzebub leading a marauding army of hellspawn to the west...

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Well, even if we don't know the Truth, we can still make a well founded educated guess that Xerxes most probably wasn't the avatar of Beelzebub leading a marauding army of hellspawn to the west...


Yes, for instructed people today...that might not be the case...but what about the spartan farmers at the time....maybe they did believed and saw "Xerxes as the avatar of Beelzebub leading a marauding army of hellspawn to the west"....now that is the interesting thing about "truth". :hourglass:

[Tiberius Nero]

No. The Greeks didn't have such simplistic views on the world, sorry. In the Iliad the Trojans are a bitter foe who are nevertheless represented as more humane urbane and civilized than the Acheans, from whose side the epic is delivered. Neither have I seen perception of the enemies as demons and monsters in a Greek text. Those are just modern notions again, projected into a place and time where they do not belong. Again, 300 says more about Miller and a contemporary simplistic Western focused worldview than anything else.

[antisocialmunky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2005/05/04/images/orlando_bloom_kingdom_of_heaven_interview_top.jpg
Orlando Bloom: Scipio Africanus!!!!


I can handle Vin Diesel as Hannibal, after all he's the director and executive producer(me thinks) but Orlando Bloom?!? WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!?

[aecp]

I totally agree with you buddy.

I can only hope that in 2008 Vin Diesel respects a bit more history and portraits a acceptable Hannibal.

Unfortunately, that seems unlikely. First of all, Vin Diesel is not only starring as Hannibal, but also directing, as mentioned by Xtiaan72. I haven't seen any of the movies hes directed but I have serious doubts whether he's capable of directing a movie like this. Second of all, I've read the reviews and some excerpts from the novel the movie is based on, and frankly it seems like total crap. Third of all, the writer of the screenplay is David Franzoni, who also wrote Gladiator and, far worse, King Arthur. Finally, I get the impression that Diesel is just handing out roles left and right to his old buddies from the terrible Riddick sequel.

Here's the movie on imdb

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0382731/

And here's the novel it's based on

http://www.amazon.com/Hannibal-Ross-Leckie/dp/1841955698/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6117402-9291338?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173623050&sr=8-1

And finally, heeeerreeeees Hasdrubal!!!!

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/hh/0602605/iid_1025715.jpg.html?seq=41&

[Domitius Ulpianus]

No. The Greeks didn't have such simplistic views on the world, sorry. In the Iliad the Trojans are a bitter foe who are nevertheless represented as more humane urbane and civilized than the Acheans, from whose side the epic is delivered. Neither have I seen perception of the enemies as demons and monsters in a Greek text. Those are just modern notions again, projected into a place and time where they do not belong. Again, 300 says more about Miller and a contemporary simplistic Western focused worldview than anything else.


Simplistic...ummm now when you say "the greeks"...who are you talking about?...I said explicitely a spartan farmer...not a writer, nor a philosopher, not a historian, not a general or a politician....a farmer I said...and that is the other interesting thing about "truth", not only his time frame perspective but its subjective approach. Or are you trying to imply here that each and every "greek" individual had the same opinion/believe about everything. I'm sure you don't ...that would be indeed simplistic.

Everything we have read from past civilizations is just a recollection of the thoughts and views of a certain elite that had access to writing. What do we know about how the rank and file soldier, the farmer or the slave perceipt, thought or felt about their time?....sadly the response is nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the difference between a hack/slash blockbuster-movie and a documentary. I'd also would die to see a 100% historically (if such thing exists) movie about anything with all the great movie ingredients I talked about before....but my question still remains: Have we ever seen such a movie?

BTW: Vin Diesel as Hannibal is in it's own already a bigger tragedy to history than the whole 300 movie..../cries

[Tiberius Nero]

What is indeed simplistic is to make assumptions; give me a documented example of what a Greek farmer thought of the Persians and we can take it from there.

From what I know from the Athenian perception of the Persians to say the least they did not view them as monsters and demons. Read the "Persians" of Aeschylus, which was played before an Athenian audience, to see that there is even sympathy there for the calamities of the enemy.

Viewing the enemies as monsters is simply not documented in Greek writings, sorry.

[Eduorius]

With movies like 300 I start to appreciate movies like Gladiator, Alexander, and Kingdom of Heaven.

[soibean]

I thought it was an amazing film, but as stated time and time again you can't go in there expecting historical accuracy or anything apart from a Frank Miller stylistic movie, aka Sin City.
The movie is nothing more than an action film created with the barest of historical facts, but it was beautifully created and choreographed (sp?). Plenty of witty one liners and laughable moments, as well as a great sound track. It has a mixture of some classical, if I remember correctly, together with some heavy metal to really get your adrenaline going. The metal gets you pumped up similar to the music in the xbox game Halo right before you entered a major battle.
From what I gathered from the audience in my theatre, everyone loved it as well. People started cheering and clapping when a persian force was repulsed when all seemed lost and we all wanted to see more of the wonders of the Persian Empire as well as the military might of the 300.

Id recommend it to anyone who is a fan of action films and doesnt require too deep a plot in order to have a great time

[Elminster12]

Doesn't sound interesting to me. Demons, IMO, make terrible villains due to completely lacking a dimension other than "evil." I'm not interested in it at all, and I wasn't very interested before, because I suspected it would go like this. One of the reasons I loved Gladiator and The Last Samurai so much is that, in the former, you could understand Commodus. He was wrong, and probably evil, but his motivations were understandable....he was jealous of Maximus and wanted what he felt was his due. In Last Samurai, it is the protagonist side that is misguided, and though they could've been kinder to Omura, I'll forgive it. In the end, Meiji(like Japan really did) elected a middle path....a Japanese modernization, not clinging foolishly to the past or sacrificing it. But...black and white? I hate black and white because absolutely nothing is....

[Xtiaan72]

Actually everything in my post was taking the piss except Vin Diesal is playing Hannibal and directing. Which to me sounds like comedy so I added the bit about Orlando Bloom....Because in a preposterous project like this a "bulked up Orlando Bloom", Well let's face it, something like that is going to happen.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

What is indeed simplistic is to make assumptions; give me a documented example of what a Greek farmer thought of the Persians and we can take it from there.

From what I know from the Athenian perception of the Persians to say the least they did not view them as monsters and demons. Read the "Persians" of Aeschylus, which was played before an Athenian audience, to see that there is even sympathy there for the calamities of the enemy.

Viewing the enemies as monsters is simply not documented in Greek writings, sorry.


Sorry to see you missed my point completely I never said a fermer viewed them like that I merely said we have NO CLUE at all....anyway now I realize you see truth as a uni-dimenasional entity ... I guess you are certain you know the truth about some stuff...I prefer to see truth as something that changes from person to person and from one age to another as we uncover our own ignorance progressively and today's paradigm is replaced by a new better informed one..We have enough historical examples of people that were "owners of the truth"...Hitler, Mussolini Stalin, Mao...

[Tiberius Nero]

Nope, you have missed the point: there are "legitimate versions of the truth" so to speak. Nothing at all whatsoever from what we know legitimizes us to think that Greeks thought of their adversaries as subhuman monsters. On the contrary much of the stuff we have shows even sympathy extended towards defeated foes and aknowledgement of worth; why? because one is all the more worthy if one has beaten a mighty worthy enemy and not subhuman beasts, like the Persians are made to look in 300, or because out of simple humanity and aknowledgement of the common human fate. Those are major themes in Greek writings; depicting enemies as demons isn't even heard of.

So Miller's version of the "truth" is not a legitimate one (historically as always, because this is what it is about), but it is a "truth" based on his contemporary perception of an event, not on anything else. It is as "true" as saying today that Achilles was an extraterrestrial (sure, why the hell not?) and spinning modern myths about old stories. I am not annoyed by this kind of activity always, but the level of propaganda in 300 makes my eyes bleed, so I guess I am more vocal about it.

[Xtiaan72]

but what about the spartan farmers at the time.



New Oxymoron: "Spartan Farmer"

Let's get the facts straight about "Spartan Farmers". Well, the one thing we all know about "Spartan farmers" is they were Helots, Slaves that were treated with uncommon brutality by their Spartan overlords. And we know The Spartans treated them that way because it let them be full time, kick ass warriors.

So if you think about it logically, the average "Spartan Farmer" was probably unaware of any Persian invasion at all. The Spartan Warriors" would have tried to keep that information from them out of fear of rebellion. If the "Spartan Farmers" did find out they would have been very quite about it because "Spartan Warriors" really wouldn't like that kind of talk.

And if the "Spartan Farmer" did talk quitely about it with other "Spartan Farmers" they might have had a dim thought in the back of their head that someone was trying to conquer their slavemasters and that they might one day be free.

[Dooz]

Hahaha, that was pretty good there X. Unfortunately, this was the first I heard of a Hannibal movie, so first sentence, I was super excited. Then comes Vin Diesel and I sink a little. Then comes Vin Diesel as director and I'm a depressed, suicidal maniac looking to take out a bunch of people before I go.

It sucks how every topic like this turns into a historical debate or one about truth and facts. Any notions of authenticity and realism, first of all should never have existed with regards to this movie, but even if they did they should have been thrown out before going into it.



Now, a movie...any movie...is not great because it is historically correct. It's good or bad if the essential ingredients of any movie are there: Direction, actors, edition, Screenplay, Sound, Cinematography etc.

Exactly. And with regards to all those points, it was a terrible film.

[mcantu]

Saw it this morning on IMAX. First off, let me say that it was very strange seeing 400 New Yorkers lined up outside a theater at 9am on a Sunday morning...

Second, damn entertaining movie. I even got choked up at the end

Did anyone else notice that the Spartan with the eye-patch (forgot his name) is Faramir from the LotR movies?

[Guywithagun]

I live in England, and the film "300" hasn't been released here yet, and to be honest, I am a fan of history, and would like more films to respect historical accuracy, but to hear that guy look at all those Persian warriors, knowing he was probably going to die very soon, and to turn to his men and yell "TONIGHT, WE DINE, IN HELL!!". I mean, c'mon. Thats brilliant.

[keravnos]

Well, in Greece it broke any record there was for first, second, third opening day. But, that is to be expected now, isn't it? :laugh4:

300 rocks!

[Boyar Son]

OMG! I just saw it and it is the action movie!

Watch it before you diss it.

It is an awsome action film that will make your jaw drop (people think jaw droping is a myth, but it is quite real, only experienced when completely awed).

[kambiz]

Well, in Greece it broke any record there was for first, second, third opening day. But, that is to be expected now, isn't it? :laugh4:

300 rocks!So you really excited by this movie ,right. And it broke any record for the first ,2nd ,3rd in Greece . . . And I'm sure it would broke even more records there my friend. YOU GREEKS ,I know you like these movies ,Not only you ,many of you westerners like them. Now YOU GREEKS! have very good reason to declare war on Iran. USA now have a trusted allies on his future war against Iran. YOU GREEKS Want to prove your so called "Thermopylae" ,Right? So come on my friend ,We in iran have many places like Thermopylae and I seriously want to show you the true Thermopylae.

SO COME ON YOU GREEKS ,Modern Thermopylae is in Iran ,IF YOU WANT IT !

[Boyar Son]

So you really excited by this movie ,right. And it broke any record for the first ,2nd ,3rd in Greece . . . And I'm sure it would broke even more records there my friend. YOU GREEKS ,I know you like these movies ,Not only you ,many of you westerners like them. Now YOU GREEKS! have very good reason to declare war on Iran. USA now have a trusted allies on his future war against Iran. YOU GREEKS Want to prove your so called "Thermopylae" ,Right? So come on my friend ,We in iran have many places like Thermopylae and I seriously want to show you the true Thermopylae.

SO COME ON YOU GREEKS ,Modern Thermopylae is in Iran ,IF YOU WANT IT !

Uh oh! we got ourselves a "my country is better than yours" debate!

[Xtiaan72]

So you really excited by this movie ,right. And it broke any record for the first ,2nd ,3rd in Greece . . . And I'm sure it would broke even more records there my friend. YOU GREEKS ,I know you like these movies ,Not only you ,many of you westerners like them. Now YOU GREEKS! have very good reason to declare war on Iran. USA now have a trusted allies on his future war against Iran. YOU GREEKS Want to prove your so called "Thermopylae" ,Right? So come on my friend ,We in iran have many places like Thermopylae and I seriously want to show you the true Thermopylae.

SO COME ON YOU GREEKS ,Modern Thermopylae is in Iran ,IF YOU WANT IT !



Whooooaaa.... That's pretty kooky stuff there man. Maybe you should see the movie first before you start WWIII over it. Oh that's right, you can't watch the movie in Iran because it wouldn't be allowed. My Bad!

[Boyar Son]

Nooo, this thread will be locked.

kambiz, if you really do not want to be infuriated by having your country insulted, skip the next few posts.

[abou]

I can't blame you for being mad, Kambiz. In fact, you probably should be mad (pissed even), but don't bring sentiments like these into the thread - at least not voiced in that fashion.

[Tiberius Nero]

I am Greek btw.

For my sake, kambiz don't yell, it is a ridiculous matter.

[aecp]

I can't blame you for being mad, In fact, you probably should be mad (pissed even),

He should be mad about the movie being popular in Greece?

[abou]

He should be mad about the movie being popular in Greece?
Kambiz is Iranian; his ancestors were those who made the Persian empire. To see his ancestors portrayed in such a manner is no doubt upsetting to him.

[aecp]

Kambiz is Iranian; his ancestors were those who made the Persian empire. To see his ancestors portrayed in such a manner is no doubt upsetting to him.

Even if I think that's hardly an excuse to throw a major hissy fit at some random strangers on the internet, I could atleast kind of understand it. But that wasn't really what he said.

Unless of course his post was just an elaborate troll, or an attempt to poke fun at people who have nothing better to do than to get upset over something that happened roughly 2500 years ago (in which case I'd find it flawlessly executed and very funny). Otherwise his post seemed only to imply that 300 being popular in Greece = USA and Greece declaring war on Iran.

[Tiberius Nero]

Seeing as my own compatriots raise such a ridiculously huge uproar when someone hints at subjects like homosexuality in the Macedonian court (I know personally scholars who received death threats for taking part in a panel with such a subject during a conference in Thessaloniki several years ago, it is a disgrace really), I can understand how a modern Persian would be furious at seeing his ancestors depicted as mutant hordes of gibbering beasts.

[aecp]

Seeing as my own compatriots raise such a ridiculously huge uproar when someone hints at subjects like homosexuality in the Macedonian court (I know personally scholars who received death threats for taking part in a panel with such a subject during a conference in Thessaloniki several years ago, it is a disgrace really), I can understand how a modern Persian would be furious at seeing his ancestors depicted as mutant hordes of gibbering beasts.

Understanding it is one thing, but I don't see why one should tolerate it on a moderated forum.

[Xtiaan72]

Guys, it's wierder than that. He's getting really angry about descriptions of a movie he clearly hasn't seen. Think about that for a second. That's a little coo coo!

[abou]

Guys, it's wierder than that. He's getting really angry about descriptions of a movie he clearly hasn't seen. Think about that for a second. That's a little coo coo!
It doesn't take a genius to notice how terribly the movie is skewed in its depictions from just a trailer that is up on apple.com. He doesn't need to see the movie, all he needs are a few screenshots of Xerxes.

[Foot]

Kambiz, it is well known that in the western world there is certainly an hellenic bias, this is unfortunate, particularly as persia during this period of history has just an equal a right to be respected in the western world, but it is also historically situated in western culture. Hollywood, appealing to the western world, finds it very difficult to show their films in anything other than from a helleno-centric position, because the christian tradition that so underlies western culture was itself born such a world.

Personally I have a fantastic admiration for the eastern world, particularly during this timeframe. Persia spawned three great empires, Mesopotamia has a history that is so rich in culture and history that it constantly astounds me with its awesome majesty. What is so fantastic indeed, is that most of this history is still to be uncovered! What I wouldn't give to read the Epic of Gilgamesh in its full glory, but even in its fractured state it has a power to inspire that is equal to the greatest writings of the hellenic world.

Kambiz, don't be upset by the success of 300 in the western world, it is merely a intepretation of that battle that panders to the familiarity of our cultures understanding of that history. Just as the depiction of the persians and the greeks in 300 makes no sense to you, the reverse would also be true, if it was a film based on an persian intepretation of Thermoplyae. Art is not there to represent a scientific understanding of history, it rather recreates the culture, history and identity of its audience and can only be understand by people who come from such a world.

Blah, I'm going on a bit, damn all this philosophy of art.

Foot

[Xtiaan72]

It doesn't take a genius to notice how terribly the movie is skewed in its depictions from just a trailer that is up on apple.com. He doesn't need to see the movie, all he needs are a few screenshots of Xerxes.



The movie is based on a really pulpy graphic novel! If he thought it was a bad depiction he should have said so. He didn't. He just jumped all over a guy who said the movie was doing well in Greece. I'm not defending the movie. I'm defending keravnos. Who's from Greece and likes the movie and has the right to say so in this thread.

Kambiz made an ill conceived, paranoid political statement about "Greeks and their Allies" which I personally take offence to. His comment had nothing to do with the movie and everything to do with his political views. This is not the place to post such comments and I feel like he owes all of us an apology. Especially Keravnos.

This was a fun, harmless thread and there was no reason for such garbage here.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Should we stop discussions of this here guys?

[Domitius Ulpianus]

It sucks how every topic like this turns into a historical debate or one about truth and facts. Any notions of authenticity and realism, first of all should never have existed with regards to this movie, but even if they did they should have been thrown out before going into it.



Exactly. And with regards to all those points, it was a terrible film.


Now this is a statement I can't argue against...if you think the movie failed in stuff like direction, screenplay, actors, edition...etc...I might not agree with you, after all it's a matter of personal taste, but is fair enough for me to accept and respect as an opinion.

[Lord Gruffles]

I haven't seen it but look forward to doing so.

FYI:

BOXOFFICE BLOODBATH: '300' BREAKS RECORD (http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/r-rated-300-makes-huge-numbers-25-mil-friday-for-expected-60-mil-wkd/)

[kambiz]

hey I found some new opponents:laugh4: Rome total war is good place for getting revenge.

From when the sounds of this nasty thing came up ,I had my own position against this movie. But I always tried to be cool about the matter. There's another thread about this thing which I posted just two posts there ,simply tried to explain why I am disagree with this movie ,No more posts.I did not insulted anyone in this forum(And I never do this). But how mutch we closed to the release date ,the number of threads about this nasty thing not only in this forum ,but in other forums increased ,with different titles about 300. I tired of this ,Everwhere there is a talk about it ,teasers in TV channels on internet ,too many threads in forums and even the nasty one ,Yahoo message board about this thing ,Full of insults to us ,"Persians are animals" ,"They were uncivilized ,must be slaughtered" ,"Persian Trolls" ,even in this sub forum "EB forum" we have at least 3-4 threads about it. I've found out why it should be so attractive for you. You like it ,Somthing inside you which you try to hide it(Although some of you don't). Killing persians ,West superiority ,Butchering anyone don't think like us. If it was just a movie for entartaining ,You didn't give it such a credit ,Yahoo message board in one of them (I haven't post anything there).Many of you consatntly say "It is just a movie" ,"It is for fun" ,"It is not a documentary". Iran and USA struggles reached in its peak ,And exactly at the middle of War talks ,We have a movie like 300 ! DO YOU REALLY THINK IT IS JUST AN ACCIDENT? Mobies somtimes made for political reasons ,Do you deny it? 9/11 is on fo them ,There's many of them in holywood(And all around the world). And we do know that sometimes government is behind them. So don't say that it is JUST an entertaining movie ,If you would like to think so and trick yourselves,I don't.
The last night me and some of my fiends saw the trailer of the movie. I never saw so mutch scenes of the movie before like I did last night. We really surprised and shocked when saw so called persians there. They were so angry about it and I told them that this is just a movie and they have the freedom to make everything ,But I personally was really sad about what been called a movie about Thermopylae. After that when I was checking EB sub forum ,I thought lets take a look at this thread ,I read some of the posts but when I reached keravnos's posts ,I couldn't hold myself anymore ,I thought that's enough just to sit and only watching. I didn't expect greeks to support this movie ,Greeks who I have so mutch respect to them like many other history lovers and those who believe in democracy.
Whooooaaa.... That's pretty kooky stuff there man. Maybe you should see the movie first before you start WWIII over it. Oh that's right, you can't watch the movie in Iran because it wouldn't be allowed. My Bad!
kambiz, if you really do not want to be infuriated by having your country insulted, skip the next few posts.Oh sorry to If I went out of my limits ,It is western realm and Democracy ! You are so sooo soooooooo Selfish !

@aecp
I bet you are one of those "sincerely cool guys in the world!" ,The master of logic which nothing is important just pure logic for him. Sorry that I am inferior to you ,because to me(And many other easterners) sentiments is also imortant.
I don't know why you think everybody should be like you and you are absolute right? Your democracy says that or your mathematical logic ? Your posts especially burn me ! We are sensitive and I agree this is not good ,But however ,That's whatever we are and your democracy says you should respect others believes ,Doesn't? You may don't mind who is your ancestors but it is important for many others. You may don't mind if your father being insulted ,But many others do.You say we have freedom ,thus we can make any movies about anything ! It is ridiculous ,That means for example Me and some of my friends gather in a street and when a poor little passenger cross we begin teasing him/her and when he/she says why you do so? we say in response : because here is freedom and we can do this with anyone and you can respond us if you want ! Is it a good excuse in your opinion? You want a movie who wntertains you? Well ,there are many subjects for such a movies. Why not the orcs ro trolls being your enemy of your freedom? and enjoy them bleed? It seems you are thirsty of blood ! By the Way ,I don't except some one like you to understand us ,So go and watch it thousands of times ,Why thousands ,Millions.

@Foot
My dear friend ,I accept your talks about helleno-centric position of western (Especially) movies. But making a helleno-centric movie is somthing and making a insulting movie about us is another thing. I explained this clearly in my response to aecp.
Kambiz, don't be upset by the success of 300 in the western world, it is merely a intepretation of that battle that panders to the familiarity of our cultures understanding of that history. Just as the depiction of the persians and the greeks in 300 makes no sense to you, the reverse would also be true, if it was a film based on an persian intepretation of Thermoplyae. Art is not there to represent a scientific understanding of history, it rather recreates the culture, history and identity of its audience and can only be understand by people who come from such a world. Once again ,this doesn't let them to insult others. Also I don't even expect them to make a 100% historical movie and as other said it is not possible ,but this is not an excuse for making such a movie against us. It is not abour historical accuracy ,It is about insulting and scorning a nation.

Also ,I have no problem with Spartans and the fact of the battle of Thermopylae. I also don't have any problem with greeks ,and as i said I do respect them so mutch and their cultural achievements who nobody can deny them. But not more than my history. Let's clarify somthing. AFAIK greeks expecially athenians were Aryan like we iranians are. So they are closer to us compare to you westerners who originally german or saxons or...
Aryans in greece chose democracy as a system of their governing ,And I call democracy a magic and we all know the magical effect of democracy ,On the other hand ,Aryans who migrated to middle east did not have the good situation their comrades had in greece. they had to live in the region who had been ruled by absolute rulers which was so cruel and heartless ,Assyrians were the last one alongside the babylonians. Their honor were to killing others and as they said by themselves when they took a city from their enemy they "Burned their city ,slaughtered them all and slaved their women and children" and Aryans had to find their way under this situation and of course they couldn't be democratic after hundreds of years living under the control of such a cruel dynasties. But when they reached the power ,instead of continuing that way ,They created a real kingdom. No more slaves ,People were free in their believes ,No more slaughtering of the defeated enemies.
Iranians did thier best. If they could have democratice system .Then I called them super nation ,becuase In my opinion ,It wasn't possible at the time.

@Xtiaan72

This is not the place to post such comments and I feel like he owes all of us an apology. Especially KeravnosI owe you an apology ,Ha ha ,You'r so funny you know. Why I should apologize you? I'm confused. I should apologize you because you made a movie to insult us? becuase all of YOU GREEKS ! are going to watch this movie thus supporting it? You that being offended in this way ,I wish you could be instead of me and feel what I feeling when I saw those scenes even in a trailer? YOU GREEK easily insult my ancestors and my history and in the name of democracy and then expect me to apologize you ?! It's Shameful. That's why I said so to Keravnos. YOU GREEKS want an apology? So COME AND GET ! . . . HELL.

Should we stop discussions of this here guys?MUST BE

At the end ,I'm so sorry if i offended anyone and I tried to be cool anyways. And sorry for my bad english.

Regards

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Umm never thought I would say this: Tele, could please you lock this thread?

Sorry If with my posts I contributed to "this". All I wanted was to exchange opinions about a theme I'm very passionate about, being a Law graduate:

"Truth".

Really sorry it all degenerated into this. ~:mecry:

Excuse my english too, is not my mother language.

[Foot]

@Foot
My dear friend ,I accept your talks about helleno-centric position of western (Especially) movies. But making a helleno-centric movie is somthing and making a insulting movie about us is another thing. I explained this clearly in my response to aecp.Once again ,this doesn't let them to insult others. Also I don't even expect them to make a 100% historical movie and as other said it is not possible ,but this is not an excuse for making such a movie against us. It is not abour historical accuracy ,It is about insulting and scorning a nation.

Also ,I have no problem with Spartans and the fact of the battle of Thermopylae. I also don't have any problem with greeks ,and as i said I do respect them so mutch and their cultural achievements who nobody can deny them. But not more than my history. Let's clarify somthing. AFAIK greeks expecially athenians were Aryan like we iranians are. So they are closer to us compare to you westerners who originally german or saxons or...
Aryans in greece chose democracy as a system of their governing ,And I call democracy a magic and we all know the magical effect of democracy ,On the other hand ,Aryans who migrated to middle east did not have the good situation their comrades had in greece. they had to live in the region who had been ruled by absolute rulers which was so cruel and heartless ,Assyrians were the last one alongside the babylonians. Their honor were to killing others and as they said by themselves when they took a city from their enemy they "Burned their city ,slaughtered them all and slaved their women and children" and Aryans had to find their way under this situation and of course they couldn't be democratic after hundreds of years living under the control of such a cruel dynasties. But when they reached the power ,instead of continuing that way ,They created a real kingdom. No more slaves ,People were free in their believes ,No more slaughtering of the defeated enemies.
Iranians did thier best. If they could have democratice system .Then I called them super nation ,becuase In my opinion ,It wasn't possible at the time.

This I must stress, 300 is not an insult. That you feel insulted means only that it has been misunderstood by yourself. In the movie, the characters and cultures are not stereotypes but archetypes of political, philosophical and moral positions. Here the greeks represent the force of freedom, democracy, righteousness, courage - all those good traits that are so important to our democratic west - and so represent the good. In the age-old battle, good must always be confronted with evil, and thus the enemies of the greeks must be the archetype of evil. Persia and Persians represent the opposite of freedom, democracy, righteousness and courage - they do not represent persians or Persia! 300 plays out like a myth, and in this sense it certainly is propaganda. Here the propaganda is the triumph of good over evil, of freedom over slavery, of democracy over tyranny, of courage over cowardice. 300 portrays the persians as evil not because they were, but because in the story it is demanded of it. A more complex telling would certainly wish to look at the tale in shades of grey, but as a myth 300 must be told in black and white. It is not an insult to persia, because it doesn't represent persia; persia is used as a metaphor for evil, just as greece is used as a metaphor for good.

Now I do not doubt, and indeed would argue, that the current political climate has informed this film and interpretation of this story. A myth must be historically situated for it to have any meaning. It would make no sense to have the persians act as a poetic metaphor for evil if history had placed the middle-east and the successors of the persians as stalwart allies of the western, christian tradition.

What must be remembered is that art does not make the world, rather it remakes it anew so that the audience can become aware of the world that they inhabit (and by world, I mean their customs, traditions, culture, understanding of being etc). I do not expect 300 to inspire a self-critical air to the world that westerners live in, it certainly isn't meant to and as it is not great art its representation of the world does not inspire self-concious - but entertainment has its place.

As for democracy, do not go so far in praising it. History repeats itself and just as Athens under democracy burned those cities who would not accept the 'freedom' of their enlightened neighbours, we know spread democracy by burning those who oppose. Achaemenid Persia contained a more tolerant outlook to different cultures, and in fact the culture and religion of persis was influenced far more by the peoples it conquered, than the conquered peoples were ever influenced by persis (awful sentence, sorry).

Foot

[aecp]

You may don't mind who is your ancestors but it is important for many others. You may don't mind if your father being insulted ,But many others do.You say we have freedom ,thus we can make any movies about anything ! It is ridiculous ,That means for example Me and some of my friends gather in a street and when a poor little passenger cross we begin teasing him/her and when he/she says why you do so? we say in response : because here is freedom and we can do this with anyone and you can respond us if you want ! Is it a good excuse in your opinion? You want a movie who wntertains you? Well ,there are many subjects for such a movies. Why not the orcs ro trolls being your enemy of your freedom? and enjoy them bleed? It seems you are thirsty of blood !

Well, first of all 300 doesn't really depict anyone's ancestors, it's fiction, based on a comic which happens to be loosely based on Herodotos. Second, I think there's a big difference between a movie/internet and insulting someone in person. Of course I'd be upset if someone did that. And I do find it irritating when a writer or director presents a work full of flaws and misinformations as historically accurate. My point is that 300 simply doesn't do that, it's pure myth. And anyway, there's no reason not to be civil about it. The world would be a better place if people could calm down and not overreact to stuff that really isn't worth it.

[Thaatu]

Maybe after EB2, the team should put up a film studio. Oh come on, if you can make a game you can make a movie too! Of course movies aren't moddable at the moment, but in a few years...

[The Persian Cataphract]

Enough Kambiz. You may have been insulted by a movie based off a mere comic book, but that gives you no right to insult my friend, nor his people. The last stand of the 300 Spartans, with or without this silly movie, was a noble sacrifice, something we Iranians should respect and honour. It was the stupidity and the arrogance of Khashâyârshâh that would immortalize the valour of the Spartans and the The Thespians, not Persian inferiority. This man was inferior to his own father, a man who used to be the regal spear-bearer. When I see you post insults and infantile remarks like "Hey Greeks, come to Iran for a Thermopylae!" I can only get more and more ashamed of my countrymen who shut their eyes while they shout. Let me ask you something, kambiz. Did this movie change history? Have Greeks, our most honourable foe in the entire course of history turned into a new reinvigorated enemy of yours? You have no right to touch the heart of the Greek pride, and their pride lies in their stout defence against insurmountable odds, something we Iranians must acknowledge.

For one second, for one split second take a look at our own country. We Iranians are the masters of complaining. Didn't the Islamic regime spend millions of dollars in sponsored money for a TV-series on Ali Ibn Abu Talib and his womanizer son Husayn Ibn Ali? Isn't it the same stupid regime who calls Zoroastrians and other minorities "descended from animals"? Isn't it this same stupid regime who has built a dam, a potential danger to our cultural heritage? if "300" depicts their image of Persians as bloodthirsty demons, then it applies perfectly to the theocratic, Islamic usurpers who put our country to shame for over 27 years. It's time for Iranians to make a stand, Kambiz. Iranians can't have both Islam and their ancient heritage, unless they want to give birth to bastard children as ugly as the hunchbacks of "300". You can't celebrate Nowrûz with a Qur'an. You can not say "Ya abelfezl" while you count the seconds. Iranians can not complain about caricatures while at the same time complain about a movie depicting Iranians in their alleged "jahiliyat" (Period of religious ignorance as the muslim Iranians would like to call it). It's hypocrisy. Recently some official from the Islamic regime called the movie an "insult to the Islamic Revolution".

How does he have the audacity? That is an insult. One of Iran's true enemies, slams the movie's depiction of "Persians" because it disturbs muslim sensibilities and the Islamic revolution. My Greek friend has done nothing wrong for just stating his opinion on a film made for entertainment. If you are so easily upset over Xerxes being depicted as a black man with a fetish for dervish practices, and some Persians being depicted as recycled creatures from the third Lord of The Rings movie, then how come no one boycotts the Islamic Regime for being wreckless against ancient Iranian heritage? Years have gone since the Bam earthquake yet most live in tents supplied by the Red Cross, and the Arg-î Bam, the Emerald of the Desert, a true showcase of Parthian power, has been neglected since that devastating earthquake. I'll tell you why all our national treasures are neglected: The Islamic regime does not give a shit about Iran's national identity. Millions of dollars are sent to restoration projects in the "holy Shi'ite sites" of Iraq, but God forbid that they send a few hundreds of bucks to prevent the collapse of Partho-Sassanian mortar.

Greeks and Iranians fought against each other for centuries. Neither truly the winner nor the loser. Alexander annexed the Persian Empire, the Parthians avenged it, the Sassanians almost crushed the Byzantines, the Byzantines fought back. Greeks had the Thermopylae, we had the last stand at the Persian Gates. There is a bright future lying ahead for Greeks and Iranians, for as long as we fought each other, we had exchanges like no other rivals in history. The Greeks have their Spartans, we Iranians have our cavalry. Greeks are at the very least historically aware of themselves, just take a look at our own population. Most people think that Iran was born in the wake of Islam! The entire West knows of the Spartans, but not even Iranians are aware of their own Pahlavân horsemen. That is worth lamenting.

If Iranians want to make their own movie depicting "Persia" in all her glory, no one will protest. Yes, do it by all means, do depict Romans or Greeks as reptiles if that will soothe the childish thirst for revenge in the most primal level of Tu-Quoque and please do depict Persians as armoured cavalry in plate armour. Good God, I hope I haven't given anyone silly ideas... I'd rather drink rat's poison than allow the Islamic regime tarnishing history just for making a movie for the sake of silly retaliation. Kambiz, I expect you to be a man true of your heritage, and apologize to Keravnos, not for the sake of humbling yourself, but rather for the sake of proving that we all can lose our temper for a silly cause yet able to retain our dignity. I do not demand this of you, but always think of your âberû, and as much as Iranian means "noble", a noble man, âbarmânig, dignity is always at best when retained. I'm not asking you to like this movie, not at all, I do understand if Iranians do get offended, and I do understand that freedom of speech does go both ways, but to me it is embarassing to see a bunch of people signing petitions.

Bâ sepâs.

[Foot]

His eloquence shines again.

Foot

[Vorian]

Persian Cataphract that was one of the few posts of this length that I manage to finish. Very good points, and I think the conversation is over. As for kambiz, he should know that a US attack in Iran would find Greeks totally opposite, since our society is too anti-american right now.

PS: These discussions should take place in political forums, not a forum dedicated to a game. Just my opinion.:2thumbsup:

[mAIOR]

I make Vorian words my own. And before reading your post I was gonna answer (not so elaboratly with so many examples) as Irans regime constantle neglects his national Heritage in liew of modern Islam. But now, no need.

Now, back on topic, After seing most of this topic, I got even more curious about this movie. Is it that action packed as the trailer akes us believe and the Comic depics it? Is it an adaptation like Sin City??

Cheers...

[GeneticFlea]

its as action packed as Sin city sure. Its definitely different, in its filming and the pace of the movie, but the idea of a stylized frank miller world is still the same. Not to mention, did anyone else notice how often they said sparta? it was ridiculous "Sparta is this, spartans, dont we love sparta for being spartan?"

But on my own opinions, the movie, visually was cool, i especially like the image of the phenecian, Egyptian and ionian fleet in the storm, that was impressive. But seeing as i just finished reading Herodotus and Persian fire by tom holland, i find this movie depressing. Depressing in that i know the truth of what happened, and so many people i know think they understand these events based soley on this movie. I personally really wanted to see Themistocles and eurybiades and the whole freakin naval aspect! i mean in reality those battles were what won the war for the greeks, not the 300.

And it would have been nice to see an actual phalanx, and some of the strategies the Spartans actually used, like retreating in formation and turning on the tricked foe, or rotating the front fighters every few minutes. Hell they couldve shown the thespians and all the other allies who fought with them, or even there helots who they forced into battle with them.

I guess you could go on forever with what they couldve done to make this movie realistic. Im a big proponent of historical accuracy( seeing as were EB fans, i guess we all our), however one good thing did come from this movie, some of the clueless guys i went with actually started asking me questions about what REALLY happened. And if this can get them interested in the truth, i cant hate that.


BTW if i was Athenian, id be pissed at this movie, seeing they were left totally out of this war, and they were one of the biggest reasons it happened! and the biggest players!

[Domitius Ulpianus]

New Oxymoron: "Spartan Farmer"

Let's get the facts straight about "Spartan Farmers". Well, the one thing we all know about "Spartan farmers" is they were Helots, Slaves that were treated with uncommon brutality by their Spartan overlords. And we know The Spartans treated them that way because it let them be full time, kick ass warriors.

So if you think about it logically, the average "Spartan Farmer" was probably unaware of any Persian invasion at all. The Spartan Warriors" would have tried to keep that information from them out of fear of rebellion. If the "Spartan Farmers" did find out they would have been very quite about it because "Spartan Warriors" really wouldn't like that kind of talk.

And if the "Spartan Farmer" did talk quitely about it with other "Spartan Farmers" they might have had a dim thought in the back of their head that someone was trying to conquer their slavemasters and that they might one day be free.


Umm, now that everything looks back to normal. I think it would be good to comment this. After all, is love for history what brings us all here.

Dear X, yes, you are right in you observations if we understand the term Spartan only as those with full citizen status "the spartiates". In that light your observation would have been a 100% accurate if I would have said "spartiate farmer", but I did not.

On the other hand, if we understand the term Spartan, not just to describe the dominant caste, but all those people composing the Spartan society (The Spartiates, the Perioikoi and the Helots)...then I don't see why the expression "Spartan farmer" would be a "Oxymoron" LOL (lovely term btw)

It is interesting that in your reply you forgot to talk about the Perioikoi caste which handled all the trade and commerce for the city, being that it was forbidden by law for the Spartiates to participate in such activities.

Now, if I'm not wrong the Perioikoi were free men, mainly farmers and merchants who lacked the full citizenship of the Spartiates, but the territory they occupied formed part of the Spartan territory. If I recall right they could form part of the civil army, but of course they had no political rights.

Anyway, just wanted to comment this point. And please if someone better informed than me has something to add or correct, by all means please do so. I would gladly learn more about this. The social composition of ancient civilization is something I have always found very interesting.

[Tiberius Nero]

BTW if i was Athenian, id be pissed at this movie, seeing they were left totally out of this war, and they were one of the biggest reasons it happened! and the biggest players!

Yep, you got me that's the true reason why I hated the graphic novel, because I am Athenian. :P

[Boyar Son]

kambiz, if you do not want to be dragged into a big political discussion, skip the next few posts.

P.S. you're selfish!

[The Persian Cataphract]

Knock it off. It's not like you are going to add anything but oil to fire if you are going to provoke him with inanities.

[Xtiaan72]

Now, if I'm not wrong the Perioikoi were free men, mainly farmers and merchants who lacked the full citizenship of the Spartiates, but the territory they occupied formed part of the Spartan territory. If I recall right they could form part of the civil army, but of course they had no political rights.

- Domitius Ulpianus

Actually I didn't know that there was a third class of people in Spartan society. That's really interesting. I'm going to read up on it, thanks for educating me. By the way, I meant nothing personal by my comment. If you haven't noticed I have a bit of a twisted sense of humor and I just thought the idea of a "Spartan Farmer" was pretty funny. I just picture a Spartan warrior wearing full regalia in the middle of a field scratching his head going:

"So this is the seed and it goes where?"


And the helot going....

" Mr Spartan, you bury them in that furrow in neat rows"....


I know we are moving on but I would also like to add my voice to those praising The Persian Cataphract's post. It was the best post I've seen on this or any other forum in a long time. It really moved me. It brought back memories of late night conversations I had in college with my friend Hussein. Hussein's father was a general in The Shah's Army and their family was forced to flee the country. His father didn't make it. To hear the story in his own words was extremely powerful and it left an impression on me that has stayed with me. Believe me when I say I hope for peace annd justice for all Iranians.

Thank you Mr Cataphract.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

"So this is the seed and it goes where?"

And the helot going....

" Mr Spartan, you bury them in that furrow in neat rows"....

:laugh4:

Don't worry I never thought your reply was disrespectful or that it was personnal. I love to discuss these topics.


BTW I didn't say anything about The Persian Cataphract post, because I don't think there was anything else to say... after such a post.:2thumbsup:

[Boyar Son]

Overeacting, I just made a suggestion. A way not to get angry is simply ignoring others.

Besides I did not say anything wrong, you percieved it that way.

Noo I'm getting dragged into a long political dicussion. But I must.:yes:

[Foot]

Overeacting, I just made a suggestion. A way not to get angry is simply ignoring others.

Besides I did not say anything wrong, you percieved it that way.

Noo I'm getting dragged into a long political dicussion. But I must.:yes:

You said that Kambiz was selfish, which certainly isn't helpful is just as likely not to be true, seeing as all you know of him is what he posts on this board. Perhaps you should be more constructive in your replies here, I can't imagine how you could be part of any political discussion without being so.

Foot

[Boyar Son]

No, no...

He said it first in a reply, then I said it back. Exclamation marks was used as a sign of light heartedness!!

[Xtiaan72]

Don't worry I never thought your reply was disrespectful or that it was personnal. I love to discuss these topics



Well, You know people have gotten a little touchy up here lately!:laugh4: But I have to admit it got me thinking. I suppose it's easy to forget how much impact American movies and music and such has around the globe. And the product is consumed in places that hate where the content comes from. Yet they still consume it.

It's strange to think about really retarded American action movies feeding the flames of global conflagration. But I guess they do.

[aecp]

On that note...

Shit is ON!


Iranian official lashes out at Hollywood movie "300" for insulting Persian civilization

An Iranian official on Sunday lashed out at the Hollywood movie "300" for insulting the Persian civilization, local Fars News Agency reported.

Javad Shamqadri, an art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, accused the new movie of being "part of a comprehensive U.S. psychological war aimed at Iranian culture", said the report.

Shamqadri was quoted as saying "following the Islamic Revolution in Iran, Hollywood and cultural authorities in the U.S. initiated studies to figure out how to attack Iranian culture," adding "certainly, the recent movie is a product of such studies."

The movie's effort wound be fruitless, because "values in Iranian culture and the Islamic Revolution are too strongly seated to be damaged by such plans", said the Iranin official.

Shamqadri, who is also a filmmaker, said that production of more domestic and artistic films which portray Iranian achievements is a proper response to movies like "300".

I guess credit goes to The Persian Cataphract for calling it.

[Xtiaan72]

Three cheers for Shamqadri! He just got some kick-ass funding from his government to make an equally silly film I bet. Can't wait to see the modern Islamo-Persian view on Zoroastrianism. That should be rich entertainment to say the least.:dizzy2: Can't wait for the scene where Zerxes has a dream and is visited by the prophet Mohammed! Good stuff.

[-Praetor-]

Please, would people drop it with comments like "you`re selfish" and all. This`s a very good thread for all of us, and I would hate to see it locked.

I was thinking to myself, what about all those computer games and movies that depict germans during WW2 as stereotyped stupid evil twerps?? (Going from any hollywood movie that treats the subject till Return to Castle Wolfenstein) I would like to ask some opinions on that, related with this movie (300).

Don`t you think, when seeing those movies or playing that games, that they are grossly disrespectful to today`s germans?

I remember my ol` grandaddy`s saying: "To be as dumb as a movie-german"

[Teleklos Archelaou]

That's a nice saying though k_raso - I'll have to remember that one.

[Watchman]

Given that the Nazis on the whole really were a bunch of stupid evil twerps and really did pursue some rather kooky (and creepy) avenues of research and thinking... nevermind now that elation of emotion over sense was a pretty central part of their ideology.

There's good reasons why they're often the subject of expressions such as "civilisation gone wrong".

[Xtiaan72]

I think your right Watchmen. It certainly doesn't ease the stereotype that major Nazi figures like Hitler, Goering and Himmler were such extreme characters that beg to be satirized; The costumes, the symbols, the goose-stepping, the screaming rhetoric and theatrics. It would be comical if the people themselves weren't so genuinely evil. No parody was necessary, they parodied themselves.

[HFox]

Theres some historical and socially educational gems in this thread....

...thanks to X, PC, Foot and others. Especially those involved in the 'discussion' who didn't let it degenerate (too much :)) but actually read and understood what was being posted before replying (without reacting as if napalm had been poured in their pants).

Again this forum is a historical information gem, many thanks to you all.

...I wish half of this stuff could get to a wider audience

[Watchman]

I think your right Watchmen. It certainly doesn't ease the stereotype that major Nazi figures like Hitler, Goering and Himmler were such extreme characters that beg to be satirized; The costumes, the symbols, the goose-stepping, the screaming rhetoric and theatrics. It would be comical if the people themselves weren't so genuinely evil. No parody was necessary, they parodied themselves.
One of the creepier things about the lot was that they weren't some kinds of evil geniuses. Instead they were on the average a bunch of sorry losers and sad sacks, vulgar little twerps with self-esteem issues and delusions of grandeur. The kind you can find staring gloomily into a glass of beer at the bar on a Friday night.

Most of the big shots were chronically incompetent at their assigned duties as well (which ought to tell you something about Adolf's criterias and leadership competence), to the point where one sometimes wonders if they weren't actually trying to undermine Die Reich from within, although there were exceptions.

Real evil tends to be... banal. Often even downright vulgar. Which is one reason I find stupidly over-the-top villains à la 300 so distasteful, doubly so as such caricaturization and dualistical morality really should have no place in the story.

[kambiz]

Hi All;
Okay ,I do apologize anyone probably offended by my posts (Although I did not insulted anyone). However this does not mean I have changed my mind.

It seems you haven't read my post carefully ,just looking for somting to use it aganist me. So let me list what I said before in brief :
1- This movie (Unlike what you trying to approve) have changed many people's insight or at least made a terrible picture of us for them. As I mentioned Yahoo Message board is a good example.
2- Words like "This is just a comic movie" ,"This about good & evil thus they used persians and it has nothing to do with you!" ."It's myth" ,"It's fiction" and ... are not any excuse for making such a movie. I can't understand ,Why you think they are good reasons to let anyone
making any Sh** he wanst?!
3 -Time for making this movie. This is the most important thing for me and nobody gave a response to this one. Needelss to mention the current situation my country is in it. Making such a movie by holywood exactly at the same time is quite dubious. We have many examples of such movies made when US has got problem with another country and they made a worst one against iranians. I ask you again and except a honest response : Do you think it was jsut an unfortunate accident that such movie made exactly at the middle of Iran-US struggle??? they could make it 5 years earlier or later or when this situation has finished ,Couldn't?

I think there's a big difference between a movie/internet and insulting someone in person.Oh really? So I can insult you through internet ,Yes?:laugh4:
it's pure myth.Which one is a myth? this movie or the battle of Thermopylae???
@Foot
Dear Foot ,I can't get what you want to say truly ,However ,I think I did reply to your argument. BTW ,Saying that it is a movie ,whether historical ,political ,racial ,even comic is not good reason for insulting other nations. I think it is clear and simple.

@The Persian Cataphract
Now you my friend ,The Persian Cataphract !
All you said is true ,All of them. yes people are muslim ,The regime is our histroy main enemy and many other things. But there are many others like me who don't think like that and you know well that majority of iranians are against this regime ,and I consider myself a nationalist who only the future and Iran is my main concern. I see all of them better than all of you. I'm living in this country while you are not. I see them by myself. But whether we like it or not ,peolpe (While they are shiit muslems) are so proud of their history ,and you can see under mullah's pressures ,they still celebrate "No-Rooz" and the last wednesday of the year as best as they can. It's reality my friend and you should accept that you are not the only iranian worry about our ancient histoty. And even more ,All you have mentioned have nothing to do with letting foreigners to make such a movies. Our problem relates to us iranians ,Giving foreigners no permission to ill use of our situation.
Also you named many of we iranians bad habits ,But do you know one of them is that we sell eachothers so easily? Common people call such a men "traitor" ! And especially our contry suffered and lost so mutch because of traitors in the last 2-3 centuries. "Lotf ali khan" Shahryar'e zand ,"Amir kabir" and at last "Mosadegh" who are great men who could make our country far better than what we are now ,but victimed by traitors. Thus I hate traitors more than some simple people ,honestly (But because of lack of information) worship some arabs.
You may have been insulted by a movie based off a mere comic book, but that gives you no right to insult my friend, nor his people. Of course I was insulted by this movie ,but can you tell me how and when I insulted your so called FRIENDS !? I used to think I am your friend as well ,But it seems I was wrong. You sold out me ,I really didn't expect that from you ,Your Friends ! Those greeks are your friends? The Persian Cataphract ,even if I wasn't your fiend ,I was still your countryman ,My value for you is less than bunch of foreigners? Perhaps like aecp ,You are man of logic and words like ountryman is meaningless for you. Let assume that what I said was all incorrect(Which weren't) ,Still I did expect you to to guide me not in front of others but (Friendly) in private Bi maram ,In rasmesh nabud ke maro injury jeluye in ashghala bekubi ,Man jeddan az dastet asabaniam ,Kari ke to kardi (Tu dunyaye refaghat) behesh migan "Namardi" ! Inja ma ba dustamon injury hastim ,Yani azashon entezar darim dar har halat havaye maro dashte bashan. Akhe bi ensaf ,man inja tako tnham ,Onvaght to miri taraf onaro migiri ,Taze "Kaseye dagh tar az ash" mishi !Hala farz konim man eshtebah mikonam va to mikhay mano rahnamaei koni ,Bayad jeloye ina in karo bokoni? Nemitunesti be man PM bedi ya daste kam be parsi (Jury ke faghat khudam befahmam) be man inaro begi? Vaghean fekr mikoni karet dorost bud? Jeddan bahali ,Kheli bahali ,Damet garm ke injur maro zaye kardi]
I can only get more and more ashamed of my countrymen I'm so sorry that you are ashamed of your countrymen as I am as well. If I cause you to ashame ,sorry ,I can't do anything for you ,because then you have to ashame forever of your countrymen. What can I say when you say "My ashame of my countrymen". instead of response to me ,Learn of some of your FRIENDS! and see that if their country reached somewhere that's because they weren't ashamed of what they are. England and Japan are good examples of nationalist sensations.
Let me ask you something, kambiz. Did this movie change history?This movie cannot change the reality. Nobody can change what happened in the past ,But movies like this can of course ,change people insight about it. What we know about anything and history as well is is depneds on what we get and know about it. Thus when uninformed people watch this movie ,they think iranins are (Or were) savage people with such an uncivilized culture. This is your response.
Have Greeks, our most honourable foe in the entire course of history turned into a new reinvigorated enemy of yours?Greeks are (Or were) our honorable foes ?! By the way ,I said that I have no problem with them and apologize them. Enough?
their pride lies in their stout defence against insurmountable odds, something we Iranians must acknowledge.Ha haa are you kidding mate? Learn from "300"? Hell ,NEVER ! You can learn from bunch of spartans ,But I don't need to learn important things like bravery ,proud and honor from them. Thank god ,We have enough examples in our history and culture so don't need to learn of Greeks!

Anyways ,I don't want to take apart you just because of such a movie ,especially that "No-Rooz" is near and it is time for friendship and love and peace in our culture and hostilities ceased at this time.

Regards

P.S The Persian Cataphract in finglish : Man yek PM baraye shoma ferestadam ,Agar nemikhay passokh bedi ,LOTFAN bego ke man montazer nabasham. Be har hal man on ettelaato baraye khodam nemikham ,Omidvaram ke inro dark koni.

[Vorian]

Kambiz chill out. The movie maybe was done in a curious time period but the comic is older. I read it and the movie is prety much the same.

[aecp]

Oh really? So I can insult you through internet ,Yes?

The way I see it, an insult (if intended as such) made over the internet says more about the one making it than the one receiving it. Seeing as how the concept of attempting to seriously insult someone anonymously over the internet is juvenile at best. That doesn't mean I find it acceptable, I just don't think that there's any reason to explode into rage about it.


Which one is a myth? this movie or the battle of Thermopylae???

The movie and the comic it was based on.


Time for making this movie. This is the most important thing for me and nobody gave a response to this one. Needelss to mention the current situation my country is in it. Making such a movie by holywood exactly at the same time is quite dubious.

The comic was made in 1998 and the movie has been in the works since the success of Sin City. I doubt that this movie could have been made five years ago because of technological limitations. Neither do I think that there would have been any interest in doing a nearly frame-by-frame adaption of a comic until Sin City came around. Cashing in on the concept of Sin City while people are still excited about it and Hollywood execs are still willing to indulge them is probably the reason why Miller-Snyder wanted to move fast on this movie and not wait until the current political situation calms down.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Well Kambiz, it seems that I have utterly failed at reaching out my message to you. I intended for it to clarify, as well as I intended to bring out my own opinion pertaining to the general Iranian reaction to this movie. You translated it as a character attack and you have declared me a sell-out, a backstabber, a traitor who just had in mind to humiliate you. I am sorry if you saw and still see it that way, because that was not in my intention at all. However in the midst of this storm of accusations you've poured against me, I see nothing more than an emotional outburst. I ask you to calm down. It is true that I do not live in Iran, and it is true that I have yet to see the everyday situation with my own eyes to make a truly qualified verdict on Iranian traditions. Yet I do know what truly is going on there. I may not have set my foot into Iran since I fled from there, but I am not a naïve ignoramus. This Greek whom I defend like a friend, is worth more than any ignorant Iranian who beats himself in the honour of genocidal lizard eaters (Or brings a jar of paint to Persepolis for the sake of vandalizing Iranian heritage), for he is a true admirer of ancient Iranian history, as I am an admirer of Greek achievements. They were de facto our most honourable foes for our relation stretches for more than a thousand years of war and mutual exchanges where both had their fleeting successes and moments of humiliation. What do you expect me to do? I like you Kambiz, you've got a keen, curious eye for learning, but you can't expect me to blindly follow you when you say things like "Hey Greeks, go to Iran if you want a modern Thermopylae!" merely because of the risk of "selling you out". I'm not. I'm trying to tell the rest of the people here that you are just upset, I am even trying to save your face by exclaiming understanding to how you could possibly feel.

But at the same time, you have shown the habit of posting messages when you instead should chill out, drink some châë, talk to your wife and whatnot. Believe it or not the first time I had heard of this movie, I too was upset because of the way they depicted the Persians. But I gave it a thought. Now I take it as a joke, logically because the movie doesn't even take itself seriously. If it wasn't for all that blood, sex and gore, it would fit as a movie for children even. If we talked about a movie like Alexander which genuinely disturbed both Iranian and Greek sensibilities, I'd follow you to the end of the world. But it's not. Relax. Yê dutâ nafas begîrid, dâdâsh. Yûnânî yâ Nâ-Yûnânî, che farghi dâre? Mage Yûnânihâ âdam nistand? Shumâ kheyli digê eshtebâh kardî, enghad râ digê asabî nabâshid. Enghadr be in film râ fekr nakonid, ye châë bôkhôr, hâletûn behtar mishê. Harkê saritar ârûm shudi, shumâ mitûnid dobârê bê in môzû râ negâh kunid. Mage sheklam mesle marmulak-khôr Salman Nâ-Pârsî ast, ey vây ~:joker:

Mikhâstam barâyetûn ye javâb benevisam (Be PM), vali shumâ âlân ye zarre nârâhati. Be man faghad javâb bedid, nâmê barâyetûn mifrestâm.

[GeneticFlea]

ok this may sound a stupid question, but what is Finglish? faarsii(sp?) english?

[Domitius Ulpianus]

I said it before but I will repeat it now: From the very begining this movie never intended to show the battle of Thermopylae through a realistic perspective, it's a fantasy movie.

Don't take it seriously, complaining about it's historical innacuracy is like complaining about a hot dog, for not being fine cuisine. It maybe tasty, but it's still junk food, and never intended to be otherwise.

Let's just all get along and get over with it ~:grouphug:

[Tiberius Nero]

ok this may sound a stupid question, but what is Finglish? faarsii(sp?) english?

Probably Farsi written in the Latin alphabet, same as "Greeklish".

[kambiz]

Greetings everyone;
Allright I'm reporting at the midst of storm of explosions & some fire ;)

Dear "Savar'e Parsi" ,You can't believe how mutch I have respect for you thus for your greek friends. Your points recived. Also I don't have wife and looking for a good G/F ,Otherwise they could help me to calm down ,Right? ;)

@The Persian Cataphract in Finglish
Savar'e Parsi ,Man hanuz kucholoam ,hamash 22-23 salame ,Taze mikham kolli atish besozunam ;) Va hanuz bayad kheili chiza az kasani chon khude shoma yad begiram :) Dar rabete ba PM'i ke ferestadam ,Hamuntor ke goftam man inharo baraye yek mod mikham ,Har chand albate khodam ham yad khaham gereft ,Vali dar nahayat ,Baraye estefadeye shakhsi nist. Agar behtar beduni mitunam ba Team sazandeye IBFD ashnat kunam. Be har ruy az komaket sepasgozar khaham bud.
Zemnan dar hali ke man daram inro post mikonam ,Sedaye enfejar az har taraf myad "Incoming ! Take cover !" ;) Chahar shanbe surye dige ,Jaye shoma khali.
Probably Farsi written in the Latin alphabet, same as "Greeklish".Exactly my friend. Hehe I didn't know you have "Greeklish" too ,Cool !

Thanks a lot for the replies and tolerance [Ba Sepas]
-Kambiz

[Xtiaan72]

If we talked about a movie like Alexander which genuinely disturbed both Iranian and Greek sensibilities,



Well that one offended the sensibilities of anyone who likes a good movie!

----------

Whatever Kambiz's views are regarding this movie. I for one admire his bravery for speaking out against the regime while living in country. I know this is just a board with a niche audience. But it's a very international board and there are people in your country who might not like what you are saying. Be careful and safe Kambiz. I've known Persian ex-pats with family in Iran. And they all have some pretty crazy stories. I hope you know what you are doing.

[kambiz]

Thank you Xtiaan72. Actually I had such an experiences before ,But we never gave up. One thing we iranians could be so proud of (Even more than our ancient history) is our unstoppable efforts to gian freedom and law in our country during the last century which AFAIK is unique in the whole region. Although somtimes went to wrong directions like our 1979 revolution ,which caused a hugh frustration ,But as said ,It never stopped. I know that Iran's atomic case is the main thing you hear in your medias ,but you can still find its news ,Like women protest on 8 march which did coast them to be prisoned and teachers as well protested against the regime. These are the recent events. "Savar'e Parsi" can gives you better information ,My english prevents me to explain them in details.

But thanks for your kind words mate.

[Xtiaan72]

Well that's a beautiful thing if movies or anything else can begin to start a dialouge between real people from our two countries. There is hope that all this madness can end. Peace to you my friend.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Well that one offended the sensibilities of anyone who likes a good movie!



err THAT one offended the sensibilities of anyone. PERIOD.

LOL I really hated that movie.

[Boyar Son]

Yeah so no one likes getting there country insulted, very human I might add.

But people insult other peoples country all the time, like that movie made in Turkey about American atrocities in Iraq (please dont bring this into a Iraq discussion, let mine be the only or we're all doomed) sorry I couldnt remeber the name, but realeased maybe a year ago.

*trying very hard not to mention other leaders and lock this forum

[aecp]

I think this is what you're looking for.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493264/

I haven't seen it, but it sounds like a delightful romp! If a response to 300 is made, i sincerely hope that mr Shamqadri will consider Gary Busey for the role of Leonidas. That could only result in comedy of truly epic proportions.

[Xtiaan72]

I sincerely hope that mr Shamqadri will consider Gary Busey for the role of Leonidas.


Very Funny......

-------------------------

I just saw a five minute story on CNN about the Iranian reaction to the movie.
It's becoming an international political incident.

The Iranian's are claiming that the U.S government conducted studies after their revolution on how to attack their culture. And that this movie is a product of those studies..


Is that paranoid or what?

The only movies I've ever seen that were made using "Government Studies" were 50's news reels about "reefer madness" and not catching syphilis!

[kambiz]

K COSSACK advised me twice to skip the posts ,It seems I skipped this one:laugh4:
Iranian official lashes out at Hollywood movie "300" for insulting Persian civilization

An Iranian official on Sunday lashed out at the Hollywood movie "300" for insulting the Persian civilization, local Fars News Agency reported.

Javad Shamqadri, an art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, accused the new movie of being "part of a comprehensive U.S. psychological war aimed at Iranian culture", said the report.

Shamqadri was quoted as saying "following the Islamic Revolution in Iran, Hollywood and cultural authorities in the U.S. initiated studies to figure out how to attack Iranian culture," adding "certainly, the recent movie is a product of such studies."

The movie's effort wound be fruitless, because "values in Iranian culture and the Islamic Revolution are too strongly seated to be damaged by such plans", said the Iranin official.

Shamqadri, who is also a filmmaker, said that production of more domestic and artistic films which portray Iranian achievements is a proper response to movies like "300". Ah man ,This regime is the first enemy of our culture ,And Shamqadri is one of those nasty fanatics who if there wasn't becuase of regime's benefits ,He would be amongst the first ones who would ruin "Perspolis" ,No doubt. However ,This approves my previous anticipation (In another thread who I posted weeks ago) that Regime would use this movie for thier own use at their best. I hope the movie be as sexy as hell ,because it would prevent them to show it on public ! (Could Spartans be women:laugh4: ) It is the same number 3 issue ,The timing. The reality is ,many have the access to the outer world through government's medias and don't have internet or satellite to get better insight.

[Watchman]

The Iranian's are claiming that the U.S government conducted studies after their revolution on how to attack their culture. And that this movie is a product of those studies..


Is that paranoid or what?Actully, given that that would have been during the Cold War when both camps were seriously researching some completely crackpot stuff - psychic powers, climatological warfare, African sorcerers... - and the current considerable tensions nevermind the, uh, history of mutual sneaky sniping at the other between Iran and the US, not really.

Or rather, just because they're being paranoid doesn't mean there wasn't actual reason to. Although I'd think there wasn't in this particular case; I've too low (or alternatively too high, depengin on the POW) an opinion on the spooks and their bosses on the US side to credit them with coming up with something this bleh.

It's not like you needed governement backing to come up with crude, tasteless, infantile and likely quite offensive testosterone fantasies. :dizzy2:

[Boyar Son]

"K COSSACK advised me twice to skip the posts ,It seems I skipped this one"

Ok, maybe take a chance with a few

"I think this is what you're looking for.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493264/"

Yeah thats the movie... if I see them I'm gonna go karate on their ass...

[Redigo]

I think the minister's theory shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Western-style civil society, not to mention the movie business.

As for the former, private movie studios (indeed any private institution or industry) may at times ape the "official line" insofar as their product reflects popular concerns and attitudes -- witness James Bond's battles in the 80's with drug runners, or with crazed media moguls fifteen years later -- but that's a far cry from the command-and-control media that the theory here requires. Warner Brothers isn't a wing of the government.

Second, the lead time for a feature film is a couple years. I checked the "300" news page on RottenTomatoes.com (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/300/news.php) and the earliest reference is an interview with the director dating to November 2004. Given that a deal had to have been inked well before that date, we're talking about three years, give or take. To assert that the timing of the movie is suspicious just doesn't make sense.

Last, and I'm not particularly proud of this but it's something I've noticed just from my own experience since marrying into a partly Persian family...I'm pretty sure the majority of Americans think Iranians are arabs, and don't realize how fiercely proud of their Persian heritage Iranians can be.

[Watchman]

Bet you the majority of Americans think Berbers are Arabs too.

[Xtiaan72]

I'm pretty sure the majority of Americans think Iranians are arabs, and don't realize how fiercely proud of their Persian heritage Iranians can be.

Very true. Calling a Persian an Arab is not a good idea. Almost as bad as calling a Scot an Englishman. I did that once, I was lucky to get out of that bar in one piece!

[Watchman]

Nevermind Turks...

[Meneldil]

Well, I've seen the movie, and actually enjoyed it.
It was stupid, actors weren't that great, but it ranks quite high on the badass meter, and I love everything that is badass.

I understand why some people might have disliked or hated the movie. When you're not in that kind of stuff, it might looks really crappy I guess.

As for the controversy about Persians portrayed as sexually deranged weirdos, well, seriously, who the hell bother ?

If they replaced Spartans by Elves and Persians by Orcs, the movie would be just the same. And it's not as if different cultures were portrayed in weird ways in almost every movie.

The only thing that I would find disturbing is if people were actually believing that the Persian army consisted mainly of huge monsters, chinese ninjas and whatelse. As of yet, I've not encountered anyone who think this movie is accurate.

[paullus]

precisely, that's the great thing: I have yet to hear ANYONE say this is, or even ask if it might be, historically accurate.

All I've been getting from people is "so was there anything right in that?" And personally, I'd much prefer that set-up to "so what are you gonna quibble over that was wrong in Gladiator?"

[Domitius Ulpianus]

precisely, that's the great thing: I have yet to hear ANYONE say this is, or even ask if it might be, historically accurate.

All I've been getting from people is "so was there anything right in that?" And personally, I'd much prefer that set-up to "so what are you gonna quibble over that was wrong in Gladiator?"


I'd say there is a little difference between movies like Gladiator or Alexander and a movie like 300. The first ones tried to make believe that was the "real" thing, they had pretensions of accuracy (failing miserably in my humble opinion). 300 didn't. That's why I hated those 2 but loved 300.

I don't care to watch a movie full of lies, as long as it is sincere about lying . :beam:

[Arkatreides]

I haven't seen 300 yet (not sure I will either - probably just wait for the DVD) but for a similar experience you can try this:

Mod your EDU to give the Spartiates Hoplitai 10 hit points, 50 armour, 20 attack each.

Start the game, get 5 units of Spartens, disband everything else and walk all the way to the end of them map.

It's fun ... for a while. :2thumbsup:

[keravnos]

This is a faery tale to end all faery tales. The fact that it is based on a true story doesn't make it any less fantasy.

@ Kambiz, I understand your reactions, so I have no ill will towards you. Allow me however to properly state mine...

I have said in a previous thread to this one the following...


I am not going to go into Cata Rhinos' or bodypierced Xerxes. It is a faery tale. Just one thing. The Achaimenid Persia and Pahlavi/Sassanid Persia which succeeded it weren't the "evil empire" some have proclaimed it to be. It was a very organized, civilized realm which produced beautiful art, great works of literature *most of which were lost in the Arab conquest, and one which I believe reached the splendor of Rome, even surpassed it in some areas. Trade, horsemanship, monetary stability and exploration, most assuredly.

Other than that, I had assumed that it was a US "Join the Marines" kind of film... When I saw it, I had liked it so damn much that I wrote ( my enthousiasm got the better of me, I admit...) "Where do I join up?", which is what I believe prompted your reaction. Again I respect it. But please allow me to justify my reaction. First of all, I don't consider this a recruitment film. If it is, it is damn well hidden. The good guys speak scottish/british english while the bad guys speak American English. I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT IN A US FLICK. EVER. All that talk of "Freedom not being free", well what would you expect them to say? What would they have said do you think?

Οther than that I have no regrets that I consider it a great screen translation of a great graphic novel. Without this kind of reference the whole film looks way out there. As in "tottaly WTF" film. Or the fact that it still has theatres packed here in Greece. Well, seems like a lot of people have read the graphic novel, aka comic, here in Greece.

I would like to thank my friend Persian Cataphract for defending me and my Country, and I would like to return the favour. I believe the work he has been doing on Pahlavi both themselves, as well as their role as Achaimenid Avengers', (most of which you will see in future versions) is nothing short of spectacular. Because it may someday remember a nation of who they STILL are. Because Persians of today aren't Arabs as they never have been. They are ACHAIMENIDS, they are PAHLAVAN, they are SASSANIDS. Great cavalry leaders and troopers, traders and seamen who reached from Volga to Zanzibar, and from Makedonia *Alexanders grandphater was a subject of Xerxes, to Pandya, northern India *lowest tip of the Indian penninsula. In all 3 of those eras which span 1100 years, we have been their most "reliable" foe. Through hard fought battles Greeks learnt to respect Persians and the opposite was true as well. Yet, it wasn't the Greeks who destroyed that civilization, burnt its libraries, destroyed its holy places, and even today leave their ancient heritage to rot.

A drunken prostitute, having dazzled the drunken Alexander (the great) with her charms is said to have caused the burning of Persepolis. Do you blame me for that? I have NO DESIGNS ON YOUR COUNTRY, WHATSOEVER. If you remember, your Pahlavi ancestors when they destroyed the Seleukids, DIDN'T burn their capital Seleukeia to the ground, or loot it, or hurt its inhabitants. Instead they built
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesiphon
in the opposite river bed, with both cities now under present day Baghdad.

What Persian Cataphract is doing is create a Pahlava every Persian can relate to, be proud of and consider its own. Yes it is in english, but that is an obstacle which can be easily surpassed. Anybody learns english as a second language and EB isn't so difficult, at least to play. For Persians who want to find out just who their ancestors were, and what they accomplished, I don't suppose there is a better way. This is interactive history, or what you can make out of it. You must be proud of what he (and the other EB Pahlavi members) are trying to accomplish.

I don't understand what you told him in Farsi, nor would I criticize it if I could.

I will speak of my own experiences here. When I joined up, it was primarily to help with the *then undone, Ancient Greek Voicemod. You can't believe the amount of criticism I heard, both in English and in Greek (and also in Greeklish= greek written with the latin alphabet), yet I did what I had to do, mainly because I consider the quest for historical authenticity as the most valid reason any of us should be here. The only criticism which had merit, was taken into account. In earnest Tiberius Nero excellent criticisms were taken in consideration by all the team and will be included in the next phase of the voicemod. Justme had some important data, on the way Makedonians pronounced certain vowels/consonants, which were different than their contemporary brethren the Greeks of south. (BERGINA and PHILIPPOS in south Greek could be spoken as FERGANA and VILIPPOS) in Makedonian Greek at the time of Alexander) Yet, it would be VERY difficult to establish the certain time when Makedonians started speaking like the rest of Greeks or the exact extent of that change, OR IF INDEED THEY DID, so this was left out. (sorry, Justme).

But to have theese 2 very valid points, I can't seem to count how many people considered what I and 95% of all scientists consider right, or to outright dismiss it, as Modern Greek sounds NOTHING like the Ancient Greek Voicemod. Yet I owe those 300, those Baktrians, those IndoGreeks. I owe them my yall(very best) in trying to reconstruct the language they spoke. Thus, no matter who, what, how, if I could do it, I would, and I did.

@Kambiz, I strongly suspect that Persian Cataphract is of the same mentality so far as getting the Pahlavi faction as correct as possible is concerned. I completely respect that. Also the fact that he defended me, much like the entire EB mod did when most people liked the ancient.gr voicemod but my fellow Greeks. Well, if you have played the Baktrian faction, you will see that it was worth it, at least from my end. If you have played the Pahlavi faction, I know it was worth it from yours.

Feel free to express your opinions as you want, but only respect your fellow members. And if you didn' like "300", and I don't blame you for it, use the Pahlavi on EB to get your righteous revenge. That's one of the things EB is here for.

Enjoy!

[Xtiaan72]

Yea! Everybody's friends again. Who would have thunk?

[kambiz]

Hello my friends;
keravnos ,dear mate ,I really enjoyed reading your post and thanks for your kind words both towards me and especially Iran's history.
Well, seems like a lot of people have read the graphic novel, aka comic, here in Greece.You're just guessing mate ,It can be also becuase the greeks enjoy watching their beloved Spartans to [As some very gentle westerners say] kick evil persians as** ! Even if we consider what you said "a lot of people have read the graphic novel" it is still the same ,Greeks highly welcome such a stuffs in the way that 300 "Broke 1st ,2nd and 3rd (And It is not wondering if it would have broke 4th and 5th) opening day" there. I thought greeks are informed people and as you said respect their ancient neighbour ,And that was why I was so inflamed ,caused me to post that thing. Sorry BTW.
A drunken prostitute, having dazzled the drunken Alexander (the great) with her charms is said to have caused the burning of Persepolis. Do you blame me for that?Of course not ,At least me (As someone who are a bit familiar with history) know well that Alexander (the wild) was not a greek and even the greeks did not support him really. Alexander put an end to Greece golden era (Not Iranians) and we don't see those scientic and philosefers in those innovations amongst the greeks anymore. But for majority of iranians ,Alexander the mecedone (!) came to iran with a greek army.
your Pahlavi ancestors when they destroyed the Seleukids, DIDN'T burn their capital Seleukeia to the ground, or loot it, or hurt its inhabitants.Of course they didn't. Thanks for remembrance.

About The Persian Cataphract ,As I said I respect him so mutch (As I respect all moders as well). What I said in "Finglish" to him ,I said in english as well and therefore is obvious. I just remind him the rules of friendship ,Becuase I expetct him (And all of my friends) to support myself in any conditions and at least do not try to guide me(Guide in their opinion ,treason in my point of view) in public. Don't you expect this of your frinds?
Feel free to express your opinions as you want, but only respect your fellow members. And if you didn' like "300", and I don't blame you for it, use the Pahlavi on EB to get your righteous revenge. That's one of the things EB is here for. lol I'm going to do this ,But I need to get revenge from a real greek not an AI. But I can't play online :P Don't ask why ;)

Thank you again everyone
-Kambiz

[Watchman]

Wouldn't that have to be with Pontos though ? Tenuous as their connection to the gone-and-buried Achaemenid empire is, it'd still seem a fair bit more valid than that of a bunch of recently reformed steppe raiders...~;)

[Vorian]

Of course not ,At least me (As someone who are a bit familiar with history) know well that Alexander (the wild) was not a greek and even the greeks did not support him really. Alexander put an end to Greece golden era (Not Iranians) and we don't see those scientic and philosefers in those innovations amongst the greeks anymore. But for majority of iranians ,Alexander the mecedone (!) came to iran with a greek army.

kambiz, the greek golden era was gone after the Peloponesian war. And of course most cities opposed Alexander, Greeks were never united at that age, they always opposed the stronger.

And Alexander was a Macedonian, so he was Greek. Get over it. You hold grudges for events that happened 2300 years ago. It would be the same if I would blame Iran cause Xerxes burned Athens. :wall:

[Watchman]

Weren't the "proper" (ie. peninsular city-state) Greeks of the time more than a bit leery of counting their northern more rural cousins - Epeirotes, Mecedonians, heck, probably even Thessalians if I know anything about how these things work... - as "real Greeks" rather than some semi-barbaroi rustics deserving the title only out of generous courtesy ? Given how strong the identity of and identification with one's own polis seems to have been, and how little they really had in common with their more agrarian and pastoral northern neighbours as way of life went, I wouldn't be surprised if the urbane Greeks regarded the latter as barely higher in pecking order than the assorted mountain savages barely able to walk on their hind legs such as Thracians and Illyrians...

[Boyar Son]

lol I'm going to do this ,But I need to get revenge from a real greek not an AI. But I can't play online :P Don't ask why ;)

Thank you again everyone
-Kambiz

Why not?, at least spare the Epirots!

[Krusader]

Weren't the "proper" (ie. peninsular city-state) Greeks of the time more than a bit leery of counting their northern more rural cousins - Epeirotes, Mecedonians, heck, probably even Thessalians if I know anything about how these things work... - as "real Greeks" rather than some semi-barbaroi rustics deserving the title only out of generous courtesy ? Given how strong the identity of and identification with one's own polis seems to have been, and how little they really had in common with their more agrarian and pastoral northern neighbours as way of life went, I wouldn't be surprised if the urbane Greeks regarded the latter as barely higher in pecking order than the assorted mountain savages barely able to walk on their hind legs such as Thracians and Illyrians...

My view is that Makedonians, Epeirotes (Molossians), Thessalians & southern Greeks were all Greeks if you look at the theories on Doric migrations. Maybe it was more like how today's Norwegians, Danes & Swedes view eachother. Bah, I get a headache of it all.

However, the southern Greeks did refer to Makedonians and it seems anything north of Delphi (or Thessaly) as barbarians or semi-barbarians (unsure about Thessalians) and the Makedonians probably spoke a form of Greek that was understandable (but difficult) to a southern Greek. Note, this is my interpretation.
However, many southern Greeks also did support Phillip II and Macedonian kings at least were allowed to partake in Olympics, where only Greeks were allowed. It seems the current political situations determined if a Macedonian was called barbarian or not.

Also remember that many Macedonians distrusted/disliked Alexander before he became king, because his mother was a Molossian/Epeirote woman who was a barbarian to some people's eyes (although her prominent position, worship of Dionysos and rumours might have had something to with it as well).

And I've also read somewhere, saying something like "Eumenes knew he could not achieve any higher title than satrap since his Macedonian troops distrusted him, because he was a southern Greek". Could be a modern author's view/interpretation though.

[Tiberius Nero]

Until someone gives me a plausible explanation of how a people with a) Greek names indigenous to the region and therefore not imported and b) Greek religion without a trace of other religion existing around, is not Greek, I will view the Macedonians as having been Greek or at the very least their ruling dynasty.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Ack! All we need now is to talk about Alexander's sexuality, aspirated plosives, overhand vs. underhand hoplite arguments, and Carthaginian baby eating, and then this would be the best thread evar!

[Boyar Son]

Carthaginian baby eating?

Who ate 'em? Alexander???

[Watchman]

Or one of his gay lovers ? ~;p

Eh, Tiberius, the point is not how you view them but rather how the contemporaries viewed them. And by what I know of Greek-Macedonian relations, that one very much followed the usual pattern you get when one group of people are 'obviously' much more sophisticated than their neighbouring cousins who speak a noticeably different dialect of the same root language and have different socioeconomic structures. Heck, until some very active and thorough "standardization" projects from above during the 1800s the inhabitants of different provinces and locales within any given European nation-state normally held such views about their fellow countrymen living in many cases no further away than the next city or valley...

And I've no doubt the Greek city-states had similar attitudes to each other, and Macedonians of different parts of the kingdom to each other (nevermind now that it included assorted Thracians and othe colourful fellows with distinct identities of their own), and let's not even get started on something as huge and diverse as Persia, and so on and so on and doubtless also had developed or adopted some sort of "trade language" super-dialect for inter-communal discourse as people now are wont to do for purely practical reasons.

[Tiberius Nero]

One thread to rule them all!

I know what you are saying, Watchman, it is just that in moddern times the only thing Macedonians have not yet been claimed to have been is Chinese.

[abou]

Saw it today; thought it was crap. Even divorcing myself from my amateur-classicist sensibilities and just viewing it as an action movie I still found it a poor film.

I want my money back.

[Vorian]

My view is that Makedonians, Epeirotes (Molossians), Thessalians & southern Greeks were all Greeks if you look at the theories on Doric migrations. Maybe it was more like how today's Norwegians, Danes & Swedes view eachother. Bah, I get a headache of it all.

However, the southern Greeks did refer to Makedonians and it seems anything north of Delphi (or Thessaly) as barbarians or semi-barbarians (unsure about Thessalians) and the Makedonians probably spoke a form of Greek that was understandable (but difficult) to a southern Greek. Note, this is my interpretation.
However, many southern Greeks also did support Phillip II and Macedonian kings at least were allowed to partake in Olympics, where only Greeks were allowed. It seems the current political situations determined if a Macedonian was called barbarian or not.

Also remember that many Macedonians distrusted/disliked Alexander before he became king, because his mother was a Molossian/Epeirote woman who was a barbarian to some people's eyes (although her prominent position, worship of Dionysos and rumours might have had something to with it as well).

And I've also read somewhere, saying something like "Eumenes knew he could not achieve any higher title than satrap since his Macedonian troops distrusted him, because he was a southern Greek". Could be a modern author's view/interpretation though.

Nice. This is as close to truth as you can get. Besides Macedonia's political system is exactly the same with the one Homer mentioned in his poems.

PS: This thread indeed changes subjects like a chameleon. Now let's talk about how barbaric Celts were in reality.:dizzy2: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Boyar Son]

Saw it today; thought it was crap. Even divorcing myself from my amateur-classicist sensibilities and just viewing it as an action movie I still found it a poor film.

I want my money back.

What?!?!?

I refuse to accept your opinion.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Now let's talk about how barbaric Celts were in reality.:dizzy2: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
:juggle2: They were quite advanced. Romans stole everything from them. :clown:

P.S. :juggle2: Why do classical hoplite hold their weapons overhand? Everyone knows they held them underarmed. Oh, they need corinthian helms too. :skull:

P.P.S. :juggle2: Where's the Segmenta armor in EB? :egypt:

[Boyar Son]

:juggle2: They were quite advanced. Romans stole everything from them. :clown:

P.S. :juggle2: Why do classical hoplite hold their weapons overhand? Everyone knows they held them underarmed. Oh, they need corinthian helms too. :skull:

P.P.S. :juggle2: Where's the Segmenta armor in EB? :egypt:

What?!?!?!

I refuse to accept your opinion.

Segmenta armor are there, you just need to look closer...

[Suraknar]

Or one of his gay lovers ? ~;p

... and so on and so on and doubtless also had developed or adopted some sort of "trade language" super-dialect for inter-communal discourse as people now are wont to do for purely practical reasons.

Well they did:



* Mycenaean Greek: the language of the Mycenaean civilization. It is recorded in the Linear B script on tablets dating from the15th or 14th century BC onwards.
* Classical Greek (also known as Ancient Greek): In its various dialects was the language of the Archaic and Classical periods of Greek civilization. It was widely known throughout the Roman empire. Classical Greek fell into disuse in western Europe in the Middle Ages, but remained officially in use in the Byzantine world, and was reintroduced to the rest of Europe with the Fall of Constantinople and Greek migration to Italy.
* Hellenistic Greek (also known as Koine Greek): The fusion of various ancient Greek dialects with Attic (the dialect of Athens) resulted in the creation of the first common Greek dialect, which became a lingua franca across the Mediterranean region. Koine Greek can be initially traced within the armies and conquered territories of Alexander the Great, but after the Hellenistic colonisation of the known world, it was spoken from Egypt to the fringes of India. After the Roman conquest of Greece, an unofficial diglossy of Greek and Latin was established in the city of Rome and Koine Greek became a first or second language in the Roman Empire. Through Koine Greek is also traced the origin of Christianity, as the Apostles used it to preach in Greece and the Greek-speaking world. It is also known as the Alexandrian dialect, Post-Classical Greek or even New Testament Greek (after its most famous work of literature).
* Medieval Greek: The continuation of Hellenistic Greek during medieval Greek history as the official and vernacular language of the Byzantine Empire, and continued to be used until, and after the fall of that Empire in the 15th century. Also known as Byzantine Greek.
* Modern Greek or Romeika: Stemming independently from Koine Greek, Modern Greek usages can be traced in the late Byzantine period (as early as 11th century).


Interesting Articles on this topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology


Albeit there is much controversy about Macedonians, I consider them as being Greek as well, I believe many people fall in to the misconception of them being something else due to the Historical record that has members of one city-state or region refer to another in something other than Greeks, and that does not only apply to Macedonians.

We are however forgeting that the concept of Nation-State as we are used to think about today, only came to be in the 17th Century, which also lead to nationalism later on in the 18th and 19th centuries onwards to today.

In my view Ancient Greece was a world in itself, a mini-world, inside the world as we know it, and as such the way Ancient Greeks viewed themselves in relation to their neigbors inside that mini-world, hellenistic world, differs from our perception of the world as we know it today and how we view various people of various regions on earth.

[Vorian]

:juggle2: They were quite advanced. Romans stole everything from them. :clown:

P.S. :juggle2: Why do classical hoplite hold their weapons overhand? Everyone knows they held them underarmed. Oh, they need corinthian helms too. :skull:

P.P.S. :juggle2: Where's the Segmenta armor in EB? :egypt:


:juggle2: Why are slingers so powerful?:laugh4:


How do we pronounce the Sweboz capital?

Why the Casse can't build ships?:beam: :laugh4:


PS: Suraknar excellent post:2thumbsup:

[aecp]

Time to get this thread back on track.




''It's encouraging to see that you can tap into this audience on a lower-budget film and have a huge upside. It's good for the business and it's good for the audience.''

It's certainly good for Frank Miller, who is already courting Warner Bros. with the prospect of a 300 sequel, the details of which he is keeping strictly under wraps for now. ''I'm not going to say more to you than I'd say to them, which is that I know what it is,'' he says. ''That's all they get to hear for free.''

I think this sounds like a very bad idea. What's the movie going to be about, Plataia? Or is Miller going to leave the Persian wars for this one? If so I hope he makes a movie called 400 about the battle of Sphakteria. It'll be great, instead of "then we'll fight in the shade" we'll get "the arrow would be worth a great deal if it could tell men of honor from the rest"

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Great, the story that has no sequel now has a sequel. Why? A "vision"? His craft? A message? No, it's money of course. ZERO other reason to make another movie about this now by the same guy except truckloads and truckloads of money. I thought this couldn't get much worse, but I was wrong. Anyone who has respect for Miller still at this point should seriously reconsider it if he does this.

[aecp]

Yeah, greedy retard sounds pretty apt.




NPR: […] Frank, what’s the state of the union?

FM: Well, I don’t really find myself worrying about the state of the union as I do the state of the home-front. It seems to me quite obvious that our country and the entire Western World is up against an existential foe that knows exactly what it wants … and we’re behaving like a collapsing empire. Mighty cultures are almost never conquered, they crumble from within. And frankly, I think that a lot of Americans are acting like spoiled brats because of everything that isn’t working out perfectly every time.

NPR: Um, and when you say we don’t know what we want, what’s the cause of that do you think?

FM: Well, I think part of that is how we’re educated. We’re constantly told all cultures are equal, and every belief system is as good as the next. And generally that America was to be known for its flaws rather than its virtues. When you think about what Americans accomplished, building these amazing cities, and all the good its done in the world, it’s kind of disheartening to hear so much hatred of America, not just from abroad, but internally.

NPR: A lot of people would say what America has done abroad has led to the doubts and even the hatred of its own citizens.

FM: Well, okay, then let’s finally talk about the enemy. For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we’re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built.

NPR: As you look at people around you, though, why do you think they’re so, as you would put it, self-absorbed, even whiny?

FM: Well, I’d say it’s for the same reason the Athenians and Romans were. We’ve got it a little good right now. Where I would fault President Bush the most, was that in the wake of 9/11, he motivated our military, but he didn’t call the nation into a state of war. He didn’t explain that this would take a communal effort against a common foe. So we’ve been kind of fighting a war on the side, and sitting off like a bunch of Romans complaining about it. Also, I think that George Bush has an uncanny knack of being someone people hate. I thought Clinton inspired more hatred than any President I had ever seen, but I’ve never seen anything like Bush-hatred. It’s completely mad.

NPR: And as you talk to people in the streets, the people you meet at work, socially, how do you explain this to them?

FM: Mainly in historical terms, mainly saying that the country that fought Okinawa and Iwo Jima is now spilling precious blood, but so little by comparison, it’s almost ridiculous. And the stakes are as high as they were then. Mostly I hear people say, ‘Why did we attack Iraq?’ for instance. Well, we’re taking on an idea. Nobody questions why after Pearl Harbor we attacked Nazi Germany. It was because we were taking on a form of global fascism, we’re doing the same thing now.

NPR: Well, they did declare war on us, but…

FM: Well, so did Iraq.

On a completely unrelated note, Frank Miller is currently writing a comic where Batman battles Al Qaeda.

[ByzanKing]

I loved it. As long as going in you realize it is based off a graphic novel and not historically accurate. I have read too many reviews from film critics bashing the movie because they don't feel it is accurate. It is just a fun movie.

[Sarcasm]

Holy shit aecp...I thought you were joking. It actually happened, and all I can say is "GAH".

[Boyar Son]

Batman fighting Al Queda?

Thats gonna be the coolest! imagine it....

[NeoSpartan]

Great, the story that has no sequel now has a sequel. Why? A "vision"? His craft? A message? No, it's money of course. ZERO other reason to make another movie about this now by the same guy except truckloads and truckloads of money. I thought this couldn't get much worse, but I was wrong. Anyone who has respect for Miller still at this point should seriously reconsider it if he does this.

dude I think the sequel is a fiction film about Leonidas comming back from Hell and fights with a MACHINE GUN!!!!! Its Miller's Hell and Back.


so chill out fellas....

[keravnos]

Great, the story that has no sequel now has a sequel. Why? A "vision"? His craft? A message? No, it's money of course. ZERO other reason to make another movie about this now by the same guy except truckloads and truckloads of money. I thought this couldn't get much worse, but I was wrong. Anyone who has respect for Miller still at this point should seriously reconsider it if he does this.

Agreed. One of the uniqueness of "300" was it standoffish nature, its uniqueness. I don't want this turning into "police academy vol XXIII". Infact, I refuse to ponder the possibility. If it happens, it may as well not, in my book.

[Krusader]

Agreed. One of the uniqueness of "300" was it standoffish nature, its uniqueness. I don't want this turning into "police academy vol XXIII". Infact, I refuse to ponder the possibility. If it happens, it may as well not, in my book.

300 VI: Assignment Persepolis?

Wonder what a sequel will be though...that LOTR guy leading Spartans at Plataea?

[The Persian Cataphract]

For that interview alone, Frank Miller deserves praise from everyone with a sane mind. I don't give a shit about how ignorant that old bastard is regarding the Iranian empires, but he hits things quite spot on with this quote:


FM: Well, okay, then let’s finally talk about the enemy. For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we’re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built.


Frank Miller rules. It takes a lot of clearvoyance and maturity to realize the foulness of political correctness, cultural and moral relativism. Frank Miller is clearly speaking about Islam, whether or not he is aware of it. There is no other popular cult in this world that otherwise could inspire people to do suicide bombings, turn enlightened societies into quagmires of backwardsness, something I can vouch for considering my Iranian origins. If Iranians were indeed offended by the portrayal of the Persians, consider this interview the key to forgiveness.

[Lysander13]

I enjoyed the movie. All i think is needed to enjoy this movie somewhat is the right frame of mind prior to seeing it. I.E. Considering its based on the comic book, Frank Miller movie,.etc..etc..So you pretty much know your getting anything but historical accuracy..I kind of see it as mindless fun...Seeing this movie is sort of like going to a strip club..You know it's a waste of money..Your not getting anything out of it except probably a little frustration...BUT..You leave with a smile nevertheless..

[paullus]

a sequel eh?

I gotta admit, that as I left the movie theater I was wondering if you could do a "sequel" of sorts: the march of the 10,000 for instance, or Sphakteria, as someone else mentioned. And I said earlier, and really truly believe it now, that I much prefer this sort of ancient movie to things like Alexander: it piques curiousity even better, but doesn't really leave the person feeling like they actually know stuff--Alexander never made my engineer friends curious about the ancient world! Now I get to talk about ancient history all the time, which is what I love, and its mostly because of that movie.

So bring on those goblin Karduchian archers, and shrink the 10,000 greeks down to 600 Spartan mercs (with a smattering of Kretan archers too, for good measure...), make it all ridiculous and absurdly cool, and I'll love it!

[Krusader]

My favourite movie (actually TV series) would be about following a band of Agrianians when they are on campaign with Alexander the Great from his campaigns in Greece till his death. A kinda Band of Brothers - Alexander version

Like storming hill forts in Baktria & Paropamisadai. Issus, Gaugamela, Hydaspes.


Or a mercenary in Hannibal's employ.

[MiniMe]

errrrh...
Could somebody, PLEASE, close this tread!
All these discussions are getting us nowhere!
It's up to people of US to discuss Frank Miller way of seing things.
It's up to iranians to discuss whether islam was the next best thing to their country or it wasn't.
As long as everybody here criticize his own nation different persons strange behavior, it's Ok. But this is not what's happening!

BTW, MiniMe hasn't anything against all these nice hollywood movies where all russians do is drink vodka and dance with bears. Actually, MiniMe Likes this stuff!
(went to drink his vodka and dance with bears)

One more thing: I've just seen that movie
a. Leonidas is portrayed as an idiot who went to die, leaving his own house full of hidden enemies and his beautiful wife all alone to be raped by some politician.
b. Xerxes is really sophisticated and wise fellow, looking like he does knows some things about small pleasantries of life =)

[Watchman]

Judging by that fragment of interview, Miller is even fuller of it than I thought. Wonder if the lions are hungry...? :rtwno:

[Suraknar]

Well, after reaing that Interview,

I am concluding that the man flunct his education. He is basically contradicting himself all the way.

I enjoyed the movie from an artistic point of view, but Historically it is heavily one-sided and quite ignorant.

[CrownOfSwords]

Loved the movie, despite the historical innaccuracies it was accurate with the agoge and that was all that mattered to me. I believe the harshness of the spartan training really gives insight to the US citizen. I mean it makes a person think "look how hard these people had to suffer and fight to insure their survival" and look at us we are nothing of the sort. And by the obvious comparison of Spartan/US and Persia/Iran

[Xtiaan72]

Finally saw it. I think it was childish and silly. It definately looks 'low budget' compared to something like 'Lord of the Rings'. You never get a feel for the terrain or the massive size of the Persian army. The portrayal of Persians as monsterous enslavers and Spartans as defenders of freedom is ridiculous. So is the idea of kicking your enemies into your own well to kill them. ( Boy that water is going to taste good in a day or two)

The actor who plays Leonidas was really good but he had nothing to work with. I put this movie on par with Conan the Barbarian or something like that. It's good to laugh at rather than with. If you haven't see it then save your money and wait for video.:thumbsdown:

[Boyar Son]

So is the idea of kicking your enemies into your own well to kill them. ( Boy that water is going to taste good in a day or two)



I looked it up, they actually threw the diplomats in a pit (so did the Atheninians I believe)

Where is this thred going, ( flame wars anyone?)

[Xtiaan72]

I stand corrected, I guess. It still looked like a well to me. It's not like they called it 'The pit of doom' or something like that.

[Suraknar]

Yes it was a pit.

On the other hand, the movie was almost intirelly (at 95%) shot on blue-screen and everything is Digital... CG.

The 5% that was filmed outside was the approach of the emisaries on horse back...that is it!

I agree the Leonidas actor was wonderfull.

@K Cossack

No I dont think we are heading for flame wars ;)

Not everyone "has" to like the movie, and its artistic style does not appeal to everyone either, it is good to get various views of it I think :)

[Boyar Son]

Also I looked up was the SPOILERS!! the wall of bodies END SPOILERS...

They didnt actually formed it into a wall but it did look something of it.

And I meant if anyone was up for some good ol' fasioned flame wars!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I looked it up, they actually threw the diplomats in a pit (so did the Atheninians I believe)
They actually greatly regretted killing the Persian ambassadors and made amends to the Persians later. The spartans were very careful to avoid breaking their religious customs and observances, unlike the Argives who were positively unscrupulous in the matter of religious observance.

[Kralizec]

that I much prefer this sort of ancient movie to things like Alexander:

Alexander could have been a lot better, but it was still worth watching IMO (maybe partially because I watched the director's cut version, wich didn't contain a specific kissing scene :clown: ), and it's definitely then say, Troy or indeed 300. The latter I haven't seen and I don't intend to.

[mAIOR]

Hell I wont compare this movie with troy! Troy was meant to be somewhat historically correct (appart from the sun rising in the north and all) this movie is clearly an exageration fantasy movie and intended that way... I'm gona watch it as soon as it premiers in Portugal.


Cheers...

[Tiberius Nero]

I saw it yesterday and found it pathetic. Also it has gone way over the top with propaganda in comparison to the graphic novel (also the Persian Troll, the Persian Blade Handed Giant, and the Horned Beast in Xerxes tent are classic WTF moments), which makes me think that heavy revision took place in order to make it even more screamingly pro-American and anti-Easterner (as if the average American has any idea about the diversity of the peoples "out east", hell half of the Persians were black). I watched it with a friend so we got a laugh of it commenting on it while it played, good thing I didn't see it on my own, I don't think I would have made it to the end.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Ok to spare some people that still have not seen the movie from potentially wasting their hard earned money here is a DISCLAIMER:

***WARNING the movie 300 is a FANTASY/ACTION movie based on a very violent and innacurate graphic novel (comic) based quite loosely on the events leading to the Thermopilae battle. All the characters are ficticious and any resemblance to reality is pure coincidence as it was totally unintended. Please avoid this movie if you are a fan(atic?) of historical accuracy or political correctness. Thanks***

[Pode]

Going back to the tangent about a possible sequel and all the angst that raised: I'm disappointed in you guys. Of course there's a sequel to Thermopylae, it's Salamis.
Miller's not physically capable of passing up the potential for the magnificent visuals: the burning of the acropolis seen from crowded refugee ships fleeing Athens, the sun rising behind the Persian fleet filling the horizon, the red of the sunset blending into blood-colored sea at the end of the day, the terror of the rowers as the prow of a trireme crashes in amongst them in the darkness, marine hoplites leaping from their ships to battle hand-to-hand aboard the enemy ships, etc.
The story has everything you could want in a comic book version of history: A rakish hero willing to break all the rules to protect his people, a calculating villaness who sacrifices her own ship to escape, a larger than life mega-villian undone by the scrappy underdogs, allies turning on each other but coming together at the last minute, and a massive body count to go along with the burning of a city and destruction of a fleet.
So that's my prediction. The sequel will be Salamis, whatever it's called, it'll be just as overdone, inaccurate, insulting, and silly, and I'm gonna be in line opening day 'cause it'll be a hell of a good time just like 300 is.

[Spoofa]

I think 300 was fantastic, sure there were a few farfetched things... (big ogre, rhino, mr.sissorhands etc...) but i think it was a fantastic MOVIE (NOT historical documentary) Now, i'm not saying i dislike historical accuracy in any way shape or form, actually i prefer it, but i think they did the combat very well, and the actors were amazing. I would reccomend it to anybody who is not extremely critical about an obvious historically inaccurate movie.


P.S. its a movie people....... its meant to entertain, Not saying historical accuracy cant, but it does the job, more then excellently imo.)

[Incongruous]

Finally saw it. I think it was childish and silly. It definately looks 'low budget' compared to something like 'Lord of the Rings'. You never get a feel for the terrain or the massive size of the Persian army. The portrayal of Persians as monsterous enslavers and Spartans as defenders of freedom is ridiculous. So is the idea of kicking your enemies into your own well to kill them. ( Boy that water is going to taste good in a day or two)

The actor who plays Leonidas was really good but he had nothing to work with. I put this movie on par with Conan the Barbarian or something like that. It's good to laugh at rather than with. If you haven't see it then save your money and wait for video.:thumbsdown:

Thats's it! It's a good laugh, perhaps an adrenaline rush and nothing else.

[Suraknar]

Thats's it! It's a good laugh, perhaps an adrenaline rush and nothing else.

In other words...entertainment :)

[Boyar Son]

In other words...entertainment :)

YES!! someone finnaly got it!!

[Watchman]

I don't see where that would keep it from having highly questionable attitudes and underlying messages.

[Suraknar]

I don't see where that would keep it from having highly questionable attitudes and underlying messages.


When one is thirsty for water, do they venture out in the desert?

By the same token, seeking History in the movies is not where one shall find the truth.

We go to the movies for entertainment, exageration, fantasy, to escape daily life routine.

If history and political correctness is what one wants, it is in the Library I suggest they go, open a book, read an encyclopedia, school, university etc.

Not in the movies.

Now if the movies have become our source for History, then we are in deep trouble methinks. And we should instead spend our reasoning and critisism evaluating the reprecautions of that trend, and find solutions as to how to address the situation, rather than critisising the artistic interpretation of what is suposed to be mere entertainment.

Many of the comments here is like,

"OMG, did you see how they dressed up that Thracian Gladiator in yeterday's games in the Coliseum? How indignat of them, how blatantly and politically incorect it is of them to slay a thracian for our entertainment dressed like that. What would all the Thracians think of Rome when they see their compatriots being slain pitifully dressed like that?"

Is it really the way we dressed the Thracian in the Games that is the problem or that we have Gladiatorial Games?

[Watchman]

These days popular culture like them moving pictures are, sadly, where altogether too many people derive their ideas from far too many things. Which would be a rather good reason to not make one that would pretty much get the stamp of approval from a certain Herr Doktor Goebbels.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

These days popular culture like them moving pictures are, sadly, where altogether too many people derive their ideas from far too many things.


/sigh Well then THAT is the problem, not the movie, not a song or an artist...the problem is we have renounced our duty to educate people with the right tools -mainly family and school- and now we want TV, Britney Spears or Frank Miller to tell our kids what's right or wrong !!! THAT is the problem, worry about education and trust me when I tell you 300 or any other movie will be the very least of your worries...

[Watchman]

The right-wingers and Republicans deny that being our duty anyway. And this kind of movie is also exactly their cup of tea as well. So where's that leave us ?

[Suraknar]

/sigh Well then THAT is the problem, not the movie, not a song or an artist...the problem is we have renounced our duty to educate people with the right tools -mainly family and school- and now we want TV, Britney Spears or Frank Miller to tell our kids what's right or wrong !!! THAT is the problem, worry about education and trust me when I tell you 300 or any other movie will be the very least of your worries...


Oh lala, tres bien dit mon ami! :2thumbsup:

Very nicelly said! :2thumbsup:

[Watchman]

That the soil of ignorance might be fertile for them hardly excuses the movie for trying to sow such dubious ideas, I would think.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The movie is great for uneducated folks, or maybe I should say folks uneducated about the topic. It's a lot like a movie set during the Renaissance with the actors using 1980's Valley girl speak, or brandishing samurai swords. Sure, it seems quite cool in action, but it breaks the suspension of disbelief. It is the same not just for props or language, but for believability that a character is who it is supposed to be. For example, if Leonidas rolled his eyes a lot, like oh my god, constantly, we wouldn't be happy. Or if Darius kept scratching his nuts, grody. The characters have to act the way the characters *should* act, or this disbelief that we willingly suspend (because we know it's a movie) breaks down and for a moment or possibly for every time you see that character again, you just won't "buy it". Sure, he could still be slicing off heads and stabbing mutants, and that might be cool, but if he is rolling his eyes still, the people actually paying attention will get that pained look on their faces like they just sat down in their theater seat and forgot they had smuggled in a 3 Musketeers bar in inside the back pocket of their jeans.

So, if the viewer is just going for maiming and blood, then maybe they can keep allowing these "breaks" to happen or maybe they don't realize the "breaks" are happening at all (maybe they had a fair amount of liquid refreshment before they went in, maybe they just are dull, maybe they truly don't care for anything except the violence). Now, in this movie, the characters do stay pretty true to what Miller is depicting them as, but if someone knows the least little bit about Darius, or about ancient Sparta, or about hoplite warfare, then there are a lot of things that are going to bug them. I just squirmed in my seat the whole time. Not necessarily because they have sticks up their butts and they just hate anyone who has a good time, but because they every time they see a nine foot tall Darius, they can't think about anything except "that dude is nine feet tall, plus Darius probably wore some type of fancy hat."

Anyone interested in the Greeks' own thoughts on what makes a story better or worse would find a lot worse to read than the first two sections of Aristotle's Poetics:
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/poetics.1.1.html
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/poetics.2.2.html

[Suraknar]

The movie is great for uneducated folks, or maybe I should say folks uneducated about the topic.

Teleklos Archelaou, I wonder what contemporaries of Homer said about the Illiad and Odessy...

Although I agree with much of what you said, I disagree on that first phrase. Because I consider myself educated on this topic, and I liked the movie nevertheless.

Why? Because it is that education on this topic that permits me to discern the Historical invalidity of it, and watch it purelly as entertainment.

Now, does an altruist feeling inside us cause some upseting revolt, at the thought that many of our fellow Humans that may not be as educated on the topic will simply accept what they see as fact? Yes it does!

Yet, my friend, judging, boycoting, attempting to censor the artistic choice of the creator to portray this movie as he immagined it, would go against his rights of expression as an individual.

Therefore, I think, instead of trying to discredit and prevent others from watching it, we should embrace this as an exemple of artistic expressionism, invite others to view it, and then, inform others of the real History behind it.

"Did you watch it? Did you like it? Good, were you aware of the real story behind it? Here it is!"

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, I didn't say the converse is always true (that educated folks will not like it), but I do think that proportionally it is (i.e., that people educated about the time/setting like it less as a percentage than people uneducated about the time/setting). But I can see how folks uneducated about the topic would not have (half of) the reservations I have with it (the historical problems), and that is logical. They might have those problems with the plot/characterizations, but I'm not so certain of that either. Anyway, them what liked it liked it, and them what didn't didn't. :grin:

[Watchman]

Now, does an altruist feeling inside us cause some upseting revolt, at the thought that many of our fellow Humans that may not be as educated on the topic will simply accept what they see as fact? Yes it does!

Yet, my friend, judging, boycoting, attempting to censor the artistic choice of the creator to portray this movie as he immagined it, would go against his rights of expression as an individual.

Therefore, I think, instead of trying to discredit and prevent others from watching it, we should embrace this as an exemple of artistic expressionism, invite others to view it, and then, inform others of the real History behind it.

"Did you watch it? Did you like it? Good, were you aware of the real story behind it? Here it is!"Given the rather considerable and obvious limitations being a single private citizen imposes on one's ability to inform and influence others, especially in comparision to a blockbuster movie designed for impressiveness and impact from the ground up, I have certain difficulties perceiving the above as little more than apologist hot air. It's nice rhetoric, certainly, but its contact point with the practical reality is quite nil.

And I see no reason to not discredit a piece of violent macho propaganda that greatly deserves it. That said, where'd you suddenly pull this censorship thing from ? I don't think anyone has even implied anything of the sort thus far.

[Boyar Son]

AH! but back to the topic! What did you think of the movie?

(no "It's wrong because it portrays people innacuratetly" or anything like that)

[Watchman]

Personally, I do not consider myself qualified to vote as I'm planning to avoid the damn thing like it was Ebola, smallpox and AIDS rolled together. I tend to worry about catching something (called populistis fascisticus in Pig Latin ~;p) from the mere trailers alone.

[Boyar Son]

I'm guessing that means "Fascist Popularity" WatchMan?

[Watchman]

What, do I look like I have a degree in Nonsense Fake Latin or something ? :clown: I was actually trying more for "fascistic populism", as it very much seems to fit the criteria.

Did you know, the Nazis actually did quite like both the Spartans and the Thermopylai story...? I sometimes wonder if Miller quite realizes what company this movie is putting him in...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Did you know, the Nazis actually did quite like both the Spartans and the Thermopylai story...? I sometimes wonder if Miller quite realizes what company this movie is putting him in...
Well, the Nazis liked Christian relics and stories about King Arthur and the Holy Grail. Doesn't mean that Christians are Nazis because they liked the same thing as Nazis.

P.S. Frank Miller is a jerk.

[Boyar Son]

Dont forget action creator too!

[Watchman]

What mainly bugs me about 300 is that it'd probably have received Goebbels' approval, albeit with some chastising about being too crude and obvious or something along those lines.

And, yeah, I think old man Miller lost his marbles in a spring cleaning within the last decade or so. Because all he's made after Ronin is crap, and now fascist crap to boot. And some wonk went and filmatized that particular example of sic transit gloria mundi. :thumbsdown:

[Boyar Son]

It's mainly the portrayal of the Persians thats bugging you?

Well keep in mind that they were not like that and you'l feel better.

[Watchman]

Nah. It's why the Persians - and for that matter, Spartans - are portrayed as they are that so pisses me off. The MTV-generation wannabe awesomeness doesn't particularly help of course, all the more so as I can do enough basic media analysis to understand why exactly the movie is so focused on oh-so-awesome impact on the audience.

[Boyar Son]

There was another movie bassed on this battle, maybe that one is more accurate though its old methinks.

[Suraknar]

Given the rather considerable and obvious limitations being a single private citizen imposes on one's ability to inform and influence others, especially in comparision to a blockbuster movie designed for impressiveness and impact from the ground up, I have certain difficulties perceiving the above as little more than apologist hot air. It's nice rhetoric, certainly, but its contact point with the practical reality is quite nil.

Watchman, first of all, this was a reply part of an exchange to Teleklos Archelaou, not you.

Please calm down and dont shoot left and right out of your anger anything that seems to go against your way of perceiving things. You are critisising people on the way they express themselves, your not adding anything to the discussion.

Do we have the right to express ourselves as we feel or do we have to follow your way of perception?

Take a break from this! Go outside see the sun, get laid, or drink something, whatever it is you like.

Second, you talk about yourself as a simple private citizen that is unable to do anything, yet another private citizen cought your attention and influenced you as shown in your signature.

You lament your laziness and then you take it out on people.

[Suraknar]

There was another movie bassed on this battle, maybe that one is more accurate though its old methinks.

Yes there is the original 60's "The 300 Spartans", which I really suggest everyone interested to watch, it exists on DVD.

[Boyar Son]

Uh oh.. here comes the flame wars

[Boyar Son]

Yes there is the original 60's "The 300 Spartans", which I really suggest everyone interested to watch, it exists on DVD.

have you seen it? is it good? has this talk of "300" have anything to do with this thread? my mind! nooo

[Watchman]

Watchman, first of all, this was a reply part of an exchange to Teleklos Archelaou, not you.

Please calm down and dont shoot left and right out of your anger anything that seems to go against your way of perceiving things. You are critisising people on the way they express themselves, your not adding anything to the discussion.

Do we have the right to express ourselves as we feel or do we have to follow your way of perception?

Take a break from this! Go outside see the sun, get laid, or drink something, whatever it is you like.

Second, you talk about yourself as a simple private citizen that is unable to do anything, yet another private citizen cought your attention and influenced you as shown in your signature.

You lament your laziness and then you take it out on people.
I would appreciate if you kept ad hominem fallacies out of this. I confronted your argument, not your person, and preferred you did the same.

Plus, it's about one AM here so going out into the sun is somewhat difficult at the moment. ~D

[Foot]

Watchman, first of all, this was a reply part of an exchange to Teleklos Archelaou, not you.

Please calm down and dont shoot left and right out of your anger anything that seems to go against your way of perceiving things. You are critisising people on the way they express themselves, your not adding anything to the discussion.

Do we have the right to express ourselves as we feel or do we have to follow your way of perception?

Take a break from this! Go outside see the sun, get laid, or drink something, whatever it is you like.

Second, you talk about yourself as a simple private citizen that is unable to do anything, yet another private citizen cought your attention and influenced you as shown in your signature.

You lament your laziness and then you take it out on people.

Hold on there. Watchman's opinion here is a legitimate criticism of modern society, particularly it is aimed at the naive, uncritically individualist conception of man and man's relation to society. Go read some Foucault on power relations and then come back and call him lazy.

That our modern conception of man-in-society is based upon a faulty ontology and psychology has been the focus on much political and social writings, particularly with reference to - I hate to say it - Nietzsche, whose insights are still important today.

Take a break! Pretend this isn't happening! Pretend that your own conception of yourself as an individual is continually running up against obstacles that seem to contradict the liberal inside you! Pretend that Nihilism isn't stalking our homes and hearts!

I'm not entirely sure how your request for watchman to "take a break" is any form of rebuttal or conducive to further discussion. His responses has hardly been heated nor angry.

Foot

[Suraknar]

Yes I seen it in my youth in the 70's, back then to me it looked as the new one looks to youngsters today.

but I bought the DVD as soon as it came out aswell, and wached it the day before I went to see the new one, I wanted to see the differences between the two.

And its like night and day, the original is much more historically accurate and coincidently fair for both sides.

Anyways I gave a brief description in the 300 poll thread.

[Boyar Son]

Yes I seen it in my youth in the 70's, back then to me it looked as the new one looks to youngsters today.

but I bought the DVD as soon as it came out aswell, and wached it the day before I went to see the new one, I wanted to see the differences between the two.

And its like night and day, the original is much more historically accurate and coincidently fair for both sides.

Anyways I gave a brief description in the 300 poll thread.

Well then I'll rent it and see, but I doubt it will beat the action in "300"

[Watchman]

His responses has hardly been heated nor angry.I'm willing to admit "snarky" if it gets me a lighter sentence though. :balloon2:

[Suraknar]

I'm willing to admit "snarky" if it gets me a lighter sentence though. :balloon2:

It is inconcequential.

Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Boyar Son]

Ok we made our points, nothing to get angry about. Lets just have fun with EB!

[Gazius]

Can I replace the audio from the battle speeches for the Kionon with this (http://throwthepersiandownthewell.ytmnd.com/)?

[RabbitDynamite]

Out of interest, does anyone else not think that the blatant, honest "not sticking to history" suff like armoured attack rhinos and monster men makes the film less subversive than it would be if it were edging closer to historical accuracy? At least this kind of stuff lets people know we have a stylish popcorn movie with a premise lifted from a historical event, as opposed to having the audience believe that 300 is an entirely accurate work of historical fiction, that the Greeks numbered 300 Spartans and no more and the Persians were evil, murderous ninjas? OK, some of us would like a somewhat educational film. But surely we should appreicate that the film is honest and open about it's lack of historical accuracy.

[Suraknar]

Well, I went with a friend that wanted to see it, so i watched it for a second time.

And Yes I agree with you RD, this time I was paying more attention to the dialogues and details that were overshadowed the first time by the choreography and action.

But I have to say, that when we saw the interior tent of Xerxes, with that goat, this time I heard people going "what the heck is that?" in the theater.

Most people do not consider this movie historical...they simply watch it for the entertainment.

And it does raise questions, many people after the movie were talking about it, and asking questions about the credulity of the immortals and all the mutant stuff we saw, people recognise it is fantasy.

Now not all of them go as far as going in to a library seeking to know more historically, but thus far this movie has permit me personally to introduce several people to real history :yes:

[RabbitDynamite]

Sort of like Harry Potter. Many people don't like them (I'm not crazy 'bout them myself) but you've got to appreciate them for the fact that they get kids actually reading actual books made of actual paper. But then again, we're discussing a movie on an internet forum for talking about a videogame, so who are we to discuss the noble quest for junior literacy? :sweatdrop:

[Wodeson]

I have to wonder about accusations of 'historical correctness' when Hetodotus isn't exactly a 'historically correct' historian anyway.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Herodotus was a collector of information and a recorder, he was not really a creator of narrative in the same way as Thukydides, who created a narrative so strict and varnished that it's impossible to check at all.

So we don't have any idea what actually happened. As to 300 Spartans it's more accurate, that's all.

[Redigo]

If you look hard enough for bias or an underhanded motive in just about anything, you're going to find it whether it's there or not. I had an otherwise-intelligent friend of mine say he was offended by 300 because the Spartans opposed to war were unpatriotic or in the pay of the Persians, which he somehow managed to construe as a pro-Bush, pro-Iraq War message. That, of course, is ridiculous.

[kambiz]

Excuse me ,Noob question ,But Spartans at Thermopylae used kind of phalanx formation or somthing else?

Thanks

[Watchman]

The old hoplite shieldwall phalanx, yes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If you look hard enough for bias or an underhanded motive in just about anything, you're going to find it whether it's there or not. I had an otherwise-intelligent friend of mine say he was offended by 300 because the Spartans opposed to war were unpatriotic or in the pay of the Persians, which he somehow managed to construe as a pro-Bush, pro-Iraq War message. That, of course, is ridiculous.

Oh I don't know, the rest of the film is fairly facist, isn't it? Miller is an unreformed hardline conservative, the 300 the comic pre-dates Iraq, it's probably a comment of Vietnam.

[kambiz]

The old hoplite shieldwall phalanxWasn't philip II of mecedon who first created phalanx formation?

[Boyar Son]

Wasn't philip II of mecedon who first created phalanx formation?

I think, the first phalanx formation was used way before the greco-persian wars. The history channel referenced the phalanx in early biblical times. Google it to see when.:2thumbsup:

EDIT: yup checked, and the erliest use is 2450 B.C. by the Sumerians.

[Watchman]

Wasn't philip II of mecedon who first created phalanx formation?That's the pike phalanx. Rather a different beast from the "universal" spearman shieldwall also used by the hoplites.

[kambiz]

That's the pike phalanx.Pike phalanx = Longer spears?

Thanks for the answers both Watchman & COSSACK :~)

[Watchman]

Longer twice over, actually. The standard Greek dory fighting-spear and comparable designs used the world over for God only knows how long topped at about 2.5 meters, the longest an infantryman can effectively manage one-handed. The maximum practical lenght for a pike is around six meters or a bit less, but obviously it requires two hands and thus precludes the use of anything larger than a small buckler for defense.

There's also some pretty major differences in the way shieldwalls and pike blocks fight, but let's not go into those here.

[mAIOR]

Watchman, the small buckler seems to have been more than enough ;) Now on a serious note, the smaller shields were really enough as the overall set of defense a Phalangite wore more than made up for this. They were only at real disadvantage while out of formation and under missile fire. If you know a thing or two about sword fighting, you won't be at disadvantage with a maller shield... quite the oposite actually...


Cheers...

[Watchman]

I did get some swordfighting instruction for a while as a hobby actually, but it was with Late Medieval/Renaissance longswords ie. two-handed and without shields...

Anyway, the Romans and Celts could tell you a thing or two about swords and big shields and how the two go together well enough. Wouldn't be the only ones either. And the kinds of small shields suited for "sword and buckler" fighting are AFAIK the types grasped by a central grip, not the ones held against the forearm by straps as the phalangites' were.

The phalangites' small bucklers may actually have been a bit superfluous, or more a backup measure for out-of-formation combat with sidearms, as the Medieval pikemen seem to have done right fine without, even those who in practice wore no armour at all.

[mAIOR]

If you studied Medieval swordsmanship you must've noticed that the shields worn by medieval knights and men at arms were smaller than the Roman and Greek counterparts. This was because their (roman etc...) shields were fit for fighting in packed formations with your friend next to you. The Medieval shield was not for that purpose. Also, straped shields were handy as it allows you to deflect blows much like with a sword and enables you to use both hands to pack that extra punch when needed... there were some medieval knights who fought with Great sword who used a similar sield.
Anyway, this is not the place to discuss this :p


Cheers...

[Will_YouFight_ForME]

What is all this talk about homoeroticism...there wasn't even any in the movie?

I saw the movie and thoroughly enjoyed it. Naturally, I first approached the movie from a historical perspective which led to several disappointments. Then after the movie was over my friend made a point that its narrated by the surviving Spartan and then I decided to view the movie from the mind of a Spartan child listening to the tale and imagining the story as it was portrayed on screen. I found that this was a very satisfying way of interpreting the dreamlike imagery and style, especially the color scheme. I also believe that approaching the movie this way helps people to deal with the supposed "racist" shadow it casts on the Persians. Remember : history always changes to suit the needs of the audience and to portray the Persians as literal monsters would have served the needs of the narrator of the story quite nicely.

In my opinion, the best part of the movie was Leonidas. When I look at action movies, I judge almost the entire movie by who the star is. I ask myself "is he a pop culture whore" and I check for gelled/spiked hair and whatnot. When I saw Leonidas, I fell in love. Look at that magnificent beard, that fantastic fantastic beard. *swoon* But during the last scene with him alive, when the camera is rotating about his head, the actor looks like he's straight off of a coin from antiquity. Priceless.


*claps*
:)

i love the movie, i agree with every point
except the beard..lol.

they should make more epics nowadays

[Eminos]

Sorry for hitting the send button twice.

[Eminos]

Just seen it. Bad mistake. I'm simply furious. There should be some sort of historical license for movie makers when they pick topics in this category. How many interesting subjects have they ruined know? How long does one have to wait until someone makes a film without worthless graphics, bad research etc. Simply unprofessional. The most annoying thing is that now I can grow old before someone pick this as topic for a movie since it's already been done. I swear that Hannibal is the next in line that gets totally f***ed up. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/gc/gc-wall.gif

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think it was a pretty good movie in terms of presentation etc. Plenty of fighting and action scenes. However, I don't think it was necessary to make the Persians evil mutants. Hurling one million realistic Persian soldiers against a Spartan hoplite shieldwall/phalanx would have been cool enough. Was it really necessary to have LOTR style Mumakil when a war elephant would have had the same effect? Did the Persian Immortals have to be zombies rather than cool, top-class human soldiers? I think they just took the fantasy element too far, if they had not then the whole thing would have been more immersive and believabe, which is a shame because the battle really did happen centuries ago at Thermopylae.

Still, it was on the whole a decent movie. Still waiting for something to match Gladiator though...

[MiniMe]

Anyway, I still wonder why it wasn't mentioned anywhere that Gorgo was not just Leonidas happy wife, but by some funny coincidence she also was his niece =)
(please, correct MiniMe if I'm wrong)
nice ancient lovestory =)

[Watchman]

Given the period it don't count for nuttin' unless she was his sister...

[Owen the Mighty]

This topic has spread to every Spartan-related game like a plague!

Personal advice for those who want to see this movie:

If you like stylized violence, mixed with almost film-noir cinematography, this movie might interest you.:beam:

If your like me, who has a background knowledge in ancient history, or is familiar with this time period, you'll get a good laugh out of this.:laugh4:

If you enjoy seeing movies with character/plot developement, and like to see a well-crafted story (Gladiator!!!), this movie is not for you. :thumbsdown:

Essentially, 300 is an "Ancient Actioner", so don't expect an Academy-Award winning film.

[mcantu]

Just seen it. Bad mistake. I'm simply furious. There should be some sort of historical license for movie makers when they pick topics in this category. How many interesting subjects have they ruined know? How long does one have to wait until someone makes a film without worthless graphics, bad research etc. Simply unprofessional. The most annoying thing is that now I can grow old before someone pick this as topic for a movie since it's already been done. I swear that Hannibal is the next in line that gets totally f***ed up. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/gc/gc-wall.gif

Well if you compare it to the comic on which it was based, it did a pretty good job of portraying its source accurately...

[Rottweiler]

So what's the negative fuss about it?

I rank this 2nd best "sword and sandal" film after the Conan the Barbarian. Btw, that fantasy movie got too a lot of heat from ever-bitching left wingers and liberals.

Very good popcorn entertainment based on comic and yet some people are pissed with it. Go figure.

[-Praetor-]

It`s a great and entertaining film.

I think it`s the best propaganda movie since "Alexander Nevsky" (1938).

Cheers!

[Birka Viking]

I just saw the film and it was a good action movie..LOL. Some monsters in the film remind me of those from The lords of the ring monsters LOL.

[swhunter]

Yes i agree i felt it was a werid experiment between
Lord of the rings with some giant chained up with bad teeth,
and Matrix.
Maybe King. leon. at times should stayed in his formation.
instead of doing some slowmo kills.
And what the heck was the guy with two saws for arms? :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
even my wife :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Was the Effects cool ? Well..yes of course or it wouldnt made
it.!! I even had to give my wife a history talk after the movie.
To expalin Darius wasnt a egyptian mad speedo nut.!
And what about the swimsuits the spartans had ...oooooooooo..
boy ! The girls loved that! a 6 pack with looks, thats why the the armour was gone off the chest.
Lets see that smooth chest! :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Now lets see a good movie with the sea battles and true spartans that faced incredable odds. Iam not greek, but if i were it surely made something lite
that they done. The best part i did like was the end with 10,000 spartans with 30,000 greeks. but of course without armour on the chest. ( for the girls or guys.)
:smash:
my 0.2.

[Watchman]

What do you mean, "this movie is so gay" ? :biker:

[Boyar Son]

What do you mean, "this movie is so gay" ? :biker:

Well if ur not well informed (and the movie clearly said they had wives and children) the almost naked guys could make u think they were!

[Watchman]

(and the movie clearly said they had wives and children)I don't see where that becomes a major obstacle.

In any case, oiled musclemen wearing what look like swimming trunks through a testosterone-leaking infantile narcissistic projection trip have a tendency to give the whole thing a campily homoerotic air.

[Spoofa]

What does sexuality matter?
If the Spartans were homosexual that wouldnt make me fear them any less, nor think less of them as a society, a man needs some love when far away from the women....

[Watchman]

I could probably care less about the Spartans, but it's unlikely.

I just find it puzzling such effort has been put into ripping off campy Village People aesthetics. :balloon2:

[Boyar Son]

I'll be scared of them...

But if I'm head of a roman army circa 116 A.D. and just happend to face the spartans back in time, I'll have SOOO many jokes on them.