View Full Version : Rant - Crusade desertions are annoying!
What the hell? How can I do a successful crusade if my army keeps deserting while walking to Jerusalem. Even if I don't stop to fight other battles and just use all my movement points to move closer on each turn, they still desert.
Am I supposed to move there first and only change my army to "crusaders" next to the target? :furious3:
_Aetius_
03-10-2007, 01:35
It is a major oversight from what i can see that crusades have next to no chance of reaching the holyland intact.
As England I joined the crusade to Antioch, my crusade launched from Caen and all of the units I started with had deserted by the time I reached the Holy Roman Empire.
How on earth am I supposed to go any faster? Even under perfect conditions I dont see how an army wouldnt desert over that distance, since it must take (wild guess and probably miles off) perhaps 25 turns? to reach Antioch from Caen.
By ship it would take me all around Spain, it'd take even longer to reach the same point where my army deserted.
The only successful crusades i've ever had is where I joined the crusade only a turn or 2 away from my target.
HoreTore
03-10-2007, 01:59
Nah, I launch a lot of crusades, and I've had perhaps one or two desertions, and that is because I went another way. It should take you about 6-7 turns tops from england to get there. Remember that you have to take the SHORTEST way there. That doesn't mean clicking your cursor at jerusalem and let the crusade wander whichever way they think is the quickest. It means that you have to be creative.
My usual route from england to jerusalem, is going to southern france, buying a cheap merc galley, sail over to italy, walk over it, jumping on a boat again, sailing to greece, walking over and jumping on a boat again. If I'm ahead of the other crusades, I take the trip through turkey to get some light cav and archers, if not I'll just sail directly to jerusalem. Gets you a good army, and you get there fast.
Also, remember not to have any agents in your crusade stack, they slow you down.
The biggest problem I see is that if you have a slower unit (like that wagon with the big cross, or any siege weapons), you move slower than the minimum allowed. This bit me once or twice until I realized that you must go with footsoldiers and cavalry *only* (except for mercs you pick up close to your destination).
The game seems to be concerned with bee-line distance gained too. I started losing men playing the sicilians because I was having a pain getting through the Constantinople area due to river crossings, and issues with obstructing neutral armies. Fortunately I had a fleet following along (so I could pull the army out of the land if suddenly someone else finished the crusade, to avert diplomacy problems while I transport my general home). So I loaded up the troops, and bypassed the constantinople area altogether. This allowed me to gain lots of traction in the bee-line sense, which stopped my desertions.
IMO, if you really want to be successful in a crusade, start the crusade near the Medeterranian, load them up on a powerful fleet, and sail them to their destination. Unlike land, water is easy to gain bee-line distance each turn, and slow units don't affect things. Only take the land route if you must, and realize that you may get caught in the Constantinople bottleneck (e.g. a neutral catholic faction's unit on the land crossings, which you can't even attack due to the don't-attack-catholics prohibition).
You need spies, but not in the crusade army. They need to move ahead first to scout out other armies. Since non-allied armies will stop you, this allows you to spot those armies and go around. They've got the right of it with the boats, but you still need to be careful with merc galleys too, as pirates will attack you and any enemy fleets in the eastern Med also. I've generally gone by boat, but the only Catholic factions I've played thus far are Spain and Venice, neither of which have the huge land mass of Europe to cross first, and I've already had a strong fleet in the Med to fight my way there if need be.
HoreTore
03-10-2007, 03:13
Well, look at the real-life crusader routes, and follow them.
They don't go by land to jerusalem, nor does it sail around spain...
_Aetius_
03-10-2007, 04:12
Well, look at the real-life crusader routes, and follow them.
They don't go by land to jerusalem, nor does it sail around spain...
It wouldnt of made much sense to march through France whom I was at war with and simply hire mercenary ships, my army would of been attacked repeatedly, the only route other than the land route was by sea around spain.
The Crusaders didnt all simply sail to the holyland, during the 1st Crusade for example the vast majority of the distance was covered by land, infact most of the armies only crossed over water when they reached Constantinople and had to cross the Bosphorus. Even the armies which crossed the Adriatic to reach the Balkans went through Constantinople then marched the length of Asia Minor, then down past Antioch and beyond.
During the 2nd Crusade the German army went through Hungary and crossed over again at Constantinople and marched through Asia Minor, also during the 3rd crusade Barbarossas army took the overland route through Hungary and Serbia and through the Byzantine empire.
The only major crusade (1st, 2nd, 3rd) to my knowledge that was launched against the holyland which focused entirely on taking the army there by sea was the armies of Richard the Lionheart and Phillip Augustus of France during the 3rd Crusade.
During later crusades to Egypt and Tunisia and even late invasions of Syria, often the only viable option was the sea route, which was arguably as hazardous as the land routes had been in the earlier crusades as even Richard the Lionheart found out when his fleet was forced to land at Cyprus after being caught in a violent storm.
I understand why the land route is near impossible on M2TW, the distance you can cover on foot is tiny each turn, by the time you reached the holyland by foot, chances are the situation has changed dramatically. The sea route isnt always possible though as i've demonstrated, England are therefore in a bad position to launch a crusade even though they are often given missions to crusade to the holyland.
HoreTore
03-10-2007, 04:34
France would have left your army alone, and you could have walked straight through. Catholic factions simply don't attack crusade stacks, as they get excommed if they do...
The Teacher
03-10-2007, 10:59
easy, take the shortest route there. so if you are english cross to france, walk down to the top of italy and hire merc boats to get you access to the adriatic sea, then sail them to the holy land.
in my experince never walk all the way overland to the target.
:)
I went on a crusade to jeruslem from london only 1 desert...(It was succesful)
may depend on the general leading I guess.
My first Crusade failed as I left Eng by boat. You can not sail around Spain. Next try was through france with 2 spies out front and moving to the empty ships left over from first try. It worked but after the Crusaders got off the ships all my "friends" tried to sink them. After taking the target and repairing the fleet. I found none of the sons could hold it. I had to return through the boot as the 4 sea wars in one turn had left me with 5 ships and about 5 sailors for each jest off of the toe of Italy. The pope did not like that! Crusade hero to excommunicated in 14 turns!!! SadCat :2cents:
Marius Dynamite
03-10-2007, 13:52
I never get desertions if I move straight towards the target from even as far as England to Jerusalem. Perhaps you are carrying Artillery, Priests or non-crusade units which are slowing you down and thus making them desert.
_Aetius_
03-10-2007, 14:21
France would have left your army alone, and you could have walked straight through. Catholic factions simply don't attack crusade stacks, as they get excommed if they do...
Since when does the AI care about excommunication?
AI factions get excommunicated left, right and centre, they clearly aren't bothered that much. I lose count of the number of times a faction gets excommunicated, then reconciled then immediately excommunicated again for doing the same things wrong it did last time. Besides for all you know the French were already excommunicated and wouldnt of cared anyway. :inquisitive:
Need_more_ammo
03-10-2007, 14:27
I had mass desertion after I went after Alexandria instead of heading directly toward Jerusalem. Then I loss Alexandria to the rebels, my naval fleet was destroyed by a superior Egyptian fleet :furious3:. My lone general is now on the run from Mongols :wall: .
HoreTore
03-10-2007, 14:42
Since when does the AI care about excommunication?
AI factions get excommunicated left, right and centre, they clearly aren't bothered that much. I lose count of the number of times a faction gets excommunicated, then reconciled then immediately excommunicated again for doing the same things wrong it did last time. Besides for all you know the French were already excommunicated and wouldnt of cared anyway. :inquisitive:
No, they don't care about excommunication much, HOWEVER, they DO care about attacking crusades. That is something they don't do. I've only seen it once, and it was germany attacking a danish crusade of 1 unit. Have a stack of crusaders, and they will leave you alone.
so whats this about minimum movment ? I have had the "great cross" before, got it as a crusader unit, so it will auto defect your units by slowing you down? and what about having catapulte, etc...in your army, will automatically desert your troops? guess I dotn understand.....also, does the generals piety, etc...have a factor to play in the calculations? and all of this is besides going as straight as you can,hehe....:dizzy2:
It doesn't matter how slow the troops are just that they're going as fast as they can in the right direction. Catapults and great cross aren't auto-deserters. You just have to head in as straight a line as you can. I've had successful crusades with both as scots - I just marched through europe then sailed from Italy direct to holy land.
Going the (most commonly) traditional crusader way through Hungary and the byzantine empire is NOT the fastest way to Holy land as constantinople is NE of, say jerusalem. So marching past Const. is heading AWAY from crusade target and means desertion (i.e at end of turn you are further in a straight line from jerusalem than before). You're better taking a boat (as long as you don't get sunk).
Kraggenmor
03-10-2007, 16:23
Catholic factions simply don't attack crusade stacks, as they get excommed if they do...
Unless they are already already excommed, in which case they most assuredly will.
Furious Mental
03-10-2007, 16:51
I've never seen a crusade army attacked by another Catholic faction, including an excommunicated faction, except when the crusade is against that faction. So I'd say with some confidence that crusading armies are considered sacrosanct by the AI.
And yeah, it doesn't make any difference what's in your army- I've had plenty of crusades with artillery and no desertions. However, agents do make a difference, so don't group any with your army. Once I put some priests and merchants in with a crusading army and after only 4 turns in which the army moved as far as it could directly towards the target a quarter of it up and left. So I reloaded the save four years earlier, left the agents out of the army and had no problems.
You have to move at least 20 units in a straight line towards the target or suffer a minimum of 3 desertions. Cav move 80, art I think move about 40, and that gets doubles by crusades so, it IS harder if you have seige stuff.
HoreTore
03-10-2007, 19:04
Do you, by any chance, know which file controlling this, Carl?
CamelGunner
03-10-2007, 19:08
Hmm, lots of good information here. What about the General's piety, chivalry, dread, etc. that Tezel posted earlier? Does that have any effect on troop desertions? I doubt it, but that was a good point..
I think mainly it is if your army is moving towards the target.
Not a whole lot of info in the FAQ about this.
it's in Descr_Campaign_db.
Piety, Dread/Chiv seem to have no effect.
Sorry for taking so long to get back but i've ben replying to vonsch in my BEAT testing thread for the last few hours.
I find that the best way to stop crusade desertion is to 'land hop' by travelling by boat all turn but always landing at the end of the turn.
That way you get the safety of land and the speed of boats
TevashSzat
03-11-2007, 02:32
The main thing to do is don't try to go on a crusade to the levant if you are Danes/English/Scots since you are just asking for frustrating desertions.
GuyofJerusalem
03-11-2007, 04:45
All Catholic factions should take Nicosia asap for chances of successful crusades everytime. Send your distant relatives there as soon as they are born, leaving only your very royal family to guard your estates.
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