Feudal Knights not worth training?

[Miracle]

Mailed Knights are faster, better disciplined, more available, and cheaper to retrain - for the cost of only 2 armor points and unbarded horses. For factions like France they remain useful as light cavalry in the High/Late eras.

Feudal Knights soon get outclassed by Order Knights and other "Charge 8" heavy cavalry anyway, so there's no point in building them.

[Razor1952]

Is that true that Mailed knights are faster?, I thought sergeants were faster but not Mailed compared to Feudal.

Of course given the choice I would take my Teutonics(order) over the feudals despite being a bit more expensive to buy but same for upkeep.

But knights are so powerful and useful versus infantry that unless I could field an all Teutonic(order) stack, then I would have to add Feudals. In practice the difference isn't that marked so I buy what ever I can of the best quality available.

Besides I think all the knights look cool and a stack with both types looks beautiful.

[Miracle]

Test it yourself - Mailed Knights are as fast as Mounted Sergeants.

Of course that would also mean Mounted Sergeants are nearly useless. Their combat abilities are pathetic compared to MK's and are only worth training in very desperate situations.

[Razor1952]

I presume the speed of a horse is related to the type of model used

eg. heavy horse or pony or barded horse.

How do you tell which is faster , is there a file which dictated the speed related to horse mount type?


Sorry a bit off topic, more a modding question I guess.

[econ21]

There's a discussion in the FAQ about which horses are fast: fast cavalry have it in the unit description; for slow cav, look at the model and see whether the horse is barded/armoured. The greater speed of mailed knights certainly makes them worth keeping around for factions without fast cavalry. I'd probably take some feudals as well though and save the mailed knights for combats where their speed was helpful.

Does anyone know the speed of generals' bodyguards? The greatest use of speed IMO is hunting down and catching fleeing enemy generals, but that would only be relevant for mailed knights if the generals are slow like feudals.

[sapi]

The problem with all this discussion about knights, of course, is that it ignores that stats are largely irrelevant.

It doesn't matter if you've got mounted sgts, mailed knights or even some breed of crusader knight - against infantry the vast majority of the damage is done on the charge and despite the values they all do pretty much the same in my experience.

[FactionHeir]

Bodyguards use barded horses in early period for christian factions, so as fast as feudals.
In late period, they use armoured mounts which are slower.
Eastern factions use armoured horses to begin with, but of a heavier armor type than the christian armoured horses (late bodyguards and gothic knights) similar to the byz cataphracts and are even slower.

Its kind of sad though because the mount type only influences speed, not the hardiness of the horse.
In my testing, armoured horses died just as quickly as non armoured horses if set to equal unit armor/defense level.

Which is why Norman knights are better than feudal knights -> faster speed

[R'as al Ghul]

Does anyone know the speed of generals' bodyguards?


How do you tell which is faster , is there a file which dictated the speed related to horse mount type?

All Cavalry mount types and their speeds are listed in my unit spreadsheets:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76702

:bow:

R'as

[dopp]

MTW started with feudal knights. I wonder why they decided to include mailed knights in M2TW.

[Husar]

Bodyguards use barded horses in early period for christian factions, so as fast as feudals. In late period, they use armoured mounts which are slower.
Not in my campaign.
They still use the old armour and barded horses when I go to discover the new world.

Concerning mailed knights and feudal knights, the mailed knights die faster in melee. The feudal knights can hold out longer, which can be useful if you have to use cavalry to take a city.

[sapi]

If you do need to use cav to take a city, come in from all three sides and meet in the middle.

The streets make for lovely cavalry charges

[econ21]

Bodyguards use barded horses in early period for christian factions, so as fast as feudals.
In late period, they use armoured mounts which are slower.
Eastern factions use armoured horses to begin with, but of a heavier armor type than the christian armoured horses (late bodyguards and gothic knights) similar to the byz cataphracts and are even slower.

My understanding (from R'as al Ghul's table and an earlier thread) is that there is no difference between barded and armoured mounts. There are just three mount speeds and bodyguards, feudals, cataphracts, gothics etc are all the same speed ("slow").

Mailed knights are faster ("normal") so would have a chance of running down fleeing generals.

Of course real fast cav would catch fleeing generals more reliably, but Western armies have limited opportunities for recruiting them.

[FactionHeir]

Well, then how would you explain that my barded bodyguard can always outrun a routing turkish bodyguard if they indeed have the same speed over a long distance when both started out as fresh?

Husar: I did not say it is linked to the new world in any sentence. I said late bodyguards, as those you get to see in your custom selection.

[econ21]

Well, then how would you explain that my barded bodyguard can always outrun a routing turkish bodyguard if they indeed have the same speed over a long distance when both started out as fresh?

I believe charging units are a smidgeon faster than routing ones, but you would indeed need a long distance to close the gap (I normally can't manage it).

Or do you believe there are more than 3 horse speed classes? Or that R'as al Ghul's assignment of barded and Turkish bodyguards to those classes are wrong? Either proposition is testable so we need not argue over it in the absence of new test evidence.

[Carl]

Their ARE 5 speed in the tabe Econ21.

Normal, (which is unbarded mounts, namely Heavy Hoprse and Ponies)

Fast, (Fast Ponies)

Slow (Armoured Mounts)

Very Slow (Camels)

Very, Very Slow (Elephants)

hope that clarifies matters.

[FactionHeir]

Afaik, eastern armoured mounts (which are different to armoured mounts) are slower than the barded mounts.

[R'as al Ghul]

I didn't do those speed tests myself. I don't remember who it was, just that it was fun to read. I took his test-results but the mount info is from the unit file. If his test results are correct than my table should also be.

I'll see if I can find the test thread.

[econ21]

Their ARE 5 speed in the tabe Econ21.


OK, but we are talking about barded vs armoured horses, not camels and elephants. In the last post, I did say 3 horse speed classes.

[econ21]

I'll see if I can find the test thread.

It's here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1401672&postcount=12

Dopp concludes cataphracts and barded horses are the same speed (slow).

[FactionHeir]

Me thinks there are 4. From observation only, not thorough testing.
Note Dopp did not directly compare cataphracts to barded but to heavy and fast ponies only.
He does conclude armoured is same as barded, but he didn't mention the eastern armoured which cataphracts are

[R'as al Ghul]

Here it is, made a search for "drinking buddies" :barrel:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=78190&highlight=drinking+buddies

cross-posting galore :dizzy2:

[HoreTore]

Well, those tests describes the speed when running.

It is entirely possible that the charging speed does not follow that table, and thus Hobilars for example can catch knights easier than mailed knights even if they have the same speed when running...

[Carl]

OK, but we are talking about barded vs armoured horses, not camels and elephants. In the last post, I did say 3 horse speed classes.


The first 3 are horse speeds Econ.

Armoured and barded are slower than Heavy Horse/Ponies, who are slower than Fast Ponies.

Maileds are Heavy Horse.

Fuedals are Barded/Armoured Horse.

[TevashSzat]

Horetore, I have thought that charging speed is related to your speed before the charge for cav so faster horses should be able to charge faster

[FactionHeir]

I'm pretty sure charging adds a percentage increase to run speed. I'm estimating around 30-40% extra.

No-one taking up my challenge for eastern armoured mounts btw?

[Razor1952]

A very illuminating discussion, it just shows you can play the game a lot and never notice things, like this.

So maybe Mailed knights should be slowed down? Or mounted seargeants sped up and weakened further? Or Feudal s increased charge bonus?

These are the staple diet of the game and should be right. I guess 1.2 might change this .

[FactionHeir]

Unlikely. But for my own purposes I made the sergeants, hobilars and scouts fast moving with a slight cost hike.

[HoreTore]

I'm pretty sure charging adds a percentage increase to run speed. I'm estimating around 30-40% extra.

Well, the thing is, we don't know it. Hell, we also thought that shields added to defense :laugh4:

I seem to remember that in MTW1, a unit had three speeds - walking, running and charging. 2 units could have the same speed when walking and running, but did not have to have the same speed when charging....

[Miracle]

I seem to remember that in MTW1, a unit had three speeds - walking, running and charging. 2 units could have the same speed when walking and running, but did not have to have the same speed when charging....
Correct - According to this (http://www.totalwar.org/strategy/twug/mtw/index.html) charging speed in MTW was 8-33% faster than running speed, depending on the unit.

[PrestigeX]

I definantly agree. I dont' ever train feudal knights because of one thing...DISCPLINE.
they always seem to charge whereever they want, beside mailed knights cost less, and i tend not to use calvary for anything but flanking

[TevashSzat]

welcome to the org prestige!

The discipline thing though isn't that much of a problem if you pay attention to what is happening and pull any units just randomly charging out. Also, they usually will randomly charge when the unit is relatively close to a target, so close that odds are you were going to attack that unit anyways

[Foz]

It also seems worth noting that armour upgrade levels can play into the decision of which to recruit. Mailed knights list 2, 3 for their upgrades, while feudal knights list 3, 4. Note though that if I'm recalling correctly, the first number listed is their starting level. The main point here, then, is that if you upgrade your knight-producing facility to have armor level 3, then your mailed knights should come out identical in armor class to your starting feudal knights... and the investment to make lvl 3 blacksmith building is not terribly much, all things considered. So provided you haven't yet reached blacksmith level 4, you can actually make the units have identical armor with little effort, which means you have only to consider that MKs will be cheaper, more disciplined, and faster, and at that point have no drawbacks at all compared to FKs. This seems especially important when you note that the armour 4 building requires "large_city" to be built, which turns out to be the top tier city/castle, i.e. huge city or citadel. It can often be a while til you have a citadel at your disposal, and that would be the earliest point you could think about upgrading to level 4 armor, which would finally get FKs back to having an armor edge on MKs. To contrast, fortresses (required for smith lvl 3) seem far easier to come by, which means a lot of the time you can get to the required armor level 3 to make the units have identical armor, and will probably be at that level for quite some time.

So, looks to me like another really solid reason to get those early blacksmith upgrades churned out. On a side note, I'm surprised I had never really stopped to consider their stats before, but I completely agree with the OP's assertion that FKs are decidedly not worth having. Given all the facts, it seems instead of upgrading things to get to FKs, we should be upgrading the blacksmith shop to make MKs better still. Eventually you can jump up for higher-than-FK level knights if you wish, but it's also probably possible to continue using mailed knights indefinitely - they have the huge advantage of being available everywhere you go, so retraining is quick and painless. That is one major disadvantage of better mounted units like English Knights for instance - once you stray from the place you made them, it's difficult to find a place teched up enough to retrain them. So it might be a really good idea to just use mailed knights forever - they have a lot going for them, and sticking with them means you're constantly able to retrain them, and you also dodge a significant portion of the castle tech tree, letting you focus building efforts on more important things than high level stables.