Can't missile units load BEFORE the enemy is in range?

[Omisan]

It's a bit silly that they wait until the enemy is in range to start the loading animation and then fire their first shot.

It makes sense with bows, but not with the other missile weapons as far as I know.

Because of this, the short ranged missiles units with slow reloading like catapults, ballistas and ribault miss an opportunity to fire at least one extra shot at approaching enemies.

There should be a button to manually do this or at least the AI should start loading when it detects incoming enemies soon to be in range.

[rosscoliosis]

Couldn't agree more.

[Forward Observer]

This issue has been brought up before, and I agree that it does not make a lot of sense.

All the artillery and siege weapons suffer from this problem too. Why would any commander have his cannons wait until the enemy is in range to just start the time consuming process of loading his pieces for a first shot.

Even if your missile units have just gone through the loading/cocking animation, if you assign them a new target, instead of simply turning and firing they will go through the whole loading animation all over again.

I wouldn't count on them fixing this in a patch, but let's hope they correct it in the next game. They will have to, if they go with Napoleonic warfare since firearms and artillery in particular will play such a pivotal role in the game.

Cheers

[Foz]

It's a bit silly that they wait until the enemy is in range to start the loading animation and then fire their first shot.

It makes sense with bows, but not with the other missile weapons as far as I know.

Because of this, the short ranged missiles units with slow reloading like catapults, ballistas and ribault miss an opportunity to fire at least one extra shot at approaching enemies.

There should be a button to manually do this or at least the AI should start loading when it detects incoming enemies soon to be in range.
You may be able to fix this with careful tweaking of unit ranges in the EDU and projectile velocity stats in descr_projectiles.txt. Basically what I have in mind is making the unit physically able to fire a shot out to what you want its max range to be by adjusting the projectile velocity, but then setting the range in the EDU to something longer than that by 10/20m or so. AFAIK none of the units currently work like that - instead, they artificially limit the range to something less than the velocity would actually allow the unit to fire. My thinking is that if a unit can actually be "in range" of archers without the archers actually being able to take the shot yet, it might trigger the archers to load, and then maintain readiness until they in fact can physically hit the target. There's no real evidence to support this happening though, it's just a hunch of mine based on what I've observed of the game.

[Lorenzo_H]

It's most annoying with Musketeers.

[Forward Observer]

Foz,

That's a good idea, and is possibly something that could also be addressed in a patch--that is if the developers were of a mind to fix it. Of course in might have some minor unwanted effects on balance, but I guess it is all relative.

Cheers

[Lusted]

That's if it works, i think the unit starts loading as soon as an enemy unit comes within the range specified in the edu, not the max range possible via the projectiles file.

[Foz]

That's if it works, i think the unit starts loading as soon as an enemy unit comes within the range specified in the edu, not the max range possible via the projectiles file.
That was the whole basis of my point. Currently velocities would allow for far longer shots than the EDU does - so if what you said is the case, then making the EDU numbers longer than physics would allow them to shoot might cause them to load before they can actually fire on the target. So it should work provided that the EDU number causes the loading, and not that it's just the first part of the firing animation. That may be a stretch of course, but it's worth a look, which I'll do when I get a chance.

[JCoyote]

That still won't address an enemy that isn't in line of fire yet but rounding a corner. On a siege we'd still have the enemy break down the gate and watch the Ribaults decide to load only after the enemy is charging them.

This should definitely be fixed, all missiles would be better as fire then reload. Not quite as accurate with bows, but it's not a stretch to imagine the archers moving with an arrow nocked and firing almost immediately anyway. The biggest problem would be making sure that the reloading time MUST be complete before another shot is fired. Otherwise, there be an exploit where someone fires, orders their guys to move, then orders them to fire again. So there should be some mechanic that forces a minimum time interval between shots. Currently, it looks like it's the entire process that does this, which is a poor compromise.

[Carl]

Can't be fixed in this game as i'm pretty sure the loading and firing animations are linked in some way, or even one complete animation. That means you've no way of allowing them to pre load as they have to fire as soon as they are loaded.

It would be nice though.

[pike master]

trebuchets fire right off the bat. i wonder why they do but not the others?

[Miracle]

All gunpowder troops deploy pre-loaded, which means the loading and firing animations are separate. That should make it relatively easy for CA to fix this bug, provided we complain enough.

[Foz]

What I described seemingly does not work. I just modified Yeoman to have 270 range in the EDU, while their 48 m/s arrows could travel at most 235m on level ground. While the enemy was between 270 and 235 meters away, the Yeoman suddenly perked up as if ready for combat, but did not load their weapons. Instead they waited until the enemy got to 235m and then loaded and fired all at once, as we've always been seeing them do. So it seems clear that the loading currently triggers when the unit begins its firing routine, and that definitely means we can't do anything about this except ask CA to change it.

[pike master]

i played a siege recently where a danish army attacked my citadel.

to make it short i had crossbowmen firing on a unit in my castle and when they retreated they kept firing at them. well i knew that crossbowmen will fire at a withdrawing target at a longer distance than they are supposed to but these guys kept firing at the unit til it had completely left the map:dizzy2:

rocket batteries shoot off pretty quick, and as i said trebuchets, musketeers and arqs seem to start shooting pretty quick. it wouldnt seem that it would be much of a problem for them to fix this.

[sapi]

Pity about that Foz - it was a good idea :(

[R'as al Ghul]

What I described seemingly does not work.

You could try a negative value for stat_fire_delay.
Iirc, Darth from TWC has used this value.
There's also a value called engagement_treshold, forgot where but it may be connected to this.

R'as

[Orda Khan]

.........And then maybe set about fixing the archer animation that sees them hold at full draw for an eternity

........Orda

[Foz]

You could try a negative value for stat_fire_delay.
Iirc, Darth from TWC has used this value.
There's also a value called engagement_treshold, forgot where but it may be connected to this.

R'as
Don't remember exactly when, but I tried to mod stat_fire_delay before, as well as changing the min time between attacks in archer's weapon lines. Neither one had any effect. I lined up various modified longbows (cloned a unit in the file and gave each different values for those 2 things) in an engagement, and they all fired many salvos in exact unison. For some reason the values seem to be ignored by the game. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened. The EDU is seemingly quirky about what you can actually modify successfully - it seems from most evidence I've seen that some stats in the file that have the default value end up not making any difference if you modify them. This has been spotted (by Carl IIRC) for skeleton compensation factors where any that are 1 make no difference when changed, but any non-1 can be successfully modified, and it appears to be the case as well with these two attributes. 25 is obviously default for min time between attacks, and I think every single unit has that value, so likely entirely unchangeable. 0 seems to be default for stat_fire_delay, and I only see crossbows having any other number, which likely means only they can be successfully affected by it.

As for Darth, I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but he changes things with no idea of what they are doing in-game. After all Darth was cited as the primary source that the armor upgrades were not working correctly, which as it turns out could not have been further from the truth, and I've read other things he's fiddled with that people openly admit we (Darth included) have no idea what they do for certain. I mean nothing against his work, but for matters such as this at least, it's quite far from being definitive. It's entirely possible Darth has modded these things and they're mostly doing nothing, but he just doesn't know it.


.........And then maybe set about fixing the archer animation that sees them hold at full draw for an eternityThis is probably a much more plausible solution to the problem since the animations appear to have a great deal of influence over this situation.

[holycow]

You may be able to fix this with careful tweaking of unit ranges in the EDU and projectile velocity stats in descr_projectiles.txt. Basically what I have in mind is making the unit physically able to fire a shot out to what you want its max range to be by adjusting the projectile velocity, but then setting the range in the EDU to something longer than that by 10/20m or so. AFAIK none of the units currently work like that - instead, they artificially limit the range to something less than the velocity would actually allow the unit to fire. My thinking is that if a unit can actually be "in range" of archers without the archers actually being able to take the shot yet, it might trigger the archers to load, and then maintain readiness until they in fact can physically hit the target. There's no real evidence to support this happening though, it's just a hunch of mine based on what I've observed of the game.

I've tried it before and it doesn't work, you can set the range of your units beyond the projectile range - you need to figure it out from projectile velocity. the unit will see enemy as w/in range and you'll get a green bow. the unit card will cycle through loading, firing, and reloading, but in fact the unit is not. it stands there until the enemy unit is w/in range of projectile. the only thing i've found to work is to extend the range of both units and projectile in order to get more than a few shots off at enemy before it closes in on your main line.

i posted this before, i think units walk/run way too fast and i can't see how to mod unit speed. has anyone tested exactly how fast units walk/run? the original post talks about archers, but this issue is worse w/ cannons where you only get 1-2 shots off before main lines close and it makes cannons almost useless on campaign battlemap.

[R'as al Ghul]

Don't remember exactly when, but I tried to mod stat_fire_delay before, as well as changing the min time between attacks in archer's weapon lines. Neither one had any effect.[...] 0 seems to be default for stat_fire_delay, and I only see crossbows having any other number, which likely means only they can be successfully affected by it.

Ah, well. I was just thinking out loud.


As for Darth, I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but he changes things with no idea of what they are doing in-game. [...]

When I said Darth used it, I meant just that and nothing else. I'm far from worshipping him and I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Let's not go into this any further, though. It'd be unfair to talk about someone who isn't here.

[FactionHeir]

fire_delay I think is mainly seen for crossbows which consistently have 16 there.
After lowering that value, I noticed I no longer had the problem with withdrawing crossbows from battle. They used to just start reloading again and firing an empty volley before they decided to move from the spot.

Also, whoever said that gunpowder units are fast to reload and fire, I would like to point out that even crossbows fire faster than those guys who seem to be standing idle for a long time between shots or even after reloading.

As far as I know, its not possible to reload before firing, as even if you did, your units would then fire empty (usually happens when enemy runs out of range and your units started the reload cycle) Of course this is chance based as sometimes they will stop and at other times they actually let loose the ammunition.