Log in

View Full Version : Two Worlds in Germany



Crazed Rabbit
03-20-2007, 02:51
From http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,467360,00.html

A Parallel Muslim Universe

By Andrea Brandt and Cordula Meyer

Germany's Muslim population is becoming more religious and more conservative. Islamic associations are fostering the trend, particularly through their work with the young -- accelerating the drift towards a parallel Muslim society.

A member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community in Berlin.
It's the silence that visitors notice first. No children's laughter, no chatter, no pop music. A Protestant minister familiar with the noise level in children's homes describes the atmosphere as "very spooky." This Friday, at the end of Ramadan, it is especially hushed in the green house on Hochfeldstrasse in Duisburg, a city near Düsseldorf. Quietly, the boys remove their jackets from the cloakroom's numbered hooks - many are heading home for the holiday. The blankets are meticulously folded in the dormitories. Toys and posters are nowhere to be seen.

Run by the Association of Islamic Cultural Centers, known by its German acronym VIKZ, the home houses 38 Muslim adolescents between the ages of 12 and 19. They attend state schools in the morning, but otherwise live and learn in the green house. They get help with their homework between 3 and 6 in the afternoon and eat supper at 7. The rest of the day, according to the timetable, they are free to do what they want. Their parents contribute 150 euros a month; the rest is financed by donations.

The residents are not typical of children raised in institutional settings who often come from dysfunctional backgrounds. Most of these boarders are growing up in intact family units. Officially they are here first and foremost to improve their performance at school. "The VIKZ homes improve their educational prospects," says the organization's legal counsel, Ersoy Sam, "and hence their prospects of leading successful lives in Germany."

Nonetheless, German academics and youth experts have warned that this type of group is widening the gulf between Muslims and the rest of society.

Significant increase in fundamentalism

Surveys in the country have charted a significant increase in fundamentalist attitudes, particularly among younger Muslims. The experiences of Ekin Deligöz, a member of the German parliament representing the Green Party, underscore the potential dangers. Having called on Muslim women to remove their headscarves, Deligöz faced death threats and now receives police protection.

Disturbing as this trend may be, it cannot be pinned exclusively on Muslim groups. Under the guise of religious tolerance, German society stood blithely by as some parts of its Muslim communities began turning into parallel societies. For years, the country's courts have been excusing Muslim girls from coed swimming lessons and class outings - citing the most absurd reasons for their rulings.

However, the example of the VIKZ highlights the difficulties of penetrating the wall of silence that surrounds these Islamic institutions. The VIKZ has a lot of clout among Muslims in Germany. Some 300 mosque communities count themselves as members. It is the third-largest Muslim organization in the country, representing more people than the Central Council of Muslims. In public, the association's officials are eminently friendly and impeccably dressed, often in stylish pinstriped suits. "Only German-speaking teachers are employed in the group's homes," emphasizes Sam. The majority are of German stock, he claims, adding that the homes "are keyed to encouraging intercultural skills and success at school, not religious education."

The Duisburg home is viewed as the association's showpiece. In addition to a theologian and teacher of Turkish origin, its payroll includes one German, Holger Kellner, who was assigned by the employment office; a second German is now being sought. Meetings with non-Muslim children are being arranged, starting with occasional weekend soccer tournaments against teams from the local Social Democratic Party's youth division. Officials at VIKZ argue that this involves more contact with Germans than when the pupils lived with their families.

Yet skepticism is justified. Employing German-speaking teachers is a statutory requirement. And, in practice, pupils often have no time for leisure activities with their non-Muslim peers. One 17-year-old high school student explains that he used to train at a local sports club, but since taking up residence two years ago, sports no longer fit into his daily schedule. Now his friends are "almost all Turkish."

"Enormous pleasure"

When the issue of free time is mentioned, the responses of the association's legal counsel tend to be woolly: "Consistent progress has been made toward fostering contacts with members of other youth organizations."

Critics, such as Reverend Rafael Nikodemus, the Islamic Delegate of the Protestant churches in the Duisburg district, set little store in VIKZ's professed open-mindedness. Getting the representatives of VIKZ to work with local clubs and churches took "enormous pressure," says Nikodemus.

FROM THE MAGAZINE
Find out how you can reprint this DER SPIEGEL article in your publication.
University of Marburg professor and VIKZ expert Ursula Spuler-Stegemann is even more outspoken. The Islam expert was commissioned to review the association's institutions by the region's social services authority. "I failed to find a single home where there were no major misrepresentations," she concluded.

That is "definitely untrue," Sam retorts. While there might have been errors "now and then" - in clear contravention of instructions from the VIKZ executive - "there has certainly been no deception of the authorities or deliberate breaches of the law."

But in her 2004 report, Spuler-Stegemann presents detailed proof of her allegations. Despite assertions to the contrary, the homes were "almost exclusively devoted to Islamic teaching and practice of the faith," she wrote. They were "an unequivocal obstacle to integration." The pupils were "indoctrinated" into a "rigidly sharia-oriented" form of Islam and "immunized" against Christianity, the West and the German constitution. She described VIKZ as an elitist organization within Islam that made sure its pupils were trained to accept strict obedience and an even stricter segregation of the sexes.

VIKZ refutes these censures as "factually incorrect" and "biased." They represent a "blanket condemnation," says Sam, adding that his association had never been subject to surveillance by Germany's security agencies.

Observing the situation for years

Yet the regional government was so alarmed by the concerns that it halted approvals of new VIKZ homes. "The VIKZ officials are full of promises but end up doing whatever they want," says Hanspeter Pohl, who is responsible for children's and adolescents' homes in Hesse's social services department. Religious instruction took place "on a much larger scale" than was admitted, and children were regularly woken up in the middle of the night for prayers, he said.

Criticisms that the VIKZ is keen to challenge: "Prayer is voluntary; no child is ever coerced to join in." A junior-high school teacher from North Rhine-Westphalia, whose school is in the catchment area of an unofficial VIKZ home, has been observing the situation for years. She witnessed how the pupils suddenly adopted "extremely anti-Semitic and anti-American attitudes." English was seen as the enemy's language. "Today, some of them refuse to speak it at all, even if it means failing their exams." They reject the theory of evolution in biology lessons, the age of the Earth as discussed in geography, and anything remotely satirical in their German classes, she said.

The teacher made a further observation. When the boys in the home "had been reciting the Koran until 11 o'clock at night, as they did regularly," they were so sleep-deprived the next day that they simply dozed off during class. Sam rejects these complaints as well: "That is alien to the VIKZ's work, and the very opposite of its teaching practices." In some VIKZ homes, he claims, you can "even find books by the Jewish satirist Ephraim Kishon."

German Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble held an Islam conference last September.
However, evidence abounds that VIKZ is acting outside the law. In May, according to the Rhineland's youth services department, association members had opened a weekend and holiday camp - without obtaining permission. In Wuppertal, the authorities closed another home in 2004. According to Stefan Kühn, the director of the city's social services department, some 30 children, including many elementary school pupils, had been living next door to a mosque there - again without the requisite approval. Sam does not dispute these allegations, but maintains they were isolated cases resulting from "miscommunications and misunderstandings." "All of the associations show a keen interest in youth training. Any groups that can key into the young can secure their futures," says Herbert Müller, head of the Islamist Competency Group at Baden-Württemberg's office for national security. "The associations claim to be spearheading the integration of these adolescents into society but - in reality - they mean the various Muslim communities." Milli Goerues is just one example. The group, which the authorities have under surveillance, runs summer camps for some 30,000 Muslim youngsters, according to its own figures. And the Islamic Community of Germany - which is also considered an Islamist organization - devotes much of its work to young people, above all adolescents of Arab origin.

Islam was stigmatized

According to Faruk Süen, director of the Center for Turkish Studies, the boys and girls are increasingly defining themselves by reference to their faith. In his view, this is another consequence of 9/11. After the terror attacks, Islam was stigmatized by the world at large, he explains, sparking a counterreaction among Muslims. In 2000 Süen's center conducted a survey. The results showed that 8 percent of immigrants of Turkish extraction said they were "very religious." In 2005, the figure had climbed to 28 percent.

The survey's findings on headscarves are also striking. While only 27 percent had thought Muslim women should cover their hair in 2000, the number had almost doubled to 47 percent five years later. A similar pattern emerged on the topics of dual-sex sports classes and participation in coeducational school trips. Rejected by 19 percent in 2000, by last year the proportion had risen to 30 percent.

Women and young men are startlingly conservative: 59 percent of 18- to 30-yearolds favored Muslim women wearing headscarves, as did almost 62 percent of female respondents. Members of mosque associations took particularly orthodox positions, including - and above all - the VIKZ members.

Ironically, German judges have often proved the staunchest supporters of Muslim parents. Time and again they have ruled the parents' religious freedom paramount - ignoring the rights of girls to join in normal school activities.

In 1993, for example, a federal court found that physical education was not mandatory for a 13-year-old Turkish girl if the classes were not segregated by gender. Even then, the arguments submitted by Bremen's board of education testified to the exasperation they felt in their efforts to promote integration. The Bremen officials stated that they had already allowed girls to play sports with their heads covered. Allowing further, religious exceptions, they argued, might well jeopardize class trips, sex education classes, theater visits and other extracurricular activities. It was therefore crucial "to apply the existing regulations on school attendance... otherwise the teaching at schools with a high percentage of foreigners would disintegrate completely."

Their words fell on deaf ears. Enforced participation represented an infringement of religious freedom, the judges decided; the school either had to offer single-sex classes or grant the female students a special dispensation, the Supreme Court ruled.

Fear of losing her headscarf

In the following years, the German courts stuck to their guns. In another regional case, the judges had to decide whether a class excursion was mandatory for a Muslim girl. In their ruling of 2002, they parroted the language of a fatwa issued two years previously. The former chairman of the Islamic Religious Community in Hesse had stipulated that a Muslim woman not accompanied by a mahram, a male blood relative, must not stray more than 50 miles from her home - because this is the distance a caravan of camels can travel in 24 hours.

Camels are something of an anomaly on the German autobahn these days. Sympathetic judges nonetheless recommended sending the 15-year-old brother along as a mahram. Given her fear of losing her headscarf or violating other religious laws, the schoolgirl's condition, they argued, was comparable to that of a "partially mentally handicapped person." She therefore needed somebody to accompany her; otherwise, she should not be forced to take part in the trip, they reasoned.

Today the impact of Islamist indoctrination is noticeable at almost all schools with a high proportion of Muslim pupils. Although a few courts have reevaluated their position in the meantime and ruled in favor of compulsory school attendance - as, for example, in Hamburg during 2005 - teachers are complaining that fewer and fewer Muslim pupils are taking part in swimming, sports in general, or school trips. In Hamburg, according to the teachers' association, this was true of almost half of Muslim girls in 2004.

On the Muslim-Markt ("Muslim Market") website run by brothers Yavuz and Güerhan Özoguz, parents can download a form for exemption from swimming lessons and find links to key court rulings. In Berlin in 2001, the Islamic Federation, which is believed to be influenced by the Islamist group Milli Goerues, petitioned for the right to give religious instruction in its own institutions - and now teaches some 4,000 pupils. Marion Berning, principal of Berlin's Rixdorf Elementary School, was dismayed by the change in the children: "The girls hardly said a word and kept their eyes cast downward; the boys were rambunctious."

Distracted pupils during Ramadan

A teacher at Richard Elementary in the same district gave disturbing evidence last year to the school committee: German children "weren't really being tolerated," and "Christian" was often used as a term of contempt. The teachers were doing their best to set things straight during class "but, sadly, with very little success," she said.

School is one of the few places where young Muslims come into contact with the non-Islamic environment. As a result, the teachers often see what is happening most clearly. Dietmar Pagel, principal of the Hector-Peterson High School in the Kreuzberg district of Berlin, actively seeks dialog with his students. But with increasing frequency, he and his colleagues feel they are banging their heads against a brick wall. "Lots of our adolescents have a fundamentalist outlook on life," he says. Many more girls are wearing headscarves, and almost all the Muslim students fasted during the major Islamic holidays, with catastrophic consequences for their performance at school. "The further we get into Ramadan, the more distracted the pupils become."

He often feels let down by the politicians who discuss the problems of integration more passionately than ever, yet won't appoint the additional social workers and teachers he needs. But Pagel refuses to give up. After the caricatures of Mohammed were published, he attempted to debate the controversy with his pupils. But the discussion was hopelessly lopsided. The children contributed a few bits of factual information, the principal relates, but then "the room fell silent when it came to the moral dimension, so the teachers simply held forth on their own ideas."

He cannot get through to his pupils any more, Pagel complains. "If I say that headscarves are worn less in Turkey than here, they simply counter: 'That's why we came to Germany, so that we can openly practice our religion.'" And sometimes they simply remind him that - as a non-Muslim - he would be better off keeping such views to himself.

Seems to be the very opposite of integration to me. It would also seem to be necessary to reverse certain court rulings and halt this increasing isolation of Muslim youth from mainstream Germany.

Crazed Rabbit

Husar
03-20-2007, 12:34
After reading the whole article, I have to agree with you. If that is the state of many muslims here, we need to do something about it. I knew that there are some radicals here, but that thing about making their children extremist robots is pretty scary.:no:

Azi Tohak
03-20-2007, 16:43
I'm going to start a pool on how many posts it takes until one of the anti-Christians on the board brings up private Christian schools and how they're just like this private Moslem school.

I say 2 after mine.

Azi

Goofball
03-20-2007, 17:21
I'm going to start a pool on how many posts it takes until one of the anti-Christians on the board brings up private Christian schools and how they're just like this private Moslem school.

I say 2 after mine.

Azi

They don't have to; you just brought it up.

:juggle2:

As to the thread topic, I think Germany (particularly its judiciary) needs to give its head a shake here.

This is not multiculturalism.

This is building dangerous silos, and can only have disastrous results in the long run.

BDC
03-20-2007, 17:33
This always happens. People leave their country of origin, form a clustered community, and become more 'traditional' than anyone at home ever was. See the Amish and the lack of Amish in Europe where they originally sprung up.

Adrian II
03-20-2007, 18:45
We have the same issues in The Netherlands, with a slowly growing number of islamic schools (slowly because most Dutch muslim parents want their kids to go to regular public schools). I guess it is the same (http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc321.php) in the U.S. and other counties with freedom of religion plus huge latitude for religious schools. Maybe we need some new approach to religious education, but meanwhile we had better keep a check on curriculum of any such schools (and pull the Saudi or Pakistani rug from under a lot of them).

Seamus Fermanagh
03-20-2007, 20:18
(and pull the Saudi or Pakistani rug from under a lot of them).

Puns like this are evil.

Next you'll be suggesting that Christians paying for government schools through taxes while also funding their own children to go to a religious school is just another cross they have to bear.

Adrian II
03-20-2007, 21:21
Puns like this are evil.

Next you'll be suggesting that Christians paying for government schools through taxes while also funding their own children to go to a religious school is just another cross they have to bear.I mean that many such schools (Ahmadiyya and otherwise) are financed from abroad, Seamus. Wakey wakey...

Goofball
03-21-2007, 00:30
I mean that many such schools (Ahmadiyya and otherwise) are financed from abroad, Seamus. Wakey wakey...

I don't know who this "Ahmadiyya" broad is, but she must be pretty rich to be financing schools...

Watchman
03-21-2007, 01:01
This always happens. People leave their country of origin, form a clustered community, and become more 'traditional' than anyone at home ever was. See the Amish and the lack of Amish in Europe where they originally sprung up.Actually, our religious fringe just preferred to relocate overseas rather than get persecuted. Freedom of religion wasn't exactly the norm back then, as the round century of mass atrocity, general fanaticism and endemic at least quasi-religious warfare after the Reformation kind of makes obvious.

These seem to have mainly started getting more hardline only after 2001. I presume it won't be necessary for me to wring a model out of wire explaining why ?

Seamus Fermanagh
03-21-2007, 04:25
I mean that many such schools (Ahmadiyya and otherwise) are financed from abroad, Seamus. Wakey wakey...

I knew that...I was attempting a spot of humor, as in pulling their "prayer rugs" out from under these Islamic schools. I then counterpunned with the cross thing.

No serious issues were addressed in my previous post, though humor was harmed in the making of this one.

Crazed Rabbit
03-21-2007, 06:07
Actually, our religious fringe just preferred to relocate overseas rather than get persecuted. Freedom of religion wasn't exactly the norm back then, as the round century of mass atrocity, general fanaticism and endemic at least quasi-religious warfare after the Reformation kind of makes obvious.

These seem to have mainly started getting more hardline only after 2001. I presume it won't be necessary for me to wring a model out of wire explaining why ?

Must've been that harsh German backlash against Muslims. Heaven forbid, good sir, it might be through faults of their own!

CR

PanzerJaeger
03-21-2007, 10:00
Disgusting. It makes me sick to my stomach that this is tolerated in Germany.

Watchman
03-21-2007, 14:30
Must've been that harsh German backlash against Muslims. Heaven forbid, good sir, it might be through faults of their own!

CRYeah, they obviously just one day decided to go Fundamentalist Nutjob on their own just for the Heck of it. No external input involved, nosirree. Nothin' to do with a certain hardening of attitudes since 2001, move on now, nothing to see here.

Adrian II
03-21-2007, 15:09
I knew that...I was attempting a spot of humor, as in pulling their "prayer rugs" out from under these Islamic schools. I then counterpunned with the cross thing.A clear case of cross purposes, my friend.

On topic: no 'hardening' of attitudes could ever be an excuse to permit the spread of Islamic extremism in schools. Any school that preaches anti-semitism, anti-democratic thought and suppression of women should be closed regardless of religious background, period.

ezrider
03-21-2007, 15:48
Despite this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/27/wturk27.xml)
link I still see more than 60% of girls and women without a headscarf. My area is at least 70% Turkish/Arab. I have yet to see anyone wearing a face veil.

Bijo
03-21-2007, 16:00
You mean any school like that existing within a western society, I assume :)

Anyway, seems to me that if such schools would be closed down (or if there'd even be some form of opposition gainst lighter forms of these) some would claim those who oppose would be racists, or right extremists, or whatever they can be called... anti-Muslim or something. If they'd do that it doesn't really make sense, but people are easily influenced, and politics... oh boy.


Ah, whatever. I see two basic ways: good and evil (roughly said, but you can give them other names, harmony and discord or something, peace and conflict, whatever). And I classify Islamic extremists as evil, but I do so with other ways of living as well, including certain western ways.
My point is that most humans are still (too much) internally/personally led by the "way of nature", and unless they get rid of it there will be no harmony (or peace, etc.) within them and between them... Muslim or not, democratic or not, fascist or not, you name it. As humans they all share this basic inner cruelty, emotion, desires, etc., of nature, and some people are worse than others.

Adrian II
03-21-2007, 16:51
Despite this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/27/wturk27.xml)
link I still see more than 60% of girls and women without a headscarf. My area is at least 70% Turkish/Arab. I have yet to see anyone wearing a face veil.This is not about your area or about veils, it is about schools teaching hatred of democracy, of certain races or religions, even of 'enemy languages' like English. This mentality should not be taught in any curriculum whatsoever. There is no excuse for that. Close them.

Husar
03-21-2007, 17:17
Disgusting. It makes me sick to my stomach that this is tolerated in Germany.
I don't think it's tolerated, it just takes ages until something is done.
Which can be good in some cases, bad in others.


Despite this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/27/wturk27.xml)
link I still see more than 60% of girls and women without a headscarf. My area is at least 70% Turkish/Arab. I have yet to see anyone wearing a face veil.
Similar situation here, though I think the ratio of arabs is a bit lower, maybe 50%.

Now what I find especially interesting with regards to headscarves are women who wear them but otherwise dress very, erm, sexy, I mean, you can see the silhouette of a nice female body through a long black mantle or so. This always makes me wonder whether they wear that scarf because they want to or because they are being forced(and try to work around by showing their female curves).

BDC
03-21-2007, 17:23
Personally, I think a headscarf can make a woman look very sexy.

Kind of ironic really.

Ser Clegane
03-21-2007, 17:46
Just to "fan the flames" a bit (sorry - not enough time currently to add more to the discussion):

I consider myself to be very open to other cultures but this judge should get the boot. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473017,00.html)

BDC
03-21-2007, 17:56
Just to "fan the flames" a bit (sorry - not enough time currently to add more to the discussion):

I consider myself to be very open to other cultures but this judge should get the boot. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473017,00.html)
And he probably will. What an idiot.

English assassin
03-21-2007, 18:06
Just to "fan the flames" a bit (sorry - not enough time currently to add more to the discussion):

I consider myself to be very open to other cultures but this judge should get the boot. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473017,00.html)


Wow, UK judges not most bonkers in Europe shock.

As for the topic, (and as a member of the national secular society), an answer is clear: ban all teaching of any religion in schools. Its quite simple: you go to school to learn school subjects. That is all. At least they would get five days a week of mainstream information. Oh yeah, and no more being withdrawn from classes on religious grounds either.

Either that or we force mosques (and churches) to teach calculus during the sermon.

Also, sadly, it looks like we will have to include things like "it is not OK to beat your wife" in citizenship classes.

Mooks
03-21-2007, 19:56
Wow, UK judges not most bonkers in Europe shock.

As for the topic, (and as a member of the national secular society), an answer is clear: ban all teaching of any religion in schools. Its quite simple: you go to school to learn school subjects. That is all. At least they would get five days a week of mainstream information. Oh yeah, and no more being withdrawn from classes on religious grounds either.

Either that or we force mosques (and churches) to teach calculus during the sermon.

Also, sadly, it looks like we will have to include things like "it is not OK to beat your wife" in citizenship classes.


Even though im highly religios. I dont think religion should be taught in any schools in any shape/or form. Unless they are studieng that paticular religion. I wouldnt want islam shoved down my throat, so noone should have christrianity shoved down theirs.

Ser Clegane
03-21-2007, 20:04
And you know that things got slightly out of conttrol when a German judge shoves islam down a muslim's throat against his/her will and even is presumptuous enough to interpret the koran for them ~;)

Husar
03-21-2007, 20:40
Oh well, my trust in german courts is suffering here.:wall:

Why do I feel that a lot of this has to do with the judges just bowing in because they do not want to make any muslims angry? I don't know, but our whole attitude so far seems to be that we want to completely stay out of muslim affairs, even those in our own country, until there are enough extremists to start a civil war(which we most likely wouldn't even fight because our army would by that time be mostly abandoned, underfunded and not really trained anyway).:wall: I thought we had a constitution which rates human rights above religious freedom?

Ser Clegane
03-21-2007, 21:03
with the judges just bowing in because they do not want to make any muslims angry?
The silly thing is that this judge only believes that she is doing something "good" for muslims. At least in this case I am pretty sure that one of the two muslims that are affacted is angry anyway and I have my doubts that such a "judgement" pleases the majority of muslims in Germany.
This judge is trying to be "holier than the pope" (or in this case "more islamic than the muslims") and is making a complete fool of herself :no:

EDIT to add: Apart from that the judge nurtures the prejudice that muslim husbands like to beat up their wifes ... I guess muslims in Germany are really grateful for this "favor"

Tribesman
03-21-2007, 23:53
Also, sadly, it looks like we will have to include things like "it is not OK to beat your wife" in citizenship classes.

But that does away with religeous freedom :smash:
I was at a wedding in High Wycomb(sp?) a few years back , during the ceremony of this " christian" couple the preacher read out "the man shall not beat the woman without good reason" ~:eek: and you wouldn't believe the looks the devout "christians" gave me and a couple of others who couldn't help laughing at that crap .

Husar
03-22-2007, 00:59
Last Sunday we had someone talk about the role of women in the service/church and what the bible says about it. The way he interpreted it was that Jesus and Paul had a lot of female workers and paul even praised their good work. Now the places where paul tells them to shut up, he explained, have to be seen in the context that those women disturbed the service. Generally women are treated exactly like men. There was also the case of Jesus showing himself to the women first three days after his "death", which would be kind of weird if he thought of women as inferior in any way.

Well, that's just what I recently heard about it in church and it is no different from the view I had before.

Always makes me wonder what makes a man beat his woman, my views on marriage, love and women are completely different, I even love that heathen Tribesman because he seems more reasonable than some who call themselves christians.~:flirt:

Tribesman
03-22-2007, 01:26
I even love that heathen Tribesman because he seems more reasonable than some who call themselves christians.
What make you think that I am a heathen ?
Is it because I rip the :daisy: out of those who loudly call themselves "Christian" here?

Blodrast
03-22-2007, 04:42
What make you think that I am a heathen ?
Is it because I rip the piss out of those who loudly call themselves "Christian" here?

Tribesy, you rip the :daisy: out of everybody and their mother (all the time, too). That's why we love you, 'cause you don't discriminate. :yes:
And he probably meant atheist, not heathen. :laugh4: Although, he may have meant heathen, but in an affectionate way.

Husar
03-22-2007, 11:07
What make you think that I am a heathen ?
Your replies in religious threads.
But I used that word in a humorous way, just so you know.


Is it because I rip the :daisy: out of those who loudly call themselves "Christian" here?
I also love the way Banquo edits.:2thumbsup: :sweatdrop:
I call myself christian here but cannot remember any ripping or such a thing.
What I wanted to say is that just because I'M christian I do not support anyone who calls himself that and at times I prefer the opinion of an atheist.
And in your given example, I prefered your position than that of people who beat their women.
And I somehow like your style, you're lucky I didn't open a Tribesman-fanclub-thread yet.:sweatdrop: ~;)

But I think we're drifting off topic here, this was about evil muslim jihadists who want to take over my country and need to be stopped with the full force of the law.:whip: :policeman:

Tribesman
03-22-2007, 20:44
I call myself christian here but cannot remember any ripping or such a thing.

Ah but you don't call yourself a Christian loudly here do you .

Husar
03-22-2007, 22:50
Ah but you don't call yourself a Christian loudly here do you .
I'm getting louder and louder, especially in this thread.:sweatdrop:

Fragony
03-23-2007, 08:58
Isn't this where I get to do my told-you-so dance?

goes like this,

tooooooooold youuuuuuuu sooooooooooooooo :yes:

Kralizec
03-23-2007, 09:24
The silly thing is that this judge only believes that she is doing something "good" for muslims. At least in this case I am pretty sure that one of the two muslims that are affacted is angry anyway and I have my doubts that such a "judgement" pleases the majority of muslims in Germany.
This judge is trying to be "holier than the pope" (or in this case "more islamic than the muslims") and is making a complete fool of herself :no:

EDIT to add: Apart from that the judge nurtures the prejudice that muslim husbands like to beat up their wifes ... I guess muslims in Germany are really grateful for this "favor"

I just read about this in my newspaper. Holy poop - "if you marry someone in Morocco, you should expect to get beaten occasionally" :inquisitive:

Adrian II
03-23-2007, 09:50
I just read about this in my newspaper. Holy poop - "if you marry someone in Morocco, you should expect to get beaten occasionally" :inquisitive:I you are a stupid judge in Germany, you should expect to get sacked. Tarred and feathered. Chased out of town. On the back of a mule. Backwards. All the way to Morocco. Occasionally.

Fragony
03-23-2007, 09:58
Was a native judge I believe, probably wanted to be nominated for the most prestigious honor there is, the Dhimmi award. Is a new breed, knows exactly what muslims want before even they realise they want it themselves.

Husar
03-23-2007, 12:23
Was a native judge I believe, probably wanted to be nominated for the most prestigious honor there is, the Dhimmi award. Is a new breed, knows exactly what muslims want before even they realise they want it themselves.
I'm afraid of that new breed, but it could explain why some court rulings are very wise(old judges?) while others are like this one(young judges?).
Maybe there is a point where we should stop feeding our kids with liberalism before they start thinking that murder should be tolerated by society.:help:

Fragony
03-23-2007, 12:31
I'm afraid of that new breed, but it could explain why some court rulings are very wise(old judges?) while others are like this one(young judges?).


The old ones probably realise that change isn't necesarily always for the better. The others, a train without a brake.

KukriKhan
03-23-2007, 12:55
Which prompts the question(s) from an ignorant Yank: How are judges selected in Germany? Election? Appointment? By whom? For how long? How do you get rid of one?

Husar
03-23-2007, 15:57
Which prompts the question(s) from an ignorant Yank: How are judges selected in Germany? Election? Appointment? By whom? For how long? How do you get rid of one?
I have no idea, never even been in a courtroom myself.:sweatdrop:
I was wondering that as well while writing my last post, may want to look it up somewhen, but I guess another member might have a lot more insight on that.

Haudegen
03-23-2007, 20:11
How are judges selected in Germany? Election? Appointment? By whom? For how long? How do you get rid of one?

Well that depends. There are different procedures in every state of Germany. But generally speaking, judges are appointed by the regional Department of Justice or a committee, which consists of some members of the regional parliament. Judges are appointed for a testing period which lasts 3 years, IIRC. After that they are appointed for lifetime if they have proven themselves. Once a judge reaches this point he has a quite strong position, because he can only get fired if he commits serious crimes. Judges are generally subject to disciplinarian sanctions. But this thing is very limited due to the fact that judges are granted independence in their job.

KukriKhan
03-25-2007, 13:19
Thank you, Haudegen. I also found this (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wfbcjger.txt), a (long) explanation of Germany's Justice System, produced by the US Dept of Justice. Fascinating info, with background on the legal philosophies used, down to police training & equipment.

It looks like, in no case in Germany, are Judges elected by the everyday voters (we do that in many, but not all places), but rather by specialized commitees. So firing one who has passed his/her internship period, would be a very difficult task, as you say. And over-ruling a lower judge's decision in a case would take considerable effort to get elevated to the Federal Constitutional Court. Lots o' power those folks have.

Goofball
03-26-2007, 19:49
I'm afraid of that new breed, but it could explain why some court rulings are very wise(old judges?) while others are like this one(young judges?).
Maybe there is a point where we should stop feeding our kids with liberalism before they start thinking that murder should be tolerated by society.:help:

I'll bite.

How does liberalism promote tolerance of murder in society?

Crazed Rabbit
03-26-2007, 21:13
Here's a video for you Goofball, highlighting how modern liberal thought always follows the path that leads to bad results*:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c

A bit long.

Somewhat applicable to the original post, if I say so myself.

Crazed Rabbit
*I'm not saying I necessarily agree with liberalism promotes murder, but there might be some good arguments for it.

Kralizec
03-26-2007, 21:17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

I don't see how the original promotes murder, though.

Lemur
03-26-2007, 21:21
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

I don't see how the original promotes murder, though.
And here we get into the use and abuse of the words "liberal" and "conservative," both of which are applied to movements that have nothing to do with the terms they use to label themselves. From your lovely Wiki link:


Beginning in the late nineteenth century, and especially after 1930 in the United States, the term liberalism came to be associated with a very different emphasisis, particularly in economic policy. It came to be associated with a readiness to rely primarily on the state rather than on private voluntary arrangements to achieve objectives regarded as desirable. The catchwords became welfare and equality rather than freedom. The nineteenth century liberal regarded an extension of freedom as the most effective way to promote welfare and equality; the twentieth century liberal regards welfare and equality as either prerequisistes of or alternatives to freedom. In the name of welfare and equality, the twentieth-century liberal has come to favor a revival of the very policies of state intervention and paternalism against which classical liberalism fought. In the very act of turning the clock back to seventeenth-century mercantalism, he is fond of castigating true liberals as reactionary!

—Milton Friedman

And don't get me started on how unconservative the American conservative movement is ...

Kralizec
03-26-2007, 21:27
Of course, that bit of text is US-centric and Husar is German.

Since the "New Right" reared its head "conservatism" has changed radically :dizzy2:

Goofball
03-26-2007, 23:01
Here's a video for you Goofball, highlighting how modern liberal thought always follows the path that leads to bad results*:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c

A bit long.

Somewhat applicable to the original post, if I say so myself.

Crazed Rabbit
*I'm not saying I necessarily agree with liberalism promotes murder, but there might be some good arguments for it.

I don't know why, but on my office computer I can never get sound with YouTube video (weird, because I get sound with everything else), so I am unable to watch the video right now. However, I also note that it's 45 minutes long, so I probably won't bother watching it when I get home, either. Perhaps you can give me a précis?

Husar
03-26-2007, 23:18
To me it's:

conservatism: from to conserve or conservare in latin IIRC, meaning old-fashioned, trying to keep old morals and generally trying to keep almost everything "the way it has always been" or "like in the good old times"

liberalism: coming from to liberate, to set someone free, liber means free in latin so liberalism means to be open-minded and open to new things, striving for as much freedom as possible

Now these are my definitions which I just wrote down out of my mind and reflect a second of thought and remembering what I think about them.
I think in some cases they fit in nicely with how they are used here but I tend to use them very seldom myself, because I am both depending on topic and sometimes mood and I try not to put others into drawers as we say here.

Probably because I myself am like this, I think a balance between the two is the way to go and wise decisions have to be made. Being open to new things is good in many regards but IMO there is a point where the whole thing can turn into the negative and that is where liberalism should stop. IT's a hard decision to take and for me as a christian it's often a question of, how liberal would Jesus be? Would he turn the other cheek to radical muslim terrorists or would he support to fight them to dave many innocent lives? Can a soldier be a christian and kill other people? Well, I'm often happy that I'm not the one to decide, I don't have an answer on those questions, but I think throwing radical people out of the country is neither liberal nor conservative, we just show them if they want to live in our little economic paradise, they have to follow the rules or go somewhere where their views are not against the constitution.

My views for tonight and thanks for reading.:sweatdrop:

Goofball
03-26-2007, 23:38
To me it's:

conservatism: from to conserve or conservare in latin IIRC, meaning old-fashioned, trying to keep old morals and generally trying to keep almost everything "the way it has always been" or "like in the good old times"

liberalism: coming from to liberate, to set someone free, liber means free in latin so liberalism means to be open-minded and open to new things, striving for as much freedom as possible

Now these are my definitions which I just wrote down out of my mind and reflect a second of thought and remembering what I think about them.
I think in some cases they fit in nicely with how they are used here but I tend to use them very seldom myself, because I am both depending on topic and sometimes mood and I try not to put others into drawers as we say here.

Probably because I myself am like this, I think a balance between the two is the way to go and wise decisions have to be made. Being open to new things is good in many regards but IMO there is a point where the whole thing can turn into the negative and that is where liberalism should stop. IT's a hard decision to take and for me as a christian it's often a question of, how liberal would Jesus be? Would he turn the other cheek to radical muslim terrorists or would he support to fight them to dave many innocent lives? Can a soldier be a christian and kill other people? Well, I'm often happy that I'm not the one to decide, I don't have an answer on those questions, but I think throwing radical people out of the country is neither liberal nor conservative, we just show them if they want to live in our little economic paradise, they have to follow the rules or go somewhere where their views are not against the constitution.

My views for tonight and thanks for reading.:sweatdrop:

Given the subject of this discussion and the screen name of one of our more colorful posters here at the .Org, I find that typo to be very telling...

:inquisitive:

Crazed Rabbit
03-26-2007, 23:47
Goofball;
In brief, modern liberalism is the belief that wars, poverty, all bad human stuff, suffering, etc, comes from various parties believing they had the right way to solve problems. The solution, to them, is therefore to assume there is no right way, to assume anyone who says there is a right way is a supporter of human suffering. They also refuse to discriminate - that is, choose logically between different options - meaning no one is better than anyone else (see, perhaps, the Iranian thread).
An example he uses is an extension of kindergarten thought - do not hit becomes never wage war. They do not allow exceptions, basing their view on the cut and dried kindergarten version with bigger words.

I've not done the speaker justice with my brief synopsis, but that's kind of the idea. I would recommend watching it.

Crazed Rabbit

Goofball
03-27-2007, 00:15
Goofball;
In brief, modern liberalism is the belief that wars, poverty, all bad human stuff, suffering, etc, comes from various parties believing they had the right way to solve problems. The solution, to them, is therefore to assume there is no right way, to assume anyone who says there is a right way is a supporter of human suffering. They also refuse to discriminate - that is, choose logically between different options - meaning no one is better than anyone else (see, perhaps, the Iranian thread).
An example he uses is an extension of kindergarten thought - do not hit becomes never wage war. They do not allow exceptions, basing their view on the cut and dried kindergarten version with bigger words.

I've not done the speaker justice with my brief synopsis, but that's kind of the idea. I would recommend watching it.

Crazed Rabbit

That's where things really fall apart with that definition of liberalism. If that were really true, liberals would implicitly be acknowledging that (for example) the hard core Christian conservative way of doing things was just as good a way of doing things as any other.

See the fallacy there?

Husar
03-27-2007, 00:31
Given the subject of this discussion and the screen name of one of our more colorful posters here at the .Org, I find that typo to be very telling...

:inquisitive:
:laugh4:
I'll leave it there just for you.~;)