Private Prisons

[ShadeHonestus]

I caught an interview today on the radio with a state politician, who announced the introduction of a bill in Iowa which would ban privately owned prisons completely. I haven't researched the topic myself to any extent and thought it would be interesting to see what the esteemed members of the backroom had to say on the matter.


On a side note, the representative in the interview said that he had extensively studied the statistics and facts from a state which had experience with private prisons and likewise banned them entirely. He stated again and again how completely and thoroughly he read their research and was in constant contact with their lawmakers in an attempt to bolster his pro-ban stance. At the end of the interview he admitted that he could not recall the name of the state...

[edit]
I should state for the record that Iowa doesn't have any private prisons, so this is law would be preventative in nature as they are looking at possibilities should the need arise for more capacity.

[Watchman]

Good riddance, I say. It rubs me the wrong way to give a bunch of investors a vested interest in having as many prisoners as possible behind the bars for as long as possible, if you know what I mean.

[Hosakawa Tito]

The State of Texas has quite a few privately run prisons.

Profits of Crime. (http://mediafilter.org/MFF/Prison.html)
Private Prisons (http://www.prisonactivist.org/pipermail/prisonact-list/1997-January/000760.html)
Private Prison Industry (http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve3/1025pris.html)
Penology for Profit (http://www.prop1.org/legal/prisons/980105.htm)

The immigration center is owned and operated by Corrections Corporation of America, which manages more private prisons than any other company worldwide. While CCA made nearly $14,000 a day on the out-of-state inmates, the company was quick to point out that it had no legal obligation to tell the Houston police or county sheriff about their new neighbors from Oregon. "We designed and built the institution," explained Susan Hart, a company spokeswoman. "It is ours."

Yet like a well-to-do rancher who discovers a couple of valuable head of cattle missing. C.C.A. expected Texas rangers to herd the wayward animals back behind the company's fence. "It's not our function to capture them," Hart told reporters

I've been in NYS Corrections for 23+ years. Private prisons are not the way to go.

[Lemur]

Hmm, it seems like a fundamentally bad idea. Nobody wants to hear from prisoners anyway, so can you imagine the sorts of abuses that a private contractor could get up to? No, I think corrections is a field that belongs with the state. If we need to drive down costs, then we need to look at why exactly we're locking up so many non-violent drug offenders who ought to be thrown into rehab anyway.

Hosa, are the Rockefeller Laws (http://www.drugpolicy.org/statebystate/newyork/rockefellerd/) still on the books in NY?

[CountArach]

Privately Owned Prisions? What a ridiculous idea. What is to stop a Mob boss pooling cash, starting one, and then organising people to work for him once they get out? Let the Government, who has no stake at all in their future, deal with them.

[doc_bean]

I don't really see how a private business like this can be an improvement over a public business. With things like electricity or gas companies I can understand the reasoning, but in the case of prisons ? How are they going to keep the costs down ? Worse circumstances for prisoners ? Less pay for guards, and hence less qualified personnel and probably more corruption ? Letting the prisoners earn their keep ?
Certainly almost every aspect related to a prison has to be subject of legislation, so there is almost no room for improvement due to private ownership, the way they'll make money is probably by overcharging, so you'll end up loosing money and with a worse prison system.

Ban 'em.

[Beirut]

Is for-profit prison like for-profit healthcare - if you don't pay, do they kick you out?


"Gee, sorry warden, I'm a little short this week. See ya!" :slomo:

[Ironside]

They earn money by begging from the state right? As I'm having difficulties to see were you earn money on a prison. Cheap labour perhaps?

[Watchman]

Obviously, it's the state or some other public authority that foots the bill. Private enterpreneurs sure as Hell aren't going to run prisons for free, that's for certain. At which point there is a very good reason to ask, why not just cut out the middleman and have state prisons in the first place ?

Then again, shameless and often irrational profiteering is the the fundamental bedrock of Amercian values anyway far as I've seen.

[BDC]

Sounds like something Blair would like. We practically have state schools sponsored by private companies here anyway. Who needs political representation when the market can run everything?

[Adrian II]

I've been in NYS Corrections for 23+ years.So I heard. What was it again you're doing time for? :smartass2:

[Hosakawa Tito]

@ Lemur - The Rockefeller Drug Laws are still on the NYS Penal Law books. This is one area where NYS could save a lot of money by changing their thinking and ways with dealing with drug offenders. If they would decriminalize (not legalize) the less harmful ones, make treatment & counselling mandatory with the threat of jail time for not following through. Right now it's the exact opposite, treatment would be more effective and less people would be incarcerated for what should be considered a medical problem. I used to work in a maximum security jail, Attica. I now work in a Shock Incarceration facility, a boot camp style program for first time felons, most are aged 17 to 25. It's an intense 6 month program designed to break the cycle of recidivism of the standard inmate population, by attempting to nip it in the bud. Once a young first time felon goes to regular jail, and mingles with the career convicts, you've lost him. This program can work, if one wants to change. The carrot, 6 months instead of the 1-3 year standard State sentence for most non-violent felonies. The stick, wash out of the program and you'll do your regular bid as "fresh meat" in the shark tank of regular jail. There is also more intensified parole requirements for Shock Camp graduates. This is key, because if you release them back to the same old neighborhood, same old circle of "friends", more likely they'll backslide to the same behavior and poor decision making that got them arrested the first time.
This program gives them an opportunity to break that cycle of stupidity, it's no guarantee, you have to want it, put forth the effort, not give up when it's oh so easy to do so.

The multitude of "conflicts of interest" with the Private Prison System, some of which are profiled in the links provided, should raise red flags to any States considering going private. Poorly trained and paid staff with high turnover, closing security posts to the detriment of safety for staff, inmates, community. Little to no programs for inmates, the 1971 Attica Riot drove this mistake home, idle inmates are a ticking time bomb. Cutting corners on food, medical care, housing (many of the private jails are "leased" from the State, so there's no incentive to properly maintain them), etc... This is how the private prison industry maximizes their profits. Their growth and profits depend on full prisons all the time, with increasing the incarcerated population for future profit as well. A bad system indeed.

@ Adrian II - What's a knuckle dragging neanderthal with no Rhodes Scholar prospects going to do?~;p Occupation......fool.~:wacko: when life hands you lemons, you make lemonade

[Duke Malcolm]

I believe that we have one Gaol in the PRS not under control of the Scottish Prison Service and off in private hands. Somewhere near Kilmarnock, I've been told... And there are many complaints about it. Just as there are complaints about the company which takes prisoners between the court and the gaol.

[Tribesman]

Sounds like something Blair would like.
Of course he would , he is after all a Thatcherite and it was thatcher who reintroduced the concept to modern Britain .
Come to think of it wasn't it one of her husbands business froiends and one of her ministers whogot the first contracts , and it was one of her ministers who got the first private prisoner escort service contract as well , if I recall correctly they got in a bit of trouble for releasing the wrong prisoners by mistake , losing prisoners quite a lot , oh and employing convicted criminals as warders and escorts:dizzy2:
Hell yeah private prisons sound like a great idea .:laugh4:

[Watchman]

Well, I've no doubts they sound like an absolutely brilliant idea for *somebody*. Although mainly for making money.

"Merchant morality" has its uses, but should really be kept out of things which are not chiefly about buying cheap and selling dear.

[ShadeHonestus]

The State of Texas has quite a few privately run prisons.
Profits of Crime. (http://mediafilter.org/MFF/Prison.html)
Private Prisons (http://www.prisonactivist.org/pipermail/prisonact-list/1997-January/000760.html)
Private Prison Industry (http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve3/1025pris.html)
Penology for Profit (http://www.prop1.org/legal/prisons/980105.htm)
I've been in NYS Corrections for 23+ years. Private prisons are not the way to go.

Do you have any examples from your experience that are exceptions to the general rule of private prisons proving inadequate.

To show maybe the well intentioned ideal, but which the majority fail to even attempt.

[Divinus Arma]

I have mixed emotions on this one. I am very supportive of privatizing public instituions, but this concept is a bit tricky. In this instance, I believe that a joint private-public approach would probably be best overall. The need for oversight and regulation simply demands government management in key positions. However, the details of the operations could easily be handled by a private firm. Sadly, the only clear way for the firm to make a profit is at the expense of the government. If private firms could be reimbursed in other ways, it may be more valid.

I like the idea, but the potential for unethical management is unpalatable for me.

[ShadeHonestus]

As I forgot to above, thanks to all who have so far and will subsequently post their opinions on the matter.

[doc_bean]

I have mixed emotions on this one. I am very supportive of privatizing public instituions, but this concept is a bit tricky. In this instance, I believe that a joint private-public approach would probably be best overall. The need for oversight and regulation simply demands government management in key positions. However, the details of the operations could easily be handled by a private firm. Sadly, the only clear way for the firm to make a profit is at the expense of the government. If private firms could be reimbursed in other ways, it may be more valid.

I like the idea, but the potential for unethical management is unpalatable for me.

There seems to be a certain part of the conservatives (and liberals ?) that want to believe privatization is always a good thing. In many cases they have a point, since the government is inefficient almost by default, but there are also many downsides to letting private companies handle public matters, for one, they want to make profit, in order to do this they can :

1. Increase pricing: bad for the average tax payer (most public/privatized businesses are monopolies or pretty close)
2. Ask more money from the government: bad for just about every taxpayer
3: Decrease service (for instance traisn that don't go to smaller stations anymore) bad for part of the taxpayers
4. Cut costs due to overhead and inefficient management

We're all hoping that they'll go for number 4 (they were put in random order here), but you can't ignore that they'll often try a little of 1,2 and 3. They're there to make a profit, and the end result of privatization can be bad for the consumer.

The choice whether to go for private or public companies is a tough one and depends on the situation, however, when it comes to the prison system, I don't see much profit to be made in 4, so it would be fair to assume that it's better kept as a public responsibility.

[KrooK]

Private prisons are dangerous because they can easily turn into concentration camps. Into public prison guardians are public officers and they have special obligations. Into private they are just workers and they don't look at human rights.
Some people tell that private prisons are cheaper but its not true. Into france they establish something very similar to private prisons (into some places to test this project) - public buildings and guardians but other personel is from private companies. Its appeared that it costs 3 times more than normal prison :)
I have seen some movies from Texas too when guardians into private prisons had some fun. They entered cells with dogs, found prisoner who earlier complained against them, and ordered dogs to attacks :) woof woof
(btw prisoner was black, they were white )

[drone]

The main problem is the conflict of interest that exists between proper care/containment of prisoners and the stockholders. As a corporation, a private prison's main duty is to the stockholders. If the books start getting tight, who is going to suffer? Prisoners should remain "wards of the state".

[Hosakawa Tito]

Do you have any examples from your experience that are exceptions to the general rule of private prisons proving inadequate.

To show maybe the well intentioned ideal, but which the majority fail to even attempt.

The main reason to switch to privately run jails is to decrease the cost to taxpayers and at least maintain the same care, custody, and control of the incarcerated. Tax savings seem to be minimal, and the care,custody,control is definitely much worse. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of mismanagement & waste in the State Correctional system, mostly because the oversight is lackadaisical, political & patronage interference, sometimes even corrupt. If the State Department can't manage their own people well, how can they expect to attempt to manage a private enterprise any better.

[ShadeHonestus]

Hosakawa Tito

I understand and points taken and appreciated. What I was wondering though is if there is, from your experience, a shining example for private prisons in cost efficiency and performance.

[Major Robert Dump]

private prison companies spend millions of dollars a year lobbying for mandatory minimums for drug offenses. Not for rapes, or murders, or robberies, for drug offenses. heh.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Hosakawa Tito

I understand and points taken and appreciated. What I was wondering though is if there is, from your experience, a shining example for private prisons in cost efficiency and performance.

Not to my knowledge. NYS passed legislation barring private prisons from operating in the state. If there are any shining examples operating elsewhere they are keeping it pretty quiet.

Yeah Dump, because there are more drug offenders than the other groups. Gotta keep those cells full.

[BDC]

private prison companies spend millions of dollars a year lobbying for mandatory minimums for drug offenses. Not for rapes, or murders, or robberies, for drug offenses. heh.
Side income? Hah.