View Full Version : Observation - What, no ceasefire? All you have is that hut left of your empire.
I was playing small campaign mode with British and it seems like time after time even with a mixed or good reputation, I cannot offer a ceasefire. I even got to the point to kicking the french all the way to their last stronghold in the bottom of present day France, I had three stacks of well trained units siegeing the capital. I even offered an extremely generous list (trying to postpone victory conditions and to see if they would accept.) for a ceasefire like giving back not only Paris but two other major regions, a whole whopping bank full of hundreds and all the rights I can give them. AND THEY NEEDED THIS, I didn't. They still said no and it only said Balanced on the tradeoff info.
My observation is this, at the dawn of endgame, the computer will do everything it can do to stall but not ceasefire. I was at war with Milan and Spain at the same time. I took over completely Sicily when they also refused my generous ceasefire (Actually better than above.) I saw stacks upon stack trying to take over my foothold in France but with no avail. I think the CPU got desperate toward Endgame and tried all that it could do. Even HRE stood back and watched, IGNORING ALL MY PLEAS FOR ANY ASSISTANCE AT ALL. Stupid Milan and stupid nations loving them too much. Well, lets just say I won.
Ceasefires and Vassals can be stupid like that - basically, no matter what you offer, if you were the one who started the negotiations you have little chance of success
Orda Khan
03-20-2007, 11:04
Always has been a major failing of this game that weak factions do the most ridiculous things
.......Orda
Diplomacy is a major issue with MTW2 some of the AI shanagans is ridiculous, it seems unable to calculate a good choice based on the criteria available (force strenght, reputation, wealth).
However the model in place seems to have the potential to be a rather nice functioning system if the AI were be a bit more savvy (your example aside). If I am the HRE and the french offer an alliance and trade rights and i note they are at war with England I ask for more because the alliance means more to them then me (this is one basic premise the AI seems to miss).
An AI HRE could hurt a human France if the human is fighting the English. While the threat might not be deadly in the humans eyes, the AI should see this as a diplomatic or military opportunity, and not soely military.
The diplomacy model appears to be able to handle that, i am no programmer but if we can get some kind of bump in diplomacy AI on the harder levels that would be a fine improvement to the game.
HoreTore
03-20-2007, 18:35
How much easier would the game be if the AI made rational decisions?
They should be cooperate among themselves, and very hostile against the player...
SoxSexSax
03-20-2007, 19:11
How much easier would the game be if the AI made rational decisions?
They should be cooperate among themselves, and very hostile against the player...
I disagree. The AI hurts itself, not helps, by continuing to war when it's blatantly going to lose. In my current Poland game, Hungary are at war with pretty much every other catholic faction, and yet they STILL refuse my ceasefire request, even when I offer to give them back Budapest. That...makes...no...sense...
FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 19:13
Actually if you mod the campaign_db file to have trustworthy allies AND lower the requirements for the AI to accept a ceasefire/protectorate you could achieve that.
I noticed doing those changes also fixed the problem whereby you would remain allied to 2 warring factions: now you auto-unally with the defending faction. Similarly your allies auto declare war on someone if you wage war.
Actually, it's not unheard of. Germany tried many times to sue for peace with England after the fall of France. Hitler had respect for England and didn't want to conquer the English islands (he wanted to invade Russia, and England took away from that). There was never any guarantee that England would hold out against the full might of the German military (esp. if they had gone 100% after England, vs focusing on gearing up for the war to the east). As history showed, they were able to hold out, but at the time there was no guarantee.
Another example is the battle of the bulge. The famous "nuts" quote from the battle of Bastogne (I think that's the spelling) is another example of a vastly overpowered force choosing to fight on despite the obvious.
The Alamo is yet another example.
SoxSexSax
03-20-2007, 20:02
The few occasions where it has happened in real life in no way justifies the utter conistency with which it happens in M2TW. I don't think (on VH/VH) I have EVER had a ceasefire offer accepted...the only ceasefires that ever happen is when they offer it to me...and they only EVER offer it to me if we don't touch land borders. In my experience, on VH, if war breaks out against a country you have a land border with, that war continues until A) one of you dies or B) you no longer share a border.
In some situations, you could argue that the AI is right to do this, But certainly not all, and probably not even most. Diplomacy in this game right now is FUBAR. I don't expect the kind of diplomatic depth from a TW game as Civ4 or EU, for example, but nor do I expect total incompetence, which is what we currently have.
Roll on 1.2, I say!
Orda Khan
03-21-2007, 17:10
The few occasions where it has happened in real life in no way justifies the utter conistency with which it happens in M2TW. I don't think (on VH/VH) I have EVER had a ceasefire offer accepted...the only ceasefires that ever happen is when they offer it to me...and they only EVER offer it to me if we don't touch land borders. In my experience, on VH, if war breaks out against a country you have a land border with, that war continues until A) one of you dies or B) you no longer share a border.
In some situations, you could argue that the AI is right to do this, But certainly not all, and probably not even most. Diplomacy in this game right now is FUBAR. I don't expect the kind of diplomatic depth from a TW game as Civ4 or EU, for example, but nor do I expect total incompetence, which is what we currently have.
Roll on 1.2, I say!
I have to agree and it's probably the main reason why I tire with SP so quickly
.......Orda
Zasz1234
03-21-2007, 19:09
yeah, the ai is pretty ridiculous. Although as the scots, after fighting several wars with the british, even stabbing them in the back twice in short succession they still ceasefired and then allied me, while France my staunch ally from the start suddenly cancels our alliance before said deal even occurs, now there is a solid Anglo-Scottish alliance chewing up France and Denmark, and the English show no signs of giving up. I think this is doubly weird considering I though the English wer hard-coded to hate the Scots no matter what. So I guess the ai is capable of moments of true diplomatic genius and absolute stupidity.
I agree, the no ceasefire thing is annoying.
I have Egypt pushed into just Tripoli in my current Turk game. Will they talk ceasefire? Sure! But I'm being "very demanding." Yeah, demanding they don't suicide.
I guess I will see if I can make them a vassal. The long distance from Tripoli to Alexandria gives me a buffer zone to watch for incoming backstabs, so I don't mind letting them live on, if they will behave.
Or maybe I should just bribe the Moors into attacking them. :smash:
Discoman
03-21-2007, 21:39
Another example is the battle of the bulge. The famous "nuts" quote from the battle of Bastogne (I think that's the spelling) is another example of a vastly overpowered force choosing to fight on despite the obvious.
The Alamo is yet another example.
Well thats different. General Taylor said "Nuts" most likely because he knew allied support would eventually arrive and because it would cause a serious morale blow to have the elite para-troopers surrendering to the Germans. The Alamo was for independence and as in any TW game, you can't baragin with rebels who want liberty or death as the saying goes.
Besides that I really hate the fact that the only true alliance I can have in the game is with the Papal states, infact I found the only way not to fight certain factions is to give the Papal states border regions. That way you can have less enemies and have more set areas for conquest. Also it annoys me that the AI only betrays human controlled factions and not that of other AI. Honestly I wish I could gain a vassal kingdom or have a permenant ally to help me rule the known world. Also its stupid how weaker factions attack you for no reason. Example, Portugal attacks me when I'm Venice even though I have the strongest military and economy. Honestly where is the common sense in that? Even when you have the best of reputation it doesn't make the least bit difference on diplomacy except it's harder to make alliances that won't last for 10 turns.
I agree with discoman, the AI likes to attack all the time if you share a border and being allied to someone on the opposite side of the worldmap is not really the most useful thing I could think of.
Patricius
03-22-2007, 01:04
Well thats different. General Taylor said "Nuts" most likely because he knew allied support would eventually arrive and because it would cause a serious morale blow to have the elite para-troopers surrendering to the Germans. The Alamo was for independence and as in any TW game, you can't baragin with rebels who want liberty or death as the saying goes.
Besides that I really hate the fact that the only true alliance I can have in the game is with the Papal states, infact I found the only way not to fight certain factions is to give the Papal states border regions. That way you can have less enemies and have more set areas for conquest. Also it annoys me that the AI only betrays human controlled factions and not that of other AI. Honestly I wish I could gain a vassal kingdom or have a permenant ally to help me rule the known world. Also its stupid how weaker factions attack you for no reason. Example, Portugal attacks me when I'm Venice even though I have the strongest military and economy. Honestly where is the common sense in that? Even when you have the best of reputation it doesn't make the least bit difference on diplomacy except it's harder to make alliances that won't last for 10 turns.
I thought that the ai has a setting in campaign_db to attack the most successful faction. Editing does help a bit, but I find that once the ai factions become hostile a diplomat is pointless.
Heh, diplomacy is just to hold them off long enough to get ready to KILL THEM ALL!
Wait, maybe I've been playing muslim factions too long.
The number one priority of any medieval european ruling house would be self-preservation, to stay in rule and to keep your lands from shrinking. stubborn refusals to yield to a totally superior foe, offering good terms, is just stupid, and is the biggest letdown of the strategic game. I mean, every single king in the game acts like Hitler in the last days of the Reich. This looks even dumber when you take into consideration that you get offered ceasefire at almost any monetary cost in the beginning of the game, when your rep is good, but you have no apparent advantage over the enemy in the field.
Of course every now and then a war should be fought to the bitter end, but that should be the exception, not the rule.
SoxSexSax
03-22-2007, 20:09
It feels to me that the AI's goal is more "stop the player winning" rather than "let's try to win". Which, if true, is wrong and could go a way to explaining why I rarely finish a long campaign.
Belisarius Invictus
03-25-2007, 04:56
Seems to me the concept of vassals in the game is out of whack. In real life, you didn't have major powers making other powers their vassals and collecting serious tribute from them. Vassalage between factions (as opposed to the more common feudal vassals within factions) was typically more something like the Papal States being nominally under the control of the HRE, or Holland being under the control of Spain.
What I mean is, such vassals might kick back a SMALL amount of tax revenues, but the real "perks" of having a faction as your vassal was they didn't have a foreign policy independent from your own (can't start wars), and you would choose who their faction heir is. Basically, it's not that they give you their paycheck each month, but rather they can't blow their nose without asking if it's OK with you.
I got all the ceasefires that I asked for. After screwing around and building up repore with enemy nations and beating the hell out of them. I asked for ceasefires and didn't have to pay much for it. If it says VERY DEMANDING - forget it but if it says GENEROUS, go for it. I had a war with Spain, Milan and Sicily at the same time and now its just on with Milan. I wanted a break. Their front lines a decimated and I wanted to reinforce my stuff before prolonging the conflict anymore.
Down with Milan. They are like Termites and eat away at the foundations of the map. THey must be terminated.
I agree, the AI is totally stupid and it really ruins this otherwise great game. The AI just attacks you whenever it wants, regardless of the current peace/war status.
I have been playing as England and allied with Spain so that I could focus on France and Denmark. I tried to make peace with Denmark but that wasn't working. I was allied with Spain for a LONG time, talking to them frequently and giving them map info, 500 florins and offering to attack the Moors for them which raised my relation status to Perfect. After wiping out France and holding the east border I started working on the middle east, Egypt and Africa. Many turns went by and I kept talking to Spain keeping my relations good/outstanding/perfect by giving them about 500 cash nearly every turn. I held Tolouise and Bordeaux and never made any agressive moves towards Spain. We're both at war with the Moors and he's fighting them around Corduba and has plenty of room to expand south. I'm only sending merchants to Timbuktu and only have Tripoli and the old Carthage city (forgot the name). A dozen or so turns later I see a stack of Spainish troops cross over into my lands. I send my diplomat to talk to him and give him 500 florins, map info and an offer to attack the moors all as a gift and he happily accepts and says how much he loves me. Our relations are "perfect"! The next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux and puts in under siege! I reloaded the last saved game and backed up a turn and get the Pope to call a crusade to take Corduba figuring that might distract his attention. Again I go and offer him 500 florins, map info, attack on the moors and he happily accepts. But as soon as I hit next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux again! Not even calling a crusade in a territory right next to him distracts him. Diplomacy is totally irrelevant.
During a short campaign as the Scotts I had made my way down to Africa at war with the Moors. I offered him ceasefires including 1000 cash, map info, trade rights, etc etc and he continually refused. So as he's down to one territory I attack and wipe out his main stack of troops. Before I siege his last city I send my diplomat and offer him to become a vassal (he refuses) so then I offer him another ceasefire, with cash and an "accept for I'll attack" thrown in. He refuses so I siege his last city and wipe him out on the same turn. There's just no respect or fear from the AI towards the player and it's a big disappointment.
I don't even bother with diplomacy after making Trade rites. There is no point due to the fact that all alliances mean nothing to the AI. just park one outside the popes hut and that's about all you need
Just today playing Hungary the Turks who had lost their capital and had only one province left they offered a ceasefire for nothing
Actually if you mod the campaign_db file to have trustworthy allies AND lower the requirements for the AI to accept a ceasefire/protectorate you could achieve that.
I noticed doing those changes also fixed the problem whereby you would remain allied to 2 warring factions: now you auto-unally with the defending faction. Similarly your allies auto declare war on someone if you wage war.
Hi, does anyone know what I should change to lower the requirements for vassalage and ceasefire ? also to implement the auto-un ally and auto-war ? Many thanks in advance !
Salute !
Durallan
04-22-2007, 07:14
you guys should use the leaked 1.2 AI files, I'm ahving alot more fun with the AI with the 1.2 files,
I must say I've still had problems, Sicily wouldn't agree to vassalship even if I gave them back all their territories, however Scotland and the Holy Roman Empire have become vassals.
Furious Mental
04-22-2007, 09:30
Maybe this is the game's way of telling you to be more ruthless.
This is one of the reasons why when I end up waging war with someone else (usually after they have attacked me first) it's usually to the death - because they NEVER surrender, or accept a ceasefire, not even when I have three full-stack armies outside the walls of the shell of their last pathetic city (whose buildings my assassins have virtually destroyed).
I have been playing as England and allied with Spain so that I could focus on France and Denmark. I tried to make peace with Denmark but that wasn't working. I was allied with Spain for a LONG time, talking to them frequently and giving them map info, 500 florins and offering to attack the Moors for them which raised my relation status to Perfect. After wiping out France and holding the east border I started working on the middle east, Egypt and Africa. Many turns went by and I kept talking to Spain keeping my relations good/outstanding/perfect by giving them about 500 cash nearly every turn. I held Tolouise and Bordeaux and never made any agressive moves towards Spain. We're both at war with the Moors and he's fighting them around Corduba and has plenty of room to expand south. I'm only sending merchants to Timbuktu and only have Tripoli and the old Carthage city (forgot the name). A dozen or so turns later I see a stack of Spainish troops cross over into my lands. I send my diplomat to talk to him and give him 500 florins, map info and an offer to attack the moors all as a gift and he happily accepts and says how much he loves me. Our relations are "perfect"! The next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux and puts in under siege! I reloaded the last saved game and backed up a turn and get the Pope to call a crusade to take Corduba figuring that might distract his attention. Again I go and offer him 500 florins, map info, attack on the moors and he happily accepts. But as soon as I hit next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux again! Not even calling a crusade in a territory right next to him distracts him. Diplomacy is totally irrelevant.
This has just happened to me too. As Hungary I had perfect relations and alliances with most powers - I had a long-standing marriange alliance with Poland and Denmark, while I also had alliances with the Pope, Sicily, the HRE, England, France, Portugal, Spain and Russia (all on perfect), while I also had perfect relations and an alliance with Turkey (I wanted to secure my eastern flank while I eliminated the Byzantines). I had outstanding relations with Egypt, the Moors and Spain, although I didn't have alliances with them.
I could understand the Turks breaking their alliance against me as a jihad was called on Constantinople - after I bloodied their noses by destroying two full stack jihad armies outside Nicaea they sued for peace as our relations were still "reasonable" at that point. This seemed to be democracy which was logical, reasonable and based on geopolitical realities.
But what was really wierd was when a Spanish general with about 4 units (2 catapults, a jinete and a spear unit) landed on Ajaccio which I had taken from the Venetians some time ago, and attacked me for no reason at all! I had an alliance with them, and the status of our relations were perfect. Why? What did they have to gain? Even worse they refuse to accept any ceasefire, so I've been in a 10 year war with them where both of us are too far to attack the other. This didn't make any sense at all to me.
Another example was when, after my princess married the Danish king, I accepted a request from the Danes to help them against the HRE. I attacked from the east while they attacked from the north - I took Nuremburg after some heavy fighting. Then I saw a full Danish stack coming south from Hamburg - I thought it was headed to Staufen, but no - it headed to Nuremburg and the clowns attacked me! This is a nation that I had a perfect alliance with, had a marriage alliance and was helping in a war against the HRE. In addition, Denmark was ALSO at war with France and England, so it wasn't in their best interests to get embroiled in another war, with a strong and trusted ally (they only had about 3 provinces all up, and if they wanted to expand they could have done so to the north as Oslo and Stockholm were rebel provinces). It didn't make sense...
What annoys me is that the factions I'm not playing as never try to negociate a ceasefire or ask to become my vassal even when I'm crushing their armies and exterminating their cities, nor do they seek out an alliance no matter how strong my faction is or whether we share a common enemy. Similiarly if I'm at war with two factions they won't form an alliance or alliances against me.
RickooClan
04-22-2007, 17:30
you guys should use the leaked 1.2 AI files, I'm ahving alot more fun with the AI with the 1.2 files,
I must say I've still had problems, Sicily wouldn't agree to vassalship even if I gave them back all their territories, however Scotland and the Holy Roman Empire have become vassals.
Yea, in 1.02 factions will actively seek for ceasefire/become vassals if they think they are in trouble.
Cant wait for the full release of 1.02. Without the passive AI bug and such, the game will become really great imo.
Durallan
04-23-2007, 06:53
Yea, in 1.02 factions will actively seek for ceasefire/become vassals if they think they are in trouble.
Cant wait for the full release of 1.02. Without the passive AI bug and such, the game will become really great imo.
I tried an experiment yesterday, I've been at a bitter war with portugal for awhile, so I thought what the hell I'll see if they accept a vassalship for 1 million florins, and they accepted, nothing else just 1 mil florins and the vassalship. Next turn I got the 1 million back.... so I got a vassalship for pretty much nothing. I now have 4 vassals, the Turks, Portugal, Scotland and HRE, I've tried to get poland and papal states as vassals, but unfortunately the turks are allied to them both and even though they were allied to me, when I declared war on the turks they broke their alliance with me, and the turks aremt even catholic! :dizzy2: not to mention the fact I've been allied to them ALOT longer than they have been allied to the turks
Bob the Insane
04-23-2007, 09:47
I always figured that the AI factions where "trying to win the game" rather than "acting in a realistic fashion"...
However this does not really excuse suicidal behaviour, you can't win unless you are still in the game afterall...
The mechanics are that after loads of battles and taking all but one of their settlements the AI's opinion of your faction is so low that there is no chance of it accepting anything from you (well not anything as the 1 million florin example above shows). You need to keep an eye on your faction's reputation level too...
Playing with the leaked patch one nice thing I noted was that when allies went to war I was asked which one I wanted to support and lost my alliance with the other one. This occurred every time so far that allies started fighting...
I held Tolouise and Bordeaux and never made any agressive moves towards Spain. We're both at war with the Moors and he's fighting them around Corduba and has plenty of room to expand south. I'm only sending merchants to Timbuktu and only have Tripoli and the old Carthage city (forgot the name). A dozen or so turns later I see a stack of Spainish troops cross over into my lands. I send my diplomat to talk to him and give him 500 florins, map info and an offer to attack the moors all as a gift and he happily accepts and says how much he loves me. Our relations are "perfect"! The next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux and puts in under siege! I reloaded the last saved game and backed up a turn and get the Pope to call a crusade to take Corduba figuring that might distract his attention. Again I go and offer him 500 florins, map info, attack on the moors and he happily accepts. But as soon as I hit next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux again! Not even calling a crusade in a territory right next to him distracts him. Diplomacy is totally irrelevant.
I did a bit of (very informal) testing on this and it seems as though once the AI has "decided" to attack a city (eg it has raised a stack and sent it towards that city - Bordeaux in your case) it doesn't matter at all what you do, whether you increase relations, call a Crusade, give the city away or whatever - it is going to attack that city no matter what. Nothing you do diplomacy wise will change it.
I tested it when I was in a similar situation with Denmark - I took Nuremberg (which was owned by the HRE) after I accepted an offer to help the Danes in their war against the HRE (my army got there a couple of turns ahead of theirs). Even though I was their ally, and I had taken Nuremberg from HRE, they still attacked me! I reloaded, took Nuremberg and gifted it to the Pope, and the Danes STILL attacked it (and got excommunicated, the idiots).
sbroadbent
04-24-2007, 05:41
I tested it when I was in a similar situation with Denmark - I took Nuremberg (which was owned by the HRE) after I accepted an offer to help the Danes in their war against the HRE (my army got there a couple of turns ahead of theirs). Even though I was their ally, and I had taken Nuremberg from HRE, they still attacked me! I reloaded, took Nuremberg and gifted it to the Pope, and the Danes STILL attacked it (and got excommunicated, the idiots).
That would definately be in line with what I observed from the HRE. They sieged Antwerp or Bruges, and I swooped in and took it from them by using spies to open the gates. Since they hadn't taken the city, they were still obsessed with the target, and subsequently attacked me, ending our alliance.
In one of my other games, I called a Crusade against the Sicilians Cagliari castle. There were several factions there among them were Portugal and Milan, and the Papacy.
I ended up taking the settlement from Sicily, but Portugal (who had two stacks there), sieged the castle. Knowing that I had no way of fighting that number of troops, I think I even gifted the settlement to them, but for some reason they decided they didn't like my troops and attacked them anyway. Fortunately I was able to get the troops away and flee back to the mainland.
Generally the AI doesn't give much of a hoot about alliances etc. If you leave a city unprotected you can expect the AI to attack it, alliance or no. In my current game as France the AI did something really stupid, though. I had a marriage alliance with Hungary and that was fine until one day he launches a surprise attack on Vienna, with a stack so puny the defenders just gave him a quick auto-resolve. So then I chewed up nearby Budapest, which was severely undermanned. Duhhh.
But my favourite is the trashed nations asking for ceasefire. They have one province left and they keep upping their demand - give us 50,000 for two turns and we'll give you a (meaningless) ceasefire. Good joke, AI.
But when you have 40 provinces the AI has got to try something to give you a run for your money.
Dave1984
04-25-2007, 15:17
Didn't know this game had a "British" faction.
But my favourite is the trashed nations asking for ceasefire. They have one province left and they keep upping their demand - give us 50,000 for two turns and we'll give you a (meaningless) ceasefire. Good joke, AI.
But when you have 40 provinces the AI has got to try something to give you a run for your money.
Recently I ran into this same problem. In my current campaign there is three superpowers and then Venice. I annilated Vienice to the two islands they control because of their constant backstabbing and they were done for. So, they coffed up a ceasefire for some rediculous terms like Steev wrote and I ACCEPTED IT. Well, they won't hold off on it and three turns later when they were broke again they attacked again and after that they wanted a ceasefire with rediculous terms.
I did what anyone would do and filed a return for the original money, sack their remaining two island and exterminated their population. Then I burned the settlement down after they were all dead by destroying buildings.
In terms of vassalage I have just realised what I was doing wrong.
I was taking the advice: Foe down to one city, outnumber 3-1 around it, 5-1 overall, offer cash and a city or two: Demanding no go.
Then I seiged for ONE FULL TURN. Even though I had cannon I maintained siege and tried again next turn. Lifted siege and sent same diplomat back in - suddenly I was balanced before I even added cash or cities.
It appears the AI is a bit thick and doesn't believe you can destroy it unless you give them a turn under siege to think about it.
Now planning on ruling the world through vassals and reducing my own cities to 25 (the good ones :-).
Of course they'll probably renege quickly - I'll just have to keep bribing them.
Hey can you post me a step by step on how to do this please ?
To make someone your vassal (note this is 1.1. on Hard Campaign. VH it seems impossible on 1.1. 1.2 it should work even better!) This is what has finally worked for me...
Your opponent must be down to one city, you must be at war.
Surround their last city, outnumbering them heavily (3:1 or better). t's been suggested you need 5:1 overall as well - but that's going to be pretty much certain in most scenarios!
Send in the diplomat and suggest vassalage (bottom of demands). Even promising them cash and their conquered cities back they'll probably laugh in your face.
Siege the city but don''t attack. Let them stew. Hit end turn.
Lift the siege. Send your diplomat back in - suddenly they're a lot more receptive. Vassalage with no bribes is balanced. Add a sweetener (cash or cities).
Hey presto they are your vassal, count towards your victory conditions, are a useful buffer state and you don't have to worry about maintaining their crappy city (especially useful if fighting catholics as muslims - don't have to worry about converting). You also have military access so your armies can just keep on going cutting a swathe through europe..
P.s. Something else I'm experimenting with: withholding some of the bribe. Although they become your vassals your relations will start terrible. This makes them liable to renege. Only give them cash. then next turn give another city as a gift. Then another city next turn etc. This way you can get rid of poor cities but they still count towards victory and your vassal loves you!
Check diplomacy scroll every turn. Relations always go down. Have plenty diplomats offering tributem, map info and cities to put it back up. Even a tiny, weak, insanely vulnerable vassal will turn on you if relations get poor and your rep is bad (rather likely).
I thought it was impossible for vassals to turn on their master (I know the player can do it, but iirc the AI is blocked from doing so)
Oh, ok. I hadn't realised that (as I suggest only just got some!) but I'm sure I saw someone post that if you attack someone who's allied with your vassal then they can choose to break the vassalage.
If your relations are good they might not? No?
Yeh, that's right
The issue is that vassals don't automatically adopt your own foreign policy, as they should.
As such, if you attack one of their allies, they might choose to remain allied with them, breaking the vassalage.
True, but unlike RTW they don´t automatically side with their AI ally, now it depends on relations, which is a great step forward in my book.
And you don´t necessarily have to beat them down to their last city. Just outnumbering 3-1 locally and 5-1 globally should do, at least I for my part had vassals who still kept a considerable amount of lands.
I have noticed, however, that your allies (not vassals), if you go to war with one of their allies, tend to side with the one who got attacked, no matter what the relations are. And aiding an ally (for instance by placing an army next to his army which is besieging a city, when your ally attacks the city you automatically take part in the assault) also counts as an aggressive move, I´m not entirely sure about coming to the defense of an ally in the same way.
TevashSzat
04-29-2007, 14:36
The first time I managed to get vassals was being the Danes. It was quite early in the game and I had about 6-7 provinces compared to the 5 the poles had. We were about equal in military strength, but I started the war by sieging both Thorn and Krakow simultaneously. Next turn, they came to me for a ceasfire and I countered with a vassalage and they accepted.
Next turn, I attack HRE and the Poles end their vassalage due to their alliance with the HRE and then turns around and attacks me...
I believe relations with the AI affect their receptiveness of diplomatic actions. Therefore, you should gift the AI a province to raise relations before requesting vassalage/ceasefire. Though, I may try the "siege last city before asking" method.
It seems logical for relations to affect the kind of deals the AI accepts, but in the case of peace deals, it seems somewhat flawed. It should be how badly it is being pwned that affects its desire for peace.
See my little report on my Portugal game as evidence.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83011
Discoman
04-30-2007, 01:38
I did manage to get Venice for a time as a Vassal when playing as the HRE, it only lasted one turn because I kept offering them money as a gift and they refused and revoked vassalege under me. I really don't see how giving someone money would piss them off. I think the AI should really consider vassalage more, I remember playing England on VH,VH and Spain back stabbed me. Causing me to take Spain's France territory. Then after calling a crusade of Leon I used 5 crusading armies to take over the iberian peninusula in only 5 turns! The strange part is how my reputation was Very Reliable and yet they refused any ceasefire. Infact after that point no nation wanted to do have diplomatic relations with me.
Sometimes the AI seems a bit suicidal. At one point long time Allies, Venetia, attacks me even though they are waging war against my very strong allies, The Turks, and have only 3 settlements left. I mean there they were, trapped between me and Italy and the Turks in Eastern Greece, talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. And after I destroyed the two Venetian armies they only had 3 settlements with only 2 groups of men guarding each one!
In my current campaign that I started over as England. Well, I am playing short and after eliminating Scotland and tearing up the french HALFWAY through their territory. I offered a Vassalage and almost got it, so I offered a province back and I got it. I didn't have to wait until they were no more, the French actually could have still been formitable. Don't get me wrong, I took Paris and Rhelms with ease but they still have at least 4 proviences left.
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