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Lemur
03-20-2007, 22:39
I was always a bit suspicious of hybrid cars. It's those darn batteries. They're toxic as hell, heavy as all get-out, and something about the whole concept didn't add up. Interesting article about total environmental impact of a Hummer versus a Prius, and the hybrid does not win (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188).

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage

By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer
March 7, 2007

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

drone
03-20-2007, 23:00
Surely you read the Slashdot comments that went along with this article? The Prius' lifespan is underated in this article, and the Hummer's is overrated.

That said, hybrids as they stand are not that much more efficient than standard ICE cars. And they lead to the eco-snob effect and mind-boggling legislation. My favorite is local: one incentive to get people to buy hybrids in the DC area is the ability to drive in the HOV lanes with one. Hybrids are best in stop-and-go traffic, so naturally the solution is to give them access to the lane that doesn't stop-and-go. :rolleyes2:

Big King Sanctaphrax
03-20-2007, 23:12
Even if you don't want to do complicated calculations like these, the vast majority of diesel-engined cars get better fuel mileage than the Prius.

It's simply too damn heavy.

Papewaio
03-20-2007, 23:19
Wouldn't buses make more sense in having a hybrid setup? They have to stop and start all the time to pickup and put down people. It would also have the government put their money where their mouth is.

Did the total cost of manufacture include the cost of the car disposal? The nickel should be worth recycling which could reduce its long term environmental impact. Also environmental restoration around the mine site would help reduce the long term impact.

Whacker
03-20-2007, 23:29
One thing that people don't take into account is that it takes a certain amount of energy to move a car and one's large butt from point A to point B. Some means are more efficient than others, but it's still going to require some kind of and a certain amount of power. Whether one drives their newer Civic that puts out less greenhouse gasses in a week than your average 2 stroke weedwhacker, or is plugging their hybrid/electric beast into the wall outlet to be charged by the coal burning smoke belching powerplant up the road, that energy is coming from somewhere. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of better emissions control and conservation, but I think there are many people (in the general populace) who have a misunderstanding of exactly how much they are "saving the planet" by switching to hybrid vehicles.. Lemur's article is a good one.

Beren Son Of Barahi
03-20-2007, 23:55
While there is a point to this article, it is just as misleading as the toyota advertising... they start talking about costs insted of emissions in the comparisions, also they don't include diesel or natrual gas or LPG gas, all of which are better then any hybrid or hummer....

all our local buses run on natrual gas, a great way to reduce emmissions...

Whacker
03-20-2007, 23:58
Wouldn't buses make more sense in having a hybrid setup? They have to stop and start all the time to pickup and put down people. It would also have the government put their money where their mouth is.

Did the total cost of manufacture include the cost of the car disposal? The nickel should be worth recycling which could reduce its long term environmental impact. Also environmental restoration around the mine site would help reduce the long term impact.

Expanding on your point, an even bigger problem in the US is the near total lack of any decent public transport. Sure some of the bigger cities have subways and bus systems, but overall it's pretty woefully inadequate. When one does the math, it's often about the same cost to own and drive a car or another vehicle end to end instead, often because there's no end to end efficient, cheap public transport especially for people who live in the 'burbs.

English assassin
03-21-2007, 13:47
As BKS says, the published fuel economy and emissions figures for the Prius are no better than many diesels, at which point I crossed the Prius off my shopping list. Which of course means I didn't even get to cross it off because of the pitiful luggage space (they put the battery and electric engine where your suitcases would normally go) or the fun of getting a knuckle scraping grease monkey to work on a hybrid car.

The only point to a Prius is that is says "the enviroment matters to me" in the same way that driving an SUV says "My penis is small, my brain is smaller, and I really could not give a **** what you think, peasant".

On that basis I am tolerating them for now but there had better be a genuinely environmentally friendly hybrid come along soon or I will be giving up.

doc_bean
03-21-2007, 14:02
One thing that people don't take into account is that it takes a certain amount of energy to move a car and one's large butt from point A to point B. Some means are more efficient than others, but it's still going to require some kind of and a certain amount of power. Whether one drives their newer Civic that puts out less greenhouse gasses in a week than your average 2 stroke weedwhacker, or is plugging their hybrid/electric beast into the wall outlet to be charged by the coal burning smoke belching powerplant up the road, that energy is coming from somewhere. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of better emissions control and conservation, but I think there are many people (in the general populace) who have a misunderstanding of exactly how much they are "saving the planet" by switching to hybrid vehicles.. Lemur's article is a good one.

The idea of a hybrid is that that batteries charge up when you're 'normal' engine is producing too much and too use that engine when much energy is needed so your combustion engine doesn't have to produce as much. Like someone else mentioned, it's mostly good at stop-and-go driving, since your combustion engine really isn't. While the combustion engine is still one of the best ways of 'producing' energy it loses a lot of efficiency in transitory regimes (going from one speed to another) which is exactly what happens a lot when driving, so the hybrid system makes sense.

@OOP: very interesting article Lemur, though I'd like more links and more clear figures (what do $ suddenly have to do with it, are those the costs for environmental remediation (sp?), didn't seem so) and less emotional appeal (the Ni factory, like an oil spill is all that great). I might look into it some more if i find the time.

Whacker
03-21-2007, 14:55
The idea of a hybrid is that that batteries charge up when you're 'normal' engine is producing too much and too use that engine when much energy is needed so your combustion engine doesn't have to produce as much. Like someone else mentioned, it's mostly good at stop-and-go driving, since your combustion engine really isn't. While the combustion engine is still one of the best ways of 'producing' energy it loses a lot of efficiency in transitory regimes (going from one speed to another) which is exactly what happens a lot when driving, so the hybrid system makes sense.

It'd also be great if we could figure out something to do with all the heat waste that's generated. IIRC quite a bit of the inefficiency and energy loss in car engines is due to thermal processes. Maybe we can figure out a good way incorporate some kind of portable stove or oven in the engine compartment. :grin:

doc_bean
03-21-2007, 15:11
It'd also be great if we could figure out something to do with all the heat waste that's generated. IIRC quite a bit of the inefficiency and energy loss in car engines is due to thermal processes. Maybe we can figure out a good way incorporate some kind of portable stove or oven in the engine compartment. :grin:

Car engines have at most an efficiency of 50%, I believe this is about the theorectical limit, you'll really need a radical redesign to make them much more efficient.

DemonArchangel
03-21-2007, 15:23
Wouldn't buses make more sense in having a hybrid setup? They have to stop and start all the time to pickup and put down people. It would also have the government put their money where their mouth is.

Did the total cost of manufacture include the cost of the car disposal? The nickel should be worth recycling which could reduce its long term environmental impact. Also environmental restoration around the mine site would help reduce the long term impact.

Around where I live, buses DO have a hybrid setup, and are powered by biodiesel or natural gas to boot.