Bugfix - Latest Update on patch 1.2 [Archive]

View Full Version : Bugfix - Latest Update on patch 1.2

whodat

03-21-2007, 18:27

Hot off the presses from the Totalwar.com site:

Hi guys,

Testing revealed a couple of issues in Update 2 that need to be ironed out. We have now submitted a new build to SEGA and it is currently undergoing further testing.

As always, we will keep you informed…

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW

This was posted today at 9:02am on the feature list post.

Guess this means I won't be seeing the patch this weekend. Oh well, at least they are catching the problems pre-patch.

econ21

03-21-2007, 18:30

Thanks for the heads up. Has there been any word on whether the patch will be save game compatible?

Quickening

03-21-2007, 18:33

I thought this thing was due out tomorrow? "Around the 23rd" they said.

Lusted

03-21-2007, 18:34

At least they are making sure the patch isn't buggy which is a good thing.

whodat

03-21-2007, 18:42

Quickening

03-21-2007, 18:46

No problem Econ, glad to help.

Patience people, patience. Would you rather have a buggy patch that cause more conflicts, or one that works smoothly and fixes most/all the issues players have brought to CA/Sega's attention? What is a few more days if it improves the game play?

Id rather have not need patches so urgently and had them sooner and bug-free frankly.
I have the patience of the Saint and thus far I have been amongst those who have said "Hakuna Matata" and just enjoyed the game as it is. But now its wearing thin. Just fix the damn game.

vonsch

03-21-2007, 18:49

I had the patience of a saint, but then the trait bug kicked in and now I'm at zero! ~;)

Odin

03-21-2007, 18:50

Id rather have not need patches so urgently and had them sooner and bug-free frankly.
I have the patience of the Saint and thus far I have been amongst those who have said "Hakuna Matata" and just enjoyed the game as it is. But now its wearing thin. Just fix the damn game.

As much as I hate to admit it Im starting to feel the same way as Quickening, on harder levels SP is becoming fairly annoying with the lack of AI Diplomacy.

Foz

03-21-2007, 20:50

I had the patience of a saint, but then the trait bug kicked in and now I'm at zero! ~;)
I don't think saints were really all that patient, to be honest. After all you get to be a saint by getting lots of important things done, don't you? Sounds pretty impatient to me.

As for the trait bug... if you mean the one where whole trait lines can just vanish because of their antitraits gaining a point, then check out my antitrait fix. It makes the whole problem go away. It's in my sig :smile:

Bijo

03-21-2007, 23:53

But by getting lots of things done doesn't mean one is impatient. It simply means one would get lots of things done, and the time frame wasn't even specified :bow:

Ah, anyway, I can be as patient as Buddha but it's good to know that the patch is coming up soon enough. I might even start playing M2TW again :2thumbsup:

...though that's a slim chance of course :P

Memnoch

03-22-2007, 08:09

I'm happy to wait if it means that the quality of the patch will be improved.

Skyline Pete

03-22-2007, 10:22

I'm kinda bummed about the patch coming out as it means I'll have to go and re-mod the game.

The only thing left about the game I haven't fixed is the shield bug. I've got everything else set up just the way I like it.

fabiano

03-22-2007, 20:21

No problem Econ, glad to help.

Patience people, patience. Would you rather have a buggy patch that cause more conflicts, or one that works smoothly and fixes most/all the issues players have brought to CA/Sega's attention? What is a few more days if it improves the game play?

I would be much more happier and patient if they did that tests before they release the game and I pay $50 for it...

Fabiano

alpaca

03-22-2007, 20:31

I would be much more happier and patient if they did that tests before they release the game and I pay $50 for it...

Fabiano
Well I'm sure they would have if it hadn't been for the christmas sales arriving ;)

JCoyote

03-22-2007, 21:51

Well I'm sure they would have if it hadn't been for the christmas sales arriving ;)

I don't know if that's an excuse for selling a car that's missings some sparkplugs and has to use a emergency halftire because all the tires aren;t done yet. The A/C you have to wait a few months for and the seatbelts you have to go to a 3rd party to get... But sure, the car worked, mostly. :laugh4:

Lusted

03-22-2007, 22:07

FactionHeir

03-22-2007, 22:09

There's 3 important dates I guess:
Christmas, fiscal year end, pre-summer.

Quickening

03-22-2007, 22:11

I think all sane humans agree that the game should never have been released in the state it was. What I want to know now is exactly how long a wait to expect for this patch. Days? Weeks?

FactionHeir

03-22-2007, 22:15

Considering they need to fix bugs and send it back for approval, another 3 weeks.

TinCow

03-22-2007, 22:15

I think all sane humans agree that the game should never have been released in the state it was. What I want to know now is exactly how long a wait to expect for this patch. Days? Weeks?

I must be insane then. M2TW was far less buggy OOB than RTW. IMO it was about on par with OOB MTW, which everyone seems to praise out the wazoo.

Quickening

03-22-2007, 22:17

Considering they need to fix bugs and send it back for approval, another 3 weeks.

*weeps*

I must be insane then. M2TW was far less buggy OOB than RTW. IMO opinion it was about on par with OOB MTW, which everyone seems to praise out the wazoo.

With bugs like passive AI, the shield bug and the two-handed bug... I must agree, you are mental :laugh4:

FactionHeir

03-22-2007, 22:21

M2TW has more bugs than RTW. Look at the buglist to convince yourself.
My bugs found list for RTW was much shorther than that.

Doug-Thompson

03-22-2007, 22:50

I don't think saints were really all that patient, to be honest. After all you get to be a saint by getting lots of important things done, don't you? Sounds pretty impatient to me.

That's a good point. The mind boggles.

On a related note, today was a personal first for me.

I'm downloading the "Silent Hunter IV" patch to burn it on CD.

I haven't bought the game yet.:dizzy2:

Whacker

03-22-2007, 22:50

RTW has plenty of bugs out of the box, but baring the savegame corruption bug that struck me once, it was far more playable than M2TW was/is in my opinion.

As to the expected patch 1.2 date, I'm guessing yet another week or two. Shall we take bets on the days? I call 3/30 at 8:00 AM EST.

FactionHeir

03-22-2007, 22:51

That's a good point. The mind boggles.

On a related note, today was a personal first for me.

I'm downloading the "Silent Hunter IV" patch to burn it on CD.

I haven't bought the game yet.:dizzy2:

Eh? Patches come out before the games now? :clown:

Doug-Thompson

03-22-2007, 23:40

Eh? Patches come out before the games now? :clown:

Just about. The game came out March 20. The patch came out March 22. Haven't seen the game itself in stores in Little Rock, Ark. yet.

Foz

03-23-2007, 03:52

I think all sane humans agree that the game should never have been released in the state it was. What I want to know now is exactly how long a wait to expect for this patch. Days? Weeks?
Metacritic (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/medieval2totalwar?q=medieval%20total%20war) disagrees with you. When a game can score an 88 out of the box, it's clearly good enough to be released. Sure there's a bunch of stuff that we've all found out are bugs, but as people have pointed out, a great many of them are very difficult to notice when you play the game unless you know exactly what to look for. I think as a result of hunting down all these bugs, we've all drifted a bit toward the negative side of things. We're so focused on what's wrong with the game that we're missing what's right with it! All in all this is a great game even without the much-anticipated fixes of the 1.2 patch, and frankly I'm quite happy that I've had it to play and tinker with for the past few months: it's been undoubtedly far better than most other games that would've filled that time instead.

Would I have liked to see a more polished product released? Of course - but that doesn't take away from the value of what WAS released. A 3/4 finished work by a master painter is still sublime when compared to a completed work by a novice, especially when the master is already working on finishing it for you.

SoxSexSax

03-23-2007, 04:37

I don't see much right with M2 in its vanilla state Foz. Battlemap is utterly FUBAR due to shield bug, campaign map is dull due to ridiculous diplomacy and inept AI (anyone else seen the 8 crusading armies surrounding a target but not attacking it issue?), multiplayer is horribly unbalanced due to cavalry push through issue + shield bug, and had unplayable lag in 4v4.

All three major aspects of the game have huge bugs/imbalances. While there are good things in the game, it is impossible to enjoy them with all the bad. It'd be like eating an ecalir with sour cream. The pastry and chocolate will still taste the same, but would YOU want to eat it?

Ultra disappointed with CA, but not surprised. They know most players don't even read the forum. They know most players haven't even heard of the shield bug, much less noticed it. It's us hardcore players who actually PLAY the game (rather than merely playing WITH it) who suffer. We're their most loyal customers but we're also the ones who can't enjoy games where we see massive deficiencies in it. And the sheer volume of deficiencies in M2 have killed all my enthusiasm for it, which pre-release was pretty huge.

This is not the 1st time I've felt let down by a game company(and won't be the last, I'm sure). But M2TW certainly takes the award for biggest let down; that is to say it is the worst game I've played that I actually expected to be great. I've played worse games, but I didn't expect them to be as good as I expected M2 to be. And that is very disappointing.

GuyofJerusalem

03-23-2007, 05:12

The "issues" thus revealed are that CA are incompetent, uncaring programmers, not to mention game makers.

Nothing but net - you know it's true.

BlackAxe3001

03-23-2007, 05:31

@Foz

Couldn't agree more. Good analogy with the painting. I like it. :2thumbsup:

Yeah, bugs suck, but the game is FUN. It hasn't stopped me from playing it. Don't focus on the bugs, just have fun. It's cheap entertainment. $50/4000000000 hours of m2tw = DIRT CHEAP. Enjoy the game, CA actually gives a crap about the community and are fixing the bugs, it just takes time. Give them a break already, the patch will come when it comes. Complaining about waiting doesn't make it go any faster. If they rush, you complain because they didn't fix everything. If they take their time and fix everything, you complain it takes too long. Ease up already... don't make me bust out the whip! :whip:

BlackAxe3001

03-23-2007, 05:33

The "issues" thus revealed are that CA are incompetent, uncaring programmers, not to mention game makers.

Nothing but net - you know it's true.

Who do you think you are? Provide some solid fact and quit spewing garbage. If you don't like the game and don't like CA then go away. Everyone here is pretty much an avid total war gamer and really likes CA for the work they do. Ugh...

sapi

03-23-2007, 07:28

CA Bashing achieves nothing and will not be tolerated.

Lets keep this on topic.

Nebuchadnezzar

03-23-2007, 07:29

The analogy with the car industy doesn't work, if the car industry was like the pc gaming industry if you took the car back because of faults and went for another car, they'd all have faults!

Fortunately for consumers cars are subject to certain safety standards as well as consumer standards and a manufactureres warranty. Software games are not required to meet any consumer standards and come with a near useless very limited warranty that more idemnifies the developer than guarranties the game.

Metacritic (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/medieval2totalwar?q=medieval%20total%20war) disagrees with you. When a game can score an 88 out of the box, it's clearly good enough to be released. Sure there's a bunch of stuff that we've all found out are bugs, but as people have pointed out, a great many of them are very difficult to notice when you play the game unless you know exactly what to look for. I think as a result of hunting down all these bugs, we've all drifted a bit toward the negative side of things. We're so focused on what's wrong with the game that we're missing what's right with it! All in all this is a great game even without the much-anticipated fixes of the 1.2 patch, and frankly I'm quite happy that I've had it to play and tinker with for the past few months: it's been undoubtedly far better than most other games that would've filled that time instead.

It doesn't matter what a online/magazine game review scores. Its the end user that ultimately decides its true score.

I've found MTW2 a very bitter and frustrating pill to swallow that falls short of my expectations. Even without the crashes, graphics glitches, mouse/keyboard problems its very difficult not to notice the myriad number of bugs that are present in the game. Not quite gamebreaking but disappointing nevertheless.

Would I have liked to see a more polished product released? Of course - but that doesn't take away from the value of what WAS released. A 3/4 finished work by a master painter is still sublime when compared to a completed work by a novice, especially when the master is already working on finishing it for you.

For a driver, a ferrari without an engine certainly does not have greater value then a running car.

The finish of a product is a reflection of the pride of one has with their work whether novice or pro.

Unbeatable AI, new improved diplomacy, pleased with the finish of the product are words used to promote MTW 2. We were promised a day 1 patch that took a month and a day. Now I am being told that a new patch is in the making with many of the same fixes that were supposed to have been fixed in the first patch but were'nt. They took my money in November 2006 but its now mid march 2007 and still no patch. I have every reason to be angry but most of all I am appalled at the level of customer service I have received.

Incongruous

03-23-2007, 07:59

Great post:2thumbsup:

I think it's funny that, just because they are software company, CA beleive they can treat their customers like an annoyance, great!:beam:

SadCat

03-23-2007, 08:42

I liked my 1.1 game. I liked even better my 1.1 + Foz fixes game. I hope 1.2 is even better. I got my moneys worth, Hours of fun! I still need to complete the HRI game. SadCat

Husar

03-23-2007, 10:48

Lord_hazard

03-23-2007, 11:05

Oh I cant wait to try out the patch toda...say what? Ah, cabagepatch cakes.
Well lest just hope that its minor flaws and they are easily corrected. Or in other words...I want the patch now waaaaaaah.

Stuperman

03-23-2007, 11:05

I worry that this update wil be all cinematic and map editor, and very little bug fixing. Last I read it was suposed to be like 650 Mb too!

Incongruous

03-23-2007, 11:07

It's funny how especially the self-proclaimed veterans are mourning because the patch takes so long. This was exactly the same with previous TotalWar games and if it really bothers you so much, why did you buy another Total War game? If they are not worth the money, why did you buy four of them? Why didn't you stop after one or two?:inquisitive:
And I actually enjoyed the game a lot before I read about the shield bug and two hander bug here. And yes, I started focusing on them and only then did I start to notice their effects which now make me wait for the patch. I might have never noticed them without reading about them, though a few units did surprise me with their bad performance.

Yesh, its the nawty wawty Vetys fault you can't play Medy Two any more:2thumbsup:

I suppose, the vets (whom I count myself as having played TW from the start) have a right to be rather annoyed, becasue with the vets, TW would not exist, the vets are the ones whom bought STW even though it was a completley out there idea. The fact that CA seem to be completley disregarding them is a huge slap in the face, one which says much about the collective conscience of the team.

But anyway. If you wish to simply accept the lousy Customer service of CA that is of course, you're choice.

Ethelred Unread

03-23-2007, 11:18

Wouldn't bad customer service be if they didn't even attempt to fix the bugs?

If you want to see bad customer service try either a large telecommunications company in the UK, or any mobile phone supplier. Or banks. Thats real "I don't give a monkey's chuff about my customers" levels of service.

sapi

03-23-2007, 11:20

:focus:

pike master

03-23-2007, 13:08

CA has done a wonderful job on this game. if it was such a bad game, how come you guys were willing to spend 50 dollars to get it.

they have your money now so they really dont care what you think.the game is completely and wonderfully balanced right out of the box. all they are trying to do now is some small finishing touches.

:laugh4:

Quickening

03-23-2007, 13:11

Odin

03-23-2007, 13:26

what continually amazes me is that end users rail against an established PC Game practice. You find me a product that has come out bug free in the last 3 years.

You buy a game at release, your beta testing it for them. Pick any game you want, look at thier forums and you will find a section for user reports on issues.

Of the famous "wishlists" or "bug reporting" threads. This is how the industry has progressed, and its progressed that way mainly because consumer purchase the product as is.

Cavaet emptor, the only way to correct this process is to not purchase the game until it is at the "1.2" fix level, believe me its an economic model that drives this process not a blatant anamosity from a developer.

CA Makes fine games that with some tweeks (shield fix) out of the box you can play, a lot of companies are not like that. Additionally anyone who surmises that CA's intent is to harm the customer with late fixes or lack of testing, again dosent understand the economic model at work here.

I hope 1.2 comes out today, I dont want to wait for it. But look at it this way, modding is a direct result of the short coming of this economic model, and if companies did put out bug free games at the start you wouldnt have half the mods you have.

A silver lining can be found in most anything if one looks hard enough.

Quickening

03-23-2007, 13:32

Odin

03-23-2007, 13:39

All games are released with bugs, yes. But to varying extents. About a month or two ago I bought Europa Universalis 3. Does that have bugs? Yes, but nothing near the degree of M2TW. Sure M2TW is far from the worst case of a bugged game, but it ain't the best case scenario either.

Conceded. However i have extensive history with Paradox games and thier forums, and there was a time when you could have gone to thier forums and seen literall 10 thousand (total) posts on bugs for thier games.

Paradox is an example of a company who has improved tremendously, but again go back 2-3 years to the old EUII or HOI and under the guise of "support" they put out multiple patches (sometimes versions a,b,c, just to quick fix a patch they just released).

Again the industry is not dicatated by suits in an office, or spectacle wearing programers in a cubical, its dictated by the consumer. Its a very simple economic model, you release a game that works and your consumer base helps you identify the problems.

Your getting paying customers to test your product, why wouldnt you do that? There is only one piece of this equation that can change the current system and that is the consumer.

Whacker

03-23-2007, 13:48

Again the industry is not dicatated by suits in an office, or spectacle wearing programers in a cubical, its dictated by the consumer. Its a very simple economic model, you release a game that works and your consumer base helps you identify the problems.

Correction, it IS dictated by suits in their offices, but based on their perceptions of the consumers (usually as given to them by their marketing drones).

Your getting paying customers to test your product, why wouldnt you do that? There is only one piece of this equation that can change the current system and that is the consumer.

Agree completely, the one thing we can fix is ourselves. Vote with your cash, and don't lower your standards or expectations.

BTW Quickening, I kinda figured you were going to get flamed into oblivion on this one. :grin: For the record I agree with your asssessment, this one should have stayed in the oven longer, I've gone on to playing other games until further patches come out.

:balloon2:

Odin

03-23-2007, 14:04

Correction, it IS dictated by suits in their offices, but based on their perceptions of the consumers (usually as given to them by their marketing drones).

it Is dictated by the consumer. The laws of supply and demand are predicated on consumption as a reality not as an anticipated reality. That reality being prior sales of exsisting like product. Suits might be the ones who present the data but the market force that drives economics has and always will be consumption.

BTW Quickening, I kinda figured you were going to get flamed into oblivion on this one. :grin: For the record I agree with your asssessment, this one should have stayed in the oven longer, I've gone on to playing other games until further patches come out.

to bad he is being flamed because in an ideal market situation he is right it should have been "cooked" longer. Sadly quickening (along with the rest of us) are the problem, we bought the game before it met our expectations, that is our fault not CA's

Quickening

03-23-2007, 14:13

Sadly quickening (along with the rest of us) are the problem, we bought the game before it met our expectations, that is our fault not CA's

This is the first time I was on this forum for the release of a Total War game. I do love the series but for the next Total War installment, I'll wait and see what the people on the .org have to say about it a month or so after release before buying.

Odin

03-23-2007, 14:18

This is the first time I was on this forum for the release of a Total War game. I do love the series but for the next Total War installment, I'll wait and see what the people on the .org have to say about it a month or so after release before buying.

Nothing personal man, but this cant be the 1st game you have had this issue with? This is pretty industry standard mate, pick the game at release its got some issues.

I waited until 1.1 until i bought the game knowing that there were issues, but those issues have been addressed in mods (LTC 2.1). So yeah, watch the boards, do your due diligence as a consumer and know the product you are buying.

Tyrac

03-23-2007, 14:26

I have never bought or played any TW game until after the first real patch. I learned this with Shogun. I have however bought ALL the TW games and most of the expansions, because there is nothing that even comes close to this game in terms of enjoyment and time spent in single player games. :)

Now that I am officially a "vet" I know what to expect in terms of release and patches and it shocks me to see people who should have also learned this very simple fact crying like children. :oops:

In 2 or 3 years when the next TW rolls out I hope you will have woke up and can restrain yourself and wait to buy it rather then dash out and make the same stupid mistake you made with the last 2 releases. :wall:

I also look over the mods and bug fixers and try to pick and use the most basic one, i.e. the one that fixes the most bugs without fixing "personal" things, before I even play the tutorial.

:idea2:

Why don't you do these things too?

Oh and I am very excited about the coming patch!

And for the great bug fixers to follow in its wake! :laugh4:

Aquitaine

03-23-2007, 14:42

This is the same discussion that goes on with every game these days (and that went on with MTW and RTW).

- Where's the patch
- It'll be here when it's here
- This game sucks without a patch!
- Why you'd buy it, foo
- I'm never buying another CA game until the next one!
- CA Developers exist to spite me personally

...and so on.

Not relevant and not productive (which this post is just as guilty of for commenting on it). Can we move on?

Quickening

03-23-2007, 14:51

Nothing personal man, but this cant be the 1st game you have had this issue with?

No. Ive been playing PC games since 1993 and this is certainly not the first game Ive had an issue with. However, I can't recall an issue with a game that bothered me so much.
I don't know about MTW and RTW because I only began really playing them after all the patches had been released (not intentionally, just turned out that way).

Perhaps it is just the kind of game this is that makes the issues such an irritant for me. I can put up with weird clipping bugs in FPSs. I can put up with the odd balancing issue in your standard RTS. But a game like Total War is built on it's battles and for me at least, things like the shield bug and two-handed bug really grate because they cause deep problems. I don't care about weird diplomacy, out of place sound effects or dodgy terrain etc so much. I do care about battle mechanics in a game based on battles.

Like I said this is the first Total War game where I have been active on these forums for release. I remember someone here saying "the next time a Total War game is released I will be ripping the modem out of the wall" because of the amount of complaining about the game. At the time I agreed with his sentiment and I still do to a degree. I hate seeing new topics like "this game is broken!111!!!!!11". But after three months I want the game fixed.

Someone earlier raised the issue of the game getting such high scores in reviews. I read PC Gamer UK which gave the game 94%. But as also pointed out, most of the bugs were not discovered until after a month or two. There was no chance that reviewers were going to notice them on their schedule. Would the game have scored less had they been aware of them? Absolutely, Id say.
Although I write game reviews for another forum (it's nothing serious, just for fun) and interestingly, I won't be letting the bugs influence it. Because the fact remains that even now, M2TW is immensely enjoyable to play (for me at least) and has massive potential.

This could be debated forever so just to sum up my point of view. M2TW is a fantastic game. It's my favourite in the Total War series and my favourite strategy game over all. There is nothing like it. But no way should specific bugs such as the shield bug, two-handed bug and passive AI have escaped notice before release. But I do love the work CA has done and am very, very eager/impatient to play the game as was intended.

Husar

03-23-2007, 15:08

I just read that 3DRealms wanted to make the perfect game and call it "Duke Nukem Forever" and now we all know what happens with perfect games.:oops:

The interview can be found here (http://www.yougamers.com/articles/1820_scott_miller_-_the_man_who_would_be_king-page1/), I just read a summary on another site which is german though.

Whacker

03-23-2007, 15:12

I based my decision to buy M2TW on my enjoyment of the series, and the experiences with the games in the past, most notably RTW. Sure RTW had bugs, but my experience was that it wasn't nearly as bad as M2TW was/is at launch. Lesson learned, I will be waiting on the next TW titles.

There are other games that I haven't bought due to developer stupidity and arrogance/fascist copy protection/dumbed down product but it does take a bit of willpower to do this. For example, everything on this list: http://www.glop.org/starforce/list.php is on my blacklist.

:balloon2:

TinCow

03-23-2007, 15:28

M2TW has more bugs than RTW. Look at the buglist to convince yourself.
My bugs found list for RTW was much shorther than that.

Then you didn't find most of the RTW bugs. There were many, many very serious ones. M2TW has a few of serious ones as well, but most of those can be fixed even before the patch with tweaking. That was not the case with RTW. Surely you remember such things as suicidal generals, units getting stuck in siege towers, mass drownings on bridge battles, units getting stuck in testudo formation, protectorates draining your treasury dry, passive AI in city squares, ridiculous squalor, inability to upgrade bodyguards, AI tendency to use tons of tiny fleets, no command stars for admirals...

I've looked at the buglists and I've convinced myself. RTW was far worse on release.

Nelson

03-23-2007, 15:29

whodat

03-23-2007, 15:34

My, what an interesting series of replies and comments.

First of all, just checked the update thread on totalwar.com, no further comments from CA/Sega since the notice regarding they were fixing a new bug they found. Like I said originally, I would expect to see it sometime next week now, unless the bug they found is causing a major rewrite of codes. I am sure when they know something, they will keep us informed as to a new patch release date.

Now, I have to throw in my 2 cents. MTW2 has the potential of being a great game, but isn't there yet. It is not unplayable in it's current state, just annoying in that after I fell in love with MTW, I anticipated even more fun with MTW2. IF, and I repeat If, the major combat bugs are fixed and characters can perform as advertised, then this game stay on my shelf for a long time.

But this game's CD is not coffee coaster material. Compared to other games and sequels that came out with HUGE hype and were major disappointments (can I mention Master of Orion III and Temple of Elemental Evil - want to talk about unplayable out of the box?) this game is heads above that category.

I bought into the industry review hype and got all excited to play MTW2. I should have remembered that reviewers; don't have much time to review in depth if they are going to publish anywhere close to the game launch; will often take a KNOWN AND PROVEN publisher's info on the game at face value; seem to value eye candy too highly; often don't dive deeply into the mechanics; and rarely play a game out to the end. You can get far better reviews from a game's forum within 2 weeks of it's launch.

I have been playing computer games since I got my first Apple IIE, and was playing strategic board games for years before that. Believe me, I have seen games come out that were such dogs that there should have been a flea collar in the game box. MTW2 ain't one of them. Yeah, it would be nice to get a game that is so perfect on launch it never needs a patch. It would also be nice to have peace on earth, end world hunger, a car in every garage, and hit the lottery every week. So have a little more patience and let's all send positive vibes so the programmers get it right with this patch.

TinCow

03-23-2007, 15:46

Ok, back on topic. I do have a question about the patch fix list. The list includes the following AI fixes:

• AI does not deploy outside of enemy gates.
• Siege AI is not passive.
• AI now effectively assaults 2nd tier of a Fortress.
• Attacking Siege AI concentrates on taking the settlement rather than chasing down units outside the settlement.
• Enemy AI reacts to being bombarded with Trebuchets while inside a settlement.
• Siege AI now more difficult to defeat if player places missile units outside the walls.
• AI controls it units more effectively in a Citadel
• Remaining AI army now advances to use siege equipment
• AI now responds to missiles when sieging settlements
• AI responds more quickly to gates that have been opened by Spies (while sieging).
• Enemy AI effectively attacks when player's units in a settlement square
• Enemy AI now utilises spare rams

I cannot tell from this whether the bolded fixes refer to attacking or defending AI. "Siege AI" seems to read like the AI that controls attacking a player-held settlement. But if that's the case, why do they call it simply "AI" and "Enemy AI" in the italicized fixes? Essentially what I want to know is... does the passive AI fix apply to attacking, defending, or both?

Sarsfield

03-23-2007, 15:51

Hi folks,

first post and all. Sorry if it oversteps the mark but the debate on here has induced me to post. (I throw myself on the mods' mercy m'Lud...)

I've been playing TW games since 2003 and may I say, I've enjoyed then all (including the current one) immensely and I hope that CA keep on making games of this type for some time to come as it is not hyperbole to say that they have raised the bar for strategy games in a very real way. I have no vested interest in criticising them and the issues I relate here have application for many other games and publishers/developers.

Right, disclaimer inserted I shall proceed. That M2TW was released in essentially an unfinished state is shocking but given the industry context, hardly surprising (anyone who's played FarCry will know what I mean...). It's all about getting the product to market and because there has yet to be any sort of proper legal test case on this issue developers and publishers know that we consumers haven't a leg to stand on. They have our money, we've bought the product and now we are relying on their good faith to sort out the problems. May I say that I have no doubt that CA and Sega genuinely want to fix the game, I would imagine they are as passionate about the series as we are but the fact remains that they'll take their time, there is no imperative to sort it out, the vast majority of us will not only continue playing but will buy the next iteration unquestioningly.

In part, this is our own fault. If we as consumers sent out the message that we will not accept unfinished games by not buying them until they are properly patched then pub/devs would get the message quick smart. I've done that with M2TW, I whiled away the last few months playing Company of Heroes and Anno 1701 because I played M2TW at Christmas and found it too annoying for sustained play. I rather thought that there would have been a second patch by now but then, anybody who remembers the fiasco of the RTW 1.2 patch would no doubt smile wryly. At the moment, the wise move appears to be; give a game six months before buying (it's cheaper that way too!).

On the developer side there is a very obvious solution too: mass public betas. You don't need to look far here to find enthusiastic, technically proficient fans willing to help out in their droves. The issues that plague the game we all love could have been expunged for very little cost and far more comprehensively than with the more traditional testing model. It's win/win. Maybe I'm missing something here so if I'm being myopic or naive, please let me know!

To finish off, a little anecdote. I was playing as the Sacsanaigh against the Scots, there was a battle on the slopes down to the North Sea outside York. The weather was a typical North of England summer day - i.e. p***ing it down. I deployed my troops and pressed the battle button. I immediately pressed pause though and spent about ten minutes gawping at how Goddamn beautiful a vista CA had conjured up with a series of 1s and 0s. It was truly breath-taking. Then the charge bug kicked in.... I don't want this series to go the same way as the Aftermath, Aftershock, Afterlight series (I've stopped buying) because of silly bugs and dumb copy protection issues (one word: Starforce).

Games should ship in working order, no ifs buts or maybes. I don't care how much I like CA's work, buggy is buggy and it's not acceptable. If it's not ready, don't release. As a fan, I'm sympathetic to a delayed release date but I'm deeply annoyed by release day patches and late patches. Do it right, first time. It's the standard for every other producer of goods and services and it's about time the software industry towed the line. Ultimately though, the only thing that'll make them behave is out collective wallet...

Quickening

03-23-2007, 15:53

So theoretically, after this patch there should be no more problems with any two handed units right? Or any units at all for that matter.

Lusted

03-23-2007, 15:53

TinCow it refers to the ai used in sieges, so both attacking and defending.

So theoretically, after this patch there should be no more problems with any two handed units right? Or any units at all for that matter.

Theoretically yes as they're fixing the bugged 2 handed axe animation, fixing cav charges and the shield bug.

anders

03-23-2007, 16:05

sorry to ask a question that is probabaly already covered here, but what are the actual changes in the 1.2 patch? Is the 2-hand bug fixed and has anything been done to the pike tendency of discarding the pikes and marching straight into the enemy with pikes raised?

Quickening

03-23-2007, 16:07

Here is the list as it has been given

"Primary features for Update 2:

1) The Launcher
2) Fully implemented Hotseat mode
3) Cinematic Editor
4) Battle Editor (now fully functional)

Resolved Bugs/Issues:

AI
• Units do not clump together when told to complete a 180 degree turn.
• Janissary Musketeers now fire consistently.
• Enemy AI army formations in bridge battles now allow their own artillery to fire.
• Enemy cannons do not fire at unbreakable walls.
• Grouped archers out of ammo will attack enemy units in melee combat when ordered to do so.
• AI does not deploy outside of enemy gates.
• When defending an enemy settlement with multiple exits, taking your army out of the side/back door does not make it easier to defeat the enemy.
• Siege AI is not passive.
• Cavalry can now charge a spearman army.
• General's bodyguard unit now marches correctly outside castles.
• AI now effectively assaults 2nd tier of a Fortress.
• Sallying AI army now reacts properly to being assaulted from 2 sides
• Attacking Siege AI concentrates on taking the settlement rather than chasing down units outside the settlement.
• Generals are now more effective at chasing down routing units.
• Enemy AI reacts to being bombarded with Trebuchets while inside a settlement.
• Siege AI now more difficult to defeat if player places missile units outside the walls.
• AI controls it units more effectively in a Citadel
• AI artillery more decisive in its positioning
• Remaining AI army now advances to use siege equipment
• AI Cavalry can now flank a Spear Wall
• AI now responds to missiles when sieging settlements
• AI now crosses bridges to attack
• AI responds more quickly to gates that have been opened by Spies (while sieging).
• Units do not break formation when chasing routers
• Enemy AI effectively attacks when player's units in a settlement square
• Enemy AI now utilises spare rams
• Improved enemy AI response to stakes
• Shortened Siege attack timers
• Enemy AI will no-longer send out General's bodyguard on a suicide mission while defending

Diplomacy
• Improved responses to monetary offers
• Bribery attempts do not always fail after an unsuccessful first attempt
• Diplomatic 'Just Rejected' response no-longer to 'Not Interested' response to counter-offer, no matter how generous
• Aztecs now appear in the correct year (for diplomacy actions)
• Generals in a Crusade do not get inquisition
• Improved diplomacy mechanic - AI Factions now stick with alliances and/or attack 'more intelligently'

Crash
• Soft-locks in MP Lobby no-longer occur
• Host random hangs fixed
• Resolved issue with client CTD when host ends game that client is joining
• Auto-resolve Siege battle hangs fixed
• Siege tower catching fire no-longer causes random hangs
• Random hangs after loading Campaign save game

Pathfinding
• Battering Rams no-longer stuck in gates
• Ship movement area fixed
• Ram crew no-longer stuck between rams
• Northern European Castle terrain fixed to allow docking of towers
• Improved use of ladders
• Southern European Fortress wall fixed to allow docking of towers
• Improved the way units use Way-points
• Siege of Setenil slow-down tweaked
• Units no-longer become stuck on canyon walls on 'Canyon' map
• Units do not ascend/descend invisible ladders
• Units do not get stuck on Siege towers
• Cavalry pathfinding improved when sallying out from a Fortress
• Bridge battle pathfinding improved (units do not constantly reform)
• Citadel and Fortress paths fixed so that units can avoid assaulting inner walls
• Breach pathfinding tweaked

Combat
• Enemy spearmen do not charge with raised spears
• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry
• Defending units can no-longer enter a siege tower as soon as it docks with the walls

Mechanics
• Mouse Cursor position now updates when scrolling with the arrow keys.
• Assassination exploit fixed.
• Mission "Reinforce Region" now functions correctly
• Attacking an enemy army from inside a sieged settlement no-longer causes the enemy to lose all built siege equipment
• Fixed two family members (brothers) with the exact same name
• Rudder event now triggers at the correct time
• When an enemy sallies and is defeated you no-longer have to wait for the timer to run out in-order to win.
• Assassin mechanics tweaked
• Mercenary recruitment tweaked
• Diplomatic Information scroll updates correctly.
• Online replays now match
• Slowdown fixed on Desert Sanctuary
• Metallic Resource now support Mines
• Cavalry charges do not fail when charging skirmishing/moving units or if a knight is out of position
• Units can now withdraw on the Eifel Mountains Battle Map
• Construction queue exploits fixed
• The carroccio standard can now fit through the gate on a sally out battle.
• Southern European > Fortress: routing Enemy AI now leaving the map
• Printing press event triggers at the correct time
• Ladder docking/undocking tweaked
• Faction standings tweaked
• Priests no-longer convert to heretics if travelling on a fleet
• Hotseat Game-mode added
• Upper limit added on how long units stay in loose formation for.
• Traits/VnV triggers tweaked

Camera
• Camera height does not drop under bridge in River Po Custom Battle map.
• Camera does not drop below water's surface in Palm Beach, Andalusia and Italian Wars map/scenarios.
• Camera does not show the underneath of a bridge when General is killed on the bridge

Controls
• Drag Deploy functionality tweaked
• RTS camera functionality tweaked

Graphics
• Princess character now greyed out upon death on Family tree
• Venice battlemap ambient building placement tweaked
• Fixed issue with trees disappearing when panning camera
• Added paths to doorways in Southern European Large City
• Added paths to doorways in Southern European City
• Fixed minor lighting issue in Southern European City
• Fixed misaligned platforms in Southern European Large Town
• Tweaked Crusade Army banner
• Fixed texture gaps and unwelded verts on Middle Eastern Huge City buildings.
• Fixed incorrect Tower Path in Mesoamerican City
• Fixed path through wall in Mesoamerican City Wall
• Fixed floating buildings above the battle map in Aztec Gold Scenario
• Fixed floating spikes in Mountain Redoubt scenario
• Added correct image for Paladin ancillary
• Fixed grey reinforcement area that states that 'This army cannot fight in night battles' even though the current battle is not a night battle.
• Added correct image for Aztec Rebel - Native Archer
• Added correct image for Aztec Spearmen
• Fixed floating torches in SE Citadel courtyard
• Garrison quarters no-longer change to Town Guard when in Construction queue
• Armoury building image in construction queue no-longer changes to an armoury
• Fixed issue with Trebuchets sometimes disappearing when zooming in close
• Fixed maps have the winter option but don’t have winter texture on the battle map
• Night attack selection tick and reinforcements do not disappear if user selects night attack option and then views enemy army details.
• Fixed officers not animating while riding
• Removed trees in the water in The Battle of Otumba.

Deployment
• Units can no-longer be deployed on inaccessible sections of wall
• Fixed deployment issues with Southern European Wooden Castle on either side of the main gate.
• Units no-longer deployable in buildings in Mesoamerican City

Collision
• Ballista collision improved
• Southern European Citadel gate collision improved
• Middle Eastern Gatehouse collision improved
• Issues with units getting pushed into areas that can't be deployed into.
Battle Editor/Cinematic Editor
• Numerous issues with both editors fixed and improved so that they can be released for public use.

UI
• Mission scroll hotkey added
• Financial Details hotkey functionality and tooltip added
• Reveal/Advance advice hotkey functionality added
• Battle Tutorial Dismiss advice functionality added
• Magnifying glass added to Disaster Strikes scroll
• Princess appears correctly on family tree
• Chat Window errors fixed
• Family Tragedy scroll triggered correctly
• Console text appearance tweaked
• Now possible to launch game from autorun launcher
• Fine Grain time control added (accessible by holding Shift and clicking + and - on battle UI)

Save/Load
• Loading saved game of the same turn no-longer allows user to keep both allies when they declare war
• Russian and Czech autosave fixed

Audio
• Movement_Embark speech now triggered correctly
• Allies breaking through gates of citadel now triggers correct speech
• Battle ending in draw when timer runs out now triggers correct speech
• Campaign Map interface sounds added
• End Turn sound now fades out nicely
• Win/Lose music is now representative of the Faction
• Enemy King killed speech now triggered
• Enemy Reinforcements arrive speech now triggered correctly
• Player Army Tired Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Player Army Half Gone Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Enemy Army Half Gone Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Player Under Attack Idle Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Player Winning Combat Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Player Losing Combat Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Leaves Fleet speech now triggered correctly.
• Player Tide Of Battle Up Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Player Tide Of Battle Down Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Muslim Enemy General Killed Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Christian Enemy General Killed Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Allied General Captured Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• The "spy infiltrated our settlement" audio/speech is now played when "Start battle" is pressed during cutscene
• Correct region music plays when loading a saved campaign game.
• Added sound trigger for planting archer stakes in ground.
• Clicked-on characters on the Campaign Map no-longer stack their audio response if clicked multiple times.
• In the Historical battles, Battle of Otumba and the Battle of Hastings the music speeds up when you attack
• Other minor audio tweaks also carried out.

Text
• Minor grammar/spelling errors fixed

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)"

Lusted

03-23-2007, 16:07

Lets see shall we:

• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry

So thats the 2 handed bug fixed as the 2 handed axe animation was the bugged one.

TinCow

03-23-2007, 16:10

No need for multiple 1.2 threads. Merged.

anders

03-23-2007, 16:16

sorry, should have seen the existing tread. thanks for the answer!

SoxSexSax

03-23-2007, 18:18

What amuses me is the number of people in this thread telling me the game IS playable right now.

Spearmen units who are supposed to be defense 7 are actually defense 1...and that makes the battles "playable"?

Crusading armies surround their target and then stand their forever unless I (i.e. the player) does something...and that makes the campaign map "playable"?

Only if you don't need a challenge in your game is it playable. For me, enjoyment from a computer game is derived from the challenge in it, and M2TW has none right now. Hence, I consider it unplayable.

Rozanov

03-23-2007, 18:40

Unless I'm mistaken - no sign of the Timurid elephant artillery bug causing a CTD being addressed?

(1.1 patch does not cure it)

Bijo

03-23-2007, 20:15

That list is looking good. I'm curious to see how the game plays out with the patch installed.

Afro Thunder

03-23-2007, 20:28

What amuses me is the number of people in this thread telling me the game IS playable right now.

Spearmen units who are supposed to be defense 7 are actually defense 1...and that makes the battles "playable"?

Actually the spearmen would have a defense of -5, assuming that the shield is 6 points. That would explain the ridiculously fast battles, and how peasants can lay the smackdown on spearmen units. :thumbsdown:

(I hope I'm right about that subtraction thing, and not just pulling something out of my bum.)

Whacker

03-23-2007, 20:40

Further, I'd like to know what the hell CA included in this patch to make it six hundred and fifty megs???

Hollerbach

03-23-2007, 20:45

"Primary features for Update 2:

1) The Launcher
2) Fully implemented Hotseat mode
3) Cinematic Editor
4) Battle Editor (now fully functional)

I think it's the editors that are most of the 600+ Megs.

HoreTore

03-23-2007, 20:45

Thanks for the heads up. Has there been any word on whether the patch will be save game compatible?

I doubt it. In the feature list, they mention trait fixes, and if you change a few things in that file, you'll mess up the traits of an existing file. It's because of the way the engine reads that file, I think. They might fix that as well, but I really doubt it will be save game compatible.

alpaca

03-23-2007, 20:53

Yeah it's unlikely to be savegame compatible.
And as for the size: That's probably mainly media (although the cinematic editor supposedly comes in an external program, as well as the launcher tool, so they'll have a few megs, too): new videos, music tracks, pre-battle speeches, etc. - I hope ;)

pike master

03-23-2007, 21:41

that looks like the original list before sensai edited in the shield bug would be fixed line.

anyways what is the assasination exploit. i wish i knew it since my assasins could hardly kill anyone.

Whacker

03-23-2007, 22:24

that looks like the original list before sensai edited in the shield bug would be fixed line.

anyways what is the assasination exploit. i wish i knew it since my assasins could hardly kill anyone.

Open the console and type "IDDQD" then "IDKFA". Should work like a charm.

I think it's the editors that are most of the 600+ Megs.

Maybe, but I really find that hard to believe. A launcher is usually just going to be a single, very small executable. Battle editor? That was in the exe, unless they did something else. Cinematic editor? Hmmm maybe. Hotseat should also be a part of the main exe. I guess we shall see, though I suspect that what someone else is right, that there's more videos and stuff added as content.

/shrug

Lord_hazard

03-23-2007, 22:42

Hmm I dont see any "shield bug fixed", hope they didnt miss that one. Nah what am I ranting about, ofcourse they fixed it...right?

Lusted

03-23-2007, 22:43

Yupp, it's not in the list but it's been confirmed it will be fixed.

Lord_hazard

03-23-2007, 22:50

Yeah:) Just my pre-patch jibbers. Dont mind me:)

Carl

03-23-2007, 23:12

The space taken up will be down to the new animations for 2-handers.

Whacker

03-23-2007, 23:28

So Carl, you're basically trying to imply that this was all a ploy by CA to save on costs by not having to distribute the game on more DVDs then? :inquisitive: :idea2:

alpaca

03-24-2007, 00:52

Nah new animation files would only take a few KB, they just move bones around :skull:
Must be something else

sapi

03-24-2007, 01:48

Just think for a moment how much space the unpacked game files take up.

Compare that to a 600mb update and you'll find that, taking compression into account, a whole lot of those files are being changed and/or completely replaced.

I sincerely doubt that the editors take up much room, nor the animations, but even compressed M2TW takes up 7.69gb - 600mb is really nothing when compared to that.

Whacker

03-24-2007, 01:59

Compare that to a 600mb update and you'll find that, taking compression into account, a whole lot of those files are being changed and/or completely replaced.

Aaahhh, herein lies the rub. If memory serves, CA's patches simply replace files completely as opposed to patching. Of course I have nothing to base this next bit on and it's pure conjection and assumption, but I bet if they used something like RTPatch or another tool, they could probably cut that 600+ meg way way down to something smaller, something much more palatable for our low-bandwidth users.

sapi

03-24-2007, 02:07

Caliburn

03-24-2007, 02:15

Does anyone know what "Cavalry can now charge a spearman army" means in this context? To my experience, they already can - knights can pretty easily decimate elite spearman armies by charging head on the fully formed and braced infantry (not those pikes etc. of course). Does this mean that they'll actively flank or something?

It's a good thing many of the problems with charging are taken care of, and the list does look promising, especially the faction backstab tweak - this is what we've been waiting for at least from the first MTW, if not earlier.

Not to mention hotseat.

JCoyote

03-24-2007, 03:02

Things should be decent after the patch. This patch should get everything playing the way the sales pitch indicated.

But I haven't played the game since before Valentine's Day, because I was anticipating a patch within a week or so. And I've kept back from playing cause I keep thinking... Well it's just ONE more week. LOL. Silly me.

As far as me having bought it early, I specifically waited til after the first patch to buy so I wouldn't be hit with the biggest bugs. Silly me again.

As far as CA "already having it's money"? Well there's double edged sword there. The edge that cuts Sega is there are over a dozen players I know personally who wanted to buy the game that I have specifically told NOT TO until I can say if the 1.2 patch will fix things so it won't frustrate them. That's $50 in retail sold, that's locked up over $600 in retail til things get ironed out. Some of those people will never get the game after things they've seen on my screen. Sega needs to know this IS costing them sales.

Whacker

03-24-2007, 03:24

Actually, i prefer it this way - RTPatch has never, and i repeat, never patched any of my games without throwing up errors about missing and changed files, even on a fresh install.

And this way there's compatibility with every version of the game, not just those patched to 1.1

That's kind of amusing, my experience has been the complete and total opposite. The only times I've ever had problems is when I forgot to re-copy the old .exes back over, as I tend to use nocd patches extensively because I friggin' hate swapping out discs constantly. (I play a lot of games simultaneously. Please note that I do not condone piracy and am referring to games that I have purchased.) RTPatch or whatever is of course going to be slower, but the size saved is often worth it in my view. Perhaps your experiences are from localized game copies and patches that... didn't have as much effort put into them? /shrug

@ JCoyote

Add $150 to the mix for me, 3 of my friends are not buying this game until I give them the nod. Of course this is just two of us speaking, and we shouldn't claim to represent anything beyond ourselves and the people we speak of. But I do agree though, there is an important message here that for every "word of mouth" sale, there are going to be some no-sales as I'll call them.

:balloon2:

Edit -

\/\/\/\/\/ Understood, put that in there because it was relevant to the discussion at hand, no more need be said on it. Perhaps you should just move to the states and get the nice shiny non-localized software like there rest of us. :grin:

sapi

03-24-2007, 03:32

@Whacker - nothing personal, but we don't talk of no-cd patches here :no: especially since cd images work much better and dont' cause any problems

bf2 - clean install - failed (but still displayed as patched)
oblivion - failed
supcom - failed (but still displayed as patched in mp)
etc.

It's very annoying, and I'm happy that CA is doing things this way (especially as i'll have access to a free local mirror of the files in 3dgamers and likely IGN)

pike master

03-24-2007, 04:34

the problem i see now is a split in the multiplayer community like they did in mtw over the cav swipe.

right now most of us complain about the swipe and push through but you would be surprised by the number of people who depend on that to win games. and would be at a disadvantage playing a game such as mtw/vi where you cant go around swiping units.

i would be most positive to believe their will be some major rewrites over some program files concerning animations. but we will see.

i dont see why they would deny it. they have already admitted to many mistakes there would be no harm to admitting to more. but most of 600 megs containing battle and cinematic editors along with the fixes is suspicious.

you would think all efforts would have been put forward to fix game issues before they would have concentrated on such a large editor addition.

interesting topic indeed.

Lusted

03-24-2007, 12:39

Well they already had the editors ready, they are what they used to make historical battles and trailers, so they've just added them into the game.

alpaca

03-24-2007, 14:08

Well they already had the editors ready, they are what they used to make historical battles and trailers, so they've just added them into the game.
And probably gave them a better interface (dev tools are often command-line monsters or have a very basic interface with a console for added comfort)

JCoyote

03-24-2007, 14:12

And I doubt the editors are all that big, maybe 10 or 12 mb each. Usually editing programs are relatively small, it's all the media files they manipulate that are huge. Also, I doubt the editors are particularly polished or feature laiden... most such development editors aren't... which can cut down tremendously on program size. So of the 650 MB, maybe only 50 or so are those editors.

People worried about the size will be surprised an "editor free" version wouldn't be that much smaller. Although, if an editor free download was under 512 MB, it might be worth releasing because there are lots of cheap USB keys that size to put it on.

icek

03-25-2007, 15:10

and what about guild bug?? Did they even look on it?

nookie

03-25-2007, 23:28

i cant wait... I loved rome, enjoyed the barbarian expansion and waited for total war.... And waited... And waited... FINALLY GOT M2TW.... Loaded it up and did my normal thing... Played it conservative early putting every dime into armor and ground troops.. I built an awesome war machine... I took my heavy venetian infantry into battle agains an inferior army and barely won.. I also picked up the bad habbit of leaving nothing but archers and crossbowmen in my towns in hostile area and enjoyed killing the enemy by the hundred (at first)... the last time i played was 2 months ago... what broke the camels back was when i sallied out against a superior french army - they had everything except artillery... tons of calvalry.... I salllied out and killed there archers with my horde of archers/crossbowmen... i then completely surrounded them with all types of missle troops... i got super close to... my crossbowmen located behind the calvalry could have been whiped out in one charge... But the AI just sat there... i killed off about a thousand men with MASSIVE amounts of bolts and arrows, the carnage was horrific.... i sat in amazement and when my archers ran out of arrows i eventually got them to go in there and rout the survivors.. funny - but not fun...

I have not played since.... I saw the post about the patch perhaps coming out so i reloaded total war and now i am all excited - but no patch...

i cant wait to take a superior armored and skilled army against a numerically superior army and win the battle because i did the right thing... Not pick on the stupid AI.....

also looking forward to alliances sticking... I use venice - i am stuck in the middle of the boot surrounded on every side by enemies... Allies are sooo important... it got so bad that the pope attacked me when we where allies...

i dont think they need any graphic tweaks... The game is stunning... I just cant wait for strategy to mean something....

and now we just have to wait....

nookie

03-25-2007, 23:44

i also cant wait for my friend to see what the game is really like... He has been playing for about 2 months... When this patch drops he is going to come in saying"wow - this game is tough" I cant wait for my glistening venetian heavys to be wreaking havoc over all of europe

Bijo

03-25-2007, 23:50

Heh heh, that story sounds familiar, nookie. Well, at least a part of it. I stopped playing for months and when I saw the mention of the new patch a while ago already I've finally started it up today with patch 1. I've gotten reasonably excited about it.

pike master

03-26-2007, 02:01

an electrician i worked for once would install speaker wires throughout someones house even though he was never asked to do this.

the reason was after the home was finished he would often times find the homeowners asking him if he knew someone who could run a sound system in their home.

he replied i can do it but it will cost you such and such. so all he had to do was go in punch some holes in the walls pull out the wire and hook em up.easy money.

11 gigabytes for the game! im sure they have a lot of stuff asleep in there waiting to be brought out.

that 650 megs has something in it more than a battle and cinematic editor.

im not sure what they are up to but as long as it fixes the battle field animations and unit performance it will satisfy me.

JFC

03-26-2007, 10:49

@MAD CAT MECH I dunno mate, I don't subscribe to your conspiracy theory. After all the Patch is free.

Odin

03-26-2007, 14:05

@MAD CAT MECH I dunno mate, I don't subscribe to your conspiracy theory. After all the Patch is free.

I'm with this guy. While it is a mamoth patch I dont think there is going to be anything mind blowing here, but I suspect that there might be more scenarios?

Long and short is a little, blah.... Much prefer being able to pick from early, mid, and high (ala MTW). I dont know how much megs it would take to intro that kind of change, but short of that I dont expect much in the way of new features.

CA traditionally saves those for expansions.

Carl

03-26-2007, 14:44

Long and short is a little, blah.... Much prefer being able to pick from early, mid, and high (ala MTW). I dont know how much megs it would take to intro that kind of change, but short of that I dont expect much in the way of new features.

Without changing the basic engine I don't belive such a thing could be implimented as it would require that the game was able to select from more than 1 set of files. Changing most of the stuff would littrially require that several fles be altered, so you'd need more than one vershion of each file for it to work.

Foz

03-26-2007, 16:20

I'm with this guy. While it is a mamoth patch I dont think there is going to be anything mind blowing here, but I suspect that there might be more scenarios?
Shields working correctly by itself will be mind blowing... and then there's everything else to consider too. Here's a few more that jump out at me:

• When defending an enemy settlement with multiple exits, taking your army out of the side/back door does not make it easier to defeat the enemy.
• Siege AI is not passive.
• Sallying AI army now reacts properly to being assaulted from 2 sides
• Units do not break formation when chasing routers
• Improved diplomacy mechanic - AI Factions now stick with alliances and/or attack 'more intelligently'
• Improved use of ladders
• Citadel and Fortress paths fixed so that units can avoid assaulting inner walls
• Breach pathfinding tweaked
• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry
• When an enemy sallies and is defeated you no-longer have to wait for the timer to run out in-order to win.
• Cavalry charges do not fail when charging skirmishing/moving units or if a knight is out of position
• Traits/VnV triggers tweaked
• Drag Deploy functionality tweaked

I've personally experienced (and been annoyed by) just about all of these problems, and have to say that the game should be considerably different with all of them fixed. It might be more mind blowing than people expect... just not in a "new content" kind of way.

Odin

03-26-2007, 16:33

Shields working correctly by itself will be mind blowing... and then there's everything else to consider too. Here's a few more that jump out at me:

• When defending an enemy settlement with multiple exits, taking your army out of the side/back door does not make it easier to defeat the enemy.
• Siege AI is not passive.
• Sallying AI army now reacts properly to being assaulted from 2 sides
• Units do not break formation when chasing routers
• Improved diplomacy mechanic - AI Factions now stick with alliances and/or attack 'more intelligently'
• Improved use of ladders
• Citadel and Fortress paths fixed so that units can avoid assaulting inner walls
• Breach pathfinding tweaked
• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry
• When an enemy sallies and is defeated you no-longer have to wait for the timer to run out in-order to win.
• Cavalry charges do not fail when charging skirmishing/moving units or if a knight is out of position
• Traits/VnV triggers tweaked
• Drag Deploy functionality tweaked

I've personally experienced (and been annoyed by) just about all of these problems, and have to say that the game should be considerably different with all of them fixed. It might be more mind blowing than people expect... just not in a "new content" kind of way.

Fair enough, however in the context of size of the patch there has yet to be an explination of what makes up all those megs. While that isnt an excuse for the items above not being in the game now, it will hardly be mindblowing due to the mods that directly address these issues now.

I understand not everyone likes mods or wants them, but the difference between 1.01 and 1.01 with a fixer mod (ltc, or carls) is quite noticable, right now.

Kommodus

03-26-2007, 16:44

• Siege AI is not passive.

Sounds nice.

• Units do not break formation when chasing routers

Finally! This will be a much-appreciated improvement.

• Improved diplomacy mechanic - AI Factions now stick with alliances and/or attack 'more intelligently'

Very nice. Attacks seem a bit random currently.

• Improved use of ladders

So they might have a use now?

• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry

This is probably the #1 complained-about bug, so this will be a much-appreciated fix.

• Cavalry charges do not fail when charging skirmishing/moving units or if a knight is out of position

Hallelujah! The current behavior can be extremely annoying at times.

I agree that this patch will be a huge improvement. All I wish is that some of these bugs had been fixed a little sooner.

Carl

03-26-2007, 17:04

it will hardly be mindblowing due to the mods that directly address these issues now.

Many of those battlefeild AI things listed have not and cannot be adressed by modders, so actually it will be VERY diffrent from the various Mods out their.

Quickening

03-26-2007, 17:18

• Traits/VnV triggers tweaked

What does this one mean exactly?

Ive never been one to use mods ever until yesterday when I tried Lusted's work. Superb job. If the vanilla game plays anything near that after this patch I'll be an even happier man.

nookie

03-26-2007, 17:30

it will be nice to stop escorting foes off the battlemap - i have jumped familly members numerous times hoping for the quick kill - i surround them and the familly member just squirts out... unreal... Atleast now i will have a chance to run him down instead of making sure he gets off the battle map ok...

???????? Was i reading this post rigth, will my spearmen be more effective against horse...

i cant wait... i am switching to company of heros if this does not come out soon..

alex9337

03-26-2007, 23:19

I love this game. Haven't stopped playing it since its release last fall. Yes, have to overlook a few things, but still immensly enjoyable.

Hope the patch comes out this week! Should be great with all the fixes.

Still haven't seen anything definitive about fixing the tower bug, though?

Quickening

03-26-2007, 23:20

Still haven't seen anything definitive about fixing the tower bug, though?

The one where cannon towers are ballista towers and vice versa?

alex9337

03-26-2007, 23:52

yes, that one.

SoxSexSax

03-27-2007, 00:49

Shields working correctly by itself will be mind blowing... and then there's everything else to consider too. Here's a few more that jump out at me:

• When defending an enemy settlement with multiple exits, taking your army out of the side/back door does not make it easier to defeat the enemy.
• Siege AI is not passive.
• Sallying AI army now reacts properly to being assaulted from 2 sides
• Units do not break formation when chasing routers
• Improved diplomacy mechanic - AI Factions now stick with alliances and/or attack 'more intelligently'
• Improved use of ladders
• Citadel and Fortress paths fixed so that units can avoid assaulting inner walls
• Breach pathfinding tweaked
• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry
• When an enemy sallies and is defeated you no-longer have to wait for the timer to run out in-order to win.
• Cavalry charges do not fail when charging skirmishing/moving units or if a knight is out of position
• Traits/VnV triggers tweaked
• Drag Deploy functionality tweaked

I've personally experienced (and been annoyed by) just about all of these problems, and have to say that the game should be considerably different with all of them fixed. It might be more mind blowing than people expect... just not in a "new content" kind of way.

x2!

I've been rather negative about the game both here and on the official forum, but I REALLY want them to sort it out and make it the game it should have been. There aren't as many major issues as you might think, it's just that one or two of them (namely shield bug and siege pathfinding) are critical, and by themselves spoil the game. I'm really hopeful that 1.2 will reignite my enthusiasm for the game (I've tried the problem fixer, and while it is significantly better in field battles then vanilla, the siege pathfinding normally scuppers my evening).

Hoplite7

03-27-2007, 01:49

GOD I CANT WAIT FOR THIS PATCH! RELEASE IT ALREADY!

It's late, so should we expect further additions/fixes/quality? Anyone know when we can download it?

How long should the download take on a fast connection?

Quickening

03-27-2007, 01:59

HoreTore

03-27-2007, 02:02

Without changing the basic engine I don't belive such a thing could be implimented as it would require that the game was able to select from more than 1 set of files. Changing most of the stuff would littrially require that several fles be altered, so you'd need more than one vershion of each file for it to work.

There is another way of doing it; simply make a descr_strat for high, and one for late. Then simply change to whichever one you want...

sapi

03-27-2007, 08:09

Lusted

03-27-2007, 10:01

There is another way of doing it; simply make a descr_strat for high, and one for late. Then simply change to whichever one you want...

Not really you'd have to change the building file too change what units are available for each campaign, as well as other files to balance things.

Callahan9119

03-27-2007, 10:12

not on topic, but nice mod lusted, iv been looking for a way to use the shield/2h fix with ultimate ai mod, thanks

Afro Thunder

03-27-2007, 12:53

• Traits/VnV triggers tweaked

Hopefully that means no more disappearing traits when you get just one point in an anti-trait.

Terry

03-27-2007, 15:01

I've been tempted to use the Lusted mod, but I think I might wait till the patch comes out..

Terry

whodat

03-27-2007, 15:23

Well, as of 0900 CDT this morning, there is no new info on the patch release showing up on the totalwar.com patch thread.

Hang in there guys :dizzy2:

Callahan9119

03-27-2007, 17:28

I've been tempted to use the Lusted mod, but I think I might wait till the patch comes out..

Terry

prolly be a few more weeks bud, lusteds mod is pretty good, but doesnt seem to have carls fix for units holding formation, like when cav chase routers...my only complaint

you might as well get it, could prolly play a few campaigns before the patch is out

Kryptonitus

03-27-2007, 17:59

At this point I am like a kid waiting on Christmas morning.

Static

03-27-2007, 18:02

I decided to not wait for the patch, i'm trying Rome TW Europa Barbarorum in the meantime. This game for me unfortunately was unplayable. I finished a campaign as the English very easily because of all the siege bugs.

I might not even play after 1.2, I might wait for 1.3 or whatever, just because there's soo many bugs that there will be still some after this patch, and not enough time will be spent fine tuning certain game mechanics like diplomacy I fear.

Foz

03-27-2007, 19:14

prolly be a few more weeks bud, lusteds mod is pretty good, but doesnt seem to have carls fix for units holding formation, like when cav chase routers...my only complaint
It's a very easy fix to do yourself. See this link for the info:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1468555&highlight=descr_pathfinding#post1468555

Carl

03-27-2007, 20:19

And all Modders have my permishion to use that change if they want to. SO if Lusted wants to include the change e's free to do so. (Just in case he didn't know).

Callahan9119

03-27-2007, 20:28

your good people carl, i also got EB for rtw, but after lusteds mod mtw2 is rather fun aside from the lack of carls formation fix

you two should get together after the patch and make a nice simple mod, because as you know CA wont do what alot of us want to do, and you could do good things without making a total conversion mod :yes:

i like lusted's loading screens :beam: get some good nightbattle shots of siege blasting walls in the moonlite :yes:

Carl

03-27-2007, 20:40

i like lusted's loading screens get some good nightbattle shots of siege blasting walls in the moonlite

They are good, I'll have to ask him if I can have versions without his logo on for my Rebuild-ProblemFixer as I like them too but don't have the comp to run the game at such good graphics settings. Plus i'm not much of an artist LOL.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 20:46

I'm enjoying the game with Carl's Rebuilt-ProblemFixer 1.23. And the next version will be even better. It's an overhaul, though, as it definitely moves around some things. But basic ProblemFixer is great for just cleaning up some of the issues.

I love faster agents (they just take to long to get places in vanilla), have gotten used to the rearranging of tech trees (castles are the main source of field units, cities make garrisons... and nothing but peasants from walls), and he's gaining ground on getting the factions to be more interesting in how they do as AI-run beasts (even if Sicily is comatose!) Since sacking is a lot less profitable, you can't simply blitz, using your conquests to fuel your building program. You can still blitz on a local level for a while though, just can't sustain it game long, I don't believe. Diplomacy 'holds' a bit better, but isn't as cheap as vanilla to bribe people to like you, and religion matters more. If you're Muslim, forget trying to stay allied with any Catholic faction for long. It hurts their global rep and yours, and it costs a lot more. And you can't buy off the Pope as a Muslim, except for a short period. He just isn't going to wuv you for long unless you give him everything. Then he'll pray for you. ~;)

But... I want to see the monkey wrench of the patch. With luck it will make a perfect game. (Ah... what a nice dream! Oops, wake up!) Okay, realistically it will fix some of the most glaring problems. So those "fixes" can be backed out of mods. And it will probably rebalance some things, so some of the balancing efforts will have to be removed or retuned too. But I suspect there still will be very fertile ground for adjusting the game to community tastes. Things like having castle be more important as production centers, and more costly to support comparatively.

And all the work at modding pre-patch 1.2 is also teaching the community a lot about the process, so adjsuting to the new patch will go much quicker and smoother, I suspect.

So, bring it on!

Meanwhile, back to my kazaks. Conquering the world as Russia, one steppe at a time!

TeutonicKnight

03-27-2007, 20:55

What a way to tease people. I don't think 1.23 is publicly available yet, is it?

That's ok. I can wait.

For about five minutes. :)

Divine Wind

03-27-2007, 21:20

Barry Fitzgerald

03-27-2007, 21:44

Ive havent played this game (or visited this forum) since about Christmas time. The bugs eventually just became so bloody annoying I had to stop. Ive been waiting all this time for a patch so I can get started and actually enjoy it again like I did in the first few days of buying it.

Im really surpised that we are waiting for the second patch still...its rather disapointing, espicially when the initial plan was for it to be out in late Feb.

You can say that again...like you I shelved the game xmas time..I played once since...just a quick battle..but the enemy AI was so bad.....I almost cried into my dvd case!

Bad enough we get uber bugged game.......worse we wait so long for the patch.......but with a massive size...its sure to fix many issues..we hope. But that only confirms what a bad state the original code was in 750mb? Cmon CA..........this makes you look really bad.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 21:44

What a way to tease people. I don't think 1.23 is publicly available yet, is it?

That's ok. I can wait.

For about five minutes. :)

just pretend to beta test it like I do! ~;)

Lusted

03-27-2007, 21:57

Cmon CA..........this makes you look really bad

So you'd prefer them to release a smaller patch that made them look better?

And in any case i would have though showing they are suporting the game by releasing such a big patch would make them look better.

vonsch

03-27-2007, 22:03

TB666

03-27-2007, 23:08

Well this patch seems to wanna be a quality patch otherwise it would have been released already.
I do hope that they won't run into anymore problems with testing the patch but if they do then I hope they will postpone the patch and fix the issue.
There is no need for a rushed and bad patch.

Carl

03-27-2007, 23:22

What a way to tease people. I don't think 1.23 is publicly available yet, is it?

That's OK. I can wait.

For about five minutes. :)

:laugh4:

No i'm afraid not, but I am still looking for BETA testers so if anyone wants to volunteer, just follow the link in my Sig and put your name down.

TBH what we've spent the first 4 revisions doing is just getting the new tech trees and rebels and basic faction balancing done. V1.23 is really the first one in which we got most things right France/HRE/Portugal/all Italian factions are still issues as AI factions ATM, but where getting their a bit at a time. The trouble is we still need to test many factions with a player at the helm and as a result we've still got a long way to go before everything is working right.

To give you an idea of how much vonsch is enjoying himself though, he played through till after the third wave of Mongols showed up in his Turks V1.22 campaign. He's never previously in any mod or vanilla campaign even got as far as the first wave of Mongols. SO that should give you an idea of how much fun vonsch is having:smash:.

Based on current form I expect V1.26 to be the earliest likliy Public release.

FactionHeir

03-27-2007, 23:54

It's a very easy fix to do yourself. See this link for the info:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1468555&highlight=descr_pathfinding#post1468555

Hmm interesting. Wouldn't this also increase the strain on the processor though due to extra calcs?

On an unrelated note but also in that file, what's that silhouette for and why is it disabled :book:

Hoplite7

03-28-2007, 00:05

Anyone have a realistic estimate of when the patch will be out? They said it should be ready a few days ago. Educated guesses only :). Does anyone here have any connections???

FactionHeir

03-28-2007, 00:09

Probably not until next friday is my best guess.

SoxSexSax

03-28-2007, 03:53

Ca is really good compared to many developers in this respect. The problem is the whole industry (and many others) is focused on meeting delivery expectations (ie, getting product out the door, despite flaws) and not quality.

And at root, the problem is us. "We want it and we want it now!" Not, "we want it right the first time, even if it takes longer!"

I disagree. CA aren't the worst but they are nowhere near the best. Slightly below average is where I would place them in a "patch promptness/content" sense. In my eyes there are at least 2 absolutely crucial issues with 1.1, and the amount of time it has taken CA to fix them is definitely approaching the "unacceptable" mark.

FYI, Relic have released 2 full patches and 1 hotfix for Company of Heroes between the last M2 patch and now.

PutCashIn

03-28-2007, 05:30

CA and SEGA may still be testing out each others business plans (like a couple of sweaty teenage lovers) whereas THQ and Relic are established partners (like theyre deciding weather to have a third kid or not...).

sapi

03-28-2007, 07:54

Enough

When the patch comes out, then we can discuss it - this is achieving nothing and just leading to constant frustrations.