Remember Spartan hoplites from RTW??

[zstajerski]

Do you remember them, the best unit ever in RTW...
maybe I thought of them because of the movie 300, but besides that...:
i really miss that in M2TW...
The Spartan hoplites were the elite in RTW, but here in M2tw rthere are no such really elite units..
I think that historaclly acurate they realy were non such ELITES, but: also to be accurate:
Knight templar should be available as dismounted and be given an extra bonus defenzive and offenzive, because:
In reallity; they fought most of their battles dismounted,
and should have an extra plus because:
they were like priest, prayed 5 times a day, no sex, "poverty" (in real they were really richer than kings), they trained the rest of the day... When fighting they were told never to reatred unless surraunded by at least 3 times thier numbers....
They would really deserve the status of really elite troops in M2TW
It would be hist. accurate and more fun to play teh game with such elite troops:smash:

[Gith]

I feel that knights were a lot more elite than the impression given by the game.. eventually you can just form whole armies with them as the standard infantry. I can think of a few units i would consider elite off hand - Janissaries, Gothic Knights, Forlorn Hope, etc..

[HoreTore]

Well, if you think of "elite" as in very powerful, then M2TW has a lot of them. Order knights should absolutely not be any better, they are IMO too good right now, as there is no need to get any other knight at all once you have them...

As for powerful units; you have janissaries, most late knights, the awesome dismounted order knights in the levant, Camel Gunners, Conquistadors, Cossack Musketeers, Dvors, the list goes on...

If you mean elite as in very rare, then I can think of only one unit, really, the dismounted order knights.

EDIT: Oh, and the elephants, of course...

[Callahan9119]

300 sucked, went with my gf and couldnt wait for the end

i'v read about thermopylae since i was 16, if i had to hear that scottish guy remind us all they were spartans 1 more time i was gonna puke

ugh not to mention goat men playing flutes and fish men as executioners

the leonidas in that crappy movie should have let that hunchback fight in his army, seeing as they never really fought in a phalanx anyway :inquisitive:

spartans were good in rtw, but so were lots of units, hell...the warhounds were as good as them if you had any tactical sense

if you think there are no elite units in m2 then u havnt used camel gunners, cossacks adventuros etc

vanilla rtw was a farce anyway

[Monarch]

In mp at least, theres a variety of elites. Anything mounted and without a shield is more effective than a spartan hoplite was in rome :inquisitive:

[zstajerski]

300 sucked, went with my gf and couldnt wait for the end

i'v read about thermopylae since i was 16, if i had to hear that scottish guy remind us all they were spartans 1 more time i was gonna puke

ugh not to mention goat men playing flutes and fish men as executioners

the leonidas in that crappy movie should have let that hunchback fight in his army, seeing as they never really fought in a phalanx anyway :inquisitive:

spartans were good in rtw, but so were lots of units, hell...the warhounds were as good as them if you had any tactical sense

if you think there are no elite units in m2 then u havnt used camel gunners, cossacks adventuros etc

vanilla rtw was a farce anyway

300 sucked as a hist. movie (liked 300 spartans from 1970 or someting much more)

But my point was:

Well i played RTW, BI (all factions to victory) and Alexander..

And vanilla RTW was no farce, still it is better (considering "heavy" bugs) than M2TW 1.1 with LCD or any other mod (hope 1.2 will allow to play vanilla again)...

Play a game of vanilla RTW now after you played M2TW for a while, and nevermind the graphics!!! just the game experiance!!!
I mean when in RTW in some unit it sad that it has an advantage in woods, or no eaven better:
lets say: unit (a) has defenzive stats 16 and an attribute "long or very long spears" & unit (b) also spearmen have an attack of lets say 20 ( althoug only spartan hopotes had 20)
unit (a) would win in RTW but not in M2TW!!!!

RTW had more sense of reality!!! Although graphics are now more than "kewl" :smash: the best graphics ever!!!

Altough my point was still not this but:
That M2TW missess real ELITE units (in attack and def. stats combined)
although Dismounted Knights Templar would be the hist. correct choice for an unit like SPARTAN HOPLITES were in RTW!!!

And every game is more fun when you have the alternate to defeat 2000 men with 300 :)

EDIT:
"spartans were good in rtw, but so were lots of units, hell..."
I only had one unit playing TW games so far fighting (not surrounded and fighting till death) that fought till the last men!
Eaven more; after withstanding the frontal charge of cavalry and infantry i abandoned the phalangs formation and chased down all routing infantry (eaven skirmishers)!!!!

In the end I had about 5 units of Spartan Hop. ,3 archers (worse than mediocere for greece) and 1 ballista in every city!! It was enough to defend owerwhelming numbers :)

Tell me of one unit type in M2TW that can do that!?!

Along the bugfixes, thats what we need :)

[Furious Mental]

You went to 300 expecting to see an accurate historical depiction of the Battle of Thermopylae? Rofl

[Gith]

Plenty of the units in this game pack a nice punch. In LTC 2.1 I've had units of dismounted imperial knights kill 100-150 men per battle and usually average a 6 to 1 or higher kill ratio. If that isn't elite, what is? Balance and realism also have to be maintained. It seems like what you really want is just a medieval uber jedi unit ~:rolleyes: A unit that can withstand a cavalry and infantry charge, then move out of phalanx and chase down skirmishers hardly seems balanced nor realistic. And as for killing 2000 with 300 it is easily doable in M2TW

[HoreTore]

The dismounted templar knights ARE in the game. They are available in the levant. They have 16 attack and 22 defense, if I remember correctly. Very, very good.

you also have the various assassins, hashishim, sherwood archers and battlefield assassins. They can easily eat any other unit for dinner.

[Callahan9119]

You went to 300 expecting to see an accurate historical depiction of the Battle of Thermopylae? Rofl


no but i expected more than a guy saying "we are spartans" 500 times..violence so repetitive i was bored to death of it and the claustrophobic setting that gave no impression of where the battle was fought

plus why wouldnt the huge army just send a few guys to rip down that ghetto "wall" the spartans build to (laugh) funnel xerxes forces into them

you could have inserted any little bit of any historical battle and it would have been the same movie :thumbsdown:

and yes i just finished a campaign of rome, vannila its still awful, mtw is better vannila, but if you use rtr or eb rome is better by alot :yes:

yeah hungarian battlefield assassins are awsome

[redriver]

no but i expected more than a guy saying "we are spartans" 500 times..

yeah hungarian battlefield assassins are awsome

500? wasn't the movie called 300 8)

[Randarkmaan]

Do you remember them, the best unit ever in RTW...
maybe I thought of them because of the movie 300, but besides that...:
i really miss that in M2TW...
The Spartan hoplites were the elite in RTW, but here in M2tw rthere are no such really elite units..
I think that historaclly acurate they realy were non such ELITES, but: also to be accurate:
Knight templar should be available as dismounted and be given an extra bonus defenzive and offenzive, because:
In reallity; they fought most of their battles dismounted,
and should have an extra plus because:
they were like priest, prayed 5 times a day, no sex, "poverty" (in real they were really richer than kings), they trained the rest of the day... When fighting they were told never to reatred unless surraunded by at least 3 times thier numbers....
They would really deserve the status of really elite troops in M2TW
It would be hist. accurate and more fun to play teh game with such elite troops

Where have you got that nonsense about the Templars fighting most of their battles on foot? The Templars nearly always fought mounted, except when defending castles, they had footsoldiers but they were usually sergeants and were more often crossbowmen that spearmen. At the time the Templars were at the scene in the middle-ages cavalry was the thought to be the most potent weapon of an army, and therefore all the best soldiers would be mounted. There were some professional footmen, but most decent infantry were equipped with crossbows or were siege engineers and sappers rather than swordsmen and spearmen, at this time such infantry was often neglected and dubious in quality. All the times the Templars fought and won victories they fought mounted, ever heard about Mont Gisard? Anyway the Templars weren't supposed to retreat even if the enemy were more than 3 times their number, but they often did so as well. If anything I think the order knights; the Templars and the Hospitallers and maybe the Teutonics should be given a more powerful charge and a higher morale than the others, then just leave them as they are. What distinguished the Templars and the Hospitallers from ordinary knights were not their superior swordsmanship or their horsemanship, but their fanatic bravery and them being better able to keep a formation intact when charging, because they lived and trained together.


sherwood archers
These guys are slaughter if you face them with mostly infantry... I've done that once...

[pike master]

300 was a ruin with or without historical claims.

trashy and without any outdoor large reenactment atmosphere. all of it was done on indoor stage with computer trickery.

[Carl]

I think the point is being both poorly explained by the OP and poorly understood by the repliers here.

let me clarify things as I see them.


He's pointing out their are no units similar to the Spartan Hoplites in terms of power and rarity.

The Spartans where effectively limited to just Sparta and (if I ember right, but i didn't play RTW too much before I got M2TW so please forgive me if I get this bit wrong), you Had also to be playing as Greeks.

If a Woodmens masters guild was as hard top get fro England as it is for everyone else then Sherwood Archers would be of suitable rarity.

the Second point he is getting at is that the Spartan Hoplites where incredibly powerful by comparison to the NORMAL powerful and elite units of most factions.

Forlorn Hope/Dismounted Knights/JHI/e.t.c. are all very powerful units. but NONE of these units stand head and shoulders above everything else by a clear and obvious margin as Spartan Hoplites did.

A unit of that caliber in M2TW (using a 2-hander as a basis), would have to be something like 8 Charge 30 attack, 60 men per unit (small unit size), and 20 defense (with over half in Armour).

In reality such a unit would not be balanced, and thats why you don't see units like this in M2TW. The way the game has been set up (especially with regards missile power and Cav charges), means that +2 or +3 missile defense is not a small but significant advantage as it was in RTW, but instead a massive advantage that can render a unit mostly immune to Missiles and Cav alike.

RTW Cav relied very much on their general melee abilities as much as the charge, so a high defense that largely neutered the charge wasn't exactly instantly fatal to Cav, (as it is in M2TW where the charge of Cav is the be all and end all of their damage causing abilities).

Likewise, average missile defense and missile attack values where higher meaning a slight increase in missile attack or missile defense values could provide an important advantage without producing such a powerful effect that it effectively IMBA's the unit in question.

[zstajerski]

Where have you got that nonsense about the Templars fighting most of their battles on foot? The Templars nearly always fought mounted, except when defending castles, they had footsoldiers but they were usually sergeants and were more often crossbowmen that spearmen. At the time the Templars were at the scene in the middle-ages cavalry was the thought to be the most potent weapon of an army, and therefore all the best soldiers would be mounted. There were some professional footmen, but most decent infantry were equipped with crossbows or were siege engineers and sappers rather than swordsmen and spearmen, at this time such infantry was often neglected and dubious in quality. All the times the Templars fought and won victories they fought mounted, ever heard about Mont Gisard? Anyway the Templars weren't supposed to retreat even if the enemy were more than 3 times their number, but they often did so as well. If anything I think the order knights; the Templars and the Hospitallers and maybe the Teutonics should be given a more powerful charge and a higher morale than the others, then just leave them as they are. What distinguished the Templars and the Hospitallers from ordinary knights were not their superior swordsmanship or their horsemanship, but their fanatic bravery and them being better able to keep a formation intact when charging, because they lived and trained together.


These guys are slaughter if you face them with mostly infantry... I've done that once...

There is a nice documentary (discovery or natonal geographic) called "The secrets of the Bible"... It is a 3 parter: I think No.2 is about the Knights Templar, watch it (it is on isohunt.com or torrentspy.com) or I can give you the titles of some books if you wish ;)

[King Jeron]

There is a nice documentary (discovery or natonal geographic) called "The secrets of the Bible"... It is a 3 parter: I think No.2 is about the Knights Templar, watch it (it is on isohunt.com or torrentspy.com) or I can give you the titles of some books if you wish ;)

Meh, not enough seeders. You can watch it on google video tough:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6297736454870814463

[pike master]

i would take anything from the history channel with a grain of salt. especially anything that has to do with secret orders and wat not.

the thing that made the spartans so tough in rome was because they were a regular sized unit but they had 2 hit points. im certian about that.

however in the medieval era the only thing i can think of that would be similiar to the spartans should be swiss pikemen or halberdiers.

a good one i think would be for CA to make a new unit for swiss mercenary hire that has the same stats as the swiss guard halberdiers but have a large formation like pikemen and spear units.

this would avoid the 2 hit point thing but it would still give you a unit that would stop cav in its tracks and duke it out with any melee unit in the game including those larger unit formation aztec elite soldiers.

swiss halberdiers were the unit that really started the swiss reputation for war. the pikes came later on.

[TevashSzat]

I know what is like the Spartans, the mercenary elephants near baghdad. They can only be hired after gunpowder, cost alot of money, and take forever to replenish, like 10 turns normally, but they are just like the Timurids elephants and just rock in general killing everything in sight

[pike master]

true dat

[Randarkmaan]

Well, anyone if there was to be a unit like that in MTW2, then it would have to have been Knights Templar, but it should not be a powerful infantry unit, rather it should have the most devastating charge in the game. But its too late now, unless someone mods it ofcourse.

[HoreTore]

He's pointing out their are no units similar to the Spartan Hoplites in terms of power and rarity.

The Spartans where effectively limited to just Sparta and (if I ember right, but i didn't play RTW too much before I got M2TW so please forgive me if I get this bit wrong), you Had also to be playing as Greeks.

If a Woodmens masters guild was as hard top get fro England as it is for everyone else then Sherwood Archers would be of suitable rarity.

Spartans were restricted to greeks in Sparta and Syracuse.

Sherwood archers are restricted to one province, and one faction. They can only be trained in a master or HQ woodsmans guild as the english. The guild isn't very hard to get, but it is surely harder to get than building the highest level barracks in Sparta...

[pike master]

they should make elephant rocketeers and recruitable mercenary unit. they would definetly rate as spartan equivalent certified.

[zstajerski]

the thing that made the spartans so tough in rome was because they were a regular sized unit but they had 2 hit points. im certian about that.



Right, tottaly forgot about their 2 hit-points :book:

[Carl]

Sherwood archers are restricted to one province, and one faction.

wrong, they are restricted to one faction yes, but any castle that builds a significant number of archers will get it as English. Hell, 20 units of Retinue Longbows gets you enough points for the HQ. The truth is they are VERY easy to get as england because you can get them in any castle where you build lost of archers. With Spartan Hoplites it was just 2 provinces as 1 faction, they where effectively nigh on impossibbile to get as you had to spend a great deal of time and effort building the various buildings necessary until you got a high enough level barracks and that takes massive amounts of time and investment, and then you have to ship them to wherever they are needed. No easy task.

Sherwood archers can be got anywhere you build lots of archers and you don't have to build that many units of archers to get the guild levels necessary. You'll easily build that many just supplying the basic needs of your forces in the long term under normal circumstances. In other words they take no concantrated effort to build or get to the front.


AND when they get their they arn't exactly special all things considered.

[TevashSzat]

Elephant rockrteer, what do u mean by it since both the artillery and arbesquier elephants can be hired as mercs

[The Spartan (Returns)]

i thought Templars mostly fought mounted.

[pike master]

i forgot some havent checked for unit code cheats. select a stack or city and type in vindaloo. then you will get the most fearsome unit in the game.

[zstajerski]

i forgot some havent checked for unit code cheats. select a stack or city and type in vindaloo. then you will get the most fearsome unit in the game.

There is no such cheat....:smash:

[pike master]

you are mistaken kind sir. please bring down the medieval shell after you have selected a city and type vindaloo in and find out for yourself. you will be given a madmans weapon of great power and psychologically disturbing to even the most disciplined and fearless units of the game.

[_Tristan_]

You can also select a unit stack and proceed in the same fashion to the same effect... KA-BOOM !!!

[Lord_hazard]

If theres one thing that I have alwasy hated/disliked then its the fact that you can make an army out of elite soldiers. IMO it destroyes any challenges the game might have given you. Its simply too "overpowered".
Im a strong advocate for limits on certain units.

[RabbitDynamite]

In fairness to CA, I think this (i.e. stacks formed mainly of normal infantry instead of elites) is what they were trying to do with recruitment pools and malitia. Not exactly fail-safe tho.

[zstajerski]

you are mistaken kind sir. please bring down the medieval shell after you have selected a city and type vindaloo in and find out for yourself. you will be given a madmans weapon of great power and psychologically disturbing to even the most disciplined and fearless units of the game.


WoW Elephant rocketers
sorry to have doubed you m8, and how stupid of me to claims something which I havent tried

thnx m8
great cheat

[_Tristan_]

If theres one thing that I have alwasy hated/disliked then its the fact that you can make an army out of elite soldiers. IMO it destroyes any challenges the game might have given you. Its simply too "overpowered".
Im a strong advocate for limits on certain units.

If you don't like it, don't do it...:yes:

In my campaign, elite troops are fighting alongside earlier lee powerful troops to a convenient mix...

In fact, I have some difficulty getting rid of older units which have gained sometimes 6 level of experience even if they are spear militia...

I generally in a 20-unit, no more than 5 or 6 elite units and the general, the rest being the general rabble you can get throughout the game...

I tend to create troops as I go and rely a lot on mercenary (almost half the whole of my army is made of mercs) rather than creating Mordor-kind power-centers that creates tons of elites...

It's good to have some of them but I rarely got to use them, the front of my attacks being sometimes so far from the city/castles where those elites can be created...

[pike master]

i like to play unlimited money and troop limits on multiplayer but noone else does 8(

[HoreTore]

wrong, they are restricted to one faction yes, but any castle that builds a significant number of archers will get it as English. Hell, 20 units of Retinue Longbows gets you enough points for the HQ. The truth is they are VERY easy to get as england because you can get them in any castle where you build lost of archers. With Spartan Hoplites it was just 2 provinces as 1 faction, they where effectively nigh on impossibbile to get as you had to spend a great deal of time and effort building the various buildings necessary until you got a high enough level barracks and that takes massive amounts of time and investment, and then you have to ship them to wherever they are needed. No easy task.

Sherwood archers can be got anywhere you build lots of archers and you don't have to build that many units of archers to get the guild levels necessary. You'll easily build that many just supplying the basic needs of your forces in the long term under normal circumstances. In other words they take no concantrated effort to build or get to the front.

AND when they get their they arn't exactly special all things considered.

I think you've been modding too much lately :P

You are restricted to one masters guild, and the sherwoods can only be bought from a masters... Hence, one province. You can choose which one though.

EDIT: Oh, and you'll have to get a citadel, which takes about the same time as getting Sparta to a Huge city.

[pike master]

if you started unit modding just out of curiosit how many hit points could you give a unit?

[Carl]

if you started unit modding just out of curiosity how many hit points could you give a unit?

I've never found the limit, but once when i was just checking that my modding was working I gave the Bodyguard of old Cortez 5HP's and the game didn't seem to mind so...



You are restricted to one masters guild, and the sherwoods can only be bought from a masters... Hence, one province. You can choose which one though.


I'd forgotten that limitation on masters guilds, I tend to give up before I get Masters guilds most times LOL. I've yet to see turn 100 in any campaign I've played. You could still get more than one by gifting the relevant province to an enemy/sending it rebel then build another masters guild and grab the province back. Or even delete the existing guild so you can move it elsewhere.


Oh, and you'll have to get a citadel, which takes about the same time as getting Sparta to a Huge city.

No, just an ordinary castle will do, I got the masters whilst the fortress upgrade for Nottingham was building, and i haven't modded anything to change that.

On the other hand they are somewhat rarer than i thought, but they still aren't that powerful, after 10 missile attack they just don't get any increase in total kills so 3 if their 13 points of missile attack is wasted.

[HoreTore]

No, just an ordinary castle will do, I got the masters whilst the fortress upgrade for Nottingham was building, and i haven't modded anything to change that.

Nah, you'll need a fortress for the first level, and a citadel for the last two. Check the building browser.