Cretan Archers or Balearic Slingers?

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

I'm just trying to see which unit is preferred among players here. I'm playing as Rome, and have good access to both. But the archers have a missile attack of 5, while the slingers have a missile attack of 4. But, I hear people saying there is actually an in-game difference between rocks and arrows on armor.

Should I continue to use the slingers or should I go to the slightly more powerful archers?

[spirit_of_rob]

I use the archers myself but only really for the asthetical reason i just like how they look lol

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Nice. I like how they look as well, and that's sometimes how I choose units.

I just need to know which one will be more effective at taking down expensive Carthaginian troops.

[Intranetusa]

Personally, I think slingers' armor piercing ability are WAAYYY overpowered.

With 4 units of MILLITA slingers, I killed 3/4 of TWO entire units of Gaestarnes...those invincible 2 HP naked barbarians...and I was shooting at them HEADON IN THE FRONT.

Even with 4 units of Cretan archers, I can't do that much damage.

[Imperator]

Depends. The Cretans are better in melee, and don't cause as much friendly-fire damage. Slingers, however, are much better against armor or shields. Slingers are more powerful, but then their use is limited because you can't use them behind your line or once battle is joined, but with archers they can happily fire all battle long. Also, their flaming arrows can actually make the difference in a battle if there's that one unit that's "Wavering" but won't quite break. All depends on where you are and who you're fighting :juggle2:

EDIT: and how 'bout them Syrian Archers?

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Depends. The Cretans are better in melee, and don't cause as much friendly-fire damage. Slingers, however, are much better against armor or shields. Slingers are more powerful, but then their use is limited because you can't use them behind your line or once battle is joined, but with archers they can happily fire all battle long. Also, their flaming arrows can actually make the difference in a battle if there's that one unit that's "Wavering" but won't quite break. All depends on where you are and who you're fighting :juggle2:
Ah, I see. So there is a difference against shields and armor?

Hmm...I never noticed a problem with friendly fire from my slingers, but I suppose I wasn't paying attention. It's because the trajectory of their missiles is relatively flat, I imagine...

I suppose I could just try both then, and see which one better suits my purposes.

I think slingers would be better against Carthaginians if they're better against armor.

[antisocialmunky]

The Celtic ones are more readily available and have a more obscene range than Balearic I believe.

[JeffBag]

Cretans are more like general purpose light troops instead of being simply missiles.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

The Celtic ones are more readily available and have a more obscene range than Balearic I believe.
Probably, but they have a missile attack of 2 I think, so I'd might as well get the Balearics instead (they're much more available than the Celtic ones).

Slingers: Anti-armor, friendly fire problems.
Cretans: Little friendly fire, fire arrows, slightly more powerful, double as very light infantry (anti-skirmisher?), no anti-armor.

I think the Cretans win...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I generally employ Cretans for my armies, two per stack. But I'm not overall convinced.

- they seem to run out of ammo quite quickly
- they do not inflict much casualties against heavier troops (slingers either)
- fire missiles seldomly cause the enemy to rout
- they are vulnerable against enemy missile fire

on the other side...

- they are not to run away easily
- they give good accounts of themselves in melee
- they took revenge for a fallen general of mine and fighted the enemy (drapanai) in melee, when all others fled, and won the battle alone

So now that my Mega Makedonia stretches its fingers to Syria, I am thinking of employing Syrian archers. They have better armour I know because once a group of Syrian archers almost slaughtered my Hyspaspistai...

Would you recommend Syrian archers? How is their morale, and how big is their fire range? Do they carry more ammo than the Cretans?

[Fondor_Yards]

You only get friendly fire if your slingers are directly behind your guys. Even if they are farther back they won't, since they do arc their lots a bit if they are shooting long range. Also Balearic Slingers use falcatas in meele, so their attack is AP.

So Balearic Slingers=AP missile attack+AP meele Attack+A slightly large merc pool iirc=better then cretans.


Oh I would go with syrians. No only do they have a much larger AAR, but they look a ton cooler then cretans.

[antisocialmunky]

Probably, but they have a missile attack of 2 I think, so I'd might as well get the Balearics instead (they're much more available than the Celtic ones).

Slingers: Anti-armor, friendly fire problems.
Cretans: Little friendly fire, fire arrows, slightly more powerful, double as very light infantry (anti-skirmisher?), no anti-armor.

I think the Cretans win...

Well, you can build the Celtic ones literally everywhere north of Iberia, Greece, and the Italian boot at a level 2 MIC. The difference in missile attack isn't actually too much one you factor in the AP. They can both get obscene kill counts but the Celtic ones are better IMHO because they can inflict casualties before anything else can get into range and they'll shred lightly armoured infantry like other slingers.

Also, you might want to add ammo to slingers. I think most of them carry 40, archers carry alot less.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Well, you can build the Celtic ones literally everywhere north of Iberia, Greece, and the Italian boot at a level 2 MIC. The difference in missile attack isn't actually too much one you factor in the AP. They can both get obscene kill counts but the Celtic ones are better IMHO because they can inflict casualties before anything else can get into range and they'll shred lightly armoured infantry like other slingers.

Also, you might want to add ammo to slingers. I think most of them carry 40, archers carry alot less.
Ammo is a good point...a very critical point indeed...

Although both run out rather quickly it seems, if that's true I think the slingers win anyway.

I should do a test or two.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

I generally employ Cretans for my armies, two per stack. But I'm not overall convinced.

- they seem to run out of ammo quite quickly
- they do not inflict much casualties against heavier troops (slingers either)
- fire missiles seldomly cause the enemy to rout
- they are vulnerable against enemy missile fire

on the other side...

- they are not to run away easily
- they give good accounts of themselves in melee
- they took revenge for a fallen general of mine and fighted the enemy (drapanai) in melee, when all others fled, and won the battle alone

So now that my Mega Makedonia stretches its fingers to Syria, I am thinking of employing Syrian archers. They have better armour I know because once a group of Syrian archers almost slaughtered my Hyspaspistai...

Would you recommend Syrian archers? How is their morale, and how big is their fire range? Do they carry more ammo than the Cretans?
I did some tests against some relatively heavy Carthaginian units, and the Balearics killed quite a bit more than the Cretans did (the max for the Cretans was in the 70s, and the max for the Balearics was around the 150s).

And I would suggest the Syrian archers, though I haven't used them outside of custom battles. They're armored, and I think they have the compound bows for greater range (somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that). Good investment, methinks.

[Watchman]

That's composite bows incidentally. Compound bows would have to be bought from time-travelers. :wacko:

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

http://theentente.com/forum/Smileys/default/psy.gif

Ah man, that's right.

I wonder what a steel-tipped fiberglass or graphite arrow fired from a compound bow would do to armor?

[Morte66]

The Cretans are easy, they'll sit behind a spear unit and ping away. If the targets are unarmoured, or lightly armoured and retreating, they'll kill enough to earn their pay. Also, Cretans can fire flaming missiles at siege engines. Though for garrisons you might want to something cheaper -- lots of places make "Hellenic Archers" which cost less than 100/turn.

The Balearics are deadly, but they're deadly to everybody including themselves. They can do overhead fire, but only at ranges that reduce their effect. So you need to push them wide or around behind the enemy. The "hammer and anvil" technique works better with slingers than heavy cavalry, if you can keep the slingers alive. If you have slingers and cavalry behind a pinned enemy, let the slingers pound away while the cavalry protect the slingers. The slingers will do more damage than the cavalry charges, because they're constant. Archers can do this too, but they don't have the "armour piercing" attribute so you might as well just use cavalry (similar damage and less risk).

Since exposed missile troops are like trouble magnets, and they really need an escort, make a virtue of necessity and use them as bait. As an enemy comes after the missiles, pull them away and have their escort charge the enemy in the flank. As soon as the escort has them entangled, the misslies have a choice of two units to pound from behind at short range -- their original targets, or the bunch who just walked into the trap.

So... Apart from sieges I think the Balearics win by a mile with skillful micromanagement. But they're about even if you don't want to do that.

As for melee... If either of them ever melees (apart from chasing routers), you've screwed up. But screwups happen, so don't worry about mild losses -- experience 3 to 4 is a 100% attack improvement for missile troops, while it would only be about 25% for spearmen.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Awesome, thanks for that info.

I just had a huge battle with Carthage (that army, I believe, was their last real hope of stopping me from raping Africa at will) that was an insult to my military's abilities. They had more troops than I did, but not a drop of Roman blood was spilled (my Samnites and Classical Hoplites did all the work). My Balearics gave them some pretty decent casualties before swords ever clashed (they took 78 and 132 casualties each, gained 2 chevrons each, and lost 21 total).

I think that, and now your input, just solidified my decision.

[JeffBag]

You should check out the eastern slingers; they have 160 men in the unit, and the last I checked, my Ptolemaic eastern slingers were killing about 4-7 of the Seleucid's General's Cavalry per volley. And they were completely green; no experience at all.

[Morte66]

You should check out the eastern slingers; they have 160 men in the unit, and the last I checked, my Ptolemaic eastern slingers were killing about 4-7 of the Seleucid's General's Cavalry per volley. And they were completely green; no experience at all.

Eastern Slingers to flank + cheap medium pike phalanxes to pin + cavalry and spearmen to react quickly to events = Pontic survival vs the Seleucids.

[SwebozGaztiz]

hello what about helamite archers?i know syrian archers are better but i have used them plenty of times on my campaign with baktria and have been very very helpfull also in melee thay have given a good account of themselves!you should try those, eastern slingers in my opinion are better than celtic or balearic slingers, once again you should give helamite archers a try

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

hello what about helamite archers?i know syrian archers are better but i have used them plenty of times on my campaign with baktria and have been very very helpfull also in melee thay have given a good account of themselves!you should try those, eastern slingers in my opinion are better than celtic or balearic slingers, once again you should give helamite archers a try
I would, but over their they're a bit out of the way...I'll have to try to get a hold of some of those eastern slingers, though. That's two reccomendations.

[Juvenal]

In my current KH campaign, Hellenic Slingers and Classical Hoplites are the backbone of my armies. :2thumbsup:

I tried Balearic Slingers - but their availability is limited and they seem to run out of ammunition quickly.

I usually send my slingers out on a left flanking manoeuvre, with some hoplites as an escort in case of unwelcome cavalry attention.

After the battle lines have engaged, my flanking force is free to mow down the enemy rear at will, they get very high kill counts (100 to 200 each).

There is still a place for Cretans, behind the battle line. They produce less friendly fire problems and make a handy last-ditch reserve and anti-flanking force. I often have no cavalry, so the Cretans have prevented my main line from becoming the jam in the sandwich on numerous occasions. :sweatdrop:

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

What's the missile attack on the Hellenic ones? I'm playing the Romani, and there's no end to Balearics wherever I go; all of my cities west of Italia have at least two units, but I've yet to encounter even one unit of Hellenic slingers.

I just took Carthage's last city outside of Africa, and my Balearics each killed more people than any of my infantry did, and they took one casualty (while literally doing nothing; Gary pushed him off the wall, but he says he didn't mean to). I've gotten one unit up to 2 chevrons, and they're my annihilation squad.

I've also decided to make Classical Hoplites a central part of my army. They're pretty good all around, and they have amazing stamina (a 15 minute fight on the wall got them to "Tired" while all of my Samnites were "Exhausted"). The Samnites and Hoplites are generally the core now, to the dismay of my bored Romans :laugh4:...One full stack on full stack battle had the enemy routing, and my Roman units literally didn't even move the entire battle.

[RabbitDynamite]

I also am getting good use out of the slingers/classics combo. In my current Mak campaign, my armies usually consist of phalanx units as the main battle line, with heavy cav assisting the left wing and hellenic slingers on the right, with classic to guard the slingers/reserve infantry.

[Watchman]

I tried Balearic Slingers - but their availability is limited and they seem to run out of ammunition quickly.The latter is due to the very simple fact their ammo load is pretty low - 21 a head IIRC, to the 30-40 of other slingers. I know they used rocks bigger than was the norm, but... :inquisitive:

Mind you, IIRC also the Cretans, Indians, Thanvabara and most other archer/light infantry hybrid types have a lower ammo count by around 5 than more "dedicated" archers.

[RabbitDynamite]

The "hammer and anvil" technique works better with slingers than heavy cavalry, if you can keep the slingers alive. If you have slingers and cavalry behind a pinned enemy, let the slingers pound away while the cavalry protect the slingers. The slingers will do more damage than the cavalry charges, because they're constant.

Slingers might kill more over the same period of time, but won't a cavalry charge cause the unit to rout more effectively precisely because everyone dies at once? Or do they die quick enough vs. rear slingers that this is a non-factor?

[JeffBag]

Slingers might kill more over the same period of time, but won't a cavalry charge cause the unit to rout more effectively precisely because everyone dies at once? Or do they die quick enough vs. rear slingers that this is a non-factor?

Just a couple of volleys then charge in your slingers. Roughly the same thing as a cavalry charge, except it takes a longer time. Can't really complain though since you are paying about 500 compared to the 3000 of medium cavalry units.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Well, I think I'll give the Syrian archers a try. I use the slingers only as garrison troops, with the duty of putting down rebellions at the side of phalangitai deuteroi or hoplites. I personnally think that archers are better and easier to handle, they basically just stay at their position behind the heavy infantry during the whole battle, unless in really pitched situations.

A cavalry charge is the greatest pleasure of the general, btw. Makes your foe go from 200 to zero in 3 seconds.~D

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Well, I think I'll give the Syrian archers a try. I use the slingers only as garrison troops, with the duty of putting down rebellions at the side of phalangitai deuteroi or hoplites. I personnally think that archers are better and easier to handle, they basically just stay at their position behind the heavy infantry during the whole battle, unless in really pitched situations.

A cavalry charge is the greatest pleasure of the general, btw. Makes your foe go from 200 to zero in 3 seconds.~D
My Roman general (Hannibal O_____o) has 3 gold chevrons and 84 other men in the unit from heavy usage such as this. Fighting in the town square = one exposed side + perfect morale = the general can do it as many times as he fancies.

@Watchman
Ah man, I might have to find that file and give 'em some more crap to chuck. I didn't know they were that much worse off. I understand the larger rocks, but still...

@RabbitDynamite
I'unno, AI units get pretty freaked out when 120 rocks suddenly slam into their unit at high speed, especially when they can't reach the source. I had some Balearics perched on the wall I just took, and I had them fire down on an idle unit. The unit just started running all over the place, and ran all the way to the town square after 62 of its men.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Maybe a stupid newbie question, but did you also find out that pressing "delete" on a marked slinger unit allows you to follow the rocks on their flight to the enemy? I have RTW since about three years, and I discovered it about a week ago.~:0 ~:0 ~:0

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

O.o Never knew that...don't know how useful that'd be, but it sounds cool.

[Intranetusa]

reallly???? KEWL!

[Morte66]

Slingers might kill more over the same period of time, but won't a cavalry charge cause the unit to rout more effectively precisely because everyone dies at once? Or do they die quick enough vs. rear slingers that this is a non-factor?

The thing is, do you really want to rout them quickly?

You must kill Seleucid routers, or you'll win the battles and lose the war. If you rout them, they're running away from you in loose order and somebody who can kill armoured troops has to go chase them. Or slingers can you grind away at them at point blank range, while they're stood conveniently in a tight block with their backs to you. Ideally they'll rout at about 80% casualties, just about the time you start firing through them into your own ranks.

But I guess I would want to break them ASAP if I were worried that the unit pinning them couldn't hold. With a Pontic medium pahalanx that won't happen -- the kill rate in phalanx shoving match is glacial.[1] But I guess routing would be more use to Armenia, who have worse infantry and better cavalry then Pontos.

__
[1] This is why I stick to cheap medium pike phalanxes in a mixed army. Heavy phalanxes are wasted, the battle should be decided by other troops before their extra armour counts for anything.

[RabbitDynamite]

Admittably, chasing routers is vital. The time I was thinking of is when you want a unit to rout NOW is when the infantry they're tying up is needed elsewhere (particuarly if an enemy phalanx is fighting a non phalanx unit - they'll take heavier casualties, and if they're more mobile infantry in a phalanx army, you'll likley need them moving aorund. If you have a cavalry wing, you can send a mauled unit to chase down the routers while the cavalry in good shape can go back to savaging the battle line.

Please note, I'm not Saying B. Slingers are worse than cavalry - I'm just considering the situations where the latter has advantages over the former.

[Morte66]

Please note, I'm not Saying B. Slingers are worse than cavalry - I'm just considering the situations where the latter has advantages over the former.

Sure. I agree. :)

I'd say: slingers if you have the time to do a thorough job, cavalry if you don't. Aim to use slingers, but sometimes you don't have the option.

[antisocialmunky]

I wouldn't recommend using slingers to hit a unit form behind that's fighting your units unless you have time to micro them.

[RabbitDynamite]

Maybe a stupid newbie question, but did you also find out that pressing "delete" on a marked slinger unit allows you to follow the rocks on their flight to the enemy? I have RTW since about three years, and I discovered it about a week ago.~:0 ~:0 ~:0

This works, too. Handy for A: checking of the slingers are killing anything and B: looking awesome.

[Orb]

My problem with the 'slinger hammer' is that it is anti-historical...
I can see surrounding a unit from all sides with javelins as being plausible, but doing it with slings would just encourage the men at the back to break off and then summarily gut those wimpy slingers. The RTW engine can't handle a unit splitting up to handle multiple enemies, admittedly, and the AI isn't very good at using its troop numbers, but it seems a little cheap to use slingers as a hammer.