Historical quesion about Argyraspidai

[Arkatreides]

I read somewhere that the Argyraspidai were an elite group of Hypaspists, at least during Alexander's campaign. Did this function change afterwards or were they always equipped as Phalanx units?

[abou]

It actually is pretty confusing. It seems that at some point in India the Hypaspists changed their name to Argyraspidai. Yet, equipment found in Phillip's tomb suggest that Hypaspists fought as hoplites, not phalangites. To me it seems that over time an elite corps of older men developed within the phalanx, who then became the Argyraspidai. They did, however, have a close association with the Hypaspistai, but as economic fortunes changed the latter disappeared.

I just have a hard time believing that a unit trained to fight as aggressive hoplites suddenly managed to become elite phalangites. At the most I can see them swapping officers or members, but it is hard to swallow.

[O'ETAIPOS]

It' difficult subject. What I write below is one of the propsitions, as the debate in heated.
Argyraspidai at first appear during India campain, although some authors use this name for Hypaspists from the start of the campain. At this point (in india) they were super elite and probably could fight just as they liked.

Later this corps appear in Seleucid and Antigonid armies, and it seems that in both it have different meaning.
Bar Kochwa in his book "The organisation of selucid army" claims argyraspids were sons of military settlers (obviously those most able) who served as standing army, and returned to their land when their father died or became unable to serve in military units. They most probably were pikemen, but trained also to other roles.

In Antigonid army, according to Hatzopoulos "L'organisation armee macedonienne" they were older, experienced rich soliders - unit named also "Agema" - this can serve as analogy with Alexander's Silvershields.

Makedonian custom may seem starange, but in fact it is quite understandable that soliders who are younger can perform more difficult tasks, while in phalanx where drill and "mechanisation" of movements is most important the age is not a problem. You ask how they were able to swich style of fighting, but the answer may be that they were trained to fight in phalanx from the start and "mobile" fighting was addition to training of those who excelled in earlier ("phalanx") training. This is just the way they choose soliders for elite group today.

[Krusader]

By my understanding the Argyraspidai Alexander died out, before new Silver Shields were established.

How they were reorganized in Makedonia I don't know, but it seems the Seleukid one was a royal corps from the start and the name Argyraspidai was probably chosen due to the elite status of Alexander's corps. Also it's noteworthy that it was around 10.000 man strong, which in my opinion is a definite throwback to the Immortals of the Persian kings.

[RabbitDynamite]

You know, if those ancient historians had just a spent a couple of lines on troop composition changes back in the day, they could of saved everyone a whole lot of trouble. Lazy gits. :sweatdrop:

[paullus]

or rather, Rabbit, it may just be in one of the many books that haven't survived.

[Rilder]

Yea Polybius' book on 20 unit composition for Rome Total War:Europa Barbarorum, sadly didn't survive. :clown:

[Sheep]

or rather, Rabbit, it may just be in one of the many books that haven't survived.

Well maybe they should have buried it someplace and left a note where we would find it.

[Thaatu]

They probably left something in Alexandria...

[Puupertti Ruma]

They probably left something in Alexandria...

And now we just need Huey, Dewey & Louie with Scrooge to find the library. Or better yet, to borrow the Junior Woodchucks Guidebook.

[RabbitDynamite]

If y'all excuse my oft-flippant tone, it's like the old story of the blind men feeling the elephant, only the elephant had been chopped up and large chunks of it hidden.

It feels frustratingly arbitrary over which ancient histories survived and which are destroyed. Of course, there is often a reason that texts that survive do - to take an example from my (limited) knowledge the Histories of Herodotus seem to have been highly popular and contraversial even shortly after they were written. But all the same, why has Cicero been handed down to the Generations and Pyrrhus' book on war forgotten - or substitute any example.

[keravnos]

There are a lot of ways to at least try to understand why/how those 2300 year old hardy elites fought/were armed. The key is synthesis... Numismatics/friezes/frescoes etc. If you stay fixed on written sources, which may very well been some junior scribe licking Basileus' boots to get himself a position in the Royal court, writing and describing what someone else read etc, then you very well may go down with that.

One minor example...

This is Apollodotos, one of the first IndoGreek kings wearing a Krysia (Makedonian hat)...

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Apollodotos1BEST2.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BasileosApollodotou.jpg

and this is supposedly Antigonos gonatas and Phila found in a city burried under the ashes of Vesuvious (Napoli), also depicted wearing a Krysia hat.

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/FrescofromNapolishowingAntigonosGon.jpg

Now, if someone were to graphically portray Apollodotos, wouldn't the second image be a good place to start? Cross reference is the key here, especially on places where other evidence is short and far between. The day when some Indogreek pergamene book (puksinon) is found will be the happiest of my life. But I have given up hope on that long ago. :embarassed: Still, we must work with what exists, what we can crossrefference to known images/motifs/sculptures.

And of course to bear one thing in mind. Despite all of our efforts/pain something may very well come up in the future that will prove some of our concepts as mistaken. Always allow for that possibility. We aren't infallible.

[abou]

Gah! There is that shield pattern again! What is the pattern's signifigance? I know you guys didn't pick it for the Seleukid Hypaspistai arbitrarily. I've seen it on coins (with the anchor instead of the Vergina sun in the center), bottom of cups, pottery, the relief from the Monument of Aemilius Paullus, and now this wall painting. It has to mean something!

[keravnos]

This shield design is exclusively Makedonian. Many/all rulers of Makedonia used it, even Pyrrhos, for the short time he was King of Makedonia. It was well liked and copied throughout, but the motif remained Makedonian, all the way.

[Magister Militum Titus Pullo]

Sounds like the Argyraspidai were to Alexandros III and his successors, what the "Les Grognards" of the Imperial Guard were to Napoleon Bonaparte. Old and crusty, but loyal and skilled to a fault.

[keravnos]

It actually is pretty confusing. It seems that at some point in India the Hypaspists changed their name to Argyraspidai. Yet, equipment found in Phillip's tomb suggest that Hypaspists fought as hoplites, not phalangites. To me it seems that over time an elite corps of older men developed within the phalanx, who then became the Argyraspidai. They did, however, have a close association with the Hypaspistai, but as economic fortunes changed the latter disappeared.

I just have a hard time believing that a unit trained to fight as aggressive hoplites suddenly managed to become elite phalangites. At the most I can see them swapping officers or members, but it is hard to swallow.

Been reading a bit of Arrian. Before heading off to India reinforces arrived. Along with fresh supplies and new recruits they bore thousands of silver gilded shieds which of course were given to the old hands.

One of their greatest advantages. They could blind the oncoming enemy rendering them irresolute when attacking a phallanx. Which gets enemies killed, easily!

"Les Grognards" is exactly what they were.

Later on, when all of that was over, most returned to Makedonia. Others settled in Gerasa, Jordan. Its name is the simple past in Greek for "I got old". Their reputation was such, though, that their unit name remained for as long as there were free Makedonians. And that is they way it should be.

[Watchman]

Its name is the simple past in Greek for "I got old".:laugh4: Now that's downright laconic.