The Israel Lobby (or Jewish Lobby)

[Bijo]

NOTE: let us keep the discussion as clean as possible. Let us exclude any type of irrelevancy in our arguments and conclusions, etc., and especially let us not raise accusations of anti-Semitism, unless it is clearly the case of course.
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http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/iraqwar.shtml (Article on Iraq War)
http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/jewishlobby.shtml (Article on the Jewish Lobby)
http://www.ihr.org/news/0703_meeting.shtml (Article on the Lobby's campaign for war)

http://www.scribemedia.org/2006/10/11/israel-lobby/ (Debate on Israel Lobby)
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Some extractions below:

Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa, who was awarded the 1984 Nobel Peace Prize, has candidly identified the reason: "The Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic," he said. "People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful — very powerful."

One person who has carefully studied this subject is Jonathan J. Goldberg, now editor of the influential Jewish community weekly Forward. In his 1996 book, Jewish Power, he wrote: [8]

In a few key sectors of the media, notably among Hollywood studio executives, Jews are so numerically dominant that calling these businesses Jewish-controlled is little more than a statistical observation ...

Hollywood at the end of the twentieth century is still an industry with a pronounced ethnic tinge. Virtually all the senior executives at the major studios are Jews. Writers, producers, and to a lesser degree directors are disproportionately Jewish — one recent study showed the figure as high as 59 percent among top-grossing films.

The combined weight of so many Jews in one of America's most lucrative and important industries gives the Jews of Hollywood a great deal of political power. They are a major source of money for Democratic candidates.

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With this thread I am simply trying to see if we can come to the truth of the main matter: is there or has there been a powerful "Jewish Lobby" actively influencing U.S. foreign policy for the Middle East?

[Louis VI the Fat]

let us not raise accusations of anti-Semitism, Actually, that is precisely what I would describe your sources as, what with the IHR being a self-declared (http://www.ihr.org/main/about.shtml) anti 'Jewish-Zionist' and holocaust revisionalist organisation.


Americans have been misled into one costly, destructive, and needless war after another. During the Vietnam war and the 2003 Iraq war, for example, government officials and much of the media lied to and deceived the American people to justify slaughter and devastation.

The Institute speaks factually and effectively about the corrosive impact of “Holocaust” propaganda, World War II lies, Zionist deceit about the Israel-Palestine conflict, the Jewish-Zionist grip on America’s cultural and political life, and much more -- educating the thoughtful public with solidly referenced books, articles, reviews and tapes.

An awareness of real history provides understanding about the great issues of the present and the future. The work of the IHR in “blasting the historical blackout” (Barnes) has never been more relevant or important. In a world often saturated with historical lies and self-serving propaganda, the Institute for Historical Review stands as a precious bulwark and beacon.Bah.

I'll grant though that being a holocaust denying Jew-hater doesn't mean one is incorrect about everything. Or, in this case, about there being a powerful pro-Israel lobby in America.
Yes, many Jews are quite succesful and capable of expressing and defending their interests. Now if only there would be such a thing as a common Jewish interest too, all the losers in this world would have even more reason for their petty envy-Semitism.

[Bijo]

I don't know perfectly what is true or untrue in this matter which is why I'm raising this topic. I've got to say that it seems at least suspicious, or some might even say "plausible", that an Israel Lobby influences U.S. foreign policy.

Personally, I don't care if the people we're talking about are Jewish, American, Dutch, Swedish, African, or whatever. They could be alien for all I care. It's just that people so easily use this anti-Semitism ad hominem argument to attack people who are merely being critical and skeptical (especially about Israel)... people who are asking questions because they want to know the truth.

If reading and researching about the thing, and wanting to know the truth makes you an anti-Semite.... pfff. I've been called one before even if I was merely questioning the situation, which is what every sane man should do. It seems like 'anti-Semitism' is an easy quick way out to attack a person and avoid debate on Israel and possible American-Jewish political influence.

And if a man doesn't question such a situation out of fear of being called anti-Semite, what kind of man is he?
[/rant]

I know many people who wouldn't dare to touch the subject out of fear of being labeled anti-Semite. It's a weak excuse to not touch it. I prefer a bit more boldness in that regard.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No need for the 'I'm the Chuck Norris of intellectual endeavour' act. I'm not labelling you an anti-Semite, only your sources.

After reading just a single paragraph I knew I didn't have to search very long to find some holocaust revisionist tripe somewhere in the pages of the 'Institute for Historical Review'. The whole institute, starting with it's very name, spells anti-Semitism. Not really a good base to start a debate about Jews from. So if you want to leave accusations of anti-semitism out of the debate, then drop the 'martyr of freedom of thought' routine and simply be more picky in your choice of sources.

Back on-topic:

Is there or has there been a powerful "Jewish Lobby" actively influencing U.S. foreign policy for the Middle East?Yes, there is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in America.
And yes, many Jews are quite succesful and capable of expressing and defending their interests. Now if only there would be such a thing as a common Jewish interest too one could speak of a Jewish lobby indeed.

Those Jews in favour of a hawkish pro-Israel policy have found a strong ally in the pro-Zionist evangelical movement in America. Meh, I'm not going to write a twenty page long essay about pro-Israeli tendencies in American politics and its causes. Try google, or any of our American posters.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I agree with the fact that there is a large Jewish/Israeli lobby both in the United States and in parts of Europe, which could partially prevent the condemning of Israeli actions in the Middle East, whereas at the same time Palestinians are constantly blasted by major governments for what they do.

However, I wouldn't trust that website at all, and I refuse to use any of its material as a source, especially since it is openly revisionist and anti-Semitic.

[Del Arroyo]

The organization does not deny that the Holocaust occurred. It points out that the suffering of Jews is emphasized out of all proportion to the suffering of much largers numbers of other people during that war, and that this distortion has been used effectively as propaganda to further the selfish ends of Zionism and render Jewish movements and individuals immune to criticism.

That is not Holocaust denial. That is the real, contemporary truth about the Holocaust.

[Del Arroyo]

However, I wouldn't trust that website at all, and I refuse to use any of its material as a source, especially since it is openly revisionist and anti-Semitic.

Based on what? Where are the actual factual discrepancies which might actually discredit the information provided by this organization? And what makes someone anti-Semitic? Is there any legitimate reason to criticize organizations and individuals claiming Jewish identity? What if you don't like geffelte fish? Or what if you believe that they are lobbying our government into making bad decisions?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The organization does not deny that the Holocaust occurred. It points out that the suffering of Jews is emphasized out of all proportion to the suffering of much largers numbers of other people during that war, and that this distortion has been used effectively as propaganda to further the selfish ends of Zionism and render Jewish movements and individuals immune to criticism.

That is not Holocaust denial. That is the real, contemporary truth about the Holocaust.
That statement I agree with completely, however, I still would personally not trust a site that openly attacks an entire race/religion.

[Papewaio]

The organization does not deny that the Holocaust occurred. It points out that the suffering of Jews is emphasized out of all proportion to the suffering of much largers numbers of other people during that war, and that this distortion has been used effectively as propaganda to further the selfish ends of Zionism and render Jewish movements and individuals immune to criticism.

Potentially worse wrongs do not diminish lesser ones. A serial killer who killed 8 women vs one who kills 9 is not a better person.

That the Gypsies, homosexuals and political enemies also suffered is not denied by the Jews. I don't see how wiping out about a third or more of the population of Jews in Europe can be considered anything but obscene, it doesn't make it any less of an act of cretins that the Nazis also exterminated other groups.

So what distortion is happening? I remember at school learning about the death camps that about twice the population of New Zealand had died... so they were the top of the list. That about 95% of the people killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau were Jewish... enough to make a moderate sized city (over a million).

The Roma are possibly the only people who were more persecuted then the Jews by Nazi Germany in WWII.

=][=

How does the success in Hollywood have anything to do with the Holocaust... surely to get successful first one has to feed the audience first... it is generally the most successful who then go to make flicks that show their religious leanings... but they still need to bankroll these films with more box office successful ones... and as ruthlessly competitive as the film industry is and emphasis on industry... so the guys who have done well have done well on merit but Holocaust guilt, or are people saying the Spielberg got famous based on Schindlers List not ET & Jaws?

[Pannonian]

Back on-topic:
Yes, there is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in America.
And yes, many Jews are quite succesful and capable of expressing and defending their interests. Now if only there would be such a thing as a common Jewish interest too one could speak of a Jewish lobby indeed.

There is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in America, nowadays synonymous with the neo-Likud line (strongly pushed by the neocons and their supporters), which is supported by virtually all Jewish-Americans. But strangely, most Jewish-Americans, when polled, favour a line opposed to those neo-Likudniks. The best explanation I can think of for this dichotomy is that Jewish-Americans (and Jews elsewhere) are loyal to the idea of the Israeli state, but are unhappy with the practices of the state in reality.

IIRC there's a story somewhere in the BBC's People's War archives of a Jewish-British soldier who served in Palestine around the time of the Troubles, who was vehemently opposed to the creation of a Zionist state as he felt it would involve actions unbecoming of a Jew (others in his family disagreed). Israel has been successfully created, not only as a real, practical state, but also as the symbol of Jews around the world, but differences between the Jewish state and the Jewish identity remain. I suppose this applies to exiles of all cultures too, but this particular culture carries particularly strong connotations due to the Holocaust.

[Louis VI the Fat]

How does the success in Hollywood have anything to do with the Holocaust... * Louis, singing: *

'There's no business like shoah business...'


(Sorry Pape, I do agree with your post, I just needed it for teh pun.)
Why oh why do discussions about this subject always go so horribly wrong? They never progress beyond the conspiracist versus anti-defamation stage. Like the pro-Israel lobby subject, I can see the point people are trying to make and I do wish it could be discussed in a less heated manner. There is a disproportionally large amount of attention devoted to the holocaust in our culture. This is partly owing to the disproportionally large amount of Jewish authors, moviemakers, journalists and scientists. Sure.

But I'll be a reverse echo to those crying that this can not be said openly out of fear of being labelled an anti-semite: Why can so few say it without descending into conspiracy theorist historical revisionist anti-semitism?



The best explanation I can think of for this dichotomy is that Jewish-Americans (and Jews elsewhere) are loyal to the idea of the Israeli state, but are unhappy with the practices of the state in reality.Yes, I've witnessed that dichotomy too. A majority of the Jews I know deplore the direction Israel has been going in (though many also do not).
I think I can see why many Jews who disagree with the actions of Israel, or who even disagree with its very existence itself, will criticize it but can not find it in their heart to go against it. But I shall spare you my amateur psychological explanations. Or well, why should I: you already mentioned how the Holocaust is the binding element of Jewish culture and identity.

[Adrian II]

I would echo most of Louis' comments.

However, I think we shouldn't speak of a Jewish lobby (that is an insult to Jews) or an Israel lobby (that is an insult to Israel, haha) but of a Likud lobby. Properly speaking, if you look at the stance and personal ties of AIPAC and some other influential groups, they are close to Likud first and foremost.

And if you want to discuss the 'Holocaust industry' and related issues, why start at the bottom of the food chain (those ugly websites) and not the top, represented by the late Edward Said or the very alive Norman G. Finkelstein?

[Bijo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No need for the 'I'm the Chuck Norris of intellectual endeavour' act. I'm not labelling you an anti-Semite, only your sources.
[...]

Actually, my post wasn't directed at you :sweatdrop: It was just something in general, like a rant. I would've named you or quoted you if I wanted to address you, and I knew you labeled those sources anti-Semite and not me... it says so clearly in those words. But ah... :)


But I have a simple question to anyone who can answer this, since I'm no specialist on the exact meaning / definition of this word. What exactly means anti-Semitism? What exactly makes a person anti-Semitic? Why is this word reserved for the Jewish people? I hope somebody can answer these questions for me.

From my simple understanding it's about racism / discrimination / prejudice / etc. against the Jewish. And this term - anti-Semitism - is easily used in our societies. But why this reserved term, if it really is generally speaking ordinary discrimination? We hardly use any "special-sounding big words" when a white person discriminates a black one, for example. For that we just say it's 'racism'.

I particularly raise these questions because I've experienced - not necessarily here, but mainly elsewhere - that people quickly grasp to this 'anti-Semitism' out of FEAR or something. It's like they are PROGRAMMED that when somebody even slightly questions this whole situation he or she is to be immediately attacked ad hominem, etc., etc., blah blah, and so forth. They don't even DARE to touch the subject with a ten-foot stick.
To me that - almost - clearly shows irrationality and / or operating on emotion.

[Louis VI the Fat]

We're still friends! :jumping:

* exchanges hugs and kisses *


But I have a simple question

*follows a dozen maddeningly complex questions*

What exactly means anti-Semitism?
Hatred or prejudice against Jews.

What exactly makes a person anti-Semitic?
Hatred or prejudice against Jews.

Why is this word reserved for the Jewish people?
Through a poor choice of words.

This question itself is an age-old anti-Semitic trap though. Posing it is often a covert way of saying: see, the Jews enjoy special status. Nobody is accused of anti-Semitism when they hate the Arabs. And they're Semites too. I'm not an anti-Semite, but...

However, yes, Semite in a linguistic sense has a larger meaning. The term when coined was poorly chosen. But the etymology of a word is not the same as its meaning. Anti-semitism is and has always been understood to refer to Jews. The study of the meaning of words, semantics, is about descriptive, not logical or prescriptive. Words mean what they mean, not what they should mean. Why is Greenland called green when it isn't? It's simply called Greenland because somebody decided to call it Greenland and people accepted it.

Why are you an anti-semantic? :beam:


From my simple understanding it's about racism / discrimination / prejudice / etc. against the Jewish. And this term - anti-Semitism - is easily used in our societies. But why this reserved term, if it really is generally speaking ordinary discrimination? We hardly use any "special-sounding big words" when a white person discriminates a black one, for example. For that we just say it's 'racism'.It's for purposes of precision.

This question itself is an age-old anti-Semitic trap. Posing it is often a covert way of saying: see, the Jews enjoy special status. Why should it somehow be worse or different than other forms of prejudism. Racism refers to hatred of all other peoples. Why the exception for the Jews? I'm not an anti-Semite, but...

This shows a poor command of language again. Discrimination is so central to public awareness, that there in fact is a special word for all sorts of hatred, for lots of different groups. Bigotry, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia. Aren't they all words for prejudice and hate? Anti-Semitism is used for specification, not because of any special status this form of hatred deserves. One can call an apple a fruit, which is correct. Or a green round thingy, which is not incorrect either. Or one can be more specific for reasons of precision.

[gunslinger]

So, if I understand correctly, we can sum this thread up by saying that the Jewish race / faith is overrepresented in the rich, powerful, rabidly liberal film industry and that they use their vast amounts of money and influence to support liberal, Democrat politicians who almost unfailingly argue in favor of policies supporting (or at least appeasing) governments which consider the very existence of Israel, and Jewish people in general, an insult.

If this is a global conspiracy, then I'm afraid the conspirators seem a bit incompetent at this point. I think they should be impeached.

[Adrian II]

So, if I understand correctly, we can sum this thread up by saying that the Jewish race / faith is overrepresented in the rich, powerful, rabidly liberal film industry and that they use their vast amounts of money and influence to support liberal, Democrat politicians who almost unfailingly argue in favor of policies supporting (or at least appeasing) governments which consider the very existence of Israel, and Jewish people in general, an insult.

If this is a global conspiracy, then I'm afraid the conspirators seem a bit incompetent at this point. I think they should be impeached.ROFLMAO!

Well said, my friend. :bow:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL, I think the first thing we need to do here is seperate Jews and Isreal.

In my first year here I lived with a Jewish man and two Palastinian women, they got on very well.

To say we can seperate Isreal and Neo-Likud is incorrect, though, I think. Isreal is a democracy and they have consistantly voted for their political right pretty much since Rabin was shot over a decade ago.

Just like Britain and America Isreal is responsible for its shoddy politicians, and they're pretty shoddy.

I'd also point out that there are a great deal of Jewish banbers and wealthy lawyers who are rather less liberal than Hollywood. Quiet money is very much more effective than noisy publicity.

[Goofball]

LOL, I think the first thing we need to do here is seperate Jews and Isreal.

In my first year here I lived with a Jewish man and two Palastinian women, they got on very well.

To say we can seperate Isreal and Neo-Likud is incorrect, though, I think. Isreal is a democracy and they have consistantly voted for their political right pretty much since Rabin was shot over a decade ago.

Just like Britain and America Isreal is responsible for its shoddy politicians, and they're pretty shoddy.

Then neither can we seperate Palestinians from terrorism, as in their democratic elections they opted for a terrorist organization to form their government.

[AntiochusIII]

Then neither can we seperate Palestinians from terrorism, as in their democratic elections they opted for a terrorist organization to form their government.Gee, do we really need to bring that in here too? What do you have against Ahmed-person Palestiniani anyway?

Hamas provided what little structure was left standing in the region and promised to fight "for the people." Of course they're gonna get voted in over Fatah which was seen as a corrupt, complacent organization; or even a puppet. If one's going to complain about Arafat on one hand then accuse the Palestinians of voting for Hamas instead of Arafat's successor on another...

But that's still an irrelevant cheap shot.

[Goofball]

Gee, do we really need to bring that in here too? What do you have against Ahmed-person Palestiniani anyway?

Hamas provided what little structure was left standing in the region and promised to fight "for the people." Of course they're gonna get voted in over Fatah which was seen as a corrupt, complacent organization; or even a puppet. If one's going to complain about Arafat on one hand then accuse the Palestinians of voting for Hamas instead of Arafat's successor on another...

But that's still an irrelevant cheap shot.

It certainly was not. Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla made the point that people can not be seperated from the actions governments, as they are the ones who chose those governments, so they therefor are responsible for their governments' actions. My point was if you are going to apply this standard, you have to apply it universally.

In the case of the Palestinians, they elected a terrorist group as their government. So going with Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's theory, the Palestinian people have shown that they support terrorism.

Sorry if that bothers you.

I guess it's only a cheap shot if it's against the downtrodden Palestinians. But if it's being said about the Israelis, it's fair comment.

:dizzy2:

[Del Arroyo]

That statement I agree with completely, however, I still would personally not trust a site that openly attacks an entire race/religion.

I cannot claim to have read the site extensively, but the little bit that I did read revealed no such broad attacks as you accuse it of.

@ Papewaio: Yes, the Jewish Holocaust was a very terrible event, and it is a very appealing story emotionally. But let's get real. The fact that you even know that gypsies were targeted at all is the freak result of your own independent research. Because I can't speak for NZ, but they don't teach anything like that in the schools here.

And I don't think anyone ever suggested that directors were getting famous because of the Holocaust. I think the process that you described, of getting famous first and then making personal movies, is quite accurate. What is being discussed here is the possible secondary geo-political effects of our culture-wide focus on the WW2 Jewish Holocaust.

And possibly the fact that several of the posters in this thread have, while being too polite to declare it openly, gently implied that certain of their fellow Orgahs are anti-Semites.

[macsen rufus]

The fact that you even know that gypsies were targeted at all is the freak result of your own independent research.

Not to nit-pick, but I'd really say the converse is true. The fact that it was a surprise to you is more of a failing of your educational system that clearly didn't teach you the full impact. Certainly in the UK as well as NZ the Holocaust was (at least in my day...) taught as having impacted many ethnic groups. The Nazis regarded many other European ethnicities as "Uentermensch" - Roma, Slavs etc whilst 'graciously' accepting Nordics and the British as 'fellow Aryans'. Likewise the mentally ill and homosexuals were also treated as groups to be eradicated.

As to the question of why anti-semitism is different to any other form of racism is largely down to it being different in nature. Admittedly on a one-to-one basis there is no difference - an individual who just "hates Jews", although conveniently labelled an anti-semite, is merely being racist. It's in the institutional and large-scale persecutions of jews where the label of anti-semitism really should be applied. Remember back to when jews were BY LAW not allowed to own property, forced to live in certain areas, not granted the rights and freedoms of the "natives" to various European societies, or subjected to pogroms, expelled from countries etc. No doubt a lot of this came from the jews in Europe being the only really large-scale "foreign" community these nations had harboured. We can only speculate as to how a similar community of, say, black Africans would have been treated. It may have been better or worse, who can tell?

Anyway, back to the original point - the "pro-Israel" lobby. From what I've heard on the news etc (not that I've made a special study of it) I understand that a LOT of the lobby consists of extreme Christian groups egging on the "end times" and seeing the State of Israel as a precondition for Armageddon, which itself is a precondition for the fulfilment of their idea of God's plan. Which I find a lot scarier than the idea of a Jewish "pro-Israel" lobby.

But in all things, separation of the "people" from the "government" is always wise when making judgments. Even in the most democratic state a government will only represent a proportion of the people, often with more in opposition than in support. Then beyond this consider that the "Jewish people" are still widley dispersed around the globe, and have little if anything to do with the State of Israel. Excuse the unwarranted stereotype, but Jewish folk have a lot in common with the Irish - the national sport is disagreeing with each other, which is the main reason I can never believe any "global Jewish conspiracy" theory.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I cannot claim to have read the site extensively, but the little bit that I did read revealed no such broad attacks as you accuse it of.There is not a single paragraph on that site that isn't hardcore anti-semitic. That site is very much the definition of defamation, anti-semitism and revisionism:

The IHR is pleased to make the following books (http://www.ihr.org/main/booksonline.shtml) and booklets available on-line:
Keith Stimely's Revisionist Bibliography — 1981
Theodore Kaufman's Germany Must Perish!
Paul Rassinier's The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses (former title: "Debunking the Genocide Myth")
David Hoggan's The Myth of the Six Million
Michael Connor's Dealing in Hate
The Zionist Terror Network

The Leuchter Report, 'the alleged Nazi gassing facilities at Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek'
Richard Harwood: Did Six Million Really Die?

You can order David Irving in print through their main page.




several of the posters in this thread have, while being too polite to declare it openly, gently implied that certain of their fellow Orgahs are anti-Semites.I assume I'm one of these posters. No, I didn't imply Bijo is an anti-semite. There is a fine line between sincere curiosity and revisionist anti-Semitic tripe posing as open minded inquisitiveness. The latter is simply a pose, cowardly Jew bashers posing as historical review institutes, with an indignified tone of 'we're just keeping an open mind here, why can't anybody research anything Jewish without people crying anti-semiticism!?'

I'll give anybody the benefit of the doubt, and have assumed Bijo is of the former nature, a curious mind looking for answers who stumbled upon a mine-field and wants an open discussion. I pointed out he found himself unwillingly in unfortunate company, but that, like everybody in this thread, I'm quite willing to discuss a Jewish / Israeli lobby - which after all is the topic of this thread:
I don't know perfectly what is true or untrue in this matter which is why I'm raising this topic. I've got to say that it seems at least suspicious, or some might even say "plausible", that an Israel Lobby influences U.S. foreign policy.

[Devastatin Dave]

Thank God for this supposed "Jewish Lobby". They apparently only had circumcision on their foreskins and not had their entire scrotums removed like many groups. God bless Israel and the "Zionists"!!!

[Tribesman]

There is not a single paragraph on that site that isn't hardcore anti-semitic. That site is very much the definition of defamation, anti-semitism and revisionism:

Awww come on Louis , be fair , just because the organisation and its director are linked to neo-nazis and white supremacists it doesn't really follow that they are hardcore anti-semites...ummmmm......:oops:
OK on reflection , perhaps it does .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You never cease to amaze and amuse me Tribesman. Thats twice this week you cracked me up.

[Tribesman]

What is amazing about what was written Gawain?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What is amazing about what was written Gawain?

Well to tell the truth considering this is about Jews I was surprised at your response. Nicely surprised i must admit. But then I really shouldnt have been.

Plus I just liked the aliteration(sp)

[PanzerJaeger]

There are many powerful lobby groups in America representing all sorts of people.. yay for pluralism! Why do the Jews STILL get pegged as some sort of conspiratorial group? Jealousy maybe?

That being said, the holocaust has been blown far out of proportion by certain people, most of them not Jews. You'd think Germany was the only nation ever to try and clean out some of its unwanted ethnic groups. :shame:

THAT (the obsession with the German holocaust above the thousands of others)- I believe, is a real conspiracy to keep Germany from becoming nationalist again.

Ike started it, and its still going strong. It wont last forever though.. hopefully. :yes:

[Tribesman]

Well to tell the truth considering this is about Jews I was surprised at your response. Nicely surprised i must admit. But then I really shouldnt have been.

Yep you shouldn't have been , the only reason to have been surprised is if you had made the false assumpion that poeple who criticise the Israeli government or he more extreme followers of the jewish faith does so because they happen to be Jewish .

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I still maintain you can't fully seperate a people and their government. A government is voted in by the prevailing view of those who can be bothered. Those who cannot be bothered are culpable for that government, since they make up the majoriety.

Therefore we can draw the conclusion that the majoriety of Isrealis are either for Neo-Likud or don't care enough to go against them. To say that Palastinians support terrorism is slightly more complex because Palastine has problems with its democracy and not all Palastinians, particually the non Muslim ones, have left Palastine.

[Tribesman]

I don't think it works like that Wigferth , since recent elections have ended with coilitions which often change through the term of the Knesset , and since the last turnout was over 63% non voters don't make up a majority . What I assume to mean by neo-Likud only got 22% of the votes from the those that could be bothered to vote .