9/11 gov. conspiracy adherents

[Adrian II]

I have seen various U.S. opinion polls (or reports about them) that indicate a surprisingly large chunk of the American people believe in a cover-up of major facts in connection with '9/11'. When Charlie Sheen alleged a cover-up on CNN in March last year, a subsequent poll showed that 83% of registered voters supported his claim.

In my country it is only a sizeable portion of the population of Arab origin that believes in a cover-up. In France and the UK the belief in a cover-up is a bit more wide-spread, but in the U.S. is seems by far the highest number. Amazing. Or is it?

Zogby and other pollsters have found equally high numbers at different times. Here is one from August 30, 2004:


Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals

On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5.

The poll is the first of its kind conducted in America that surveys attitudes regarding US government complicity in the 9/11 tragedy. Despite the acute legal and political implications of this accusation, nearly 30% of registered Republicans and over 38% of those who described themselves as "very conservative" supported the claim.

The charge found very high support among adults under 30 (62.8%), African-Americans (62.5%), Hispanics (60.1%), Asians (59.4%), and "Born Again" Evangelical Christians (47.9%).

Link (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855)

Explain or discuss, please.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I have no explanation. My only thought would be that the US citizens often display a marked distrust of government, and this might be the root of concerns about the official explanations - especially since the administration has been caught in untruths about other events.

It's a sign, I think, of a healthy democracy - if one where critical evaluation of evidence is rare. Paradoxically, distrusting government also seems to go hand-in-hand with allowing that government free rein to erode personal rights on just a say-so.

Jack Bauer might have something to do with it too.

[Adrian II]

I have no explanation. My only thought would be that the US citizens often display a marked distrust of government, and this might be the root of concerns about the official explanations - especially since the administration has been caught in untruths about other events.Americans are certainly more robust individualists than the rest of us, possibly with the exception of the French. We distrust a particular government, a party or a ruling president or prime minister, whereas many Americans distrust government as such, the apparatus itself, the machinery of government if you will. From that perspective, I could understand if a large number of Americans thought the 9/11 commission report was insufficient.

But to alledge a cover-up, implying that all or most of Congress as well as all or most officials and civil servants have been actively and collectively manipulating the facts, seems a bit far-fetched.

[English assassin]

One observation

Believing that the government

"knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act,"

Is likely to be a belief in government incompetence, rather different from the Islamist theory that the CIA used Jewish ninja to take over the plane and fly them into the towers, at the moment of impact beaming the ninjas out and the dead bodies of innocent saudis in from Elvis's invisible airship hovering overhead.

So the coverups that are believed in in the US and the Muslim world are not the same thing.

I note for example that "attacks" doesn't imply "the attack that actially happened". After all, I think I probably know that at any given moment some jihadi somewhere is planning "attacks" on the UK, so I hope MI5 does too. And unless they get totally blindsided they must have some data on any attack that actually happens, on which they will presumably have "consciously failed to act" (because it was not thought credible or whatever)

As for why 83% of Americans think their government is incompetent, you'd have to ask them. It seems to be a bedrock of their culture.

[Adrian II]

One observation

Believing that the government

"knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act,"

Is likely to be a belief in government incompetence, rather different from the Islamist theory that the CIA used Jewish ninja to take over the plane and fly them into the towers, at the moment of impact beaming the ninjas out and the dead bodies of innocent saudis in from Elvis's invisible airship hovering overhead.According to the latest American conspiracy sites they were robot-planes. The Zionist conspirators, sitting in WTC 7, steered them into the twin towers, then left WTC 7 and erased their tracks by destroying that building too with energy beams from space (I kid you not), thus allowing Zionist WTC-owner Silverstein to net $3,5 billion insurance money destined for covert operations by his friend Benny Netanyahu's private secret service.

Meanwhile, back on Earth..

The rub is in the line 'and consciously failed to act'. This would imply that 'the government' as a whole betrayed the nation. And that the 9/11 Commission, in turn, equally consciously covered up the whole thing with the help of thousands of experts, falsified documents and witnesses from Dick Cheney right down to the WTC janitors.

[English assassin]

Well, there are bound to be a few crazies (!) in the US too.


The rub is in the line 'and consciously failed to act'. This would imply that 'the government' as a whole betrayed the nation. And that the 9/11 Commission, in turn, equally consciously covered up the whole thing with the help of thousands of experts, falsified documents and witnesses from Dick Cheney right down to the WTC janitors.

Trouble is knowing what they meant by 'and consciously failed to act'. If they mean they think the government had the info necessary to tell some sort of attack like 9/11 was about to happen, and misjudged it in a way that was worse than merely negligent, well, its a point of view. Not one I share, but maybe there is some magic thinking going on here, and they find it less uncomfortable to believe the government had the info and messed up, than to believe that the government didn't even have the info.

If they also think that, having made that misjudgement, the misjudgement is now being furiously covered up, then that bit strikes me as a not unlikely scenario on past showings. (Granted the original misjudgement).

If they think that the government thought, hey, allowing this to happen would be really great because then we can spend loads of money on giant robot death machines, then that is bonkers. But has anyone actually polled a question that would distinguish between cock up and conspiracy?

[KukriKhan]

I don't presume to speak for all Americans, although I think I stand a better-than-even chance of doing so, statistically.

We start from the premise of gov't being a grudgingly necessary evil, and try to build, then tweak, automatic systems for correcting faults. Hence our reliance on a written, general language, Constitution.

We've seen, especially at the local level, conspiracy, corruption, and incompetence being proved true, over and over again. Imagining such bad things happening at the federal level is not too huge a stretch.

We hate the Post Office, but trust our mailman. We hate the Congress, but support our individual rep's. We automatically mistrust anybody who can and does raise the 200 mln bucks required of other people's money, to mount and win a presidential campaign, but support the probably corrupt bastard in a crisis.

It's a weird (to outsiders) combination of jaundiced cynicism, tempered by an illogical hope for the future; because we've also seen (some) inspired leadership, and we harbor the secret, usually unspoken, assurance that: if things go really wrong, we the people - Joe Sixpack, Susie Homemaker & William (the Wall St) Broker III - will put things aright. Kind of Flight 93 (where the passengers took control on 9-11), writ large.

[Adrian II]

But has anyone actually polled a question that would distinguish between cock up and conspiracy?Not that I know of.

And you're right, it makes you wonder if the large part of the American public appearing in those polls actually subscribes to any conspiracies at all, or merely to the notion that there was a huge cock up, followed by a massive attempt by many individuals and institutions involved to cover their inferior dorsal region. The latter is probably more relevant than the former: a terrorist attack leaves 3000 dead and nobody gets fired. It is too wild an assumption that that's what they mean when they tick off that 'cover up' box on the Zogby form?

Remember the sigh of relief that went through the hall when Clarke said before the Commission: 'I apologise to the American people because your government failed you and I failed you.'

[Beirut]

After watching 60 Minutes last night and nearly having an asthma attack from the incredible lies, fraud, theft, greed, and manipulation going on between the drug companies, Congress, and the White House, and then hearing it's all legal...

Buddy, I'll believe just about anything.

[Lemur]

And you're right, it makes you wonder if the large part of the American public appearing in those polls actually subscribes to any conspiracies at all, or merely to the notion that there was a huge cock up, followed by a massive attempt by many individuals and institutions involved to cover their inferior dorsal region. The latter is probably more relevant than the former: a terrorist attack leaves 3000 dead and nobody gets fired.
Not only did nobody get fired, but some of the people at the tops of the failing agencies got themselves Presidential Medals of Freedom. Woot!

Given the large numbers cited by Zogby, I think your scenario is correct. Honestly, I don't think more than 1%-3% of Americans believe in Freemasons with space lasers using robot planes to zap the twin towers and teleporting Saudis to the ghost of the Lusitania before the elves bring the through the rainbow threshold to unicorn-land, and all of it to the benefit of the Zionists and Halliburton (who are, of course, one and the same).

Huge mess followed by copious, irresponsible ass-coverage, that sounds about right.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Good comments.

Americans do share a general sense of skepticism about the machinery of government -- while placing a surpisingly level of faith and support in their own individual representative.

Sadly, many Americans are profoundly ignorant of political history and history in general (too busy with other things to pay it much mind, not a lack of brains). This leaves them open to being swayed by plausible (and interestingly told) scenarios about what "really" happened. We are also convinced of the amazing capabilities of technology to accomplish just about anything -- after all, someone zaps our eyes with a laser and we never need glasses again; we spend half-an-hour downloadling MP3 files and have more music in our player (itself the size of a deck of cards) than we can listen to in a week's casual listening; our great grandmom's died from breast cancer but now we are angry if it a course of chemo is prescribed as a precaution after the successful operation.

This makes a scenario wherein someone smart wielding technology seems plausible -- more plausible than motivated box-cutter knifemen stealing planes.

A knowledge of history teaches that conspiracies are difficult to pull off; that technology craps out at bad times; that the simple answer is correct a surprising percentage of the time; and that lot's of unquantified influences and unintended consequences play a role in what happens.

A majority of our population cannot name the current vice president, cannot name all three of their Congressional representatives, cannot name 5 members of the cabinet, cannot correctly label a majority of the countries on an unlabeled world map, and cannot even tell you -- correctly -- how they are being taxed to pay for the government of which they complain.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it definitely sets you up to be a poor consumer of information. Caveat Emptor.

[Ice]

Americans are certainly more robust individualists than the rest of us, possibly with the exception of the French. We distrust a particular government, a party or a ruling president or prime minister, whereas many Americans distrust government as such, the apparatus itself, the machinery of government if you will. From that perspective, I could understand if a large number of Americans thought the 9/11 commission report was insufficient.

But to alledge a cover-up, implying that all or most of Congress as well as all or most officials and civil servants have been actively and collectively manipulating the facts, seems a bit far-fetched.

Spot on, my friend. Exactly my personal thoughts.

[Adrian II]

A majority of our population cannot name the current vice president, cannot name all three of their Congressional representatives, cannot name 5 members of the cabinet, cannot correctly label a majority of the countries on an unlabeled world map, and cannot even tell you -- correctly -- how they are being taxed to pay for the government of which they complain.Same in other democracies. Exactly the same.

I have a lingering suspicion. I think the familiar graphs and stats about 'ignorant' Americans that are often trotted out in discussions actually tell us something else: that Americans are better at documenting their national stupidity than other peoples. They point to a merit, rather than a shortcoming.

[drone]

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

With the wonderful benefit of hindsight, I'm pretty sure the current administration lacks the competence to pull of a conspiracy of this magnitude and keep it quiet. That being said, they have used the resulting feelings of Fear to the utmost to consolidate power, advance their agenda, and violate personal liberties.

As to the event itself, airline security was a complete joke before 9/11. I'm surprised it took so long for something to happen. And even Clancy predicted the use of a jetliner as a weapon. ~:rolleyes:

[Grey_Fox]

And even Clancy predicted the use of a jetliner as a weapon.

So did Dale Brown.

[Spetulhu]

Trouble is knowing what they meant by 'and consciously failed to act'. If they mean they think the government had the info necessary to tell some sort of attack like 9/11 was about to happen, and misjudged it in a way that was worse than merely negligent, well, its a point of view. Not one I share, but maybe there is some magic thinking going on here, and they find it less uncomfortable to believe the government had the info and messed up, than to believe that the government didn't even have the info.

If they also think that, having made that misjudgement, the misjudgement is now being furiously covered up, then that bit strikes me as a not unlikely scenario on past showings. (Granted the original misjudgement).


The one conspiracy theory I find even remotely believable is the one where the gov't was monitoring the terrorists but allowed them to move about so they could be arrested with a smoking gun. Trying to blow up the WTC once again would be good enough. A car bombing would be horrible enough to get the citizenry behind some tough measures. They don't have a supply of explosives yet so they're not going to do anything, right? What's this? They're flying off to California? Let them, that'll show those liberal hippies that their ideas are wrong when the terrorists blow up a school bus.

And then the unthinkable happened. They weren't flying off to get explosives and blow up a house or car, they took the planes as weapons. A pretty good reason for the gov't to cover up any previous involvement.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The one conspiracy theory I find even remotely believable is the one where the gov't was monitoring the terrorists but allowed them to move about so they could be arrested with a smoking gun. Trying to blow up the WTC once again would be good enough. A car bombing would be horrible enough to get the citizenry behind some tough measures. They don't have a supply of explosives yet so they're not going to do anything, right? What's this? They're flying off to California? Let them, that'll show those liberal hippies that their ideas are wrong when the terrorists blow up a school bus.

And then the unthinkable happened. They weren't flying off to get explosives and blow up a house or car, they took the planes as weapons. A pretty good reason for the gov't to cover up any previous involvement.

Again, incredibly unlikely. If the security services had observed them seriously, they would have spotted the flying lessons and suchlike. Preparing for a truck bombing is a lot different from hijacking aircraft.

I think people forget how incredibly fortunate the terrorists were in their endeavour. Thousands of things could and should have gone wrong, and the failure to join the dots by intelligence services was just one of them. Co-ordinating such an attack had a tiny chance of actually being pulled off.

[Devastatin Dave]

Americans are certainly more robust individualists than the rest of us, possibly with the exception of the French. We distrust a particular government, a party or a ruling president or prime minister, whereas many Americans distrust government as such, the apparatus itself, the machinery of government if you will. From that perspective, I could understand if a large number of Americans thought the 9/11 commission report was insufficient.

But to alledge a cover-up, implying that all or most of Congress as well as all or most officials and civil servants have been actively and collectively manipulating the facts, seems a bit far-fetched.
Wow, good post.:2thumbsup:

[lancelot]

I think there are too many unanswered questions on the whole 9/11 story.

The already mentioned- no one got canned- Bush presides over the worst security breach in US history, yet Clinton gets impeached for lying about a quicky with his secretary...if that aint conspiracy its sure as hell frakkin odd government!

I recall reading of one US government official who was quoted pre- 9/11 (it escapes me how at the mo- I'll try and look it up) saying that the US needed a 'new pearl harbor' to get the US public behind plans to pursue middle-eastern affairs...make what you will.

Plus the sheer volume of questions that are seemingly unanswered onver 9/11...demolition experts claiming the fall was a textbook demolitions example of dropping a building, interceptors being order not to fly at anywhere near top speed to reach wayward planes, differing reports of the size of aircraft that hit the pentagon, experts claining that it would take a bunker busting missile to do the extent of the damage done to the pentagon etc etc; definately makes me wonder.

I dunno, seems very fishy to me.

[Adrian II]

I think there are too many unanswered questions on the whole 9/11 story.You will find the answer to many of those questions in the 9/11 commission report. And if you really think the demolition crowd are onto something, you should also look into the refutation of many of their claims on the Department of State (http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Sep/16-241966.html)website.

Of course there are lots of loose ends and painful preceding chapters to the episode (Clinton's negligence, Bush's ties to the Bin ladens, etcetera) but they don't add up to anything more than white noise and cock ups.

EDIT
I think the best production to date of the demolition crowd is this video: 9/11 Mysteries (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911+mysteries)

I watched it carefully and not for a moment was I convinced that those buildings were professionally demolished. Time and again they show you the images of the Twin Towers from all sides, and every time you see the buildings' structures collapse at the precise point of impact of the planes, and then falling in on themselves in 'pancake-fashion', each floor bringing down the one below it. Actually, to me this video is the best proof that it wasn't controlled demolition that brought those buildings down.

[Fisherking]

I just love this lot of rot. The left fluctuating between Bush being a supper mastermind and can't pour pee out of a boot with the instructions printed on the bottom.

What is it going to be? Such a conspiracy requires most every government employ to be disloyal to his country and hold Bush as savior of the world. Not very likely now is it.:wall:

Get a grip USA!:smash:

[Adrian II]

I just love this lot of rot. The left fluctuating between Bush being a supper mastermind and can't pour pee out of a boot with the instructions printed on the bottom.It's not a left-wing issue, it's a nut-wing issue. The most important figure in the conspiracy movement is a Mormon, professor of Physics Steven Jones, formerly with Brigham Young University in Utah, who is a Republican and a former Bush-voter.

Every nation has it's nut-wing. You want to exchange your 5% of fruitcakes against our 5% of Dutch fruitcakes? Please do, at least yours aren't totally boring all the time.

[Xiahou]

Not only did nobody get fired, but some of the people at the tops of the failing agencies got themselves Presidential Medals of Freedom. Woot!That's standard government operating procedure isnt it? The bigger a failure you are, the more funding and recognition you get. It's a wonder anything gets done.

[Strike For The South]

To be fair I hate congress and my representative. They should be helping the people and making our lives better not spending 4 years having favors called in. Kinky wouldve been good. We need more like him Visonaries who are willing to turn the system on its head. We need more protests and boycotts. Instead of writing your congresman. Find him and break his knees. If you want to be a polotican you should be uncourroptable you are a servant to the american peolple putting our intrests ahead of yours.

[Lemur]

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Words to live by, drone, words to live by.

[Proletariat]

To be fair I hate congress and my representative. *snip* We need more protests and boycotts. Instead of writing your congresman. Find him and break his knees.

Now you're sounding more like a French man. Spending a little too much time with Louis, eh?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

"Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act"

This doesn't imply any consipiracy. What I remember hearing on the news at the time was "did the government know an attack was planned?" and something about lack of communication and bearacracy resulting in nothing being persued. I'm sure half of Americans believe the government is incompetant enough to do that.

[Strike For The South]

Now you're sounding more like a French man. Spending a little too much time with Louis, eh?

Probably